Feeling Lost in Life? Watch This Before You Give Up

There are many wars that are happening right now in the world, but the most important war that's happening right now is not on the battlefield. It is a war right within you.

Fail again and again and keep getting up, and it will get easier.

This is a man who spent 20 years in Special Forces, and then he left it all, not because he failed at it, but because staying would have destroyed him.

You just keep going. You just, you just keep going. And I found that I, I burned out. I burned out to the point where I was having an negative impact on, on my family and personal relationships.

And now he's fighting a different war, a war to protect the wild, a war to protect the only planet that we have.

We are collectively so distracted. We spend a lot of time in our heads and we're distracted.

And that, my friend, is the biggest problem. Not the world that we live in, but how we're living in it. Let's begin. Welcome, Michael. Looking forward to our conversation today.

Utkarsh, it's wonderful to be here. It's so, so fantastic to be joining you today. And being able to share my journey with you and your listeners.

Amazing. I appreciate that. And we start the journey, Michael, with that 8-year-old little kid, that 8-year-old Michael as a little boy, wherever you were growing up. If that 8-year-old Michael comes and meets you right now at this moment, what kind of a conversation do you think will emerge between the two of you?

He's coming to me and then we're going to send him back.

I'm intrigued. I'm intrigued.

Look, I mean, I would tell him first and foremost to continue having fun. Have fun. Take calculated risks. Don't be afraid to fail. I know that in my past there are certain things that— I can't think of anything specific now, but there are things that I could have done but I didn't because I was afraid of danger or ridicule or whatever it was that prevented me from doing that. I would tell myself to not worry about those things and to just put myself out there, take calculated risks, because it's through these failures that we learn and that we grow. I would tell him to continue to dream big, that life is amazing. This world is filled with amazing people, places, and things, and to just be open to whatever the world has to offer. I think I would be remiss if I didn't encourage myself to do well in school. I think for many students, for many young, for many young children, unless they are pushed by their parents to do well in school, it can be challenging. And I think it was no different for me. But I would encourage myself to focus on the education because of the opportunities that education provides that may not be visible for many, many years to come that Opportunities are absolutely there. And the last piece of advice I would give myself before sending me back to 1985 is that when I'm able to invest in Apple—

I love that. Did not expect that coming. Did not expect that coming. We've done about 70 episodes, Michael, and every time I ask this question, I reflect how, how simple life is and how complicated we have made it. How simple it is to not be fearful, how simple it is to not fear failure, how simple it is to be curious and open to the beauty of the world and dream big. And we still overcomplicate it and we make it so complex. What are your thoughts on that?

We absolutely do. I think part of it is to piggyback off of a previous guest you had. I apologize, I don't remember their name, but they talked about how we live within a rigid structure of society, paraphrasing a little bit, and that we try to find our place within these rules that we have set for ourselves. And I think that that is a limiting factor. It can be a limiting factor for us. You know, one of the things that I focus on with the work that I do is helping people recognize confirmation bias. One of the tenets of confirmation bias is your family upbringing. So a lot of times we as children, as we as young adults, look to what we see as right based off of The communities that we, that we spend our time in, the families that we grow up with and around. And, and I feel that those kind of shape some of the limitations that, that we unconsciously put on ourselves. And it's almost like you have to really train yourself to take a step back and step out of that, that mold to just open up your perspectives.

That's so true. That's what you just shared. I want to kind of reemphasize that we unconsciously put some limitations on ourselves. And I think, I think this, this, there's so much power that we can dissect in this statement. I'm curious though, that 8-year-old Michael who wanted to invest in Apple and, uh, and go on that journey, when did this idea of getting into the special forces, when this idea of— when— yeah, I mean, because serving in, in the military or special forces, I think that's a big leap which I've, I've never, never— it never came to my soul or my heart that I would do that for my country. So How did that happen for you?

