Warren Jobbitt Interview - Shifting roles,learning from injuries snd skiing better than ever

This episode is brought to you by Carv, the digital ski coach. Now, one of the features I've had the most fun with all time is simply the fact that Carv tracks every single turn you make. I treat it a bit like Strava, so at the end of the day it tells me exactly how many turns I've done, and those numbers keep adding up across the season. So last season in Australia, I had a few days where I was doing nearly 2,500 turns, and my legs were tired, but it was really cool to try and have that number there motivating me, and I'm quietly working my way towards my 1 millionth turn with Carv. So the other metrics I've been diving into lately, and these are new for this season, are very unique, and these are turn corridor and turn radius. And I don't see many skiers using them, but they tell you a lot about the shape and flow of your skiing. So the turn corridor shows you how far you're traveling across the hill, or the time almost between apex to apex, and how long you're taking to transition. While the turn radius measures the actual arc you create once you start the turn. So these can be different, you can have like a very wide corridor, say 18 meters, but a lower turn radius, or the other way around. So when you compare the two, it opens up a whole world of experimentation, and it would be a bit like a race coach will set different types of race courses to influence a racer or skier to change the timing and mix it up. So I encourage you to look into this if you've got Carv and play with it and see if you can manipulate it, because it's only going to improve your versatility. So I keep my Carv on my boots every single day because you never know quite know when like a change in technique or a new ski resort or skis will show up in the numbers, and it's great at the end of the day being able to check that, or even after the fact. And I'm really looking forward to the day I open the app and I see turn number 1 million So if you want to explore your skiing in a completely different way, check out Carv, the digital ski coach. And thank you, team, for sponsoring this episode.

Hello skiers and welcome back to another episode of the Global Skiing Podcast.

I'm Tom Gellie, and today we are chatting with Warren Jobbitt.

Warren is a Canadian ski instructing legend with a huge amount of experience, vast array of knowledge, and someone we can all learn a great deal from. In this episode, I wanted to chat with Warren about his recent shift in changing work from being really heavily involved with the Canadian Ski Instructors Alliance as head coach for the Inter-Ski team and director of all the courses across Western Canada to now doing more his own thing.

We also get into his recent injury to his lower leg and what he's learned from that and how now he's coming back skiing better than ever.

And finally, some really interesting discussions just around coaching, as we both really enjoy the aspect of ski instructing where, where you're the coach. So I hope you glean a couple of really good nuggets out of this episode.

Someone like Warren, we can all learn a ton, a ton from.

So I really hope you do get something from this. And, uh, yeah, thanks for tuning in.

Let's get into the podcast. The reason why I wanted to get in touch was, I mean, a few reasons. One, uh, your, your experience in the ski instructing world over so many years, um, but then also because you've— there's, there's been a shift. So you're in this role working for an association, and then that's kind of like changed pretty drastically So I was just interested in, uh, what you've learned from that, or, um, yeah, just your— do you want to maybe start on, on that? So talking about, for those who don't know, what, what you were doing for quite a long time and, and then now what you're doing.

Yeah, well, for about 25 years I ran training programs, um, the professional development program in Western Canada, Alberta, and Central Canada. For 13 years traveling all over the place and going to every ski resort in my region and training snow schools and ski instructors. And that led to running the— all of the courses in Western Canada for about 12 years. So 25 years working solid as a, as a trainer, um, with the CSIA and, and up to, you know, I participated as an interski team member and then an assistant head coach and then head coach for two interskis as well. So it's really been, you know, it was quite the journey. I traveled a lot of places, I met some really incredible people, did some really fun things, right, in that part of my life. And through all of that, over those 25 years, really had an opportunity to, I guess, one, fall in love with what the root of ski teaching really meant to me. And, uh, and now after my transition, I've rekindled that, and it's become the core of who I am and what I do today. So it's been pretty exciting.

So, so like expand— oh no, maybe give an example of that if you could, like, like an experience or a story or, or something that you mean by like, yeah, what that you— what you found in, yeah, and what you just said with the coaching.

You know, part of, part of any job is the job, right? And you know, managing courses. There's so many things involved in the management side of what I was doing that I could have been managing a business in a big city center wearing a jacket and a tie every day. You know, there's that management side of it, and there's— there was a— at times and over the years, I think that connection to what I started as a 19-year-old traveling out to Sunshine Village in Alberta for the first time all alone and being there teaching skiers and seeing how they fell in love with the sport. And so all of these 30 years later, now I'm, you know, I'm not tied to the management of programming and I can just go and teach skiers again, right? And teach them without— actually teaching the student in front of me how they can better become an efficient and an effective skier, as opposed to teaching them a methodology and a specific technique. And, and there's a difference there where, where— and you have to when you're, when you're training ski instructors to reach another level of certification there's a doctrine, there's a technique, and, and that's what you're— it's what you can slip into, teaching the message and not the people that you're teaching the message to. And now, without that tie— not tying me down, but it's not the whole purpose of what I do. The purpose of what I do is to help people become the best skiers and teachers that they can be. And along that journey If they decide to rate themselves against a specific standard in our— in the, the CSIA and instructor's world, then they do that. But that's part of their journey to being a ski professional as opposed to just a certified ski instructor. And I think there's a difference there. It's not a— you know, there's, there's a gray area, of course, between the two, but I think there's a distinct difference between somebody who has is training to be the best skier and teacher that they can possibly be versus somebody who's trying to get a 6 out of 10 on a specific maneuver or a task, a run or a task, right? And so to me, there's a difference, and I'm excited to be able to, to do that now. And as I, I, I'm happier teaching than I've ever been in my life. And I'm a more effective teacher. And last year I felt that, and this year I realized why. And it's not necessarily because I've become a better teacher, but the people that I'm teaching are not the people— they're not trying to pass a certification course that I'm examining. They're not trying to make an interski team that I'm the head coach of and I'm selecting that team. So they can when I'm— when I ask them to try something different, try to add something new to their skiing, they try it 100%. And if they fail, it doesn't matter. If they crash, it doesn't matter, right? Whereas when I'm— when I was their boss, as somebody who might say, well, yeah, you're going to become the next little course conductor, or you might make it to the next interski, even though you're working on their skiing and they want to learn they were always trying to ski perfectly and final form, whereas now my athletes and the people that I work with, it doesn't matter what I think of how they did. And so it's this really incredible difference between how they perceive my, my relationship, I guess, with my students now. It's completely different.

That what it makes me think of is Like, that, that sounds like coaching. Like, the definition of coaching is what you just described then. And, you know, I think we're all selfish. We're all really doing things because we want those things for ourselves, you know, the feelings on snow and, you know, for skiing as an example. But, um, yeah, you're in a position now to really deliver that part to the person, not through some other— like you said, like, like the, the package of, of becoming an instructor and ticking off, off these boxes. I— yeah, I, I got that feeling because I had maybe a little of a similar change from when I, uh, you know, switched careers from ski instructing to becoming like a physio— physical therapist kind of person.

