Ep. 1: Welcome to the Pub Date Podcast

Welcome to the Pub Date Podcast, the show where two book broads discuss what should happen before, during, and after your book publication date. Brought to you by Broad Book Group with your host Vanessa Campos and Jen Dorsey.

Well, this isn't either one of those two people. This is Paul Roberts with OC Talk Radio. Inviting, welcoming Vanessa Campos and Jen to our station here and their first show. Welcome, Book Broads!

Thank you.

Yeah, thank you so much for inviting us and allowing us to have this moment on OC Talk Radio.

I feel like I'm going to get smacked down by the whole audience. Here's this old white guy calling a couple of younger women Book Broads. Hey, it's a couple of Book Broads here. I feel like I'm back in the Mad Men era here. Why do you think of yourselves as Book Broads here? What's a Book Broad?

You know what, Paul? A Book Broad is a publishing professional, a woman in publishing who is just giving you that good, tough, tough love advice. We're like your friends. You're going to sit down and have a cocktail with us, and we're going to give you the straight dope on publishing.

I love it. Well, because I think there's a lot of misconceptions. What do you think, Vanessa Campos Campos Campos Campos? What's a Book Broad to you?

I have to agree with Jen. I think that, you know, I've been in book publishing for much less time than Jen, but I love the camaraderie around it. We always get together at conventions and we're always, you know, trading secrets, what's happened, what hasn't happened. And I love that it's always, almost always, you know, with a cocktail.

And it's truth-telling. It's, it's telling the real facts because too many of us think that writing a book it's just going to be fun and easy. Don't we all have a book to tell, or so we think? And so we sit down to write it and then we find out it's really hard work. What do you, what do you think, Jen? You've worked with editors a lot.

Yes. So, you know, I've been, I've been in the game for a very long time, over 20 years, and I've seen a lot and a lot of people who have a lot of misconceptions about what publishing is. And it is not easy. It's a very challenging road to take. It's a very worthwhile road, very rewarding road. But there's just a lot there. There's a lot to know about book publishing, and unfortunately not a lot of information out there that's consistent or reliable. So I think that's kind of what we're trying to do here for folks.

Okay, well, we got a couple of real Book Broads here. They're going to tell you the real tough truth about what it takes to get a book published today. Here, give us some background. Vanessa Campos, let's start with you. Where did you come from and how did you— you don't look like a Book Broad. You don't look like some tough, swaggering, cigar-smoking editor like I pictured in all the dime store novels here.

Well, you're right. I actually come from a marketing agency background. I've always loved books. Actually, I like to call myself an English literature dropout. That was my first major in college until I realized, hmm, not so much.

Yeah.

You know, one of the things that I really loved about book publishing was being able to tell a story having it just be kind of like an archive that lives on forever. I come from business books, so your book should definitely feed into your business. It should serve you into your business, into speaking engagements. I loved using the book as a product, and in terms of marketing, it was just the ultimate get. It got you in, you know, as an author, it gets you into those speaking conferences, and it's just like this magic wand that you're able to do. I say this, it's a magic wand, but Jen does all the heavy lifting.

She's the magician here. How you just wave the wand, she's the one that's in the back room making the wand work here. I gotta stop you because there's a lot in that. We're gonna talk about what to expect in the show. She rattled off 4 or 5 things here, and I just gotta point a couple of them out here. A book is an archive of a conversation or your thoughts. It doesn't go away, kind of like what we're doing now. This in a way is much like a book. And I always say the popularity of podcasts is the same as the popularity of audiobooks. We're stuck in a place, in a space. We can't watch, we can't read. So tell me a story. How do you help people tell stories, Jen?

I think really just finding their voice and finding their message and what they want to say. Our goal always when we edit books, and I think any editor would tell you this, is to not necessarily tell them what their idea should be, but help them say it in a way that is unique and authentic and it reaches the most people and is the most successful message that it can be. That's the goal I think that we all have when we go into a book project, you know, no matter what phase you work at in the publishing continuum, right? You know, whether you're marketing or whether you're an editor, that's what you want to get for those people. You want to help them tell their story in a true real way.

