Busyness Is an Addiction. Here's What It's Hiding | Kristan Swan | The IgnitedNeurons Podcast

Busyness was a great way to avoid pain and grief and loss.

Kristen built a career teaching people how to hustle harder, and then in her own journey, at some point, her marriage failed. And when that happened, the hustle stopped working.

I'm in recovery from busyness. Absolutely.

This, my friend, is not a joke. It's an actual confession.

Trust it. Your timing is the right time.

Now say that to someone who's chasing a deadline that's only made in their heads and not in real life. We chase to do something by 22, be somewhere by 33, have a life by 40, and maybe retire by 50. But these are all deadlines that we make in our own heart and head.

It wasn't as scary a place as I thought it was going to be, to be still with myself. Be really intentional about seeking wonder and awe in every single day. Be big and be willing to take kind of those big leaps without a set of expectations, right? And just allow your curiosity to be your companion.

My promise to you is that by the end of this conversation, In a life that feels so damn busy, we'll help you create 15 minutes of stillness, 15 minutes of awe, 15 minutes of bliss that you can live with. Let's dive in. We live in a world that's obsessed with speed. Faster careers, faster growth, faster success, everything faster. And so it's really great that we have this bike rally happening behind you, Kristin. But what we are going to try today— and so listeners, if you're someone who's really searching for what you can find out when you slow down, for what you can gain when you slow down, then this conversation is just for you because Kristin and I are gonna speak about identity, curiosity, purpose, and what it means to be slowing down because slow down is sexy. Welcome, Kristin, to the conversation.

Oh, thank you so much. I'm really looking forward to this. And yes, I am chuckling because this, you know, Kind of the yin and the yang of our conversation topic and kind of what we were, and then the— we have the motorcycles in the background. So it's the perfect way to enter into—

Yeah.

And also just how noisy our world is too, right? I mean, we've talked about kind of that, how fast everything is, and I think coupled with that is just a lot of A lot of noise.

Yeah, yeah. It's just, as you spoke about that, the world being noisy, and as I heard the bikes revving up behind you, at our company, we have this ritual, Kristin, that every time we start a weekly meeting, we ask a question. And my question to the team this week was that if you sit in silence and your brain is shouting one thing at you, what would that be? What's your answer, Kristin?

Oh gosh, I love this question. This is, I mean, and it's always going to, yes, and you may have heard my puppy in the background there, 'cause she clearly has an answer that she wants to share. But I love how this, I think about so many different things, right? Because depending on the day, it could be, You know, my brain is shouting at me, you know, you've got so much to do, like get started, and how are you possibly gonna get through everything, right? I mean, there could be that kind of noise happening. And then on those days when I am kind of, you know, maybe there's been some friction, friction that I may have created in terms of not showing up in a conversation or in a, You know, in dialogue with someone. And so a lot of times my brain can get very noisy and around just the really kind of the lament of being unkind or just not kind of— and sometimes it's not even being unkind. It's this idea that— The thing that I was trying to say, I didn't articulate it in the way that I wanted it to because clearly the way that it landed for the other person was not my intent.

Yeah.

And I think that also can be a place where I can really, my brain can be shouting it again that when we have a certain intent and yet the impact is so different.

Yeah, it's fascinating, right? You spoke about the noisy outside world, but the world inside is noisy as well, and I think equally noisy. And so if someone's listening to us feeling that they're not connected with who they are, Kristin, they've not experienced the silence, and they want to kind of skip to the next one or feel like this is not going to impact their life, why should they end up listening to the next 40 minutes of conversation, what is in it for them to start to be connected with their own selves?

Well, I hope that there are these moments that resonate for your listeners because I think that all of us have, for starters, I think we all have this noisy brain, right? And the way I think about it is really this, the power of stories, right? And the storytelling that goes on, both the stories that we are telling ourselves, the stories that we've inherited or that we've acquired along the way, and then there's also the stories that we are sharing out to others.

Mm-hmm.

So I love to sit with this idea and share both from my own experience and And I think that storytelling is this universal way that we learn and connect. And it also, our stories can become that mechanism by which we can get stuck too, right?

Mm-hmm.

We can, our stories can end up creating these boundaries for us or patterns. of behavior. So I think that, I hope, I know for myself that the slowing down and the willingness to get curious with those internal and external stories has been such a powerful tool for me to learn more about who I am, which then in turn allows me to make choices that are in alignment with the person I know myself to be and the person that I know I can want, that I want to be, right?

