Why Relationships Don't Last Anymore (And It's Not What You Think)

There comes a time in a marriage when sex stops feeling like something you want and becomes something that you owe.

We stop making it a priority because we think everything's gonna be fine, it's gonna take care of itself. I mean, we're lazy, right?

You used to reach out to each other, now you reach out for the phone. And nothing's broken, exactly. Life, it just happened. The bills, the kids, and between the calendar, you lost that spark. And somewhere in the middle of all of it, the two of you This is Jenae. She's a sex and intimacy coach, and after 26 years in a sexless marriage, at age 50, she started to rebuild everything. And in our conversation, she says that most couples don't make it past stage 2.

We have a lot of obligation sex in this stage of a relationship, again, because we want to continue to validate that we're important to this person.

And the longer you wait to name it, the harder it gets to find your way back.

Intimacy and sex are skills that anybody can learn.

So what if this isn't where the story ends? What if passionate intimacy is something you can choose right now? Let's begin. Humanity has been growing for the last 100,000 years. For, for since forever, we've been reproducing because as animals, that's one of the most important things that we do. But today I have Jene, who's a sex and intimacy coach. And even though it seems that something that the world is doing, But there are marriages, there are couples, there are partnerships where they're broken not because of large issues, but because the physical intimacy has disappeared. And my hypothesis today is that we'll talk about connection, we'll talk about sex, we'll talk about intimacy. We'll also talk about how it's much more deeper than what the world is portraying it to be. Welcome to the conversation today, Jenae.

Thank you so much, Utkarsh. I'm happy to be here, and I'm excited to talk to you and your audience about how to work through issues around sexual disconnection and emotional disconnection and to give them some really good tools and to understand my work through my book and my retreats and everything that passionate intimacy means to me.

Yeah, just maybe let's, let's just dive into just understanding this, this word passionate intimacy, because, you know, not everyone understands sex as something that's, that's intimate, that's really special also. So just help us understand, what does this mean to have passionate intimacy?

That's a really good question. And it's a little, it's a little involved, but I'll do my best to answer it. Nobody's ever, nobody's ever asked me that question before, by the way.

There'll be, there'll be plenty of new questions in this podcast. I can assure you.

I had to put my brain, I had to put my brain, eat my brain food this morning because I knew I was going to do a podcast with Utkarsh.

Amazing.

Amazing.

Amazing. Let's do it. So let's talk about it.

Okay. So in the context of relationships, There are basically 3 stages of relationships, right? The first stage is new relationship energy. So that's when you first meet somebody and you fall in love and you just wanna spend all the time with each other and have sex all the time. And that is very driven by brain chemicals, by hormones, right? By dopamine, like just flooding your system. You know, as we know, dopamine is like crack cocaine. It's like very, very, very addictive. And I always say it It's just like Mother Nature's way of ensuring that procreation continues in our species. But it ends after a period of time, like generally 6 to 12, maybe 18 months at the outset. Those, those chemicals no longer are there. And then you're like looking at this person, you've taken the rose-colored glasses off, and you're like, oh my God, who are you for real?

Mm-hmm.

And all of the little things that were so adorable and cute are start start to get annoying, right? Like, as I say, the real relationship starts at that point.

Hmm.

And then you enter into this stage called validation sex or validation intimacy, where many, many couples stay here for their entire relationship. They just get stalled at this place where you're constantly like connecting with each other and having sex in order to validate yourself and the relationship. In order to prove to your partner that you love them, right? In order to make sure that they don't leave you, like there's a constant validation that's going on. And sometimes, and often it's fueled by, or I should say disinhibition in that stage is very common, which is being fueled by alcohol or mostly alcohol, but sometimes, you know, CBD, you know, marijuana, whatever. Right. And that is a very common space where people stay for a very long period of time. But it's kind of surface level, right? There's a surface levelness to that stage where I'm not really being vulnerable. I'm not really opening myself up. You know, we're having sex in the defined way in which we think we're supposed to having sex as society has interpreted that for us. And it can get stale and it can get boring and it may not feel as emotionally connected. Often it doesn't, right?

It doesn't.

So this is when like service sex happens. We have a lot of obligations. sex in this stage of a relationship, again, because we wanna continue to validate that we're important to this person, that the relationship is important to show them, even though maybe it's something that we're not actually enjoying. And then there's this third stage, which hopefully more couples will get in now that my book has been published, which is called, I call it the passionate intimacy stage. And this is a much deeper stage of connection. This is a stage where we slow everything down.

