Tomas Marnics Interview

This episode is sponsored by Carv, the digital ski coach, and one of the updates I've really enjoyed this season is the addition of separate SkiIQs for moguls and short turns. In the past, Carv scoring was mainly built around carving metrics, which meant everything was viewed through that lens, but Carv have gone deep on that research and completely separated what makes a great short turn or mogul turn different from a carved turn. To give you an idea of how accurate it's become, the person at the top of the Carv leaderboard right now isn't a carving specialist, it's Olympic mogul skier Matt Graham. So the best SkiIQ in the world at the moment is coming from someone who lives and breathes bumps, and to be honest, my own highest SkiIQ is also in the moguls, which makes sense because that's my favorite type of skiing. What's really exciting this year is the addition of turn tempo, so basically your turns per minute. It's such a simple external output that's incredibly fun to play with. So good skiing isn't just about edge similarity or parallel skis, it's about how you interact with the terrain and whether you can change your tempo on demand. So seeing numbers like my quickest tempo of 117 turns per minute in the bumps gives you something concrete to compare, refine, and work toward. I've been working with Carv since 2020, and every year I'm genuinely impressed with how much the product evolves. They keep expanding what you can measure, and they're covering more and more of the turn types that skiers actually use all over the mountain. So if you're interested in tracking not just your carving but every turn you make on the snow, check out Carv. And a big thanks to the team for supporting this episode.

Hey everyone, welcome to the most recent episode of the Global Skiing Podcast. I'm sorry it's been a while since I've done an episode but there's been a lot on my plate. A couple of projects, one of which is bigpictureskiing.com, has been on my plate. Business has been going really well, and of course recently the coronavirus thing. So anyway, I hope you enjoy this most recent episode where I interview Thomas Marnix. Now I found him on Instagram and his skiing really caught my eye as he really skis with the forces. and it looks very natural, big angles, but really powerful and strong, as he's a firm believer in inclination and really getting the body to line up naturally. And so we talk about some interesting things from horses, animals, kayaking, rollerblading, to skiing, and we tie all these all together in, in a really interesting episode where you hear Thomas's background, um, how he went to the US to learn from the USSA coaching system, his sort of battles with, um, hearing what certain associations talk about, like with counter rotation, and not really hearing good reasons as to why, and not feeling that it's very powerful. And then going on his own discovery of, um, you know, being more aligned and using different movements, which you'll find out more similar to what he feels in kayaking, because I must say this guy has been in a couple of kayak films and is a pretty crazy kayaker, like extremely good. Anyway, he's a lovely guy. I had a great time talking with him. I think we see sea skiing through a very similar lens. It was really interesting talking to him, so I hope you enjoy this episode. And on a final note, My most recent project, bigpictureskiing.com, is up and running on the web, and it's currently got 17 different videos on there ranging from different topics, online lessons for bumps, carving, short turns, fore-aft balance, webinars, lots of things in there, and I'm adding things every week. So if it's something you're interested in at the moment, sort of being in this lockdown environment, learning more about your skiing and having a greater understanding, I'm putting everything I know and have learned over the years about skiing into this website. So please check it out and you can use the code, all capitals, GLOBALSKIING at checkout to receive 25% off any subscription plan. Anyway, finished with that. I hope you enjoy this episode with Thomas Marnik.

So the great thing is like we don't know each other from a bar of soap, really. So tell me like what got you into skiing? What's your background? Why are you now coaching? Athletes and really sort of, yeah, out there with trying to get your message of good skiing across?

Yeah, well, I started to ski when I was a little kid because I didn't have a chance not to start skiing. So my parents, they are like big fans of skiing. My father trained, but he never was a professional racer. But he just liked to spend a lot of time on the mountain. And so, like, my father was going to train and, like, he would pick all the kids with him and we were spending, like, I didn't, at the beginning, I didn't really like it because it was cold and the equipment was uncomfortable, let's say. And so I'm 37 right now and I started to ski at about, I don't know, 2, 3. So a long time ago. And then I, well, I never raced myself because like probably I would like to, but when I grew up, my life, let's say, It was difficult time because Soviet Union broke down and it was like very difficult for my family to travel and like do sports. So there was a big break for about 8-10 years. I didn't really ski and then I went back into skiing and I thought that, okay, like, let's go to do some ski instructor courses, but at that time I didn't really, I didn't really plan to work as a ski instructor. It was just because I wanted to check how much I know about skiing and like how good or bad I am. So just, it was more about understanding where I am, like what is my level of skiing and understanding skiing. That was the reason why I started to go to ski instructor courses and then somehow I got hooked up and I liked it a lot and I just kept going, started to work as a ski instructor, went through the whole system. Which system was this? So I was doing all my courses, well, pretty much all my courses with Russian Association of Ski Instructors, which is part of ESEA. Yeah. And then I started to work in Switzerland. I got invited to work in Switzerland, started to work here, and so I went through the system and I really liked, so during all these courses I really like the aspect that you learn and like you meet different people and you get different information, different opinions. So I was trying to pick up like everything what I could get from different people and then I started to, like the Russian Association though they offered me to become a trainer. So I was working for Russian Association for about 6 years as a coach to run the courses, but then, but then I realized that I, I like, I kind of got to the point where I wanted to propose my ideas and Yes. And I had, at that time, I started to have like a lot of experience because I had a chance to ski with like Italian coaches, with the Swiss people, good level skiers, and it was, my experience was like getting bigger and bigger and I wanted to share with with Russian Association, but at that time they didn't really want to have kind of a different opinion or whatever.

Okay.

So we split and I had a feeling that I still want to go and learn some new things. So I went to, I went to US for, for this courses with the USSA.

Yes, so this coaching.

Yeah, yeah, right. But same as when I started to go to ski instructor courses, I didn't really plan to work as a coach, right?

