Tom Gellie Interviewed by JF

Hey guys, JF Beaulieu here, and it's time for Tom Gellie interview. Tom has been doing such great work interviewing everybody all over the world, but now Tom, it's your turn. So it's good to have you.

Yeah, awesome. Tables have turned.

So like, I really, I have to admit that Tom has been like very inspiring over the last 2 years we've been discussing skiing together and every time I have discussions with you, like I always, you make me reflect a lot and I really appreciate our discussions so this one will be on record so that's going to be interesting to hear what you've been up to.

Yeah, definitely. I think it's always valuable to have these things on record because I've had a lot of emails, it's been really cool, from listeners all over the world saying that they've really enjoyed the podcasts and gained a heap of insight into what some of the better skiers are doing and just some different views on things. And yeah, it's really cool, and I've just been getting hassled lately to to put out another one. People are hungry for more information and more ski nerd stuff, so it's great we're doing it again.

Yeah, I'm really, really glad we have the chance to discuss. So I just want to know what you've been playing with in your skiing lately. What have you been working on, and like, tell us a little bit about What do you use as strategies to develop those elements?

Yeah, sure. Well, I guess it's good to perhaps start out with where my skiing was a few years ago compared to now. And I would say, I would use kind of the words of perhaps forced bit rigid and, um, yeah, just not as much flow. So I was so focused on trying to be disciplined and holding my body still in this correct picture that I'd kind of forgotten, um, just really about flow and, and movement of the whole body to get everything functioning and, and working more efficiently. Um, so that's where I I was, and I feel I'm getting more towards a relaxed, really in tune, supple way of skiing. So what's, I guess, led to that is a couple of things. People like that I ski with back in Australia, like Paul and Riley, giving me feedback on that sort of stuff. And then I guess taking that feedback and and using myself and going exploring some movement outside of skiing. So, I guess it all started when I first was rolfed, which is a funny word. Rolfers are people that work on your body alignment and the balance of all your skeleton in gravity. So, I had someone in Silver Star, Claudia, who's incredible, Rolf, work on me and help me iron out and I guess feel some of the imbalances I had that I wasn't really aware of. So we all get picked on for, you know, a left turn not being as good as the right, or we can't start a turn as well on our left foot as our right. And you know, all the exercises in the world you do sometimes just you can't quite get it, it feels forced. And so, through stepping outside of skiing and just looking at how my body moves and works, just in everyday life, I found those same sort of blockages were there. So, a few years ago, going and seeing a rolfer helped me to start that path of discovering how to feel, how to move more efficiently and more balanced. Side to side and feel my structure is definitely connected from head to toe, and that you can't move one part of your body without it affecting somewhere, somewhere else in the chain. So, so really understanding that our body is a whole system, and that if you're trying to train it, you need to be in tune and aware of, of what you're doing down at the foot, what it affects up you know, in the neck or the shoulders and the spine. So that's been a big thing for me lately. And so then I studied rolfing because I thought it was, I don't know if you thought this in the past, but I thought that if you always had an issue, say one leg was stronger than the other, or you know, people say, oh, I can't balance well on my left leg. And no matter how hard I try, it never gets better. I was kind of— I thought, okay, I'm going to have to stick with these imbalances. Maybe surgery would be something that would fix it. But the cool thing is the body is totally adaptable and changeable. It just gets really used to what it does the most, and it's very lazy in that respect. So if you started out skiing and right from early on you initiated a turn with your left foot differently to the right, and you kept doing that for years and years and years until someone, when you got to your Level 4, said, "Hey, the way you roll your left foot over the top of the turn is not quite right." You've got so many years of inbuilt motor patterns that are so hard to change, but the cool thing is, can be changed. Can be changed. If you give the body a better option, an option that is more efficient, so it doesn't take more energy but is actually easier and puts less stress on the system and is more balanced, the body will automatically choose that.

So how long does it take you, for example, to change a movement pattern?

