Just Be a Good Human Who Pays Attention | Dr. Vince Hafeli

I hid it because I thought it would impact my career. We set them up for failure and they struggled. And I wanted to find out, is there a model out there or how could we better help those guys? There was one contractor in the room wanted to talk because his company had lost two employees to suicide. I felt like a failure. I felt like a loser. I felt hopeless. And I don't know that I was. That's just where I was. And that's how I perceived myself.

Foreign. Welcome to the Edge podcast. My name is Tristan Wilson. I'm the CEO and founder at EdgeVanta. I am so happy to have one of my friends, Vince Hafeli, on the podcast today. Vince is a president of Ajax Paving Industries of Florida. He's been in the construction industry for over 30 years. He's also got a doctorate in business administration from the University of South Florida, where he studied mental health and suicide and construction. Vince is a multiple Ironman finisher as well. He's got an amazing TEDx talk that I would highly recommend that everybody watch. I'm going to leave a link in the. In the show notes. He's also the author of a fantastic book that I have seen on the desks or the bookshelves of almost all of our clients that we work with called Mental Health and Suicide. My personal story and the stories of those left behind with a deep dive into the construction industry. He's also served as the chairman of the Asphalt Contractors association of Florida, and he is on the board of directors of the National Asphalt Pavement Association. And we're actually going to be hanging out here in a couple. Couple weeks together out, out in Arizona. So, Vince, welcome to the show.

Well, you make me sound a lot more impressive than I am, so thank you. And 30 years. You made me younger, too. It's actually 40 years now.

Yeah, I'm the old guy. 30. 30 plus. So close. Close enough. So, Vince, you. You've said that you thought sharing your story would, would end your career. What, what made you finally decide to. To speak after 17 years of. Of silence?

Well, when I went back, I went back to the USF and was going to pursue my doctorate in business. And when I went back, I actually wanted to research frontline leadership. Like foreman superintendents, we take great equipment operators and when the foreman leaves, we say, hey, you're a great equipment operator. Now you're the foreman. And we set them up for failure and they struggle. And I wanted to find out, is there a model out there or how could we better help those guys? And six months into the doctoral program. I gave that pitch to one of the professors, and he looked at me and said, that's pretty weak and lame. Go find something better. And he said, they already studied why great physicians make terrible hospital administrators. Just go read what they did and rewrite it, and you'll be done. So I took his advice and went home and thought a little bit. And I had written a paper that got published at a conference over in India earlier in that program. And the hook line in that paper was suicide and construction. That was the hook to get everybody to read all the boring stuff on the back. And I asked Dr. Null, I said, how about suicide and construction? And he asked why? And suddenly I had to answer him. And from 2007 until 2021, nobody knew that I had tried to take my life. One night, the only people that knew was what became my ex wife and my son. And he asked the question, so I had to answer it. And he said, well, that'd be powerful if you could do something with that. So I began the research that summer and got heavily into it. And I learned about qualitative research from one of the professors that fall. And I went and had breakfast with her, and I thought, well, this is. This is what I want to do. I want to answer this question. I want to help people. And January of. I guess it would have been 22, maybe December of 21, I reached out to Nath Prasad, the president of the Florida transportation builders association, and asked him, can I have 30 minutes at your construction conference in February? And also I want to put together a breakfast for some industry executives. And he said, yeah. And I said, well, don't you want to know what it's about? And he said, no, I trust you. And so I drafted a proclamation. I don't know. They're on the wall.

Oh, yeah, okay.

And that proclamation challenged industry executives to begin addressing mental health and suicide in their company, to make a commitment to say they would do that. And so I reached out to a lot of companies, and some companies said, no, we don't want to participate in that. We don't. That's not what we do. Another companies did. I was honored that Ward Nye, the president of CEO of Martin Mary aggregates, flew down from the Carolina to be there that morning. Dave Bauer, the president of the American road and transportation builders, came down. Doug Carlson from nuca National Contractors, International Contractors. And they came down. And I'm not sure if they really knew what they were getting into at that point, But I had a breakfast in the back prior to, and they got to be interviewed about why they were there. And then I got up on the stage in front of 2,000 people that day and the first words out of my mouth were, wow, this is a big room. And I told my story and I cried at times, but I made it through it. That was the first time in front of a large group. I had talked about it a little bit with the women of Asphalt on a podcast and at the Indiana Asphalt Pavement in a breakout session with about 20 people. But that's the first time it was really out there. And after that I just began to receive a lot of calls saying, hey, will you come talk to our company? Will you come talk to our organization? And I mean, Yesterday was what, January 14th? And I just did my 112th talk on the topic of Honeywell up in Muncie, Indiana. So I've been to more than 112 places given the talk on it.

