Personal Branding for Podcasters: Building Audience Authority with Joyan Chan

Warning, this podcast contains brutally honest opinions. If you're easily offended by the truth about your favorite shows, you might want to skip this. If you crave a no-holds-barred journey into what makes a podcast unskippable, then listen in as we, Tracy and Tom Hazzard, put our expertise and relationship to the test here on The Binge Factor. Hey everyone, welcome back to The Binge Factor. I'm Tracy Hazzard and I have Joy Ann Chan today. I was on her show. She's got The Show Up Show and Finding Joy. They're fabulous shows. She is a brand yourself with podcasting expert and she's got some great insights into how you really look at doing that sort of self-branding model of podcast. And that's what we're gonna talk about today. So let me tell you a little about Joanne. Joanne Chan is an award-winning leadership coach, international speaker, and podcaster. And the core of her work centers on helping leaders and entrepreneurs develop unshakable confidence to build a rockstar personal brand, gain worldwide exposure, and earn recognition for your expertise. She's been featured in numerous magazines, publications, all kinds of things. and awarded an Outstanding Leadership Award in Dubai. And the same year, she was also named a successful person by Britishpedia. She has such great insights because she's juggled 2 shows. She's looked at this idea of, does one fill my needs? What if I shift my business and how do I grow a second one? We're gonna talk about that in our episode today. So let's hear from Joy Ann Chen. Find Joy and The Show Up Show. Joy Ann, so happy to talk with you again. I mean, we had so much fun when I was on your show. I'm so excited to have you on my show. We're going to talk about Find Joy, The Show Up Show. But you started podcasting for a reason. What made you decide to dive into this world of podcasting?

Wow, that question gives me chills. Because it's talking about the reason, like the why, right? The big why, why we all started podcasting in the very first place. So when I first started podcasting, it was 2021. I can't even remember which year was it, but yeah, 2021. And it was about 3 years ago. Yeah, because we are recording this 2024, right? So I was a nobody back then and I just came online, wanted to build something for myself, right? Because I just went through depression. It was because of COVID you know, there was like the most— it was the darkest period of my life. And I just came out from depression. I was trying to figure out who am I, what am I really want to do, like why am I here, like what is my purpose, right, for being here. So, and because no one knew that I was going through depression, I showed up online and started sharing my story because I realized I wanted to be real. I wanted to be authentic for the first time in my life because This, long story short, on the outside world, I was like super achiever. I was young, successful. I had all that figured out, but deep inside I didn't. And only I knew that, which is why I suffered with high-functioning depression back then. So I decided that, okay, enough is enough. This is not how I want to live my life. I want to live a life with joy authentically, right? To show the world who I really am. So I started showing up online and sharing my story, and I attracted people from all over the world, like, just telling me, June, thank you so much for showing up and sharing the story because I'm also going through depression. I can relate to your story and things like that. I realized I wasn't alone, right? And that gave me the confidence and the courage to keep showing up and keep sharing my story despite having all this criticism and judgment and negative comment from my friends. They were like, June, what are you doing? So yeah, that eventually I just wanted to start a podcast so that I have a proper platform for me myself to share my story and also to have others. So initially I started out just wanted to, with the pure intention of just wanting to share my story like I did. And so when I first started, it was all solo episodes. You know, I just wanted to share my story, my experiences, give a bit of like mindset tips and things like that. And then I started having guests on my show and it just turned out to be I call it my happiness project. So it was like my happiness project. So, which is why I name it Find Joy with Joanne. I hope that answered the question.

I love that model of the interviews started to creep in for you, that it wasn't actually how you intended to start out, but then they started to do it. Did that connection make a bigger difference in you moving into a more joyful place?

Yeah, for sure. So at one point of time you'll be like, okay, this is not about me anymore, right? Because I started out with the intention of, okay, sharing my story. And, but I realized, okay, this is not about me anymore. Here's actually the other reason why I started podcasting, because I listen to podcasts even before I have a podcast, right? And I remember when I was going through depression, I was in my room, I was all depressed and I didn't know what to do with my life. I listened to podcasts. And I'm getting emotional, right? Because it's real. They got me through those feelings, that emotion I didn't know how to process. So I realized that, okay, I listened to podcasts and realized that I wasn't alone, right? And I could seek help. And by hearing other stories and other people's stories and how they came out and how they became stronger, how they turned it into a purpose, right? Turn your pain into a purpose. So that was my biggest inspiration because I listened to podcasts. So I believe in podcasts.

