Top Podcast Growth Strategies: How to Vet Guests, Elevate Content Quality, and Leverage Video With Kelly Smith

Warning, this podcast contains brutally honest opinions. If you're easily offended by the truth about your favorite shows, you might want to skip this. If you crave a no-holds-barred journey into what makes a podcast unskippable, then listen in as we, Tracy and Tom Hazzard, put our expertise and relationship to the test here on The Binge Factor. Hey everyone, welcome to Feed Your Brand. I'm Tracy Hazzard and I have a podcaster who's working in the podcast industry, and I always like those because we can talk about industry stuff in addition to giving you some insights into how great it is to be a podcaster, especially one who's a serial podcaster. Kelly Smith is the founder of PodRep Pro, a concierge podcast booking agency that connects guest experts with podcast hosts so they all gain more visibility, more fans, and more sales. She's hosted 5 podcasts since 2012. Currently, Geek Girl Soup and Podcast Launchpad are her current shows, but Geek Girl Soup is one she's had since 2012. She's the author of the number one Amazon bestseller, The Podcast Launch Playbook, and she's helped clients' podcasts rank in the top 5 on Apple Podcasts in their categories in multiple countries. We're not going to talk about that today though, but I'm going to bring her back on and talk about that at a different time. But we don't really talk about podcast rankings because there are a lot of things that I don't love about how the rankings work and a lot of things that I know to be false about those rankings. So while we have someone who ranks in the top 5, the reality is, is that most of your shows are never going to do that. And if they do, it's a false position that doesn't really help you. So I am going to concentrate on all the things that she does do that are absolutely amazing, like having 12 seasons and over 600 episodes of Geek Girl Soup, Podcast Launchpad, having over 100 episodes there, and really being of great service to the podcast guesting, hosting community together. And so that's what we're going to talk about today. So I am excited to bring you Kelly Smith. Kelly, so glad to talk podcasting with you today. And you've been doing this quite some time and have tried a bunch of different shows. And you are still doing your first show. I love that. One of your first shows is Geek Girl Soup. 5 podcasts later, it's still the one you're doing.

Yes, it is. I love it. I got started with Geek Girl Soup in 2012 when podcasting was— it wasn't brand new, but most people had never heard of a podcast at that point.

Well, and this is an interesting show because it's a movie review, and you've got a group of you who are doing it. And so there's a lot of chitchat and conversation going on. Is it a lot of preparation to do this show?

It is some in that we give ourselves homework every week. So we will assign ourselves at least a theme or a specific movie or TV show or a group of movies or TV shows. And we try to do some other reading about the movies or shows or whatever and some other research. But sometimes we just come together and we will just chat about the thing, give our opinions, our reactions to it. So there's definitely some prep. But we aren't going and— like, we don't write scripts for it. It is 3 of us buddies. And we get together and chat and share our opinions and some background stuff.

So how do you keep motivated 600 shows in?

OK, the biggest motivating factor is that we love getting together virtually and just chatting. We are friends. We love movies and TV shows. And it's just fun. We started being religious about doing it weekly during lockdown, COVID lockdown. Before that, it would be several times a month, but we weren't religious about it until March 15th, 2020, beginning of lockdown. And it really saved us during that time. It was like, this is the one thing we're looking forward to every week. So that just became this thing that, OK, every week, every Sunday, we're recording. Here's our homework. This is what we're going to do. And it's just been keeping us going ever since. Before that, 2012 to 2020, it was like, OK, yeah, we're going to do it. It's not necessarily every Sunday. It's not necessarily every week. And we still had hundreds of episodes. But now it's like, oh, absolutely. We have our content calendar filled out through— next year. So like 15 months from now.

It's a good thing you know what movies are coming out, right?

Yes. Yeah, definitely.

Well, I love that. It's so, so rewarding for you personally that you can't stop it. But is it financially rewarding? Is it, has it gotten to the point of monetization for all of you?

No, honestly, no, we have not focused on that. We could, but it is still really a hobby. It is a passion project. We just love doing it. And all 3 of us have other jobs and we focus on 3 other different things. So no, we haven't really put energy into monetizing it.