And we have this all the time with these programs that we produce, these radio shows and podcasts. Business people want to come in and just tell the first chapter, the happy story. It was easy. I came up with an idea and now I'm a success. The end. Well, no, if there's no struggle, there's no change. And if there's no change, there's no story, right? How do you get people to be honest and tell stories in the world of business?

I think whether you're doing business books or self-help or any of the nonfiction categories, which is really Vanessa Campos and I both come from as a background, there's a saying that I love and people apply it to a lot of different things. And the saying is no mess, no butterfly. And that's absolutely—

say that again. No mess. No, I never heard it quite like that. No mess, no butterfly. Yeah.

That's right. You know, you have to go through that pupa stage and you've got to crawl.

You got to crawl, look like a worm and feel that you're worthless like a bug here. Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. And, and so when I lead any kind of writer that I'm working with, whether, you know, whether it's a business book or whether it's a self-help book or even some of the other kinds of titles that I've worked with in the past, like technology books, they all tell a story. They just tell it in a slightly different language. And so helping folks find that language is, is what I do and what I love to do. And I've done for many years.

So Vanessa Campos said another hot button I'm sure you're going to talk about, not only is it capturing and archiving the story, and making it a real story and not just an infomercial or a biography. I did this, I did this, I did this, the end of the story. Well, what did I learn from that? There's no journey, there's no growth, there's no change, there's no nothing, there's no takeaway, there's no learning moment that I can get from this. But the other thing Vanessa said is, buzzword of the day, authentic, real, genuine. Vanessa, how do you get them to be real? They don't want to really tell you the story. I'm the business person, I got all the answers. I can't pretend I'm vulnerable or weak or uncertain? How do you get them to be real and authentic?

Vanessa Campos Campos Campos— You got to give them a drink!

It's so simple. It really is. It's so simple. Loosen them up here but loosen them up.

But one of the big things that's trending is well it was trending a few years ago is the fail-up and the conversation about exposing your vulnerabilities. And as Jen and I were talking about doing this podcast we were very much nervous like Well, this is kind of exposing.

Yeah, but very much so.

Yeah, it's the connection that you can make as an author to the reader that's going to help them move forward and, you know, take that next step. If they are looking in terms of marketing and social media, I know that I'm thinking about our PR—

so you're already thinking ahead of the story. Just tell me honestly, you're trying to think, wait a minute now, I gotta frame this. How could I— I was just going to look in Twitter and Facebook and everything. You already It's really just being in the moment and being vulnerable and being real because we really want to hear from real people these days. We don't want to hear from fake process shows that want to edit these things to death and they're perfect. They're perfectly boring. They're perfectly unbelievable. Letting yourself be seen as having some vulnerabilities, as not having all the answers, that's when we really start to relate to one another. Don't you think, Jen? What do you think of that? About that.

I agree. And I think if the past year has taught us anything, it is that, that everybody is vulnerable and it's OK to be that.

Yeah.

And it's OK to share that. And people have really been sharing their vulnerabilities very widely in the last year, whether that's on social media or whether that's on a Zoom call where you say, you know what, I'm just not going to wear the makeup today.

Yeah.

Right. And I think that really, if anything good has come out of the last year, it's that we're showing each other that those stories are valuable. And they matter to people. And so—

And we can relate to them. I can't relate to successful people quite often because they have no vulnerabilities. They're Superman. They can do it, but I can't. I can't relate to book publishing because you make it sound so easy and it feels so hard to me. I guess I'm an idiot. I'm the only one that can't do this. How do you bring people into a comfort, not just a comfort, but a commitment to carry through? Because when it gets tough, you quit. Quit, right, Jenna?

Yes. And that's something that's so common with, with writers that I've worked with over the years. It does, it gets hard. It gets hard to, to reach those vulnerable points and to put them on the page. And so just letting them know that they have an advocate in their editor or in their publisher or in their marketing person really is important. I think that's what we all kind of strive to do in this business is to make sure that people know as they're writing, you don't have to be perfect at it from the jump.. You just don't. That's what we're here for. And so sharing that vulnerability with us helps make it more authentic on the page for sure.