So that's pretty interesting because I just, you know, you've heard of that 10,000-hour rule. Yeah. So there's obviously grades along that scale. I don't know if I totally believe in that anymore because I've had some moments working on something, an alignment issue on, I keep saying left foot, that's because where I'm kind of working on my left foot, where I'll work on some movements of of that foot doing a particular move, so supination move with, with my pelvis in a certain position and my spine kind of in a certain position, my head a certain way, my shoulders a certain way. And I can do that for 3 minutes, and if I get really in tune with that for those 3 minutes, and it's not just a repetitive movement that I'm just doing because I should do 50 of these and that's going to count towards 50 of getting there, Those 50, if they're not exactly the right one, they're useless, completely useless. So for that 3 minutes, if I'm in tune every time, it's slightly different, it's more towards a kind of a strange feeling that I'm not used to each time, then in that 3 minutes I can walk away and my body feels completely different. My leg will feel lighter, my head will feel like it's in a different space, my spine, I can video myself and my spine will feel like it's moving left and right evenly, but probably actually will feel like it's actually flexing more to the left than usual, but in the video it's even. And that sort of thing, those are the sort of things you want to look for. You've got to be outside of your comfort zone to be changing something, because your proprioception keeps you— if I give you the analogy of like a sphere around yourself being your, your kind of proprioception awareness. And if from the center of my mass to all these different points on the sphere are kind of colored lines coming out of all different colors, and they're potential movements I can make, and if I only have, say, I don't know, you know, like 1,000, and there's a spot right over here in this corner of the sphere that is kind of missing a whole bunch of— there's no lines really going in there. Then every— anytime I go near that, my brain is going to go, "We're unsure of this territory. Let's just deviate a little bit this way, and we'll just go into the same space we know." And we'll think we're going into that area, but we're not. We're just going into the same spot that we've done before. So, you've got to venture into these areas. It's like, "Wow, that feels really different. I just lost my balance." I had to tilt my head way further to the right than I'm used to when I'm in this position. That was one repetition of something that was brand new. And so I'm trying to look for those things, those different feelings in movement, and then in skiing, try and translate that into skiing, in order to know that I'm actually moving forward in my skiing. Gotta feel different.

So you say that, uh, like changing your skiing, um, can take like— it's kind of a bit those 10,000-hour rule. It's kind of huge.

Yeah.

But for sure, I guess it depends where you start from. A guy like you, if you decide you want to change something in your short turns, for example, Yeah. Like, what kind of time frame are you looking at to create a change in high-level skiing?

Yep. Okay, for instance, one thing this last winter that Paul was helping me with in my short turns was just being able to roll over more actively. Letting my ankles and knees fall into the inside of the turn in a low position. So that whole kind of component in the transition, I could do that movement in a, like, a kind of a more basic— so on the edge, I could get the movement happening at a slower speed on a blue pitch, steep to, you know, like a good blue pitch with some steering involved, so not purely carved. Pretty quick because I'm in tune with my body and I know how to make that movement. And I reckon it probably took every day for— it was only like, I don't know, a week before I really noticed in the video it was really present. So I don't think that long because I knew exactly what movement I wanted to do. I was familiar because I would sit at the couch on the couch at home, and I would go through the movements in my head, doing it and picturing myself doing it on the slope and how it would move. And I could tell one side was harder because even sitting on the couch, I couldn't really imagine it very well. So it took me some time in my head just to actually think about what exactly am I doing, where are my hips, where am I looking, like what does that feel like. It felt strange to even think about it on the couch and try and do it. The other side was okay. So once I worked on that at home, then out skiing, yeah, I definitely felt within a week I'd started changing it to a visible viewpoint on a camera. And then, yeah, probably by the time Interski came around, it was pretty well in there. Obviously some more things I'd like to refine with it, but it was a totally different move and I added it in within, yeah, a few months.

That's interesting. Like, I'm hearing that you're using some imagery, like, in order to— I strongly believe we can change our skiing when we're not on the slopes. So that's a little bit what I hear with your comment there.

Yeah, definitely. Definitely, yeah. Imagery is massive. It's all good and well to kind of know what your body, you know, should be doing and you can practice on the spot. But you've got to be able to kind of picture it. And like this idea of proprioception, this sphere around you, you've got to know how that movement fits in with your environment. So how that movement, when you picture yourself on that black slope, how that movement would be kind of performed in your head. Where would the snow, how far would the snow be away relative to your knees as you roll them? You know, how far away would your head be from that point? Would your head be kind of more over your inside knee? Would it be more over your outside knee? Like, if you can just build a picture of where everything is sitting so detailed, even from the back, like from the back, what does it look like? How much of The back of my jacket, do I see? Do I see my right wrist in that picture? Is the right wrist covered, like disappeared from the back view because it's moving right over the top of my body? Is it left behind, you know? So, you build a really good picture and I think that's huge.

That's interesting. So, what— Like, I hear like Paul was asking you to roll from a bit of a lower position, so that has been one of the things you've played with?

Yeah, definitely, definitely. So, and the thing I like, it's not something that I'm going to do all the time, but it is something that I'm— that is, it's an element in my skiing that that I don't really have at the moment. So, in that sphere, it's this area down in front low that when I get out on skis that I don't really know how to do well or have now gotten better at doing. And so that low movement, yeah, I think it's really interesting that Paul has started playing with that and you can really see it in his short turns. How, how well he transitions and crosses over in a short turn, how early his, his ski's gotta get on edge. And, um, yeah, and it's, it's quite cool because, um, I guess, uh, from like the biomechanical standpoint, yeah, when you're in that low position, um, like your, your, your lower leg, your tibia is is looser, it's unlocked, and has allowed a certain, a little amount of rotation, which also allows your foot to pronate more and roll over. So you can kind of hack the body a little bit to access a little bit more pronation at the start of your turn, yeah, to get on the edge earlier, yeah.

We've been talking, like, last discussion we've had, like, I was so inspired about, like, you were talking about foot pronation and you've done a video that you post on, on YouTube about this. Like, can you talk a little bit about what you've personally been doing on that topic and how it affects your skiing?