Right.

And, um, but I still kept teaching, um, but being outside of the association I was, uh, you know, usually working under, yeah, it really changed the way I taught. And there was a lot of freedom. And, um, I think it's interesting when you get down to it, to when you start asking the guests or your students, your skiing with, really, like, why are they doing this? Like, why have they engaged in your services? And, you know, and, and even getting beyond, like, why do you want to become a Level 3? Why do you want to become a Level 4? And, and then what? And then what? Like, what do you— what's the end game there? And, um, it feels, it feels a bit more liberating because I feel you can maybe ask those questions, whereas when you're, when you're a trainer taking a Level 3 course, you know, you have an assumption that person's just there to get their Level 3 and that's about it. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I think that's really interesting. So you also had at that time, uh, a, a physical hurdle, right? Instead of all like, were they actually— what was the timing? What was first?

Uh, it was between— yeah, okay, the broken leg, uh, January of 2019, and then made it through to Interski. To this day, I, I don't even know how I actually made that flight and moved around. I, I know it took— that was, that was a tough one. But, uh, and then it was the summer following that where, where the change happened in my, my career. So Yeah.

Do you think there was any— like, do you reflect, you know, on that and think there was something like a message? Or like, you know, is it— was that— do you think— or just— I don't know, when some people, when they have that— I mean, because, you know, for me, if I suddenly shattered my tibial plateau, like, all my plans and everything for the, for the next few years, it kind of have to change. Yeah, yeah. So I don't know, upon reflection, anything in that?

Yeah, you know, the two things, I guess. One, the, the broken leg made me reflect on my career, what I had done to date and what I may or may not be able to do after that moment. Um, and then the change of, of career actually gave me the time to heal as quickly and as fast as, you know, and effectively as possible, right? That if I was still, you know, I had that whole summer off and fall too. It was a full-time— I made that my full-time job, was my recovery. And without that, I don't think I'd be skiing the way I am today, that's for sure. If I was, oh well, I could go and spin on my bike for 20 minutes, or I can go and do these stretches or these exercises that my physio prescribed to me, or I could hammer away and get this work done. Knowing me, I probably would have skipped a bunch of my rehab sessions and done my work. So there is, you know, if I look back now, that was a real bright spot to making for that change in my professional life for sure. Without it, I wouldn't have made it. And at this point now, I turned 50 May long weekend, and I personally don't think I've skied better in my life. No, I might have had moments where I was a bit crazier and that I would jump off of things or maybe go a little bit faster down the bump run, but it technically, I wouldn't have done it nearly as well as I am today. And there's a lot of factors I can tie that back to the broken leg and the rehab as well, like 100%.

How come?

The— but so on the, on the technical side, there was, you know, when I started rebuilding the leg because it had gone to zero, you know, strength was, you could call it zero, right? As I was non-weight-bearing for a long time. And then a very slow process to, to come back. As I was rebuilding the strength in my left leg, my broken leg, I realized that even though I didn't have the strength, my technique in some of the exercises— when I tried to do a single leg squat for the first time, because I was rebuilding it properly, I, I could balance on my broken leg better because of the way the muscles were working to guide my knee straight and to support the foot. Whereas on my right leg, I had the muscle mass and strength, but as I started doing my first single leg squat, my right foot would roll in, my knee would drive inward of my big toe, and I would lose my balance. As I started to realize that even though the overall strength of my left leg was significantly less than my right leg, I was actually considered myself stronger on my left side as I continue in my ability to move functionally the way that I need to move on my skis. And as I got back onto, onto my skis, some of the muscle groups that I used in the weight training process and the physio in my therapy side of things and that the way I was rebuilding made me a better skier. And to the point of which we're now, I think sometimes I think of the muscle group that's firing to balance as opposed to bending a certain joint, right? Or, you know, I think of it because if I don't feel my glutes engaged at a certain part in the arc, I'm not standing in the middle of my ski. I'm not aligned to the stance that I'm promoting to my students or, you know, that I want to achieve in my own skiing. So that was huge for me. So the awareness in your body grew like quite, quite a lot, uh, exponentially, you know, because I always, you know, when my skiing was, you know, I tried to make a certain move for a certain reason, um, but now I understood what muscle groups were involved to make that move. Sorry.

Yes, yes, Madagascar. Yes, okay, okay. And then just give me 40 minutes, okay? Awesome. 40 seconds. A bit longer than 40 seconds. 40 minutes if you can. Yeah, thank you, Archie. Okay, sorry, I lost my train of thought. So yeah, you, you'd been Yeah, you'd gain, you'd gained a lot more awareness in your body and, and feelings that you could take onto the snow. So yeah, and know when you were in the right spot. Yeah, yeah.

So instead of not just the feedback from the snow or my turn shape or speed or performance, I knew in my body before I sensed it or noticed it in my arc. And that was, that was pretty cool. And as I started to teach that to my students, I had people who would say, at the end of the day, my quads used to be burning all the time because that's what they were using to hold themselves up, really, as their muscle group. And they said, wow, like, they don't hurt.

I do.

They're not burning at the end of the day, but my, my glutes are killing me, you know. But then as that developed, they became way more efficient in the way they skied and way more effective, right? Because of the way they were. Yeah, stuff. So that was pretty huge for me. The other one was fear, and I hadn't experienced fear in my skiing life since I was 7 going up the chairlift my first time, and I was afraid that I was going to fall off, and I asked my ski instructor to make sure he put the safety bar down right away. And I can still remember that moment. And, but since then, very zero fear. And I, the day I broke my leg, I can remember it vividly. I was training the level 4 course conductors and our interski team, 14 of them, I guess, in the group. And it was just before lunch and I was having a great day of teaching, you know, that, wow, this is— things are rolling well. I was, you know, at least from my perspective, thought things were going really well, and I was skiing really well, and it felt great. And, you know, I had— I literally had no thoughts of fear at all at that point. And then I broke my leg, and when I got back on snow Eventually, the end of October 2019, I didn't even realize how afraid I was going to be. You'd hear skiers miles away behind you that you'd never in a million years worry about, and I was worried about that. I was worried about people coming around. I was worried to balance, to put any weight on my left leg. And I know better. I know that if I lean away from my outside ski, that's not going to go super well. And it was worse for me to do that. But there was just this, this wall, this block that stopped me from getting any sort of weight under the left leg and moving and all that kind of stuff. It was pretty wild to the point at which where I ended up for myself, for my own personal skiing. I ended up connecting with a sports psychologist to help me through that part of it because I wasn't getting anywhere. I wasn't getting where I needed to be. And as I worked with her, I realized that now I know what my students feel.

Yeah.