That's incredible. That's a really, if you do the numbers on that and you kind of think about how many, you know, people are working at those, you know, different companies and add that up, that's a, that's a really massive, that's a massive impact. It's pebble, pebble in a pond.

You know, if I go in and look at the TEDx numbers and then I, I keep a head count at every place I go and, and talk and the number of people directly is like 2.3 million. So if those 2.3 million told two or three people and though two or three told one or two. Yeah, I'm kind of proud of that.

Yeah, as you should be. And I'm proud of you because it's amazing work that, that, that you're doing. Could, could you tell, you know, for, for maybe some folks, you know, some of our viewers who, who, who aren't familiar, you know, with, with, with your story. Could you, could you take me back to, you know, to, to 1989 and, and kind of how, Just tell me a little bit about what you've, what you've experienced.

I'll jump back to like 1967 to the mid-70s, just briefly. I came from a very small family, blue collar family. My dad was a coal miner, my mom worked in a dress factory. Had a brother that was nine years older than me and they were very instrumental. We camped on the weekends, water skied, we horseback rode, we had dirt bikes. My family, close family was very important to me. And then to jump to 1989 in May, I got a call from my Mother that my brother was terminally ill. And then two months later, in July, my father passed. And then my wife and I had twin sons that we lost in November. And then in 1993, on my niece's fifth birthday, my brother's daughter, that's the day my brother passed. And I lost my mother not long after that to cancer. So I lost my support system, I lost people that I could talk to. And my dad was probably one of the most loving men you would ever want to know when it came to family. And I just always remember that you got to be tough, you got to be strong. Men don't talk, they don't share of their emotions and feelings outwardly. So you got to be the man, you got to be the beginning blue collar coal miner. I mean, tough, tough industry. And so that's what I did. And even when my wife and I left the twins, I didn't talk to her about it because I felt like that would be selfish. It felt like she had, you know, carried them, she'd given them breath and life and brought them into the world and they were gone. You know, we made decision to take Jared off of life support after some time. So I mean, I just thought it would be selfish to talk to her. So I didn't. I was a man. But I tell people that was probably maybe the single worst decision I ever made in my life because it began to drive a wedge between us. I became pretty selfish and self centered and really cared more about me than I did other people. And that's not how I was raised and that's not who I am now. But I went through a lot of years with that. And that led to me on a lot of ways not being a good man or a good husband and eventually into a divorce. So I carried that from 89 to 07 and 07. I made a decision after a great day at work because work is where I was a rock star and that's where everything was good. And at home I felt like a failure, I felt like a loser. I felt hopeless. And I don't know that I was. That's just where I was. And that's how I perceived myself. And one evening I came home and put my dishes in the dishwasher. And after I did that, I heard them rattling and clanking behind me as they were being rearranged. And that just kind of confirmed what I thought, that I was pretty much a failure and a loser as a man because I couldn't even put dishes away right. And that night I drove out here behind our asphalt plant where I'm sitting right now. And that's where I was going to take my life that night. And I got a telephone call that took me a different direction.

And that call was from your son, is that correct?

The call was from my wife at the time, and she said, your son is on his way there. And I wasn't going to let my son find me like that. So I thought, what would my dad tell me to do? And my dad would tell me, hey, be a man, be tough. Laugh, joke it off. And that's what I did. And I went back home, and she wanted to talk, and I said, there's nothing to talk about. I was out for a ride, and I got to go to bed. I got to get up and go to work in the morning. And from that night in 2007 until that day with the professor in 2021, that night was never talked about again. A lot there, isn't it?