So Vanessa Campos Campos, be vulnerable here. What's your hardest part in the process? Where do you struggle? Is it in telling the story? Is it in being open and honest? Is it making them feel comfortable that you're going to go out and market this right and not make them look foolish? Where's the fear points for you in the book journey here?

I think my biggest fear is, you know, once Jenn has actually gotten them to be vulnerable, is whether or not they're willing to take it that step further and adding that vulnerability on their social media channels.

Yeah.

Are they willing to tell that story as it's happening? Most of the time, once the book is done, they feel like it's a polished thing. I'm ready to go when I'm— You know, I'm thinking and I'm talking to them and I'm saying, no, you gotta share your struggle. You gotta share, you know, writing a book is hard. It's very hard.

Exactly. And you've got to, the story continues. 'Cause it is, I think we all think of this as a once and done product. I did it, I never have to revisit that again. No, you gotta go out and promote it. You gotta work at it. You gotta use it to tell your story. So Vanessa, how do you market a book in 30 seconds? I just wanna know all the answers right now. We don't have to listen to the rest of the show. I want you to give me, All the answers to marketing a book in 30 seconds, or tell me some of the pain points.

You always have to make sure that you are telling people and reminding them that you are the author of. Do you know how often I have to remind authors to include that in their messaging, to include that in their signature? Once they've written the book and they've actually put it on paper, they've gone through the pain of, and love and hard work of editorial, and it's ready to go. They just stop saying that they're the authors of.

Really? They abandon their children. They, they, they deny that I ever even had anything to do with this creation here, huh?

It's almost as if they think that once it's done, if they build it, people will come. And that doesn't, that does not work.

Why do you think that is, Vanessa Campos? I don't want to be seen as bragging. People in movies, I don't want to go out and promote my movie. I don't want to go out and promote my book. I don't want to promote my podcast here. Why? You took the effort to tell this story. It's a beautiful story. Why do you then want to step back and say, it's on its own now here. I have nothing to do. I created this child and there, go off into the world and figure it out.

Authors get the sense that it's now somebody else's job. They've written it. They've put it out there. Someone will find it. And I feel like it's not just a traditional publishing problem. It's also an indie publishing problem, a self-publishing problem.

Yeah.

Just because you put it on Amazon does not mean that anyone is going to find it. I read a statistic that there's about 4,500 books that get published every single day in the US.

Every single day there's 4,500 books that get published? Oh my goodness, how could I ever find that one I'm looking for in a sea of titles like that?

Well, and that's what we're here for. We're here to help you get through that and We've been through this so many times with hundreds of books, and it's really what we love to do. We love to find out what other books have done to help stand out in that big sea of market, and we just have to continue the work, and it's constant. It's not, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon.

It's a marathon. All right, let's go back to a sprint. Give me a sprint summary of what you've done in the past, Vanessa Campos Campos Campos. I know you've worked for some big book publishing outfits. I don't know if you want to name them or not, but Give us some idea of your background in books. You didn't just come to this yesterday.

No. So I actually started off as a marketing specialist. So I'm based in Southern California. And for most of you guys who are, you know, interested in book publishing, there's not a lot of book publishers out here. So I found one. I started off from the bottom. I learned everything that you need to know in terms of getting an LCCN. That's a library control number for your book.

Oh my goodness. I got to have one of those. Okay.

All right. You got to have one of those to, you know, filing the copyright for your book. Book. I got into the how to negotiate an agreement for acquisitions. I learned how to manage inventory. I learned the difference in paper stock. So I've been through it all.

Paper stock? I got to think about what kind of paper I'm going to put this on? Oh boy, this isn't fun anymore here.

Well, it is fun for me, so that's, that's a plus.

That's why you're here.

You've got me.

All right, and Jen, give us your 30-second summary. What, what have you done? You've been an editor, bunch of big places here. Again, you don't have to list them all here, but just give us some idea of your background.

Sure. So Vanessa and I kind of like to say that we are— we're like bookends. Uh, I've been in the business for about 20 years.

Bookends. Okay.

