The Professional Ski Instructors of Canada - Doing things differently with the PSIC

What would you do if you were to start your own ski instructor certifying organization? Would you do things differently from others? In today's modern world, would you do things different from what were done in the past? How would you compare yourself to others in the industry? And is everything up to date with this modern world? Well, Canada has a new ski instructor certifying body, the PSIC, Professional Ski Instructors of Canada, and I sat down and had a great chat with 3 of those people that are involved. Jeff Marks and Mark Sedgwick, who are co-founders of the PSIC, and then Guy Hetherington from Alltracks Ski Academy in Whistler, who's one of the head trainers and very much involved in how the curriculum has been set out and how they do it. I found this conversation really interesting because these people get to start afresh. They get to take a look at the state of skiing and instructing at the moment and say, hey, do we want to change anything? Is there anything that we need to do differently. And I think that's very unique. It's very hard to change something once it's already sort of in place. If your certifying country has deep roots in how things are taught, then change can be often quite difficult.

The term is the free marketplace of ideas. You want ideas to bubble up and just, you know, doesn't matter where they come from. Because I'm a Level 4 examiner and you're not should not enter into that equation. And if, you know, if we can continue to propagate that philosophy, it will empower people, it will give them the freedom to think. And the freedom to think is what people need as they're developing. You stifle that and you're not doing them a service at all.

I find it fascinating that Canada gets to start over again. In this conversation, I think you're going to walk away with a bunch of really interesting insights for people who, say, start their own businesses, are in the ski instructor world, have had lessons. I think everybody who's out there has been involved in the ski industry is going to have something really cool to take away. My favorite part, as always, is when we get a little bit ski nerdy.

Listen to everybody smiling, right? Like, we're all, we're all like actually emotionally involved in Guy's description of what he's working on in his skiing, which is, which is awesome.

Stay tuned partway through for that. If seeing things from another perspective is how you like to view learning a sport, then I'd also invite you to check out Big Picture Skiing. You'll notice the guys reference what I'm doing in Big Picture Skiing a few times in this conversation, and this is my opportunity, this is my way of starting afresh, starting over again, and doing things the way I like to do it. It's not for everybody, of course, but it's a fantastic resource. There are people all over the world improving their skiing and learning through the Big Picture Skiing website, so please go check that out if you haven't. There's a 7-day free trial, so you can do it risk-free. Okay, let's get into this podcast episode with the PSIC. I think you're going to really enjoy it. So you guys are in a unique position in that you can start over again with a ski instructor certifying body and training body. What is different? What's changed if someone came from another association and they, and they joined the PSIC? How would you guys say, like, what are the biggest differences?

Well, I think how we identify ourselves, and we've spent a lot of time, and really, you know, when we started from scratch, it was, you know, culture, industry alignment, and the adventure is what would represent the identity of the PSIC. And we can kind of get into kind of what defines those pieces, but ultimately, you know, culture community is everything to us. So our community will define us as we go on. So, you know, we believe kind of diversity and inclusion makes us stronger, you know, not just for this organization, but, you know, society in general. And then with the industry alignment, it was making sure that what we were building was relevant to a modern-day ski school. So it kind of represents the skills and competencies for today's environment. You know, the loudest message in there was that teaching is so much more than improving technique, and it should represent the entire skiing experience. And that, you know, we want to bring those people back and make them lifelong skiers and, you know, instill the love of the sport. And from that, you know, we went on to create this thing called the Adventure, which really is central to our philosophy on everything that we've done from that point. So I think that's kind of the very quick synopsis of what we've done with the ability to start from scratch. That's our identity, but there's a lot in there. So, you know, Jeff and Guy, I'll give you an opportunity that I've kind of put the headlines in there if you've got anything to kind of flesh out on that front.

Yeah, the thing that first stands out to me, I was looking on the PSIC website and there is a tab that you can click on about and then steering committee. And I was just looking through those names and kind of reading a bit about people, and there are, there are a lot of snow sports directors from different places in Canada, and it's very visible to see who they are. And I don't— I'm not sure, was this similar in— in— is this similar in other associations? Because it sounds like— well, this sounds different to me in terms of you've, you've probably gone and approached the ski school directors and saying, what do you guys need to deliver a better product? Instead of like, we're giving you this whether you like it or not.

Yeah, that's exactly right. And not to jump in if the others had to say, but we, we have— it's, you know, it's at least a dozen deep now, and it's representatives from either resort owners or ski school directors. So, and we go right from Vancouver Island, kind of Mount Washington, which is on, you know, the very West Coast, and all the way over in Canada's Canada's as wide, if not wider, than Australia, Tom. So as you know, so all the way over to Nova Scotia. So we're represented kind of across the entire country with that body. And that's exactly it. They keep us accountable. They, they govern us. And, and that's how we know we're delivering what the industry needs because it's actually the industry telling us. So, yeah, thank you for jumping on the website and having a look at that because that is how you know, the industry alignment. It's a collaboration, and we have our meetings and we show them our materials and they give us feedback, and we've got a bunch of tasks, and we go on and build the competencies. Our job is to, you know, our expertise is to build competencies and skills in professionals, and their expertise is understanding what competencies they want in their employees. So it's a kind of a Good.

What did, what did some of the, what did some of the steering committee come to you requesting that's maybe different?

Well, I mean, a lot of that is actually what is in our Level 1 and 2. And I'll, like Mark said, thanks for checking out the website. Like when you go in there, if you poke around a little bit, you'll find, you know, overviews of our Level 1 through, through Level 4, including our LPT course and, and so on. And you know, you've probably seen our write-ups on the Adventure and how that exists in our system. And that I think is probably a highlight there is, is, you know, how do we create something for a ski pro that isn't just a way of teaching, but it actually also kind of draws them in. And that's, that's where our, you know, we started with the concept of skier experience. And as we talked and, and got and got a little bit more creative with it, it became the Adventure and we we got pretty excited about it as we talked and we took that idea to the steering committee and kind of said, well, here's what we're thinking, you know, in order to get more people in the door, 'cause ultimately that's what we want to do is we want to grow, you know, both from the end user, the participant side in Canada to participation in SnowSchools and instructors and so on. And so, you know, we've done a lot of back and forth with the committee And that's where we landed, was, was with the adventure, is it's, it's more than just, um, lesson structure, more than just, um, guest experience, which obviously is a commonly used thing. But we just, we, we felt we could amplify it a little bit with, with the concept of adventure. You know, everything that we do is adventure. And then we were kind of like, okay, well, what does that mean? Well, it means that it's got to be fun and it's got to be safe and, and it's got to produce learning. Um, and then it just kind of all snowballed from there and, and grew. And the committee, you know, is, is all over it and it's driven a lot of our conversations as well. So they've fed vet it, and, and we've come, come back. Like Mark said, they're, they're kind of our, you know, they're our vetting process, they're our compass to help us, you know, do the right things.

Great. And Guy, what would you say, you know, from your experience of, of, of the PSIC so far, someone asked you what's different if they came in and did a course, like say the Level 1 course, compared to another, another Level 1 course they may have done? Could you highlight some key differences?

Yeah, I mean, you know, just reflecting on what Mark was saying there, the idea of putting sort of this idea of inclusiveness front and center includes, you know, sort of dissolving the traditional ideas of sort of hierarchy in particular. And we've sort of formalized this term, giving people license to think, and we want that philosophy to trickle down so that a Level 1 candidate is going to feel like they have license to think and to get involved in the thought process. And, you know, we just feel when we do dissolve the sort of hierarchical nature that's typically existed in the industry, it just allows people to blossom from a much younger or younger stage of their development, if that makes sense. And, you know, as much as we're being guided by you know, the Industry Steering Committee. I think a free marketplace of ideas, allowing good ideas to bubble up from anywhere, and the philosophy that surrounds that attitude is something that will make us stronger. And I think it's something that Level 1 candidates are going to feel from the way their course conductors approach the Level 1 in and of itself. So, yeah, I would say that You know, this idea of being inclusive includes that as a philosophy, and that, that is something that is felt very, very strongly and very strenuously by the people who have taken the Level 1 so far. So yeah, that's just one point to consider there.

You know, I'm a real tangible person, like, could you, because I've done, I've run Level 1 courses in Australia, that sort of stuff. Give me, like, can you give me like an example of that, of this non-hierarchical nature in the Level 1 PSIC? Is there something that's actually an example in a day?