Yes. And you know, I think that that's something that if you're not a podcaster yet, you don't really understand until that first person reaches out to you and says, I've been listening to all your episodes. I've been binging on you and you've touched me in this way. That's when you really realize the power of being in someone's ear. And I think it changes the show at that point for you. And maybe that's where that transition happened, where you realized it wasn't all about you anymore. It was about that listener.

Yes. And so about how can I serve more? And I listen to them, right? Because I ask them to take a screenshot and let me know if you're listening. And so I know who listened to my show from the very, like, from day one, and they still listen to my show until today, right? So I always listen to them and ask them, okay, what kind of topic do you want me to talk about? Like, what kind of guests do you want me to bring on? And also, like I said, I'm a big personal development junkie. I listen to podcasts, so I want to learn. Like, if I could Imagine I could interview anyone in the world and ask them any question I want. Like, hello, I mean, I would love to do that. Like, so that's why, you know, one of the reasons why I love having guests is so that I can learn from them. And that's why I love talking to people. Like, when I bring you onto my show, I learn so much from you. So that is one of the reasons why I keep pushing myself to do podcasting, to release podcasts like consistently, like on a weekly basis, just like you do, right? So Because you need more than one reason to keep going. Yeah. So one is you need many reasons. Yes.

You need many reasons to keep going, right? Yeah. It'll layer on, but that's the best part about it. The reason that you start might be different as you go along and year over year and you're finding a different place. So somewhere along the lines here, you started a second show. Tell us about that.

Yeah, it's a crazy story. I mean, yeah, who needs 2 podcasts, right?

So I don't— I have 6, so, you know, I'm one of the crazies too, right?

Yeah. So think about it, it's crazy that you have more than one podcast. And when I talked to you, I realized it's not actually crazy, it's common sense. I mean, it's reasonable, like when you understand the reason why you need a second podcast. Something that you said to me that really struck me was that you mentioned that, okay, you start a podcast, doesn't have to be— you can end it. It's like you don't have to keep going if it's not Working for you in a—

or you can pivot it, right? As we also—

yeah. It's not what you want to do anymore, right? You can pivot it. Yeah, exactly. Basically, I pivoted as well because remember my why was that I just want to share my story, bring joy to the world, and things like that, right? I didn't have a business back then. I knew that, okay, I want to be a coach, I wanted to have my own business, I want to make an impact, right? But I didn't know exactly how to go about it. So I tried everything. Initially, my business was I want to help people with their confidence because that's what I'm good at. But down the line, as I learned more and more marketing strategies, as I put in more and more work, started showing up and learning everything, right? I realized I could actually help others do the same because remember, I went from a nobody to the person I am today, right? So I realized many people starting out, They don't know what to do. They don't know where to start to start building their personal brand. And that's something that I'm really good at because I built a brand from scratch. And people started asking me for advice, like, where do I start? And if I want to start a podcast, like, I'm so afraid to go on podcasts. Like, who am I to talk about procrastination, imposter syndrome, or fear of being judged by other people? So I realized, okay, I could actually help people with that because that is the result that I have. achieve for myself, for my business. So that's when I realized, okay, if that is the business that I'm going to launch, right, that I'm going to focus on helping other female entrepreneurs, coaches to brand themselves, to accelerate their authority, you know, online space, then my podcast, Find Joy with Joanne, isn't really serving them.

Right, because that's more of the personal brand show. It's the example show, right? And you needed a show that was really about lead generation. Yeah. So a different model. And that makes sense because there's only gonna be a small subset of your main show of Find Joy that would be interested in podcasting and in personal brand creation through podcasting. So you almost had to do that. It's one of the reasons why many people start a new show rather than start and pivot the show they have, cuz your entire audience would need to be interested podcasters. And that doesn't make any sense from where you were.

