Norman Kreutz Interview

Hello and welcome to the Global Skiing Podcast. This is Tom Gellie, and today I'm interviewing one of my old mentors and good friend Norman Kreutz from Canada. So just to give you a bit of a background on Norm, Norm is a CSIA Level 4, CSCF Level 3, Level 4 Course Conductor, he's a Mountain Guide Level 1, Director of Snow Sports at the Silver Star Mountain Resort, and that's since 2002, so long stint there. He is a CSIA Course Director for 14 years, was a member of the demo team, the CSIA member— uh, CSIA demo team from 1988 to 2002. Uh, he's also been the assistant demo team coach, um, through the 3 years leading up to 2002, and he's also a CSIA Technical Committee member for the CSIA. So, and you, that was from 1985 to 2010. So have I kind of fitted that long, long list of credentials in there, Norm?

Yeah, well, hi Tom. Yes, you have. Sure makes me feel kind of old. I've been in the business for quite some time. It doesn't feel that long, but obviously I have been around for quite, quite a while and I really enjoy the business.

Yeah, well, I just wanted to say thanks for coming on the show and calling in from Canada. And yeah, for those out there that don't know you, I mean, when I first started ski instructing back in 2005, I just remember this really strong leader of the ski school, which was yourself. Sort of having a huge influence on me, you know, wanting to take this on as a career. Because obviously I had pressure back home from parents, you know, "When are you going to go to university?" And I came over to SilverStar and found SilverStar and was really impressed with how the ski school was run and the way you run things. So yeah, from my point of view, that's— I just wanted to let you know. That's the impression you gave me. So would you give us a bit of a background on your experience and sort of how you got into skiing?

Well, first of all, thanks very much, Tom, for even inviting me. You know, I feel that I'm in amongst a bunch of elite people that you are interviewing. And you know, my career, if I look at the way you kind of started, my career was very similar. Similar to this. I was just a young ski racer. I come from a relatively poor family. My parents couldn't really afford to allow me to ski race. They couldn't afford to send me to a lot of races. Ski racing is a difficult thing to do here in Canada. Growing up in Thunder Bay, Ontario, it's in the middle of Canada, kind of away from the mountains and away from the ski scene a whole bunch. So after I did ski race a little bit, I ended up getting into the coaching side of things because of financial reasons more than anything. And I really enjoyed working with the kids and moving forward. And I too was supposed to go to university and my parents were trying to push me to go towards university. However, I took a year off and I went out west back in 1979 to try and see whether I wanted to maybe ski for a little while and then go back to university. Well, 1979 was the year and I never ever did go back to school, and so I only have high school education. My education really has been the ski, ski industry, the ski business, and ski teaching in, in specifics has, has really been my schooling all through the years. So, uh, what So once I ended up going out west, I ended up getting my Level 2 instructors and I worked my way through the system fairly quickly. And in 1983, I was able to obtain my Level 4 and as soon as I worked Level 4 or got my Level 4, I started to work on some courses as well. And I really noticed that I just had a real zest to teach others, first of all, the passion that I have for the sport. And second of all, that it— you need to understand skiing in order to teach skiing. And that's something that I wanted to pass along to a lot of people, is that you can be the best guest service person out there, but if you have nothing to teach, you're not really fulfilling the guests' expectations to improve. So that, that's really what I wanted to try to do and work towards. Towards that. So I was in Banff for 3 years, 4 years, '79 to '83-'84 season. And Norm Carrera, who owned, was a part owner in Sunshine Village, they purchased Silver Star at the time. And Norm gave me a call in the summer of that summer and said, would you like to come and be the assistant snow sports school director out at Silver Star? And he offered me what I thought was a lot of money at the time, and I kind of jumped I jumped at the chance because it was a pretty good offer. So I ended up going out to Silver Star, and as you know, the Okanagan Valley, when it comes to snow quality, the people, it is one of the nicest places in the world to be as far as the snow quality is concerned. And so I spent 3 years there working within the snow sports school and Martin Olson, who was one of my mentors, along with a number of others, but Martin was the Western Course Director for the Canadian Ski Instructors Alliance. He ended up getting in an airplane accident and got hurt fairly badly and realized that he couldn't ski much anymore, so he ended up asking me if I would like to take over the job of being Western Course Director for the Canadian Ski Instructors Alliance. And, you know, my passions really fell into that category and I'd love to take over. He mentored me all through that and for 14 years that's what I did. I worked for the CSIA, year-round position, and I taught a lot of courses in my time. In 2002, I got two boys, Alex and Matthew, and my wife Debbie said, you know, I'm raising the boys on my own and it would be really nice if you, you settled down back here in Vernon and up at Silver Star. And the Schumann family from Australia had just purchased the Silver Star and they asked me if I'd like to run the snow sports school there. So I took over as the snow sports school director or director of snow sports at Silver Star back in 2002. So yeah, I kind of came around and, you know, settled back into the place that I I really have called home all these years.

And so just in here, a bit of info you've given me, you've spent a few summers in the Southern Hemisphere?