Yeah, well, I would say just, I mean, you know, to start with, just an attitude from the course conductor that is obviously very friendly and very open and that encourages discourse without judgment, you know, and without any sort of shame attached to it. So, you know, I think more than, you know, a single example, it's something that's felt by everybody based on the attitude of the course conductor and the way they conduct themselves in front of the group. I don't know if you guys have anything to add there in terms of specific examples, but—

Yeah, a little bit. And kind of, you know, when Tom first asked the question, that's, you know, and I— what identifies the PSIC and then brought in the lens of, well, what would one of the participants or the members think and feel if you ask them to them from that perspective. And, you know, what I've heard from them, so if they're answering the question, you know, and this is a bit broad brush, but, you know, oh, wow, when they go through the training courses and through the evaluations, it's, this is like I ski and when I teach, when I'm at my best, you know, it's not, you know, we don't have set ski-off maneuvers. We— and we can get into this, Tom, with the training and with the evaluations— it's the mountain guides us at each of our levels, right? It's a range of skiing that we're looking at. And when they teach, it's not, you know, if I go as far as say they're not out there trying to give a canned lesson because that's what they feel the examiners need to check off as they go through their list. It's representative of of the fun aspects of connecting with the guests and celebrating the milestones and exploration and terrain play. It's a bunch of the safety principles. And safety isn't just about, you know, keeping someone from hurting theirself physically, but it's that psychological safety. So it's all of those aspects that they do out there, or we do as professionals every day when you're at your best teaching or skiing, that we have put a lot of effort into making sure our courses and evaluations represent that. So when we go back and say, you know, the adventure really is central to our culture, we've embodied it even in the training and in the evaluation. So for example, with the hierarchy, you know, there's not one case in a PSIC exam right through from Level 1 to Level 4 where typically you'll have a bunch of candidates standing at the top kind of with or without a number, getting cold, and they'll have a single run that's pretty consequential, like 1 or 2 runs that define a season of training with a number of folks at the bottom with clipboards. You know, there's a hierarchy, there's a judgment. That doesn't happen. That, that, that we have other mechanisms and they take a little longer, but it better represents what the industry is looking for in their performance when they're out there skiing and teaching. So there's a couple of examples that have been cleanly illustrated to me over and over and over with our members as they've been going through some of our initial courses.

Okay, so say if I'm, I'm Tom Gellie, director of Big Picture Skiing on the internet, ski school, and I want to hire a PSIC Level 1, how do I know? Or if Level 2, like, what am I gonna get? Is this person gonna know, uh, like a particular progress— like, what level can they teach up to? You know, are they just going to be adventuring around? Like, I just show people— like, do you get what I'm saying? Like, I would want to know what can these people teach and to what level? Can you guys speak to that? Maybe Jeff?

Sure.

Yeah.

Like, you know, we, the adventure is really, it's just, it's a philosophy, right? It is what is driving us as a group of people in our leadership team. But, and it's a way of kind of catching the instructor's attention in what are, what their purpose is, right? Is it's not to be repetitive, but it's bigger than just the lesson. It's actually like if you treat it like an adventure and like you're the, you're the designer of that experience and you're going to go out there and you're, you're not just teaching skiing, you're— it's, it's so much more than that. You're, you know, you're creating this unbelievably, you know, immersive, compelling experience that somebody's going to come back for because that is a thing that the industry is asking for, is that repeat. But behind that is, you know, there is technical knowledge, there is, you know, a structure of how to teach. You know, we have something called the Technical Blueprint, which basically lays out a way for an instructor to look at skiing through what we're calling a purpose-based lens, essentially. So really understanding, you know, based on the snow conditions, based on the conditions of the day, the people that you're working with is what are they actually trying to accomplish? And when you can, you know, it often boils down to what is the ski doing on the snow? And when we, when they know that, then they can start to move through, well, okay, this is happening on the snow because the skier is moving like this. And if I want something different or if they want something different to happen, if they have a bit of a goal in mind, then we can change how the skier moves so that they can change how they manipulate the ski. And then bang, we're kind of back down at the bottom manipulating or getting a different outcome or a different purpose, intent, you know, whatever you want to call that. So to go back to your question, you know, in the, the pathway while the adventure guides it and it does, you know, does feel very philosophical, how they get there is very clearly laid out. You know, we have a concept called the Adventure Builder that says, you know, it's a, it's a bit of a lesson structure, right? It's, it's connect and create and facilitation and feedback and practice and play. Like that's a cycle that we want to help the instructor go through and to understand how that actually helps the student. The Technical Blueprint, which I've talked about, I'm sure we'll get an opportunity to talk about what we refer to as the method, which it kind of actually drives all of that. So yeah, it isn't, you know, to your, to your point, it, it isn't just the, it's not just a, a guiding adventure. It is technical knowledge and understanding, you know, it's driven by, by scientific backing as well. How people learn, how people engage, what does a connection do with someone, you know, like all of that stuff is in there as well.

I guess I was just trying to, like, I was thinking, oh, what about, You know, if I go back to Australia and I speak, um, with the ski school director at Red Bow and, and they're like, yeah, this new PSIC started up and I've got a bunch of people that have applied and they're level 1 PSIC, like, what? Like, you know, he's probably gonna go like, what do they know? Because he's, he's probably had level 1 Austrians, Canadians, totally, also, right? And he knows what they can do, being like, right, I could put them on this program. So I guess I'm just I don't— I'm not going to hire anyone at this point anyway, but I'm thinking from those, those ski school directors listening to this around the world, this is your chance to tell them like what, like on a piece of paper, they could like— they can teach advanced bumps, they can teach 180s, uh, they can teach whatever, like anything on that sort of a line.

So I can, I can start, I can start the answer to that. So really where we started, if we're getting to the nuts and bolts, really In Canada, we're, as you know, Tom, we're a 4-level system, which mirrors most of the world from that perspective. And what set the industry is what sets that in Canada. You know, skiing is a not-for-profit. It's not federally regulated. It's actually regulated by the industry. So on that, we already, the industry has already set a level 1, 2, 3, and 4. So the, you know, our resort partners and our ski school directors that are on the Industry Steering Committee, they're really the owners of the ski schools that pay for these certain certifications. So what we did is we mirrored that in Canada on par to the level. So the amount of time spent on task in those levels is the same as it's always been here. In fact, at the Level 3, it's a day longer in there. So our learning outcomes, both on the teaching and on the skiing, mirror what a Level 1 could do before, which is, you know, you enter the ski school and you're ready to go for your first day and you can teach a novice lesson up to the very basics of parallel. And then a Level 2 is a bit more, and a Level 3, really, that's all mountain. And a Level 4, you get into the training room. So we didn't break the mold on that. Like, the, the, the, the, the hierarchy of levels and the competency of the skiing and the teaching in there was already set by the industry. So we, we mirrored that. Where we've put our work in is the rule sets and how we evaluate that and what the competencies there are. So I think your question in there, and I don't want to dominate the microphone here, you know, if you're a ski school director from elsewhere, you know, how would you know? So what we've been doing quite extensively is we built, you know, a rather robust 50-plus page document. We called it an International Equivalency Package, and we sent all of our overviews of each of the levels and the pathway and all of the curriculum that makes it up. And it's quite robust in our technical materials. And we even gave a link to our e-learning platform, which is a learning management system, which, you know, people go in and do a bunch of e-learning. So we front-load a bunch of our base representations. So their time on task, which is on the Hill, is more productive and showed them that for equivalencies. And we have a number of equivalencies, you know, across, actually across definitely the English-speaking nations now where you can go, you know, you can go from Australia, let's just take Australia, we have equivalency with the APSI. So you could take your PSIC Level 1 across to Australia and you can enter their pathway and do the APSI Level 2. And that's the intent and that's what we've done everywhere. So, you know, as a PSIC level, you'll have the equivalency package, you'll know what it's equivalent to in your own organization that you're intimately familiar with, and then kind of that's that's where that competency level sits. Now, as we all know, comes down to individuals, comes down to experience, and that all comes into play. But as far as that typical hierarchical model that's assessed, we followed kind of the standard in Canada because that's set by the industry. We had an international package go out of equivalency, and in the example that you brought up, Australia, that's all completed and kind of that's how it works.

Nice. Guy, anything to add there?