A, being a beginner again, because even though I knew what to do, I knew what it was supposed to feel like, I knew it was supposed to look like, I know what the results were supposed to be, the outcomes. I couldn't do it. So then take that into a new skier or a skier who's trying to perform at a certain level for a certification course, or a beginner novice skier who's going down a blue run or a black run for the first time, and those types of things. And it gave me the, I guess, the understanding of what they'd be going through because I recently experienced it myself, but also the tools to help them through that because I had to go and learn those tools for my own self.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's great, that fear part. Yesterday, the, the last few days, there's been some big surf and, um I've been getting into surfing this summer because I couldn't travel for, for skiing. And so picking up that at a later age is— it's not easy. I think surfing is one of the hardest sports I think I've ever tried. Yeah, but you know, I've listened to some really good surfers and some online instruction about how to do things or make sense, and, and then I get out there and, you know, these big waves come and then there's these better surfers around me, like really doing it well and I'm falling off and, you know, and looking down because I'm scared of the steep takeoff. And it's been really good because I've been reflecting on like in how do I get myself into a learning space so that when I'm out there, when fear comes up, like what's can I still draw on the things that I know I need to work on that will improve my surfing? And so that's been really interesting in how, how simple it has to be. Like, like I was saying over in my head, like one thing is people— surfers stand too side-on usually. Like, that's a common mistake. You should actually face more front-on, like, like a sprinter.

Okay, right.

See, and you probably don't surf, so you'd think— you see a surfer and they're always like like, like, you know, their arms, one front, one behind, looking over their front shoulder, right? But actually, all the good surfers, when you look closely, they're, they're more like in a sprint start position. So the back hip is turned forward. So I just kept saying in my head while I was out there, like, like, get ready to run, get ready to run, get ready to run, catch the wave and think about running, running. And I just, I wasn't saying it too loud, but So I wasn't a crazy guy, but, but, and then the next wave was the best wave and the biggest wave I've ever caught.

Wow.

Because I just, it just, I knew what I needed to do, and, but I had to have like a trigger word, something that I knew. I know what position to be in to run in, to run in, and I had to just keep reminding myself to get out of the sideways, go that way. And, um, yeah, but it makes me think like next time When I'm with someone, I'm gonna know, like, okay, we're trying to do something on a short, short turn on a steep black run, and you're now trying to put in more edge and you're going to get a lot more deflection. Like, like, what's the one simple thing that, that's gonna trigger them to remember that, even though the fear after the second turn, the speed picks up, is gonna be coming like right in forefront? So, uh, yeah, like, I, I'm just, I'm saying I, I get Like, I think this is, uh, it's really important when we like take a step back and the fear thing and, and be in the student's shoes, be a student again, makes you a much better coach.

Yeah, yeah. I picked up, I picked up golf, not, you know, I'd golfed before, you know, as a teenager and stuff, and then I picked it up, um, about 5 8 years ago maybe now, where I actually took some lessons and being a student again, that helped me for sure, right? It's okay, I'm learning something new. But there's really no— other than losing all my golf balls in the woods and having a high score, there's really no consequence to a bad shot, right? So there wasn't— it didn't have that that fear what could happen, something could go wrong, I could really get hurt here, that sort of thing. So those two experiences combined have allowed me to understand where my students are coming from a little bit better, I think.

I think that's a very good point you make there. It's not just learning and being a student, but it's in a sport that has serious consequences, psychologically changes things, and And that's a huge thing in skiing, isn't it? Like, the people that tend to go straight through all their levels and pass their Level 4 are those people that don't have the fear thing often. There— would you agree?

I'd agree, like, completely.

Yeah, you know, like, and the ones that don't and take longer, uh, they can often understand everything quite well, but the, uh, yeah, that the fear thing really gets in the way. So yeah, that already what you've said there, that's That's probably going to be my biggest takeaway from this, this, uh, chat so far. If we switch gears, I sent you some questions. Yeah, um, yeah, like one, one I think that I'd love to hear your, um, thoughts on is like, who's an example of a skier that perhaps is an outlier or breaks the rules of what is traditionally thought of as good technique? Is it— is there someone that comes to mind?

You know, the, the one person in kind of our, in our current world, or just a little bit past, would be somebody like Ligeti, right? Who, you know, broke all the rules but found a way. And it was really tied to, for him, and as you listen to some things he says, it's all about the equipment change and course setting changes and stuff like that, right? That, that forced him to make these changes. But, you know, he was somebody who, who had a massive impact in understanding how to really, in my opinion, get a ski to bend. Because they're on the, you know, the, the skis that were not turning as much, right? That was that shift back to a straighter, longer ski sort of thing. And at the time, and, you know, he realized that if, you know, the more the ski tipped over the more it's going to bend. He can clean, you know, carve a cleaner arc than anybody else, therefore most likely be faster. And he was for a very long time by a significant amount. That, that's one. You know, more recently, uh, Hirscher, you know, and his ability to transition differently than everybody else in the sport for a number of years. Um, those are kind of two things that were done differently than, than the masses in more recent, kind of current race ski racing world. And, um, those are— but where that leads me though is looking at how they made the changes and why they made the changes that they made. And where I see some of these things change and over time is people look at, you know, Ted Ligety, you see all his angles, and then they try to create these angles without understanding how he got to that point, right? So you get the hip dumpers, you get people leaning away from their outside ski to get a steeper line of inclination, you get people trying to ski like Kerscher through transition and just stay low. But what does he do after that from that stance? What did that stance allow him to do is completely different than what, you know, the, the masses are trying to do. And they try to stay low, they displace their feet because they can't, you know, create a platform and get the shovel to bend and the tail slides. So it's funny, right, that you see— but those are two guys that, that stand out to me in things where trying to understand what they're doing, why, and what it did for them helped me look at skiing in a different way.

Okay, yeah, cool. Is there anything in like— so then you're doing like, say, an analysis of Ted Ligety. Like, how would you describe then, you know, I think you mentioned the bending of the ski, but if you went further into that, trying to explain that to, say, a group of level 3, level 4 instructors How would you describe, you know, as opposed to what they see, which is the angles and the, the, the really exaggerated inclination, like, how would you get that across so that maybe someone would start going there, but, but perhaps not with just the intention of having a snapshot of lying on the side of the snow?

Yeah, not trying to look like Ligeti. Yeah, get the ski tipped on so it's onto its sidewall or, you know, onto steeper edge. But you need to explain that, you know, the steeper the edge angle, then the more the tip and tail are going to bend if you're balanced in the middle of the ski, right? Um, and primarily on the outside ski. And so talk about that and then show there are ways to, to create a steeper line of inclination there are ways to balance on a ski that then is bending and is helping the skier change the direction of their momentum, that kind of idea, and show them how to balance on that as opposed to staying away from constantly trying to get a steeper edge angle or get closer to the snow.