But it seems that you have been able to monetize podcasting because it has turned into a full-on business for you. You have Podcast Launchpad is one of your other shows that you've done, and you have PodRep Pro, which is your business where you help hosts and guests together get more guesting opportunities on podcasts.

Absolutely. So podcasting is my profession and it is how I make money. And so it feels like to monetize Geek Girl Soup would take time away from my job, my focus. And it's really time that I don't necessarily have to spend. And I want to keep Geek Girl Soup as this, like I said, passion project. And Podcast Launchpad is my business-based podcast, which I love and I'm still passionate about, but it really supports my business and it is to help entrepreneurs start their own podcast and grow their podcast as a marketing tool for their own business. And I just love doing it.

Podcast guesting is one of the best ways to grow your show. I used to ask the question here on The Binge Factor, how do you get great guests? And it was always like, you know, or why do you guest? And they would always say the same thing, like, it's the best way for me to get more It's the best way for me to grow my show. It's the best way for me to build a community. Like, it was always one of those best ways. So I can see it being such an integral part of the launching process, and too few people take advantage of it.

Yes, absolutely. So it's one of the things that I've taught in some courses and I've taught clients that when you wanna grow your show, go be on other podcasts. Absolutely. Because when you're a guest on another podcast, It is essentially like the host is endorsing you. And one of the number one ways, or I think now it is the number way, the number one way that listeners find new podcasts to listen to is through host recommendations, is by listening to other podcasts. And so when you are a guest on another podcast, then people are gonna hear about your show that way and be like, okay, I'm gonna go check that out. As long as you do a good job while being a guest, right?

So.

It is a fabulous way to reach a new audience, to reach a wider audience, and to get your show out there.

Now, what is different between being a podcast guest and a podcast host in your view? Because I know you coach a lot of them on both sides. So like, what do you see as being a big skillset difference?

Well, being a host is a lot harder, right? It takes a lot more time, a lot more planning. It is still an amazing way, like as an entrepreneur, if you have your own podcast, To boost your brand, to boost your reputation, share your expertise, reach a wider audience, right? And you can do those things as a guest too. But as a guest, you aren't running your own show. You aren't spending all those extra hours managing a show and producing a show and all of those extra things that take many additional hours to do that. So the end result of both is similar. I think you're making a much greater impact as a host, especially when you're also adding guesting when you're a host. But you don't spend all those extra hours when you are just a guest, of course, as you know, since you were a host and a guest as well, right?

You know, I think that guesting, though, because it isn't— I'm going to say labor-intensive— that, you know, you show up and you do an interview. And if you've done it right at the beginning, you're doing an interview for something you're already skilled at and is already a good match for you. That's where I think a lot of guests fall apart. I think that they guest and they think, oh, I'll just do this shotgun approach where I'll just send out messages every which way, and it doesn't have the prep work that it should. And that's why you have your business, Pod Rep Pro, because you really do need to be more targeted in your approach.

Oh gosh, yes. I have had— okay, on Podcast Launchpad, I reject More than 90% of the people who reach out to me about being on my show, because the pitches are honestly just so bad. They're either totally the wrong fit for my show. They haven't listened to any episodes. It's just like the spray and pray method. Like you said, they just are reaching out to all of these podcasts and don't do the research or vetting process to make sure that the podcast is an ideal fit For them. And that is such the wrong approach. You, as a guest, you need to make sure that— of a bunch of things, but for one thing, that that podcast has your ideal audience in it. That's just a huge thing. And then the way you reach out to the podcast host is essential. And so there are just some red flags when guests reach out to me that will make me immediately reject the pitch. And often I won't even reply.

We just did an episode in my other show, Feed Your Brand, where we were outing some of the bad emails we got from guests. And it was like, what not to do.

Yes. Yes. Oh, let me tell you the worst. This guy reached out and said, I won't even waste your time telling you that I've listened to your show because I haven't. I'm like, what? Why even tell me that? And he was seriously asking to come on my show. It's crazy.

The ego.

Yes, exactly.

I think that's the real problem is, is that too many guests put their ego first. And as you put it, the host has to do a lot of work. And if they don't, their initiatives, what their purpose is, is not considered in that process. Why should they take you as a guest?