Uh, yeah, I mean, I mean, obviously I've been involved, um, you know, from fairly early on. And, you know, I would say, um, as one of the trainers for the LPT training, just sinking my teeth into this material does feel very refreshing, uh, and in some ways liberating. Um, and, you know, I've been involved in the creation of some of the curriculum And yeah, it's just been a pleasure to be involved from the ground up. Just sort of, you know, harking back to your original question and to be involved with such a passionate group of people and that's attracting, you know, like-minded individuals to help this thing blossom and to watch it blossom has just been, you know, quite astonishing, to be honest, and very refreshing. And, you know, it's just been, like I said, a pleasure to be involved from the ground up.

That was one of the questions I had actually, is how has this re— you know, starting from scratch again, and you mentioned it was refreshing. Have you found now, like, being on a course, do you feel like a little bit more inspired and creative?

Absolutely.

An example in there, like maybe an actual on-snow example from one of the courses where you like, you, you went down a certain path and and it resulted in something good because you had freedom.

Yeah, well, I mean, maybe we can get into the method in a little bit, but, um, yeah, you know, working the concept of the challenge zone is, is such a great way to gauge where you're, where your trainees are at at any moment and then base your decision-making, you know, on your observations and working to keep them in a zone where everything is fresh and fun and does feel like an adventure even though You know, they're working through their own technique. So yeah, we, I, you know, for me, the refreshing part is the tools that I feel we now have at our disposal to inform our decision-making in a very, very productive way, in a very positive way. And it's liberating in a way, you know, and I think we've all been in sessions where we felt ourselves digging a little bit of a hole and perhaps things aren't running the way we'd hoped them to have been. And I just feel some of the tools that we've created and now have at our disposal just sort of circumvent the amount that that sort of happens on Hill. So from my perspective, it's kind of liberating and refreshing to be able to lean on this material in a way that has real-world consequences when you're in front of the guests and/or trainees. And it's, yeah, that is very inspiring.

Can I add to that too? Like some of it for me, cuz I'll, I'll echo Guy for sure. Like I, you know, I'm, yeah, I don't know, maybe it's coincidental, but I'm enjoying teaching and training, you know, and, and my own skiing and, and the thought processes that I'm in and, and, and that more now than, than ever. But I think some of it is actually in the structure that we've built, you know, to go back to where Mark was earlier, which is, You know, we've, we've moved away from a, you know, from 100% consequential final exam at every step of, of the process. And what I honestly feel that doing in, in two, in two realms is it's liberating because what we're not finding ourselves doing during programs is practicing that final exam.

right?

We're, we're, we're constantly in a, in a process of dealing with exactly what's there. And we're doing, you know, I've, I've started to refer to them, you know, as, as micro sessions in my, in my own head, right? We're, we're, we're, we're repeatedly able to get participants involved in discussions and, and question and answer and, and listening to their collaboration between each other and how they interact with each other. That's actually, that's actually built right into our learning outcomes at every level as well, which is active participation with your peers, trainers, and learning activities. And, but what I think is the most impactful in terms of, of this, you know, this liberation, if he, if we can call it that, that, that Guy's referring to is that because we're not training them towards a 1-hour exam or a 2-hour exam or anything like that, or a series of, of, of a select few ski-off maneuvers that will be done on one day you know, and so on. What that's actually forcing us to do is teach like I think we teach in our everyday lives. And so there isn't this kind of, I'll call it that sort of heavy bearing down feeling of, okay, I'm coming to the end of this training session, you know, of 2 or 3 or 4 days. And now we're into this practicing the final product because We know that the final product is never— it's not gonna be the same today as it is tomorrow as it is the next day, because everything changes. The people change, the snow changes, everything changes. So basically it is in our structure that actually changes it. And, and for me as a trainer, I'm finding way more productivity. I'm finding, uh, far deeper engagement and, and a lot of freedom. I'm sensing a lot of freedom and liberation on the, the part of the participants because they also aren't worried about a final presentation of something. They're involved in the learning, they're thinking about it, they're make, they're trying, they're making mistakes, they're doing all that stuff that you have to do when you learn all the way through to the end of that training session. And then we have all that information that we've collected to kind of go, okay, this is what we've seen. And yeah, it's just, it's been really productive. So like fun, exciting, different, but actually honestly super productive at the same time, which, which is what we need. And what we want. So I, yeah, I'm, I'm stoked about it. Like, I'm—

yeah, I can hear, I can hear that in all your voices. And I think that's, you know, you, you're all saying you love working with all the people that, that have come together for this, uh, this new association. And yeah, you can, you can hear it.

So, so then, sorry, just because, you know, Jeff's enthusiasm reminded me, you know, I have the— I'm very fortunate that I— we just had a, our Level 4 startup camp, and, you know, we had lots of people in it. So I got to go from group to group to group to group, and I could see— and I'm talking, you know, you know, many Interski team members and extremely, extremely well-recognized competent trainers out there— and what they are loving and what the groups are loving in there. If you just look at our, you know, we call them our learning outcomes, so our skiing outcomes, you know, at kind of Level 2, we don't— we call it Level 2, but what we're doing is we're adding versatility adaptability to your skiing. You know, at Level 1, it's— we talk about the fundamentals. At Level 2, it's versatility. At Level 3, we actually advanced skiing, it's versatility and adaptability. And at our Level 4, which is expert skiing, we're adding that creativity. So it's versatility, adaptability, and creativity. And what does that look like? It looks like rather than an expert short turn, which there's really no such thing because it's situation-based what an expert short turn is in any situation, right? If it's flat, it's pure carved. If it's, you know, 50 degrees, there's a fraction at the end that's carved, but they're both expert short turns. So when we let the mountain guide us, that was the enthusiasm you hear from the candidates and the trainers out there when they're out there training our 4 different short turn types that represent a range of expert short turns on the mountain, whether it's, you know, the steered short turn or the carved short turn or the free short turn. Or into the medium turns where we're doing stivots. You know, I'm getting excited just talking about it again because we finally get to go out and ski everywhere on the mountain and it's situation-based and we work on practical, purpose-based, relevant skiing wherever it is. You're not searching out this perfect run to try and practice this one maneuver that's supposed to be representative of expert-level skiing. Like, you know, when I talk about it like this, it's, it's, it's Wow, why haven't we done this before? It's fairly obvious. But anyway, so I see these amazing pedigree of teachers out there using this full of enthusiasm, like a Jeff Marks, like a Guy Hetherington, like, you know, all the other folks I could mention without mentioning them here because they're not here. So I won't do that. But very high caliber.

Yeah, that's cool. That's cool. So then how How do you grow? Like, how does someone then pass their Level 4? What's that look like, for example?

Yeah, so it takes a bit more time because we give them a bunch of opportunities to show us their best and to ski the mountain and to teach the mountain and to go through all the learning outcomes. So to pass your Level 4, it's, it's first of all, you, you don't go until you're ready. So our structure, we have these, you know, startup camp and then a top-up camp, either skiing and top-up camp teaching where you go, you know, what I want to bring up to answer that question first is it's a philosophy of the organization and we are development first, certification second. And what that means to us is it's really we want to build lifelong learners and we represent the milestones at the levels and we celebrate them, but it's not the purpose for us doing what we do. You know, it's not the destination. It's the development along the way. So we create an environment where we're breeding and fostering and cultivating lifelong skiers and lifelong learners through all of these tool sets and the mechanisms and our culture and our community and our philosophy. So when we do get there and when people are ready, it takes a little longer because we want to put them in a positive space and a positive environment. And we've actually looked quite a bit and interrogated the learning sciences. And we actually have, you know, some folks we've brought on the positive psychology with positive psychology PhDs to help us with this, formulate where we're going with these evaluations. And that's it. It's 4 days of you having continual snippets of teaching in real-world environments and all of these scheme outcomes. We're doing it over and over and it costs us a little bit more because we put, you know, more than one trainer out there with them, but you're skiing and teaching the whole time, in and out, in and out. Just lots of opportunities. And, and really, that's the mechanism without kind of, you know, getting into the, the real detail of it.

But would it be— I mean, it would be fair to say if I was there doing my Level 4, if I was like, you know, skiing around and Jeff sees me doing some great short turns that really work for that terrain, they're exciting, it's kind of at the level and maybe I did it a couple of times and the third time wasn't so good and whatever, but Jeff in his head be like, right, I can kind of like tick off Tom. I think he can, he can do that. His, his consistency level is at the point. And same with other kind of maneuvers, Jeff, would that be?