This episode is sponsored by Carv, the digital ski coach, and one of the updates I've really enjoyed this season is the addition of separate SkiIQs for moguls and short turns. In the past, Carv scoring was mainly built around carving metrics, which meant everything was viewed through that lens. But Carv have gone deep on that research and completely separated what makes a great short turn or mogul turn different from a carved turn. To give you an idea of how accurate it's become, the person at the top of the Carv leaderboard right now isn't a carving specialist, it's Olympic mogul skier Matt Graham. So the best SkiIQ in the world at the moment is coming from someone who lives and breathes bumps. And to be honest, my own highest SkiIQ is also in the moguls, which makes sense because that's my favorite type of skiing. What's really exciting this year is the addition of turn tempo, so basically your turns per minute. It's such a simple external output that's incredibly fun to play with. So good skiing isn't just about edge similarity or parallel skis, it's about how you interact with the terrain and whether you can change your tempo on demand. So seeing numbers like my quickest tempo of 117 turns per minute in the bumps gives you something concrete to compare, refine, and work toward. I've been working with Carv since 2020, and every year I'm genuinely impressed with how much the product evolves. They keep expanding what you can measure, and they're covering more and more of the turn types that skiers actually use all over the mountain. So if you're interested in tracking not just your carving, but every turn you make on the snow, check out Carv. And a big thanks to the team for supporting this episode.

Right, so it's starting from, from the platform up. It's how do you tip the ski over, and then how do you balance on a ski that is carving, a ski that is bending, so you can keep that edge angle or even slightly increase it as the turn progresses.

Like, did you have anyone this, this last winter, like, you were, you know, who was quite high level that you were going down this road, like, that's what they sort of needed? And could you give examples of, you know, maybe any drills or the way you got that across?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, one that I, I trained with that, um, you know, was The, the idea that they had in mind of getting the pressure on the— try to pressure the outside ski, uh, early on above the fall line, uh, try to create a steep line of inclination, that sort of thing. And so they're just, you know, they're pushing themselves off the uphill ski before their direction change had finished on the previous arc. And so, you know, very, a very quick weight shift and then a press off the outside ski. And then that ends up with a, you know, the center of mass moving away from the outside ski. So it, it gives you that sense of a line of inclination, but there's no balance on the outside ski. It's not bending, it's tipping over. Yeah.

Yeah.

The shovel's not engaged. And then typically then they would then just drop the hip down to the snow. Which gets the ski up. The hip is, you know, center of mass a little bit back, hips are back, so it really loads up the tail of the ski. With the sidecut these days, it's the tail pushing them around the corner, not the shovel pulling them around the corner. And they're using maybe, you know, if their skis are $800 tip to tail, probably only using about $50 worth of ski. Yeah, for their performance. And, and, but They look back at the track, there's a, you know, a nice clean arc. It's carving and they feel forces and all that kind of fun stuff. Uh, so the, um, the progression for that skier was to stay balanced on the downhill leg longer, all the way through transition. Right. So that allowed them to, you know, as forces were decreasing, and that allowed the toppling effect to take place. You know, upper body center of mass, hips over top of the feet, and then you create a new line of inclination through using the adductor group of muscles, rotating the femur in the hip socket, roll the foot over onto the first met head idea, and then the shovel starts to pull down the hill and balance, and you create that much steeper line of inclination above the fall line as a result with very little effort and very balanced.

Yes, I think like that's one thing I think I see more often than not in that— and I keep saying level 3, level 4— but that in that, that part where people try and as truly trying to take this to the next level is this— they don't finish, they don't stay on the downhill hill ski. Like, it's, it's really interesting, isn't it? They're all like— I don't know if it's this early weight shift idea, or get your— like, they're thinking, oh well, I've got to be balanced on the outside ski for the next one, I'll do it early. And it seems to really, uh, it's very counterproductive.

It is, because it creates so many— when you start to push off that new outside ski You know, tipping, rotation, you know, in when you step on it, if your balance is back because you've dropped your hip in the previous arc to get some sort of, you know, the tail action, well then you come across, you're probably back, you rotate a little bit to try and find some sort of center and you're nowhere near, you know, using the, the, the whole length of the ski at that point, right? And it's a chicken or egg. Then you got to drop it and you got to do all these things. Yeah.

Do you know what's— you know, it's really interesting, uh, working with Carv recently, uh, asked them to get some data on like different levels of skiers up to expert skiers on where in the turn is the max pressure, uh, experienced. So these data sensors are picking that up. And, um, and also for how long. And so what I found really interesting was, like, say, in intermediate to advanced, the max pressure was earlier in the turn and it was for longer. So spread out a lot of the turn, started quite early. As you got a little bit better, it got a little bit later and perhaps a little bit shorter. The experts had a small period, probably at 66% of the way through the turn. That's, that's like even later. That's where it happened. And it just, it makes total sense, right? You're trying to come around and go get some redirection, deflection that way, and you— and things are trying to not— things, all the forces are actually trying to not do that. You've got a— so, so there's that, that resultant increase in pressure as you're, you're working against that. So I found that really interesting that even with all this data, like, that's, that's what I think a lot of people are missing, is they're trying to do a lot too early, push on things, and, and that's not what, what the, the best skiers are doing.

No, no, exactly. I, you know, and that's— I think of an arc these days for me is You know, my direction change portion going into the apex and out of the apex is a significantly less amount of time or distance on the snow than the release of that, but staying on the downhill ski because it's still bending and carrying you in the direction that you want your momentum to go, and then gliding to create a platform to redirect again. And that's a— to me, it's maybe one-third a direction change, and two-thirds of releasing that direction change and creating a platform for a new one.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. All those movements are setting you up so then you're in a really good position for that one-third part again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. Was it— so was there anyone else, you know, how I mentioned like I thought it's interesting, back to the outliers thing, like someone like Raymond Zennhausen, who's like a giant, 6-foot-something, and is a slalom skier. Like, that's the kind of person you'd see in downhill, um, these big tall people. So I mean, I find that really interesting and how he's able to like, you know, get a gold medal and he towers over all these people, and it's in a sport that is, is, um typically, you know, quicker, uh, quicker feet, shorter people are dominating in. So yeah, anything like— what, what— any thoughts about that if you've watched his skiing? Like, what you maybe see, like, in someone like him?

Yeah, you know, I, I, I've watched his skiing a little bit, um, and it blows me away, for one, how fast he can move, right? Uh, I talked to my personal trainer who I continue to train with, with the leg, and, you know, from the rehab and stuff, and he talks about the ability to generate force but not to apply force to the ski, but to be able to, you know, create tension in the, in the muscles to utilize the joints to deal with chaos. And I think that's— when I look back at his skiing, I think that's what he is able to do differently than anybody else who's maybe attempted to be a world-class or, you know, a gold medalist in a slalom at a 6-foot-6 frame.

Yeah.

And I, you know, and it's, it's a hunch. It's— I haven't looked into it. I haven't looked in— I don't know what he does for his training regimen or anything, right? My guess is he has that ability to create, you know, that force within his body to be able to deal with anything out of control. Because if you take somebody who's 6'6", everything's so much longer. So, you know, a degree difference down at the ankle for him and some, you know, somebody who's 5 foot 8, like I think Herscher, I think he's 5 foot 8 or something like that. But you look at that, if you carry it all the way up, you know, through his body, you know, that 1 degree at the bottom is what, 15, 30 degrees maybe, all as when you look at where those lines would exit. Yeah. So I think he needs to have— my guess is that ability to sense when he's, you know, getting into a chaotic situation and be able to create that tension and force in his body to not get as far out of balance as maybe somebody who's that same height but with that less ability to do so would get a little bit more out of balance, a little bit out of control. And, you know, Lionel Messi is king. You're an inch off and that could be a second to the bottom of the hill.