Yeah, okay, you just want information and—

Right, right, right. So I went there just to see what is the opinion about skiing just like on the other side of the ocean, right? And so I went there 2 times and I'm actually planning to go, I was planning to go this May again but well, all this situation with the borders is difficult now. So I'll probably go there next year, we'll see. And then at some point I was, well, and when I split with Russian Association, when I left them, I decided to open my own ski club and— What year was this? It was 2014, I guess.

Okay. Yeah.

And— or '15, but it's, yeah, about that time. Yeah. And then I— but it was— like the, the ski club I opened, it was more for also ski instructors who want to become better and have kind of preparation courses.

Yeah.

And yeah, I started to do this and actually I'm doing it at the moment as well. So this is my main income. And so the thing got so big that next winter I'm actually planning the whole winter starting from October until let's say beginning middle of May I'm planning to go just to run the clinics in different places because talking about ski racing at some point I was just invited to help Well, not to help, but just got invited to run the technical preparation camp for women's team. It sounds like big, but actually the team in Ukraine is very small, so there are like just 3, 4 people. And so we did this—

I didn't even ask, so you are Ukrainian?

That is your heritage? No, no, no, no, no. I'm from Latvia. Latvia, but I, when I started to go to ski instructor courses, I actually moved from Latvia to Europe, like to Alps, and so I'm in the Alps for last 12 years.

Okay, so that's in Europe.

Yeah, but why, like, my first language is Russian, so all these countries like Ukraine and like like ex-Soviet Union countries. That's the, my, let's say client base of my client because we all speak the same language and it's very easy. And yeah, that was probably also one of the reasons why I got invited to do this camp with Ukrainian girls. And then I worked with them since that time. So they really liked it and since that time I was helping them and my, 2 years ago my season I was spending with them as a technical coach and then again we decided, and then again we decided to split. There was one girl who was the leader of the team.

Yeah.

She wanted, she wanted to train with me the full time So the last season I spent just coaching her, but unfortunately the situation in Ukraine is like very, very bad in terms of corruption and stuff. Well, I don't know if, I don't know if I want you to mention this thing in later on, but it's, it's difficult. So it was like very difficult to get money. Well, we actually didn't get any money from Federation. Yeah. And then she, after the season, she decided to quit, to retire, let's say. Yeah. Because everything what we did was supported by my ski club, well, actually by myself.

Yeah.

And she was feeling kind of bad that I'm paying for her and trying to like bring her up.

But, um, how was she? How is she, uh, how are her results going?

Well, I was, um, we were working a lot on technique and doing drills as, um, because like I, I believe that as a ski instructor, I believe that, um, you cannot reach the high level without, like, basic understanding, the basic things. So we were working, and she was a good skier. She was an Olympian, and she went to Olympic Games in South Korea. Yeah. And I was happy with her results and how she changed during the trainings. But another thing was the psychological. She just, she just for some reason she couldn't show the same skiing on the competitions.

Okay, right, right.

And she was, and she was going through the same thing for years and also that this was like a big part of her decision to stop because like, yeah, she could see the big improvement. We were shooting a lot of videos, analyzing videos, but she just couldn't, couldn't do the same on the race day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay.

Hey, so, so Thomas, yeah, so tell me, since you started out, say, doing like being in an instructor course, so being you know, taught how to be an instructor, from the get-go, did you start hearing things that did not make sense with what you were seeing? Do you understand my question?

Yes. Yeah, it was 100%. 100%.

Tell me about those things.

Well, first of all, I It was about counter rotation. So I don't believe in counter rotation and like people were just telling me that I have to do this but I, I like, and they, they didn't, they couldn't really explain and bring me the, and bring me the fact like why should I do, why should I be in such position because they were just saying that this is the right position and this is how the people ski and they were even showing the images from like top athletes, World Cup skiers but I was, I was feeling that this is, well, there is some misunderstanding between the image they show and how how to get to this point of the turn. Yes. And how, how World Cup skiers, um, like get to this point, in which position they are. Because what we, what we see on the picture is the, let's say, first of all, pictures are not moving, right? So we don't know what, we don't know what, what was what was a second before this image and what was right after this image. That's one thing. Another thing why I didn't believe in encounter is that I tried in my skiing, especially when I started to, like, doubt the other people opinions, I started to make a lot of experiments with the position in different part of the turns, and I could just feel that if I always stay in a counter position, I just don't have power. I, like, I just cannot work with my ski. There is a part of the turn where it is necessary, but I'm talking about the exit of the turn, the last part of the turn. Yeah, but at But at that time, it's different for a different reason, right? It's for a different reason. And at that point, you don't need to have a powerful position anymore, so you are releasing.

Yeah. So tell me, when you were sort of first hearing Thomas, you need to counter, you need to counter, were they, were they saying like to help you angulate, to help you balance on the outside ski? Were these the the short reasons they were giving you?

Yeah, mostly yes, because it was easier to angulate. It was— but also about angulation, I'm— I guess you will ask me a lot of questions about inclination.

Inclination, yeah.

Right, right. So talking about angulation, I didn't really feel that— like, I could feel that more I bent, more I angulate, less power I have and less power I could bring to my ski. Yeah. And I was trying to like stay in a different position and just compare the feelings and compare the way the ski behaves. And it was, yeah, I was surprised that like trying different thing gives me more control, more result, more precision during the turn. And so I could just have a different skiing on steeper slopes or more difficult terrain.

Yes. So what do you know, was it just because you before the instructor courses did a lot of skiing without people telling you what you should and shouldn't do And it makes me wonder, because I know you're like quite a high-level kayak— like, yes, water kayaker. So yeah, I'm just guessing you are sort of a bit of a natural athlete, so you know what feels right when you're doing a sport.

Yeah, yeah.

So you're always measuring it by that.

Yeah, yeah. I was, I was actually— when I started to think about my skiing, my old skiing, and like I wanted to improve. I wanted to ski steeper slopes, I wanted to ski cleaner lines, I wanted to ski with more control. I started to like analyze what I do and I started to compare my positions in different parts of the turn to other skiers, right, to other sports as well. Just to understand why in other sports people are having very similar positions. But if you take skiing, there are so many, so many different options and so many different opinions about how you have to be, in which kind of position you have to be at the beginning of the turn or middle of the turn. And so on. And then I just started to analyze the animals, how the animals move.