Mm-hmm.

We allow ourselves to be more authentic. and vulnerable. We focus as much on the sexual intimacy stage as on the emotional intimacy and the emotional connection. This is a stage where there can be, you know, I mean, a lot of exploration that can happen and a whole redefinition of what sex actually is in this phase. And this is a phase that I really want all couples to be in, because this is a phase that really helps support the relationship long term.

And I think—

so long answer to a little question.

No, it was a, it was a beautiful answer. And it answers so many of my questions that I'm not thinking like, what questions do I have for you? But, but what it does beautifully is that, you know, it, it makes sense, right? Everyone would want to get into that state of passionate intimacy, but it feels that the world does not know enough about it. And so we'll get into understanding how How does one go from that beautiful dopamine surge to that stale, emotionally disconnected, not being vulnerable? Because vulnerability is also a very interesting term, and I'll talk more about that. And then hopefully we'll have our listeners be moved into this space of passionate intimacy. But even before we go there, your own journey of how many decades you've had on the planet, if I take you back to that 8-year-old, That young 8-year-old, 8, just 8, that little kid growing up wherever you were. If that 8-year-old were to come and meet you right now and have a conversation, what kind of a conversation would emerge between the two of you?

I can't imagine that either. If my 8-year-old came to see me, well, those were very hard years for me, 7, 8, 9, 10. So I think what, I think what my 8-year-old would know, would need to know is that everything was going to be okay. That Everything's gonna turn out okay, that nobody else is gonna abandon me, right? That I'm gonna live a happy life and that I'm gonna be loved and liked. I think that's what, I think that's, I think that's all my 8-year-old would ask for. Just reassurance that life is gonna, it's gonna feel a lot different than it did at 8.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The reassurance. And I think these 2 words that you use here, right? Being loved and being liked. And I think it also stems into relationships, right? When you get into that dopamine state, the dopamine is helping you love and like each other, but then the cycle of life progresses and you're getting into that validation intimacy stage. And then to even get to passionate intimacy, it's that feeling of being loved and liked. What is it about being loved that's so— like, there's an insatiable appetite we all, all of us have to be loved.

Yes, we're human beings, right? I mean, I think if you think of Like, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Yeah. You know, I'm talking about the pyramid of hierarchy of needs, right? Yeah, the triangle. Yeah, the triangle, right? So, you know, connection, I mean, sex shows up twice, right? First on the very basic level of food, survival, sex, right? And then it shows up on the 3rd level of love and community and connection, right? So just a very basic need for us to feel like we're important to another human being. I think it helps us feel more human, but also more purposeful. Like, oh, like somebody else loves me. I'm on this earth for, I mean, I'm getting really philosophical here, but, you know, somebody else loves me. I'm on this earth for a reason, right?

Mm-hmm.

And I think, you know, that it really honestly, Utkarsha, goes back to, you know, when you really think about it, it goes back to our attachment wounds or the type of attachment we had as an infant, right? Of like that somebody cared for me and loved me and took care of me, a very securely attached infant versus I didn't know if my needs were gonna be met and if I was really loved and I wasn't picked up when I was crying. And so I wasn't soothed, right? And that creates a lot of fear and wounding for us and like not trusting another individual to actually be there. So I think it's just like hugely important. Yeah.

Yeah.

Of being a healthy human being.

Yeah, it's an innate human need. But let's go back to that state, right? It seems to me that when a new relationship is formed and the dopamine's high, and even in case of like you've met the other person, you love everything about them, why do, why do things fade out even in relationships which start off at a high? Like, it seems like this, this is a match made in heaven and this will never fall apart. And then still that shifts. What happens in those relationships?

And I think this is a very, very normal and natural part of a relationship evolving.

Mm-hmm.