I was a child of the '80s. I grew up like many young kids in a household where both parents were working. So I ended up entertaining myself a lot with watching movies, and I watched a lot of action movies. And one of the, one of the main protagonists in all these action movies is, is, is the hero, the Green Beret. And there's like this, this almost mythic ideal of what a Green Beret is, that this is an individual who's unstoppable, that can do And I wanted to be a Green Beret for a long time, uh, when I was a kid. Now, to be fair, as a young adult, this, this passion, obsession, whatever you want to call it, um, it— I went through my own little sine wave where I wanted to do it, and then I wanted to do something else, and I wanted to do it again, and I want to do something else. And I think that's normal. For most kids, the push for me to follow this this dream, this goal came after 9/11, a day that for many young at the time, young adults like myself at the time had a profound impact to those in the United States. I felt helpless, and I felt that I needed to do something. And these this idea of what can we do? To make a difference. To— I don't know if— I know there's some folks that signed up for revenge, if you want to call it that. I don't know. I certainly wasn't one of those, but I wanted to make a difference and I wanted to push myself to be the best that I could be. And for me, the selling point ultimately was, as I was pondering this after 9/11, there was an article about the Green Berets serving in Afghanistan. And there was very specifically a photograph of a young Green Beret. He was wearing a mixed uniform, which means he was wearing a civilian flannel t-shirt or a flannel shirt. He had long hair and a beard. He had civilian boots on and he had military boots on— excuse me, military pants on. So this guy, the ultimate professional in my eyes, Was a mismatch of crazy uniforms, but it was what he was doing that really stuck with me. He was administering first aid to a child, to an Afghan child. Circumstances of that, I don't remember, but I just remember thinking, I want to do something where I can make a difference. And it wasn't long after that that I went to the recruiting station and I said, I want to do this. And I signed up for a program that allows you to go straight from the street to try out for Special Forces. And I was very fortunate that That I made it through and had a, had a 20-year-long career in Special Forces.

Yeah.

Now, what I will say is what it was versus what it became. What it was was a childhood dream, perhaps part of an ego of a young man to prove himself. And what it became was a 20-year career where I met and worked with amazing partners and allies from different nations. I met just people that I would come across with, and I would see the generosity of these communities that I interacted with. I got to visit amazing places. Timbuktu is a real place, and I was fortunate enough to, to have gone there. And I don't know if I would have been able to do that if it wasn't for this job. Now, certainly, yes, I could have gone there But not somebody paying me to go there, to do work and to make a difference. So I count myself very fortunate at the growth that I've experienced over this 20-year career. And I'm certainly not the same person that I was when I started the journey.

What changed? And how I want you to think about that, Michael, is that if you were to squeeze out in this moment, 3 things for us that became like your mental models during that 20-year Journey, what changed?

I lost a sense of naivete about the world. As an American, we can be very egotistical to what we think the world is, and I, I learned very quickly that I didn't know as much as I thought I knew. I also learned that different cultures and values and foods and all the things in between can be absolutely amazing, that just being open to these differences from from what I was accustomed to helped me to grow as a person and to think more critically about what it is that I thought I knew. And finally, I think that this career helped me to become more resilient. And that's why I focus so much on resiliency with what I do now, is to help others build that resiliency. Because while what I do focuses primarily on resiliency in the context of personal safety, I think resiliency as a whole helps us in our everyday lives with everything that we do. As we started our conversation, right before we actually started the interview, you asked me about my week and I shared that it was a roller coaster. I think there, there was a time where some of the challenges that I, that I had to deal with this week, where there was no life or death situation, would have been a challenge if I didn't have the resiliency that I've developed from my time in the service.

The word resilience, you know, it can be— it's almost like it's a very multifaceted word and it could have so many different dimensions and definitions to it. If, Michael, you were to explain this to that 8-year-old kid who you just met and sent back, how would you define this word resilience or resiliency to that, that little kid?

Fail again and again and keep getting up, and it will get easier. I mean, it's— that's, that's the simplest way that I could describe it. But it's putting yourself out there. It's embracing discomfort. And when you embrace discomfort, the reason why I use failure is in a child's eyes, Often something can be scary and you feel there is a fear of failure. So putting into the context of what I think I would have understood, I would have just said, don't be afraid to fail over and over again to help build this resiliency so that you can see that you are capable of more, that you are capable of bouncing back better than you were before.

And here's my challenge to that, and I'd love for you to help me understand it fully. And I put myself in the shoes of the listeners because I feel like they might have questions right now which I can ask on their behalf, which would make sense to them. So this idea of failing, Michael, it's such a— it's something that's inevitable, right? J.K. Rowling has spoken about it. Thought leaders from across the world have spoken about it. People, I think, publish their failure resumes and they've spoken about it. But those are like a handful, right? A million people who've maybe succeeded, or 10,000 people who've succeeded in a way where they can speak about their failures. But for someone who's 25 years old, they've just gotten out of college. They've been applying for jobs back again, back again, back again, and they're not getting it. And they feel like, fuck, I'm failing. Someday they feel like, I don't want resilience. I just want a job. Like, how do you explain it to them what they're going through and what the next step there is?