Right. So yes, when you're a guest reaching out to a host, you are helping us out, but you're not entitled to come on our show because we're helping you out as well. It is a mutual thing. We are co-creating value for our listeners, for the listeners of the podcast. That is the number one goal of a podcast host. That's a huge thing I just said there if you're listening. The host's number one priority is to create value for our listeners. So keep that in mind. Keep that top of mind when you're pitching a host to co-create value for their listeners.

I also think that having interviewed a whole lot of podcasters over the years here is that assuming as a guest that that means that your content matters to my audience is a big assumption that you need to actually listen. You need to actually know in order to pitch me properly.

Right. So they have to go back and check out your episodes. I suggest for at least a year, I mean, to scroll back. And look at what episodes you've done for at least the past year. And they shouldn't pitch you on a topic that you've done within this past year because you're not going to duplicate a topic that you've done recently. If it's been more than a year, then you may be open to that. But why would you have someone on to repeat a topic that you just did a couple months ago or even One year ago. Longer than that, again, you may be open to— I'm open to that, certainly. I have also been open to doing a theme. So if someone can argue with me, hey, I see you did this just 6 months ago, but here's my twist on it. So they need to be really attuned to what I've done and explain to me why doing it again makes sense. And it's been really rare that anyone has done that.

Well, let's talk about promotion side of things because that's also where I think that it matters to the host. If you can show them that you do a great job of sharing your show, repurposing the guesting that you're doing, doing those things matter. It makes it an easier choice for me to select you as a guest. What do you train, teach in Podcast Launchpad and to your clients about resharing?

Gosh, that is huge, isn't it? You know, so many guests don't share once their episode comes out. It's like the guests are going onto shows because they want that additional exposure from being on the podcast. And then they're like, oh, well, I don't have to share. They're a little bit selfish about it. I'm getting exposure by being a guest on the episode. Why do I have to share? Okay, you need to share because— continue to think about it selfishly, that's fine. You're saying, look, this host thought enough of me to have me on their show. So go ahead and share that with your audience. You can boast about it a little bit. We hosts are needing you to share because it helps us expand our audience too. So please do share. And when you tell the host upfront, I will share to my email list, to my social media, I will share it on my website, add it to your blog. That really gives us some confidence that you will be a good guest on our show.

That's actually the best pitch I ever got from someone was they showed me, they said, here's an example of how I shared someone else. And it was a great Instagram story. And I was like, okay, I do as well on Instagram. That's definitely a priority for me. That person's accepted on my show. It was an easy, easy choice.

That's wonderful. Yeah, that's excellent. And then we as hosts, what I do as a host Is when I create my social media assets and I create Reels for Instagram, and they can be used doubled as YouTube Shorts, I send those to my guests when the episode is ready to be published. So I make it really easy for them to share. We give them assets for them to share. So if you're a host and you want your guests to share, give them something to share. Otherwise, the best they can do is share the link, and that's not shareable on Instagram, for example. Or they could reshare yours as a story, and that's not as effective as for them to share originally.

Yeah, it makes them do too much work, and they don't always do a good job of it. They don't do the job you would want, so you might as well do it for them.

Exactly. And you could even write a suggested blurb for them. I know that's extra work on your part, but as a host, but you're writing blurbs for yourself anyway. So send them the suggested blurb and they can rewrite it themselves. But if you've already done the work for them, again, much easier for them to share.

Absolutely. Well, I'm so glad you're out there advising people. What are some of the things that you end up repeating yourself again and again and again about either on Podcast Launchpad or with your clients?

Right. Oh gosh, the biggest things are those around guesting, pitching hosts, hosts pitching guests as well, that We need to boost the host's ego and the guest's ego when we reach out to them. Like, tell them what you like about them, what you appreciate about their work. Don't go on and on, but a little bit. So often when we're pitching either a guest or a host, we make it all about ourselves. So as a guest, we go on and on about, I'm this, that, and the other. Here are my credentials. Here's everything I've accomplished.

Mm-hmm.

And what the host wants to hear is, what is your number one suggested topic? Why is it going to be relevant for their audience? And what value are you going to provide for their audience? You know, how's it going to fit into their podcast? And if you're pitching a guest, similar thing. Propose what topic you want them to talk about. How is it going to help that guest, how is it going to fit in, or how is your audience going to help them with their ideal client, their ideal audience? How is being on your show going to benefit them? So it's all about this mutuality and benefiting the other person, not about me, me, me, but about them, them, them.