It's a lot. Thank you. One for, for, for. For. For sharing all of. All of that. It's, it's really, it's really powerful. And it's just rare, Vince, to hear somebody, like, talk about reality and what they've actually been through and the feelings, you know, that, that you've had and what you've overcome. I think in this industry, it's very common for people to put on the aura of, everything's okay, everything's great, we're doing fantastic, when in reality, there's horrible turmoil and conflict that's going on that's unresolved. And, you know, part of the reason why I kind of say that is because, like, I've, you know, I've. I felt that. And you know, the first time that we met, I, I, you told me your story, and I, I almost started. I mean, I, I was emotional because at, at that time in, in, in my life, you know, we had, we had just sold my family's business and, and I had barrier, and I had my whole identity and everything wrapped up in that. And, and I felt like the fact that we sold made me a failure because I thought that I was destined to help run the company and help keep it going for our employees. And I felt like I had personally failed at that. And it was really my, at that time, it felt like it was my entire life's mission, that that's what I was like, put on this earth to, to do. And, and I felt really ashamed. And, and I thought about taking my own life as a result of that. And, and, and it was a really hard time, you know, for me. And I did, I did work, meditation. I got into exercise. I started, you know, taking care of myself and, and reading and reflection and, and spirituality and, and support from my, you know, family and friends and, and eventually have gotten to a better place, although I'm not like, fully out of the woods, you know, yet to this, you know, to this day. But hearing you talk about your story motivated me to talk about my struggles with depression and, and, and, and I would have. I probably wouldn't have been as comfortable or, or even have discussed it had it not been for seeing you and, and you being so open about it. So, you know, I. One, I just wanted to thank you for, for, for doing that. It had a really positive impact on me and, and it's really changed the whole conversation in the construction industry with the work that you're doing and made it. It's. You have made it okay to talk about how you feel mentally, in my opinion, and it's having an impact. So. And I'm, I'm just, I'm grateful for, for, for that and for the courage that it took for you to, to step up.

Well, thank you. I mean, I didn't, I didn't talk about it primarily. Probably one of the main reasons. When I came to work at Ajax In October of 02, fast forward to July or June of 03, I walked into Mike Horan's office. Mike was the president of Ajax, and he's now the owner of Ajax, him and his family. And I told Mike, hey, when you're done being president, I want to be president of the company. So I thought, nobody can know about this. I just told this man, what, four or five years ago that I wanted to run his company. And again, he's got to be thinking, run my company. You can't even run your own life. You can't even take care of yourself. And you want me to give you all these employees to take care of. So I hid it because I thought it would impact my career. When we were at a peer group meeting at the breakers over in West Palm, Florida, it was probably in 23, 22, somewhere in there with a group of other contractors. There was one contractor in the room, wanted to talk because his company had lost two employees into suicide that year. And then another one wanted to talk about an employee they lost to suicide. And the moderator leaned over on my ear and he said, God, you know, anyone that would kill themselves, they're just crazy. They're wired wrong at birth. They got a Chemical imbalance, something's wrong with them. And at that point Mike didn't know the story. So that's the day I thought I would probably lose my job. And I put my hand up and I said, time out. I'm going to, I'm going to tell you something. People get there through struggles and I told my story and the whole time I was thinking, well, this ain't going to end. Well, the meeting ended and so we leave the room and Mike and I are walking down the corridor towards the elevator and he put his arm around me and he said, that was powerful. I'm very proud of you. Completely the opposite of what I thought, right. I tell people, you know, I told you that 2.3 million number. I have had one person say something negative to me. Maybe they've said it to other people, but only one person, and that was a professor out of the great state of Oklahoma. And he said this conversation has no business being in the workplace, which to me is completely false because we are a safety driven industry and you can't be physically safe if you're mentally somewhere else. I didn't say mentally ill or mentally unstable. You're just mentally somewhere else. That day maybe you got a call on the way to work that your mother, Jeff learn she got cancer or your brother terminal, whatever the case may be. And so you're just not thinking. So yeah, we've got, if we want to take safety in our industry to the next level, we have to be willing to discuss mental health and encourage our employees to let us know when they need some help, some guidance.