Yeah, so, um I guess in the video I kind of explain at first a lot of people think that foot pronation is purely more just like the foot rolling over. So a movement that is more lateral than anything else. So when your foot is kind of resting in a non-pronated position, it's kind kind of— it's unloaded. It's almost like a 3-legged table. So if you Google right now a picture of the skeletal foot and you get a view from the top of it and you look down on top of it, you will see that it is like a 3-legged table. The heel, behind the pinky toe, and behind the big toe being the 3 points. And there's almost like a missing table leg on the inside half of the heel. So, so that inside part there is deliberately built into the human system because with that instability of the foot kind of being on a three-legged table, as soon as you weight it, the weight wants to drop the foot and roll it into that missing table leg space. So as your foot does that, you can imagine as bones fall into that space, muscles have to react and catch the bones from falling completely flat against the floor. So someone who has a really flat pronated arch, the muscles in their foot never, for whatever reason, got a chance to be loaded in that way. So the way that, that person pronated never really allowed that kind of this trampoline effect of the bones falling and the muscles catching the bones of the, bones of the feet. So if you can get your foot to just naturally fall into this 3-legged table spot and load that inside sort of inner arch, then your whole foot not only rolls to the side, but it lengthens. Like it spreads long, and all those muscles stretch long like, like a catapult being loaded up. And so if you can do that early on, your whole body— it's amazing the chain reaction that goes up through the leg, through the hip, through the spine, that switches on all these muscles to stabilize and kind of suspend and hold your body there as everything's kind of falling down. So that sets you up for being— them reacting and contracting later on and giving yourself, you know, power and explosiveness. So I've just been playing with pronation as I guess a trigger to set my body off so I know everything is, is balanced and working right.

What are the steps you're using in order to like use that movement?

So I mean, if we go back to just what humans are built to do, we're built to walk. So I'll simply just work on having one foot forward, one foot back, just as though I was taking a step, and have my center of mass behind my front foot, and then bring it over the top of my lead foot. And as the center of mass is coming over the top of it, just feeling my foot make this pronation, or fall, where the bones lengthen and drop to the floor, and all the muscles kind of gently lengthen. and my whole body is kind of caught and balanced really well on top of that foot. And I'll just repeat that back and forth in front of a mirror, in front of a camera, whatever, and watch it and just see, are all the bones just being— are they all articulating, and is the body just smoothly allowing that to happen? So I'll do that, and it really takes patience. You can't force pronation. There are no muscles that actually make the foot pronate. It is a letting go movement. So if you take that into skiing, in the transition, I guess, as you, as you're finishing a turn, you're wanting your new outside ski to grip and your body to be balanced over that point. Just like you're walking forward, you step off your right foot onto your left foot. Your body needs to be ready and balanced over that left foot in order for you to take the weight off your right foot. You're not going to take the weight off the right foot if your left foot is not a good balance platform? You're going to be on it for a second, then you're just going to get off of it. Yep, so you might be on it for a second, but you're unbalanced, you're not there completely solid and happy. So there's definitely an element of timing and being relaxed when you allow that pronation to occur. So, so how many times have you told people at the start of the turn not to rush it? Right, so many people rush that start of the turn. It's probably because they're not balanced on that new outside foot. There's no time for that foot to pronate. If your toes are gripping, if you're, you know, like you're clawing the bottom of your boot, you're back behind your feet, your feet grip, there's no relaxation opening of all the bones on the bottom of your foot to set off this triggered reaction of your whole body being ready. So you've got to I guess it's fun in a medium turn to just play with this really relaxed, taking your time, being balanced, letting the foot pronate and all the bones open before you turn. Just like, I mean, Ted Ligety just came into my head then. As you see him start a turn, he's not rushed to get in there. He just lets everything open up and be balanced. and then all the kind of the power starts. So you've got to give the system time to load. If you try and load it too soon by tensing up, you know, there's no spring to it. It's like trying to— Yeah. Jumping on a trampoline versus jumping on, you know, like concrete. It's like totally different.

That's super interesting. So that's the way you kind of set up the system. Once you're on the new edge and the pressure belt and the foot is into pronation, you're engaging into the turn. What are the elements that you are focusing on in order to have a smooth ride?