And yeah, any specific animals?

Well, I don't know, running tigers, running goats, horses. And I was, yeah, it was, it's kind of It's kind of funny, but— No, it's not.

It's not funny.

I'm 100% sure that you won't see, for example, if we take the horse, right? You won't see horse running on the circle in a counter position. Yeah. And all the horses you will take, they will run in exactly the same way. They will have exactly the same position, right? Yeah, they have no idea what is— what is—

what is good, good horse right running and what is not good horse running.

Yeah, what is a good grip, what is a bad grip, like, yeah, angulation and so on. So I guess they— well, for sure they feel the physics.

Yeah.

And they, they are trying to get the most effective position, right?

Yeah.

To get the result, the best result. And yeah, you won't see, if you take 100 horses, you will probably see just one way of running or like very similar circle. Yeah. And this got me to think a lot like why skating is so different and like why animals are moving the same way but people cannot use the same idea.

So what do you think? Why is that? Why are all these associations coming up with you need more counter, you need to do this, you need to use this part to turn here?

Well, I think that you should, like, the main reason why I have so many different opinions, of course, is business. And it's very difficult to agree that your opinion is wrong. well, I don't like the word wrong, but there is like— it's for people, for most of the people, is difficult to take other person's opinion.

Yes.

So they just keep pushing their own line.

Yes, yes.

And it's—

yeah, because I guess Like you, like you were saying, they were showing you videos of top athletes and they were saying, hey, look at the counter. Yeah, and sure, you could probably see there, you know, from a particular way of looking at it, yes, okay, I guess you could call that counter. But the skier, you were saying it, that wasn't a deliberate movement, right?

It was, it was something different. I could see part, I could probably see part of what I was told, but I, I didn't really see it for 100%.

Yes.

That's one thing. And as I, as I mentioned before, it was my main question was like, did you see how this athlete got to this point? Because most of the time we see the pictures or, like, videos or slow-motion videos from the athletes passing the gate, right?

Yes.

But, like, they all trying to make shorter line and there is a reason why they counter. Because they want to protect themselves from the gate for like most of the time. But again, you can find, you can like in these days, you can find a lot of good examples, a lot of good videos from steeper slopes where athletes don't even touch the gate because they need to have this powerful position. They want to stay aligned with the skis and they just, they don't go even close to the gate just to keep this powerful position. They take a deeper line but, yeah, but like most of the time we see the pictures where athlete is counter-rotated.

Yeah, because it's a good action shot.

It's a good action shot, right, and but My main question always was like, yeah, I could see this, this part of the turn, but what, what did the athlete did before, before getting here? Like, yeah, what was his movement? What was his position at the beginning of the turn? Like, why, why we're not analyzing that part of the turn?

Yeah. So did you get more answers in regards to what is the athlete doing before that? At the top part of the turn when you went to the USA?

Um, some of the answers, yeah, yes and no. Because like my— let's say, um, the main— well, I remember the day when I started to doubt that I'm doing the right movements during my skiing, and that was the training with Stefano Beligneri.

Yes. Do you know him? I do know him, yes.

So we worked on the same ski resort and we used to ski together a lot, but I remember the day when he gave me his skis. We had exactly the same ski, exactly the same radius, and I just followed him and I realized that like I couldn't really follow his tracks. And something is wrong with me because I'm bigger, I'm a little bit, well, like he's a small guy, so I'm a little bit taller, slightly heavier, so I thought that I could work with the ski much more and bend the ski more, but actually I was like totally wrong because I just couldn't follow his tracks. And then I started, and then I started to compare his videos with my skiing, with my videos, and I just realized, I just realized that in some parts of the turn, like actually the first part, and well, let's say until the fall line, from the transition until the fall line, I was in a slightly different position especially with my hips, especially.

And what was the position? Were you a bit too countered?

Right, I was, I was, I was too countered and I had too much angulation.

Yeah.

So I couldn't, I couldn't really, like, my ski was on the edge but I couldn't really work with it. And I started, and that was the point from where I started to think about my skiing, and I started to, like, analyze different videos, and I started to Shoot a lot of videos of myself, just even, even if I couldn't shoot the video, I was, I was just trying to ski in a different position and, and, and get these different feelings and understand.

So almost like, not counter-rotated, but you're probably trying to rotate into your tail?

Yes, well, I was, I was trying different things. I was trying like—

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Completely different things just to understand what happened, what, what, what, what's gonna happen next if I'm in this kind of position, or what's gonna happen next and if I do this kind of move. And there was a lot of, a lot of falling.

Yeah, that's good to hear.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Probably a lot of good feelings too though, yes?

Oh yeah, of course. I was so happy when I could feel that I just did it right because it was, I could feel like a lot of power, a lot of acceleration coming out of the turn and it was like completely different feeling and I could feel that I can go on the steeper slopes and try the same things there and yeah, it was a lot of fun actually to try and see what is the outcome.

And then I'm just looking— quick question, like, so I've got your Instagram here. Yeah, I'm looking at, say, like, 26th of March 2018, uh, Bukaville, and you're sort of like, you've got no poles, blue jacket, outside hand on your hip, inside hand is touching the snow. Is this, is this after you've already been playing, or are you still playing with stuff at this Well, no, that was already when I went to Bukovel.

So I got invited, they have a big ski school there, around 300 people, and I got invited there to run the course for the ski instructors because they were also not happy with the system they went through and they knew that I went to US but actually When I went to US, it was more about, of course, I got new information there, but it was more just to understand and hear my thoughts from big name coaches. So, yes. What I mean?

It's almost like confirmation, I'm not crazy.

Yes, right. Correct. Because Because when I started to doubt that angulation is not always the right, like if you angulate too much, this probably takes the power off your ski. I thought that, well, if there are so many people thinking that this is right and I'm the only one thinking that this is wrong, maybe I'm crazy. But I just kept trying different things and when I went to US, I would say like 90% of my thoughts, they were like, "Man, you are doing the right thing and you just keep doing it and keep experimenting." Of course there were some explanations and some opinions from the coaches there, which I thought that you could do it in a different way and could get a better result.