Yeah, so back in 1982 I ended up going down to New Zealand. That was a bit of a, really a bit of a soul-searching mission. I was a little bit afraid of going down there because I really didn't know what was happening but a really good friend of mine from Banff, Link Metcalf, had gone down there the year before and he asked me if I would like to go back to Broken River. And Broken River is a little club field just outside of Christchurch. It's along the same mountain range as Mount Hutt. You've got Mount Hutt, Porter Heights, Mount Cheeseman, Broken River, and Craigieburn. They're all along the same mountain range there. And it's a little club field. There's a few huts out up on the hill. Slept about maybe 70 people for a ski week. People would come up for the ski week from all over the place, and then we would end up teaching skiing to those ski weekers. There was no grooming, it's all rope toes. It was pretty rustic, and I really enjoyed that side of it. And so you talked in whatever was on the ground, whatever nature brought you. And the mountain became a real big mogul field through, through the year. If we didn't get much snow, the moguls would just get bigger and bigger. But we'd get, we'd get beginners from Wellington coming down, and you'd have to teach them how to get on a rope tow. You'd sandwich them between each other and pull them up the rope tow, and then they'd be skiing bumps right away in a nice wedge position. So I mentioned there in the note that I sent to you that I think my skiing really took off because I went to New Zealand and I had to teach and I had to ski in whatever conditions there were. So from a technical standpoint, I had to make sure that my feet were in the right spot at all times and, you know, I found it really, really propelled my skiing to the next level.

And in that stage, where were you? Were you Level 4 already by that stage?

I, I was a Level 3, and the next year that I went back, I ended up having my Level 4. So, uh, the first summer was just a Level 3, and then the next time I came back, I was a Level 4. So, yeah, like I say, um, it really helped me in the exam situation because I loved skiing off-piste. Growing up in Thunder Bay, we never had a lot of bumps, and if we did have them, they were hard, icy Volkswagen-sized bumps, but the off-piste side of things, which we didn't have in Eastern Canada, it really kind of propelled me in Western Canada and in New Zealand in particular. So I really enjoyed it a lot.

So perhaps a good message in there for people trying to maybe get that top level to come down and ski some of the stuff we get in Australia and New Zealand.

Oh, it absolutely makes you a fantastic skier. When you have to toy with your base of support and move your feet around so that you can balance yourself and try and link turns together there, you know, the harder the conditions, the better it is. You're just kind of pushing yourself as you move along.

Yeah, excellent. So I'm not sure if you've heard of a book called The Talent Code. But basically it sort of explains that genes don't necessarily dictate whether someone is going to be a good skier. A lot of it has to do with repetition, the environment they're placed in, practice of a skill, that kind of, you know, 10,000 hours type idea. What's your sort of thoughts on that, you know, people are born as a great skier, or can people start from perhaps not a great skiing background and develop that? What's your thoughts?

Well, I think that you have both. You do have some natural athletes where they've got cat-like reflexes, they know what to do with their feet to balance themselves properly, they're very aware of what their body position does. But I've also, through my career, have met and been mentored by a number of people that learn in a different way. And just as you say, you know, it takes 10,000 hours or 28 straight days of total repetition to try and change certain motor patterns. And people have become very, very successful in imprinting these motor patterns into themselves, not just through genetics, but through repetition. I remember, you know, I was never very good at doing an exercise that we call spiece. So when I was racing, you know, my coach at the time, Keith Robinson, who is a master coach with the Canadian Ski Coaches Federation, he said, we got to practice this. You got to practice this a whole bunch. And I lived out in the country. We had a fairly big property out in the country and So I would go and pack the snow down and nice gentle slope in the backyard and I would practice it and practice it and Keith would try to make us do spese all the way down this green run called the Gold and it was probably a kilometer in length. It was a fairly lengthy, you know, and we would go until you got tired and then you stopped and then you went again. And an exercise such as that to this day I feel I can still do that because I ended up just repeating it over and over and over again. It helped with so much in skiing. You know, when we're jumping, so many people try to jump with their upper body, and here it made you realize that the ankle joint is such an important joint in skiing that you have to have mobility, and all the quickness that you have in your skiing really comes right from the foot level and through through the ankle and, you know, Spies was a fantastic piece that way. And another situation would be Ladd Snowsell, who was in charge of Banff Club Ski when I went out to Banff. He was my mentor there. He was my ski school director. He did the sessions for me. And Ladd is a— he's a great athlete, but admittedly he is not— he's not a natural athlete and he has to do everything kind of in a step. Step-by-step process. And there, there's a man that was able to do that kind of thing, um, step by step, and he ended up making the demo team. He was one of the smoothest skiers, uh, that, that we had out there. It was a bit mechanical. It wasn't as, uh, easy for him as it was for, for some of the other mentors that I've had through my skiing career. But, uh, there's, there's someone that put a lot of time and effort into each and every maneuver, that he became a really good skier as well.

So when I was sort of thinking about that question, I almost specifically was thinking about your son. So I guess I was thinking, what, like, can you comment on that side of things? Because I know your son, uh, is it just recently he decided to not pursue ski racing and go into golf, is that right?

That's correct, yeah. My youngest son, Matthew.

He was very, very good.

Yeah, well, both my sons, Alexander as well, they made it up to just shy of BC ski team level. And Matthew, he had all the new gear in front of him and he was ready to move towards the BC ski team and he ended up deciding that he wanted to pursue golf because he's a very good golfer as well. But, you know, golf is a sport where it is repetition. You have to— I think I've mentioned this to a number of people— practice doesn't necessarily make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. So the repetition is fine and dandy and you can keep on doing it, but if you're repeating things in the wrong way, you're just imprinting the wrong message into the brain as well. So when you are practicing and when you are working towards things, you have to have someone there to observe or make sure that you get some video done of yourself so that you can see whether you're doing it correctly or not. And my kids, you know, as far as their skiing career, the imprinting was just following Dad or following Mom. Mom's also a very good and imprinting the motor patterns that the parents had and working with that. And, you know, my good buddy and your good buddy Steve Smart was their coach all the way through their ski racing career, and I attribute a lot of their successes and their talents for skiing in what Steve did. And Steve, he did a lot of that where they imprinted the correct way motor patterns through repetition over and over and over again. I'm a strong believer in doing that. If I go back just back to 1983, this is a long time ago, but the 1983 Canadian Interski team, the nickname for them was the Canadian Sideslip Team. And André Schwartz was the coach of the team. From '79 to '83, we went through a real rebuilding here with the Canadian Ski Instructors Alliance from a base of rotation to a base of counter-rotation. And André would end up having the demo team members just side-slipping. All they could do was side-slip and try and feel that their legs are turning against their body and creating a little bit of separation and counter-rotation. And he wouldn't even let them make a turn at the end of the side slip. They would actually have to do a kick turn and then side slip the other way because he was afraid that when they, they turned, they would imprint that rotation back into them.