Yeah, I tried to do that. So before I started my second podcast, I was asking around, like my friends who, even people who listen to my podcast, I was asking my friend, okay, so now that I'm pivoting my own business and I have this podcast, which I love, it's my baby, I wouldn't want to kill it. So they say, okay, why don't you start? I thought naturally I can start talking about marketing business on that podcast. And I tried that. I did that. It didn't turn out well, right? When I look at the numbers, it wasn't good enough.

Yeah. Well, it's a different reason that that audience chose you, right? They chose you because of your personal brand, because of your personality, because you were reaching them and touching them emotionally, not necessarily because they wanted to learn something about marketing. That's a different choice to make, right? And so, yeah, I'm really glad you split your show because some people don't do that and then they don't really understand why their show didn't carry the weight that it had before, and it loses momentum, and it also then isn't successful in the new place that they wanna be. It ends up in this weird middle. So I'm really glad you decided to split that. I think it's really good. So the show up show, and I love that idea of like show up, right? Because this is the part that I don't think most entrepreneurs understand, that 90% of being a brand, being a personality, being a coach, Is just showing up week after week for them, right?

Yeah, exactly. And I'm all about that, right? Which is why I name it this way, because I'm all about helping people to show up, like show up confidently, authentically, unapologetically as who you really are, right? Because personal brand, the number one mistake people make when it comes to building their brand or when they think about personal brand is that I have to be someone that I'm not.

It's incredibly hard to maintain that, right?

Yeah, like I have to curate this social media persona per se, which is somebody that I'm not. But I'm here telling you, no, no, no, no, no, that's a huge mistake, right? It's all about showing up as who you are, and podcasting is a perfect place for you to do just that.

I think the biggest compliment that could happen is when you and I meet in person, we both go, you're exactly like you are online, right? Like, that would be such a big compliment when people say that to you, and I'm very sure that's exactly the way you are, Joy.

Yeah, I am. Yeah, so, you know, it's just showing up and having a good time, right? And sharing what you No. So here's the thing, right? The reason why I think people suffer from imposter syndrome is because they think they have to know all the answers, they have to have all the answers, and again, they are trying to be someone they are not, right? Which is why you feel like you are an imposter.

Do you find that that's worse for women than it is for men?

Absolutely.

What about culturally for you?

Culturally, I would say not so much, but men and women, yes. Which is why I focus so much on helping female entrepreneurs, because— and here's the crazy part— because I was talking to so many of my male friends, like male entrepreneurs. I mean, it's even weird to say that, right? But we talk about— we say female entrepreneurs so naturally, but we don't talk about male entrepreneurs because we call them entrepreneurs, right?

Right, they're all entrepreneurs.

But yeah, yeah. But whereas we are like women entrepreneurs, women speakers, women podcasters. So that itself is already a barrier. And I talk to them and they tell me, okay, it's true, because when I wanted to reach out to a female coach or female author or speaker or podcaster, they will tell me, I'm not ready yet.

Only women turn you down. Like, that's what I always try to say, that, right? I was like, I've never had a man who I invited on my show turn me down, but I have had women.

Yeah, it's crazy, isn't it? So come to think about it, it's because of how we were being raised. Like, we're told we are not good enough, we have to be quiet.

We think we have to be perfect.

Yeah, we have to be perfect. We cannot do what our brothers, you know, like cousins. So things like that, which is why it's really holding us back.

And don't you think though that that's the one thing I really like about podcasting is I think podcasting, it's like doing improv, right? On the comedy clubs or something. Not that I'm a comedian by any means, although my girls think I'm funnier than my husband, maybe, but it gives you this freedom to ad-lib and to tap into and give an answer. I think that that's a really good thing. And guesting and then interviewing, it's really— you have to think on your feet. I think that gets over a little bit of that barrier. What do you think?

Absolutely. So, but the thing is, again, I had a client and she was so afraid of being on a podcast. Like, she has never done podcasting before. And she told— I asked her why, and she said, I always think that podcasting, being on a podcast, you have to be famous. You have to reach a certain level. You have to be worthy. And she mentioned the word like worthy. I didn't think that I'm worthy enough to be on podcast. I was like, okay. So I actually invited her before working with me, right? She actually turned down a podcast interview and no, actually she did the interview, but she told the podcaster not to release the interview. Like, It's crazy, right?