Yeah, yeah. I think it's really just really interesting studying these outliers because often what can be a disadvantage, some of these like incredible athletes end up using that as their advantage because they have to figure out a way around it, like you said. So because of his, his, uh, line of error, like, is so much smaller. So he has to be that much more accurate and just, like, confident of what he can deal with, that it's perhaps forced him to just push that, that, you know, comfort level of, of dealing with these, you know, um, chaotic situations. And so then, like, uh, if people don't know, I've Pierre Rouel. You, you obviously know Pierre very well, uh, from the Canadian Coaching Association. And Pierre is on the other end, like, quite, quite, uh, short, but he is an amazing skier. And maybe you can speak more about him and what you see in, like, being, you know, shorter levers and lots of stuff, like some things that maybe came from even the way he coached. Or is there anything you've got you'd be able to give us insight into around, um, someone like Pierre?

You know, when I've skied with Pierre, when I watch him skiing, when I've heard him doing coaching updates and presentations and things like that on technique— technique has, for him, would sound the same way that you and I would talk about it, and the person beside him. What I think Pierre talks about the the, you know, one of the best people here, one of the best ways that he talks about skiing is about skiing with momentum and, you know, carrying momentum from one panel to the next side in constant motion, right? There's always something changing. And when you watch Pierre ski with that in mind, you can see that but you have to look very closely when you watch somebody who's over 6 foot. Some of those movements create bigger, you know, larger looking angles, say, you know, separation as an example. Again, if, you know, if the center of mass is that much further away from the base of support, you might need a little more counter to get towards, you know, feel a little more balance to the outside ski. So those degrees would look larger. But they're being used for the same thing. And Pierre's ability to talk and teach people how to balance on an arc and ski with the momentum and not against momentum is what separated him as a skier, in my opinion, and also a coach. In his skiing, of course, he was lighter than most of the other people he was skiing with, but he had the appropriate equipment on for, you know, his size and his weight, but his ski would bend just as much as anybody else's because of the way he leveraged it, you know. And in his— he would leave a pencil line in the snow and it would be a millimeter deep, not a centimeter deeper, you know.

Yeah, right.

And but yeah, you know, and I think that's what what differentiated or differentiates Pierre, not only in his coaching but also in his skiing, from what my observations have been over the years.

Yeah, yeah, that's interesting, the momentum thing. Like, um, because I have this image of a video of— I think it was him and Steve Smart at Silver Star, um, maybe when they were doing some training when they were in the demo team together, and they were sinking down like one of those black runs. And it was just amazing because, you know, you've got tall and, and smaller, and— but it was just like, it just looked so cool to just see that difference in, like you talked about, the level of different level of separation. But, but basically the, that momentum and the arc to arc kind of, um, flow in their skiing was, was really cool to watch. So, um, hey, so then can you think back, are there, are there one or two big aha moments for you, Warren? And maybe even if it's— if it might be recently in your own skiing, like where you've gone, you know what, wow, that's a different way of thinking or approaching the way I'm trying to do X at this point in the turn.

My— I think my biggest simplification of skiing came from not drawing— and this, it'll take a second to get through this thought process, so hey, bear with me— but not drawing that typical C on the snow, you're illustrating your base of support, and then the line, oh, you know, quite a bit inside that and almost straight down representing your center of mass. In a two-dimensional form or drawing, you would think that you've got to get your center of mass inside your base of support, right? Because you see these two lines and, you know, that kind of thing. But from a three-dimensional drawing, if you were to— and I've done it recently with using, you know, my video editing and trace this, the line of the center of mass and the line of the, you know, the skis, the arc on the snow that it left. And two things: A, that, you know, the center of mass isn't that far inside the base of support than what I think a lot of people think they have to make it get to. You know, my inseam is 32 inches, right? Like, I buy pants, I buy a 32-inch inseam. And so even if my hip was on the snow and my leg was relatively straight, you've got to bend in the boot and —so yeah, my center of mass could never be more than 32 inches inside that line, and that's not very big, right? And then if you take that into a 3-dimensional model, and the fact that in a larger turn—let's use a long radius turn or long, medium to longer radius turn—the range in the joints is not huge. Like, I don't shorten 30 inches. And so, you know, maybe the shortening of that when I did a guesstimate to take the 32 inches and then measure it here and there, maybe 5 inches of travel. So 12 centimeters. Yeah. How much the leg length is changing in an arc, in a bigger turn. Now bumps and, you know, we can— there are exaggerations of that, but in a performance carved bigger turn, there's not a ton. And so When I stopped trying to get inside the arc and actually balance to my outside ski, the result was steeper edge angle, ironically enough, and more balance. So then you sense more, you know, the sense of pressure under your outside ski, but being in the middle of it, the shovel, the tail's bending, and I'm getting a tighter arc without being as far, quotation marks, inside my base of support. And so when I realized that in skiing a number of years ago, to stop trying to get inside the arc and try to balance through, you know, on an— on a diagonal line on the outside ski, my body actually you know, you tip the ski over at the foot level and you balance with the upper body, you know, through the hips primarily, you know, like how we're angulating, if you want to call it that. And as a result, you know, there's the— how far inside the base of support is irrelevant. And I find now coaching people level you know, people trying to get their Level 3, Level 4, even Level 4s trying to make the, the next Interski in, in 2023. There, that thought process of the difference of trying to get inside the base of support versus tip the base of support over and balance on the outside ski, uh, it makes a massive, massive difference. And that's a huge aha moment for— it was an aha moment for me a number of years ago, and I continue to see that as a really big aha moment even in our top skiers in the country, ski instructors in the country.

Yeah, and I think that's like what I find fascinating is like I love how you said you laid it out first with like perhaps already a preconceived concept everyone's seen that base of support, ski path, center of mass path. Um, but then you brought it into real relative terms of like, okay, well, if my leg is this long, how far could I really be inside even at the like most extreme, you know, point? Ligety turn, right? Yeah. Like, it's, it's— yeah, I think that's really cool. So you've like helped get people's mind about like following where your thinking is at. And then you talked about the balance against— balance, you know, with the outside ski thing. Because so many people have heard that. We all sort of, you know, if you've done an instructing course, we all know that. And that's probably been said the most out of perhaps anything in ski instructing. Um, but the way you described it then is really Like, I love that. It's a new way. It's very kind of concrete in terms of, you know, we all know like the inseam length of our trousers, that sort of thing. So yeah, thanks for sharing that. That's awesome. Yeah, that's really cool. Would there be any— would there be a second one that you say, maybe not more recently, but like maybe when you were back going for your 4, like a moment where you had like, oh, that's what they mean, and I've been I conceived it in a different way. Yeah, yeah.