Yeah, like we— so I mean, we do, um, yeah, we, we wanted to make sure to have an opportunity where we could really see the kind of the whole person, if that makes sense, right? So, so see them in multiple situations, um, you know, interacting with each other, doing a lot of teaching over and over again. You know, the reality is, is that, um, you know, the, the, the system we, we, we know well is that, you know, there's a, there's an hour-long teaching exam, for example. Um, in this 4-day completion camp that Mark referred to, which is kind of the, you know, it's, it's It's what you, it's where you want to go to finish this process off. Right. And, and that is a bit of a different journey for everybody, but we'll spend 4 days with those people and they'll be, we're working with them, you know, we're supporting them, we're, we're giving advice. We're not just standing back and saying, okay, the floor is yours, go. We, you know, we're, we're stepping. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And, and that is, you know, we've talked about Yeah, we've talked about that already where, where, you know, we're trying to really step towards them in this process because ultimately our goal is to, to pull and to, to get them there.

Yeah.

And, and it actually puts us in a, a, a more, it, it adds responsibility to us to, to do that and to get involved in the process. So, you know, but maybe more specifically to your question, We're, you know, we're putting on a ton of miles and keep in mind, like, we haven't run our Level 4 completion camp yet, right? So we have yet to get to that part of the process. What we have done is, is, is start with the startup camps, which I think we had across the country. Now we've had 32 people, I think, involved in that. And then there's, there's the top-up camps. If you need specific work in your skiing or you're teaching, we've got the Teach and Ski top-ups and then the completion. And, you know, we're going to coach people to help them get there in a, you know, with a skill set that has them kind of, kind of ready so that we're kind of, we're polishing it a little bit, we're sanding the edges, but we're not starting from scratch. And so we are recommending that process to, to go through, but they're gonna be, you know, we're gonna see them skiing and teaching more than we ever have, which is great.

Just imagining like I'm, I'm there, you, you're taking me out and it's first thing and, you know, something black is groomed, it's perfect, it's like, hey everyone, let's go ski this like really well. Like, there's an opportunity right in that. Like, let's use that. And oh hey, it's now— let's check it at the end of the day, who can still ski really well even though now it's, it's a bit moguly. And then, oh right, so James, you just got to change your timing. Like, you're trying to pressure it too early. That worked fine on the groomed, but right now it's through— like, that would be an example. And then if James just suddenly like, yeah, wow, that's so much better, do it again, you're kind of like in your head going, yeah, and, and yeah, I don't even need to add to that.

You just—

exactly.

Yeah, yeah, I could just— yeah, that's so real. I mean, I just like the normal way, does it— I think it doesn't also produce, you know, say you go through the system of how you get your level, whatever is marked down on a sheet of paper, and it's a one-run ski off. It sort of creates someone at the end of that almost with their guest does a similar kind of process, like, oh yeah, you know, I told you how to do this stuff, but you didn't really do it well. So, all right. And then, and maybe doesn't— maybe they don't, because they haven't seen— say, in your situation, you, you'd go, James, you just got to change this part. And, you know, or I need to come up with it. I didn't say it right. I've got to come up with something else because James is not getting, getting it in, in this situation. So then I can just see how that would already produce a better instructor because their experience of getting better is exactly the same as passing which is what happens in a real lesson.

And we do that while they're teaching too. And then you still notice people ski while they teach and everyone. So you're constantly watching people ski and teach. And what you just said, Tom, was perfect because, you know, traditionally many exam formats, there's no learning in there. There's a lot of stress, but there's no learning. This is still 4 days of development. You know, you're never hanging anyone out there to dry, because if, if they're not there, you know, you don't— you can still work in a positive space.

This episode is brought to you by Carv, the digital ski coach. Now, one of the features I've had the most fun with all time is simply the fact that Carv tracks every single turn you make. I treat it a bit like Strava, so at the end of the day, it tells me exactly how many turns I've done, and those numbers keep adding up across the season. So last season in Australia, I had a few days where I was doing nearly 2,500 turns, and my legs were tired, but it was really cool to try and have that number there motivating me. And I'm quietly working my way towards my 1 millionth turn with Carv. So the other metrics I've been diving into lately, and these are new for this season, are very unique, and these are turn corridor and turn radius. And I don't see many skiers using them, but they tell you a lot about the shape and flow of your skiing. So the turn corridor shows you how far you're traveling across the hill, or the time almost between apex to apex, and how long you're taking to transition. While the turn radius measures the actual arc you create once you start the turn. So these can be different. You can have like a very wide corridor, say 18 meters, but a lower turn radius, or the other way around. So when you compare the two, it opens up a whole world of experimentation, and it would be a bit like a race coach will set different types of race courses to influence a racer or skier to change the timing and mix it up. So I encourage you to look into this if you've got Carv and play with it and see if you can manipulate it, because it's only going to improve your versatility. So I keep my Carv on my boots every single day because you never know quite know when like a change in technique or a new ski resort or skis will show up in the numbers, and it's great at the end of the day being able to check that or even and after the fact. And I'm really looking forward to the day I open the app and I see turn number 1 million. So if you want to explore your skiing in a completely different way, check out Carv, the digital ski coach. And thank you, team, for sponsoring this episode.

I would add too that, um, you know, as a Level 4 course conductor, uh, when assessing someone's teaching, you know, when they're ready, they're going to step up within the context of the of the lesson and the group and, you know, be seen more like as a copilot of the session. They're coming up through their coming of age. And you can sense that as a trainer, when somebody's ready, they're rising to the challenge and they're coming up with original ideas and they're presenting them succinctly and they're making a difference. And that is something that is tangible. That is something that is not tangible in the context of a 1-hour lesson where you have the clipboard out. So it's not a useful assessment mechanism anywhere near as much of as what I just described earlier. You know when someone's ready because they rise to the challenge and it's a beautiful thing when they do and you feel it and we all feel it and they take the reins and away they go. And that's the environment we're trying to foster with the the way we're assessing our top-level instructors, and we think it's going to render exceptional results. So that's kind of where we're at with it. I think it's akin a little bit to, I'm not a martial arts guy, but I know jiu-jitsu, for example. I don't think they have an exam to become a black belt. They train with their sensei or whatever they call them, and they roll with them. And when that person starts catching their trainer out here and there, they've presented the black belt and it's a little bit more like that than it is like, you know, like the old system.

Well, I wanna add this too, and I'll credit Guy with this as well is, you know, it's at, I don't even remember when this was, but back in the fall as we were, you know, somewhat frantically, you know, trying to be ready to launch everything this season. Guy said something to us while we were sitting in headquarters at Whistler there. And Guy, correct me if I'm wrong, but it was something like this, which is, you know what? And we were sorting out what we were going to do for learning outcomes or performance criteria for skiing. And Guy basically said, if we're going to live this adventure philosophy, then we need to live it all the way through our pathway. We can't find ourselves at a place in our pathway where suddenly we stop being the adventurers and, and creating that philosophy and that aura and that environment, and we click over into something that is, is much more stressful, and the fun drains out of it a little bit, and it becomes this, this daunting task. I mean, don't, don't get me wrong, like, achieving the Level 4 of any organization, it is a task. It's a, it is a huge undertaking. And, you know, it's, it's an awesome thing to do and it is hard and that's what makes it awesome. So that's very cool. But we really wanted to challenge ourselves to not let that part go away. Let's not let the Level 4 evaluation become anything other than an adventure. And what happened was, is as we sat in headquarters, being Mark's living room, we're sitting in Mark's living room and we, we were sitting there. There's no snow on the ground. We're months from the winter still, and we're sitting there getting excited about the range of skiing and how we're going to evaluate this because it started to feel even in the conversation like real skiing. And Tom, you said it right, like you could just imagine going around, like literally, you know, we're going to go out together, we're going to rip around this hill all day for 4 days. You're going to teach some, you're going to ski a bunch, you're going to help each other out. You're going to do all the things that we do for a living in as real a context as possible, and away we go. And like, Tom, I hear you talk about it and you're excited about it. I can tell James is going to pass, by the way, just— yeah, I know you're talking about it, right? Like, it's— yeah, it's great. And, and, and so for us, you know, I— we're actually excited about getting to that point in this process because we haven't run it yet. We haven't actually run a Level 3 evaluation yet, but that, you know, that part is coming now too. We've run some, some teaching and skiing trainings and stuff like that.

Yeah.

Um, and I think we're gonna learn a lot in that process. But the point is, is that it— when we focus on that, is how do we make this as real as possible? How do we keep the adventure in it? We actually all do better anyway. The performance rises. We do a better job of helping people out.

And I think that's, that's what I really—

way better outcomes.