Oh, that's terrible.

Yeah, it's terrible. And you wouldn't know there are many people out there feeling exactly what she's feeling. And which is why I want to help people to really show up and just share their voice, even if you're not perfect. I mean, we are not perfect, right? I'm not perfect, you're not perfect, nobody is perfect. So you just have to start showing up and start sharing your voice because perfection Here's the thing, why practice doesn't make perfection. Practice makes improvement.

Yeah, I don't like that phrase, practice makes perfect. I was actually having this discussion with my daughter who is learning the guitar and she wants to be a rock star. And she said to me that if she became a rock star, and I said, well, how about when you become a rock star? And I said, the only thing standing in your way from you becoming a rock star is practice. And I said, you're not gonna get perfect cuz you'd have to put in 10,000 hours to be an expert. And we did the math to like figure out how many hours of practice she'd have to do. I was like, I think you'd have to quit school and practice for the next 10 years just to be able to say you're a 10,000-hour expert, right? So that's not possible right now, but that's not the point. The point is, is the more hours you put in on practice, the better you're going to be, the more improved you're gonna be. And that's what we all need to think, right? And you put in 200 interviews.

Yeah, exactly. Right?

200 interviews at this point that we're talking here. That's a lot of guests. That's a lot of practice in there, Joanne. What do you feel has been that improvement for you from the very first interview you did to the 200th recently? I mean, I thought you were a fantastic interviewer when you interviewed me. You asked great questions. So, but what is it that you feel like you improved in that time?

Huge. There's something that I always share on my social media is that I always share my first video that I created and posted on my Facebook 3 years ago. That video sucks. I mean, now looking back on it, it sucks so much that I didn't want to watch it anymore, but I put it there so that I can remind myself that's how I started. And look at where I am today. I improved so much. And here's what I always tell my people and my clients, like, What you can do today, right, is the best that you could do. Because if you could do it better, you could have done it better. But this is like, this is the best that you can do right now. So stop waiting for that perfect moment. Stop waiting for the moment that you feel like, I'm ready, I'm good enough, I have everything, I have all the answers. No, you will never be ready. So you just have to start, right? So going back to your question, it's all about practice. When I first interviewed a guest on my show, because I've been doing it like solo, right? When I first had my first guest, I was like freaking out. Trust me, I was really freaking out because I didn't know, oh my God, how am I gonna interview someone? Because I have never done it before. So if you have never done it before, so the reason why we have fear is because we have never done it before. We are doing something that we have not done it before. So how do you overcome the fear? You just have to do it.

That is, I think, every psychological practice in trying to get you over a fear is to like Now get you to dive into it, right? Fly on a plane, walk outside if you're agoraphobic, like whatever it is, right? You gotta dive into it.

Yeah, exactly. You just have to do the things that you fear the most. So again, it's practice, right? So I kept telling you, okay, so I kept interviewing like people every single week. And one day when you look back, you realize I improved a lot. I came a long way, but you have to Keep showing up. You cannot just start a podcast and release like 5 episodes and then quit because you didn't see any result or you don't see any result. So practice again, it helps me improve a lot. Like just keep going, right?

Do you set goals, Joanne? Do you set goals for yourself? You say like, okay, it's a new year, I'm going to set a goal for the show this year.

Not really. So—

You set an improvement metric?

No, I didn't. So for my podcast, right?

Great. You just let it flow. I love that.

I just let it flow. Yes. Because I believe that here's actually a huge shift that happened for myself, like personally and emotionally and spiritually, is that I don't wanna plan for anything. I just wanna trust that everything's already planned for me. That's actually my intention for this year, like 2024. So I just wanna trust. I just wanna trust more that everything's already planned for me. I think Because last week— last week— last year, actually, I set goals. I set all the goals, but I didn't achieve some of them. I was like, okay, but things that— all the events or all the people that I met last year, that happened for a reason. So when I look back, I was like, okay, I didn't achieve the goal because something better had happened. And if I could set goals for myself, this is like— if I set goal, this is how I look at it, right? I set realistic goal that I think I can achieve. But what if They're too low. Yeah, exactly. What if something better is about to happen for you and you are not even aware and you can't even set that goal because you wouldn't know, right? So that's my intention.

