The Human Philosophy Behind Gary Vee's Leadership — Straight From His Team

Today's guest is someone who leads with heart, quite literally. Claude Silver is the world's first Chief Heart Officer at VaynerMedia, working alongside Gary Vaynerchuk to build a culture rooted in empathy.

Please welcome Gary Vaynerchuk.

Trust and belonging. She's a coach, a mentor, and a changemaker who believes that our worth isn't earned, it's inherent. Please welcome The incredible Claude Silver.

In a world that celebrates hustle, today I have the Chief Heart Officer of VaynerMedia.

We are so judgmental about ourselves, so much bias about the world, about others, about difference. I feel like that judgment leads to such shame, such silence. You end up silencing yourself.

Let me do a fanboy moment for a second. There's a screen on my phone. That actually shows Gary and Ankur. These are 2 people who I feel like the mentors that I have, who I can listen to the content anytime and gain so much for.

And so I said to him, you know, thank you so much for this opportunity. I love this place. You're the best. But I do not want to work in advertising. And Gary said, what do you want to do? And I said, I only care about the people here. I care about the heartbeat. And that's how we came to it. I don't know if this was 30 years ago, 20 years ago. It was said that people are your greatest asset. People are not an asset though. People are the company. You have no company, to your point. You have nothing without a human being.

But in this world of where there's like a stark competition happening between artificial intelligence and human intelligence, how are you as coach, as the author, as the Chief Heart Officer, as everything, how are you seeing this, uh, this play out in the real world?

It can be your therapist, it can be your coach, It can give you advice, but it will never be able to reach out and look in your eyes and say, "I believe in you. I got this." I hope the human touch never leaves. We need it. We just do. What a wonderful world it is if we can be in this world, be present in this world. Every single person deserves to bloom and blossom, and that means you, and that means. getting to know yourself, like get to know yourself so that others can get to know the real you.

In a world that celebrates hustle, today I have the Chief Heart Officer of VaynerMedia. And the first time I texted or messaged Claude on LinkedIn was July 6th. And it's October 10th and 11th, our time that we're recording this. And I was telling Claude that everything has a time. And today was the perfect moment for us to have this conversation. Welcome to the podcast, Claude.

Thank you. Thank you so much. Beautiful to be here with you today.

Looking forward to this conversation. And Claude, the hypothesis is that we'll today speak about what does it mean to be Chief Heart Officer and putting humans first? What does it mean to be yourself at first? And I'm going to come in from a listener's perspective where I feel I want to be like the devil's advocate to all the ideas that you and I will speak about so that we can pressure test them and see what the user can take away today. Amazing.

I'm ready.

Amazing. Looking forward to it. The first question, Claude, that we start the conversation with is that if that 8-year-old little girl, Claude, growing up wherever Claude was, if that 8-year-old girl were to come and meet you right now, what kind of a conversation will emerge between the two of you?

First, I would embrace her with such a hug, so much warmth. And I would first, you know, my hands on my heart as I even say this, I would first put my hand on her shoulder and say, you know what, it's gonna be okay. You got this. And I got you. I'm gonna be with you. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna leave you. And I think that 18-year-old girl really could have used that support, that unconditional support, that like, it's gonna get bumpy here, but I'm gonna be with you and don't, you know, don't let me go. Don't let me go.

Don't let me go. I love the intensity of that embrace. This unconditional support, why is it so hard to give this unconditional support to self and to each other in this world?

We're so judgmental. We are so judgmental about ourselves, so much bias about the world, about others, about difference. I feel like that judgment leads to such shame, such, um, silence. You end up silencing yourself. You end up going inward and feeling as though you don't belong. You know, where, where should I go? What should I do? Who should I, who should I be in this world? If not that, if I'm not doing it right, who should I be?

Yeah. And belongingness, I think, is something all of us crave, right?

Oh my gosh. We're wired. We're all wired. Human beings, we're wired to belong. We're wired to belong to one another in community and to be together. I think from a very deep cellular place, inside, we have that craving. And as we know, newborns, and their mom, that first immediate touch is right here, which is all about belonging and bonding. And it's the oxytocin that's created with the newborn and the birth mother that creates that safety. I'm safe here. I'm bonded to you. You got me. I got you.

You got me. I got you. As you said that, it's so poetic, this expression of you got me and I got you. And as you're saying this, What's running in my head is, and I've read the book, and to whoever is listening, get the book. It's a beautiful book, Be Yourself at Work. Claude, you say there's some somewhere in the initial part of the book that what is the song that's playing in your head? And what's the song that's playing in Claude's head right now? Oops, sorry for this quick break. But I just want to remind you, I have lived life by these 5 values of excellence, discipline, freedom, growth, and love. To help you all live through these values that you want to choose for yourself and build a life that's worth living, build a life that gives you joy and fulfillment, we have built the Ignite Life Journal. If you're someone who's seeking self-development, personal growth, and mastery, then the journal is a great companion for you. It's available across the world on Amazon, has about 180 pages of exercises, activities, questions that you can answer and gain so much by these dialogues that you have with yourself. If you're seeking something like this, then go to Amazon, click on Ignite Life Journal, and buy it right now. Now, let's dive back into this mindset, this conversation that we were having with our podcast guest.

