Podcast Guesting Alchemy: How to Pitch Hosts, Build Authority, and Drive Long-Term ROI From Mark Herschberg

Warning, this podcast contains brutally honest opinions. If you're easily offended by the truth about your favorite shows, you might want to skip this. If you crave a no-holds-barred journey into what makes a podcast unskippable, then listen in as we, Tracy and Tom Hazzard, put our expertise and relationship to the test here on The Binge Factor.

I'm really excited to have Mark Kirschberg back. I think this is his 3rd time on the show, if I'm not mistaken. He was one of— I think it was like my 99th episode or something like that, and I was his 99th interview. Anyway, he is a serial guester. He has guested on more shows than anyone I know, and he has such great insights into when it works, when it doesn't work, how to make it work. all of these things. And he started a new article series called Podcast Alchemy, and I can't wait to talk with him more about that and get into that. But first, just in case you didn't hear about Mark the first time, I want to make sure I give you a little bit of background on him. He's the creator of Brain Bump, which is a really cool app, and I'm sure we're going to talk some about it in the episode there. In fact, I know we will. And he's also the author of The Career Toolkit: Essential Skills for Success That No One taught you. That is what brought him on my show. That is what got him into podcasting as a guest, and a serial guest at that, and got him up to 99 interviews that he had done by the time I met him. He has spent his career launching and developing new ventures at startups and Fortune 500s and academia, and he's helped to start MIT's Career Success Accelerator, where he's taught for over 20 years. So he's a great teacher, a great sharer, and in promoting his book and his app, he's now appeared on hundreds of podcasts, including over 200 appearances in a single year covering topics from career to AI to cufflinks. So it's a little bit of everything. And I always enjoy my conversation with Mark, and we always get to catch up and have these fantastic synergies over our thoughts about what's working, what's not working in podcast guesting, and what's working and not working in podcasting in general, and what's working and not working in tech. So I know you're going to really enjoy the insights that are here. Normally On this show, we are promoting a podcaster. Mark is not a podcaster, but he has this great article series that I thought would be very useful to podcasters, and that's why he's on my show today. So let's hear from Mark Hershberg, founder of Brain Bump. Mark, you're back here again, and I'm so, you know, and it's actually, it's been a while in between each one of our times, and we spend half the call catching up with each other, and I'm so glad we do that. It's really worth it to me.

Well, I am excited to be here for my three-peat.

That's right.

This is a first for me, and I think for you as well.

Yeah, I don't normally have people back that often, maybe once or twice, you know, it happens on occasion, but three-peat, there's something special going on. And really what caught my eye was your series on Podcast Alchemy. I just love what you're doing here because it is so concentrated in terms of advice. on that podcast host-guest kind of blend. And it is the alchemy between the two that really matters.

It is indeed. And there's lots of great content out there on things like how to get your lighting right and how to promote your podcast and get the right mic. And those are all important, but it's getting, as you said, that chemistry between the guest and the host and just getting everything to line up that makes such a great podcast.

You know, it is my number one pet peeve for all things guesting when people run a shotgun approach, when they just hire a company or an assistant or a bot and say, pepper everyone in the finance category of podcast hosts, and you get all kinds of randomness. I think it needs to be targeted. It needs to be special.

Semi-agree. Now there's an asterisk there.

I know, after 300+ guest spots, I think you might disagree.