Right.

So, um, you know, having grown up with all of those mentors, uh, that's what I did a lot of as well growing up and working in the ski industry. I did a lot of side slip, a lot of braquage, A lot of that kind of stuff to try and get the legs to do the turning as opposed to the upper body leading the turn.

A lot of perfect practice, not just practice.

Perfect practice, yeah, exactly.

Excellent. And so with someone like Matthew and Alex, those younger people, you know, it's often difficult to keep them engaged, you know, because obviously they're wanting to, you play and all that sort of stuff. So how do you find like other coaches, successful coaches, maybe Steve was, you know, were there ways, tactics that he was able to get this really good imprinting going but still keep it fun so they didn't lose interest?

I think that one of the biggest things when you're trying to teach the young people, and my kids were a good example, is that make sure that we have a variety of ways to imprint so that it doesn't become monotonous and fatiguing for them mentally. We have to try to keep their minds sharp to try to imprint that. And something that Steve and I did with our children is that we did try to imprint the proper technique into them, but in a variety of situations. So trying to use terrain as, as the tactic to develop their skills. So instead of being on the flats trying to make the perfect turn all the time, we'd go off in the trees or in the bumps or in the powder and use a variety of different situations while still trying to attain the same goal, the same feelings in everyone, but just making it a whole bunch of fun. Going into the terrain park, we would do the same thing, you know. As much as you hate as a ski racing dad to watch your kids sliding on boxes and dulling their skis, but there's a lot of things that you can do within the terrain park that is going to imprint the proper motor patterns into kids as well and give them the right feelings that way. So I think that variety is a big thing. I hate seeing the kids every single day just running gates, running gates, running gates. They've got to have a little bit more variety to it.

Yeah, yeah, good point. So then on to the sort of older people or instructors or whatever, running a ski school and for doing that for many years and running many, uh, courses, like, do you have a particular way you like to run say, you know, say you had a 2-3 hour training session with a group of instructors, how do you like to sort of plan it out and progress it? Are there a couple of good key things that you would, you know, mention for us?

Well, you know, I have been doing it for a long time and I have to say, having a German background, I was a bit autocratic. Initially when I did this. You do it this way and that was the only way to do it. But as I've grown a little bit older, I really want the learner, whether it's a client or whether it's Snow Sports School, to take ownership of their own learning. So when we present things, we really want to try to present things in such a way that when they walk away, they know what to do, what kind of feeling they need to have in order to make those improvements in themselves. So I don't have to be there, a trainer doesn't necessarily have to be there every single minute of the day. They can start to do some things on their own and start to analyze themselves just a tiny bit more as well. In our training at Silver Star, we have training going on in the afternoons. We usually go out for a ski in the morning. The morning has very little technical content. It's more of a team-building type, type thing. In the afternoons, when we do have a little bit more time, we start to work on things. And as I've mentioned before, basics is something that, that you have to work on. So, you know, some of us don't enjoy doing the basics, but if you have a good foundation and work on those basics, it will follow you through all of your skiing types, whether you're skiing slow or fast, skiing bumps or skiing powder, those basics will always show up, and any weaknesses that you have within those basics, they'll end up showing up. So I try to work hard hard on the skills that we call here in the CSIA. I try to work hard on stance issues, making sure, you know, I've been brought up through a system back in '83. Again, we called it movement and motion, and movement and motion was a concept of, of how people ski, how to look at skiing, and it deals with two components. One is the basis support, which in our case is the feet and could be the skis as well, but we, we try to bring it as close to just being the feet as possible. And the other one being the center of mass or center of gravity. And we manipulate the base of support to try and guide the center of mass down the slope in as uninterrupted a fashion as we possibly can. So we have to do bending and stretching of the legs. We have to edge the skis, we have to, have to do a multitude of different things in order to guide that center of mass down the slope. So when I'm teaching someone, I'm really working hard on them trying to feel how their feet are in relationship to their center of mass for whatever type of turn that we're doing, whether it's braking turns, trying to slow myself down, or whether it's a carving turn where I'm trying to actually speed myself up. What is that relationship that we have with the base of support and the center of mass? So a lot of the sessions that we do, they're not so much technically based, but they're a lot on feelings and sensations that people have and trying to understand, you know, what I need to do to to pronate the foot inside the boot, what that feeling is like, where my foot should be in the arc so that my center of mass is supported nicely. Is my center of mass rising and falling a whole bunch through the turn, or do I want to flatten out the trajectory that the center of mass has? So, those are the kinds of things that we play around with a whole bunch, and obviously Obviously you have tools, you have tactics, you have turn shapes, you have situations at Silver Star that we use to try to develop that.

Yeah, great. So you've got me intrigued.

What—

so if you like to use feelings a lot, what are you currently, when you go out on snow, what are some feelings you're playing with?