Oh my gosh, that's a really good question. It's funny, sometimes I don't stop to listen to it. The one that is playing in my head right now is The Killers, All These Things I've Done. And the part I was singing actually is, I've got soul, but I'm not a soldier. He keeps on going, I've got soul, but I'm not a soldier. I'm not gonna sing it for you. Absolutely not. But all these things that I have done, I really, I don't know how it popped into my head because I haven't listened to that song in probably a year, but it's there.

I think it's a very interesting question and wherever this conversation started, I don't exactly remember the reference of the book, but Just to pause and ask yourself what song is playing in your head is such a powerful question because it just tells what the state of mind is, right? How do you use this in your weekly, monthly— is there a ritual that you go back to asking, what's the song playing in my head right now?

Well, it's funny that you ask that. So I don't— when I'm working with people and coaching them, it's not the song I'm asking for. I say, what is that negative voice saying to you? And that's when I'm working through an imposter syndrome with them. So as we know, I don't know how this happens, but unfortunately we usually have a negative talk track up here. Many of us do. I'm not enough. I'm not smart. I'm not tall enough. I'm not pretty enough. And it's on repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. So when I ask someone who I can see is in somewhat of pain, struggling, what is that voice saying to you right now? Right now, what is that voice saying? And they will tell me, I'm not smart enough to be here, or XXX. And that's where we can start. That's exactly where we can start the conversation. And it's the same thing as the song. I equated the song that day when I had this When I had this negative song in my head, I was in a very, very bad place emotionally, physically. I was doing something extremely challenging and I didn't want to be there. And so I had a very dark song in my head, a Nine Inch Nails song. That song was like a mantra for me. And I think that And everything else that I was made up of was preventing me from breaking through, preventing me from letting go of this sabotaging way I had, quite frankly. And a lot of us in adolescence, we go through some hard times. It's a real funky time emotionally, hormonally. But that's really how it came about, which is the Outward Bound instructor came to me and she just looked right at me in my eyes and she said, what is going on in your head? And I responded to her very literally, which is, well, I'm singing the song by Nine Inch Nails, Head Like a Hole, black is your soul, I'd rather die than give you control. I was crying. And that's when she said, you better get another song in your head.

Such a powerful reframing, right? And how you connected that to the negative sabotage, the The distortions that the brain's presenting to us and to shift them into a positive frame. To the listeners, I think this is a great moment to just kind of pause. And I always tell Claude that if you're listening to a podcast and you really want it to do anything for you, you got to have a notepad because by the end of the hour, you'll not remember anything. And so I think the invitation here is like, what's the song that's playing in your head right now? And if that needs to change, what do you want to change it to?

I think that's a good, I really think it's such a good prompt for people and knowing how you just said it and how I just say it, we say it with love, not with shame, not with judgment. What is the song that you're playing in your head? Just write it down for a second.

Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. And be nonjudgmental to yourself as well, I think, in that moment, because that's going to be hard.

Please. Yeah. Because even when you asked me what song was in my head and I have it, I thought, Oh gosh, what does that song say about me? And then I said, oh, forget it. It's just a song. It's just a song.

Yeah. And now with the ease with which you can change songs, like maybe 20 years ago, you had to change cassettes, change sides, find the song. Now you just need to click a button and change the song. Please.

Yeah. You can think of any song in the world to just change to.

Amazing. From there, the journey began. And the next moment before we dive into like, what does it mean to be yourself at work? Is that moment when you were working with Gary and Gary Vee? Let me do a fanboy moment for a second. So there's a there's a screen on my phone that actually shows Gary and Ankur. These are two people who I feel like they're like the mentors that I have, who I can listen to the content anytime and gain so much for. So this is a fanboy moment to Ankur Bari and Gary Vee.

Love it, love it, love it.

Yeah, but that moment you left and you came back as the Chief Heart Officer and that title did not, it was not there. What happened there? Like if I'm a fly on the wall on that day, that week, those conversations, what was going on in your mind and in those conversations?

Yeah. Well, I'll back up. So almost 9 months before we had that conversation, I told him that I was no longer interested in working in advertising. So he had hired me to run a very large piece of business because that's what I had done for so long. And I realized that I wasn't getting any passion out of it anymore. It didn't matter to me if this was blue, green, cursive, it didn't matter. Matters to a lot of people, but it didn't matter to me. But what mattered to me was the team. And so I said to him, You know, thank you so much for this opportunity. I love this place. You're the best, but I do not wanna work in advertising. And Gary said, what do you wanna do? And I said, I only care about the people here. I care about the heartbeat. And that's how we came to it.

