Ep. 12: Mailbag Episode: Your Burning Publishing Questions Answered

Welcome to the Pub Date Podcast, the show where two book broads discuss what should happen before, during, and after your book publication date. Brought to you by Broad Book Group with your host Vanessa Campos and Jen Dorsey.

Hello, hello, favorite people of mine out there in the universe, and right here with Jen and Paul. How are you guys doing today? Amazing.

Amazing.

I'm doing good. Do I get to say something today here? Oh my goodness, you do. Hey, Paul speaks, but just for a second. So you guys are going to do a work show that we've long, longed for. You answer specific questions one at a time. I got a whole bunch of them. We get mail all the time here now, email. We've even got some old-fashioned mail, I think, here. People wanted all sorts of questions about— that's what you're going to talk about today, right? We're going to go into the mailbag.

We are. We're going to dive headfirst into the old mailbag and see what we can answer for people. People have burning publishing questions.

They really do.

Yes.

And before you do that, I know that sounds silly, but I know I'm 100 years old, so I remember back when book publishing was a lot different. And it is a lot different than it was in those days, not that long ago. You wrote a proposal, you begged some big publisher to do it, you sent it to 100 publishers, and then they would say yes, and then they would take it and do all this. They might even send you a little check along the way. None of that stuff works that way anymore, from what I can understand.

No, sir, it is a brand new world. It's a whole new world with tons of options and Yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot to unpack. So no wonder people have questions.

Well, let's jump right into it. I'm going to jump off the screen. Go for it. Tell us what's, what's hot. What's, what's the hot list? What's the hot question these days in the burning mailbag here?

Stomp out the mailbag. Um, so Jen, you and myself, I think you have had to deal with this a little bit more because, you know, you've been in You've most recently been in traditional publishing. I've had the opportunity of working with indie publishers or indie book authors. And so the way that we look at the whole chain relationship is a little bit different because we don't have to carry inventory. But COVID has hit hard everywhere. No one is safe, obviously. But I think for us in book publishing, we've seen anybody who prints abroad in China. I live out here in Huntington Beach, and you could see the Port of Long Beach and all of the cargo ships that are just kind of waiting to come in. And what's weird about that is, like, like, I know there's a good number of books out there, so that's been like a really big topic. And I know editors are talking about, you know, my author's book is now being pushed 2 months, 3 months, 6 months, 9 months. That supply chain is really getting hard and heavy.

It really is. And I think before we dive into, into mail questions, that's a good thing for us to talk about very quickly, which is the supply chain, which people don't always think about. When you go into a bookstore, you see all these books and you don't really question how they got there, right? So yes, the supply chain is killing everybody. In every industry, but definitely in books because, like you said, there's a paper shortage. People are understaffed at printers.

Yes.

Things aren't getting where they need to be on time. So a lot of books are getting pushed out. So if you want to buy your holiday books, get yourself to the bookstore now and get it taken care of because things are slowing down. I think a lot of fall pubs are going to get pushed to winter 2022 without a doubt. Yes.

And if you want to support your favorite authors and you know that they're coming out with a book, preorder the book now. October is the new December, and it's really the right time in terms of getting all those Christmas presents because we all want books as Christmas presents. And I don't want an ebook. I want a physical, beautiful book. But yeah, support your local bookstores, support your authors, and just put the money down now. And that really goes a long way.

It does. And I don't know that people realize this, but when they preorder a book, that also helps the publisher make decisions about how big of a print run they're going to do and how many books they do have to send to a warehouse. So you are helping everybody by preordering your books. So there, there is our soapbox for the day. Go and preorder your books.

Yes, and visit Bookshop.org. Yeah, it's a really important place, especially for any indie bookstores that may not have that e-commerce capability. So anyway, yes, um, that actually puts us into a really good mindset to talk about what the first question that we always get is: how do I set my expectations for how long it takes to publish a book?

That's the question for the ages. That's a good one. That's a good one to start with. And you're right, the supply chain thing is definitely related because all of that stuff that happens after the book is sent to the printer, all that stuff takes time. But then there's all the stuff you have to do before it that takes time too. So I think it really depends on what kind of publishing you're gonna do. Don't you think?

Yeah. I know that as a self-published author, you think, you know, the ability, not that you think, but the ability to get your book into the hands of readers is pretty turnkey with KDP. But what I think that that does is that it kind of, it takes you out at, you know, from actually promoting the book, from getting the buzz out, from sending traffic to that landing page and doing all the things that the traditional publishers are doing to kind of get that buzz out and doing preorders and sending out digital advance review copies of the book to long-lead media, which is like, yes, magazines still exist and they do take about 6 months to even look at and consider publishing your, your, your content because just like books, they're also working on an editorial calendar that's way ahead into the future. So I think that if you're— it all depends on your goals, I guess.