What I, what typically happens is life happens, right? So you had all this new relationship juicy energy. You were super excited about this person who came into your life, who you fell in love with. They were the center of your universe. You did everything with them. You did everything for them. You thought about all them all the time, right? Like that is that attraction that we have. And then And again, that is chemically motivated as well, right? And then those chemicals are no longer there. And all of a sudden the real relationship shows up, right? So the stress that maybe was being overridden by the dopamine starts to show up, right? Life happens, you know, like real life, right? Like for a lot of young couples, pretty soon they're having children, right? And then kids come in the picture. Or if you're in a second or third marriage, there's aging parents. There's adult children or teenage children that have to be dealt with, right? There's the dog that has to be taken to the vet. There's all of these things that happen. And I think we make the assumption, which is a bad assumption, that our relationship is just going to take care of itself because everything has been so wonderful. Why would it be any different, right? And of course it's going to be different because you're actually at a real stage in the relationship. And so we stop making it a priority. And I do really think that's what happens. We stop making it a priority because we think everything's going to be fine. It's going to take care of itself. I mean, we're lazy, right?

Yeah. We're lazy and we're also ignorant. I think we take that relationship sometimes for granted because we feel like this person's here, been here for 10 years, will be here for another 20. So who cares?

Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. And then we're so focused on paying the bills, being the parent, getting the things done that we forget that there's a another human being who is at the root of all of that to grow with.

Right. And so we don't grow together and we don't, you know, and another thing that happens is, you know, there's a bunch of things, but another thing that happens is like we stop having those really deep conversations very often, right? We move from having these conversations about our desires and our dreams and what our future looks like. And, you know, all of the things that you talk about in the beginning of a relationship, and then it starts becoming mundane.

Right.

Our conversations shift to like, who's taking, who's paying the bills? The groceries need to be picked up, right? All of that other stuff, right? I think that's, you know, another reason why it fades. There's a variety, but those are like, you know, 2 of the reasons that I think relationships start to fade. There's often, you know, mismatched desires, right? Like one partner wants more physical intimacy than the other partner does, and that creates a lot of friction. And rather than having the communication skills to be able to talk about it and understand what's actually going on. It's just easier just to like, let's avoid the conflict. We don't have to talk about it. Right. But again, that for sure isn't going to solve itself. And yeah, so, you know, we're not paying attention. You know, we're really not paying attention. Yeah. And then we start taking our partner for granted.

Yeah.

Like you said, we've been together for 10 years. Why won't we be together for the next 20 years? Right? Oh, I don't have to buy her flowers anymore. She knows I love her. But we all wanna be, feel desired, right? And we wanna feel like we're special and that somebody, our partner in particular, is thinking about us, right? That's, that's, it's just a normal human need.

Hmm. So imagine there's someone who's listening to us. It could be a man or a woman. It could be a single partner in that relationship, right? And it's starting to make sense to them, but having that conversation with their partner will still be hard. So how do you, what do you recommend to them? Where should they start this journey from going to that stale phase to passionate intimacy?

Well, you have to start with, excuse me, and I know this is a really hard journey, uh, and it's a scary, it's a scary topic to bring up because think of all of the ways in which it could go wrong, right? Like your partner's gonna feel guilty. That you haven't, they haven't been having sex with you. They're afraid, you know, you're afraid that you're just going to get rejected again, like all of the feelings, right? And so one of the things that I did, because this comes up all the time, is I actually created a tool that will allow you to get that conversation started and actually going to offer it to everybody who is listening as well. It is called an Intimacy Equation Quiz.

Okay.

Or it's an intimacy equation formula. It's in the form of a quiz. We call it the intimacy equation quiz. And it's kind of just like one of those very fun, short, 3-minute kind of like Facebook tests that you take. And at the end of it, you find out what your intimacy style is. So are you somebody who is more on the emotional side where language is really important to you and you really need to be able to talk about feelings? Are you somebody who is like more adventuresome and intimacy for you is like doing new things with your partner all the time and exploring? Are you somebody where trust is— safety is really important to you and you just like to, you know, stay home and cuddle and watch, you know, television together because that creates that trust, right? There's a couple of different styles. And so you take this fun little quiz and you get your results and then you go to your partner and you say, hey, I just found out, you know, I took this fun little quiz and I found out that this is what my intimacy style is. I'm curious what yours is. Would you wanna take the quiz? And then they do, and then you start a conversation, right? And it's kind of like a low-risk way in order to have that conversation because it's a scary conversation to have. But this is a low-risk way because we're not like talking about our relationship per se. We're just talking about new information that we're receiving and We're curious about like how we integrate this and it begins to start the conversation. It's a very helpful tool. You can, I'm telling you guys where you can find it. You can find it at this website, which is howtoimprovemylovelife.com.