Well, you know, what I try to feel when I'm skiing is I really do try to feel that skiing to me is like a dance, not a robotic dance. It's a very— you know, my parents were great dancers. They just flowed on the dance floor. And when my dad was still alive and mom, you know, it was amazing just to watch them do that. And skiing to me is like that as well, whereas what I want to do is I want to flow down, down the slope. It's almost like, like water running down, down the slope. I'm trying to not interrupt that flow at all, so I'm trying to edge the ski as early as, as possible in the turn so that I feel some grip, and then I am in control of my destiny down the slope. So to answer your question there, Tom, these days what I am trying to do, and I think ski design, modern ski design has helped this a whole bunch, is that I try to pronate the foot quite early in the turn to try to develop some grip. And when I talk about pronating, as you pronate the foot inside the boot, I feel that there's maybe some pressure on the ball of the foot initially, that we have a little bit of shin contact in the front of the boot. You feel some pronation, you feel some grip, and then as the base of support gets skied out and the center mass moves to the inside of the arc, I try to move my ski onto its sidewall as much as I possibly can for the situation that I'm skiing. So I'm trying to tip the ski over as much as possible so that the ski starts to bend and arc around my foot and I can control the arc that the ski is going to make throughout the turn.

As—

keep going. Sorry, yep. You go, you go. As pressure builds, what I try to do as well is I've never been a big advocate of pressing on the ski. I hear many instructors say, I want you to press on the ski or push on the ski. I try to allow the ski to push on me. I find if something is pushing on me, I can either resist it or I can succumb to that pressure a little bit more easily, and then I can actually feel that I can control pressure better that way. If I'm pressing on something, and in skiing, the likelihood of your ski releasing its edge and releasing the grip on the snow is relatively high. This year especially, we haven't had much snow. We've had very difficult, hard conditions, and if we press too hard, sometimes that ski just breaks loose, and I, I have a tough time reacting to that. So I want to try and pronate the foot, get the ski on edge, tip it over as much as possible, try to develop pressure on the ski and then either succumb to that pressure or resist that pressure, however the situation would allow for. The transition from one turn to the next, you know, turning for me is not making an arc on one side of the body and an arc on the other, it's that linking that is, is so crucial. How do I link those two? So trying to ski from fall line into the new fall line, that to me is turning. That's said, that, that is the key. How do I do that? So what I have to try to do is I have to steer my, my skis back underneath. Or in the modern era, if I'm on a slalom ski, that the ski does a lot of that turning for me. If I have it on, on the edge, I don't really have to input a lot of extra turning effort into the ski. But as that ski comes underneath, I now have to watch how much my center of mass is going to be lifted up and over top. And you can imagine in the apex of the turn, your bum is probably fairly close to the snow if you're trying to put the ski up on its sidewall. Well, your bum and center of mass for that matter will end up rising in between the turns somewhat. But I want to try to minimize that, that rising. The more I go up, the less pressure I can build early in the next turn. So I have to succumb to that pressure, absorb it a little bit, and then start to pronate the, the new foot and get the ski back on edge. So I'm trying to, to make sure that the center of mass is still rising and falling a little bit, so there's some life in our skiing, but I'm I'm minimizing the amount that it's rising and falling these days, especially with the modern equipment.

Is that a— I mean, I know in a way, is it a newer type of focus for you, that less of an up?

Oh, definitely. You know, in the old days when we were skiing on 205s and 203s for slalom skis and they were 45, 50-meter radius skis, you had to move a whole bunch because there was a physical effort to try and turn the ski. It was much more difficult just to put it on edge and hope that it comes around. But with modern ski technology now, there's less effort to, to have to actually turn the ski. And our whole focus— and in the Snow Sports School, I've really been pushing this as well, right from the very beginner level— instead of talking so much about turning the leg against the body. We talk about edging and creating some grip and, and having the skis turn, turn for them, because there's assistance that, that has been given to us there, and we want to try to use that. So even at a beginner level, in a wedge position, we, we talk strongly about trying to develop grip. So that pronation, that tightening of the muscles feeling the muscles along the leg tighten up and feel that grip and steer the ski across the hill. That's really important for us at this point in time. Yeah. I have to say, Tom, like, you know, I am a little bit older. I'll be 56 this year. The strength is not the way it used to be. So, you know, we have to be careful that I'm not just absorbing all the energy all the time and skiing being in a really bent position for the older folks, we might just have to change the focus a little bit there so that the skeletal structure is aiding holding them up and not so much muscular effort is used there as well. So, you know, going from children to an older person, we have to just make sure that we find a nice balance in there. You know, if the older person needs to rise a little bit in between the turns, then allow them to rise because it'd be too fatiguing to, you know, bend as much as you see Ted Ligety and Marcel Hirscher do and so on and so forth. You couldn't be able to do a nice long run down Holy Smokes at Silver Star doing that the whole way down, right? You'd have to stop and take a break.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So then, if you, with this focus, if you got back on a longer ski, even almost a straight ski, or, you know, the modern GS now, do you still feel that that is really important if you're trying to perform at the highest level, that same principle of, you know, the center of mass, maybe just matching the amount you need to get early edge, so not coming up too much but be able to get early edge and pressure. Do you feel that's still the same?