Right. Yeah. And for people who are just joining us who have not heard us talk about KDP before, that is Amazon's Kindle Direct Publishing, right? Did I get all those right? Yes. Right. So that's like kind of just putting your book out there in ebook form or print-on-demand form and whatever you send them is what it is. So there's no editorial. I mean, you have to bring it ready. Ready to rock and roll. So yeah, I think if you want to do something like that, sure, it's fast, but you miss out on all the cool stuff that you get to do and that you need to do really to promote and get your book in front of more audiences. Because KDP is only on Amazon, right? So you can't sell it anywhere else.

Exactly. So even if— one of the big things that you and I have been talking about when we talk to people who are interested in moving away from traditional publishing is We like to bring that mindset to your indie published project or your hybrid published project because there's no reason that you can't compete and do all the cool things that a big traditional publisher does. You should be able to do those. You should be able to pitch stores, especially your local stores. That's the way that Barnes Noble, now that they're under Waterstones, Yes, the former head of Waterstones is now running B&N. Yes.

And doing very well at it, by the way.

Yes. So what he's doing is that he's shifting everything and, you know, really taking the time to see what sells in that location's backyard. So hyper-local selling is important. And that's really good for authors of any publishing model to be able to say, hey, I'm in your backyard and I wrote this book. So you can't really do that if you don't plan ahead. I would say on the safe side, I, as a marketing person helping you publish your book and get it to market, I would want at least 6 months before your publication date. And I can work in tandem with Jen as she's working through like the tail end of her work with you as an editorial. But I would want 6 solid months of being able to say, hey, let's figure out a game plan. Who are you talking to already? So that's 6 months for me. How about for you on editorial?

Gosh, you know, so many people come to the table with, with the books partially written or just mapped out, which is fine. I love to work with people early. So I love to work with people to kind of help them do that initial development and make sure the table of contents really sings and it it says all the things that they want it to say and that it's organized well. So you have to think about your writing schedule first. Most people who write a nonfiction book are gonna crank it out in maybe 6, 3 to 6 months. Now, some people take longer, and if you do take longer to write it, that's totally fine. But I think once they are signed with a hybrid publisher or an indie or traditional publisher, the expectation is it's going to take them around that much time to write. Some publishers give you longer, they'll give you a year to do just the writing piece. But in my experience, I found that it's really easy for people to walk away from it and not get it done and kind of, kind of procrastinate maybe a little bit. So I think that 3 to 6 months for the writing is really important. And then for the editorial, probably 3 to 4 months. So I like to do a really good heavy developmental phase with folks where We sit down, we look at it, we reorganize things, we tear it all apart, put it all back together, and, and make those chapters in the order they need to be. Paragraphs have great transitions. That takes about 4 to 6 weeks to do the development piece. Then we dig into the copy edit part, which is another maybe 4 weeks because the copy editor needs a couple weeks. Then they want to kick it back to the author so the author can look at it and answer queries. And then there's kind of that final week where they do the buttoning up of all of it. So I would say a good 2 to 3 months probably for the editorial part after the book is written is what I would consider ideal.

So we're looking 9 to 12 months.

It's a book baby. It's book baby. That's right.

And really, it got me thinking about when you would actually reach out to somebody like Broad Book Group, somebody like another hybrid publisher, in terms of when you bring someone into that process. And you should start thinking about that way before you consider all of these things. So you need a publishing partner before you think that you need one.

I would agree with that 100% because they— whoever you work with, if you're working with really great professionals who have you know, excellent credentials, they are going to bring knowledge to the table that you don't have as an author. You may know your topic incredibly well, but not everybody is a book publishing person, right? So that's why you're relying on experts, expert editors, and expert marketing people to shepherd you through all of these processes because there's so many moving parts. I don't think people realize how many people touch your book by the time it shows up at Barnes Noble, right? I mean, it's a village, it's a community effort to create this great product. And you as the author are obviously the linchpin for all of it. But then there are all of these other spokes on the wheel that help you make this one big beautiful tire, I guess, right? That make you, that help you make this product. And so you've got to kind of keep in mind All of those voices are vital and important. The earlier the better, I think.