This is, this is a great point and I think brings up one of the, one of the main questions that I had for you. So let's, let's say I work, I'm in management at a great construction company, right? So I'm a project manager, let's say, or maybe an estimator or maybe an area manager or even the president. What are some things that, that I can do to help support my, my, my employees? And what are some things that I need to, that I should be looking out for? Because I was trained in civil engineering or construction management or you know, whatever, but I wasn't trained on how to prepare, to be aware of people that are having issues.

When I did my doctoral research, I did qualitative research. So I did a lot of interviews with people. I interviewed 30 industry executives from across the US and those companies had done something with mental health and their companies. And there was only One thing that 100% of them agreed on the leadership of the organization have to say we're going to do something and then they have to stand behind it. And by standing behind it, I mean they have to. Occasionally they got to talk about it at a safety day, or maybe if they're out for a site visit, they have a little daily huddle with it. I'm not saying they got to carry the torch every day, but they have to carry the torch. Most of those companies, kind of like here at Ajax, eventually, either the HR or safety department are the champions of that. But what we did here at our company is we have a team called the Ajax warriors. It's about 10% of our company are warriors. No additional pay, no additional benefits. They just get to be part of the warrior program. And to do that, they get sent and get trained as mental health first aid responders. It's about a six hour online where you can have it in person things. So they learn mental health first aid questions along suicide, what to ask, what not to ask, what sign to look for. All of our people that manage people. So if you manage people, we require that you go through vital cog training. It's out of Colorado State University, I think it is. And that's just a two hour online program. I think you can do it online. I know we have in house trainers, but anyway teaches them again. So what can the guy that you alluded to, the manager out in the field, do? Yeah, if his leadership doesn't get behind it, it's going to be difficult. But once they're behind it, you know, when you do your research, you got to do all these literature reviews and you got to document all these reasons why people in construction would decide to take their life. But to me there's really, if there's a silver bullet, it's knowing the people around you, knowing what they do each day, knowing that Tristan has been here for five years. And for five years Tristan gets to work 10 minutes early every day. And now God is suddenly he's getting here 15 minutes late every day. So what's going on? And I'm not saying that Tristan's suicidal. I'm just telling you that his behavior is different. Right. Maybe Mary, that normally sits in the break room every day and eats lunch with the other office staff, suddenly she doesn't sit in the office anymore. She stays in her cubicle. I'm not telling you Mary's suicidal. I'm just telling you that her behavior is different. That's when you want to say, hey, Tristan, what's going on? I Noticed you're late coming to work every day and that's not you. Well, you know, maybe he has a reason. Maybe. You know, I just learned that my mother's only got a few weeks left to live, so I'm stopping by the home, the nursing home every morning to see her. I just need to see her for a few more minutes. So something changed. It doesn't mean he's suicidal, but when you see the changes, you get a conversation, you build some rapport with one another, and you may find out that there is something there, that they are. And if there is, then you got to ask some difficult questions. We learned a week ago that one of our best subcontractors took his life. And I talked to someone that said, you know, we had all the training and I asked all of the questions, but I didn't ask the one question. And the one question is a difficult question. And if you think someone is suicidal, you need to ask them, are you thinking about taking your life? That's the difficult question. And if they tell you, yeah, you know, I'm thinking about it, then question number two is, have you thought about how you would do it? Okay, so you're thinking about it and you've got a plan. The third question is, do you have the means to do it? Yeah, you know, I've thought about it and got, I've got a pistol in my truck and I've just, I've thought about putting it in my mouth. Okay, I want your pistol. Can I have your pistol? Can I. And this is, I'm not an anti gun guy. I got guns in my house. So it's not an anti gun talking. It could be a pistol, it could be bill pills, it could be whatever. So if you, if you, if you see someone behaving differently, just be a good person. Just ask them as, as a friend, as a coworker, what's going on. Because if they're behaving differently and if you're on, let's say a paving crew and you're out working in live traffic, you want them to be able to protect themselves. Because they can't protect themselves, they're putting you in harm's way as well and everybody else on the crew. So I tell people it's really just a simple, just be a good person, just be a good human that cares. And I know in today's world that maybe isn't the flavor that we perceive and see. But I'm going to tell you that in our industry, I have been a lot of places and Talked to a lot of people. And there probably only been a handful of places where I've been that afterwards, men don't want to come up and talk. I mean, yesterday a man wanted to come up and tell me about a family member he had lost to suicide. He wanted to show me his arms, where he had done cuts, where he had struggled younger. There. There is a lot of compassion and caring in our industry and in our companies. Once people know that, God, I'm not alone. I'm not the only one. I'm not the freak. And my company is here to help me. I mean. I mean, I can name the companies that have done things. I mean, C.W. matthews, great contract in Atlanta. They're done things. Wright Brother Construction, the Tennessee and the Carolina, they're done things. Milestone. And I mean, there's just companies all across the US that are doing things with this now. And I think if you ask any of the companies, would they go back and not do it again and do it is address mental health and have those conversations, you're not going to get one of them. And I don't think I'm wrong, tell you that they would not go down that path again. Because if you think you are a good company, if you think you're a good leader, doing this only makes you better. I mean, I've got a book full of emails and different things from employees. I mean, it's powerful.