Yeah, we'll put the links in the, in the show notes. So, so I love that as a starting point, you figure out what your intimacy style is. It gives you awareness and it gives you a way of Speaking to your partner as well about it. But what if someone still is not ready to do the work? What, what do they stand to lose? How, how have you seen relationships fall apart? Like, what have you seen in that real world of yours where you've seen that people are in that stale state and they don't get to the next level? What happens to those relationships so that it can inspire some of our listeners to actually shift things about them?

Yeah. So I think one thing that I want your listeners to understand, right, is That intimacy and sex are skills that anybody can learn, right? And my whole new book, The Sex and Intimacy Repair Kit, is about that, right? Providing lots of ideas of skills and really understanding what you need to know in order to be able to repair issues around relationships and intimacy. And I know it sometimes feels overwhelming, but you just have to start at the beginning, right? And to start to take some, you know, very Very small steps. And those steps are really around starting to understand how to begin to express feelings and how to begin to create an emotional connection with your partner, which is probably the underlying thing, almost always the underlying piece that is actually lacking, that neither one of you feel seen, feel understood, feel gotten, right? And that you don't feel comfortable expressing your yourself and your true feelings to your partner. And that's really an important place to start is to like just slow little, like little bites of being honest, like just saying, even just saying, wow, I've been feeling really disconnected from you.

You're making people do such hard work because as I'm, as I'm talking to you and as I'm thinking, you know, it's like, we can talk a lot about vulnerability But as soon as someone becomes vulnerable, the other person needs to have a very high level of empathy to be appreciative, to be accepting, to be listening and leaning in. And I think in this, this hyper-connected yet deeply disconnected world, it's becoming tougher and tougher. What are your thoughts?

Yeah, I mean, it's becoming tougher and tougher, but it's also becoming more and more important, right?

I like that reframe. I like that reframe.

In this hyper-interconnected world where we all have our heads in our devices all the time, or we're working with our agents or whatever, right? It's more and more important to maintain that human connection. As robots and chatbots and everybody else is trying to dehumanize us, what does that leave us, right? You know, there was an interesting study that was just done by a company. sexual wellness company where they interviewed or surveyed 300,000, over 300,000 people. It's one of the largest surveys I think that's ever been done. And the number one desire that people had that showed up on that survey was more emotional connection and emotional intimacy over kinky sex, over energetic, like over everything else. That was the number one thing. It apparently wasn't like that last year. But it was this year. It was also a bigger sample. And I think it's also a reflection of our times. Like we're feeling so disconnected politically and in other ways, like having that human connection feels so yummy when you can actually get there.

I so agree with that. And then there's a deeper, do you feel that people are losing that emotional connection with self?

Yes, I think people, I think we are losing our emotional connection with self because there's so much distractions. There's so, you know, especially for people who are avoidant, there is so— it is so easy to become avoidant. You know, there was a beautiful post I just read on Facebook today about, you know, trying to talk to your partner and they look at their phone just for a second, right? That hurts. That's an avoidant activity. That's a distraction. That's a like, I'm scared to actually hear your emotions, let alone feel my own emotions, right? So I do feel like there's been, you know, a severe disconnection in my work In my book, like I'm constantly making people think about what are you feeling? What's happening in your body? Where do you feel this? Right. You've got to feel the feelings, not just talk about the feelings. I think we're a very heady society and that makes it very hard to be able to be connected to ourselves.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think what you're saying, it makes so much sense and it's Like, it's absolutely critical right now to humanize ourselves more and more because in this world of agents and AI and whatever's happening, if we even lose our bit of humanity that we have, then what is really left? What is really left?

Might as well be robots. We might as well be robots.

Yeah, exactly.

Humanoids.

Yeah. Yeah. Then we don't need to talk about intimacy, right? Or we'll hold a robot's hand and sit and look them in the eyes and—

Exactly. Right.

Yeah. If there is a couple who's reached this stage of being the relationship be really stale and not paying attention to each other, not contributing, not being vulnerable, not being connected to each other, what is it that they should stop doing right now?

To start doing? The first thing that they should—

Stop doing.

Stop doing.

What should they stop doing?

Well, they should— I could tell them what to start doing. What they should stop doing—

I'll come to that. I'll come to that as well.

I mean, you know, what they should What they should stop doing is avoiding the conflict. What they should stop doing is burying their head in the sand and being afraid to be able to say, hey, I'm feeling really disconnected. Can we talk about how you're feeling too? Right? They've gotta stop avoiding the conflict, avoiding the reality, because it's not gonna get better with time. Never. It's just gonna get worse. They're gonna feel more and more distant. That's what they have to stop doing.