Could you give an example?

Because that's interesting. Yeah, they, what I remember, they were, they were telling a lot about the pressure on the, on the, how do you call it, the of your ski boot, the like front part.

Oh, like the cuff, the front cuff?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was one part, but I also think that you use it at the certain part of the turn, like you do this movement on a certain part of the turn but not always. Yes. When I went there for for the second time I had the chance to ski with a US ski team athlete. It was, his name was Casey Puckett. He was in the national team for 20 years.

Yep.

And he was doing the same course with me.

Yep.

And I asked him this question just on the chairlift, like, what do you think about Yeah, the pressure on the front of the boot.

Yeah.

And he said if you do it, you do it in the first part of the turn, but not the whole thing, not the whole turn.

Yeah.

And why? Well, because we want to use the ski from the tip to the tail, and at the beginning of the turn you want to you want your tip to grip the snow, but then if you keep doing— if you keep pushing on the front part of the ski boot, uh, yeah, the back pushes through the—

through the—

yeah, through the whole turn, then, then the— you just lose your tail.

Yeah, yeah.

And that was like— his words were exactly what I thought, uh, yeah, about using the ski boot.

Yeah. And, um, Yet I bet like the problem is, like, some coaches can say pressure the front of your boot, but they don't say for this part and only until here, because if you keep doing it here, then a negative thing happens. Like, that's where I think— Correct. Things, I guess, go wrong. And it's like, yeah, there's no context of like when how much, why. Yeah, yeah, correct.

And I think it's, it's exactly the same with the counter rotation, with angulation and so on. That, um, of course we, we want to do this kind of movements, but we really have to understand where exactly we do it and where we have to do something different.

Yeah, yeah, cool. So from that, that coaching course, that would— was that the main one? Because you said like 90% was kind of confirmed as what you thought. Would, would the main 10% then be that boot thing, or was there anything else?

Um, yeah, it was, it was also about, um, the footwork. Well, yeah, from From your interviews with other people, I could hear ankle movement, but I, like, we probably talk about the same thing, but I call it footwork. And as far as I understand, in US, coaches are not allowed to give exercises to people with unbuckled ski boots.

Oh, really?

Well, that's what they told me. Okay. That when they work with kids, it's not really allowed because if the kid gets injured because of this, then—

Okay.

Yeah, then it's kind of a bad story. And so when they were asking me about like, what would be your main focus in your skiing? And I mentioned that because I spent a lot of time skiing with unbuckled ski boots. Yeah. And for them it was kind of like, well, I don't want to say new thing, but as they are not allowed to do this, it was, I could feel that I can explore and explain more things than I hear from them. Maybe they know it, But hey, on these two courses that we, we didn't really talk about this topic.

Okay, so that was one of the other missing bits. Hey, you know what it makes me think of? I bet in your kayaking, like, you could use an analogy. Your foot inside the ski boot is the same as your legs inside the kayak. You really have to work your legs like against the kayak to hold and maneuver it and manipulate it. Right, very actively.

Yeah, yes, of course, because yeah, same with the foot inside the boot, right? Right, more contact you have in your kayak, more control you have on the river, because if you are like a, let's say, pencil in the glass, then yeah, you don't have control. Same as with the ski boots. But like, why I'm skiing with unbuckled ski boots— like, I'm doing a lot of skiing with open ski boots because this helps me a lot to find the balance and actually to train myself at the beginning of the season to get to the right position. To— well, not right, but the most comfortable position, because nothing supports you and you have to really—

that's right.

You have to find the balance and you have to work actually more with your ankle and your foot just to control your ski.

Yeah.

And then when I close the ski boot afterwards, then it's just completely different skiing.

Yeah, yeah, 100% agree with that. 100%. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting that I was just thinking, just that the kayak kind of crossover. Um, like, yeah, the same thing. Because I remember just watching a— I was just watching a YouTube video on, like, you know, some guy just turning in a kayak, and he's talking about jamming your knee, like, right up into the inside of the boat, you know. Because so then when you actually put the oar or the paddle in the water, like, close to 100% of the effort actually translates into the, into the raft. The kayak, not lost in floppy movement. Yeah, great.

And like most in kayaking, most of the movements are done with your legs and your pelvis.

Yeah.

Arms are just like you hold the paddle and you kind of control what's going on, but Most of your movements, like control of your boat, is done not by your upper body. It's actually— yeah, from your foot to your pelvis.

Yeah, cool. So do you now feel like quite— do you feel any similar parallels even though you never really— you don't get that much centripetal force in kayaking? Do you still feel like Is it, yeah, do you feel any similarities between those?

Oh yes, yeah, yeah, like, well, as I said just before, like, everything happens in your pelvis and legs.

And legs, yeah.

So this chain is actually so much related, and when I think about my skiing, it's like 100% the same thing. If I'm in a good control between my foot and my pelvis, then I just have so much control and so I could do many different things on the skis. Yeah. If I'm losing the control between these two points, I mean, there are more in between, right? But like this would be for me, for my skiing, this would be kind of a main thing. The chain between my foot and my pelvis. If I lose control there or power there, then I start to feel less power on my skis. I start to feel less grip on my skis and so on.

Yeah, yeah, I just— yeah, I've been experimenting with as many different things. Like, I bought a skateboard. I used to skateboard when I was younger.

Yeah.

20 years ago. Anyway, I bought a skateboard again, and it's all the same things. It's like, you know, I'm playing with like using inclination to force me to use my legs quicker for a short, like a really short carved skateboard turn. So instead of like pushing the board around, I'm kind of falling over and in, and I'm forcing my legs to really work fast to catch me. Whereas if I don't fall in, they don't need You know, I have to push my legs. Yeah, I'm trying to make my legs react, which is way faster. Yeah, so maybe that leads us into that. Oh yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, I was, I was, um, that was another point you just, you just, uh, started to talk about going away from the, from your board, and that was another thing, um, which was kind of doubtful for me when I started to hear that, like, if you want to have a shorter radius turn, um, you have to push on your ski boot harder, or you have to push your ski harder.