Well, you know, the disclaimer— I got my Level 4 on straight skis, right? So let's go back a little ways. Um, you know what's funny is that my eye-opener on the Level 4 was patience. And that to allow the ski to do some of the work. And even back then, you know, back with the straight skis, you know, where, you know, good old racing skis where you had to get all your weight and a couple of friends on the shovel of your ski at the beginning of the turn, and then everything in the back and your kitchen sink on the tail, you know, to get the ski to bend and get some sort of carve going on. Um, but it was too still allow though, you still allow. We talk about it a lot today, allow the ski to do some of the work for you, right? And be patient with it. Take in back on the straighter skis, you— we had to twist the ski on the surface of the snow a little bit more than we do now to get the same turn shape. Uh, we certainly had to maybe be a little bit more mobile and move a little bit more, but to, to sense what the ski is doing as a result of my actions instead of just making the action for the sake of the action. Make the action for an outcome, right? Yes. And it was patience because I was hopping all over the place in my stretch pants and my padded sweater, and it was different, right, that to, to actually, okay, make a move, hold, just wait a second, see what happens, and then if what you wanted to happen happened, great. There's your patience. If not, maybe you had to do a different move or at a different time or a different degree or a different rate of action. But at the end of the day, more, you know, it was, it was that patience that, yeah, taught me to understand contribution and effect. If I give this move, yes, this is the, the effect of that contribution is this with the ski. The ski, yeah, gripped or it didn't grip, or I lost the tails or I didn't lose the tails. Yeah. If I bring that all the way through from, from that when in my early 20s, you know, through 30 years— it's been almost 30 years as a Level 4. Um, when I take that through, I teach that even to myself when I get— when I want to go and rip down a steep black run fast and lay it over, all that kind of fun stuff. I'm trying to be patient, right? Because when I try to move quickly to— then I end up doing things. I push off the uphill ski, I twist the body. I'm trying to do things before you should be doing them. And there's that time component that when I ski faster on steeper terrain in my head, like you were coaching yourself on your surfboard. I have to— I coach myself to be patient. Let the ski grip, let the shovel hook up, right? Balance on it. Don't try to twist everything around the corner really quickly to slow yourself down, right? You'll get there, but it's that trust and that patience. And so that, that was something I learned very early on in my level 4 career, my— when I was training for the Level 4, all the way through to— I, I still talk about it today.

Do you remember if that was— did you come across that yourself, or do you— did you feel like a trainer— there was this moment? Yeah. Do you remember?

Yeah, yeah, I do, actually. Yeah. Um, uh, Norman Kreutz said it to me. Where he said, "You move a lot and the moves look great, but they're not really doing anything for you." And then in true Norman Courage fashion, he skied away from me. And he'll never remember this story because it was insignificant to him, I'm sure, at the time. But for me, this was, "What was that?" You know, I stood there, I think what felt like for an hour. It was probably 30 seconds before I started skiing, trying to mull this over. And it took time, you know, a couple of days really to figure it out as he gave me some drills and made me follow him, follow my timing and things like that when I finally figured it out. But that was the moment where he made a statement that was— it wasn't, okay, put your hand here and touch your pole here and you know, do these angulation things or pressure control, edging, pivot. None of that language came out. And then skied away from me.

I think I love that so much, right?

Yeah. To this day, I've used that as a teaching tactic as well. You make some statement and then you ski away because One of the things I find in a lot of our instructors trying to get to the next level is they, they want all the answers. They want all the answers. And sometimes you, you just can't, you know, this at some point the learner has to, to learn what the instructor is teaching. And you can't, as an instructor, you can't be the learner. You can only be the the instructor, coach, whatever you want to call it, right? So yeah, that was a, you know, that was a very extreme case of instruction and then the learner having to figure it out.

Yeah, later I still remember it. Yeah, I think I love those sort of stump you statements that people say and for some reason you know there is a lot of importance in it, you know, like it's not a throwaway comment because you stood there for, do you know what I mean, 30 seconds. You're like, wow, why did he say it in that way? Um, I've had a few of those in the last few years, um, trying to figure out what, what this guy that, uh, that I really look up to in the running world is meaning because he says things in very in a very different way. And as soon as I know that, I'm like, what? I have no idea what he means by that. I spend the next few months trying to figure it out, and then I have this amazing ability at the end of that to teach it to others in a really effective way. That's, um, yeah, because I really owned, owned the learning. Um, back to the, the patience thing, um, I, if I was to share a similar— can I share a similar thing that the patients think? How I, how I figured it out was I had to tell myself— I can remember at Threadbow, I had to like anti-turn. So I had to think about doing movements that were the complete opposite to what I was thinking would do this. So it wasn't enough to just stop doing the movements, I had to do the opposite movement, which delayed it perhaps even further. And I felt this reaction that was bigger and a little bit further down the line because of— yeah, it's going like— yeah, delaying everything, like taking, taking it in the opposite direction. Yeah. So yeah, yeah, I think that's a, that's a really important one. So many people do, uh, I think at the end of the turn do too much. There's just like, yeah, and then you disrupt the ski, can't bite because it's on a fine little edge and you're trying to do all these things to it. It's gonna struggle to just sit on that snow and run, you know.