It, it, it, it, this statement that time will heal, it hits so deeply in so many ways. We almost use time as a crutch that we will not do something about it, but let time heal it.

Right.

What should they start doing?

Well, I would say the first thing that they should do is they should sit across from each other without words. They should look in each other's eyes and they should just be in silence. and in presence with each other and just notice what's happening in their body when they sit and look at their partner. There could be a lot of emotions that could show up. There could be anger, there could be grief, you know, there could be tears, but just be with each other in silence for a moment and see what you see on this person's face, because we don't do a lot of that. And our eyes really are, you know, the eyes is where our emotions live in. I should say we show our emotions. Through our eyes and through our face as well, right? And it's a beautiful thing and also a incredibly scary, vulnerable thing to do, but it creates so much. It both provides you a lot of information, which is another starting place of start the conversation. And then they should buy my book and start and—

I love that.

Literally, and start reading it and doing the practices and the exercises in it because it will really walk them step by step as to There's the other book as well, right?

Which I find the title fascinating, Living an Orgasmic Life. Tell me more. What does it mean to have an orgasmic life?

Such a good question. So Living an Orgasmic Life is born out of my own personal journey around sexual healing and sexual awakening. And I was living in a, excuse me, a 26-year sexless marriage. And so my whole journey started at the end of that 26-year marriage. 26-year marriage. But to me, living an orgasmic life means— it's really a metaphor, if you will, for, yes, I want you to have more orgasms in your life, but also I want you to understand that being in a state of pleasure actually transforms one's life in multiple ways. It is not just sexually, but it is emotionally. It is the way in which you show up in the world and the way in which people show up for you in the world, your demeanor, your energy. what you bring into your, your life all really shifts when you can be in this, you know, pleasure state in your body. Yeah.

Yeah. It's, uh, yeah, it being in that state of pleasure impacts everything internally and externally on like how we, how we look at ourselves, how we connect ourselves, and how we connect with the world outside being our partner and beyond.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah. Yeah. What does one gain when, when a couple or an individual has reached this state together with someone of passionate intimacy? What do they stand to gain?

How do I describe this? They gain a whole new level of emotional and physical connection. They are in a state where not only are they connected emotionally, they're connected But for a lot of couples, there's— it also creates like a spiritual connection for them as well, right? Like they're almost in a completely different phase of their relationship where things are powerful and there's a lot of growth that happens. I think that's a big piece, right? Like when, when you're in the validation stage, you're kind of stalled as a human being. You're stalled as a couple, at least, right? When you're in a passionate intimacy stage, stage, there's a lot of growth. There's a lot of changes. The relationship deepens. And I don't know how to explain that. I mean, I can just give my own, you know, my own perception, my own experience of being in a relationship now for 5 years. And obviously we've gone through all of the stages. We're in a place where we feel just really safe with each other, like safe enough to allow our childhood traumas to show up if they show up and know that we're going to be held by each other.

Mm-hmm.

Right? And safe enough to like go really deep into exploring what our relationship feels like and when it feels good and when it feels a little sticky and really learning, you know, at a very deep level how to love each other, right? Really like how to love each other and also how to repair when we get into conflict and feeling super safe that we know we're gonna get in conflict, but we also know we're gonna be able to come out of it and we're gonna feel more deeply connected because we both were able to like really show up for each other and ourselves with all of our stuff that, that, that gets in the way. I don't know. That's, that's how I would— that's the best way I can describe what that feels like. And then sexually as well, it's just super nourishing and exciting at times and different at other times, but always feels like very deeply connected.

I think if we analyze the transcript of this episode, deep connection is something that is coming up again and again. And it's fascinating that couples can go through their whole lives connected, but deep connection is something that's, yeah, that's still missing from the world.

And they can, they can stay there for, you know, their entire marriage, their entire relationship. And for honestly, you know, some couples that's totally fine. They don't wanna do the work. They don't wanna go deep. They just wanna sit on the couch and watch the baseball game and drink beers and be with their friends and party. Like, good for them, right? If that's what they want, I have no judgment around that at all. For many people, they want more, right? And I think this happens especially as we get older because there's less to distract us. The kids aren't there anymore, right? You know, the jobs maybe start winding down. You start thinking about, you know, what's life gonna look like when I'm in my 60s or my 70s or whatever. And I think those are the sort of the pain points, the pressure points when people are like, oh, is this all? Like, is this all we have for each other? Can it be different? Do I want it to be different? Do I want it to be different with this person if this person can't go there? Like, do I just want it to be different, right?