Yeah, you know, the modern skis, even though, you know, the modern GS skis, they're closer to 35-40 meter radius, the skis that we were skiing on way back when, they were more 50-55 meter radius. They didn't even have as much sidecut as those skis these skis do. But, um, depending on where you are on the slope, if it's a really steep slope and there's a lot of offset and you've got to try to get the ski around, you see what, what the World Cuppers are doing. They are doing a little skivet type, type turn. They are making that move. There is a definitely a little bit more of an up movement. Those athletes are so powerful these days. Everyone is so strong that they just wait till the right moment and then they hammer on the edge and the impulse is relatively short again. But as soon as the slope starts to flatten out a little bit, I, I think that their idea is still to try and get that ski over on edge as much as they possibly can so that the ski starts to bend, and all of a sudden that 35-meter ski becomes a 20-meter ski. 76-meter ski because it's bent so much, then that arc is still able to, to be created exactly the way we would on a pair of slalom skis for you and I to get that, that same sensation. Yeah, you know, with my boys racing, I, I've gotten on— I've been on their GS skis a number of times and it feels like I'm going back in time. You cannot rely on the sidecut, you have work hard to make the ski actually work for you. And tipping it over, getting the tip to engage, uh, you can't be in the back seat with those puppies because they're going to end up, you know, going straight on you. So you better be centered, a little bit of pressure onto the shovel of the ski, and make sure that you are tipping it over as far as it possibly can. And they'll still make some really nice arcs for you.

And is there anything, back on the feelings, do you ever like kind of focus above like the pelvis or sort of are you mostly focused sort of foot, ankle, knee, hip? Like are there any times you've played around with sort of, you know, upper back or shoulders or head like Fritz sort of has?

Yeah, I think that you have to, you know, in the initial stages of making sure that you're balanced properly on the ski, I have a couple of rules that I try to remind myself at all times. I think of my collarbone being kind of lined up over my kneecap at all times, so whether I'm bending a whole bunch or whether I'm standing up, so that I feel like I'm balanced in a cylinder, you know, if the cylinder was straight up off the middle of the ski, I bend inside that cylinder and I stand up inside that that cylinder. So 4.5, there's not a ton of play there, but I'm kind of working within that cylinder. And I try to make sure that everyone does that. I think of my elbows and my arms being relaxed but out in front of me, visual. I can see them out of the corner of my eye. As soon as we start to lose a little bit of the hand positioning and so on and so forth, it affects what happens happens down below. So yes, I still work on those things. You know, an important one, and I know that one of your other podcasts here, Fritz, talks about it as well, but I've mentioned it to a number of people, and funny enough, today I'm teaching a Level 2 course up at the hill, and we're working on trying to develop some skiers. And you know, your head needs to stay level. Your equilibrium is your middle ear, if your head is bobbing around and moving from side to side, it's hard for all of those other skills and balance issues to be there. So, you know, today I had two fellows there where, you know, I just said, think of your goggles having water halfway up the goggles, water in them, and I want you to try and keep that water level. Don't tip it over into one eye or the other eye. Think of a spirit level being right in front of you and keeping that bubble in between the lines. That makes a huge difference and we got instantaneous results. I didn't talk about feet, I didn't talk about anything else, I just tried to talk about trying to keep the head level and sure enough we got a little bit of angulation, we ended up getting some separation. All of those things started to come together. Together because they weren't skiing with their head. And you see that with so many public skiers. The first thing that goes into the turn is they dive their head into the turn.

Yeah, yeah, excellent. That's cool that it happened today. So you've a keen interest in the World Cup. I know a couple of times when I've visited, we've sort of sat in your office and watched Marcel Hirscher latest run or Alexi Pantoja or something like that. Yeah, I know it might be going back over what we've discussed, but are there any other things you see in, you know, currently the best World Cup skiers?

You know, I do have a— I think that if you want to become the best, you have to look at the best to try to figure out what they're doing. And so you have to model yourself after someone. And, uh, and that's what I've, I've done throughout my, my skiing career. Uh, back in 1988, I had the pleasure of skiing with Ingemar Stenmark. And, uh, you know, at the time, Ingemar, uh, he, he was the best. He was just kind of on the verge of retiring. He was still racing a little bit here and there. But, uh, I spent an entire day at the Blackcomb with him and, and just skied. And, um, you know, just watching him and the movement patterns that he had and the discussing balance and so on. And he'd mention little things to us like ski between the bindings. And to the layman, that probably doesn't mean a darn thing, but, uh, really made sense to me. And I always think back to that as well. Ski between the bindings. Think that you've got a really short ski on so that you're not leveraging yourself on the front or the back of the ski and working on those kinds of things. So Right from the get-go, yes, the World Cuppers have been in, and these days watching them, what amazes me is how big of angles that they can actually create. So number one is that you've got to be physically fit, you have to be flexible, and these are important factors. So if I would say something to an instructor working towards their next level, just going skiing isn't going to do it for you. You better hit the gym in the off-season, become strong, make sure that your legs are powerful, that you stay flexible, especially in the hip areas, and be in tune with your body because when I watch someone like Neureiter skiing down the slope, he is so in tune with what his body is doing and and what's going to happen when he decides to throw his feet out, because he is a little bit out of balance, but he knows exactly why and where he's throwing his feet to recover and get back into balance. So, you know, the biggest thing in the World Cup, and that's what I try to do when I'm on that kind of ski, is I try to create some big angles. So get the hip close to the snow, you know, uh try to develop as much angulation as is possible without losing too much balance, right? And think of inclination as balance and angulation as a body position. And so, you know, when I'm skiing and taking this from a World Cupper, I see how they just move so much to the inside inside of the turn, and then as the ski starts to grip because they've inclined inside the turn, they keep turning their legs, keep the skis keep turning for them. They, they ski into an angulated position which helps to increase the edge angle even more, and then they can exit from the turn there. So that's what really intrigues me, and, and how quickly they can do it. But you need You need to be powerful, you need to be in shape in order to do that, otherwise you're going to hurt yourself.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely agree with that. So then on to equipment, skis and boots and that sort of stuff. How important do you think the equipment is for people?