So I'm a little on the volume side. I had long conversation with Dave Jackson of School of Podcasting about this because he, he said, no, no, you gotta be targeted. You do have to take something of a shotgun approach. You have to go wide because you're going to get rejected. I think my hit rate now is probably somewhere around 20%. 1 in 5 will be successful. When I first started, as I was figuring it out, it was much lower. But that doesn't just mean spam everyone. And so I've got my core message and I will take a few minutes. I'll look and say, first, do I think I can add value to this audience? Is it a fit? Not just what you had, this one word. And so then I will take my pitch. I might do a small tweak or two, but I'm not writing a custom one each time. In fact, when I first started, I would sit there and go, hi Tracy, I looked through your prior episodes and I saw episodes like ABC, and I'll call out the episodes and I've listened to a couple minutes of each. And then I'll go in and try to do— and here's specifically what I think I can do for you. I'm spending a lot of time, little ROI. When I move to a good generic but good clear pitch, I actually have 2 or 3 pitches depending on what angle I'm going with. And then I might change a line or 2 again in a fairly standard way that is relevant to you and your audience, but that lets me do it at volume.

But you're still checking out the shows. You're just not buying a list and then dropping them all in. So that's the approach that I have. Like, yeah, I can't tell you how many hosts who don't even take guests get emailed. Right.

Yeah. That's a pet peeve of mine. I will tell you with probably about 2,000 pitches, I think twice I did that. Once I was referred in by someone. And so I just kind of assumed, and I didn't pay close enough attention. But yes, look, not only do they take guests, there are, for example, lots of podcasts about women in business. Wonderful podcasts. I think I've got great things to say, but I might not qualify because I am not a woman in business. So pay attention to who they're looking for as a guest.

Yeah. So I think there's a model of things you're gonna talk about in the Alchemy series about host or guest, and I'm a fan of Host plus guests for hosts, and I recommend this heavily. But, you know, I'm interested to hear what your thoughts are on it.

They do different things. And now, very early on, people would ask me, Mark, you're going on all these podcasts, why don't you have a podcast of your own? I sat there and thought about— now, thankfully, I have a business background. I've been doing lots of tech startups most of my career. I started to think, well, what am I going to get out of this. And here's the key thing: guesting and hosting do different things. When you are guesting, that is very broad. That's more like PR. I'm over here, I'm over here, here's my message, new audience. You're just kind of doing the quick hits, getting the word out. You are not going to sell a high-end product or service. Now, I am very explicitly not a coach. My book, what got me on this— let's give folks a little context. I wrote a book called The Career Toolkit: Essential Skills for Success That No One Taught You, based on a class I've been teaching at MIT for 20 years. My day job, I'm a CTO. That's what I do for money. The book I just put out for fun. Most people with a book like that would be an executive coach. I am not. And they would sell coaching services, let's say for $10,000. You can't go on a podcast and say, hi, I'm Mark. I've got great advice. Now pay me $10,000. No one does that on a dime. No one does that after hearing you once. But I could get them to maybe buy the book. People will buy the book after hearing you, sign up for your email list. You can get those low-cost things. But if you're a host, that's where you build the trust. And if I had a podcast week after week, they'll hear me or they'll hear great guests I'd bring on, someone like you and other people we know and keep saying, wow, Mark's podcast keeps adding value to my life. And when it comes time that they say, I do want to invest in that product or service, who do I trust? That person I've been listening to every week. Now they can work together, as you note, because you can do that first one to get people to your show, and then you can build that brand trust.

You know, I think that is such a good perspective on that, Mark, because, you know, it really is I've always said that this is the easiest long-tail sales I've ever done. And I used to do contracts for $120,000 minimum, but I could close them faster because I had a podcast. So the bigger programs, you should be a host, but that doesn't mean that hosts shouldn't be out there no matter how, what their show's about out there, getting some more listeners, getting some more expansion, bringing more people into their community. And you're right, that's a perfect guesting opportunity for something that's a little bit more get to know me, come in, buy my book, buy my small course, join my membership community, follow me on LinkedIn and start to learn more about me. That's a great entry point and podcasters need that too. So they're missing out by not doing both.