A smooth ride, uh, yeah. So it's pretty cool if you set that up that part up pretty well. The rest is definitely a lot smoother. And I say in the video as well, I don't think that this pronation lasts for that long. So your foot pronates, you get on the edge, but as you— as with the analogy of the bones opening and the muscles stretching and lengthening to give you some sort of balance and spring, That's a good springiness to start and balance the turn, but later on as the pressure builds, your body needs to become more rigid. So you need a stronger outside leg. And so now, I don't know if everyone totally agrees with me, but I think your foot actually starts supinating a little bit from the foreline towards the end. Because, only because, if your foot doesn't change from being open, all the bones relaxed and the muscles stretched, to being then contracted and all the bones closed and the foot creates a nice strong arch, the rest of your system has to kind of lock up and be really rigid as a result. So I guess the start of the turn, the initiation, your foot is the loose thing to allow everything else to kind of relax and be on top. And then your foot, once it's found its spot, becomes more rigid so the rest of your body can relax and you can move more inside and get everything set up for higher edge angles and build up of pressure. So yeah, I think after pronation, your foot enters a little bit of a supination phase where your arch is not rolling in further, it's actually starting to do the opposite, and it depends on your goal, but the timing of when you start to supinate is going to mean how cleanly you exit the turn. So if you're able to exit the turn not on your edges, but coming off and onto a flat ski, which gives you glide and direction and flow across the hill. If you keep trying to pronate, then you keep falling inside and you kill that energy. So the timing of the supination is something I've been playing with, and some of the best turns I feel I've made on video were in Japan playing with this. So from the fall line, I was actually trying to press my outside foot flat, and I know that goes against the ski edge, but as I did that, a chain reaction went up through my lower leg, through my thigh, my hip stabilized itself, my glutes turned on, my spine kind of balanced itself on top of that outside leg. Everything went like, like this big strong lever, and the ski really gripped and pushed me across. I didn't feel like I had less edge, I felt like I had stronger, more powerful, um, edge.

So that's super interesting, and Like what I— what you describe over there, I think is the key to connect turns cleaner. Sometimes we hold on a little bit too long and then we end up releasing a little bit quick, like we get kind of, uh, like the center of mass rises a little bit, like we don't deflect and connect as well on the new ski zone. That's really interesting.

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, depending on your goal, that, that pronation, the length of how long you just stay relaxed there is going to change depending what you, you want as the outcome. And when you start to supinate and, and turn your whole body into a more of a whole rigid structure rather than a suspending structure, that's going to change depending on when you want the ski to release and when you want the energy to shoot shoot you across the hill. But yeah, you take— if you try and get in a position like a long stacked position on your outside leg, like all the World Cup racers are in, and even just standing there, you try and pronate your foot or roll your foot over, you will feel that your knee doesn't like it. You will feel that your hip internally rotates and starts pinching against the inside of your hip joint. It's just not the way the human body moves. There has to be some element of allowing a bit of, um, strangely, external rotation when you're still turning in the other direction in order for your whole body to just be happy and balanced against that outside edge.

So super, very, very interesting. And like when you come just before the finish of the turn, what do you feel when you're going, let's say, from, from your maximum edge to the release and connection to the new turn? What are you trying to feel in that part of the turn in your skiing?

Uh, that part I'm already thinking about setting my new outside foot up to be ready so it is going to pronate properly. It's in a position ready to take my new, the balance of where my mass is going to be pushed. Because after I get a good redirection and slingshot from one turn, my mass is moving in that direction. So I need to start thinking about, you know, it being ready to be right over the top of what's going to be my new outside foot. So yeah, once that's happening, I'm totally just setting up the next new outside foot.

You're thinking ahead.

Yeah, thinking ahead. And then, I mean, and then I try not to think too much. I try and do that with a few drills because, as I said, once your body feels the more efficient way of doing things, it will choose that. But if you never really experience it and it's not in your sphere of things to do, then it won't choose it. So it's definitely going to be a bit harmful if you have to think about it all the time too much, and you're obviously never getting to that, that new outside your comfort zone spot if you have to keep thinking about it. Definitely need to feel like you're entering some space where you can just your body is like, I know where that is, I know where that foot is ready, so it loads up and I'm totally balanced on top. And I know that, you know, when I want to feel that ping, that slingshot across the heel, I don't have to think about supinating my foot. My body just knows how to create that position and go.

Last time we talked, you were talking to me about like balancing a little bit more like on the outside part of your heel first.

Yep.

In order to get a little bit more range in your, in your foot pronation.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, um, if, uh, if, if early edge, to give an analogy, is a town you want to visit, so you want to visit early edge at the top of your turn You need to be in another town of like before early edge, which lives, you know, a couple of centimeters away in order to feel that your body has visited early edge. If you're already in the town of early edge, which I think a lot of people are, they do it too early, then you never experience it. You're already there. So, you need to be out of that spot. And so pronate— pronation being the foot rolling in and lengthening and dropping to that three-legged tail. You've got to be back from that spot before it happens in order to fit your body to have a reaction. It's already reacted before that point, it's too late. Like, you—

this is really interesting. So I've been playing with that since we talked, and you're right, like sometimes I'm thinking about being on the edge early, but I'm not using the catapult effect of that full pronation. So if I don't try to force it and I start a little bit more towards the outside part of my foot, yep, it feels so much more powerful. I feel I have so much more range.