Yeah. This process is facilitating, it's enabling these these really special trainers to do their thing because they've gotten to the point they're at because they're so dedicated in their, in their physical, mental training. And so this gives them freedom to— it more sounds like, I'm gonna show you how I got as good as I am, so just come along with me and then I'm gonna get out of your way. Yeah, yeah. And then, yeah, and then, and then get out. I mean, Like, I, I must say, like, I get flack sometimes for, you know, leaving an association that, like, the Australian Association that gave me my Level 4, went to Semintaski with, and they're like, why didn't you give back to that association? And things like that. And I do feel guilty for that. However, whenever I would do courses and exams, I would feel contained. This is the first time saying this publicly. But I didn't enjoy it. And my skiing wasn't getting better anytime because of doing those things. It was when I was away with other people, with freedom to experiment and to explore with other ideas. And I went, this, this is what I want to do, and I don't live forever, so I, I need to change course. I'm just going to follow what I want, like my own path and how I want to learn skiing. And it just sounds like I feel like this, what you guys are creating with the PSIC is a culture that enables that individual to sort of thrive. And even like you said, no idea, I can't remember what it was, but you're open to all new ideas. So if something better comes up because Jamie Jack figured out this and shares it with all of you on it, you're like, yeah, let's all try that instead of no, it's in the document. We don't, we talk about this and we don't mention that word. It's too much to change it.

Totally. Yeah, the term is the free marketplace of ideas. You want ideas to bubble up and just, you know, doesn't matter where they come from. Because I'm a Level 4 examiner and you're not should not enter into that equation. And if, you know, if we can continue to propagate that philosophy, it will empower people. It will give them the freedom to think, and the freedom to think is what people need as they're developing. You stifle that, and you're not doing them a service at all.

Absolutely.

Yeah, you know, something that came from the Industry Steering Committee, which was— which is interesting, we all know, as we're just on the theme there and, you know, on the ethos of everyone has something to offer, you know, it would point out, um, you know, the highest repeat rate in our ski school is that girl over there. Do you know what certification she has? She's a Level 2. And she has, oh, okay, well, what is she doing so well that, you know, on those metrics, she has the highest repeat rate in the season? Well, we should be finding out. So everyone has something to offer. And when you create a space for people, as I said, permission to think and contribute in these environments where, you know, people, we got to get rid of the culture where failure is deemed as a negative because then people don't want to speak up. Like that, those being able to speak up, that's where you, you learn more and you get to listen more. So yeah, just on, just on that, just having people feel like they can contribute at all levels. And in this case, your example, Tom, is, you know, right at the, our trainers at the top level, they feel like they've got the shackles off. And, you know, that said, they do, but they have to know their stuff, you know, and the, you know, at our level 4, there'll be 2 of them out there for the 4 days. And it's— they're going to be burning a lot of energy. You know, our brain consumes 30% of our energy just when we're sitting here, let alone out there skiing. But they'll be out there, you know, assessing and developing and helping people the whole time. So I was going to say this before, you know, we've created— you know, historically we've created something very easy for the trainers or the examiners to mark a ski run. You just stand at the bottom with your clipboard and people go by and you mark, rather than get out there and work with them, get your hands dirty. Here's a longer time, give them an environment where they've got a bunch of opportunities and they feel good. So 'Let's make it more— let's make it a bit harder on the trainer in that regard, or the examiner, because you got to get your hands dirty and you got to get there for 4 days. But let's create an environment that's better for our candidates and for our people and for the community.' And it's amazing, you get the right people at the trainer level who are lifelong learners, and they're thriving in this environment. And the only other thing I'll say on that, and we'll get into it, there is still quite a bit of structure behind the scenes for for our training development. And, you know, you know, we've got our technical blueprint and we're working with a biomechanist, so PhD in biomechanics on our movement principles because, you know, purpose provides perspective. So when you have that perspective, you can start to figure out what do we need to do? And then that drives what movement and, well, movement specific to situations. But there's some movement principles that hold true for most things. And, you know, we've got got the learning sciences in there, so deliberate practice, they have to understand how that works. And we've already mentioned the adventure and the method and, you know, our progressions and positive psychology. And then we've got kind of the science of skiing, um, how we think and how it works. So as much as we provide a space for them to do what they do, we also provide a space for them, which is our SkiPro Institute, which is outside the pathway development for our trainers to embody that lifelong learning. And we've created a bunch of tool sets and frameworks that we put a lot of effort into, and we're moving forward. And as a community, we, you know, they represent some, some really neat concepts that are improving the best of the best. And, you know, Jeff Marks is an example here. He's out there more excited when he's using the method when he teaches. And I've heard you know, 4 or 5 people say exactly the same thing. I can't believe this tool set that we've exposed in the method is helping me be a better teacher at this far end. And we can get— we should get that. That's probably a segue. So I'm gonna—

I wanna, I wanna switch gears just for a moment, just for the listener to like maybe just a bit of refreshing. We're all ski nerds here, without a doubt. Think probably way too much about skiing, and our partners probably really get annoyed at that. However, uh, let's do that. So as a segue, each of you, can you— I'm actually genuinely interested, what are you thinking about in this season to work on in your own skiing? Like, I've got a few things in different types of terrain that I'm trying to really get better at this season. What— yeah, so, so Guy, what are you— what's your thing this, this year?

Yeah, I, I have been thinking about a bunch of things uh, Tom, that have, have been working. And it's always, you know, I, I'm constantly experimenting when I'm on the hill. I'm playing around with different movements, seeing what the reaction is, you know. And I'm working to try and create a set of movements, um, that, that hold true for a variety of different snow surface conditions. You know, I think that consistency— I'm, I'm quite a— I'm tall, I'm almost 6 foot 5, so my margins of error, I would argue, are a little, little slimmer than most. But what I'm working on is to develop very good control over my rotational tension, I would call it, in my leg, so that I'm, you know, I'm getting some rotational tension as edge angle builds early in the turn, and then I'm controlling my direction with a strong hip movement inside. And when I find, when I, when I I have those, those, those two things in mind. Good, good tension with the outside leg, you know, inward into the turn, and then allowing the hip to settle in, uh, at the very precise moment to drive the power in the turn. When I can nail both of those things, more consistently than not, I'm feeling a very pure push. The ground reaction force that comes through the center of my outside foot sort of skews my center of mass and I feel it being pushed across the hill with a very, you know, sort of pure feeling. And I liken it to hitting a tennis ball right in the center of the racket or a golf ball right in the center of the club. The combination of power that you feel and balance at the same time is that pure feeling that I'm searching for. And I find those two those two sort of cues in my mind are what I, what I work on to try and most consistently find that power.

And how did you identify that this was something you wanted to work on, improve?

Yeah, well, again, experiment— a couple of things. Experimentation. And I, I'm a very visual guy, and I know we're all multimodal in our learning, you know, from the learning sciences. But I, I, I watch a of, like we all do as ski nerds, I watch a lot of high-end skiers on, um, on YouTube. And, you know, some might say I'm obsessed with the one particular gentleman by the name of Richard Berger. And one thing that strikes me with his skiing is how precisely he positions his hip relative to his outside foot. And he's immaculate with, with that placement. And I just think that puts him— he puts him in the driver's seat. And one thing I noticed with him is he never gets caught too far forward. Forward. He regulates his knee flexion just to keep the hips slightly behind and inside the arc, not too far that he's getting jetted and has the rug pulled out. And certainly he never gets that caught on the— hung on the front of the boot and, you know, losing the tail of the ski. So just trying to find the pocket of the hip position while still maintaining good control over the rotary of the outside leg is to me really defines it. And when I watch him, I just see it. I see it every turn, and that's what I'm trying to emulate. So I try and emulate it, and then I try and feel it, and then I try and reproduce it. And once I've, I've done that, then I can up the performance level and see if it holds true. And obviously you have to be ahead of the game in your mind in terms of the timing of these moves as the speed and cadence increases. And to me, that's the, the challenge of it. and that's where I'm playing. So, you know, I like to think— yeah, yeah.

Only because I saw some video of you the other day, it's probably on Instagram, right? Your skiing did look—

it did look different.

It looked, I don't know, it looked, uh, snappier.

Yeah.

Uh, which is kind of what you're saying you're looking for, right? Not, not so smoothy, you know?

Yeah, exactly. Bam, bam, bam, bam.