Yeah.

And, and then I, um, again, I started to doubt, like, what, what, like, is it true or not? Because I could see the— at the same, same ski instructor course, I could see the guy who is like 90 kilograms and the girl who is like 50 kilograms, half weight as the guy, but the girl can bend the ski much more than the guy. And I was like, how it is possible? And then I just, again, I started to experiment and It was just impossible to bend the ski if you are above the ski. So yeah, yeah, if I, if I want, if I want to move, if I want to bend the ski, I have to move away from the ski, and then I have at least, I have a space for the ski to bend. Otherwise, otherwise, if I'm just above the ski, there is no chance I can make it.

Yes. Yeah. So then, yeah, why don't we go into the inclination thing, because, because you were talking about Stefano Belengheri and you figured out that that was the main difference, and you realized that you were angulating and countering, which actually stops inclination. Yeah. So how did— so you got to there, what did you start doing? Or do you want to talk to us about inclination?

Well, um, yeah, again, I started to trying different things. I was trying to move away from the ski. I wanted to have this great pictures where you touch the ground with your hip and— but it was more about understanding the skiing, not about having those pictures. But yeah, I just realized that if I want to have the shorter radius turn and cleaner line, I have to do something with my ski, otherwise if I'm above the ski there is no chance. With such position, angulating and countering, there is no way I can, I can get the same radius as Stefano was doing and as, like, people on the World Cup can make. So I was trying to move away from the ski I was trying to actually go away from the ski with different parts of my body. But yeah, I was trying to go with my shoulders and see what's like, where is my weight. Yeah, what happens, where is my weight on the outside ski, or it's just moving to the inside ski. I was trying to move away from the ski with my hips, with my knees, and like just it was a lot of experiments, a lot of trying different things, a lot of falling, a lot of good feeling, and yeah, just step by step I was just collecting the good feelings and trying to build the picture.

So what year was this roughly, or what season, like when?

Yeah, it was I would say it was like 2014, '15, and '16. I already got the picture and I already knew what is—

this is how we do it.

Yeah, what is not very good on different type of snow.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, cool.

And another thing, it was actually good to try different options on different kind of snow because I thought, like, at the beginning I thought that, well, if you just move away everything will happen. But if you have a different slope or different type of snow, it's also, you have to adapt and that's actually another point where I started to understand that explanation on the courses has to be very variable because if you say that, well, if you say to people that you have to do this and this and conditions are changing, you have to change also the movements. And for me, like, experimenting and trying different things with my skiing was like kind of opening the world for myself because I could feel that like the movement I just did on the hard snow is not really working on this kind of snow or softer snow.

Yes.

Or yeah. So, and it's, and then I also got to the point where skating and all these movements became more like a prediction. So you get the experience from your past turns. Yes. And you kind of trying to predict what's gonna happen on this slope. Yeah, before it's happened. Yeah, yeah, before it happens. Yeah, because when I, when I started to experiment, it was actually the analysis was right after it happened. But yes, with the time, with the time it changed. So I could, I could really tell what is going to happen if I do this on my next turn there and what, what will be the outcome because I already had this 1000 falls before.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Hey, so along that way, did you like— have you ever been someone that's had to modify their ski boots much to get like the best alignment so it's easier for you to do all these things?

Um, yes, I always, I always do. Well, since, um last 6 years, 7 years, I always pay attention to my ski boots, like how they feel and like what is the setup. But to be honest, I don't do it myself. So I have a friend, he used to work for the World Cup team and he was the boot fitter there and serviceman. So he's—

which team, which country?

He was doing, he was working for Liechtenstein. Yeah. Yeah. And so he's, I'm 100% sure that he knows much more and he can make it better. I mean, I would, I would like to learn more about this, but I'll—

you're using your time for other things.

Yeah. And I'm probably a little bit—

Do you want to give him like a shout out? So in case, like, does he work in a boot shop that other people can go and see him?

Well, he stopped. He, he's doing different thing now, so.

Okay, right. So you're lucky you can always go and see him with a new pair of boots.

Well, as he's my friend, so I can always ask him for help, but, um, he's not, he's not doing it anymore.

So yeah, okay. Because it's hard to find a good boot fitter.

Yeah, that's true.

In my experience, I should say, in my experience.

Yeah. Yeah.

So do you know roughly what sort of things you get done, what you do with your boots?

Well, first of all, canting. Yeah. Second thing, what I was always doing is the foot pad. Yep. Just to have more support because like I used to ski with original foot pad from the producer. Yeah. I could feel that, like, I just one time I decided to, like, well, let's make a custom one, and it was a different feeling because of different support of my foot.

Yeah.

And I could see that, like, all these movements I'm trying to what I do with my ankle and foot is actually like the ski reacts much better earlier, more control, more precise. And yes, since that time I'm always doing like foot pad counting. And last season, well actually this season, past season, at the beginning of past season, I made the custom inner boot.

Oh, the custom line?

Yeah, yeah, but I didn't have chance this season to ski much with it, so I'm not ready to tell you the results of having the custom one because like most of the past season I was coaching the athlete and like we skied, but I didn't really have a chance to use it. Much.

Yes. Yeah.

So I'm still, I'm still struggling with, uh, with my, uh, opinion about how good or bad it is. So at the moment, um, there is, there is no answer.