The heartbeat.

The heartbeat. And I ended up resigning 6 months later. I was just there, I was done. And I found my backfill. And he would tell you right now that as I'm resigning to him, he's thinking, how am I going to bring her into this company? So 3 months after that, we had breakfast and that's when he said, oh, you're coming back as Chief Heart Officer. And it made all the sense in the world. Heartbeat, heartbeat. To me, heartbeat, that is the The red thread that is the emotional barometer that goes through every single human being that creates the culture. That's the vibe. That's the doing, the living inside of a culture. And I've actually never articulated it just like that, but it's living and breathing.

Yeah.

Yeah. And what I think I love about Just this idea of being the Chief Heart Officer. For an organization, the people are the heart. Like, what is an organization without the people?

Well, you know, thank you. Yes. Remember back in the day, and I don't know if this was 30 years ago, 20 years ago, it was said that people are your greatest asset. People are not an asset though. People are the company. You have no company. To your point, you have nothing without a human being. And this human being, we have a heartbeat. This is our central operating system. And we, in the company, we are the central operating system. And so, you know, it makes sense to me in my little funny head, but the most important thing is to know and to see people as people, as humans. Not as numbers, employees, assets, as living, breathing humans. And I don't think it should be that difficult. That's the thing.

I was about to say that. I was about to say that because in this, and I think there are a lot of people and we cannot overgeneralize towards any of the insights and the vision that we carry, but there are a lot of people who feel people are hard the heartbeat. And there are a lot of people who feel the right opposite, where they feel like people are not important and they don't find the sense of belonging. They don't find that people need to be taken care of and all of that. And I'm digressing a little bit before I come back to my path. But in this world of where there's like a stark competition happening between artificial intelligence and human intelligence, Yeah. how are you as, as As a coach, as the author, as the Chief Heart Officer, as everything, how are you seeing this play out in the real world?

Yeah, AI is fantastic. It's the wild, wild west. It is going to take us beyond our wildest imagination, whether or not that's through efficiency, time saved, energy saved, creative, you name it. But AI will never be able to do this. I got you and you got this. Ever, ever, ever. It can be your therapist, it can be your coach, it can give you advice, but it will never be able to reach out and look in your eyes and say, I believe in you. I got this. You got this. And that's at least what I see for the foreseeable future. We'll see what happens in 20 years, but I hope the human touch never leaves. We need it. We just do.

Yeah. What would we be without it?

Robots. You know, doot doot doot doot doot. We'd be like R2-D2 or C-3PO in the Star Wars movies. You know, we wouldn't have a heart.

Yeah.

We wouldn't, I don't know what we would feel.

Yeah. I think, I think the word that is being misused is that AI is going to replace human intelligence. I think what we need is that it's going to augment us. It's going to make us even better. And hopefully there'll be a world that we can— AI can help us get the work done and be more efficient. And as you were saying, be more creative, but then you can go and be more human, which I think we've forgotten in so many ways.

Yeah. So will AI allow you and me more time to be with our family?

Yes.

And that is a great thing. Will AI allow us to get from point A to Z much faster? Yeah, that's a great thing, but it still won't be able to touch.

Yeah. Yeah. This idea of being human, I think about 7, 8 years ago, that was the first time I was getting coached by someone. And with that senior leader, I asked him, like, I'm in this dichotomy and conflict that am I being or am I doing? So how have you seen this play out? Because I'm pretty sure in your role and the career that you've had, it's not like an easy path, right? So how do you balance this idea of doing and being?

So you just put another song in my head and it's another song by The Killers and it's Are We Human or Are We Dancers? And I don't exactly know what that means necessarily, other than the way I've interpreted it is, are we human beings or are we marionettes? You know, are we puppets?

Yeah.

But to answer your question, what a wonderful, what a wonderful world it is if we can be in this world, be present in this world. The doing for me, that's the verb. That's the doing, making sandcastles, the busy work we do, the cooking. That's the doing. I think what I would love is if we can marry the being, which I think is presence, being present with the doing. And so much of us are doing this while we're trying to be present. I'm not present right now. I'm reading my texts. It's almost impossible for me to be present and listen to you when I'm doing this. But that's what we are doing while I'm trying to be present with my children.

Yeah. And children, I think, have a great sense. I have 2 boys who are now 14 and 11. And a few years ago, they were— when they were growing up, I would be Gmailing while I'm talking to them. And they'd be like, Dad, you can do either of the 2 things. Because you're not looking at me, you're not paying attention to my expression, and so you're not talking to me. And they would walk away. And that made me realize that, what am I losing through that distraction, through that trying to do and be? Good.