I love that reflection. As you were saying this and the thought of bikes behind you or the thoughts of F1 car races was coming to my mind, I was thinking that life puts us in a, in like top gear, right? Where we are always going at 100 miles per hour. And if you're at 100 miles, there's the adrenaline that is around that, you get a lot of kick out of that speed, but until— unless you really slow down, how do you really observe what's happening around you, what's happening inside of you? So I think it's a very beautiful balance that you and I will hopefully talk about, which is that you have to slow down to speed up. And I think that is super, super important. And on stories, because that's a topic really close to my heart, we want to go to the deep end, Kristin. And so if I were to ask, If your 8-year-old self, the little girl who was growing up with all the stories that she had at that time, if that 8-year-old comes and meets you right now, what kind of stories would they tell? What kind of conversation would that 8-year-old have with your present self?

Ooh, yeah. I mean, I think so much, I mean, I can speak at this point right now and recognize the growth that has happened, right? And sometimes it's— no, not sometimes, all the times it's been, you know, there have been those challenge inflection points, right, that have really asked me to grow, demanded growth. And so if I am to fast forward to my 80-year-old self, I think that it would be some of same kind of wisdom, so to speak, or same reflections that I share right now, which is that I used to be in such a rush, right?

Mm-hmm.

That I did have this sense that I was behind or that there was this, that, you know, there was this timing of things that was, that there was, it was very binary, right? That that either you hit the timing right or you don't.

Mm-hmm.

And that's not true. That is so not true, right? And I know that my 80-year-old self would remind me of that, 'cause I can still do it, where I think like, oh gosh, this has to happen like this, right? And I think it's not only the timing of things in our lives and our tendency to kind of rush because we are so indoctrinated in this idea of destinations. Right? And that destinations are going to be this place where things will be revealed, or that destinations are gonna provide this, this, you know, these rewards, you know, whether it's financial or, you know, kind of social recognition or, or whatever that is. And so we're so kind of destination-driven that Again, that puts that timing piece into it. So I think there would be that element of, you know, your timing is your own and kind of trust that your timing is the right time, right?

Mm-hmm.

And that it's so unique for each person and So I think there's that piece of it. And then there's also this idea of that destination piece and kind of losing your connection to what is happening so beautifully in the moment when we are—

Mm-hmm.

Even when we don't feel like we're rushing to a destination, but it, again, our focus being future-focused, you know, we lose kind of some of not only the beauty of the moment, but we can actually, by not paying attention to the moment, we can miss really great bits of information about ourselves or about kind of—

Mm-hmm.

are the choices that we're making.

I think it's also about the instant gratification that our brain is programmed towards, where it forgets to think of the long term. And in every conversation that I'm having, it's giving me a sense that the word busyness has become almost an acceptable addiction. What are your thoughts about that?

Oh my gosh, I am a recovering, I'm in recovery from busyness. Absolutely. And for myself, I, the, so a couple of things, I, this idea of busyness, and I love that you brought this up because I just think that we, it is such a socially accepted acceptable way of being, right? And it's not only socially acceptable, but it's— we're kind of revered if we're busy. Like, we have such a disdain for people that, you know, gosh, if you're not busy, then you must be lazy, right? Or you somehow, somehow you are less than if you are not busy.

Mm-hmm.

I remember the couple of times when I really fell into this busyness trap. At one point, it was when I was staying at home and raising my little kids, which is something that was so important to me. And because of the way that I had been raised, there was a lot of— I had inherited and acquired both from my family, but also the community I grew up in, and particularly where I went to middle school and high school, this idea of pursuing higher education, this idea of advanced degrees, of conquering the world professionally. And here I was making this choice to be at home with my kids at an age when so many of my cohort were getting those advanced degrees or conquering the professional world. And so kind of my default was to— it didn't feel like it was enough to just say, yeah, I've made this choice that's important to me. And so some days my day doesn't really— It doesn't sound like I've gotten much done, right? It sounds like I'm not very busy. And so there were these moments where I would kind of dive into volunteerism, or I would make myself more available to my extended family, or, you know, and again, kind of trying to appear to be more productive. be worthwhile, right? That I was kind of earning my place, yet despite the fact that I was not out in the workforce.

Mm-hmm.