Okay. Yeah. Need more research to be done.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's interesting. Hey, like coming back to the, the conversation, like the analogy of the kayak, like the body inside the kayak working to kind of really move it, and the foot being the same. And how you've done a lot of work with Boots Undone. Yeah, like, um, yeah, like I get what you're saying about the supported footbed thing. Um, it's been a while since I've had a footbed that has, like, I'm putting inverted commas, like, support because I'm trying to work my foot, uh, in a way that applies more pressure. So if I can stiffen my foot with my own body and muscles, like you would be training when you are doing Boots Undone, yeah, then you're able to like transfer that force much more directly, like either through the back half of the foot or like the ball of the foot at the front, because like pressure is, is force over area. And so you'll get more force if you can put it over a smaller, stiffer area than a bigger area. Yeah, so it's funny. Yeah, like any thoughts on that?

Well, uh, there is a funny story from a friend of mine. He was a World Cup skier, uh, for like long time ago. So like old man, and he said that all his ankle injuries he got after he finished skiing, just walking on the street because at that time they were just not doing any exercise to train your muscles on your ankle. Yeah. So they were just locked in the ski boot and for many years. And yeah, when he was just walking on the street, like, couple of times he was having hard times. If you have, like, unstable surface, he was having, like, hard time because the muscles were just so weak.

Yes, yeah, yeah, interesting, interesting.

And like same, if we go back to kayaking, it's, I should probably kind of pay more attention to my ski boots and do it myself because I never, well, like all the work I did with my kayak to make it like, perform better. Feels right and perform better is actually by, was done by myself. But I've never actually done anything—

Done that with the skewer. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, you got a good point, so I should probably pay more attention to that.

Yeah, yeah, no, no, just bringing up that, like, given how— like, it just— it's cool because I feel like I work a similar way in questioning things. Like, you see something, it doesn't make sense, you're not sure if you're crazy, but you just go try and experiment anyway. Yeah, like, yeah, I was just interested if you'd done that much with the ski boot side of things, but maybe that's, maybe that's your next, uh, thing.

Yeah, that's my next, yeah, next, next chapter.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. Hey, and so the— do you find that I've seen you do a bit of rollerblade training with some of your people. Do you find that is a really effective dryland tool?

Uh, well, I was a little bit skeptical about this because I didn't really try it before. And well, again, I was talking to Stefano, and he's a very good, uh, skater, or how you call him, um, and he was like he's actually training the Italian team right now. Yeah, inline skating. And he said, he said to me that it's very effective, so you have to try it. And last summer we didn't have chance with my athlete to go and train on the, on the snow during the summer, so I decided, I decided, yeah, let's just try this thing. It's something different. It's, uh, yeah. It will bring us, for sure it will bring us new things and new knowledge and then we will decide if we want to keep it or we just forget about it and when we tried I could, I could like see that, well, I don't know how, what is the proper way to build the training program or training process on inline skates. But I was, I was, I thought that let's, let's just do exactly the same what I do in my short turns or slalom training. So we did so, and it was a very big surprise when we got back on the snow. It was like, I was surprised so much that like we didn't like both of us, we didn't feel that there was such a long break between our last session on the snow and, and this training. It felt like we just skied a week ago, last time it was a week ago, but actually it was like a few months.

Okay, yeah, right. Did you— would you say there was anything, uh, new you learned then? Because it sounds like it definitely kept you kind of feeling the movement patterns of like a sort of inclination and tilting and, you know, guiding any new things?

It was, it was, well, I would say it wasn't new, but it was confirmation of the thoughts I have on my, on my skis. It was, yeah, okay, if you don't, if you don't make inclination. If you don't incline, there is no chance you can turn the skates. Yeah, like, because it's— if you are above the skate, it's almost impossible to rotate the skate, the foot. Yeah. So to be able to turn, you have to go away from the, from the skates, from your foot. You have to incline, and then it happens much easier. Another point was, another point was there is almost no chance to turn if you are not working with your pelvis. If you are, if you are in a counter position, no chance you can turn. Like, yeah, just, just that you are, you are just going straight. You want to turn, but it's not, not happening. So that was, that was a good point because like On the skates, what I feel that I have to work with my pelvis and my hips and my lower body way more than on the skis because on the skis you just put, somehow you put the skis on the edge and ski will turn but on the skates it's not happening.

Yeah, I did a webinar last week on like fore and aft balance Yeah, and I was pointing out, um, like rollerblading, like when people rollerblade and do short turns, like you on your Instagram, that girl. Yeah, like her upper body is— it's very easy to keep it stable and quiet. Yeah, like so much more than, than skiing. Yes, would you agree?

Yes, I agree, but I also think that this relate— this is related to the surface because you have— well, if, if you train in the on the good surface, then it's always constant. Exactly.

Yes, I was saying to the people on the webinar that the, the reason why is because, like, on the rollerblades, there's friction consistent, like you said, sort of feedback on grip. And so your upper body doesn't feel like it's all over the place when it puts the fore and aft balance wrong. But on snow You move too forward too much, too back too much, and then the pivot point changes and now the ski is sliding, and then you're twisting your body to try and stop it. And so I just thought it was really interesting, um, that, you know, that's, that's something that really shows out. And the main thing really is, is just the friction.

Yeah.

And yeah, like, that's really it.

Um, Do you train much on the rollerblades?

No, but I've been thinking of, uh, of getting a pair. I was— I got the skateboard to kind of, yeah, do it, um, but also for another couple of reasons. But yeah, I've been thinking about just trying to find a cheap pair to just, just play with those feelings.

Yeah, I was— as I said, I was— I, I couldn't, I couldn't really— when we were training on the rollerblades, I couldn't really feel the improvement or how could I bring this kind of movement to my skiing or to her skiing. But as I said, when we got to the snow, I was like, we both were really surprised how—

Okay, how it was very transferable, would you say?

Yes, yes, yes, it was, it was very similar and it was like so much control, you know, like, well, I don't know how, how long is your break between, between the end of the season and beginning of the next ski season, but we had, we had like something about 3 months. And, uh, like, I always feel kind of weird first few days on the snow after such a long break, but here, here after this trainings, it was It was like much quicker. Yeah, it was like, yeah, from the very first run it was good feeling.

That's cool. Have you ever— have you thought about trying to go to like the skate park and play with it more inside like a bowl so then you get more of a three-dimensional? Correct.