Yeah. And all it takes is just a couple, one or two people to make a change, right? To say, we're gonna do something, we're going to do something about this. That's all. And then you can have a massive, you know, impact, like the impact that you're having, you know, with. With those, you know, with those. With those big contractors that you mentioned.

The funny thing is, up until last week, I'd given the talk at 110 places. You know, the one place I'd never given it, I don't know where, Ajax, really. And we had two safety days last week. So half of the company was on Tuesday and the other half was on Thursday. And we were in Tampa the Thursday one. And I just had a lot of people coming up to me with questions and struggles and wanting to share. And at the midpoint of the meeting, right before the keynote, I went up on the stage and said, hey, I'm going to do something that I've never done here at the company. This is going to be impromptu. And at lunch, you know, half of you get to leave and the other half got to stay. But you're all more than welcome to stay. I'm going to do a talk for you that I've done at different places around the country and around the world. And if you want to stay and listen, you can. And I did. And the emails that I got this week from people wanting to say I was getting treatment and getting counseling, but I didn't want anybody to know. And God, I see what you went through and I'm going to be okay. Other people that we've now gotten into some treatment that weren't into treatment before, but only because I got up and for 30 minutes just told people that you've seen my presentation. I show them how great my life was from a childhood through my career. And then I show them the things we talked about from 89 up into the 90s. And you know, I used to always have this perception when I was early on my career that, God, I could never sit in a room with the president of Pick a company because these are just, they're men, they're gods. And I could, I could never be in a room with people that are millionaires because, God, they would laugh at me. And, and suddenly once you do, you realize that those guys aren't any different than I am.

Normal folks.

And so I think it's when I, when I, when, when I go and give these talks, I dress the same way I'm dressed today. I got my work boots on, I got my blue jeans on. And you wanted me to wear solid color shirts, so I got a solid color shirt on today for you.

Fair enough.

I listened to and I, I want people to know that, yeah, I've had a great life, I've had a great career, but I'm no different than you. Crap's happened in my life. I just didn't deal with it well. So I'm trying to help you understand how to deal with it. And all you've got to do to deal with it is talk to someone. And I'm not telling you you necessarily even got to go see a therapist. I mean, I eventually did and it helped and I still do on occasion. But, you know, I didn't have a mother to talk to, I didn't have a brother to talk to. My father when gone. Just find someone that you can talk to and maybe it's your parishioner, you know, a priest, or maybe it's a family member, or maybe it's somebody at work. Probably it's about nine months ago I was in another valley and going to sell everything, move away and run to the Hills. And Stacy, my wife, said, you know, hey, before you go make any stupid decisions, maybe I'll go talk to someone again. And so I did. I took her advice, you know, a Sunday or two later, she said, God, you seem so much happier. Why? And I said, well, you know, you told me to go back and talk to Alyssa, Alyssa the therapist. And I said, so I did. And I said, you know, when you sit and talk to someone and you say things out loud, it just sounds so much more different when you keep saying them over and over in your head. So sometimes you need someone to listen, someone to talk to.