So there was that time that I was incredibly busy. And I think the other time, again, came from, for me, this— when my My marriage dissolved and I found myself splitting time with my kids with their dad and having these empty hours. And I didn't know how to sit with myself. I didn't know how to navigate How deeply I was mourning the loss of my marriage, of my family as I knew it. So busyness was a great way to avoid pain and grief and loss. And all it did was it just, it just, it just kind of put all of those feelings, it didn't make them go away. It definitely kept them away from my, you know, my top of mind, but it just kind of put them on the shelf where they were, they were going to be there. And I had to eventually, uh, spend time with those feelings.

It almost becomes identity, right? That, that busyness becomes the identity, which is then trying to overpower or overshadow the grief, the loss, the things that, that must be paid attention to but are ignored because of the busyness.

Yeah.

How did you—

and the self-doubt, right? The grief, the loss, the self-doubt, all that. Yeah.

Yeah. So what was that moment, Kristin? Because it takes a lot of work to move out of this, and maybe someone's listening to us right now who's going through that state and has put themselves on that busyness, almost like a loop is what I'm imagining. How do you step out of that? Because stepping out could also feel like failure.

Yeah. Oh, for sure. And it was not— I was joking earlier that those moments of growth have often been Precipitated by challenges, right? And I think what really, for myself, there was the eventual realization that I kind of was hollowed out. by this busyness, that it was so externally driven, right? And it was exhausting. I mean, I'm grateful that I didn't get really sick or something, right?

Mm-hmm.

But it was so exhausting. And I think that just coupled with the fact that The busyness kind of, as I said, it kind of hollowed me out in a way that then there was kind of another sense of loss, right?

Mm-hmm.

The loss of like knowing who I am and what matters to me. So it was not a, It's just not sustainable. I mean, it just is not sustainable. And it doesn't mean that I had this reckoning that was kind of this great epiphany, right? I mean, it was little bits of awareness over time that began to grow to where I— could no longer ignore what I knew to be true in myself because there still is. I mean, as much as we do the busyness, as much as we focus externally, you know, our own wisdom and our own self-knowing is, it's always there.

Yeah.

It does not, It doesn't leave us. I mean, it will be quiet, but it never leaves us. And I think that those moments of awareness finally snowballed to a point where it's like, oh, okay, let's pay attention to this. And I think the good news that I can share, and at least in my experience, is As terrified as I was to fail again, right? I already have failed at several things, but fail again at this thing that I was so good at, the busyness world, and to start saying no or not right now.

Hmm.

And to build some moments of quiet into my day and not be racing. I mean, I literally, I just had my calendars that just things were like stacked on top of each other, right? And so even just by building an hour in between appointments, right? Or saying, gosh, I really am only gonna work from, you know, 8 to 5.

Yeah.

And that's gonna be enough, right? I finally had to just, I had to take little steps at building in some time. And I was sharing that the good news was that it wasn't as scary a place as I thought it was going to be. To be still with myself.

I think we fear that, right? Because we fear that as soon as the mind quietens and then we sit in silence, the noise is going to give us truths that we are uncomfortable with. And so what you're saying, I love that, is to— it's okay, and it's okay to be terrified, and it's okay to be failing at it. But you've got to build moments of quiet. What does that look like for someone who's never done that and is right now, there's this, they're not believing what you and I are talking about. Where, how do they begin? What's the smallest step?

Oh yeah. So I would, I mean, I would say for, if, I mean, and this is how I had to do it, is I had to start by not booking clients back to back, right? So start with a baby step. Start with giving yourself 15, 20 minutes in between appointments, right?

Yeah.

And this was, um, you know, this is if you are in an office setting and you're literally talking about going from, you know, one conference room to another, or if you are working virtually, you know, not going Zoom to Zoom to Zoom. And if you have a different type of work, kind of you have to maybe modify this. So, but it— allow for them there to be some unscheduled time and start with 15 minutes because the good news about 15 minutes is You can get yourself some water or iced tea or coffee, whatever, right? I mean, so you can, you can, you can, you can busy yourself with actually something that will be good, like hydrating yourself. You know, you can, you can take a bio break. You could— I mean, so 15 minutes is not going to be that long and it won't be— I'm not saying you have to chain yourself, but just— Give yourself like 15 minutes of what is actually self-care, right? Get up and stretch or, you know, just breathe, take 10 deep breaths, right?

In those—

it's amazing. It's both amazing what you can do in just 1 minute.

Yeah.