I think it's key. It's pretty hard for you to try to to do a lot of the things that we ask our students of. Take for instance, if I ask my student to edge a whole bunch more, but I'm on a rental ski, which is a foam core ski, doesn't have a lot of torsional rigidity to it, the edges aren't really that sharp, pretty hard for you to actually do the task that has been asked of you if the equipment isn't correct. And I would start right at the boots. And I don't think a lot of people take enough time with their boots to make sure that their boots fit them properly, that their boots are— that their legs are aligned properly as well. As you know, Tom, I'm sure you get this done, and I do as well, but you either get your soles ground or you do something in there so that you know, when you're flexing forward in your boot, that your knees aren't going to the outside, that they're moving towards the big toe, that the alignment is correct, and then making sure that the foot can function with inside the boot as well. I've seen a lot of boot fitting and getting insoles built for your feet where there's so much support that the foot can't work in a natural fashion. I'm a strong believer in having a footbed in your boot, but one that is not rigid. It's not like you have a golf ball under your arch. You have a little bit of give, you know, so that you can balance. You know, running down on the beach in the summertime in Australia, Australia, it feels right to be in your bare feet and the balance that you have feels good. And if we're talking about feelings coming from the feet and being transferred up, I have to have that connection to the sole of my boot and to the ski so that I can sense what is going on as well. So I think boot fitting, insoles, really, really important. An insole that does allow the foot, when pressure comes on it, that the foot can collapse a little bit so that the muscles inside the foot start to send messages up to the brain saying, "This is what you need to balance," as opposed to, "Oh my goodness, this is going to really hurt because my arch is being supported beyond what it needs to be supported," right? So the boots are really important that way. Boot flex. I know that a lot of people love that, the skis and the boots, they're going to a softer flexing boot. I've never been a proponent of a soft boot. I've always skied in the hardest boots I can possibly find. I've had boots brought over from Europe from the World Cup so that they fit me. And, you know, I'm in a 150 flex. Back when I was a bit younger, it was a 160 flex. I kind of like, if I'm going to feel some pressure into the front of the boot, that the boot rebounds a little bit as well, that it gives me some feedback that my knee just doesn't, doesn't keep going. I don't have a lot of dorsiflexion in the ankle, but I'm just not built that way, so having a boot that collapses on me doesn't feel good. It kind of hurts my ankle, so I like having that little bit of support. Support. So a little stiffer boot is something, especially when it's warm out, I want to have something that is, is going to support me a little bit.

Yeah.

Um, with the wider skis, I must say my stiffer boot doesn't feel that great if I was on a 90+ waisted ski, so 90mm plus. Uh, the boot is too positive and the edge being so far outside the footprint of my foot, it puts a lot of torque on the knee, and unless you lay it over every single time and get that ski up on its edge, I find it's a little bit more difficult. So I do have a softer pair of boots that if I'm going out on the wider skis, I'll put on a softer pair of boots with those wider skis as well. I find that's a little better combination in there.

Yeah, yep.

Skis, skis have changed quite a bit, and, um, you know, we've got snowboarding, I think, to thank for that. That, uh, all the sidecut we have on the skis these days, it really, uh, really has made skiing easier. And, um, you know, the early rise that skis have in them now as well, it does the same thing as adding sidecut to ski, the ski is pretty bent, uh, basically. And so, you know, we talked earlier about trying to get our GS skis up on the sidewall to bend them. Well, these skis now, with a little bit early rise in them, some still have normal camber under the foot, but just some relief in the tip and tail. When you tip them over, in essence, it's taken that 21-meter ski or 22-meter ski and made it into a a 16-meter ski because of that early rise that's there. So the skis have really made a difference there and made skiing a lot easier for people. And I think that skiing's more enjoyable for people. And here in Canada, we really have seen a resurgence of people back into skiing. You know, snowboarding was a— it was kind of 50/50 between snowboarding and skiing for some for such a long time, and now you're seeing most of the people out on the hill are back into the skiing. And Shake Skis have done that for us.

Excellent. So I was going to ask you about Interski, because you've been several times. What would be some of the highlights of that event?

Interski, just knowing and getting to learn from other countries of what they do, making lifelong friends is probably the highlight of Interski. I've met so many people from around the world that have enhanced my ski teaching career just by knowing them and talking about skiing and how they feel about the skiing. That really has been the highlight of interskiing for me, is meeting all these different people and really realizing that our way is not the only way. The Canadian way is not the only way. There's so many different ways of doing things and having the end result be very, very similar. In this day and age, you know, back in '87 when I was I was part of the team and Interski was in Canada, in Banff. That was kind of the only opportunity that we had to get together. Nowadays, you look at— you're down in Sydney, Australia, I'm up here in Vernon, British Columbia, and we're talking to each other about ski technique. The internet has made such a big difference in that we have those exchanges changes of ideas are instantaneous. If you have a thought, you're able to make a video, you can send it to me, I can look at it, I can analyze it and look at it that way. And Interski was, you know, the purpose for that was to try to get all the skiing nations together, get us looking at skiing in a holistic sense. And I believe that Interski has globalized the ski teaching a whole bunch. I don't think that the message you get in Australia is that much different than you get in Canada, or the message that you get in Switzerland is much different than the one that you would get in the USA. Skiing has become much more global that way. We've exchanged ideas, we're teaching in each other's countries in the off-season. And interski has done that for us. So, you know, to me that is really the highlight, is that skiing has become a world sport as opposed to a sport by country. It really has become the same that way. I've got to say, interski for me has, you know, besides getting married and having my kids, it's been the highlight of my ski teaching career. Career being part and parcel of that and being chosen to be there. It's our Olympics, and considering yourself as a bit of an athlete, I couldn't go to the actual Olympics, but getting to Interski was a fantastic experience.