You know, in the context of Special Forces, I had an instructor early on when we were very green. And he would tell us, gentlemen, I know you want this, but it's not for everyone. I don't know how else to put it. I think that we subject ourselves to a lot of different stressors. You mentioned specifically education. If I wanted to work in the finance field and got a degree in banking, became a CPA, and I just couldn't get a job, it might be bigger than— it might Even though you dedicated so much time and energy to it, that might not be what life has in store for you. You just gotta be open to dealing with that potential failure and pivoting to something else. And I can tell you from my own experience, I didn't have a backup plan.

Hmm.

I was gonna be successful no matter what. And I don't know if me as a young 25-year-old Going through this Special Forces training, hit an obstacle where it was the end of the line, whether I didn't meet an academic requirement or I had a physical ailment or injury that prevented me from moving forward. I didn't have a plan B. And I think that's true for many young adults. So I totally understand that. And I don't expect young adults to have an answer to that. But what I will say is that by having a robust base of resiliency, you'll be able to deal with not achieving or not getting to that goal that maybe you set for yourself and being able to pivot sooner.

And so this idea of resiliency, if someone's starting that journey and wants to become better on this journey, how do they— like, is there a model, Michael, that you can share? Is there something that you can, like, almost like a step-by-step that you can share? How do you— like, let me give a— let me compare it to something. You go to the gym, right? You want to work on your chest, your abdominals. You pick up those exercises. Now, if resiliency is a muscle that you want to build, how do you make that happen?

Well, I can tell you first off, you will start off like Kung Fu Panda at level zero.

Love it. Great. Yeah.

But that's okay, and you're gonna struggle. But the key is to put yourself out there. And as I would have told my 8-year-old self, seek and embrace discomfort. Do things that you're uncomfortable with doing so that you can see you actually can do these things. I see that that is the first step towards building resiliency. A lot of it then, then that leads into side quests, of course, eating better, sleeping more. You mentioned working out as, as what would that look like? Finding ways to build what I've termed holistic resiliency. Which is focusing on your mental, your mental agility and your strength, your physical health, and just being present.

There's so many beautiful aspects of that, right? That you, you have to develop all these frontiers. And the first step, you said— love that— that you start at level 0 like Kung Fu Panda, and then you start to put yourself out there, start to push yourself out of that comfort zone, and that's where the growth starts to happen. When you decided that it was time to leave the Special Forces, that would have been a Like 20 years. That would have been a big identity shift, Michael. So what did you gain in that moment that you still carry with yourself?

You know, when it's time to leave. I mean, bottom line, you know, when it's time to leave. And I knew it was time for me to leave. I knew that the job had become too emotionally invested. I'd become too emotionally invested in the job and that it started to have a significant impact on my mental health and mental well-being. Because one of the things that we focused on in Special Forces is that you just keep pushing forward and finding a solution, that you just keep going. You just keep going. And I found that I burned out. I burned out to the point where it was having a negative impact on my family and personal relationships. And I just, it was time to go. That was not an easy decision for me to make. Because I really loved the job, but I knew that it was, it was, it was killing me. So I had to, I had to take a step back. I had to leave.

Yeah. And I think you said it really seamlessly, but that statement, you know, it's time to leave. I think there's, there's so much that's, there's so many layers to that, that single statement.

It took a lot of self-reflection.

Yeah.

My younger self probably wouldn't have, which is again why I stuck around as long as I did. I probably could have tapped out years before, but then you start making excuses like, oh, it's just a couple more years and then I'll get retirement. Yeah. But I knew at 20 it was, it was time.

And then how did this next stage arrive for you? Like when you started, I think Nomad International, like what was, what was the, what are you pursuing right now that you feel is, is making you feel that sense of purpose and sense of pursuing something that's larger than you?