Yeah.

And I do think that also it is a matter of maturity as well. There's a level of emotional maturity that happens as we get older as well. And some Some people are just like, you know, born with emotional maturity, right? Like, you know, like they're just like born with Buddha wisdom. You are definitely one of them. I can tell. Right. But, you know, but generally speaking, I think at some level aging and everything that goes along with all of the life experiences that we have and seeing our failability, right. Which, you know, we don't feel like that when we're 25. It humbles us.

Yeah, it does. It does. It does. I was researching for something yesterday and I came across something called, I think, Mensurati meditation. And it's a form of Buddhist meditation where they sit in a room where on the wall are images of dead corpses, where dead bodies and in different stages of decay are on the walls. And they, Buddhist monks and nuns, they sit in the room, meditate over them, and they tell each other, this is going to be me, this is going to be you. And that just shifts from that— what you're saying, the humbleness that comes from realizing that you're maturing. I think that's absolutely spectacular. And as you were speaking, I was writing something down, which I'll share in just a bit. But before we go there, I want to know, in a few decades from now, as we come to the conversation closure today, If that 8-year-old Jenae, the one who's lived all that beautiful era in years and made the impact that you wanted to, if that 8-year-old comes back to you right now in this moment and has one piece of advice for you, what would that 8-year-old be saying? I love the smile.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think she would say, trust yourself and trust your intuition. Beautiful. Trust yourself.

Trust yourself and trust your intuition. That's— we'll absolutely listen to the wisdom of the 8-year-old, and we've listened to the wisdom of the present Janezba. And what I was kind of reflecting as a summary for our conversation, Janezba, is that, A, to all the listeners who are still with us about 40 minutes into the conversation, trust yourself and trust your intuition. But if you're someone who's seeking deep connection, stop avoiding the conversations you must have with yourself, and with people around you. The state of passionate intimacy is a state of growth, is a state of euphoria, is a state of living your orgasmic life. And it's got something to do with sex, but not everything to do with sex.

Right.

It's much more, much deeper than that when you deeply connect. And if you're still here, what I would nudge you and urge you, what Janeya has given us like a million-dollar exercise, is to go find your partner right now. Now and sit without your phone, without any background noises and the chaos of life, without the thought of paying the bills. Just look into their eyes and just be present. Just feel loved. Just experience whatever emotions are going to flow through that idea and stop avoiding the conflict because time's not going to heal the conflict. Time's going to only put a few more layers of sand above it so that the conflict gets worried, but it'll lead to things that you don't want in your relationship. Remember that sex and intimacy are part of that relationship and are absolutely important for you to continue on that deep connection and that journey that you're taking with, with your partner. The relationship is not going to take care of itself. You will have to put in the hard work. You'll have to, have to, have to, have to make your relationship a priority, because otherwise life's going to come in the way, and your kids are going to come in the way. You'll become parents, you will have aging parents, you'll have all the challenges of the world, and you'll forget about each other, which is not a good place to be. And as we get to that 8-year-old, Janae, remember, everything's going to be okay. All you need, all you need is to be loved and liked, and that's about it.

Love it. Nice summary there.

Thank you. Thank you for all the beautiful thoughts that you've shared, Janae. Thoroughly enjoyed. Anyone who wants to get in touch, all the links for Janae are in the show notes. Go take that intimacy quiz, go read that book, and you will love it. Go build your orgasmic life is what Jenné and I are saying. Jenné, anything before we end the episode?

Yeah, I mean, I wanna say, remember that pleasure is your birthright, that we're all, we're born to experience pleasure, and vulnerability is the pathway to really deeper happiness and connection.

Love that. If you're listening to us on a podcast platform, platforms, share this episode with someone who you think will enjoy this. At least share it with your partner because then you might have good sex. If you're on YouTube, if you're on YouTube, uh, comment. Let us know what resonated with you because Janai and I are looking for it. This conversation is not for everyone, so don't share it on your social medias yet until— unless you feel you have a community that's going to value this deep conversation. This is Utkarsh and Janai signing off.