And when you hit it, you don't get thrown off balance. Um, so that's one thing I would say. I can definitely see that in your skiing of the most recent video. The other thing is, yeah, it's just interesting too, uh, you know, when we try and describe these things, like if people didn't really know, you know, I can get— Jeff can probably get marker pro, but you explain that to someone who's not really got much, like that just sounds like, yeah, whatever.

Like, yeah, I know, I know. Well, you know, it does, and it, it, you know, I wouldn't necessarily teach it that way, but that's how It feels to me—

Distilled into your— Exactly.

You've distilled it to like— Exactly. I think about it in those terms. I might present that, those concepts in different terms if I was to, depending on the audience, of course, but—

Probably over a week.

Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah.

You'd need that long, but it's so true. I like this idea of distilling because, you know, you take a lot of volume of something and then you just eke out like the essence of it. And then all you end up with is like two words.

Yeah.

Or this feeling or this, um, whatever, you know what I mean? And the sucky thing is we have to put words to that to try and explain to Jeff and to Mark what the heck we're talking about. But yeah, it's difficult.

Yeah. And there might be a couple of cues that I give myself to, you know, amp myself up before any particular run. Um, and then really it's a feeling. I get in the zone and then I just try and reproduce that feeling. So it's, it's, you know, it's a little, it's, it's hard to pin down. you know, the nuance. I mean, the, the, the day that they build a robot that can ski bumps, you know, they'll have, they'll have AI nailed in my opinion. Until that time, you know, we're it.

So, yep, yep. Jeff, what about yourself?

Yeah, well, I mean, it's funny too because I listen to everybody smiling, right? Like, we're all, we're all like actually emotionally involved in Guy's description of what he's working on in his skiing, which is, which is awesome. Awesome. Yeah, you know what, like, I don't know, I was thinking about it while engrossed in Guy's description. I was also kind of trying to boil it down to, yeah, what am I doing? And then maybe there's a couple of big picture things. Like, one is, like, I've always been a, I don't know, like a cautious skier, I guess, you know, like finesse and, you know, precision and that kind of thing. I'm trying to just put that aside. Like, I'm trying to go faster in the bumps. I'm trying to to, you know, like get messy when I, when I need to and, and be and let that be where I am in my, in my learning. And actually it's, it's, it's, it's been awesome, right? Like I've found new lines in the bumps. LPT training in Whistler, I skied with a couple of people out there in my group that, you know, I was helping them, they were helping me. They brought stuff to my game that, that I, you know, I was like, well, this is what I'm working on. And it was, it was phenomenal. It was super awesome. More specifically where I'm playing is, is I'm kind of in the pressure game these days where I'm really investigating, you know, how I can or how I do or how I want to move pressure around, you know, like to the tip of the ski, to the tail of the ski, you know, all that kind of stuff. Steeper terrain. You know, I've been watching a lot of just short clips, you like, I mean, Benny, you know, the Bend It Like Benny clips that have come out recently, like like, man, how he's pulling those short turns off on, on the snow. Um, like, that's exciting stuff. And I look at that and I'm like, sure, it probably doesn't fit the description of any ski-off run of any organization anywhere, and it's cool, right? Like, it's different, it's creative, it's exciting. And, and I'm trying to just get more of, of that. I mean, even some of your stuff, Tom. Like, I, I don't— I'm not on, you know, I'm not in your in as a member. But, you know, I watch your— I watch your clips and I pick up on little things like inside edge of the heel, you know, like that's a— that's a phrase that I, you know, I've just— I was watching real quick and it was like, oh, interesting. So I went out and I tried it, right? And so I'm trying it in short turns and I'm seeing what stuff does and I'm just really having fun messing around with those things. And what it is doing is it is— I'm finding more performance in more places on a longer ski as well. You know, like I'm— I find I'm driving a longer, longer radius ski ski better than I ever have. You know, I'm doing a shorter, more active, you know, exciting short turn on steeper pitches and stuff. And yeah, that's kind of where I want to go. And it's actually— I think that's what's showing up in my teaching now too. I think that's— I'm actually willing to speak in those terms, if I can put it that way. I'm not as galvanized in what I believe works, right? And that That is actually exciting. And so yeah, that's kind of where I'm at is, yeah, pressure games, you know.

Yeah, I like it. I like it.

Yeah.

Mark?

Yeah, well, I just think it's awesome listening to both Geoff and Guy get into what they're changing in their skiing. And, you know, I think it represents something that we've been doing this year as an organization, right? That, that, that permission to think, permission to change. But for me, you know, I always like to go kind of purpose, interaction, movement. And what I've been playing on, particularly this year, because particularly we've been building our kind of technical blueprint and, you know, getting, you know, skiing is really getting the snow to push on us and then balancing against that force, right? So it's force alignment and manipulation of that. So one of our movement principles as we get into the movement, so because you need, you know, purpose to provide perspective that gives you what you're moving. And for me, it's all around our concept of, you know, proximal stiffness for distal mobility. So in layman's terms, that's just having a, a stiff and strong core so you can use the extremities like your legs and feet and skis in this case with more athleticism or more mobility. So that, you know, proximal stiffness for distal athleticism or mobility. And what I've been doing to do that is, is, is biomechanically helping that process, and it works, and it works everywhere. So it's things like, you know, I know there's a bunch of people right now on the podcast after what I'm about to say, you'd be like, oh, I can't believe you're doing that. And it's dragging the inside pole with intention, like, and really using not just the proprioception that most people think it is, and it is, but it actually allows us another point of contact with the upper body ballasts and the mass that we can manipulate, um, and work against. So it gives us a lot more strength, right? It's the same as using the inside ski with purpose as you bring it back, but keep a bit bit of pressure on the tip, it allows the inside hip to be braced against the snow a little bit, which allows the outside leg to abduct better. And, and, and what it really does is, you know, at expert skiing— there's all skiing, but expert skiing, we notice it— that fine line between pure grip and a little bit of drift. And we really need that little bit of drift because that's the art of skiing. You know, it's not— honestly, it's not that difficult to carve a modern ski. What, what is more difficult is to, while you're during that carve, is to take it off and just let it drift a little bit to get a bit more steering angle. And this concept of proximal stiffness for distal mobility and the mechanisms we do that, whether the inside pole and/or, or both, normally the way we use the inside foot allows that abduction of the outside leg for me. And I've really noticed it when I want to do some drifted turns, but high-performance drifted turns. And it's been magical. And, you know, I'm, you know, if anyone's a ski nerd, I'm the epitome of a ski nerd. You know, kind of some of the, you know, my authorship in the past and different things is very much around the physics of skiing and all of that. And to bring in and to work with, you know, we asked earlier on, one of the things starting from scratch with the organization, what have you been able to do? Well, the first thing because happens to be one of, uh, kind of one of the, the leaders, one of the owners is Ed, who is a biomechanist. So to work with him on— I've always known about, you know, you know, uh, functional stiffness is what I call it in the core. And to him to explain to me what it really is, and then us push around me as the clinician, him as the scientist, this concept for the practical in the world, real world, it's magic. I'm excited to show you on when you ski and to show our best coaches how this works. Because, you know, I'm probably the oldest of this group and skied a lot, and a lot with intent, and these little movement pattern changes and understanding are improving my skiing even as I've just crept over 50. So, so that's amazing. Yeah, not really.

Tom, can I ask you what you're working on? Yeah, we have you here.

Yeah, sure. I think Jeff, maybe Jason even sort of alluded to this to you.

Jason Simpson was talking about it, but he didn't, he didn't actually allude to it. He raved about it. Just, oh, okay.

Okay.

But I'm guessing, but he raved about something and I'm gonna get to see if it's the same thing.

The floating heel. The floating heel. Yep. Okay. All right. So to give some context, here's the setup. So you take a child that, you know, is really athletic, can run around like, you know, 6-year-old, they can play soccer, and then the first time ever you put them in a pair of ski boots and they walk around, it's almost like when you put, you know, when you put socks on a dog and they kind of like walk awkwardly, like, what? You know, suddenly just can't walk normally. Yeah, yeah. So you do that to a child and they suddenly can't walk properly. So I think this happens to a lot of people just in general. We, we get put in this ski boot and you think like, okay, right, well, my ankle and my foot is kind of fixed in this position and I just work as best I can with that. However, I've been trying to get outside the, the, this idea and think the ski boot is just enough, is just an environment, just like my office is environment. If I go to the gym and I'm, and I'm working out on rubber mats or concrete or wood. That's just the surface, the environment I'm working on. Okay, so the ski boot, same thing, it's just kind of a bit tight. However, it means I still— I don't have to confine myself to standing on my whole foot the whole time, because I think most people, they stand in a ski boot and just stand heel, ball of the foot, and they stay there the whole time. And so, so there's one thing. And then out there is, is this idea that if the heel lifts that's a bad thing, right?