I think we live on an amazing planet. And I think that this planet is filled with, as I already mentioned, amazing places and creatures on this planet. And I think that this planet is worth protecting. No politics at all. Just, I really think that we just need to do a better job of protecting this planet. I'm not, I'm not a biologist. I don't know how to care for animals, but I know how to help those that take care of animals protect themselves. And that's where I want to focus my, my energy is to help industries that are focused on protecting the wild spaces of this world, of this planet, to help keep them safe so that they not only are able to protect the planet but thrive and go home to spend time with their families as well.

Yeah, I love that. Just have this planet and we're exploring outer space and we're exploring everything else beyond, but this planet has has been such a, such a container of human spirit and human potential and the way we have thrived over the last thousands and thousands and thousands of years. And so when you do that work, Michael, what is it that you do that, that supports these organizations?

I provide specialized training. So essentially 2 buckets of the type of training that I provide, or the services that I provide. The first is to work with wildlife conservation areas to do comprehensive security audits of the physical security of their property, essentially just making sure that people don't come in that they don't want to have come in. And then the second is to help build resilient teams that have increased situational awareness, that are able to thrive in these challenging environments, to recognize interpersonal challenges. You know, a lot of the work that I did when I was in the service involved the intelligence community. And in the intelligence community, when you're dealing with people, I mean, that's reading a human, reading a human being and interacting with a human being isn't always what you see at the surface. There can be a lot of things going on behind the scenes. So what I try to focus on is helping individuals and teams recognize if people are trying to exploit your kindness, your own curiosity for their Nefarious purposes.

Hmm. Interesting. You know, as I was listening to you right now, I was thinking that this whole idea of protecting our planet seems such a no-brainer, right? Because of what you and I are speaking about. But it seems that all of us human beings have become so, so concerned about our own protecting our own territories, our own boundaries, and yet we don't in a beautiful, strong way come together to protect the ecosystems. What's, what's missing there?

I think that many of us are overwhelmed with life and we're distracted. We are, we are collectively so distracted, at least in the Western world. And I can talk about places that I've visited in the Western world, whether it's Europe or, or parts of Asia or, or the United States. We spend a lot of time in our heads and we're distracted and We are focused on us, on our immediate family. Now, there's nothing wrong with that, but I feel like we— I certainly think we can do more. And moving home to Hawaii, I think, was the best decision that I could make because in Hawaii, it's rooted in the culture here to take care of the land, the seas, to help maintain the delicate balance that exists between the people that live here and the land that we share it with.

Yeah.

And even in a place like this, I mean, we struggle with it. I think that's normal. And again, I think we struggle because we're just distracted. Whether it's our handsets that we're stuck with, or if we're just stuck inside our heads daydreaming or pontificating, we are not present. And I think if we could find a way to be more present, we would be more open to seeing the world around us And taking in the amazing thing that is planet Earth and will be more open to taking care of these places.

Yeah.

Maybe oversimplistic, but I think that we just aren't present enough. And I think that if we just remove distractions, it would be a game changer for us, full stop. I'll give you an example of this distraction, and I, and I know that I'm guilty of it sometimes too. When you're driving in your car and Whether it's to go from home to a grocery store or to wherever you're going, I'm certainly not the only one who ever got to their destination and thought, how did I get here? Like, I don't remember stopping. I don't remember using my blinkers. I obviously didn't get in an accident, but I was just on autopilot because I was not present. So I try to make a concerted effort to be present as much as possible because I see so much of the world around me when I, when I am that way. And I know others would as well.

So, so we are as humanity collectively distracted. We spend a lot of time on us and on our families, which is absolutely, as you're saying, it's not wrong. But, but even in that, it seems that we are not present. We are moving on this autopilot mode, which is not serving us. How does one recognize that, Michael? Because sometimes, like, I like your idea of going on a drive and thinking like, when did I get here? And it happens to the best of us. But what other symptoms do you see that tell us that, oh, human being, you're on autopilot?

People, how people interact with each other. It's whether it's just generic greetings to each other or unconsciously just sitting with your friends, colleagues, whoever it is in public. And I see this quite a bit. They're sitting together as close as you and I may be to your audience. I mean, we're literally right next to each other. You'll see folks that close to each other in public on their phones or completely distracted, not interacting with each other. They're, they're in the same place, but they're not in the same space.