Yeah, so yeah, that doing too much is, you know, I, I think of I, I look at the Level 4s that I've passed and then the few that have become Level 4 course conductors and then interski team members, and there's this commonality amongst them all. When they pass their Level 4, there's this complication stage of development where they— and I, I went through it as well myself— where I took everything I'd ever been taught and I try to teach it all and ski it all. And some of these things were conflicting, and so— or at least at the time, I, you know, were probably conflicting. But you take all these little ski tips, morning sessions, 2-day courses, 5-day courses, all these things you've done, you put it all together, actually really complicates skiing because you have so much information and knowledge, and some of it becomes knowledge. But from there, then they all tend to, um, start to say, okay, well, does this really work the way I was taught or way I thought it did? And you start to experiment with different things, right? And you go, oh, maybe that doesn't— this one doesn't really work. This one works in all situations, so maybe we'll keep that one. And as you start to experiment, you can clarify, kind of a third stage, you clarify You take the findings of your experimentation, you know, okay, this worked, this worked, this didn't work, get rid of it, get rid of this, get rid of that. And then you're left where I call the kind of the final stages of simplification, where it's so darn simple. And I remember when I passed my Level 4 that spring, um, I was asked to go out and do a photo shoot up at Sunshine Village in May, right? So it's blue sky, perfect snow, still wintry snow. And, uh, this, this slope that we were on was, you know, it's that perfect blue pitch. There's no side hill, there's no rolls. It just goes. You can never go too fast on it because it just doesn't get that steep, but it's steep enough that you can you know, ski at expert levels. And we go out, and my photographer was Martin Olson, and he was, he was in my role, you know, 3 people before me. So he was like, he was with the CSIA when there wasn't a full-time year-round job and volunteers wrote the manuals, but he was the one that put it together. He was the head of the technical committee and so on and so forth. And so, you know, an idol of mine, and almost everybody in the Instructors Alliance, you know. And anyway, so he was the photographer because he knew exactly what shot he wanted for the manuals. And so he would say, okay, do this, okay, good. Now walk back up and you do it again, half turns. And every time, oh yeah, that's good, that's good, that's good. And I'm thinking, wow, am I— like, luckily enough, back in the day, sunglasses, no hat, no goggles, you know, no helmet, or else my my head wouldn't have fit anymore. I was feeling great about my skiing, brand new Level 4, early 20s, and, you know, this guy who's my idol saying, oh, that's really good, yeah, good, good, good. And we're not shooting digital, of course, it's all on film. He's packing these rolls of film in his bag, and at one point, you know, after a few hours, he goes, yeah, I think we— I'm pretty sure we got what we wanted. Skied really well. And, you know, so I've got to develop it, but I'm certain we've got what we need. Thousands of pictures, and we probably put 2 in the manual. But he said to me, he says, okay, Warren, he says, you know, you're, you know, skiing really well, and you know, great day, I love what you're doing. And because every time he said, what are you doing, what are you thinking? And I'd list everything I'd ever heard about skiing, and I probably only did 1 or 2 of them, but I listed the whole thing every time. He's, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He says, you know, that's great, you're skiing really well, but— and then my, you know, all the air comes out of my hat or my head. And, you know, and he says, but when you finally get it— and then there's a, an ex— you know, a swear word in there that I'll leave out— but he says, it's, it's pretty disappointing. "and I sat there and then he, like a Norman Croyd sort of mentor, just skied away into the sunset. Never saw him again." No, I'm just kidding. He left me standing there going, "What? What do you mean?" All day long I felt like he was saying, "Oh, that's really good. You're really good. You're really good." But when you finally get it, It's going to be very disappointing. And what does that mean? And it took me years, like I'd say more than 10, to finally figure out what he meant. And that's where I got to that point where, holy geez, this is, this is actually a lot simpler than I've been making it out to be. There's a couple of things that I can do to tip the ski over. There's a couple of things I can do to point it where I want it to go, and the rest is just alignment and balance and letting that go and doing it again, going the opposite direction. And, you know, it— and it was— it, it's somewhat disappointing when you think about the simplicity of skiing, but we spend all these years learning that we want to— we make it bigger than it is, we make it harder than it is. Now, that's— it's not saying that perfecting it isn't difficult, but what skiing truly is, it's actually quite simple. And so when I realized that, that was a— that was big for me in my, my progression.

I, uh, I relate that to— I mean, this idea of like walking, like we can just walk down the street you don't— I mean, you can, you can look on a phone, you can do all these things walking, uh, but you go back to the beginning of your life, walking takes a whole lot of practice, a lot of failures to get to that masterful simple phase of like, you know, tell me, how do you walk? We put your right foot forward and then your left foot forward, and then you just like— it's that simple. But, but I think like what I'm saying here is because like I say, people listening want to get to a level of simplicity are still like, like you said it, we all go through all the complication and all that stuff. And then our amazing brain, some, you know, we kind of work it out. And like you said, you throw away this, throw away that, that works, this, what, you know. And then it comes down to literally like, you know, I just want to go there. Yeah. And that's it. You just put your ski, don't do too much. And just let it happen. But people are going to be disappointed if they go, right, tomorrow I'm just going to go out and make it simple. Like, you have to go through the struggles. Like, I'm even thinking with the surfing. Like, I had a surf day yesterday. 90% of the time, I was probably swearing. I was like, this is stupid. I don't want to do this. Like, I'm exhausted. Like, all these people are just catching all these great waves. I can't do it. And I'd get one, one good wave. And so 10% of the time I felt like I got something, but I kept thinking, no, like, I'm gonna reassess my surfing at the end of the winter. So I've given myself like, like a 5-month period to really then take a good hard look at myself and go, where was I, where am I now? And hopefully I see some things have been simplified but it's because I've had to go through these struggles. And do you know what I'm saying there? Like, like, I think that's the joy of getting to this point, is the simplification. And then you can literally turn off and ski these runs and just, I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do that, and it just happens.

Yeah, and that, that's, that's the, I guess, the beauty of any sport really. Is to get to that point where it's automated, right? And you can— then it becomes a game, right? Where, you know, I ski down a hill now and I don't think about what I need to do to get where I want to go. I just decide where I want to go. And, you know, if I'm skiing down a slope and it's— and there's a roller and I'm feeling adventurous, I might say, oh, I'm gonna, you know, I gotta just like— I'm gonna carve right over the top of this thing, or you know, another time maybe I decide to ski more parallel to it and carve underneath it. But, you know, there's— it's just a simple, uh, thought process of the— it's more the outcome and where I want to go and how fast I want to get there, and whether it's carved or skidded, big or small. That's about it, right? And you're thinking of that, not the mechanics that will create all of those outcomes.

Yep, yep, yep. But we all had to go through the thinking of the mechanics part to, to get there. Just like, like Archie can now run around, but he spent months and months and months, 9 hours a day practicing, practicing, practicing, practicing, practicing, practicing. And, um, yeah, yeah, it's well worth it. It's well worth it. Hey Warren, is there anything else you wanted to— before you wrap it up, um, like mention— I know you've got— you've started to— you've got your own site now. Uh, do you want to mention that, or if people are interested in skiing with you, how they can get in touch?