Yeah. This reminds me of a great book that a friend gifted to me called the Untethered Soul by Michael Singer. He's actually a Floridian, and he talks about how we have two voices. We have the voice that's kind of the inner roommate, the inner monologue that is a much bigger, in most cases, a much younger version of ourselves. Who can be. For me, it's like, can be very critical. It can be very intense. And it talks. It's. It talks in a way that I would never talk to a friend. Like, if this were a roommate, I'd be like, look, we can't live together. Like, this is. This. This is too much like. But that's not the real. That's not the real me. That's just basically a voice. The. The real me is the one that's listening to these things and just being aware of them. And for me, like you, therapy allows me to get some of this. Get some of these things out. And sometimes when they come out of my mouth, I'm like, I know this doesn't sound rational, but this is what I'm thinking.

Yeah.

And. And sometimes it's just nice to, To. To. To talk to somebody.

I tell people, if you've never been to see a therapist before, it kind of goes like this. It's kind of like a three step thing. You show up the first time and you leave and you think, oh, that was pretty good. She wanted to know about my kids and what I do for hobbies and kind of like going on a date. Right?

Right.

Then you show up the second time, and after about 15 minutes, you go to thinking, now she's getting into my head. This is not as much fun as the first visit because she's analyzing me. And then I went in on the third visit and she said, okay, I've got you figured out, Vince. You suffer from depression, anxiety, add, and you're controlling. And I looked at her and said, what the hell do you want me to do with that? Because I've never been in any of those things. I've never had depression. I've been sad, I've been lonely. So when it was time to go back, the fourth week, I canceled and didn't go because I had enough of that. On the fifth week, I didn't go back again. And finally on the sixth week, I went back because I learned the depression. The definition is not what my father gave me. The, the definition that he gave me was that people's depression or wounds, and they take and lock them up. And in Jonesboro, that's where the mental institution is in Illinois, where I grew up. And I learned that depression didn't really mean that for more than 14 days you have something different. Maybe you're eating a lot and you typically don't eat a lot, or you can't eat, or you can't sleep or you can't get out of bed, something different. You're irritable, and you're not normally irritable, whatever that is. If you've done that for 15 days, clinically, you're going through depression. But depression, just like a physical injury, you know, I can sprain my ankle, I can break my ankle, or I can have my ankle and foot decapitated or cut off, right? Depression, kind of the same way everybody doesn't need to be locked up. Like my dad told me, some people just need someone to talk to, and they may go through it once in their life or they may go through periods of it. And a lot of it just depends on your environment and where you're at and what, what you're going through in life, because life throws a lot of crap at you.

Yeah. And I think the other thing too, that I try to watch out for is, you know, as somebody who's struggled with depression, dealt with depression, I, I, I'm very careful about placing a label on myself. So when I say I've struggled with depression or I've dealt with depression, I am not saying I'm a depressed person. Because if I label myself as a depressed person, I'm going to believe that and think that it is permanent and that it's going to last forever and that it's never going to change. Right. And, but, but that's just not, you know, the, the, the, the, the reality is, because eventually things do change, you know, one, one way or another. It's not, it's not a state of permanence, even though it can be very painful, you know, in, in the moment.

That's what I said earlier. I. You. I go through highs and lows still, and I tried in not make the highs as high and the lows as low. I mean, my son used to have a baseball coach and said the best baseball players or Owen just kind of flatlined.

If.

If they're in a hitting streak, you don't really know it. And if they're in a slump, you really don't know it. They're just working. They're just working through it.

Yeah, the. I like Mariano Rivera was one of my favorite baseball players, the closer. And he's just like, so cool, so collected, did his job, didn't get excited, you know, just. Just to. Took care of it. So you've. I guess you've said in the past. I think you've said that like it's. It should be okay to say that I'm. I'm not. That I'm not okay right now. How do you create that culture in, like, this industry when it's kind of built on this, like, toughness and this kind of, like, macho, you know, bravado?