Yep, yep, absolutely. Just like you can't, you can't jump up to dunk a basketball without bending down first. You can't reach your end goal if you don't kind of go backwards and, and go up. So your, your outside of your heel is kind of that, that loading point for just one vector of direction to help pronation. It's not the whole thing, but it's definitely one aspect that I think people are missing. They're perhaps trying to get onto that pronated foot foot, that early edge, too soon rather than being just outside of it first, so that when their balance hits it, and I know people, if we put it up as a video they'll be able to see, but if that's the outside of my heel, is sort of behind my pinky toe on my hand, pinky finger, if that hits the ground first, then the way the heel bone is shaped, even the design of it, It wants to just roll into that space. But if you hit it here already flat, there's no— there's nowhere to suspend. So your foot won't be part of the action. You'll probably have to do something else in your body to get a reaction. You need— like, your muscles work like that. They need kind of stimulus. They need lengthening in order to react to it. They're already lengthened. All they want to do next is contract. So if your foot is already pronated and contracted down, it's the next thing it's going to want to do is try and come up to try and get some kind of loading, or you're going to have to move your knee in more, or you're going to have to move your hips in more. You're going to have to move something to load to get a reaction. So if you can start really early with the foot, then that's probably the best place you can, you can begin.

I've tested that, and honestly I have to admit, in long turns, it's like incredible. In short turns, sometimes it gives me so much power and so much grip that my ski kind of settle into the snow, and I'm sometimes having trouble with controlling the direction. So what do you— when you use that concept in your short turn, How do you make sure that you're able to control the speed? Because you will be balanced super early, but you generate a lot of speed using that.

Same as you, I haven't figured it out yet. That's definitely— yeah, yeah.

But you know, one thing I kind of figured out, like, it's if I try to be like I'm going from the outside part of my heels towards the inside part of the foot, but I'm not actually kind of trying to focus too much on the outside foot. I'm actually trying to pull the inside— the outside foot with the motion of my inside one. Is that something that you are playing with?

So, so explain it to me again. So you're finishing a turn and you're, you're pulling your inside foot back.

Is that my— my, uh, in fact, like, I try to use the inside foot as the decider.

Yeah.

And the outside foot as the rider.

Okay. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, definitely.

Do you play with that in your skiing?

Yes, yes, absolutely. Um, I'd probably— I might think of it a little bit differently. Differently. But yeah, absolutely, that, um, that idea of the inside foot sort of, yeah, being the decider, I like that. That's, yeah, where, where that is in space relative to the other foot is, is like really going to determine when I can set up my body to, to get on top of that new outside ski.

Um, because something that you've been— what I really like about what you say is that the pronation is going to become a result of balancing on the proper spot under the foot and allowing it to happen. So if I take away my focus from the outside foot and I just try to kind of lead the switch a little bit more with my new inside foot, yep, everything's happened more naturally. I have a little bit more, uh, freedom.

Freedom, yeah.

Like kind of control a little bit. Like if I overthink outside foot, yep, I lock myself up.

Yeah.

And very often I'll push my center of mass to the inside of the turn at that point.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I guess if you thought about it another way, what you're saying is you— if, if your new outside foot is not kind of letting go, it hasn't foot, you know, then you're— then, sorry, if your old outside foot is not letting go, right, and you haven't given it directions, then your brain is not thinking, right, we're switching balance to the new foot.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So what I really like about what you've just said earlier is like the foot in the last part of the turn you kind of allow it to flatten and roll over. Yeah, exactly. Which I've been kind of struggling a little bit with that. I've been keeping it too rigid too late in the turn, and it, it was getting difficult to connect the turns. So I really like that, and it, it's in line with that idea of like your next inside foot being the decider into the turn.

Yep.

And the outside foot just Enjoying the ride and like using the full range of pronation. Like, like, I, I think this is something we've discussed about, uh, like last time, and I really enjoy the feeling of that.

So you know how you asked me at the beginning some of the things I've been working on? Yeah, I think it can be really helpful. So if you, if you're focusing on that outside foot being released or rolling flat right, from that turn. If you make that movement even on the chair here, so you have your foot tipped over and then you just make a move to roll it flat with your leg out to the side, what do you feel your shin do? Which way does your shin rotate? So just try it. So right now, if your foot is relaxed and So your foot's rolling through on the inside to being flat, so you've got more pressure towards the outside of the foot. Which way does your shin rotate?

Inward.

Inward or outward? Outward. Outward.

Yeah, outwards.

Outward. So as you go from being more pressure on the big toe side and, and your foot is like this, my left foot is like this, and then I go like that, my shin rotates to to the outside. Yeah, yeah, yep. So then if you follow that up, where does your— the leg bone above that go? It's connected, so it's also going to rotate outward for sure.

Yeah, like it's kind of leading the release.