And to answer your question, I like that you set an intention, not a goal. That's a great way to look at it. I really think that so many things go wrong when we don't trust the process. We don't trust the experts that we hired to bring in to help us along the way. We don't trust the groundwork that we've already laid, right? Like we've already laid a bunch of work. I mean, I guarantee you, you didn't start posting on Facebook with no friends already. You didn't start from scratch. You already had groundwork there that you were building on.

Yeah, absolutely. So again, for people who are starting out, right, here's what I would ask them. Who is the person that you want to become 3 years down the road? So when I first started, I saw myself being a podcaster, not really a podcaster, but more like a influencer per se and entrepreneur, speaker, right? Speaking on stages and just empowering the world, like empowering the audience. So that was the vision that I had in my mind. And then I asked myself, okay, what can I do today? How can I start showing up as that person? And that I just did that. And 3 years later, I became that person because I first had the vision of the person that I want to become, right? So for everything that we do, this is how you build a brand basically, right? You have to know what exactly are you building towards. Who is the person that you wanna become? Because personal brand is you. That's it, right? It's all about you.

This idea that you have a strategy and an intention that you set, the 2 things are running in place. So you said, this is my strategy, I'm gonna be podcasting, and my intention is to trust that this is the right process for me because I selected it, and I'm gonna see where it takes me and where it goes, and I'm gonna show up authentically me each time that I do it. I think that's really beautiful. Like, I think that really, it's got all the pieces you need in it. There's tactics and other things, but when you layer them on later, you don't need them to get started.

Yeah. You don't have to have everything figured out to get started, right? But you have to start to figure things out.

I like that, the way you just said that. That's great. You have to start to figure things out, right? And that's it. I think it's really interesting that you started with solo shows. I actually find that with my client base, and for the most part, Solo shows are harder because you're carrying everything. It's all you. So it feels harder. You think them over. My clients who do solo shows re-record them in the beginning and they shouldn't, like they should just go for it. And so I actually have a strategy that I use with them, which is I get them to do 3 shows in a row. Like I want them to record day 1, day 2, day 3, right? I wanna record 3 days in a row.

Mm-hmm.

The first day is just really short. Why am I doing this? What's in it for you, the listener? I'm talking to my listener and it's really like kind of doing a promo, but getting them to do that. And it's not allowed to be more than 5 minutes long. Like whatever happens, it's only 5 minutes. That's all you have to do. Get on the mic. Mainly it's to make sure that they know how to use the mic and stuff like that, and they get comfortable behind it. But I want them to get used to talking to the listener. So it's the first thing that I do is to get them to be Conscious of that. Then the second one is, I like, a lot of times they need to get their story out of the way. So I want you to talk about your story, your purpose, your hottest topic. If your show is about business or about something like that, what is the question that you answer the most for people? Let's get that hot topic, that one that we address all the time, every time people make us repeat. Let's get that one out of the way. So that's the next thing that they record, and that's 15, 20 minutes maximum, like kind of keeping it in that world. And then the last one that they do, so the third thing is an interview. And I want them to test out all the pieces of it cuz they've gotta learn how to promo. They've gotta learn how to do, carry sometimes the conversation or do an introduction or do a closing thoughts, right? Share a lesson. And I want them to be able to do those things. And then they have to, of course, carry an interview if they're gonna grow their show. With other people's audiences, right? And so by doing it in that order, that's my typical order. But every so often I take someone who I think is afraid of the interview and I make them do it first. And I make them choose someone who's like your friend. And if all else fails and they can't do it, I'm like, you're gonna interview me. Like, and I make them interview me if that's the last one, because it's always okay to not air it if it wasn't, if you didn't feel good about it, right? The friend will understand. You didn't burn your interview if you're like your top list.

Or you can just interview people for the sake of practicing, right?

Practicing, right. I think they don't realize when they're gonna interview, and one of the things that I think your strength is, is that when we're having a conversation, you're gonna show up. You're actually at some point gonna get outta your head in it because it doesn't feel like an interview. It feels like a conversation.