Well, I guess I've tried to get some industry people to listen to it. I don't know if it's in a selfish way. I've put the spin. I mean, I've bluntly said to some people, hey, look, even if you don't care about mental health, I know you care about profit. I know you care about money. So even if you don't care about the people and you don't care about what they're going through, if you can create an environment into your company where that man can come to work or woman and say, hey, today I'm struggling a little bit. Maybe I shouldn't be setting the beam on the bridge over the interstate. Or maybe you have some other one there with me. They're just this. Mental health ties into so many pieces. Company profit, company safety, public safety. It helps you hire and recruit people. I continue to hear about this hiring issue in the construction industry, and nobody can find anyone. We probably ought to hire someone to go through the resumes and weed them out so we don't have to go through so many. We don't have a hiring problem. We don't. And at the Ford Expo a few years ago, the. The Asphalt Contractor in December meeting, I got up on the stage and gave my talk. And when I got to the end, some of my competitors were in the room. Preferred Materials, Hubbard Construction, CWR Contracting. And we've always had a gentleman's agreement not to hire and steal each other's employees. And we honor that. But that day I told them, I'm tired of your employees coming to our company wanting to go to work because of the culture we created. So I told them, if you don't change your culture, I'm going to start hiring your people. And I'm saying that here on the pulpit in front of everybody, so it's not a secret. And preferred had me come. Kevin Price had Preferred, the vice president in central Florida had me come and speak to their company about mental health awareness. Hubbard Construction, they jumped on board and every year they help us with the suicide walk that we do in Florida that now gone national. CWR contracting. Jamie there, he talks every year, annually at all the safety meetings in the south think the he goes to. And you know what? We don't get a lot of their employees wanting to come over here and go to work anymore because they, they all had good culture. But now they've added something that the fewer of the people are leaving. So hey, if you don't want to do it because you care about the people and you're the leader of the company, do it as a selfish individual because you want to keep people in your company and you want to keep, keep your profits up. But that's not the reason why you should want to do it.

Right. Well one, it's the, it's the, it's. It's, it's. It's the right, it's the right thing to do. But you're right. I mean, everybody's listening. I like to say everybody's listening to WIIFM radio. What's, what's in it for me? And, and there's a lot in it for, for you and, and for all of your, and for all of your people. The. I did want to ask you a little bit about your, your in endurance, you know, fitness and just exercise in general. Because I feel like when I was working in construction, like when I was working on the, in, in the, you know, the summertime on the cruise, I was, I was getting up really early and I was going out and, and working all day outside. I was sweating. I was burning crazy calories. You know, I was, you know, 18 years old or whatever, and it kind of felt like there was like nothing left at the end of the day, you know, physically that I had to give. But I feel like fitness and exercise and, and like health and even nutrition is, is overlooked in, in, in our industry. And you know that a lot of the people, especially the folks who are working out in the field. Field. Do not or aren't, aren't given or don't take the time to, to go to go exercise. So you're an 11 time, you know, Ironman finisher, which for people who don't know that's 2.4 mile swim, 112 mile bike and then a full, and then a full marathon. So that's not messing around. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on like how are you able to fit exercise into the your routine given that you're, you know, running a large construction company, traveling and you know, have all these other commitments and obligations.

You have to put it on your calendar and it has to be a plan. No different than putting on your calendar that you've got a meeting at 1 o' clock this afternoon. I have a coach I'm fortunate that I can pay that gives me a plan every week and she holds me accountable, which helps. So if you can do that. Here at Ajax, we give our employees money each year to join gyms part of their health program. So we incentivize them to try to do things. I get it. If you're out in the field for 12 hours behind a hot paver, the last thing you want to do is go home and run for 10 miles because you walked five miles already. While you're out doing that, You got to have a plan and you got to stick to the plan and you schedule it and the health piece of it. When I'm not training, I put on 30 pounds and I'm not happy with myself. I don't like how I feel, I don't like how my clothes fit, I don't like what I look like. And so it mentally weighs on me and people don't have to go do 140.6 mile Ironman. You can do a 5K. Just something that gives you a goal. Because I got to have a goal, I'm goal oriented. So hey, I'm doing a half ironman this May and I'm doing a full Ironman in September. I didn't have them goals, I wouldn't have something to work for. So have a realistic goal if it's a 5k or a 10k or if it's ultra runs of a hundred miles, like you're done. Have a goal and then build a plan to help you reach the goal.

I think if I'm, I love the message of start small that it doesn't have to be, you don't have to have a super elaborate, you know, plan or anything like that it can just be something. Something really small. So starting small. The second part you mentioned was an accountability partner. So, like you, I. I have a coach, and I'm fortunate, you know, to. To. To have that. But what the coach helps me the most with is somebody else is looking at my stuff.