And I think it also is just the way that you were saying that, what it really brings to the forefront is the idea that hosts are out there putting out a show because they want to be seen, heard, and found. Guests are going out there because they want to be seen, heard, and found. But you can't put them in conflict with each other. They need to co-create, as you put it before, or it's not going to work for anyone.

Exactly, yes. And again, going back to creating that value for the listeners. So working together, always keeping the listener in mind, And like you just said, they can't work against each other, the hosts and the guests. They all want the same thing. How did you phrase it? They want to be seen, heard, and found. Exactly right. And that can happen together. They can both be seen, heard, and found while creating that value for the listeners so that all 3 benefit. It's such a beautiful process. And this is something that I just adore about podcasts is everyone can benefit. The listeners get so much value from the podcast. The host can get seen, heard, and found. The guest can be seen, heard, and found, and everyone has fun.

Well, I am gonna do something I've never done on my show before. And for those of you longtime Binge Factor binge listeners, I have never done a double show Binge Factor. So I'm gonna talk about Podcast Launchpad first here, but Kelly has really done in Podcast Launchpad a Deep dive, really nitty-gritty subject matter focus. And it's those topics that we're so powerfully drawn to because we need an answer. And that's what's gonna draw you into our community is when it's gonna draw you into our show. And it's definitely what's gonna make you binge on Podcast Launchpad. That is my question for you, Kelly, because how do you find those great topics? How do you do that? How do you get into those nitty-gritty details for people?

When I create Podcast Launchpad, each of the episodes, and that too, I have my content calendar that is out through the end of 2024 and I change 'em up. You know, I have other ideas. I put myself in the place of a beginning podcaster or come up with questions for myself right now. And I just ask myself these questions and I listen to my clients and I listen to other podcasters out there. And so each episode is based on a question. And I've done that when I've written books and when I come up with blog posts. But it's all based on what questions do new podcasters or more experienced podcasters have. And that's it. I just like thinking in terms of questions.

I love that. So you're already thinking about how can I be in service because you're doing that question and answer model as well. Oh, great. That's so wonderful. And I'm glad to hear you're already booking out because I don't want you to stop your show if I'm going to binge listen on it, right?

Yep.

I definitely want to know you're going Yes, I will for years. Yeah, well, the binge factor on Geek Girl Soup— and I'm going to say a review show or a show that's in conversation about stuff that's going on— can be very difficult to have a binge factor, to become bingeable, because it can outdate really quickly.

Yes, it can.

But here's the thing. The types of shows and movies you're choosing— again, your content choices are smart. Because they're ones that I'm going to come back on. I might not find out about a particular movie until years after it launched. And you still go back and talk about them. You still go back and review them. So the fact that our world is so streaming-oriented, which is all mixed up, and it doesn't matter when it originally aired and came out into theaters, has helped you. But it's also the approach that you're taking. You're not talking about too much information that's set in time. It's talking about how you felt about it, what it made you think about, how it made you react. And that's timeless.

Thank you. Yeah, we don't just talk about current movies and shows. We'll also go back and pull out things that came out decades ago. So that's something that keeps it really fun for us. It can be sentimental, nostalgic, and very current as well.

And I think you got your geek girl edge, which is really nice. I try— it was a big catalog. So go back a year, listen to a few, and come back into it. But you did a Back to the Future, which is just— it's on its anniversary anyway. So it was in the news about that. But that's got that geek girl edge to it. And you don't lose that throughout the show. And I think that that's really important. It's too easy to end up trendy in some of those shows. And you're like, yeah, we're still a little bit liking the sci-fi. We still like those little time travel stories. We like those.

Yeah, definitely. That was a fun one. We can talk about Back to the Future forever.

Because you've probably seen it many, many times.

Oh, gosh. Yes. Yes. That we have.

Well, it wouldn't be an episode talking about a podcasting industry in general if we weren't talking about the future. So let's go to the future, not back to the future. Let's go to the real future. And what's next? What do you see is going on in podcasting? Or what do you see as something you really want to tap into and do for yourself?