Most boot fitters—

oh shivers, your heel's lifting, we need to lock that down, shouldn't have heel lift, that's bad. Okay, so new, new idea to me came, it's like, in all the sports I play, if my heel can't lift at all, it's very difficult. Like the child putting on the ski boots on there, suddenly, oh, I can't lift my heel, can't move. So I'm thinking about being inside that ski boot and playing with what I call the floating heel.

Heel.

So I'm trying to balance more of the time, and I'd say probably 70% of the time in, in, say, like, especially shorter— the shorter the turn, the more it's, uh, the heel is less, is less on the ground. Trying to be up on the front of the foot and using the toes. That's another thing. Who's, who's been told, like, don't— if you're gripping your toes, you do it, you're doing it wrong, right? I've even told people, I've said, don't do that, that's wrong. Maybe even lift toes. I reckon that's bullshit, uh, because again, if you're, if you're bouncing forward with nothing more, what is stopping you from falling on your face? Your toes. And a lot of the time with skiing, steeper it gets, the more forward you need to be in order to be gliding with that slope. So you have to kind of be up there on the top of the turn especially. So I'm trying to have a floating heel. I'm trying to actively be sensing where my big toe and how much is being used. If I'm feeling it, it means I'm right up at the precipice of, of that balance point. I'm really pushing the limits of being right up on the front of the foot. And so this floating heel allows this freedom. You got to try this. Your leg can move with ease, just like if you put your leg in the air. If you have your leg in the air, you know what Mark was talking about, you know, the inside leg being more of a fixed point creates freedom for the outer one. As soon as the heels— both heels are free, the, the legs have massive amounts of freedom And then like back to Guy's thing, choosing that like sting moment and lining the hip up and the inside edge of the heel, then I'm like storing ready, like pulling back a punch and then bam, dropping it at a certain point. Whereas if I'm standing there already, it's like, it's the, the magic part's over and I'm, and I'm passive and I'll probably end up making a rotational movement to try and get something to happen. That's not an ideal thing. Anyway, it's helped massively in the bumps. So when I ski down bumps, the first thing I do is I get my heel off the bottom of my boot, I get more, more on my toes, and I start skiing down. Because as soon as you hit a bump, your heel comes down straight away, so you've got to actively get off of it. And, and the way I know this season, getting over the first 2 days, my calves were just so sore after 2 days skiing because it just was just all the way up on the front of the foot the whole time.

Time.

So yeah, that's, that's, that's what I've been working with and, and, and really enjoying it.

Nice. Oh, I look forward to trying that. Absolutely. It's definitely an out-of-the-box thought. So yeah, it's exciting, exciting to play around and, you know, you probably got there just through experimenting. Okay, what happens if I do this? Oh, that felt good. Okay, follow that node a little bit, see where it takes me. Can I build this into something that I can use from this point forward? You know, and that's—

I should, I should actually give full full credit to the— I have this mentor that is this amazing athletics coach. I think he skied a couple of times in his life, but he just understands movement of anything. You can show him video of anything and he's like, oh, that's what's going on. And he looks at everything through levers and, and physics and just sees things very different. And he was telling— tell me about the heel, and but more to do with athletics and running and all that sort of stuff. And I went, hang on, well, if that's a principle that works there, probably in skiing works the same. Just be athletic inside your ski boots. Don't be, uh, flat-footed. And, uh, and just, just so for the people listening, this is what I see now so clear as day with, uh, the, uh, the Canadian system that I usually used to— like, I've done my Level 3 with— because a lot of it is, where's the balance point? Everyone gets told to stand on the back of the arch. And you can't be— try and play tennis standing on the back of your arch, try and run a marathon always trying to stand on the back of your arch, and do any kind of sport. It's, it's a point you hit, but it's, it's not— I don't think it's your home position. I actually think more in front. So anyway, that was, that's an interesting thing. People listening can, can, can leave that or delete that. Uh, yeah, but yeah, any, anything you guys would Comments on—

yeah, no, that's, that's great. Two comments. I would agree with you. If we stay static at one point, um, it is that it's not dynamic, it's static. Because, you know, we need to be able to use the tool, which is the ski, and sometimes we need to be using the forebody predominantly, probably at the start of the turn, if we want to use kind of bend them like Benny or whatever, kind of the Benny. And then, you know, as we progress kind of the mid to the completion of the turn, you want to be moving that force alignment back to arrest some of that drift and get a little bit more kind of grip and maybe even kind of straighten the ski path out. So if you, if you, if you, if you put yourself in one position and we look at how the exquisitely the tool is designed, which is our ski, when we're not able to utilize it properly, if you're staying in one position the whole time, you know, you look at the, you look at the big stivets at the World Cup and their magic with the high-definition cameras now, and you'll notice them, you know, they come across the hill and they get a big steering angle and they're trying not to grip the snow at all because they don't want to slow themselves down. But you see them feathering it right on the tip and then bringing it down and that tip bites and then the mid-body bites and then the ski really grips and propels them and they get onto the tail a little bit and they do it all over again. So they're certainly using the entire length of the tool or the ski and kind of some of your iterations there. If we're just standing at one fixed point and actually training to stay at one fixed point under our heel, we're missing on a, a lot of adaptability and creativity in our skin.

Yeah.

How do you get the, how do you get the, the floating heel though? How do you do that in your boot? Do you, do you give yourself a little bit more room somehow?

No, uh, not necessarily. No, I haven't changed anything in the boot setup. It's actually because I've taught this to a lot of people with, um, some pretty good results. Um, and I would say that like even before thinking about this, I was always trying to, and I think all of us probably here, manipulating the whole entire length of the ski. So this is going— this is, this is another— this is how you almost want to think different. It's beyond that. It's almost like, just imagine the ski is traveling. Like, say it's just like it was just going straight across bumps, okay? So we're not trying to make the ski turn or anything, we're just going straight through bumps. And you have to go on a ride on this ski. You're bolted in with your boot. How are you going to stand to have a comfortable ride going across that? It's back to like as simple as that. So if you stand flat-footed, you could hip hinging, slamming forward, bam, bam, bam. Like as soon as you jump off a, a set of stairs, off a box, naturally the human body wants to land ball of foot and then heel later.

Yeah, that's how we absorb force. We need the arch of our foot to take that up. So you're doing that in skiing, that, you know, coming back to a biomechanical principle there. Exactly.

Yep, yep. So it's down to— it's beyond it's like, how does this also then help using the ski more and just the human body have a better ride? And this other, like, you'll be— the most amazing thing I think I find is like all these, these people that would get dinged for like, hey, you need to separate your lower body from your upper body in your turns more, hey, you're like hip rotating, you're doing this sort of stuff, hey, just start the turn, don't have any pressure on your heels, float your heels and just let this— and try and turn the skis. And they all suddenly, they're all— their legs just because as soon as you're on the ground with the heel, it gets, it gets, it gets more, more stuck.

So, so another— right on that, you just— again, you tweak something and, and you're going to sound like a sales pitch, but, but it's not. It's just excitement in, in what we're, we're talking about and creating and using. And that's our, you know, function leads form. So, you know, particularly in— and there's nothing wrong with form. Look at all of us, we're all, you know, fully certified in, in numerous organizations, and we love that technical But if we really look at it, the lens of the learner, we really need to be developing function first and then clean it up later. And that's when the form comes in. When we get those two mixed up, you know, we start to major in the minor and minor in the majors. So let's start with function leads form and let's make it happen first and then fine-tune it and clean it up later. And it's kind of exactly what you articulated there, you know, like, how are you going to do it? You need to do something. So do that first.

Exactly. Yeah. We should, Jeff, you had your—

Well, you know, actually I want to go back to something. One that we started with and two, Tom, that you said about your— this actually been on my mind since you said it. And it's a little bit about what, like, what makes us different. And we haven't really been approaching it, you know, what we're doing. We're doing things that we believe will work and that we believe are meaningful. And we're looking for feedback on that every time we do things. And so far so good, if I I can put it that way, right? Like, it's, it's becoming organic, and we're leading it as much as it's leading us. But Tom, like you said, you mentioned something about— and, and I mean, thanks for opening up on that, because you mentioned you've never really talked about it, which is that sort of, I don't know, guilt of, of leaving the organization and doing your own thing. But it's kind of led me to this. I don't know if I can articulate this very well, but I think one of the things that does make us different is that we exist. And that's a weird thing to say, but people have— when people have choice they think differently, right? When they have an option to, to involve over here or over there or both, which would be, which is great too. It actually does put people in a place where they can make decisions that are, are potentially not the same decisions that they would make if there was only one option.