Yeah, it's the same thing. So our kids will say when we're texting, because that's what we're doing, right? Can you put your phone down?

Love it.

And you hear it once, Or maybe I don't hear it because I'm busy in my phone. I hear it a third time and then I just obviously feel terrible. Of course I can put my phone down, but they're so on it. They're wise, these children, these kids, no matter how old. Mine are 4 and 7. I mean, boy, oh boy, do they notice when I'm not being present.

Being yourself at work. If we were to, and it's a huge idea, right? Because It is, A, not easy, and B, what I'm gonna hopefully gain today is that I feel, A, it's not easy for me as a person to be myself at work, and then is it easy for the other person to receive me at who I'm wanting to be?

Bingo. So that's such a wonderful paradox because here, especially in the first part of the book, the being yourself at work is getting comfortable with yourself. The self-awareness part, understanding that when you do not show up as yourself, you carry a very heavy weight. You carry a lot of armor on your back. However, to be yourself at work, and what I'm asking for is not only the self-awareness, but the idea of being able to regulate myself, the emotional regulation, because then to your point, can another person receive me? Well, probably if I'm just like this, but if I'm freaking out and spazzing or crying and I have a lot of drama going on in my life, no thanks. That's hard. That's hard to ask another person. So then the book goes into the team and how do we work together as a team knowing that we want to regulate ourselves, but we also want to embrace the magic of who we are. That's the part that I feel like I want to put the puzzle pieces together, the jigsaw puzzle, because it'll never be a— I don't think it'll ever be a perfect world because people hold back for a variety of reasons. And you and I don't have their lived experience. We don't know why. And it took me a very long time to feel comfortable with my own self-awareness and my own ability to not spill. Right? So it's a journey. The whole thing is a journey. However, I feel like the more we can do this together on teams and be okay with one another, acknowledge each other for the brilliance you bring, the creativity, the humor, and also the seriousness you bring. You know, maybe a family member's in the hospital, your dog is sick, whatever, right? I feel like if we can be accepting of that, we can become much more efficient. And through that efficiency, which I talk about, there's also the bravery of being able to say, I really disagree with that point of view. Can you explain that a little bit more to me? Or, I'm going to share with you my subjective feedback, which is— I don't think you're ready for a promotion because da da da da da. But if it comes from that place, my heart, if it comes from that place that you know me already, we've connected, you trust me, we have built resilience together on this team, my hope is that that is what, that is what is the loudest, our connection. Not that I'm trying to critique you or correct you. I just want you to be the best you, and you want me to be the best me, and we need each other for that.

So beautiful. Let's start with the self because I want this to really go deep for the listener because I think somewhere you say that your worth is inherent and not earned. That to me was like really hard-hitting because I've seen so many people where their worth depends on someone else or what they do or what the outcome is. Just dissect this for me that your worth is inherent.

And I will say it's very different per culture. You know, the American world, the world that I live in, you know, we are, we're large, we're loud, we're entrepreneurial. And that's a generalization, of course. Your world might be more demanding. Your parents may have been more demanding of you, especially first-gen, right? You must go to college, you must get a PhD, you must be a doctor. And that's understandable too. In that context, you have to prove yourself. And again, that's a cultural thing, and I'm not a cultural anthropologist, but what I mean in the workplace, we've spent months and months looking for you. Trying to recruit you. We've looked at all these other people. We found you. Now, for the last 2 months, we've interviewed you. You've come in, you've met 5 people. We know you. We think we know you. You know us. Why in the world would you have to come into the workplace and gain our trust? We've already spent months with you. Why would you have to do that? Why can't we just trust? That we hired the best person for this role who is going to come in and bring us all kinds of creativity and curiosity and innovation and wonder. Why do you have to prove yourself day 1 or day 30? That's what I mean. Who you are needs to be enough. And notice I didn't say who you are should be enough. I said, who you are needs to be enough. We've already gone there with you. There is nothing you need to prove other than you are a good-hearted person and you come in peace.

That's such a powerful perspective, you know, and what you said, I think, reframes this for me that anyone who's hiring has spent effort, time, made you meet like 5 people in the company, the CEO, and they've hired you because they trust that you're the right candidate. But does the relationship change as soon as the person becomes part of the company? And I'm, yeah, I'm just skeptical.