And now here's the pixie dust. Here's where the alchemy says 1 1 3. One of the best things I know, you know this. It's just the people you're going to meet. You mentioned that we were catching up before the show, and I have built so many great relationships with people like yourself and other people in our field who are probably— because you're going on hopefully relevant shows and not shotgunning a list, you're meeting people who are in your field or in an adjacent field, and you're building that relationship. And this is really critical. I'm always shocked when I meet a podcaster who just says, Okay, thanks for being on the show. Click, done, and the Zoom ends. You have a conversation afterwards and you build that relationship. The reason that I'm on a 3rd time is because we didn't just say, well, thanks for having me on, Tracy, I'm done. We got to know each other, we built that relationship, and that is where there's so much value.

Absolutely. Yeah, I'm so glad we're catching back up. But you know, here's some things— you have guested on so many shows that you have a list of the best and the worst Host characteristics. I don't know, the things that really bug you about them. So we're going to talk about the best ones though, because we want them to concentrate and model on these best ones. If you occasionally mention a couple of the worst ones, that's okay too. But we really want— let's focus on some of the best hosting experiences you've had.

A few good things. Give me some information ahead of time. Tell me about your audience. Now, yes, you might be the parenting podcast, Okay, great. I know it's not about surfing, but I don't know, is it parents of younger people, older people? Are you having more single parents? What type of parents? You might not know, and that's okay. But if you have an archetype, knowing that it's more parents of toddlers versus parents of teens, that might change the message I'm going to give or the anecdotes I provide. So give me that context.

And giving it ahead of time is so smart, Mark, because then you have time to think of which stories, which case studies do I want to talk about? Or, you know, it gives you a chance to prep.

Speaking of prep, tell me, is it audio or video?

Oh yes.

Obvious. But so many people— and I might have just seen you on Apple Podcasts, I don't know you have a YouTube channel— do I need to set up lighting? And many female guests Hair and makeup, and that takes time and they need to know. I did get tricked once where they said, no, we're audio only. I thought, okay, I wear a t-shirt for audio only. This is for those watching the video. I wear French cuff shirts. It's part of my brand. I'm very dressed up. You'll see it in my videos. But if it's audio, I'm just gonna wear a t-shirt. But what she did is she took a screenshot and put it out there, and I didn't know she was doing that. So it was off brand for me.

Yep. It's important to let people know how you're gonna do it. What are some of those things that, those pet peeves of yours?

The way people read bios. And so I have pulled up a bio for this podcast. I have it right here, and I'm going to read your bio and I'm gonna show you the 2 ways I see bios done. So the first, this is how it should be read. Now, I have not done a lot of doing this over and over. I'm reading this relatively cold. Tracy Hazard is a seasoned media expert with over 2,600 interviews from articles in Authority Magazine, BuzzFeed, and her Inc. magazine column, and from her multiple top-ranked videocasts and podcasts like The Binge Factor, The Next Little Thing, and Feed Your Brand, one of CIO's top 26 entrepreneur podcasts. Now I'm going to read the second paragraph how I hear so many people do it. Tracy brings diverse views From what works and what doesn't work in marketing, branding, and media from thought leaders and industry icons refining success around the globe. I'll stop there because it'll just get painful. Thanks.

Yeah.

And people just don't do basic scanning or look through it once or twice and read it as if you know what it is and not that each word is a big surprise.

Yeah.

It sounds so much more professional.

Oh, it does sound so much more professional. And I like to do mine after, which not everybody does, cuz sometimes you're doing it live and you're, or you're gonna, you know, do it in one single recording. And I totally understand that, but I like to do it after because there'll be something you'll mention on here and I'll be like, oh, I wish I highlighted that when I said it so that I emphasized it. Cuz then it would make sense later and I'd make sure people heard that piece of it. So that's why I like to do it after, and it is just for that purpose of I really do scan it and I wanna make sure that the important parts come across. And sometimes you have to cut people's bios. They're too long.