I agree. And I want to throw a monkey wrench into that tire because the other thing that I was thinking about is what if, you know, you work with somebody who is doing a white label packaging and you want to create your own imprint? But you got to think about that a lot, a lot earlier on because with an imprint you need to register. You need to create a logo. You need to get ISBNs. All of these things are, you know, they're easy to do enough on your own if you take the time and research it. But you could also work with a hybrid publisher that is knowledgeable in doing that and is able to kind of create something that is intended for you to kind of continue on and live on. Because as an indie author, you're essentially the publisher. So you should think about those things.

Yeah, for sure. And I would say if you're going— if you envision more than one book happening, then you should consider doing your own little imprint and having someone white label it for you so that you are the press of whatever topic area it is. And yeah, that's a whole other conversation. Then we're talking all kinds of lead times. You know, how do you want to drip these books out? Do you want to do one a year? Well, then that can kind of help you set your intentions for that expectation of how long it takes. Do you want to do a couple of books a year, or do you really want to make it a long tail thing and do it like every other year? So if you're doing— going the imprint route, then there's a lot to think about, for sure.

Yeah, it kind of is like this mushroom cloud and it just keeps imploding on itself the more you think about it. And I love to geek out, geek out on it. I, I love every part of it. And I think that's my ops mind kind of putting it together and putting all the pieces together and putting the production schedule together. And that's a lot, um, even for me when it comes to putting that, um, all of that mapping in place. But I, I wouldn't want to do that by myself as a novice, right?

Yeah, there's just so much. There's a lot there.

So burning question number 2, we got this one and we get this one a lot, I think. When someone tells me I need an editor, what does that mean?

Oh, that can mean so many things. Oh wow, let's dig into that. It kind of is adjacent to the first question, which was how long does this all take, um, right? When someone tells you you need an editor, number one, please do not be offended. We all need an editor. We all need somebody else to look at our work. I mean, even you and I send things to each other every week, right?

Yes, absolutely.

Like, please look at this blog post. Does it make sense? So I think kind of go into your writing with an open heart. Or constructive criticism. Uh, I'm gonna put that on a t-shirt. When someone says though you need an editor, it really depends. It depends on where you are in the process. So for example, if you're gonna be working with a hybrid publisher or self-publishing, then you're going to want an editor to help you do that development piece, to help you make sure that all of the moving parts are there, that you don't have any content holes, that the book is a viable book idea and it's enough to be a book, right? Because sometimes we have really great ideas and it turns out maybe they're only big enough to be a magazine article or they're only big enough to be a blog post because there's not a whole lot to say about them. So developmental editor will help you ascertain whether your topic is big enough but yet is in a nice little niche so that it's unique. It's a really fine line that you have to walk, and I think a dev editor does that work really, really well. So, um, that's one way that you could use an editor. If you've already got the book written and you feel comfortable and confident with that structure, and maybe you've had some feedback from colleagues or other subject matter experts who have affirmed what is there in the book, maybe you just need a copy edit at that point if you're going to self-publish. A copy editor really narrows the funnel down even more. So they are going to look at line editing, they're going to look at paragraph-level editing, making sure that sentences make sense and your word choice is right and there's logic in how you have put sentences in paragraphs. They're really going to drill down. So that's what the copy edit is. And then finally, proofreading is really— that happens at the end. Once you've got that book into designed pages and it looks like a real book, then a proofreader is really just looking for the absolute must-fix things. At that point, they are not moving big sections of the book around or flip-flopping chapters. They're just really making sure that there aren't typos. So those are really the 3 levels, and I think you need to decide where you are in the process before you make a determination on what you need. Ultimately, you need all three at some point in the process. It just depends on where you are and where you start.

I like that you mentioned that because I was going to say, what if you think you don't need a dev edit and then you ask for a copy edit and then it's like a screeching halt?

That happens. That happens a lot. Yeah. It does. It really does. If that happens to you, I would say that's a really good sign that you need to listen. You need to listen to the copy editor who says, "Whoa, I think you need development help before I take this on." And again, it's really hard to not feel a little hurt because maybe you're feeling really positive about what you wrote. And it's not that it's not good. It's just that it needs help shining a light on your message even more. So, um, I would say just, just be open to the feedback, be open to the possibilities, and don't be afraid to take a step back. You know, just because you think you're at copy edit stage does not mean that you can't put on the brakes and say, whoa, I'm going to take this back a minute, I'm going to have a dev editor look at it, I'm going to rethink this. Because if you're doing hybrid publishing or if you're doing self-publishing, it's your show when it comes to the timeline, really. And so that's fine. And even if you're with a traditional publisher and they feel like, okay, we need to put on the brakes a little bit, while it's really more up to them what the schedule looks like and when the book comes out, they are not going to want to put a book out there that isn't ready. And so I think we've both been in that experience working traditionally, right, where we've had to put on the brakes for the greater good of the book. So just remember that everybody's on the same page about wanting to have a great book. And if that means you have to take a pause, no, that's what it means.