Okay. So, and I like that you're skeptical. In most places, probably. But how about if you had a culture that was trusting first? And by the way, that came in from the top and everyone knew that is the water we drink. We trust first. Now, we're human beings, so we're going to be skeptical, right? Not everyone is going to trust as I trust for a variety of reasons. My own path, I have no reason to not trust you. Someone else might be like, eh, you're here to take my job. That's a whole nother thing. But if it's in the culture and we know we are coming from a place of emotional intelligence, wanting the best for all of us because we all want to be successful here, trust is foundational. Having that trust is foundational. You'll not have psychological safety or connection or belonging without being able to at least trust, even on a micro level. I'm not saying trust, come over to my house and play with my children. I'm saying, I trust that you are the right hire, and I trust that you know how to do this job. And now, because I am here with you, I'm taking you around on day 1, and I'm going to introduce you to 5 people. You should go get coffee with them in the next week, and they will trust you too. They will be inquisitive about you. But that's in our water. It's not in everyone's water. Especially, I think, places that are extremely data-driven and obviously scientific and all of those things. That's different. But I'm talking about the common job. I'm talking about— I'm not talking about being at NASA and having to go up in a spaceship. I don't have jurisdiction there. But just in the normal day-to-day— Connection, not transaction, connection. There's no reason for me to need you to prove your worth to me. You made it. Congratulations. Welcome. That's what I say. Welcome to Vayner. Welcome. Welcome to my house. The same thing I would say here.

I love this idea. And there's so many mirror neurons that are getting fired right now. So at the company, when we invite some, like when someone joins, The email, even if it's an intern, the email we send is, welcome to Ignited Neurons. And I think that's just, yeah, just special for them.

Yeah. Well, it is because then they feel like they are a part of.

Absolutely.

And they are. They are. You hired them. They are now a part of. What I say to our people on day 1, when I meet everyone every other week, you are just, congratulations, you are just as responsible for this culture as I am now. Congratulations, you get to put your heartprint, your thumbprint on this culture. How cool is that?

It is. It is. For someone who's listening and they don't have— they've not found the organization that trusts them the way we've spoken in the last few minutes, what can they do, Claude, to be themselves at work? What's the work that they need to do on their own self or their environment So that they can feel like they've got something that they can practice Monday morning.

Yeah. So if they are going to stay at that place, this is what I—

I love the context. If they're going to— yeah.

Well, I've been at those companies. I've been at those companies that didn't have Gary Vaynerchuk as the CEO. And it's hard. However, I never changed who I was. I was always that unofficial mentor. That person that still loved being with people, that still loved learning and jamming with people. So what I say to that person who is not going to leave that job on Monday, don't change your stripes. If you are a zebra, stay a zebra. Even though the rest of the culture is filled with alligators, do not change because you are needed there. And we know when we're needed, when we make friends, when we bring people into our area and they, hey, can I, you know, can I sit down with you? Can you explain this to me? So that is what I say. Do not change. Find your people. They will find you. And that's what you're going to do until you're ready to do something different because not everyone can leave their job on Monday.

The context that you set here, I think that if you want to not leave that job, Just don't change your stripes. Just be who you are. I think it's powerful. And in the book, you speak about these 3 ideas, right? The optimism, the emotional optimism, the efficiency, and bravery. How does that— how does one practice that? And like, yeah, just if someone's listening, they've not heard these terms, what does it mean to have emotional bravery, optimism, and efficiency? And how do you practice that?

So emotional optimism to me, Is belief, possibility. You know that the sun is going to shine tomorrow. It might not be shining today. You might've gotten a terrible review. You're emotional about it. You have emotions. That person cut you off and they interrupted you in the meeting for the 3rd time. You have emotions about it. That is great, but you are not your emotions. I have emotions that that person gave me a terrible review, and guess what? They've only worked with me for 2 months. That's not fair. I'm emotional about that. But I do know that, A, I can get help. I can talk to someone about that, whomever that is, my mentor, my manager, HR, whatever. But I have agency to change that thought and look at that person and say, you know what? That's really too bad that that person felt like they needed to jump in on what I said 3 times. Like, I feel for them. And hopefully, I don't pity them. I hope that they work through that, but I'm not them. And their intent wasn't to slash me. Their intent was, I got to get my idea out. I got to get my idea out. Not realizing that we're in a community, we're in a room together. Emotional optimism is feeling it, knowing that I am not an angry person, but that hurt my feelings, that frustrated me. And then knowing that I can change that. Tomorrow's going to be a different day. I'm not going to walk in feeling as down as I am today. I can change that. The bravery is then doing something about that. So in this case, doing something about that situation where the person interrupts 3 times, here's a very brave thing to do. You go to that person and say, hey, yesterday that was hard for me in the meeting when you interrupted me. Oh my God, I didn't even realize I interrupted you. Okay, well, that's good to know. You did interrupt me and I was left feeling that I wasn't smart enough, or I was left feeling, you know, that no one cared about my feelings. Oh my God, I'm so sorry I did that. Most of the time, that's what you're going to get, right? People are not out to get us in the workplace, contrary to popular belief. So that's the emotional bravery is sharing and taking action. Then the efficiency is the more I do that, For myself. And the more I do that with others, the faster we go. It's short. It becomes shorthand because now this person, it's Bob. Bob interrupted me 3 times. I now have been a little bit vulnerable with Bob and told him that. And I guarantee you that Bob will probably never do that again to me. And maybe in the next meeting, Bob will say, hey, Claude, why don't you share your idea? Something like that. But it gets faster. We can do, it's, I call it shorthand. We can get through things quicker. And that's what this world is looking for right now is speed, isn't it? Speed of not hanging onto the drama. It's not so heavy. It was heavy when he first interrupted me, but it's not heavy today. And also like in a team, we've built resilience muscles. I know what bothers you. You know what bothers me. I know your family's in the hospital. I know you live miles and miles and miles away. from your family and you miss them. We know that already. We don't have to hash it out all the time. I wanna be very empathetic when I come to you and I say, oh, I'm going home for the holidays. And you say to me, I live a million miles away. I cannot get on a plane. I should know that. I should spend enough time with you to know that.