Another one is the call to action. Now, many hosts, they mean well and they say, well, Mark, thanks for being on. We've got Mark's website in the show notes, so go check it out. Okay, thank you. I appreciate that. But remember that so many people listen to podcasts. when they're driving, when they're at the gym, when they're running, they're not going to look at the show notes because as soon as they're out of the car, done with the gym, they're somewhere else. And so just saying, go to Mark's website at— whether you say it or I say it, but even if it's in the show notes, just giving that audio will catch the people who may not look at the show notes. I know we'd like to think everyone carefully reads the show notes, but they don't always. Even if they do, the repetition of that brand, of that website, once audio, later in the show notes, it's just helpful and only takes another 15 seconds or so. So please make sure what's in the show notes, whatever that call to action is, it's in the audio as well.

So I'm going to disagree with you slightly here because we teach our clients not to do that, not to allow callouts for websites or anything like that. We teach them to send them to one place for it. And usually it's their blog, their home site, their podcast site, whatever that is. So in my case, it's thebingefactor.com. And so I send everybody there because I want the repetition of where to find the information that's with my audience, because supposedly they're binge listeners. So they're coming back again and again, and that's the one thing they have to remember. So that's, I'm the resource for that. So that's why we do it that way. But I do agree with you. A lot of times they aren't making it clear what the call to action is. In other words, like. Like, if you'd like to find out more information about Mark's company and his book, The Career Toolkit, you need to go to the blog post for this episode. So they're not making it really clear about the compelling reason to go there, and that's the call to action missing. They're like, just find out more. Like, it's too casual. It's not a, a real reason to go find it. And so that's the distinction that I like to make. But the other thing is that I do think it is much more effective if the host delivers your call to action than if you deliver it.

I agree with that because the host is validating you. Of course I'm going to talk myself up. But when you say it and you're the name they trust— now, by the way, if you're a guest, be sure to do the same. Be sure to say, hey, for those of you who are hosts, Tracy has a wonderful service, and if you haven't checked it out, you should. I do believe that, and I'm sure you've said it. I go, yeah, well, of course she's gonna say it. But now I'm saying it. So both parties can basically really get— sell is not quite the right word, but really validate the other person, add that extra social proof more than you can when you're each tooting your own horns.

You know, and I think that ties into one of the other things we wanted to talk about here, which was like, there are different models. And if you start to understand that I have a show that has a particular model that works, you've now seen the pattern of them by being interviewed by so many. You see that there's this pattern of it. Very many of them are running on a very particular model, which is I'm making money off of the sale of my high-ticket coaching business. And so that is my model. And so I need to continually remind people without being too salesy, that's why I'm here as a host, right? So if you understand that, you can support that. And if your model is some other different model, so what are some of the models you've seen that think— what I wanna particularly hear are the ones that benefit guests. The most?

There's a few different models. The most obvious is the host, of course, is selling the host's products or services. That's very clear. Another very obvious is selling advertising, and we'll use that generally whether you're running ads or you have sponsorship. You're monetizing the audience in an indirect way. Now, we do see some hosts will charge guests And that's— we can go down that rabbit hole.

I'm cringing on the other end for those who can't see me. Like, I hate that one.

I am not a fan of that. I always say, when you go and watch The Daily Show, when you watch these late-night talk shows, and we know people go out and they promote their movies or whatever they're doing, well, guess what? Those of us who aren't movie stars, we're promoting stuff too. And we're happier to provide you content. But I am sure those movie stars are not paying The Late Show To go on it to say, please put me on. Because the late shift's saying, hey, getting you on helps us. It's good content, right?

We make good advertising dollars when you show up and you're a good guest.