Well, video, of course. You know, most podcasters— I don't know if it is most, actually. I think about half. Yeah, half of podcasters are doing video now, and a little bit more than half of listeners are wanting video for their podcasts now. And in fact, they say that they understand the episodes better when they can watch video at the same time. So I anticipate more podcasters to be doing video. And one thing that's wonderful about that, as you know, is that When you have your camera on, then it's easy to pull video clips out to share on social media. And people love video clips more than just a single static image to share on social media. So that makes that really easy. Even if you end up not sharing the whole episode on YouTube, just to have it for those clips is really nice.

Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna step in there and say, hey, all of you binge listeners, you also have Feed Your Brand. And I've referred to this episode before, but we taught you all how to convert your podcast in YouTube. To a YouTube podcast playlist. And do not underestimate that, but they require it to be your full-length episode, not your shorts. So if you're going to take advantage of that, make sure you do that. But we're seeing, because we've been doing video a lot longer than most people, not just us personally, but on our platform on Podotize. So we've been doing that. And so we're probably at close to about 65% of our client base and our user base doing video as well. And so it has, and I think just year over year grew from 50 to 65%. So that 15% boost in that is significant. And so I agree with you. I think that that's definitely the way to go. But what we are not seeing is playthrough on the video. There's not the same attention span on video that there is in the podcast listening space. It does not work like that.

And that makes sense because people just spend seconds scanning a blog or online articles. They fast forward through videos or just stop, you know, because they're sitting here looking at a screen. And they lose attention. You know, they'll open their email or a text or whatever. But with just the pure audio of a podcast, 80% of listeners will finish the entire episode once they hit play. It's amazing because yes, they can multitask, but they can keep listening while they're driving. Listening on the commute is still the number one way that people listen to a podcast.

Well, we have a few, many, many podcasts that we see, especially the ones towards more affluent users. That listeners in general, that they're, it's the watch is growing in their percentage of listens. Tablet is way down. Computer is way down, but phone and watch is high. And the ones that have high watch have high listen-through rates.

That's awesome. Yeah. On the computer or watching by video, YouTube gets found pretty well since Google owns YouTube. But yeah, the listen-through rate, like you're saying, it's too easy to be distracted.

So, yeah, so you gotta do both, right?

Yes.

Please do both.

Yeah.

Don't just give up podcasting for video. That's the one thing that I think is really a big mistake. And we've seen people who did that and then came back.

I'll bet. Yeah. And then you're right, definitely set it up as a podcast for the long ones only on YouTube. But yeah, do not give up the audio. People want the audio.

So what's new for your business? What's the future for PodRep Pro and Podcast Launchpad?

Keeping Podcast Launchpad going for sure. It is only a year old, but I've got, as of this recording, 112 episodes. And yeah, it's gonna keep going. There's just so much to talk about with podcasting. So it's fabulous. And PodRep Pro is actually new. I was doing podcast consulting And there's just so— there's so much free information out there, including my podcast, on starting a podcast and growing your podcast and all of that. And I really found a need for helping people get booked on podcasts and helping hosts book guests. There are fabulous matchmaking services to do that, but it still requires extra effort to do the pitch. And there are people who really do want a concierge service with that so that all you do essentially is show up for the interview. And so that's what we do at Pod Prep Pro is we take care of everything and you just show up for the interview.

And so important if you need help with all the prep side of things, you're a very busy CEO, you've got a lot going on, you can't do all of that, but you wanna know somebody actually did that and didn't just do the spray and pray method as you put it before, please. I've seen people hire companies that think that they're doing a service and that's all that they do. And it's not helpful.

No, I still have agencies reach out to me trying to pitch guests to me and they've used spray and pray. They're pitching guests who are not at all a good fit or nowhere near.

Yeah. I used a concierge service way back. I mean, way, way, way back, probably when you were starting your first podcast, probably around 2012, something like that. I think it was quite that long ago, maybe 2012, 2013, sometime around there. And 12 guest spots that I did did $120,000 in business within 6 months. And $1 million, if I calculated it, was referral and other sales that came from that a year later. So because it was so targeted, because it was so professional, it made a huge difference.

Yeah, absolutely. When you are very precisely targeted, you get on ideal-for-you podcasts or as a host, you know, you get ideal for you guests on there, then it can work really, really well. Absolutely.