Yeah, yep. And you follow that up to the hip, what does that do? Your hip also wants to start kind of following that movement. Yep, so you— so You follow that up and then your spine also eventually, everything will start to unwind and follow that foot over into the new turn. So perhaps next time go out and just like in a super slow long turn, just focus on the foot and then the next one foot and shin, foot, shin and thigh, foot, shin, thigh, pelvis. Just so everything is communicated and is all moving in together. Because that foot rolling— there's a bone in your foot, the talus bone, right? It is, let's see, so this one right here. And when your foot pronates, the talus rolls in. And basically, can you see that okay? Yep, yep. Um, your whole body follows the taluses of your feet. So as that moves in, your pelvis wants to follow and move and, and follow that rotation. And your other foot— my other foot, when I do that, the same thing would happen. So both taluses move together. Same going this way, the whole body follows it. So if your foot— if the talus is rotating out this way, the shin follows, the leg follows, and your center of mass is going to want to follow and move over with that foot. Yeah, yeah.

Like, honestly, you know, every organization in the world, like, they talk about, like, the turn being led with the lower body, but those principles, they clarify this so much more.

Yep, totally, totally. I really enjoy that.

I, I'd like, uh, like you talked at the beginning about your skiing being a little bit more rigid in the past, and like you're working a lot on like making a little bit more natural moves, the muscles being a little bit more relaxed. Um, and I hear that you've been achieving that goal with using your foot properly. And, uh, like, the foot moving properly will allow a little bit more suppleness in the, in the joints that are over that foot. Um, what else do you think is key in order to develop looser muscles and looser articulations? What have you used in order to develop that flow in your skiing?

Cool. Yeah, good question, good question. It comes back to that same concept of just, I guess, one of the— in terms of body stuff, my favorite, my main mentor, and I think he's a really intelligent guy, is Gary Ward. And he's got this system called Anatomy in Motion. One of the principles is your joints act and your muscles react. So I'm just trying to get in tune with— to be loose. I'm trying to lead with joint movements and bone movements so that my muscles learn to react to that. So if my spine is falling this way, it's not because I'm contracting the muscles on this side to help pull me this way. I'm letting go, and it's actually the muscles on the opposite side that are controlling the rate of how fast I fall, right? And so they're learning to, to manage my body in all these different directions. So I've just been working on training in the gym. And at home, eccentric loading basically. Yep, so letting the muscles react to whatever body position I'm in. So trying to create positions, not only in skiing, but everything where if I'm, if my body is hanging off this arm, what muscles are decelerating or stopping me from getting completely pulled apart? So it's, it's like we've talked about in the past, this idea of suspension, just trying to get my whole body to, to feel this idea of suspension. So the bones being pushed into different places, like leaning, the bones leaning into the muscles, so the muscles have to kind of stretch and then they're going to contract back. So if I want to go behind me, I've got to let my muscles fall sort of, or my bones fall forward, so the muscles that push me back have more to react against. So the whole body—

yeah, very, very interesting. On my side, I've been, uh, like, I've been working a lot on the inside half of my body in order to get the outside half achieve what I want to do. Is that something you've played with a lot? That's what I hear and what you're talking about right now.

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. But I guess, yes, it would be different parts of the inside half of my body. Because I guess another thing to talk about that is, I've been playing with, so, how your body balances the inside half of your torso if you're leaning over in a ski turn this way. How it manages that is completely different if I'm mostly balanced on my inside foot as opposed to balanced on my outside foot. So it's all relative to what your base of support is. So if your base of support is 70% outside, 30% inside, and you're feeling some loading here, it's going to feel completely different if you start going 80%, 90% outside foot 10% inside, this is going to have to work a lot harder. Yep, and there's going to be muscles on the— sort of hard to see my body, but they're like the inner leg on my right, like the adductors on my outside leg. I think we've talked about— they've got to, they've got to understand that their role is to decelerate my pelvis moving inside. The hip abductors on the inside leg around my hip, they've got to understand that they need to— they have a role. They can't contract, they've got to relax to allow my pelvis to move inside because they're the things that are going to save me when I decide I'm finished with that turn and I'm going to pronate a new foot. They're going to help contract my pelvis and my center of mass back to being balanced over the top of my feet again. So it's all relative to your base of support. So I've been training putting my body in various positions, but with my feet, with my balance differently on my left or my right or split somewhere in between and getting to feel what that's like. Does that make sense?

Yeah, for sure. Like, I really enjoyed that. And, you know, with the background you have you are kind of a lot more aware of what the body parts are doing. When you're coaching people, like, for sure, it's all that is very internal. Like, how can you give them some cues in order to achieve a little bit, like, like all those, those internal things? What do you use? Yeah, you use in order to make it a little bit more kind of accessible. Yeah, and so they have like—

less complicated.