If you are charging people, it's the low-quality people who don't know much marketing and say, oh, I guess I have to pay to be on it. Whereas the people you really want, the super successful people, the CEOs and business owners and top-selling authors and thought leaders, They're not going to be paying for it, but they're the ones with the most value. So it's a win-win when you elevate the standards. Now, there's another model that most people don't know, and that is selling to the guest. In my prior life, I was CTO at multiple lead generation companies. And so here's how this model works. Let's suppose I have a company that does database optimization, and that's what my service is. Who am I selling that to? Well, I'm going to look for someone who might be CIO, a VP of information at maybe a mid-sized company. Big companies, they've got all in-house. Tiny companies, they don't have the problems. Say a company maybe has 500 to 2,000 people in the US and they have some level of IT in-house. So they've got a VP. Okay. Well, who would purchase this service? It would be the VP, a director, a CIO. So that's who I want to meet. And then what I do is I reach out and I get that person, my target customer, onto my podcast. Now it's very sneaky because I say, Tracy, I would love to have you come onto my show and talk about the great work that you're doing. I'm flattering you. I'm telling you, I think you're awesome. I don't care what you say. I don't care if my guests care what you say. In fact, I might have an audience of 10. It doesn't matter to me because what really matters is you and I have a conversation and we're going to have multiple conversations. One signal for this is you get put in a lead funnel. You'll start getting this series of drip emails, right? Hey, I'm going to send you a couple emails the next few days telling you how to be a great guest. They'll often have little videos because you see a little video of me, the 1-minute video. Make sure you're not backlit. Make sure you're using headphones. Just a couple little tips each time. Then we meet up, then we do the podcast, we talk about things afterwards, then we've got the follow-up emails, and I do a follow-up meeting. So at this point, you and I have been interacting so many times that my hope is 6 months from now when you say, hey, our databases are slow, go, how about Mark? I know this guy, I like this guy, I trust this guy. And the whole thing was just selling to you by dangling something that probably You know, this false concept of being in front of my audience when my audience might not even really exist.

You know, and I've found I have clients who do that. I have clients who build them and we help them orchestrate them and we help them understand what that model should look like for them. But I find it works anyway, that if you are really truly serving your community and serving your listener base, the guests that you choose are going to become people who want to do business with you. And it will happen naturally without you having to force it through the funnel. And that funneling process at the end of the day can actually leave a distaste in their mouth for wanting to work with you when it would've been the opposite otherwise. So that's why I'm not a fan of it. And anyone who knows, look, I've had people, I can tell you for a fact that I probably closed about 50% of the guests that come on my show to come and bring their show to Poditise. But that doesn't mean that that's its purpose. And it's certainly not something that happens. It just happens naturally cuz they have such a good time on the show. And then they see what we do when we promote their show on the other side of it. And they're like, what did you do? And can I have an audit and can get my show appraised? And can I, they ask for it. And so it happens naturally without trying. And so that's, I'm a bigger fan of that than doing it and that being the primary reason for doing it. But the other key is if you get spammed out in LinkedIn and because I hear you have 500 employees and I'm sure that's a problem, so we'd love to have you come talk about it. How many of those do you get? And then the other issue is if there's too many pre-calls, no podcast host who's really worth their salt for just in, just in general has the time for the extra calls.

Exactly.

It's their job to do sales calls or they wouldn't be taking the extra time for it.

This goes back to that alchemy, that relationship building. I always harp on guests, don't go in trying to sell during the episode. The episode is about adding value to the audience. And if you create value, they'll start to say, what else might you have? And they'll look at your products and services. And the same thing is true if the host isn't saying, how do I sell in, whether to the audience or the guest, but just says, how do I create value? And going back to when the guest is your customer or a potential customer, just how do I make sure this is a good experience for your guest? And if you do that and you build the relationship, what happens is what you said, is that you convert so many people, not because you went out saying, how do I just get them in my lead funnel, but how do I create value for them? And they say, wow, how can you create more value for me? Let's talk.

Absolutely. Yeah, that mutual creation of value is so critically important in the scope of things. You know, I was so glad that you were very straightforward in your first installment in your Alchemy series about You know, podcast guesting's not gonna sell thousands of books and maybe, you know, it's not gonna be a windfall. In fact, you even talk about the fact that it's not gonna be a windfall even if you were going on the Today Show. So it's not always a guarantee of that. But what were some ways, some things that you did that you felt moved the needle the most to keep you going? I mean, 300 interviews to do is a lot, and I don't even know how many more you've done since then, but the last time I checked, you were at 300. It's so— You know, it's what makes it worth it. What kinds of things did you do in repurposing, or what kind of alchemy created the most value for you as a guest, for you as an author?