And that's okay because we've gotten book manuscripts that we thought were timely and then something happens, technology changes or some major event happens in the industry that you're in, and, and it's worthwhile to stop and, and reevaluate, you know, what, what the goals are now versus what they were when the book was acquired. So I'm curious to hear what you think on this, because at— well, you and I were working together, we basically said we're going to, as a traditional publisher, we're going to, um, go in and help you with the dev edit and the copy edit. So that was just kind of all, um, all part of the show that we ran, and we still do now, but it is a little bit more à la carte depending on where you are in your, in your book proposal. Is that something that if you're going into a traditional publishing model that an author should assume that they're going to get a dev editor from the publisher?

Well, I always like to say never make any assumptions when you're negotiating with anybody, right?

Right.

Most larger traditional publishers do provide that as part of, as part of the deal. But I would ask the question, and when you're negotiating that book contract, I would make sure that you understand what their process looks like. Because it's not necessarily universal. I mean, for the most part it is, but we all do things a little bit differently. And so maybe to one publisher, a development edit means that they're just gonna have a reader read it and give you some feedback. To another publisher, it might mean, okay, this person's really gonna dig in and put lots of comments in, in your Word document and send you queries, and it's gonna be very hands-on. So it really just depends on how they do business.

So be sure you ask.

Yes.

Put together all of your book questions on the process before that meeting and just come in. They should be able to answer all of them. Yeah. So that part of the process then should lead us into the book cover. And that's another question. I need a book.

Yes. You need a book cover. Yes. I'm going to pitch this one to you because to me this is a bigger marketing question. So Our question is, I need a book cover, where do I start? What do I do? Yes.

Well, unless you're a graphic designer, you don't create the COVID yourself. I would suggest that you spend some time going through the bookstore shelves, taking a look at Amazon and Bookshop.org in your target category and seeing what is out there, what is selling. Amazon is really good at getting those star reviews and rankings in there, so you can kind of figure out where they sit in terms of likability. But there is a science to graphic design that I still don't understand. But I love working with our designer, Andrew Wiliczko, because he— every time he delivers a book cover and a concept, he gives us the rhyme and reason behind everything.

Right.

And I love it. But it is your first impression when it comes to reaching a new audience, even your own audience. You know, you go through and you share this book cover that you think is amazing. And then it just falls flat. And that's the worst because that means that nobody is going to click on it, buy it, read it. And even if your book has really great content, that's, that's the entry point. And if it's just garbage, then it's going to be assumed that your book is garbage, even if it isn't, right? So it is, it is an investment, and one that I would absolutely recommend that you spend the time and money researching a good graphic designer. You know, pick up the books that you like and then look inside the jacket. Who designed it? Are they freelance or are they working for that imprint? Most of them are freelance, super secret. Um, and then they, they have their websites and you can go in and reach out to them and say, hey, I'm working on this project, and see about working with them. Or a hybrid publisher will have a group of designers who are both skilled at interior design and the book cover design. And they are specific to your genre. So that's really important. Make sure that you do get it. Don't, don't go through KDP's CreateSpace thing and create your own. It's just, it's a, it's, it's a well-worth exercise to, to work with somebody who knows what they're doing.

Yeah, I would agree with that. And there's a difference between general graphic designers and people who do book covers and specialize in print design, whether they do magazines or books. But it's just a different kind of graphic design. It's not like— and that's not to say anything bad about more general graphic designers, but it's— you're right, it's a very specific skill, and you're speaking to a very specific audience. You're trying to get people to pick up the book, and there's a lot of theory behind how they make decisions on how to design a book cover. So, you know, you, I mean, you can jump on the bandwagon. The Malcolm Gladwell trend was, you know, a big one there. It's a white book cover. It's got one—

Yes.

It's got a lot of words and everybody under the sun did Malcolm Gladwell covers for a really long time. But what happened was they all started to look alike. So your book didn't stand out. A skilled graphic book designer is going to know how to harness the power of what works with audiences and how to get them to pick up that book. Absolutely.

And walk you through why you shouldn't have a Malcolm Gladwell cover unless you're Malcolm Gladwell.