Yeah, because you have a terrain, like, yeah, changes. And, uh, yeah, I was, I was thinking about this a lot, but, uh, I guess I need to practice more just to have more control and, uh, yeah, better, better protection here.

Yeah, because that was the reason the skateboard really— like, I'm gonna learn. I mean, with the coronavirus thing now, all the skateparks are shut, but I was working towards going back to like riding the halfpipe. Yeah, because of the fact that in skiing you're always— when you're turning on a slope, you're changing fore and aft balance. Yeah, constantly. Like, like, he's like— back to your thing, it's not always shin pressure on the boot, right? And so I really wanted to experiment with trying to get my body to feel like the fore and aft changes, which is so much more dramatic when you're going up and then back down and then onto the flat and then back up again on the halfpipe.

Light. Yeah. And I thought that would be a really good training tool to just— what I was, what I was using just to understand how, how I should move with this fore-aft balance on the skis. I was, I was using a lot of ski, like skiing with my ski boots.

Oh yeah, yeah, cool.

Just, yeah, just to understand like how do I have to adapt to the changes of terrain, because on the skis it's obvious that it's— you can do it, or you just can forget about it. And yeah, they— for example, terrain changes and you stay in the back position, you feel slightly uncomfortable, but it's not that you are kind of dying because of that.

Yes.

But with the ski boots, it's, it's a little bit different, because if you, if you don't adapt, then you are just falling.

You're falling. Yeah, that's a very good point. Made me think of when I was in, in Aspen. I was really trying to figure out some things in my mogul skiing.

Yeah.

And what really clicked was I, I just stood at the bottom next to this restaurant where there was this mound of hard snow, like as though a mogul was there, and I took my skis off and I was just moving my foot like how would I have to really feel to go you know, up and over smoothly and still allow my center of mass to keep, yeah, going forward. Because with the ski on, the tail is like digging in and you just don't get— you don't get the same feeling of accuracy.

Yeah, yeah, right.

Yeah, so that makes total sense what you're saying about the boot skiing.

Yeah, but I also think that like if, if we think about, um, going from the slalom ski and going to the ski boot skiing, then it's just the question about the changes of your support length, right?

Yes, yeah.

So what I'm trying to do now is I'm trying to change the skis pretty much every week. I mean, changing, trying to ski with a different ski every week. Yeah. Because, and then it's kind of like the transition from one ski to another. If you spend, for example, a lot of time on your slalom skis and then you go to GS, long GS ski, then it's again, you need like some time to adapt. But if I just found out that if, well, at least for my skiing, I found out that if I change the skis like pretty much every week, then the transition is so much easier. You just don't get used to one pair and you quickly jump to another, and you always kind of have to think like, what do you have to do with your balance, with your movements to make this this key turn better.

Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. You know, I thought I'd share something. I was reading like a textbook about like the body and, and that sort of stuff last night that I hadn't read in a long time.

Yeah.

And it was this section about like motor patterns or movement patterns, and the guy gave the example of of a signature, like when you sign the back of your credit card, a signature.

Yeah.

And, and he said, like, most of the time we thought that, like, so that would be a certain set of muscles and movements of joints in the hand and fingers.

Yeah.

But, but the thing is, once we do it enough, like, if you then did a signature on a gigantic blackboard where you're now using your arms and your spine as well as your hand, yeah, you probably wouldn't see much difference in how it looks. Like, it would be very recognizable.

Yeah.

And so yet that's a completely different kind of pattern. Like, it's not just the wrist, it's like the whole body. And so it was really interesting for me to see that, um, and I was thinking about how a lot of Ski coaches, we, we use our hands to— when we're stopped, we use our hands to describe like what the feet are doing. Yeah, right. Like, this is what they're doing in the transition. And I was thinking, I bet you with some people, like if you ask them to describe— like someone who's maybe not skiing so well and you're trying to help them— describe how they were transitioning using their hands, I bet you would see the same faults. Yeah, with how they move their hands and arms. And because I was doing it and I was, and I was even seeing that, oh yeah, when I move my hands and I'm describing the top of the turn, like my chest leans in, like inclination. Yeah, right. If you try it now, like just think about doing like a real, like a really steep run trying to get high edge angles. Do you do the same thing?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Like you don't just do your hands.

Yeah.

Like even your shoulder blades, everything.

Right. I think, I think you, your brain is, is so busy with this thinking and like analyzing what is your movements actually that like you're not only your hands starts, starts to move. So you're kind of like Moving pretty much the same way as you would move on the skis.

Yeah. Yeah. And so this guy in this book went on to say it's, it's a feeling like what we learn are more feelings because they even took a monkey and like cut out of the brain the part where they thought like the motor pattern part of the brain where they thought that the movement lived.

Yeah.

And what happened is the monkey kept doing the movement pattern, but it would just use different muscles, but it could still do it. So say it was like, you know, pick up a ball and throw it. It could still do it. It didn't stop it when it took out the original, like the most efficient way. It just did it with a whole different set of muscles until you— until they cut out every single possible opportunity. And that's when it couldn't do it anymore. Yet if they took away— this is the interesting thing again. If they took away the sensory part, so the feelings of pressure, tension, it was like it was completely back to square one. It couldn't do it.

Yeah.

So most of our movement patterns are in feelings and sensory stuff, not in the actual actions of the muscle part, like of the whole core. Like, I found that so interesting.

Well, what I found out actually when I started to run the courses, there was a, like, the model, the way you, the coach would explain to your, to his students, it was just saying that you have to do this, this, this, and people were trying to do it, but I found that when I started to run courses, I was really looking forward to hear the feelings from people when they do exactly the same move or exercise what I do, just to compare my feelings and their feelings.

Their feelings.

Yeah, just to understand if we are on the right track or if we have a completely different feeling than—

Yeah.

Then I was, I was forced to, to see the difference in my movements and, and his movement because this actually helped me so much, uh, in my skiing because I was, I was getting the feedback. Uh, if you have 10 people in your group or 5 people in your group, you have your own feelings and then you have 5 other sources from where you could get the information and compare it. Yeah, yeah, that was a good, good actually point.