Do you remember the sort of the most sort of proud moment being at the top of the demo slope when that you guys were going to go down? Was that kind of, or maybe perhaps afterwards when you'd done it? Was that sort of—

Well, I have to look back to 1987 and one of my skiing partners and really good friend, and you know him well as well, Tom, Cam Watson. Cam is a Level 4, he and I got our Level 4 together. We made the team together and Cam and I, we were on the same equipment we skied very similarly because we skied together a lot and we had to do a demonstration there and it was like we were tied together by a string. You know, the separation that was between the two of us and it was high-speed kind of GS-type turns down a steep slope and I just remember as I turned to the right and he was on my left side that He just came along with me and it was such a cool feeling and that's still one of the highlights of my Interski career as far as being a demonstrator. The other highlight as being a coach is seeing that same kind of reaction out of team members, you know, when we went to Japan in 1995 and the Zao Luan San, I remember some of our our team members feeling that same way and having that same kind of sense when they got to the bottom of the ski slope of how attached they were to others. So that has been some big moments for me. Other moments have been to be part and parcel of the learning that takes place. So the sessions that take place afterwards They have been— these sessions have validated some of the thoughts that we've had and some of the teachings that we've done in Canada, and in others it's made us think, are we doing the right thing? And maybe we should take a look and see if there's a different way of doing some things as well. So, you know, those are some big highlights there. They're not small. Specifics, but you know, they're real eye-openers. I also, through Interski, I was able to, to go to the Klimmelsporthain in Kaprun, Austria. I spent 2 weeks on the glacier there in, in the Austrian snow sports school there and being, being taught by, you know, Bernd Graber and, uh, and Richie Berger and Paul Romagna and, and some of the best best ski teachers that you could ever find anywhere in the world. And then going to St. Anton, we actually spent the week before Interski at St. Christoph and, uh, and, and just meeting everyone and looking through their libraries and, and the steeped history of, of the sport. Uh, the sport's kind of young here in Canada in comparison to, uh, to other nations. So that— those are some big highlights there as well.

Yep. I can remember the night we were supposed to do the Australian run at St. Anton, and that morning we'd been practicing on the slope and it was bulletproof. It was the worst snow, like it was better in Australia, I think. And you know, all these other countries had come down and skidded all over it, so it was bits of sugar and then ice. So anyway, I'd had a bit of an intimidating practice session with the rest of the team. And we get to the top and we're all waiting up there and everyone's around. There's this, you know, big hyped atmosphere and you can see the French guys, you know, on the right and the Austrians on the left and they're all absolutely cool, you know. That looks like this is no big deal. And I was just so nervous, so, so nervous. And I turned to, to our coach Andy Ray and I said, Andy, um, I don't mind if you don't think I can do this, I don't mind going around. And, you know, like he said, shut up, Tom, just get down there, you've practiced for this, it's fine. And I can just remember him and I, we kind of like, we did this sort of just a snake, me on telemarks and him behind me. And as soon as I went, it was fine. It was just, and I felt awesome and got to the bottom. But yeah, you're right. I can see where you're coming from with the coach sort of aspect, being sort of proud and then being right in there and all that practice coming to this sort of staged almost performance with all the pressure there and you just get in the zone. It's incredible.

Yeah, it is a great feeling for sure. Yeah.

So, I want to be sort of respectful of your time, Norm. I guess finally, quickly, who do you look for for inspiration at the moment? Who are you looking at?

You know, there's a number of different things. I could break it into a couple of things. From a mental aspect and watching skiing and trying to keep my mind sharp on what I'm looking for and trying to bounce ideas off of The person that got me into ski teaching back in 1979 when I took my Level 2 course, I had an instructor in front of me that was able to relate ideas in such a fine fashion, and his name was Martin Olson. And to this day, Martin is still my best friend. He ends up coming up to Silver Star and they rent a cabin here and he skis all the time. And, you know, he walked into my office yesterday and we had a little chit-chat about technique and he is still a student of the sport. And so, you know, when it comes to the sport itself, he's still someone that I look to, that I talk to skiing about. Steve Smart as well. I give him a phone call, see what he's working on in the racing world. He and I really respect what are each other's opinions on skiing, and I totally respect what Steve has to say as well. I look abroad as well and start to look at some of the best ski racers in the world. So you do look at, you know, Hirscher just winning another Globe, and you know, you have to take a look at those guys and say to yourself, you know, boy, boy, they are committing themselves getting better and what are they doing to get better as well. The other thing that I try to do is that I try to also get some inspiration from my learners, from the people that I teach. I'll give you, for instance, I have a client that comes out from Ottawa every year. I ski a lot with this person and I've had— he's been kind of plateaued for a number of years, I've talked about the same thing and so on and so forth, but this year, boy, just the light bulb moment went off for him and all of a sudden, both he and his son ski with me, they start making some better turns and then all of a sudden that inspires me and that kind of puts some drive in there, keeps me thinking as well, how can I say the same thing in a different way so that that the person can all of a sudden understand it and realize how to move forward with it. So, you know, there's many people— I look to you, Tom, I watch some of the videos of you skiing, you are an inspiration to me, you know, and both in the alpine side of things and in the telemark side of things, it just amazes me that you can do the things that you do on those telemark skis. We actually had the world champion German telemark skier was at Silver Star training again this year and he just won the world championships. Wow. You know, they go through the park and he throws a backflip on his tele gears, you know, it just kind of inspires you to move forward. Yeah. My very good friend Guy Paulsen, he's into the Nordic side of it. Side of things, but teleskiing, he's becoming better and better at it, level 4 ski instructor, but just trying to broaden his horizons. Those are the kinds of people that I look to, I look to what they're trying to do and move themselves forward, that really inspires me. And the biggest highlight that I had this year is that my boys and I went out skiing with mom at Christmas time. And I tell you, the angles that my kids can create are very similar to the angles that a lot of World Cuppers can create, and they're the best skiers on the mountain. Yeah, and they, they overshadow my skiing talents and mom's skiing. So that, that's what makes you proud. So I think I've done something correct and instilled a real passion for the sport, because skiing is such a great thing, uh, Tom. It's something that you're going to be doing until you're in your 90s, it's going to be something that I can do until I'm 90. I'm hoping that my body holds together. I've never really had any ski injuries, so I'll touch wood on that one. But it is a lifelong sport, and that's the beauty of it. That's what inspires me.