Yeah.

And if I miss, I know she's going to be like, what happened on Wednesday? And there are days, I mean, at least half the time I don't want to go outside. I'm staring, I'm sitting, looking out of my front door at thinking, you know, 22 degrees is just really cold. Maybe. Maybe it'll be nicer this afternoon, you know, maybe. Maybe there'll be some sun out, you know, and then I listen to this. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not listening to you. I got to go do this. And. And it's often just the first step of kind of taking it and. And doing it that just keeps. Keeps you going. And people are like, people think I. I think people who. Who maybe aren't into fitness think that everybody who's into fitness is crazy motivated. I'm not that motivated. Like, I'm not that disciplined. I do it on days when I don't want to do it, and I just try to show up even on my worst days and do something. Even 15 minutes is better than nothing.

You ever listen to David Coggins?

All the time.

He'll tell you that he hates to run, and that's all he does is run. He's making money off of it, probably because of all the motivational speeches and things he gets to do. But, yeah, I mean, hey, I'm sitting here thinking, God, it's going to be 32 degrees here tonight in Florida. The high tomorrow is going to be in the 50s, and I got to go get in the pool and swim. And I'm just dreading it. But as much as I'm dreading that, I'm dreading the comment I'm going to get from my coach Saturday morning when she looked to see that I didn't swim on Friday. So I'm going to go swim because I would rather get in that cold water for 45 minutes and take the butt chew and I'm going to get on Saturday morning 100%.

I think the other thing, too, is if you can figure out a way to do whatever activity it is that you like to do with other people. So maybe it's like, take a walk or maybe even, you know, go on a jog. If you're meeting somebody else at a specific time, the likelihood of you showing up for that is so much higher than if you're just doing it by yourself because you have that that easy that, that that easy out. So I think rituals and you know, having something on the calendar with somebody else can be another way for people to get started, you know, especially as we're kind of kicking off the new year.

But as great as the physical piece of it is, it does more for me mentally than it does physically. Some of the best ideas I've come up with for here at work is out on a Saturday on a 6 mile or 6 hour bike ride or out on an 18 mile run on a Sunday morning. It just gives you a chance.

To.

Think whatever that is. And so for me, as powerful as it is physically, it does even more for me mentally.

Yeah, I would absolutely agree. It's a superpower. And yeah, I hope that mental health is massive. I think part of that is, is, is physical health as, as well. And I think the whole, our whole industry will benefit would benefit from, you know, more a little bit more, you know, exercise if we can get it, and, and, and trying to eat, you know, trying to eat, eat good foods, you know, eat whole foods. Avoid ultra processed, ultra processed foods because if, if you can avoid it, you know, you sure feel a heck of a lot better. You know, know, when you get up and, and do your thing every day. So sick. It's great. Well, great. Well, Vince, that's probably a good spot for us to. A good spot for us for us to to, to press pause. This has been an awesome conversation. Exactly. You know, as, as, as I was expecting. Really appreciate your, your vulnerability and, and you getting out and spreading this, this positive message around, you know, mental health. I think the impact that you have had in this, in this, this construction in the construction industry with mental health is, is absolutely amazing. And you've done it by being vulnerable and telling your story and making it okay for other people to, to tell theirs. And, and you know, if it helps just one person and saves one person, you know, from making a decision that you can't, that you can't take back, it's, it's totally worth it. And, and I know it's, it's. What you've done is help countless people, myself included. So thank you and thank you for the work that you're doing and thanks for, for sharing it with, with, with our community here.

Well, thank you for having me.

Cool.

And I'll see you in Arizona.

Okay. All right, sounds good. All right, thanks again. So, Vince, if people want to reach you, where's the. Where's the. I know you said you're not doing as much social media, so where. If one wants to reach you, how does one do that?

Well, they can. I still get on LinkedIn every morning and play LinkedIn games, and if there's any messages in there, I answer them.

Okay, so LinkedIn.

LinkedIn's a good spot.

Okay, awesome. So great. All right, well, sounds good. We'll really appreciate it. Thanks again for. For. For coming on.

All right, thank you.