Yeah, that's how I approach podcasting, right? It's not about interview. It's not about I ask a question, you answer a question, right? It's a conversation. That's why people listen to your podcast, because I can be very honest with you and your listeners, right? I've been on other podcasts and I didn't like it. It's like they didn't even know what they are doing because they just, okay, ask me a question. It's really an interview.

They wanted a soundbite, right? They want a soundbite.

Yeah, they just want a soundbite. And once I answered their question, they just asked the next question. I was like, okay, The flow, you know, exactly. It felt like, okay, I felt awkward, to be very honest. So it's a skill. A lot of people out there, they can teach you. A lot of people out there are teaching you how to start a podcast, right? Because podcasting is a trend right now. It's going to be huge. So a lot of people can teach you, okay, how to start a podcast, what equipment, what microphone, what platform, how to record it. But nobody's going to teach you the soft skills, to teach you the hard skill, but nobody's gonna be teaching you the soft skill, which is what you and me, we are kind of good at, right? Not, not to brag, but you know, if you're listening to us, right? So what you really need to succeed in podcasting.

And I think that's the difference though, is that I think I may have said this to you when I was on your show, is that there's a difference in the fact that you are a listener so that you started out as a podcast listener makes a very big difference to the show itself. And I can tell the difference between someone who started a podcast and is a listener. I can actually hear the difference. And someone who is a speaker, author, they were somewhere else and then they thought, oh, this podcasting thing, I can do this. And they just go and transfer those skills that they had in other places to podcasting and it doesn't work quite the same way. And there's a difference there. And I always try to psychoanalyze your binge factor.

Mm-hmm.

That's one of the things that I do here on the show. And I think that that's what I hear in your show, specifically Find Joy, but in the Show Up Show as well, is that you are searching out there for the thing that's gonna connect to the audience. When you're asking your questions, when you're talking with your guests, you may not fully know them, but when you hear them say something that you know your audience is gonna be interested in, or you are very interested in, you go for it. And that a lot of people leave that on the table, and that is not the best way to make an emotional connection to your audience. That's what your binge factor is on Find Joy and on the Shop Show.

Yeah, because I have to say the Shop Show is more like a business podcast, right? Whereas the Find Joy Joy is more personal, it's more emotional. Like you said, it's all about connecting with my listeners on an emotional level. So I talk about like spirituality. Relationship, for example. And I would like to say that one of my superpowers is that I can make people feel comfortable, which is very important. How do you make people feel comfortable enough to open up to you when they don't even know you yet? Like when it's the first time meeting you. And because for most of my guests, I don't know them, they don't know me, right? So the first time we come together, but always at the end of the show, after we stop the recording, they will tell me, Joy, I feel really comfortable speaking with you. Like, You made me feel so comfortable. And this, like, I would like to say it's one of my superpowers. How do you let people feel comfortable? First, you have to be comfortable with yourself first.

And that's the hard part, I think, for a lot of people, right?

Yeah. And you have to open up and you have to be vulnerable. Like, I cried at the beginning of this podcast. Like, it's not intense. It's not—

Can I tell you, no one's ever cried on my show and it happened twice in 2 days. I don't know what I'm doing this year, but twice in 2 days I made somebody cry on my show.

It's a good start, right? It's a good start.

I think it's a great start. You know what I think? I think that we all have a lot of emotion right now, and it's just when someone says to us, you're doing a really good job at this, it feels like it hits us right at a moment in time when we needed to hear that.

Because by showing your emotions, you are telling your listeners, hey, I'm real, you know, I am not perfect. Right. And I know exactly how you're feeling because you might be feeling exactly the same because you never know, right? People are going through what they're going through. You never know because with social media, everything we put out there is, is well curated, I would say. And we only show the good side of our business, but we don't show the vulnerable side of who we really are, what we're really going through. And which is why when I've— yeah, so that's the story of my depression, which is why I'm all about that.