I do know that I'm unique because again, my whole purpose in podcasting is really helping others. I don't really have much to sell. Yes, there is a book and you can buy the book, but no author ever gets rich from selling books. It's selling the other stuff, which I do not sell. And so my passion has been really helping other people. In fact, a lot of my volunteer work has kind of been in these veins as well, helping people with their professional efficacy. So I got just ROI knowing I was out there helping people. I got a great return as we talked about building relationships like the one I'm fortunate to have with you. But then you do get what I call lottery tickets. Now I have gotten some talks. I do professional speaking and generally I wouldn't recommend podcasting as a way to find your clients, but it can raise your visibility. And if you have multiple services, it gets 'em down the path that may ultimately lead to the high-value talk. But once in a while I did have someone say, hey, I'd really like to talk to you about coming into our organization. Don't count on that because the people who hire are few and far between, hire speakers for events. Few and far between, and I don't think it's the best ROI, but occasionally that happens. Partnerships may come out of it. I've certainly helped, not for myself, because I don't have a lot of revenue and things because I give stuff away, but I've helped other people through introductions and created partnerships and opportunities for others. So I could have done that for myself. I will say with the Brain Bump app, that was a tool. It's a free tool. Another thing I give away. I had done it for books, but as I was talking to podcast hosts, someone said, well, can you do it for Well, why not? And so it expanded my product line. And I suppose if I was actually selling it, I would now be selling to a bigger market instead of just giving it away for free to a bigger market.

Well, tell everybody a little bit about what Brain Bump is because it's fun. And, you know, as a person who reads a lot of books and I've recorded a lot of podcasts, but I think I've read at least 3 times that in books over my lifetime. So I'm a bigger reader. I can't possibly remember where I got the quote from because I read so frequently, and the Brain Bump is a great repository. But tell 'em how it works.

That's one of my prompts. I think I read this thing. I kind of said this somewhere, but I can't remember. And realistically, you forget most of what you read in a book 2 weeks later. When you listen to a podcast episode, you probably forgot 90% of the episode a day later, and by next week it is a distant memory. Well, this isn't good for either party. The audience, the reader or the listener says, I just invested all this time. I want to remember and retain and use this. And the brand, in this case, the host, the author says, well, A, I care about you learning. That's why I do this. But also, if you can't remember the value I create, you're not going to think highly of my brand and come back to me. So it turns out there's a solution for both sides. The Brain Bump app, it's a free app on Android and iPhone. We take the key ideas from books, podcasts, blogs, talks, classes, different sources. We put those highlights into the app. So think tip cards. Here's what you'd highlight in a book. Here's that audio clip. It's all text right now, but here's that kind of 2, 3 sentence takeaway. It goes into the app. It comes with the branding, comes with the source. And it's hyperlinked to the source, and it's all organized by topic. So the app helps people in one of two ways. In my book, for example, I have networking tips. Where do you read it? Sitting at home. Where do you need it? 2 months later as you're at a networking event. So as you're walking to that event and saying, I can't remember what I read, you pull up the app, you tap networking as the topic, and there's all the tips from the book you read, the podcast you heard, right there in front of you. You flip through it. You might even say, maybe you're on your way to the event, say, okay, that's a good tip from this episode, but I think I get— if I want to go further, you click the link and it's going to take you right to that episode or the blog post so you can read it. And this is great for podcasters because your evergreen content— that episode might have been from 2 days ago or 2 years ago. It's not organized by time but topic. So you're gonna drive traffic to your evergreen content, or the app user can use it to get a daily reminder. Think like a daily affirmation, but from content that she or he wants from your podcast or other brand. And the whole time it's branded, so they keep seeing your brand over and over, and it builds that brand trust.