Yeah. It keeps coming back to the connection that we build, right? Because you said the trust is the foundation. And a question that was popping up in my head, which I've answered for myself in my head, but I'm still gonna ask you because maybe there are listeners who have not. Just this idea of going and talking to that person, oh, you interjected me in the meeting, this is how I felt. It is so hard. It is so heavy to take that step.

Yes, but I have a question for you. I'm, oh, I just interrupted you.

No, go ahead.

If you don't do that, these are the things that may happen. One, Gossip. You know, Bob has interrupted me 3 times. Oh, he interrupted me the other day too. I hate it here. Cynicism. This place sucks. No one else called him out on that. I bet you he gets away with everything. How heavy and gross is that? Then all of a sudden I become a wounded bird. I start gossiping and now really I'm gonna leave this place 'cause this place stinks, right? Bob has no idea that he interrupted me, most likely. Right? The room, maybe some people in the room did, maybe they talked to him, maybe not. It is very difficult to be vulnerable, but what is the alternative? That's the thing. And that is, by the way, that's in life. That's not at work. That's in life. What is the alternative? The alternative is we take baby steps and try to share our voice, share our feelings, and move on. Bob did not mean to hurt me. It just happened. But the alternative is I then sour the grapes and tell everyone I can that Bob stinks. Now what did I do? Now I really messed up. All because my feelings got hurt and I didn't go to Bob or I didn't go to Bob's manager or I didn't go to my manager. And say, that hurt me.

It's the assumptions that start to percolate then, and then that starts to speak out loud of what the culture is, whereas all of that is in your head. And so, all you need to do is just change the song. Exactly. Change the song.

Change the song. And so, it's so hard as a human being, but if we can remember, Bob and I are on the same team. I'm in a team meeting. What do we wanna do? We wanna get through this brief. We wanna do great work. We wanna succeed and grow. And then I wanna go home. Thank you. You know, I don't, I mean, we're here because we want to be at this organization and we wanna grow and we believe in it and we believe we'll all be very successful and ambitious and whatnot. It takes an enormous leap of faith, which is called optimism as well. Possibility to think maybe Bob had a bad morning. Maybe Bob's partner yelled at him. And so he felt that he just needed to get his words out there today. 8 million things could be, could be true. But we don't think about that. And instead we share the toxicity that we feel and cynicism. And then we've just added a layer of, of yuck. And we can't, we don't have to do that. We just don't have to do that. It's, it's done. It's cooked. We've done it already.

You're making it so visual and I'm like, I'm just putting myself in the middle to make it really real for the listeners because what I feel is like, and I remember, I think what we do is that we start to assume things on other people's behalf. And as you were saying, and as the brain is primitive, we think of all the negative things that might have happened, that, oh, Bob hates me, Bob does not like me, Bob wants to demean me, to belittle me, and do all of that. And we never think, oh, maybe Bob and his spouse had a conversation or a heated argument this morning, or Bob received some bad news that's then reflecting. What's— and I know the brain is primitive, and that stops us from shifting into a more positive perspective. But if you were to give one piece of advice, which coaches don't like to do, but if you were to give one piece of advice, how does one shift the thinking from negative to positive?

Stop. Stop for a second. Just stop. Take a deep breath. Walk around the hall. Go take a walk with your friend. Whatever it is, just stop. Stop. And try to say to yourself, listen, I'm not wrong. I don't think he's a mean guy. I know in my heart of hearts that I'm smart. I have good ideas, whatever you need to then change your song. And the only thing I really can say is you have to stop. You have to take a second. Now, one day you and I are going to have microchips of AI in our head and we'll ask AI and then it'll tell us what to do. But for now, We have to figure out conflict resolution as humans. And it's risky, but I will go back to what is the alternative? What is the alternative?

That's a great question to ask, right? What is the alternative? And then maybe you, you go ahead and choose that.

You go ahead and choose that, or you go ahead and do nothing. And that's fine too. But that nothing doesn't mean gossip.