Right. Exactly.

So we're kind of going through this entire process production-wise, editorial, and it's really making me think about the book proposal. And the book proposal is basically your business plan for your book. Your book is a business product. And the faster you, you think about that and the quicker that you get all your pieces in, all your ducks in a row, um, the easier it's going to be. So the book proposal is that big map that's going to walk you through every step It's going to give you the, the refinement of how you present your book, your short description, your elevator pitch, your sales pitch, your, your outline of your table of contents, even your marketing around that. Like, what are you planning on doing? You know, think about 6 months before. What can you do? What do you have in terms of content that you can start sharing and leaving that breadcrumb for your audience and even new audiences? So I think having a book proposal is really important regardless of whether or not you are going into a traditional publishing house, a hybrid publishing house, or self-publishing. What do you think, Jen?

I agree. And this is a question that we get all the time from people. Why do I need a book proposal if I'm just going to self-publish? What's the point? And it's just like Insert the words, why would I have a business proposal for my business? And that kind of answers the question for you, right? You wouldn't start a business without writing a business proposal of some kind, without mapping things out and coming up with a media strategy and a marketing plan and finances. And the book is your business, so why wouldn't you give it the same love that you would give any other business endeavor? And so I think even if you are never gonna shop it to a traditional house. This at least helps you wrap your brain around what's unique and different about your book, who your competition is, because doing competitive analysis is a big part of writing a book proposal, um, coming up with a way to talk about your book that's succinct and it's timely and that really helps sell it and helps sell the concept and helps differentiate it from the other books that are similar in the market. And it, it really does make you stop and take a look at your platform and think, okay, what can I bring to the table? How can I sell this book? Whether I'm going to go out there and do it on my own or whether I'm going to be working with a traditional or hybrid publishing partner. So to me, all of that is just really useful to do. It's almost like a self-assessment to make sure that you, in fact, are ready to take this journey. Because it is a journey. And if you just rely on word of mouth to sell your book, you are not going to get very far. You have got to be the driver of that marketing.

Yes. And I mean, like we talked about earlier, once you start considering all the different layers of things, what you thought was really simple and just writing a book, putting a cover on it and putting up on KDP can mushroom into a lot of different layers. And this will help you stay on track to the point where you can— you should write each section. And maybe at the end of each section, this is something we like to do in business books and, you know, nonfiction books. At the end of each section, have a checklist for yourself, you know, like, okay, I wrote this, this— who is my competition? What sets my book apart? And all of those things are going to help you think about who you're talking to in terms of your target audience. And who you're selling it to. Because maybe your book isn't intended for a wider audience, and maybe you want to talk to the American Marketing Association, you know, really get targeted in. And maybe there's a publishing opportunity there. So it really forces you to sit down and think about the book and its— and where it's going to live within your own organization, and where it— you think can live with somebody else's organization. So I think it's really, really valuable.

Um, one quick question for the book broads here as we wrap up: what is KDP? Somebody tweeted.

Is Kindle Direct Publishing.

Ah, okay.

Which was CreateSpace, which is Amazon's direct-to-consumer publishing channel.

Everybody tweeted in, she keep dropping these acronyms and nobody knew what it meant here.

Everyone needs to stop me. Yes, KDP is, is CreateSpace, essentially what it used to be, and it's that self-publishing model that Amazon rolled out because they wanted to make it easier for everybody to be able to bring out a book into the market.

Sounds like a future show. We got to wrap up here. What, what's your final takeaways?

All right, that's a good question. What are they? Um, get a good book designer. Make sure you understand how long it takes to publish a book and what your goals are and write your book proposal.

Yes.

Write it.

In fact, Jen created a really great course on how to write a winning book proposal. And it walks you through all of the different processes, all of the different steps, better yet, all the different parts that are important and vital to you thinking about the publishing model as a traditional publisher, even if you are self-published. Publishing. If you visit our website, you can go into BBG Publishing School and check out all of our courses. But this one is Writing the Winning Book Proposal. And if you're listening to this podcast, you can go in and enter in code BBG25 for a discount.

Perfect. Okay, that wraps us up. Take us out. All right.

Thank you so much to our wonderful producer, Paul Roberts. Who joined us today and popped in. And thank you to our executive producer, Emily Carpenter-Pulskamp of Little Red Communications. And we will see you next time. Have a great weekend.

We hope that you gained some valuable insights into the world of book publishing. Head over to broadbookgroup.com to learn more about us and all our services, and be sure to check out all our social media @BroadBookGroup. Until then, keep publishing!