Ep. 2: Can I Develop My Idea Into A Book?

Welcome to the Pub Date Podcast, the show where two book broads discuss what should happen before, during, and after your book publication date. Brought to you by Broad Book Group with your host Vanessa Campos and Jen Dorsey.

Hey everyone, I am Vanessa Campos, and I am Jen Dorsey. Welcome, welcome to the Broad Book Pub Date podcast.

I am so excited to be here today. Um, I would love the idea of starting it off— this is our inaugural podcast where we're really going to tell you what's what and what isn't in book publishing. So I wanted to start this, um, conversation with you, Jen, talking about the big idea for your book. And I think that both you and I have had a lot of great experience in acquisitions and reading through the slush pile and really getting a sense as to all the book ideas that are out there. But here's, here's my big question, and I'm sure you've gotten this from a lot of people who have volunteered their book idea, um, to you on a flight and in conversation when you tell them what you do. The big question is, is this a book?

Oh my goodness, that is, that is the biggest question. That is the biggest question. And I think today, as we join each other for our first inaugural podcast where we're talking about books, um, that's the big question on everybody's mind. Before we jump in, I just want to give a quick shout out to our producer Paul, who's here. He's gonna hold our hands through the process and make sure that we—

you guys are ready to fly. And when you're done, I got a book for you. Have I got a book for you? Oh, I suddenly realized I got a book. So is— that's a good question. Goodness, how do you know if it's a book? I don't know. I'm— now you got me curious.

We're going to uncover the mystery today of is it indeed a book. And you're right, Vanessa, I get that question all the time. I think because people hear what I do for a living, and it's, it's not like a super rare job, but not a lot of people do it, at least not where I live. And so that question always comes up. And of course, You know, the big question that they always follow up with is, "Will you read mine? Will you read my book and then tell me if it's a book?" So the answer is no, I don't want to. I'm really sorry, but I read all day for a living. But we can give you some really great tips today on trying to figure out the question on your own. Is it in fact a book? Let's kick off how we're going to talk about this. And I hate to do this, but I'm going to get academic for just a minute, and I promise I'll try really hard not to make it boring, okay? Um, but as Vanessa knows, and maybe our listeners don't know, I do have a PhD. I try to not, like, you know, fly it— fly a flag for it or anything, because, because lots of people have them. But I did get my PhD in rhetoric, and so I love to talk rhetoric all the time. So we're going to kind of approach this question today using something called the rhetorical triangle. Vanessa? Have you heard of the rhetorical triangle?

I have not. I have not. And when you said it, I was like, oh, we can apply some type of science to this. Love it.

Oh, we're going to get— we're going to get academic and we'll— again, we'll do our best not to make it like super boring academic-y. But if you've taken a freshman composition class, you probably talked about the rhetorical triangle and our good friend Aristotle. Do we know Aristotle?

You know, we know Aristotle.

We know him. He's great. He's great. We had drinks with him. He's fab. I love him. But Aristotle came up with this kind of way to persuade people called the rhetorical triangle, and it uses three things: ethos, pathos, and logos. There, great. Now I've used my degree for the day, so I feel like the money was well spent. But that's a really fancy way to say there are ways to talk people into things, and you can appeal to them in different ways. Well, Those 3 things, which we're going to talk about, we're going to identify them and give them a definition here in just a minute. But those 3 things, ethos, pathos, and logos, are also really good ways to talk to yourself about whether or not your book idea is in fact a viable book idea. So I'm just going to lay it out super quick and then we'll jump into it and we'll talk about books from that angle. Sound good? Sounds good. All right, ma'am, let's do it. Ethos, number 1, top of the triangle. Ethos really is about, do you have ethics? It derives from that, but it really means, am I the right person? Do I have the right qualifications to be the speaker about this topic? So for example, if you see some wackadoodle doctor on TV giving wackadoodle advice, you have to ask yourself, what's their ethos? 'Are they a qualified person to be talking to me about their wackadoodle advice?' So that's one thing that you have to ask yourself. That's ethos. Pathos is appealing to our pathological side, and that's not a negative. It means, are we appealing to emotion? That's pathos. And then logos is, are we appealing to logic? You know, are we making good arguments that are rooted in fact, that have statistics involved, that that's evidence we can back up our claims with. So those are the 3 things. I know that sounds super way out there, and our listeners are thinking, what does this have to do with my book idea?

I love that.