Yeah.

Nothing means go home, take a shower, make a nice dinner, just chill and remember that it will be better tomorrow. You are not gonna feel the same way, most likely.

Our authentic selves are sometimes very, very messy. And, and I know, like, if someone needs to balance being true to themselves and also conform to the need to perform, to please, to project confidence, How does one figure that balance out?

Well, we gotta go back to self-awareness, right? And I think a lot of that, the answer to that question is going to be very specific based on that person's lived experience. Because the way you grow up, grew up, and the way I grew up was very different. We heard different messages. Now I am going to act, I'm either going to act out Based on those messages that I heard, or I'm going to take some time in my 20s, 30s, 40s, whenever, and try to figure myself out, try to become self-aware of. And when I was told, as I say in the book, by my parents who I love so much and who love me, what they said to me when I was 13, 14, 15, you think too much with your heart, Claude. When are you going to learn how to think with your head? Now, they said that out of love and protection, and how I translated that was not out of love and protection. And it took me quite a while to understand the song I put in my head the minute they said that. And that song said, I don't belong. There's something wrong with me. I'm missing the microchip that everyone else seems to have. And I carried that for a very long time. I did. I carried that into my 30s, way too long. And in carrying that into my 30s, I did not say yes to opportunities because I thought I was broken. And that's why, in a roundabout way, answering the questions, you might not have had that same messaging. You're gonna act very differently in the workplace, potentially. For me, I now know that emotional intelligence is a superpower of mine, but I can tell you right now, data analysis is not. It's just not. Mathematics is not. And I'm okay with that. I'm really okay with that today.

And it takes a lot of work on self to get to that stage, to get to that stage.

Yes.

Unless you are lucky enough to grow up in a beautiful spiritual home where the principles of acceptance are loud and clear. And I think that's very special people that, and very special spiritualities that probably profess that at a young age. You know, that's a conversation for another day, but—

Yeah. Yeah.

But, you know, um, the idea of acceptance of self that we started this conversation with, with self-judgment.

Yeah.

But coming back to this idea of acceptance of self, yeah, of course I would wish to be taller. It's not gonna happen. Right?

Yeah.

I wish I didn't have to wear reading glasses.

Yeah.

I do.

Correct.

Okay. So let's, let's move on. And what are the great things? What are the great things I wanna do? with this 5-foot-2 person here, you know?

Love it. There's this quote that I used to use a lot, which said, we suffer more in imagination than in reality. And I was at an offsite a few weeks ago, and as we were reflecting and introspecting and meditating and doing all of that, what came to me is that we suffer more in imagination than in reality, But we can also make the choice of finding more joy in imagination than in reality.

That's nice.

And it's such a good switch. It's such— it's in our neurons that they keep taking us to that negative side of things. And who are we to call it like negative or positive to whatever that baseline is? And I think if we keep working and reworking our own thoughts, then we can be more of ourselves at work is what I'm hoping and praying for.

Yeah, I hope and pray too, because the way I have to believe that the way we were imagined and the way we came to be human beings was not to be full of self-hatred, was not to be full of self-doubt. I have to believe that. I do believe that. So we have work to do, but there are many of us on this path. That, that no, the workplace can be different. We can show up differently. We deserve to be happy in the workplace.

Yeah, we deserve. It's the most amount of hours that we'll spend doing anything in our lifetime, and to not be able to be happy at work is not fair. It's not fair.

It's not fair, and it's not fair to yourself. And then all of the angst the Sunday scaries. That's not fair either to yourself, right?

Yeah.

So we have work to do, both from the leadership, both from the individuals, both from the culture. What is that culture that's holding you? What is that culture made of? Is it made of fear and scarcity? Okay, well, that's not going to work for me. I don't work well there. Is it made up of friendship and camaraderie and collaboration? I can do that.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm imagining, and again, this is an assumption, but I'm imagining that when you build this culture, when you do this work of heart at VaynerMedia, which is a massive organization, which will have its own chaos, and on the outside it looks like everything's happening seamlessly, but at the backend it can never be so. How are you creating that that camaraderie, that heart-based culture at such a massive organization?

Yeah, at scale.

At scale.