Yeah, I love the concept of it because it is so hard to, I mean, look, I personally cannot even remember all the episodes that I'll be like, Somebody said this, which guest was it? Right? Like, it's not as easy for us hosts to do it as well. So this is a great repository, even if you're only using it within for your personal use, but I highly recommend you use it as a share tool as well. So it's great. You should go check it out. We'll make sure that all the links to it, um, so you could check out Brain Bump app will be in the blog post for this episode at thebingefactor.com. Actually. I shouldn't say that anymore. It's not at thebingefactor.com, it's at podcastersunited.org. And you'll be able to find Mark there as well because we're gonna feature his entire Alchemy series as well within our newsletter that runs in Podcasters United. So Mark, I'm so glad you have kept up your podcasting. It wasn't just like a one-shot, you launched your book and then it was over. I'm glad you stayed and kept dabbling and keep going in the podcasting arena. Because you have so much value to share.

Well, thank you. And the lesson for authors, for podcast guests and podcast hosts, it's a marathon, not a sprint. You can't just— I went on— I know authors go on 20 podcasts and think, okay, check done. And just like as a host, you can't say 20 episodes, why don't I have 10,000 downloads per episode yet? In both cases, it is a marathon and it's that consistent delivery of value. That will build up your credibility and your audience.

Mark, such a pleasure. Thank you for being here. And everyone, make sure you go to the blog post for this episode so we can connect up to Mark and you can find out all about the Career Toolkit, the Brain Bump app, and Podcast Alchemy series. There were so many different ways Mark and I could have taken this interview, and I love that his prep work, which I didn't go into when I was doing my introduction of Mark, but it— our prep work He spends time really connecting and talking with his host that he's going to be on, trying to understand the most important value he can bring to the audience. But what part of his experience, his expertise, his book, or his app can he bring out and highlight that's unique to the show? Which means that even though he's been a guest 200+ times in a year and more than that since then, That he's never repeating himself, which I think is an amazing gift to every one of you podcasters out there. You get a guest that is an absolute pro, and it's not the same old stuff they did on everyone else's show. That's pretty amazing. So I'm so glad that Mark could come back and talk with me here and really share these ideas with you. I, I'm also really fascinated by the controversy that's already been generated by some of the Podcast Alchemy articles. There was the one that just came out as I'm recording this today that was really about the idea of the pitching part of the guests. So if you're pitching to be a guest on a podcast and you send out a pitch, should you send out a generic one or should you customize? And the prevailing advice out there from all the guesting podcast guesting service companies and all the experts out there is that everything should be custom. And Mark might've found something different in his experience. So it is definitely worth reading. That will be linked in the blog post for this episode at podcastersunited.org and all the connections up to Mark's great information and the Brain Bump app, which you really wanna check out if you wanna think about that sort of like how you're gonna dial in and do shared quotes and some other things for your show. This might be a great tool for you to explore using, and he's made it podcaster-friendly. So it's definitely something that you wanna check out. So all the links for that and to connect directly up to Mark, cuz you should be directly connected with Mark Hirschberg everywhere on social media, will be in the blog post for this episode. So make sure to check that out. But you can also go in your app right down to the description for this episode and connect up with Mark there as well. So thanks everyone for listening. I know this was a departure from our normal binge factor, but I'm really glad you were here today so that we could talk about this viewpoint of our industry. I'll be back next week with another podcaster to talk about their binge factor.

Get ready to binge on our next podcast deconstruction as we uncover the hidden mistakes that can make or break a show. Want your podcast to have that irresistible binge factor too? Go to podcastersunited.org for a treasure trove of free resources and live expert coaching. Don't let your podcasting voice fade out. Renovate your show today before your podcast becomes a money pit and not a moneymaker.