Yeah, for sure. You know, there's, um— I'll be running camps next season at Sun Peaks in Fernie, Jasper in the Collingwood area, Blue Mountain, and Alpine Ski Lake Louise, working on that right now as well. And just, you know, just ski camps. So it's not— I'm not running programs. It's not a ski week where you come and get a few tips and have a good time. Certainly have a good time, but what I'm trying to do differently from that is, is a high-intensity 2-3 day training camps max, not a full week and have people really learn how to learn is, is really the focus of the camps. And of course, I'll give them the what to learn throughout it, but really coaching them on how to learn. How do you go through a training day? When you watch a World Cup ski racer, they have a very, you know, they have a— they'll, they'll be in the gym for a half an hour, hour, whatever it might take before they get on snow. So they have an activation phase, just their body awareness, get their body activated. And then there's the ski activation phase. Well, they'll go out and they'll do the movements in skiing through exercises, through drifting, carving, you know, exaggerated movement patterns, whatever it might be. And then they put— then there's a plan for the day as to Maybe it's a line that they're going to be working on. Maybe it's something technical they're working on. They'll go through that, but then they'll also perform it. I think a lot of people go straight to the performance part of their training day, right? They know what they want to work on. They go out, they do a couple of hop turns, they do a couple of bracage type things, and oh yeah, there we go, I'm ready to go. And then they go to performance mode. They try to implement or add something to their skiing that they've never had before. And they're trying to do it in final form at the normal speeds, expert, advanced, maybe they can take the speed down a notch, but there's no real understanding of what the body needs to be able to, to do, where, when the body's activated so that you can add something to your skiing. What is that? What is that addition to your skiing? Why do you need it? How do you apply it? And then before you leave your day. And so you've got it once or twice, you have to start to work on the outcomes. You know, what if it got steeper now? What if it was flatter? What if I tried to— what if I had to do a tighter arc? You know, how would I apply this new knowledge or this piece of the puzzle that I'm adding to my skiing? Before you finish your day, and regardless of, you know, I think a lot of people do block practice, you know, and I use basketball as an example where they go, they grab a ball, their feet are positioned in the right position, they're handed a ball, they don't move, and they just work on the mechanics of a free throw, say. But then they get into a game and they can't, you know, they're— because you've got pressure, you've got people coming from all— the ball is thrown to you, maybe it's a bit low, maybe it's a bit high, and they can't then create that same mechanic of the throw, and they miss the net, right? They don't get the basket. And so there is a time and place where you have your learning environment that is flat, it's open, there's nobody around, and where to add a movement to your skiing. But if you don't, then once you understand, what I call contribution and effect. If I do this, this is what happens. You don't have to be perfect at it to learn more about that movement. You can go a little bit steeper, a little bit straighter, a little bit rounder, maybe on a side hill, and you start to apply the, the knowledge. And people, I— they do two, one or two things. Either they go in that block practice and they just train it one exercise all the time, all the time, same slope and then they have to go to performance side, but they don't know how to apply that movement at a different time, a different rate, a different degree. And, or the other side of the spectrum where they just go out to performance mode all day and they just go up and down, up and down, up and down, up and down, go for an hour lunch break, go out and they try and get back to activation. They never do. And, and it's great. Sometimes can be a negative training effect. So that's is the camps are designed to— long story short, the camps are designed to teach people how to train, how to— what does a day look like if you're trying to acquire and consolidate and refine a skill? And you can do that within a very short period of time. You can actually learn something in a very short period of time if your training day is done and mapped out properly. So that's the nature of the camps. And, uh, people can— my website is, is up. Uh, registration won't be open until probably the end of August, but there'll be— if anybody's interested, they can go on to my, my website, warrenjobbitt.com, and they can just put their, their email address in. You know, there's a notify me button, and so when camps are about to come live, people will get a notice via email from me saying camps are going to be open for registration and 24, 48 hours, something like that. And then they go on and, and book, and that's sort of what they'll experience. It's a— I kind of think that any level of skier, or any level of, you know, this season I'm gearing it towards, uh, level 2s type of skiing, training for a level 3, or level 3 training for 4, slash a 4 training for inter-ski. So I call them advanced camps and expert camps. Um, people that are— can get around the mountain. Now, they don't— you don't have to be a certified ski pro to do it, but that's roughly the level. Yeah, that, that is described on the website. People will be able to read that and select which camp is, is best for them. Great, awesome.

And it's J-O-B-B-I-T, correct? Warren Jowett. Yep, go check it out. Great. Well, thanks very much, Warren. I, I really enjoyed it. If I would say, like, I'm, I'm going to be thinking all this week about fear, or just considering fear more whenever I'm talking with someone, and even back out in the surf again, how do I manage that and work with that? And then the, uh, the inseam Yeah, and what's cool is like that's in my head, like I now— one word, in scene, and I get this whole conversation we had is going to be present, um, maybe even when I'm surfing I'm going to be thinking about that relationship of, um, yeah, yeah, what's going on there. That was really cool, so thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. Yeah, I was watching some surfing the other night and noticed that this, you know, inclined position, sort of rotating around the edge of the board thing. Um, but just, you know, I think it's just brilliant when you have a slight tweak on this, on the, on the similar stuff, you know, but it just sort of gets the cogs going. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's just there's something in it your brain is recognizing, ah, that's a little bit different, it's going to help me behave, I'm going to respond a little bit differently because of that, um, 32 inches. So yeah, thanks very much, Warren.

Yeah, man, no problem. That was fun. I appreciate you inviting me on. This is— it was a lot of fun. It's exciting to talk skiing, and you know, I've been following the stuff that you've been doing. I really enjoy it, and it, you know, it's like you said, it takes all it takes is one little tidbit of information or something said a certain way you haven't heard before, and you go work with it. And, you know, at the end of the day, that's, you know, that's my career goal, is to continue to simplify. And as my body ages and things there change, is to always be an efficient and effective skier. And, you know, regardless of what moves I have to make. So it's the repertoire of movements that I try to play with all season long, and at some point they're going to become very relevant to my own skiing in my 50s, 60s, 70s, and hopefully much longer than that. Yeah, yeah.

And I would agree with the, the, the, the— I don't think it's just you feeling you're skiing better. I, I think I see it in— I was just looking, you know, in preparation for this, looking at some of the more recent videos, just the videos you put up of long turns and skiing off-piste. And there's, um, there's, there's a definite look of just confidence and, and like a little bit of, I don't know, don't care, but in a good way. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, you've sort of broken out of— you can just tell that there's been a role change you've broken out. And even someone, I think, commented and mentioned, you know, your transitions look different from 2000-whenever, like, what, the last industry, you know, that guy commented.

Yeah, yeah, it was like, great memory, I think I responded.

Yeah, yeah, people are— people will watch you. Yeah, so I think that's really cool, and I think that's what, you know, keeps inspiring us. And, you know, we just can't wait for for the snow to fall again and, and, and, and, and, and keep it going, refining it further. So thanks a lot, Warren.

Hey, no worries. So there we go.

Thanks for tuning in. Thanks very much to Warren for his time and all of his insights. Greatly appreciated. I— you can tell I learned a lot and took away some really important pieces from our chat. Now there plenty more Global Skiing Podcast episodes if you haven't checked them out before. You can find them on Spotify and iTunes. And I'm also going to jump in here and say my own project and focus at the moment is bigpictureskiing.com. So that's my own business with my friend Sam Robertson, ex-world champ ski racer, where we focus all our ideas resources, teaching concepts, everything onto the website with the aim of helping you become a better skier. So if you're really into skiing and love the kind of stuff we talked about in this episode, I invite you to go over and check out the website, www.bigpictureskiing.com, and you can do a free trial to just see if the kind of content in there is for you. Cancel any time, but I really think you'll enjoy it and get some really great insights into how you can become a better skier. We upload stuff nearly every week, so go in there and check it out. Some of the things have been put up recently. Sam put up a great line and timing video talking about the distinction between edging and pressure because he finds a lot of people get that wrong. Like, the idea of trying to turn early and pressure the ski early is not really what is going on. And so, you know, coming from someone who's raced at World Championships level, this is some pretty great insights people can get. Also some other ones at the other end of the spectrum for sort of more intermediate skiers in there. We always try and make it applicable to both instructors and people who just really like skiing, so there's something in there for everyone. That's enough about that. Thanks and see you next time.