Well, Kelly Smith, thank you so much for bringing Geek Girl Soup and Podcast Launchpad to the world. We appreciate you in the podcast industry.

Oh, thank you so much, Tracy. It was wonderful to be on your show. I really appreciate everything you do, and it was just lovely to be here today.

I love when someone has found such success in podcasting that they have decided to turn that into a business. And then when that business is taking off and doing so well and really helping others, I really love to get their opinion. I get their view on how it is. 'Cause I started podcasting and started our podcasting business so long ago. It seems like so long ago. It was over 6 years ago, so it seems like So much has changed. It's one of the reasons I start a new podcast every year because I need to make sure that it's keeping up with how things are moving. And the things that Kelly are seeing right now are exactly what's really going on in the industry. There's a lot of shotgun approach thanks to AI, thanks to VAs and virtual assistants and all that process that makes it really accessible and easy for you to just phone it in. But the reality is that having A human touch, having that one-on-one, putting a concierge in place, making sure that you're really doing the prep work on your own show for you, deciding on a movie for Geek Girl Soup that is going to make sense or a TV show that makes sense to their group when they talk about it, it means that they can stay engaged. They can stay passionate about it. It's a much more sustainable approach to podcasting. So that's why I brought Kelly on today. I really liked it when she said that you can look at checking the past episodes in the past year not to do any duplicates. I actually don't know if I totally agree with that. I agree that you shouldn't like, I mean, look, if every show was about SEO, the last thing you wanna do is pitch them an SEO expert. There's probably people that way outrank you on there. However, if you've got something really new and a great new angle and it's a popular subject, popular enough for me to repeat it, then you should come on my show. By that theory, I wouldn't have anyone but Alex Sanfilippo on this show because why would I have anyone but PodMatch when he's been doing it so long and he's such an expert in guesting and all of those things, why would I have Kelly Smith on the show? So it's okay for there to be people in the past who have done this, as long as you really truly bring something new and/or bring higher authority, one of those things. And I do think if you are going to think about theming and grouping together contents of pieces of information, like let's say I wanted to go on shows and really talk about all the amazing things we're doing to support video podcasting. And that's what I wanted to do. And I wanted to do that as the CEO of Poditise. What if I brought on and brought with me 2 other guests or 3 other guests, and we could do a whole— recommend a whole themed month on YouTube podcasts? And I could bring in Fran Assaro, my favorite senior tuber. She's amazing. She's absolutely— Thrive Anyway. She's amazing. And she's the only person I bring in to give advice to my clients. So why not bring her along with me and pitch both of us? To a host at the same time. There's power in that. Those are some great things that can come when you have concierge service, when you have someone who's actually doing the pitching. You can be creative and think of things like this to really get you in and do something original that hasn't been done. And that's a much more co-creation and collaborative approach. And that's what Kelly's saying. She's saying, when you think about that show, when you think about that host and that guest and them co-creating together, you're gonna come up with better solutions, better ideas, better ways to pitch. And that's not gonna come when you spray and pray and you just send out anything to anyone anywhere. Not gonna work. So I'm so glad we could have Kelly on. So glad you got a sense of Geek Girl Soup and Podcast Launchpad, thinking about how you're going to grow your show. And remember, one of the number one ways to do that is through podcast guesting, whether it's bringing great guests who have— bring authority value to your show and share value to your show, or Going on another show and guesting there. And remember, I always love a podcast swap. It's how Kelly and I met. I offered to have her on my show. She hopefully will offer to have me on her show, right? Like that kind of thing goes on. And when we have a show and we offer someone to come on our show, it's more likely we're gonna get guest spots. I think I probably guest at least 4 times a month, one for every guest that I have here. So that's a successful strategy and one great reason for you not to just guest on other people's podcasts. But also have a show yourself. So thanks everyone for listening. I'm so glad I could bring you another bingeable podcaster, and I will be back next week with yet another one.

Get ready to binge on our next podcast deconstruction as we uncover the hidden mistakes that can make or break a show. Want your podcast to have that irresistible binge factor too? Go to podcasters united.org for a treasure trove of free resources and live expert coaching. Don't let your podcasting voice fade out. Renovate your show today before your podcast becomes a money pit and not a moneymaker.