Yeah, they're in the same place, but not in the same space. I think it's deep-rooted and it comes from a very deep place, Michael, because something similar is happening between us and nature then. Because we're— it's not that we don't know that there's no planet B, but it's that we're so disconnected from it and so engrossed in our own wants and desires and needs that we don't feel connected to this, this, this super important, beautiful thing that we have around us all the time.

I mean, while I can't cite the specific studies, certainly there have been studies done that show that your mood improves when you spend time in nature. It increases your overall awareness when you spend time in nature.

Yeah.

And you open yourself to listen. It increases your intuition. When you spend time in nature, when you open yourself, the value of spending time in nature can't be overstated. And I try to do it as much as I can.

How did that journey happen for you from protecting wildlife or from the military missions to that protecting wildlife? Like, I feel like, yeah, how did that journey happen for you?

I love animals. As I mentioned already, I've always loved animals. During my time in the service, I had a few opportunities to work in countries in Africa Where I could see animals in their natural habitat and animals in confined spaces. And these experiences had a profound impact on me. And I also had an opportunity to support a mission where I was part of a team that was asked to support a counter-poaching effort in Africa because elephants were being unfortunately slaughtered for their ivory tusks to fund transnational terrorism. That's why the military was involved, because there was a, there was a, as they call, a nexus to terrorism. But for me, it was really eye-opening and really the start for me to try to learn more about, you know, you really can do a lot of good. The wildlife conservation industry is very complex, can be very political, but the— so can any job, so can any industry. But I think it's a worthwhile endeavor. And that particular event Caused me to research wildlife conservation more, look into who the players are in the wildlife industry, and reach out to a few of them.

Hmm.

And while I still was in the service for a few more years, I mean, I maintained contact with them throughout, followed their journey, and we always discussed ways that I could potentially step in to help them with, with the skills that, that I bring to bear. After I retired, an opportunity presented itself where I could do exactly that. And I mean, it was, it was really a no-brainer. It was a no-brainer.

Thank you for sharing that. I'm still thinking about what you just said a few minutes ago, right? That people are still in the same place, but not the same space. And how being in this autopilot mode is ruining relationships, is ruining how we treat each other, how we treat nature, and how we treat even ourselves, Michael, even ourselves.

Yep. 100% agree. Yeah, I'm certainly not perfect. I am certainly not perfect. I will admit that, you know, for— after I got out of the service for a while, I got really addicted to my phone and I would just be doom scrolling for hours. And I would be on Facebook or Instagram or any one of these social media apps. I'm not doing anything of value. Hmm. Maybe I started with wanting to look at something of value, but by the end of it, I don't even remember what I was doing on there. So for me, I started making a conscious decision about, look, I know that this is a problem for me and I know that I need to fix it. And sometimes it started with a small fix. Like for me, it started with, I'm no longer gonna have my phone next to my bed anymore. It's gonna be in a completely different room so that it's not the first thing that I look at. In the morning, and it's certainly not going to be the last thing I look at before I settle down to go to sleep. And there's nothing that I do that is so important that I need to have my phone next to me in the, in the middle of the night. I then took it a step further to remove or to temporarily suspend my, my own social media accounts just because I knew it wasn't serving me, just, just to force that break. Being realistic about it, I oftentimes would go back and I would re-download the app to go back on there to look at stuff. But then when I was done, I was like, okay, that was— I'm done. And I would just delete it again.

Yeah.

Yeah. I'm, I'm, again, I, I don't have social media on my, on my, uh, cell phone because I know that it doesn't, it doesn't serve me. Uh, yeah. So I think all of us have it within us to recognize these these things that— these, they're really vices that don't serve us, but, but we don't all have the strength or discipline to make a clean break from it. And then I think that's okay. I mean, there's a reason why programs like Alcoholics Anonymous is a thing, because certain things have addicting, you know, attributes that makes it difficult to put it down. And I think that social media or just using your phone is one of those things.

100%.

That some people can't do it on their own and need help with it. It's okay. It's totally okay.

I mean, these companies—

You have to recognize it.

Correct.

You have to recognize it.

It starts with that awareness because these companies are paying engineers millions and millions of dollars to keep us hooked onto the devices. And and yes, the irony is such, Michael, that even if people find this podcast, they're going to find it on one of these devices. There's there's no other way. There's no other way.

That's right. Well, this is the only one that they need to watch.