And— but just not doing that back-to-back thing, I think, is a great Start. And there's probably going to be people out there saying, well, that's, that's kind of, that's so obvious. Or that's, I mean, that's kind of a, that's a silly recommendation. Like, and, and I, I think what I would say to, to the people who say this, because I've, I had my own experience, the people who will, you know, criticize kind of these simple you know, changes to your schedule or to your habits. These are the people who aren't doing this, right? And I think that's how you can start. I love the other thing that is, again, a habit that you can build into your day is I really, I mean, obviously there are moments where I haven't heard the alarm and I'm You know, gotta catch a plane. And so I've gotta just bounce outta bed like a rocket. However, on most days, and what I really work to incorporate in my morning is when I first wake up, Hmm. I take a deep breath, you know, and I just kind of allow myself to You know, I stretch out my legs and wiggle my toes a little bit. I, I allow myself to get present and get within, you know, myself.

Yeah.

And so I really, I like to, I like to give myself a couple of minutes before I bounce out of bed. And then, 'cause for me, you know, once I, Once I'm outta bed, it's just like things start going. So, so you just, I love that start to the day where I can take that deep breath. I can be, I can set an intention.

Mm-hmm.

Um, for the day, I can just make sure that I kind of feel my, myself and toes, fingers, and, and then kind of bookending that.

Mm-hmm.

Um, You know, getting into bed early enough that you're just not like head hits the pillow and you instantly fall asleep is, you know, get to bed. And this, I think, I think we are really, I know so many people who just are kind of running, running, running.

Right.

And so, I mean, by literally they are, I mean, they're practically asleep as they're head is hitting the pillow. And so, I mean, what would it look like to go to bed 5, 10, 15 minutes before you actually would like to be asleep? And so that you could just, you could read a little bit, you could listen to some music, you could just be with yourself. You could say thank you for the day that just passed.

I think the simplicity of what you're sharing and the applicability is what makes it really helpful for me right now. And as you were speaking, Kristin, I was thinking it's almost, there's this consciousness crisis that we are going through where, A, the corporate world has made us believe that if we take a 15-minute break, someone's going to die. I don't think I'm a neurosurgeon. I don't think I'm operating on someone's heart that if I take like a 20-minute break, someone's going to die. Even an F1 car deserves that pit stop, and if they don't, then they're going to get into an accident, right? So that's one. I think that's a mindset shift that needs to happen. The second in all you're sharing was that allow yourself to take a deep breath. I think we are not allowing ourselves because we are fearing that if I pause for 15 minutes, either something wrong is going to happen or someone's going to take over or something's going to fall apart. And I think that fear, Kristin, that fear is what's kind of limiting us right now. What are your thoughts about it?

Yeah, well, I think I love that you're recognizing that taking a breath is such a Again, I mean, and I'm not the only person saying this, and I didn't invent this idea. However, I will say it, the gift of taking a deep breath or a few of them strung together is so, it is a game changer, right?

Yeah.

And just our bodies, when we do get into stress, and it can even be, I mean, it can be good stress. Right? It can be excitement over different things, but there is that stress, and that stress could also be fear, both fear that's kind of manufactured in our self-talk or legitimate fear. It's so constricting, right? I mean, I just, I know those times when I am just holding myself so tightly. And part of that is often, you know, I'm holding my breath, right? And what that— unfortunately, what that does to us physiologically is it puts the body into strain, right? And so we end up having, I think, kind of this feedback loop where I really feel like for so many of us, our baseline around kind of stress or anxiety has been so elevated by the The constant noise, by this instant gratification loop that we're on, and by the stories that we have accepted that have been really told to us. And that's what happens with stories that you inherit or that you acquire along the way is that oftentimes they become so embedded, right?

Mm-hmm.

that they become our own stories. They become our own script.

Yeah.

And so we are less likely to see them as kind of a thought that's worth examining because we're like, well, okay, so I know this to be true. And it's like, well, no, you actually don't. This is not to confuse, I think, this this chatter for kind of the deep knowing that is something, you know, that for me is really happening throughout my body, right? Throughout my cells.

Mm-hmm.

Is that deep knowing is a— has a much more holistic feel to it than You have this chatter that claims to be the truth.

Yeah. Stories are also fascinating, right? Because either they've been told to us so many times that they become hard to let go of, or we have told them enough times about our own selves. What's been a story, Kristin, that you told yourself about yourself in the past that was the hardest to let go of? And how did you manage to let go of it?