Yeah, at scale. So, first and foremost, I work for Gary, and he's very outspoken, whether or not it's on social or in our conversations, about doing the right thing, being the bigger person, right? So, we have that from our CEO. He has put his trust in me to be what he would say the emotional framework of the company. I would say the emotional barometer, as I said earlier. And my job is to scale that. My job is to be with enough people so that they get the love, they get the possibility, they get the opportunity, whatever it is, they get the connection. that I can give them and connect them to all other people. I have a wonderful team that's called People and Experience Team. I never wanted to do HR, so I changed the name and have a great team globally. I was just in, as you know, I was just in Singapore and Sydney, Australia, checking out those teams for the first time. And I'm so proud of them and so inspired that they also are scaling the heart. And then in all offices, I have designated culture champions. Now, culture champions have a day job. They have their own jobs, but I know I can call on them. I can Slack them and say, I heard Peter is having a really hard time. His dad's in the hospital in London. Can you please find him and see if he'd like to take a walk and get a coffee with you? I can do that and I can rely on these people. Or it's your first month and I say to you, hey, have you met anyone outside of your team yet? No? Okay, good. I'm gonna introduce you to 5 people. You know, here we are. Please meet my new friend. He's in the media department. He loves surfing. Can you find 15 minutes in the next 2 months to have a Zoom or a real coffee with him if you're in his location? And that way you've just met 5 wonderful people, and guess what they're gonna do? Introduce you to 5 more wonderful people. And so that's how it scales. And when the people come to me after their first month, their 6th month, their year, and they say, wow, I thought this was too good to be true, but it actually, this is a great culture, which is wonderful. I want them to feel that. I don't want them to know what's going on sometimes in the back. That makes me feel really good. I'm like, yes, great. Okay, now I know they're going to go sit down next to Mary and Sarah and they're going to have that good vibe. I hear it in the kitchen. I hear it. Culture is built in these micro moments. It's not the big sign on the wall here. It's passing you in the bathroom and saying, I saw you got engaged on Instagram. Congratulations. Or, oh my God, I'm going to this concert tonight. You're going there too?

Cool.

Whatever.

Yeah.

We can do that. We know how to do that.

We are human beings wired for connection, and so we can absolutely do that. And I think what you're sharing is just, just create this, uh, this, this conscious system almost that makes, makes culture or spreading culture beautifully a self-fulfilling prophecy. Very powerful.

Yes, I, I hope so.

If you were to summarize something from the book to a listener who's listening right now and wants to be more of themself at work, what would you say, Claude?

Every single person deserves to bloom and blossom. And that means you, and that means getting to know yourself. Like, get to know yourself so that others can get to know the real you. That might be what I would say to them. I would also say to them, what does it cost you to not show up as yourself every day? Like, really tell me, tell me when you walk through the doors every day, what do you put in that backpack? And you know, if you ask someone that, they can tell you, well, I put my sense of humor. Oh my gosh, why would you put your sense of humor in the backpack? Well, 'cause people might not think I'm funny. Well, How do you know? Ha! You know, or someone said to me, I put, this was someone in a different country, I put the fact that I'm a really good mate and I'm like a guy's guy into the back and I just show up very professional and serious. What does that cost you every day? Person's probably gonna leave at some point. It's not gonna work. It's not sustainable.

Yeah. And what would he have gained by being that mate to so many at work?

You mean by— oh my God, he would've gained friendship. He would've been a phenomenal leader. What I said to him is, your team has no idea who you are. You haven't connected with them. You keep them at a distance. Yes.

I think this idea, through the Industrial Revolution and all of that, the last 100 years of work, this idea that you have to shed yourself to show up fully at work, I think the book changes that. And I think it's really important that this idea shifts because we are human beings. We are— it's impossible for me to show up someone else to Claude in this moment and then go and have an argument with my partner and then go and scold my children and then be an amazing leader. Like, this disconnection cannot work.

It can't. It's too much up here. It's too much stress in our body.

Yeah.

It adds to anxiety. Who should I be now? What imposter should I be? Put on this mask with you because I'm on a podcast with you, but then I'm going to go play with Barbies over there and I'm going to be a different person. I just don't, I can't afford to do that to me anymore. And I really think people can't afford to. It's too much, too much, too much stress these days. We need to Alleviate ourselves from all of this burden that we put on ourselves because the world is putting enough on us.

Such a powerful conversation we've had. Now, if we go into the future, Claude, to the 80-year-old Claude, the 8-0, a few decades in the future, if that Claude were to come to you right now and give you one piece of advice, I see a big smile. I see the song playing. What advice would that Claude have for you?

Great question. Continue to communicate your truth. Continue to lead with heart. Don't shy away from it.

To everyone who's listening, in today's episode, we've given you a lot of questions to reflect and deeply introspect on. What song is playing in your head? What are you— what does it cost you to not show up as yourself? Just this idea of of knowing yourself better and connecting with yourself. This innate sense of belonging. Where do you show up as where you fully belong? And so much more. Thank you, Claude, for this very beautiful conversation. I appreciate you for being here. I felt belonged to this moment.

Yeah, me too.

Amazing. Thank you. To everyone who's listening on a podcast platform, share it with others, because that's how the wisdom spreads. And if you're on YouTube and you've spent 60 minutes listening to this, so that means this was worth it. So yeah, make sure you send a comment to us and look forward to seeing you in the next episode. This is Utkarsh and Claude signing off.