Right.

And, and, and you, you, I think what you've done with, you know, Big Picture Skiing and I remember sitting, I don't know if you remember this, but sitting in on, on a chairlift was, was the, the first place I met you. I can't remember which session we were in at Interski, but we're in Argentina and we're sitting on the chair and you pull out your camera and you start interviewing me, you know, like what, what's sort of the physical regime that I'm going through to be prepared for this and how am I training and what have I been doing? Like, it was a great interview and it was my first experience at Interski. And now I'm sitting with, you know, this dude from Australia and I'm being interviewed on camera and all that.

That.

But, um, what, what I think is, is, um, is cool to see you having done is that you've brought, I'll say, an option to the marketplace. And what it does is it actually makes people think differently. It makes people be more creative. It makes people be a little bit more free with what they do. It makes them ask that kind of what-if question. Um, and so I'll bring this back around. What I, what I actually think is a little bit different is just the fact that when, when there's another option, when there's another venue to go to, or there's another source of information, um, it has a very interesting and I think valuable interplay between those two things. Um, it does help us question what we're doing and what— and, and it helps people decide where they want to go and how they want to do it. So I actually look at what you've done actually in a very similar light to what we're doing with the PSIC is it's actually just providing another way for people to learn more. And I, and I think that's a, that's a really cool thing. You know, when we get into this whole, you know, Mark mentioned it before, like at level 4, we want to, we want to be creative at level 4. We don't want to be refined in a way that's actually limiting to being, to having to do it like this. And you know what, there's benefit to that too. I'm not trying to be negative about any other systems, but it's it's we're seeing some neat results by kind of going like this on the creativity scale versus like this. And, uh, yeah, so I just wanted to say that because I think you— yeah, I think we'd all feel that a little bit, right? Like when I, when I left my previous role, I, I was, I was as committed as anyone to the organization at that time, and it took a lot to do that. And I did it for, for some pretty specific reasons. And I've got— I'm going through that, and I've gone through that as well. But I'm finding when I'm part of something that still has meaning and it gives people options to do stuff. It's actually super exciting. And like this conversation alone, I could be guaranteed I'm going out tomorrow and I'm gonna try to, I'm, I'm gonna be floating around, you know, getting the, getting the toes down and the heels up, which is not what I do, right?

Yeah.

So anyway, that's great. Like I, I think, I think it's, it's, it's awesome.

I hear what you're saying.

Thanks for doing what you're doing as well. It's great.

Yeah, no, I, I, I hear that and I think it's, that takes, it's quite It takes some bravery, what you guys have done, because I mean, I know a lot of the time people just see the happy side of things, but you know, what I've done has caused, you know, rifts in relationships. There's always, it's never smooth sailing, but to build something great and new that you really want is never easy. If it was, everyone would be doing it. To do great things, you've got to do hard things. Things. And the harder it is, probably the greater the, the outcome is going to be. So I, yeah, I think it's awesome you guys have done that. But I mean, maybe, I don't know if any of you guys want to also speak to that, because you probably have had some, you know, people just probably maybe even not want to be friends with you anymore because of a decision you've made that they can't see the full picture on. Um, Guy, Mark, anything on, on that?

Yeah, I mean, we, I mean, part of part of our attitude sort of launching into this venture is, um, is trying to minimize any type of tension between we and any other organization. And, you know, we, we're just— we're not, we're not forcing anyone to do anything. We're, we're asking people to have a look at what we're doing, and if they feel it fits in and aligns with their values and what they want out of this industry, then we're here with, with, with open arms. Um, so from that point of view, you know, I just— I guess I do feel what you just described to a certain degree in Whistler. Um, and I think there are some people who feel like, um, there is a bit of a division there, but to the extent that we are able to dissolve that, that's really what we're here to do. So, you know, I don't feel any animosity to anyone depending on where they decide they want to work and which pathway they feel they want to follow. You know, so yeah, we're just trying to do our best to try and mitigate any of that awkwardness that may otherwise potentially be inevitable.

So, Mark, any comments there?

Yeah, I think, Guy, listen, we want to We respect all of our peers, and that means kind of locally, regionally, domestically, and internationally. We want to work with everyone. We are a professional development organization, and our open posture is for collaboration. You know, we want to be leaders in the global space of collaborating with everyone. And just as we've done our equivalency package across the planet with all these other organizations and you know, really positive reception. And, and we're hoping that, that, that happens here too domestically, because we're, we're— that's our posture, and we would like nothing more than that. And when, when maybe the other domestic carrier views it the same way, we can make some positive steps. But in the meantime, we're open and willing, um, right from the word go.

Yeah, great. Well, I'd— yeah, I it's just, yeah, I commend you for doing it because I know it is not an easy thing to just go off and start something new if it is going against things and it causes people to, you know, but make a choice. But as Jeff said, the freedom in choice is, it's very nice to have that as an option. We're kind of coming up to, you know, quite a bit of time here chatting. We should probably wrap it up. We can maybe keep some other things too. To, to other, uh, another time. But is, is there, you know, you should probably mention where people can find the PSIC, uh, on the internet and maybe social media. Let's hear that.

Okay, I guess it's me. Um, psic.pro, uh, is where you can go. And if you want to get a hold of us directly and ask us any questions, um, info @psic.pro. And, and from there, um, it's mostly Mark, um, manning that at the moment, and he can, can sort of, uh, um, triage the emails that come in so you can get a hold of, of any of us or our teammates, um, uh, from there.

Fantastic. And you've got social media too?

Yeah, yeah. I'm the least one to talk about that, but we're— yeah, we're, we're obviously on Facebook and, and Instagram. And, uh, Jeff, what's our Instagram handle? You know, if you'd look up Professional Ski Instructors of Canada or PSIC, it'll come up.

But, uh, yeah, fantastic. Well, I've really enjoyed the conversation. It's been like, you know, yeah, really interesting to hear the journey and how it's, um, sort of unfolded so far. And like you said, you've still got some— the, the completion stages to go, so it'll be really interesting to hear how, how that goes. And then probably sending PSIC certified instructors are going to be going to New Zealand and Australia this winter too, which is pretty exciting. Um, and, and of course, the, the most enjoyable part is, as you met, you know, we're all smiling and, and really intrigued when we talk about skiing. So, uh, I just want to thank Mark, Guy, and Jeff, you guys, for spending the time talking with us today.

Yeah, and likewise, um, to speak for all of us, thank you, Tom. It's, it's, it's awesome. We appreciate, um, your time and kind of, as Jeff said, what you've building a community yourself that's, that's global and inclusive. So yeah, thank you.

Yeah, thanks, Tom. Very good. You're such a positive force in the business right now, and as a fellow countryman, I'm proud of you, buddy.

Thanks a lot. Okay guys, until next time.

This episode is sponsored by Carv, the digital ski coach, and one of the updates I've really enjoyed this season is the addition of separate SkiIQs for moguls and short turns. In the past, Carv scoring was mainly built around carving metrics, which meant everything was viewed through that lens. But Carv have gone deep on that research and completely separated what makes a great short turn or mogul turn different from a carved turn. To give you an idea of how accurate it's become, the person at the top of the Carv leaderboard right now isn't a carving specialist, it's Olympic mogul skier Matt Graham. So the best SkiIQ in the world at the moment is coming from someone who lives and breathes bumps, and to be honest, my own highest SkiIQ is also in the moguls, which makes sense because that's my favorite type of skiing. What's really exciting this year is the addition of turn tempo, so basically your turns per minute. It's such a simple external output that's incredibly fun to play with. So good skiing isn't just about edge similarity or parallel skis, it's about how you interact with the terrain and whether you can change your tempo on demand. So seeing numbers like my quickest tempo of 117 turns per minute in the bumps gives you something concrete to compare, refine, and work toward. I've been working with Carv since 2020, and every year I'm genuinely impressed with how much the product evolves. They keep expanding what you can measure, and they're covering more and more of the turn types that skiers actually use all over the mountain. So if you're interested in tracking not just your carving but every turn you make on the snow, check out Carv. And a big thanks to the team for supporting this episode.