Great, excellent. And then I was just thinking, I've heard, you know, being around around all sort of different experienced skiers, you hear like, you know, these, it's almost like I caught this fish that was, you know, this big and these exaggerated stories and, you know, ones of people skiing on one ski because they'd broken their foot or had frostbite or something and they ski down an extremely steep run or something and better than anyone else on two skis. Is what's your biggest fish story? Like, have you seen someone, can you remember a story where you're like, oh my God, that's the most impressive thing I've seen in, you know, real life skiing ever?

I gotta say that when I was in Norway for Interski in 1999, the Norwegian Interski team, they really impressed me. And they skied down on the their cross-country gear, so they had skating skis on. They skied down and it looked like they had alpine gear on. And beside the demo slope itself, there was a big jump that they had built. And being the hosting country, they could have as many members as they had. But it was their alpine members that were— they're also demonstrating in the alpine side, but there they were with cross-country cross-country skis on, and there were about 10 of them, and they all went zipping off of this jump. And this jump was huge, and they had to chop the landing and, and so on and so forth. And a number of them jumped off, you know, doing daffies and doing spread eagles and so on and so forth. And the last person that came down on a pair of cross-country skis just doing a backflip and landed in a telemark landing, and both skis broke, right? Right at the binding, but he skied away. He actually skied, just pulled it up and he skied away. That, like, that was just so, so impressive when I watched that. Um, and another, another one would have been, uh, I had the opportunity to ski with, uh, with Bernd Graber, and, uh, and Bernd was, uh, he was a what I would say is a naturally gifted skier. He really had the touch. There was stuff that he would do that I would just say to myself, man, oh man, I can't believe someone can be that light on the edge yet that powerful in the look. And Brent, he was one heck of a great skier. So, you know, those are some things that we really have impressed me over the years. And, uh, you know, the cross-country side of things, that, you know, it just shows you that balance is so much of skiing.

Yeah.

And that really, really stuck out in my mind.

Excellent. Well, um, anything final to say before we wrap up this conversation?

Well, you know, all I can say is that for, for anyone that is working towards the next level of, of skiing, you know, become a student of the sport, become more than just a student of the sport, become a student of the human anatomy, how the anatomy works so that you understand what the motor patterns need to be in order to ski properly, how that integration of your motor patterns along with the ski redesign how they work together. And skiing, there's so much to look at, there's so many videos to take a look at online. Just watch a lot and watch a lot of good skiing because that's what you want to imprint in your mind is the good skiing. I do a lot of video with my Snow Sports School and they want to see themselves over and over again and I say, oh no, that's enough of that now, okay? You don't want to watch that, you want to watch the good skiing. So here's an image of what you want to watch so that you imprint your mind with the good stuff.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, great words of advice. Well, thanks again for your time, Norm, that was really fun chatting with you. And wish you the best of luck for the rest of the season in Canada, I know it's almost over. And we'll have to do it again sometime.

Well, thanks very much, Tom, I really appreciate you asking me on this, I hope that I hope you guys have a great season down under, uh, just like you did last year. You had a whole bunch of snow, and I wish that upon you guys again. So thanks very much, Tom.

Cheers. Thanks, Tom. This episode is sponsored by Carv, the digital ski coach, and one of the updates I've really enjoyed this season is the addition of separate SkiIQs for moguls and short turns. In the past, Carv scoring was mainly built around carving metrics, which meant everything was viewed through that lens. But Carv have gone deep on that research and completely separated what makes a great short turn or mogul turn different from a carved turn. To give you an idea of how accurate it's become, the person at the top of the Carv leaderboard right now isn't a carving specialist, it's Olympic mogul skier Matt Graham. So the best SkiIQ in the world at the moment is coming from someone who lives and breathes bumps. And to be honest, my own highest SkiIQ is also in the moguls, which makes sense because that's my favorite type of skiing. What's really exciting this year is the addition of turn tempo, so basically your turns per minute. It's such a simple external output that's incredibly fun to play with. So good skiing isn't just about edge similarity or parallel skis, it's about how you interact with the terrain and whether you can change your tempo on demand. So seeing numbers like my quickest tempo of 117 turns per minute in the bumps gives you something concrete to compare, refine, and work toward. I've been working with Carv since 2020, and every year I'm genuinely impressed with how much the product evolves. They keep expanding what you can measure, and they're covering more and more of the turn types that skiers actually use all over the mountain. So if you're interested in tracking not just your carving but every turn you make on the snow, check out Carv. And a big thanks to the team for supporting this episode.