I'm so glad that we met and so glad that we've come to know each other here because I really do think that there's a lot of opportunity in podcasting, especially for women. So I'm really glad that you're out there supporting them, getting them moving, getting them launching, but getting them to have a strategy. And I think that that's the thing that sometimes, I mean, look, it doesn't have to be a big strategy. It doesn't have to be grand. It can be, I just wanna connect with people. I just wanna find joy. I just wanna share my story, right? It doesn't have to be big, but it needs to have a why, a strategy, a purpose. And then we can layer in the right tactics once we know those things. Otherwise, I think it makes it really hard for you to take advice, for you to seek advice, for you to ask the right questions to get that advice, because it's not one size fits all in podcasting.

Yeah. And when I first started, I didn't have a strategy. I had my why, and which is why I think the first question that every podcaster, every aspiring podcaster should ask themselves is, why do I want to start a podcast? Because I have a strong why, which kept me going even though the going was tough, right? So my first show, I had a why. I didn't have a strategy. I didn't think about monetization at first, right? I was just like, okay, I just want to— this is my purpose. This is what I'm here to do. I just want to do that for free. Like, I didn't expect any monetary return, but eventually I attracted sponsors. Like, when you are putting yourself out there, opportunities will come to you, like, for sure. But you have to put yourself out there, right? You have to show people what you're capable of doing and what you're passionate about. And because passion sells, if you start a podcast with the intention of, okay, I want to make money, I want to get sponsors, it's all about that, then you will struggle.

And I also find that most people aren't willing to do the amount of work it takes to attract sponsors, right?

If it's not passionate about it, they don't want to work that I'm sure you know this, Rachell, right? So sponsorship wouldn't get you a lot of money. It's actually— no. Okay, so when you realize that, okay, actually it's not making me a lot of money, then you will quit and you will not get sponsors, I would say, in the first year, right? Because it's all about building an audience, and we all know building an audience takes time. So in the first year, if you are not getting any money, you are not making any money from podcasting, and you are putting all the work, all the effort, all the editing, you will burn out. And if you don't have a why to keep going, like if your why is all about making money, then I'm not saying it's wrong, right? But If that is your, one of your strategies for a business, great. But you need to have a strategy like you said. So for me, the Show Up Show is a strategy for my business, which is why one is pure passion. I get sponsors, great. If I don't, fine. You know, I still love what I'm doing. I'm still gonna do it. But my Show Up Show is more strategic. I have a strategy because I still run a business, right? So I see it as a marketing platform and a lead generation machine.

What do you see as the biggest challenge over there on the Show Up Show? What is the biggest challenge in marketing a business through a podcast?

I would say not as many podcasts out there as compared to YouTube channels, but there are still quite a lot of podcasts today, and which is why it's quite saturated. And how do you really stand out, which is one of the questions that I asked you when I interviewed you on my podcast. How do you really stand out in the podcasting space when there are so many other people, other experts teaching, sharing exactly what you're teaching, sharing on your podcast, right? So why would they want to listen to you is the binge factor, right? So I would say that is the biggest struggle so far. Like, how do I attract new listeners? That is the question, right? That is the struggle.

And I think you're not alone in that. Like, that is probably the number one thing I get here is like the hardest thing about podcasting is attracting new listeners, people who don't know you yet. I can get people who know me to come find my show. Like, that's not a problem, but I can't get people who don't know me yet if it's as hard as it is. And unfortunately, the ecosystem of podcasting doesn't make it easy for us. So Mastering social media, mastering email marketing, mastering a funnel, mastering guesting, like whatever that might be, it's required in that process of it. But I think the biggest issue and the one of the ones that you solve with your business and with your show is this idea of being focused about it. Because if you're not focused and you're trying to do everything to anyone and just get any listener on your show, That's a whole lot harder than getting the right listener to your show.

It's the same with business, right? There's a saying we all heard before is riches is in the niches. Like, you have to niche down. That's what we talk about in business. But when it comes to podcasting, I mean, it's the same, right? You really have to niche down. You just have to focus on one topic, which is what the Show Up Show is all about. It's helping people to show up, whether that's marketing, podcasting, branding. It's all about helping you to show up. So the Find Joy Journey is about finding joy, right? In relationship, in spirituality. health. It's about finding joy in all aspects of your life. So I would like to say that I'm doing— I know what I'm doing, but of course I figured it out along the way. It's not like I had it all figured out, which is why I started a second podcast. I tried and tested and it didn't work. I realized, okay, I need a second podcast, right? So again, my main message for, for this podcast is about just get started.