Well, like, I, I can understand super well. I'm always— every time we talk, I'm saying, okay, that's interesting, so now how am I gonna feel that? So yeah, you probably have that question a lot.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, so, uh, I guess one thing that's been fun, rather than straight away doing it in skiing I've had a lot of success with just stepping off the skis and trying to feel that movement just on your feet, so that if you let your body move inside with more balance on your outside foot, where do you feel a deceleration? You don't have to tell them parts, just like, yeah, touch the area, right there, right? So they got a kinesthetic feeling, or if they're trying to move their inside half-in, just focusing on different areas, okay, like move like your, the inside, the outside of your thigh close to this point on the snow. Now move your rib cage close to the snow. So just giving, like I was saying with the proprioception, your body just understands more if you give it a relationship of where the structure is in relation to the environment. So, an external cue. So, put your hips, just got to get that much close to the snow. Your head's got to be not as close. Your head's got to be closer to your outside binding. Yes, I guess those are just lots of external cues and questioning. You got to question the person, like you can't assume. If you say, 'When you do this, you'll feel it here.' You've got to then ask the person, 'Okay, when you do that, do you feel it here?' And if they, if they feel it somewhere else, then there's straightaway your kind of insight into what they're doing. And so you can kind of move on from there and get them to play around with what have you got to do to make yourself, you know, feel loading in these areas. Because most of the people that come in, like to give an example, with pain into my clinic, If they are making a simple movement of shifting their hips left and right, a lot of the time they'll shift one way and they'll say, "I feel it here, it's really tight here," and it's in the completely wrong spot that should be decelerating that movement. It's a spot that should be maybe contracting that movement but not decelerating it. So their body has gotten around it and forgotten some of the, the, the muscles or the joint movements that get those proper muscles decelerating. So yeah, super interesting. I, I really, uh, yeah, I think, I mean, inspiring. It's hard for us, uh, as instructors, but you know, like, uh, people need to be more body aware. Like, we talk about, um, intelligence of the brain and all that sort of stuff, but but, you know, kinesthetic intelligence, intelligence of how your body moves and listening to it. So many people don't listen to their body. They go to the gym and they smash out massive reps and sets because they want to lose weight, and then, you know, 2 weeks later they end up with a sore back or their knee's sore or whatever because they weren't listening to their body. They were just going through the motions, not feeling what's happening, not being in tune. And so, of course, you go out skiing and someone asks you to do something, "I've got no idea how to do that." Well, you can't even feel the right things when you step from left foot to right foot. When you go to sit down in a chair, you just like flunk down. So, if people can be, if they really want to get better at their skiing, they need to start taking up some practice outside of that to get in tune with their body so they listen to it for feedback. You know, you got those crazy incredible people like The Dutch guy Wim Hof, who's so in tune with his vascular system, his blood, he can be in freezing cold environments for way longer than humans should be able to, and he can keep his core temperature warm because he can control the blood flow, how fast it's going, where it's going in his body, just through being totally in tune with with his body. You know, we can do incredible things if we, if we actually get in touch with it.

So love it. Like, honestly, again, there's a lot of interesting stuff in there. What do you— have you been working on your stance? Um, like, what elements are important for you in order to— because I've been playing with my stance lately in order to allow some freedom of movement Like, what do you look for in your stance in order to allow that flow to, uh, to be, to be there when you're skiing?

Um, so give me an example of what you've been working on that's made it, made you more mobile.

Like, for example, in my stance, I really try to work on the angle of my pelvis like I realized that I'm kind of locking myself up in a bit of an anterior tilt in the pelvis, and I wanted to bring it back a little bit more neutral, so I just unlocked my legs, I unlocked my lower joints.

Yep.

So this is something I've been playing with a lot. So yeah, does that— yeah, that's something you're using.

Yeah. So I went through a stage of really trying to be, have this idea of a neutral spine. And I think it's a good concept, it's a good idea, but it is completely rare, it's just not possible to maintain a neutral position all the time with all these supple movements going on. So what I've been trying to do in my stance is is not force my pelvis to stay in one position, but have some articulation either side. So where I want that central position to be in, I just allow it to be, to rock either side of that as I'm skiing. So, gets a little bit too complex to say when things are happening, but it definitely comes from the foot. Like when you pronate, for example, the chain reaction up your body, through your ankle, through your knee, to your hip, causes more of an anterior tilt. So if I'm feeling that my pelvis is rolling backwards and I'm kind of slumping at the point that I'm trying to pronate, that's, that's not right. That doesn't connect with this kind of dominoes of, of one joint going like this, next joint going like that, next joint going like that, right? Same thing when, when I supinate, um, and the fall line, I actually want to allow my pelvis to have a little bit of posterior tilt because that allows the adductors to work better to decelerate. It allows, um, my hip to be in a better position against my pelvis. So I'm trying not to now hold it in the one position. I'm trying for it to be just like my foot, adaptable and a little bit mobile. And then that means the rest of my body can sort of adjust to it. And again, like, your muscles react to your bones' positions and where they're falling, where they're moving to. So if your pelvis stays, you know, locked and your spine is locked above that, your muscles just stay completely locked around. They're not getting challenged and know how to deal with when you do hit ice. And your foot goes away and your spine needs to have a bit of flex in it this way and your abdominal obliques need to lengthen and control that movement. If you're always training in here and you're never allowing these sort of subtle little movements to happen, your body won't know what to do when that happens. So I guess I've been training a little bit outside of neutral because neutral is not possible. It's a good place to be aware of like where it is. It's using analogy, it's a town you visit and you want to know where that spot is, but you want to know all the towns around it and know how to be there and the road back home to neutral and center again.