I agree with that. I hundred percent agree with that, and all the other episodes on this podcast. As we come to that, yeah, as we come to a beautiful closure to this conversation, Michael, if now we go into the future and the eighty-year-old Michael comes to you right now in this moment. And has this one piece of advice for you. What do you think that 80-year-old is is telling you?

First of all, he would scold me for not investing in Apple.

Me too. I'm going to think about that.

Yeah, no, but I I think that at 80 years old, what I can share is a bit of perspective to to my answer. After getting out of the military, I think many folks struggle with. Finding purpose and meaning. Now, yes, I love working with animals. Nomad International is a passion project for me, but I still struggled with finding purpose, finding meaning, finding the motivation and discipline to keep doing the things that I did when I was in the service. So I kind of fell off the bandwagon a little bit with, with diet, with exercise, with my health in general, and I realized that that was unsustainable for me. And I started to read more about the importance of a healthier lifestyle and staying active. Cut out alcohol altogether. I used to drink, I think when I was in the service, I think many service members drink more than their fair share. And I know I did. And one year, both my wife and I decided that we were just done. Don't drink anymore at all. And I cut that out of my, my life to live a more healthy lifestyle. But I also started being more active and working towards goals, physical goals, to help keep me on track with, with staying fit for life. Functional fitness. So I did a marathon in December.

Congratulations.

Thank you. I didn't break any speed records by any, any means. But it was a huge accomplishment for me because it forced me to not only have the motivation to do that, but to have the discipline to follow through on a plan. And I'm using this same discipline now to help prepare me for my first triathlon, which I'll participate in on my 50th birthday this May. And then I'm already signed up for the next marathon. All this is to say, you asked me about my 80-year-old self. My 80-year-old self would tell me, don't forget what you started. I'm going to thank you. for it, that I'm still going to be up and walking around and being fit and keeping my mind strong and occupied and learning new things and to keep seeking or embracing this discomfort that I've espoused not only to my 8-year-old self, but now my 80-year-old self is reminding me like, don't stop, keep doing that.

Love it. Love it. To everyone who's still with us about 45 minutes in this podcast, let's listen to that 8-year-old Michael's advice because, yeah, don't forget what you've started and your 8-year-old self will thank you for it. Keep seeking out discomfort because that's what helps you grow. And if you're with someone right now, Talking to them, having dinner with them. Remember, you just don't have to be in the same place with them, but you also need to be in the same space with them. What's also important is that our presence is super critical, is golden. It's just a beautiful gift that we can give each other. And so be present to yourself, to people around you, and to nature, because that's how we collectively move from being distracted to being present. And I think it's a, it's a really important thing to do. When you know it's time to leave, leave a room, leave a relationship, leave a job, leave anything, you know it's time, act on it. Please act on it. Resilience, you will start at the Kung Fu Panda level, level 0. But once you put yourself out there, once you push yourself out of that comfort zone, step by step, you will develop and you will gain it. And in the most simplest form, Resilience is that you will fail and you will fail again and again, but you keep getting better. You keep making it easier for you and keep getting up again and fight that battle that's worth fighting. Finally, you're unconsciously putting some limits on yourself. Sit with yourself, find out where these, these limitations are coming from, and you get to break them. And to that 8-year-old Michael who started this journey for us, continue to dream big. Don't fear failure. And have fun. Take those calculated risks and be open to what this beautiful world has to offer for us. Michael, it's been such a pleasure. And to everyone who wants to get in touch with Michael, all the links will be in the show notes. Michael, just thank you for your presence today.

Thank you so much. It was— I really had a blast. Of course, you never know what direction a conversation like this is going to go, but I've been really— I was really looking forward to this conversation, and I'm so happy for how this conversation turned out.

Thank you.

Thank you for, for having me.

Absolutely. Appreciate your presence here. And to you, to everyone who's listening on YouTube, put something in the comments because Michael and I are listening to you and reading your comments. But don't share this episode with all your community, with everyone in your network, because not everyone's ready for these conversations. And if you feel there's someone who's going to have fun, who's going to enjoy this, who's going to dive deep with Michael and me and spend these 45 minutes, then share it with them and let them know that it's going to be a conversation worth listening to. If you're on a podcast platform, that's the only way. You've got to appease to the algorithms because, as Michael and I spoke about it, this is the only podcast that's worth listening to. This is Michael and Utkarsh signing off. Bye.