Just get started. I love that advice. Well, find joy with Joy Ann. The Show Up Show. They are available everywhere you listen to podcasts, so you're gonna wanna go check them out, please. And if you'd like to reach Joanne and her businesses and everything like that, there's always the blog post for this episode, so you'll be able to connect directly with her, find out more about what she's doing and what she's bringing to this podcasting world. Joanne Chun, thank you so much for being with me, and thank you for reaching out and connecting with me. I mean, that's how we found each other. You reached out to me and I just love that we connected and we have now done a podcast swap and we're going to continue to promote each other and each other's businesses.

For sure. Yeah. So the other reasons, again, I have one more thing to say, right? The other reasons, because we need many reasons to start a podcast, to keep going, is that I get to talk to people. I get to make friends.

That's right. And I'm very sure we're going to stay friends. So I know it's one of my favorite parts about podcasting too. Well, Thank you so much for being here, and we will talk again soon.

For sure. Yeah. Thank you so much for listening.

I was on her show, as I mentioned, and I loved the idea of having something really personal that you start with. Find Joy, right? That was such a personal show for her because it had her name in it. It was about what she was seeking. It was a really personal mission coming out of the pandemic. She was really looking for that. And in the process of podcasting, like many, many other people and myself included, she found her calling. She found that business model that she wanted to run, the thing that she felt that she was really great at, that added value to her show, but also added value to the service that she can bring to the world. And that's this Rockstar Strategy Model for branding a podcast, right? For putting the podcasting within the brand and you within that podcast. So making both things Tie together. I think it's really interesting to think about this idea of a brand, and I love it when it's a play on words, right? Find Joy. Like, it expresses what she's looking for, but it also has a play on her name. I think that's a fantastic way to incorporate yourself in the brand. But when you make it The Joy Ann Chan Show, or you make it The Tracy Hazzard Show, right? It has less life. And so, that's why I really appreciate when she went in to go do her second show. And it was really about the service and the branding and the business that she was building. She called it the Show Up Show, right? It has its own entity, its own name. It's being driven by what it brings to the world, not who you are in the world, right? So really thinking about what your purpose is, what your strategy is, and how you want that brand to fit into your podcast and how that podcast Fits into your brand. When you bring those 2 together in a strategy, it really makes that clear. It really makes what's my show called, who's it for, what's it about, what's the strategy of it, how it works, and really getting that ideal client focus on it or the ideal listener focus on it.

The—

when you get that right, that strategy in place, then you're really ready to launch. When you don't have it, you need to have the flexibility to be able to change, to be able to grow. And sometimes you start a show that it doesn't have that full-on life that you need it to as your business shifts and changes, and you have to start a second show. It's the reason I have Feed Your Brand and The Binge Factor. It's the reason we have both of those, because the strategy wasn't quite the same. For one versus the other. It's the same audience. There's definitely the same audience, and there's lots of overlap in what we do, but its focus was getting muddied by trying to do too much in one show. Joy found that here. Find Joy, The Show Up Show, they're fantastic shows, but they're very different models focused on a very different segment of her audience. And she understood that really quickly and made that shift and made that new show happen. So you can learn so much from Joanne Chan. Go ahead and listen to me on her show as a difference in understanding like how that model is, how she is as a host, not just as a guest. I love it when I have these pair-ups so you could see the difference between the two. It makes it more fun for everything. So go check out Find Joy: The Show Up Show and check out Joanne Chan everywhere and in the podcasting space. Thanks so much for joining me today here on The Binge Factor. I'll be back next week with another podcaster and another perspective on the podcasting industry. Get ready to binge on our next podcast deconstruction as we uncover the hidden mistakes that can make or break a show. Want your podcast to have that irresistible binge factor too? Go to podcastersunited.org for a trove of free resources and live expert coaching. Don't let your podcasting voice fade out. Renovate your show today before your podcast becomes a money pit and not a moneymaker.