Super, super interesting. Yeah. Like just to finish, you have like you want to talk about some other stuff that you've been playing with in your skiing lately?

Yeah, I guess, I mean, I love skiing moguls, and I think that's something, an area people, a lot of people struggle with because you're not just dealing with a flat surface with bumps, and so there needs to be way kind of bigger ranges of motion up and down. And so I've been playing with cogs, I guess, or just this idea of if the pelvis is tilting this way, the ribcage is going to be tilting the other way, and the head's going to be opposing that, because they all balance each other. So I've been playing with, in moguls, the timing of when my pelvis is anteriorly tilting, and at the same time my ribcage sort of going the other way, so I maintain an upright position as the mogul hits, so I'm in a good position, my muscles can deal with this load being pushed through the system. And then my head at that same time. So just the 3 parts of pelvis, ribcage, and head, just how they're timed together in the moguls has been really fun. To play with. I'm going to do a little video, hopefully at some point, to try and explain how people can play with that. But I guess the one thing you could try and do is if you just take one mogul and you ski across the hill diagonally into it in a tall position, and as the mogul pushes into your legs and it flexes your ankle, flexes your knee, and your pelvis starts to bend, your hips bend. At that same time as the pelvis is bending, see if you can lift your rib cage up to the sky, but at the same time, drop your chin down to your rib cage. And what will happen is your whole spine ends up stacking itself up in one straight line, and all the muscles lengthen. And guess what, the next thing they want to do once, if you maintain that position, is unload. And guess what, your legs are going to shoot down the backside of the motor. So you're not going to have to try and push them down or whatever. Everything is loaded, so when you get over the crest of the bump and you're going down the other side, you just relax and everything, whoosh, lengthens and unwinds again. Come into the next one. If you maintain this, this rib cage up, pelvis tilting forward, the hamstrings even load. So you get this loading effect in your hamstrings. You go over the backside of the bump, the hamstrings contract and fire, your legs go down and back behind you, and your center of mass shoots forward over your feet again.

Love it. Like, there's so much— like, what I hear, there's so much happening as a result of Loading the muscles properly and allowing it like just to come back in the initial position, or even like sometimes the reaction is the catapult reaction. Yeah, which is something that we talk about a lot, and I really enjoy those discussions. Like, and we can all relate to like sometimes we have a nice turn, you release, and you really feel that like the unwinding is, yeah, like making the, the start of the next turn for us.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's that part that I think is the unwinding part is the most enjoyable part, but you've got to learn how to wind up first to get that. You can't wind up by— you can't wind up by gripping and pulling in. You got to let things kind of spread apart and joints go further apart so muscles lengthen. In order to get that slingshot.

Tom, like, again, it's been so nice. I— that was an inspiring discussion, and thank you so much for doing all those podcasts. And I'm glad that we finally have that discussion, and it's always super fun to hear what you have to say and very, very inspiring. So thank you so much for talking about— yeah, skiing, even if we're all in snow and you're in Australia in your shorts and t-shirt. It flops. So hopefully we get to ski together soon and thanks a lot for this great discussion.

Yeah, thanks very much, JF, and yeah, look forward hopefully to maybe catching up with you in May, hopefully so I can show you this stuff in real time and we can play with it. Yeah, I look forward to it.

So thanks a lot, Tom.

Pleasure. Thanks, see you.

This episode is brought to you by Carv, the digital ski coach. Now, one of the features I've had the most fun with all time is simply the fact that Carv tracks every single turn you make. I treat it a bit like Strava, so at the end of the day it tells me exactly how many turns I've done, and those numbers keep adding up across the season. So last season in Australia, I had a few days where I was doing nearly 2,500 turns, and my legs were tired, but it was really cool to try and have that number there motivating me, and I'm quietly working my way towards my 1 millionth turn with Carv. So the other metrics I've been diving into lately, and these are new for this season, are very unique, and these are turn corridor and turn radius. And I don't see many skiers using them, but they tell you a lot about the shape and flow of your skiing. So the turn corridor shows you how far you're traveling across the hill, or the time almost between apex to apex, and how long you're taking to transition. While the turn radius measures the actual arc you create once you start the turn. So these can be different, you can have like a very wide corridor, say 18 meters, but a lower turn radius, or the other way around. So when you compare the two, it opens up a whole world of experimentation, and it would be a bit like a race coach will set different types of race courses to influence a racer or skier to change the timing and mix it up. So I encourage you to look into this if you've got Carv and play with it and see if you can manipulate it, because it's only going to improve your versatility. So I keep my Carv on my boots every single day because you never know quite know when like a change in technique or a new ski resort or skis will show up in the numbers, and it's great at the end of the day being able to check that, or even after the fact. And I'm really looking forward to the day I open the app and I see turn number 1 million So if you want to explore your skiing in a completely different way, check out Carv, the digital ski coach. And thank you, team, for sponsoring this episode.