We are. Yeah. I started a long time ago in the late '90s and I started for a very, very small book publishing company. I was a journalism major in college, so I wanted to be the news lady and that did not pan out. And it also didn't pay anything. Uh, so I, like everybody, like everybody else in book publishing, I sort of just landed there and was really lucky to have a tiny, tiny company to work for. So I did everything. I mean, I shipped books, I acquired books, I did the marketing and learned from the ground up. And then I went on to work for, for publishers, both large and small over the, over the next 20-some years. And, and here we are.

But you gravitated or into being the editor. What does an editor do? An editor's function is so misunderstood, and I'll preface it by saying I remember reading— who was the great editor whose name escapes me? Max somebody here.

Perkins.

Max Perkins, who helped— didn't he work with like Hemingway or people like— I mean, whoever it was, maybe it's F. Scott Fitzgerald, somebody, people like that, that this guy helped. And they all said, my book wouldn't have been what it was without him and a red pen scratching all this stuff out here. Talk about the role of an editor.

An editor is a midwife for your book baby. And it's, you know, we really help get you through that painful part of the process. And there are various kinds of editors. Uh, smaller houses, you know, you might do all of the editorial functions. In a bigger house, you might just do the developmental editing, which is sort of the high-level stuff, or you might just do the copy editing. So, you know, an editorial team looks different no matter where you go, but we really help usher that book shepherd that book through the writing and editing process so that it can then go on to be designed and turn into the wonderful product that then folks like Vanessa Campos Campos Campos get to go out and market.

Well, again, I think it's the one part of the puzzle— I think you both represent parts of the puzzle that most authors don't recognize or really value. One is, I'm gonna take my story and just hand it to you. I sweat bullets over this, and you're like, yeah, but it doesn't make sense, or be better if it was this way, or cut this part out. I can't. This is my baby. You're chopping this thing up. This is my story. I know, but you're not telling it well. And then once you get it put together, you got to figure out how to tell the world, I'm here and here's what it is. It doesn't just sell itself. So you guys have what, created this company now here called Broad Book Group. I keep wanting to confuse it with Book Broads here. Broad Book Group. Tell me about this company. Why did you start it? And what does it do? We'll start with Vanessa Campos Campos Campos.

As Jen and I have talked about over a lot of cocktails and a lot of conversations at a lot of conferences, you know, our experience in publishing has always been something that is led by a P&L, profit and loss. And that's always not necessarily the best way to go about sharing those authentic stories.

Right.

So we thought, you know, we could do this, we could do this, and we could do it better. Jen and I were discussing how, you know, at the end of the day, we are a woman-owned collective of publishing professionals.

Yeah.

And we all have the same goal, you know, in order to create and write and publish better books. And where our focus is really on women and marginalized voices, because those are the voices that we wouldn't get a chance to published from a traditional perspective because we always have to look at the bottom line. But you know what? Publishing is fun and it needs to be fun and we need more voices. And, you know, sometimes just because an author has a great platform doesn't mean that there isn't a counterpart, a woman out there, a person of color, another voice out there that may have a smaller platform but can say it better. And they actually have been doing the work and they have receipts to back them up.

The receipts to back it up. Well, I think you've got the receipts to back up what you guys do here. You've got the sweat and toil. You're willing to tell it to us straight like a couple of book broads here. We're not going to polish this up and pretty it up here. We're going to tell it to you. Tough talk, tough love, straight from the hip, straight from our experience, but with some love and hope that we can bring some others' voices to the forefront here. What kind of voices are we going to hear from in the coming months as we tune into this show? We'll start with Jen. Who do you anticipate bringing in?

We are going to have a nice parade of other publishing pros like ourselves who are dedicated to this collective and what we're, we're trying to accomplish here. So we are going to have chats with other editors. We're going to talk to book designers to talk about what makes a book look good, what helps it sell. Cover designers.

We all know that cover designers— I never even think there are cover designers in the book industry. Oh my goodness.

Yeah, absolutely. And everybody wants to know what makes a great book cover. How do you— what makes a person decide to buy a book? We're gonna talk about that. Yeah, and just some of those tips and tricks and secrets of the trade that we really think people should know that'll help them in their own journey.