Yeah, absolutely. And I bet you had some good breakthroughs because of that with, with the group and yourself.

Yeah, sure. And like the, the, the benefit what I was getting is actually like most of the time especially at the, like, very, very low level skiers, I was— we were having different feelings. And I was, I was really forced to pay attention to, like, little details. Like, yes, what is, what is, what is the difference? What is, like, why this person gets something different than, than I get? Yeah, and it was like I was— I started to actually pay a lot of attention to like this little things. Yeah, it actually brought me to the different, let's say, different level of analyzing things.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's very cool. That's exactly what I feel I have to do when people come in here and they go, my back hurts. On the right-hand side, right here. And I have to like watch them move and like, how are you doing that? And yeah, you have to, because I'm used to the way I'm moving with no pain at the moment. And yeah, like how would it be possible to do what, recreate what they're doing? It's, um, yeah, it's a very good point you make of that. Yeah, really good for your own learning. And also, well, stopping at that point of like, no, you don't get it. I just feel this. I move my hip in, forward and sideways. Keep doing it. Which is what so many people say to, you know, their athletes and students. Yeah. You'll get it one day. It's like, probably not.

Yeah. Most likely not.

No, no, probably not. Because you're still, you know, you've been skiing for a while and you failed that course like 3 or 4 times and, you know, no, it's not just more javelin turns. It's like trying to figure out what you're doing in that turn, you know, that's actually gonna help you get through.

Yeah, well, you just, you just mentioned about the pain in, in, in the lower back, and actually I just now I remembered that going back to the topic of angulation and counter rotation. I remember that I had a lot of pain in my lower back at the end of the day when I was trying to like carve or whatever, do some, some like some turns with the big forces.

Yeah.

But when I started to analyze and move differently, like the pain was just gone. And yeah, like, now I, now I feel 100% strong.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Very interesting.

Yeah.

Hey, so, um, Thomas, if we're going to kind of maybe bring it up with a wrap-up here, so would you say sort of in your own skiing and thoughts on skiing currently, because of course they might change in 2021 But yeah, but currently in 2020, you are really trying to use inclination and, and be as aligned as much as you can in, in nearly all your turns. Like, give us a summary of what the main things you are currently really kind of paying attention to in your skiing.

Well, if I have to pick The main focus on my long radius carving turns, most of the time I pay attention to my pelvis and my lower body. So I'm trying to find the strongest position, like where I can get a lot of power, like most of the power, and bring it to my ski. So I would, if I would have to suggest, I would suggest just trying to experiment and trying different positions and compare the feelings and compare the way the ski behaves and then find the most powerful position. And if I talk about short turns, any short turns on the moguls, on the like soft snow or hard snow, the most attention I pay, I would say, to— well, first, stability of the upper body, because if you are like— if you are twisting or wobbling all around, then it's difficult to pay attention to your skiing, actually. So I would I would first pick the stability of the upper body and then footwork and ankle work inside your ski boots.

Nice. Yeah, cool, great. So that's in a nutshell, that's kind of what you are teaching on these courses next year?

Yeah, this, this would be— this was my focus in the last few years, and this I think this will stay for at least next season.

So if people are interested in getting in touch with you for these courses, how can they find you?

Well, I think the best way is to go through the social media because we have a website, but at the moment the website is only in Russian. So I guess the best way would be to go through the social media channels and just text. And I'm always open to talk to people. Yeah.

And that's Thomas with two S's.

Yeah. It's Thomas Marnix on Instagram. And I guess it's the same on Facebook.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cool. Perfect. Well, I've really appreciated the time you've taken to have a chat, Thomas.

Yeah, thank you so much for, um, yeah, making it happen.

Yeah, no problem. Good to talk. I hope one day it's more than just talking. We get to go and, and ski and, you know, maybe run a camp in Russian and English together.

Yeah, definitely. This would be, this would be a different, different experience. And, uh, I'm, I'm kind of interested to to like start working with other people because this brings you the knowledge from different people and talking is one thing but actually seeing people live and seeing how they move is a little bit different. I guess, well, everyone could explain and can explain much more also with hands or like showing different drills on the slope, on the snow, or off the snow. So this is, this is interesting topic and I would, yeah, I would definitely go for it.

Excellent. Um, all right, well, stay on the line. I'm just going to, uh, stop the recording now, but, but thanks, Thomas.

Thank you. Thank you.

This episode is brought to you by Carv, the digital ski coach. Now, one of the features I've had the most fun with all time is simply the fact that Carv tracks every single turn you make. I treat it a bit like Strava, so at the end of the day it tells me exactly how many turns I've done, and those numbers keep adding up across the season. So last season in Australia, I had a few days where I was doing nearly 2,500 turns, and my legs were tired, but it was really cool to try and have that number there motivating me, and I'm quietly working my way towards my 1 millionth turn with Carv. So the other metrics I've been diving into lately, and these are new for this season, are very unique, and these are turn corridor and turn radius. And I don't see many skiers using them, but they tell you a lot about the shape and flow of your skiing. So the turn corridor shows you how far you're traveling across the hill, or the time almost between apex apex and how long you're taking to transition, while the turn radius measures the actual arc you create once you start the turn. So these can be different. You can have like a very wide corridor, say 18 meters, but a lower turn radius, or the other way around. So when you compare the two, it opens up a whole world of experimentation, and it would be a bit like a race coach will set different types of race courses to influence a racer or skier to change the timing and mix it up. So I encourage you to look into this if you've got Carv and play with it and see if you can manipulate it, because it's only going to improve your versatility. So I keep my Carv on my boots every single day because you never know quite know when like a change in technique or a new ski resort or skis will show up in the numbers, and it's great at the end of the day being able to check that, or even after the fact. And I'm really looking forward to the day I open the app and I see turn number 1 million. So if you want to explore your skiing in a completely different way, check out Carv, the digital ski coach. And thank you, team, for sponsoring this episode.