Well, I would say, I mean, the fact that I am sitting here, um, sharing with you, uh, there was a story that I had, I, I think I feel like it's definitely a story that I had inherited, um, particularly from the women in my family. As well as one that was acquired by my kind of chaotic upbringing, which was— the story was, don't draw attention to yourself. Stay, you know, be as invisible or as small as you can be.

Mm-hmm.

And if you are going to be visible or You know, if you are going to be speaking, that, gosh, make sure that it's, that you're not rocking the boat, right? You make sure that you are, that you're behaving acceptably, right?

Mm-hmm.

And that, that was a story that, that stuck with me for I mean, I still have those waves of it, right? And because it was tied so— not only was it in some ways this survival skill, so to speak, for me as a little kid to kind of fly below the radar, but it got coupled with how lovable I was. Right. Or my sense of belonging.

Thank you for sharing. I love the openness and the thoughtfulness with what you're sharing. Something that I've struggled with is since I've moved countries from India to Australia, I've always thought that neither do I now belong to India, nor do I belong to Australia. And so I sense that I'm in a way losing my identity. And what I've realized through conversations with myself and with certain mentors is that, and this is kind of emerging right now over the last few months, is to amplify my story. And I've actually, Kristin, I think one thing that I'm recommending to our listeners as well here is that if you can come up with something like that, what you just shared, right, about your story. how you need to draw attention to yourself, don't do it, what's the right— like, these words amplify your story are like right now in front of me all the time, and they are a constant reminder that I'm not amplifying my story to bring someone else's down, but just to amplify my story, and that's independent.

Yeah, and I, I love that you're bringing— I, I love what you're saying there. It's, is so It's such an important point because my, you know, claiming my visibility is not at the expense of anyone else. And in fact, there are ways that my visibility can be helpful or could be possibly an example, right?

Yeah.

And I mean, just for starters, I have a daughter myself, right? And I don't want her to accept that story that I probably even passed on to her myself, you know, as I have had to, kind of emerge from this very limiting story, right? That, you know, and I think I do wanna, so I wanna highlight the fact that what you said, that it's, this is, you know, being ourselves and stepping into kind of the fullness of who we are. we are, yeah, is not at anyone else's expense, right? And I think too, just to have— because when you have this moment where you said, okay, or I'm saying, like, gosh, I don't need that story anymore around keeping myself small or invisible.

Mm-hmm.

That's not my story, right? It's when I first kind of gained more awareness around this and felt like I was ready to make that shift, claiming more of my voice, there was part of me that felt initially a little bit of anger from, from, you know, those who had kind of put that story on me, right? And what I know to be true is for so many of these inherited stories especially, they're— in most cases, I'm not in all, I can't speak to all cases, but I know that this was not given to me by the women in my family to—

Yeah.

Hurt me. This was actually, in their minds, a way of keeping me safe.

Yeah. Yeah, one phrase that's kind of poking me again and again in my head, and I had it again written on a piece of paper that I carried for years, was, stop playing small. Ask yourself how your playing small is serving the world. And I think I kept reflecting on that and realized that I don't have to be small for someone else to be large. We can all be large. It's an abundance that we are given. And it's really hard for the brain because the brain's so primitive to really fathom and to really embrace these ideas. But I think the more you listen to them, the more you experience them, the more you put them into practice, the more the shifts start to happen in how the brain starts to think and behave.

Yeah. And, but it is so, it is very, very hard because we are, not only does, is our brain very primitive around this, but there are, you know, we are taught, there's so many examples that are embedded into the ways that we are raised of You know, there is, there's a winner and there's a loser, right? I mean, there's the, the person that, that, you know, finishes on top and all the rest. And so we are, and, you know, and, and if, if that is the story that we are running within ourselves, then of course we're going to see examples, right, that That we're going to have that confirmation bias, right? We're going to be finding examples that are saying, see, this is how it is. You know, there isn't this, no, no, this infinite, you know, this world of infinite possibility. And is, you know, and I will say, you know, if you're willing to kind of, again, and this is why I think curiosity is such a vital companion to this whole journey of self-discovery and investigation around your stories is, I mean, get curious and challenge yourself and say, I'm going to find examples where there is kind of infinite possibility or that there is room for a multitude of ways of being and And not only just being, but thriving.

Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. I love the paradox of our conversation because I'm hearing the bikes roar every few minutes, which I'm just loving because what you and I are doing here, and Kristen, I've done about 80 episodes now. These are one of, like, this one's one of those episodes where we've like really slowed down both of ourselves to have this conversation. And then in the background are these big bikes that I'm pretty sure you can see out of your window. It's just— yeah.

Oh, yeah.

It's the perfect setting. It's just the perfect setting.

Yeah. And not only— I mean, just to give you the whole visual, it is— everyone is in their biker attire. So again, kind of this— at least this crowd is very— everything is so streamlined, right? You are dressed for speed. No friction. And I think about how that is kind of another byproduct of this attention economy, of this instant gratification, is that we have this ability to reduce friction in our lives by ordering everything online, right?

Right.

Or by Just listening to the songs that we want to listen to on our devices or watch the show that we want to watch. And gosh, I think that there's just such richness in the friction and the opportunity to have a conversation that's unexpected because you go to an actual store to buy—

Mm-hmm.

Groceries or to, you know, and there's really wonderful reasons why, um, in terms of for people who, you know, accessibility or their geography, you know, limits this. But I think for the majority of us, this, this, I think it's worth asking ourselves, Am I, or how am I, how am I kind of limiting my ability to have spontaneous interactions or moments in this quest for a frictionless life?

Yeah.

Yeah. And how might that be actually making my life smaller?

Yeah. I love that frictionless life. What is it doing to us? Such a perfect setting. And something that's kind of emerging as I'm like, as you're sharing this is I think it's just we are asking ourselves to have a life that we examine with the right rigor. You cannot be obsessed about it and you cannot be completely indifferent about it. So it's a beautiful setup. As we get to the end of our conversation today, Kristin, what I'm curious to now take you to is that we spoke about that 80-year-old self. So if that 80-year-old self from the future If that Kristin were to come to you right now and say, Kristin, this is my one piece of advice to you on how to lead the rest of your years on this planet, what would that 80-year-old say?

Oh, that 80-year-old would say to me to just remember to slow down. Right? When you are, you have that temptation to kind of fall into this urgency or chasing things, be really intentional about seeking wonder and awe in every single day.

I love that. I love that. So to everyone who's listening to Kristin and I and the bikes in the background for the last 45-odd minutes, just be intentional about seeking that wonder and awe in your daily life. Remember that your visibility will not come at the expense of someone else's. So go large, take that shot, do what you want to do and build a life, share a story that you want to share about yourself. The stories that you've inherited and the stories that you've told yourself, maybe they're not serving you right now. So choose which stories you want to let go of. Remember that to create that space, that quiet time, that slowness, all you need is 15 minutes of unscheduled time to take a deep breath, to grab a glass of water, to sit by the window and just look at bikes. Build some moments of awareness for yourself. You will be terrified to fail. You will be terrified of what's going to emerge in those moments of quiet, moments of awareness. awareness, but they're going to be worth it at the end. The art of busyness— it's an acceptable addiction of our modern society. And if you can let go of it, then that might help you slow down a little bit. And remember that we have a very noisy brain. There's noise on the inside and noise on the outside. On some days, you've got to shut that noise down to reflect on who you are and who you can be. Any final thoughts, Kristin, before we close?

Oh, thank you, Utkarsh. I've just, I've enjoyed this conversation so much. And I think the other thing is I do want to piggyback on your words of encouragement to go big and, you know, take that shot. And what I will say is, It may not turn out the way you think it is. There's no way that it's supposed to turn out. The way that it turns out is the way that it is meant to be for you. And so that is, you know, and that's part of the wonder and awe. So, so be willing to take those, be big and be willing to take kind of those big leaps. Without a set of expectations, right? And just allow your curiosity to be your companion.

Yeah. Amazing. To everyone who's listening to us at 50 minutes, that means that this was worth your time. Don't share it with anyone else until unless you feel that they're going to listen to it as well, until unless you feel that they need this conversation right now. If you're taking away anything, one word, just put that in the comments because Kristin and I are looking at the comments on YouTube, on Spotify, and wherever you are to see that this conversation that we had on this morning for me and evening for Kristin is worth your while. And finally, go big, do what you want to do, build a story that you will cherish. We'll put all the links through which you can reach out to Kristin, get all the resources from her. into the show notes. Enjoy them. Reach out to Kristin. And until next time, this is Kristin and Anutkash signing off.