Well, Jennifer Campos, I hope you bring all those people and more. And Vanessa Campos, I hope you bring some vulnerable people in who are gonna say, I didn't really have all the answers, I sort of figured it out. We gonna see some people like that in here too? Is this just a lecture series or is this a let's let our hair down and get real series here? What do you think, Vanessa? Are we gonna get real or are we just gonna reel off a series of tips and tricks for you here?

Oh no, we're gonna bring in people who have been published both traditionally and, you know, self-published. And we wanna know what they loved about being published through a big five versus being published on their own. What they learned, what they wish they had known before.

Exactly.

And we want those people, those voices to tell, you our audience, our listeners.

And maybe even what they hated about it, what they didn't understand, what they didn't expect, what they wish they could tell others, look out for this, don't be fooled by this, or be prepared for this. Yeah.

Names will be changed to protect the innocent and guilty. But yes.

I hope so. This is starting to sound like a crime novel or a murder mystery or something here. We got a couple of detectives here on the case and they're gonna uncover The Real Story Behind Book Publishing. Well, I look forward to hearing it because I can tell you from personal experience, I wish I'd written a book. Everybody I know that has a platform or has any sort of successful business secretly wishes they could write a book. And yet we're all intimidated by the process. We're all unsure of what to do next. And we all wish we knew a couple of people who could guide us along the way here. Welcome your inclusion on the station. I look forward to hearing the conversations. Tell us one last thing here. What is the one thing that you learned about book publishing, Jen, that you didn't expect? That if you could tell everybody, well, everybody, here's what's the one misconception that we gotta break right now here. Think about that.

Oh, wow. The one misconception is that you can retire off of your book. You cannot. You cannot. I'm so sorry. I'm gonna break it to you.

Gently, gently here. This isn't— you're not going to go to an island and— all right, Vanessa Campos Campos Campos, you're on the spot. Take us out here. Give us some misconception that you'd like to bust a myth here right now.

If you write it, they won't come. I keep going back to that, and I would like that on my gravestone. If you write it, they won't come.

Sorry, they won't come. That's it. So that's the opposite of— I say if you write it, they will come. I assume that if I just put these pearls of wisdom down, everybody will find them. But you're saying the fear is the opposite. If I write it, nobody will read it.

Yeah.

I mean, you will have to start marketing the book the second you start writing the book.

Yeah, exactly.

And it's, it's gotta be constant.

Because if you're not willing to shepherd it and guide it along, then why give birth to it at all here? Right?

Exactly.

Exactly.

Okay. Well, you've given birth to something real special here. We've been wanting to do a book show for a long time. Tell us how they reach you guys and, uh, if they want to learn more about the Broad Book Group? We'll start with Jen. How do they reach you guys?

You can check out our website at broadbookgroup.com, and we are on all the socials. You can find us.

Okay, and we'll end with the marketing person here. Take us out, give us some of those socials, and tell us more about how they can connect with you guys, Vanessa, here.

Yeah, find us on social media. We are building our own brand. We are putting our money where our mouth is. So @BroadBookGroup. On all socials. And if you have any questions, you are more than welcome to reach out to me. My email is Vanessa, V-A-N-E-S-S-A, at broadbookgroup.com.

Okay, there you heard it from a couple of dedicated book broads who aren't afraid to tell you the truth. This is going to run twice a month here on OC Talk Radio. I hope people will tune in, send in and ask questions too, because this really is a confusing process, more so today than ever. I'll leave you with this. I know that in the old days, book publishers did it all. You begged to get in like a record company, and then if they accepted you, they did everything. They helped write it, promote it, and push it. It ain't that easy anymore, I don't think, anymore, right? It's a whole different world. You gotta almost start and prove to them that you have a product and an audience before they'll even listen to you, it seems like today. So we're gonna help build that audience and grow it for you guys here. Thank you and welcome to OC Talk Radio.

Thank you.

Thank you.

We hope that you gained some valuable insights into the world of book publishing. Head over to broadbookgroup.com to learn more about us and all our services, and be sure to check out all our social media @BroadBookGroup. Until then, keep publishing.