Let's talk marketing first. Talk to me about how you kind of apply some of those things to the marketing side of deciding whether or not you have a book idea. Yes.

So I, I don't even know where this came about, maybe when I was taking journalism. But one of the big questions that you have to answer when writing a piece of content, when you're writing a book, when you're talking about anything, is who the hell cares? And that's the big thing. It's like, who cares? You know, you and I had talked about this triangle, the rhetorical triangle, and earlier this week, and I was thinking like, yeah, no, it totally applies to everything marketing. So ethos, what is your credibility as an author? You know, are you a thought leader? Are you in the beginning stages? Of your process. And this has to do a lot with author, your author platform, you know. Are you already talking about this? Do you have your little audience that you're talking to and you're spreading the love about the things that you are passionate about? Are you advocating for this topic or branding strategy or this way of doing business to somebody, anybody, a group of people? Is it internal within your company? You know, it's just you have to figure out why would anyone want to listen to you? And that's the big thing. There's a lot of people out there having their moment. Everyone has a platform, small or, you know, large, but we need to know as book publishers, as book marketers, and as readers, why should we listen to you? Right? That's simple. And I love the idea of pathos, you know, like can you as a writer and as an author appeal to the emotion of your audience? So the way I like to think about it, and we deal with books in business, so everyone has— everyone who's in business has a pain point. For example, I'm in marketing and my big pain point is Facebook advertising and advertising on Amazon. So that's my big pain point, and You know, on Amazon, it's something that's constantly changing. So instead of me trying to figure it out, I like to go and find somebody who is, you know, a professional in this. So how do I find that person? And I need someone who's able to not just have this knowledge, have the ability and credibility to say, I've done X amount of, you know, advertising campaigns over the course of 10 years, and I've seen it and I've, I've done it all and I've lost money and I've gained money. I need to see that kind of exposure from the person that I'm going to take advice from. So I like to find people who are able to get into the nitty-gritty of it all, but also be able to distill it into a 220-page book, because ultimately that's my attention span. As an author, if you're able to answer that, in my opinion, in terms of marketing your book, you know, having the ability to be that thought leader and be vulnerable with your failures and your wins, be able to get the people who are reading the book, who are listening to you on a weekly basis, getting them to actually trust you.

That's key, right? 100%. And then we have logos.

These are all new things to me, but I love that, you know, they all apply to marketing and editorial. So Logos. Do you have the facts? And this is going back to, can you tell me about the time where you lost $1,000 within 30 minutes on advertising? And can you more importantly tell me why you did the things that you did, what you learned from it, and what I should be looking out for as somebody who needs to learn about these things and what not to do? You know, I need to learn from you. I need to learn from your mistakes. So In essence, you know, as I'm looking for authors and who are going to help market a book, I want to see like, have you done the work? And if so, can you bring the receipts?

It's 100% about those receipts. And I think in so many ways, like you've got to prove to the publishers that you're pitching to that all of these things are working in tandem, right? So you can't just have one piece of it. You can't just have the, well, I'm an expert in my field piece. Okay, that's great. There are lots of experts in your field. What makes you the right voice? What makes you the right person to, to say that thing? And, and I think it just all ties together. So like you said, so beautifully with, with the marketing part. And really, before you even begin to pitch or create a proposal or think about the book itself, I think you have to answer the marketing questions first, almost, don't you think?

Absolutely. And we'll get into this in future episodes, but talking about your platform, you know, becoming an expert and doing and writing get on Medium, talk to your audience on LinkedIn, have a Twitter account, share those valuable pieces of information and start saying the things, the good things and the bad things. Don't be polished.

Absolutely. I'd rather see authors be authentic out there in these social streets than be perfect. So many authors that I follow right now are out there doing that. And I'll say authors kind of, all-encompassing, like people who have already published a book and those who I know have it on their radar, right? You can tell, you can see that hunger. You can see that hunger on social when they're out there doing their marketing, they're doing a million LinkedIn Lives and they're on everybody's podcasts. Hopefully they'll be on ours. But you know, they're doing the things. And I think that's really, that to me is the proof in the pudding, right?

Right, exactly. So tell me a little bit about how somebody can show their credibility as they're writing a book.

Oh, beautiful segue! Yeah, let's talk about the writing part of it. There's a little bit of overlap here, right? Because especially with the ethos part, because you've, you've already mentioned, you know, you have to identify yourself as that expert from a marketing standpoint, but also from the writing standpoint. For me, it's really important that you're able to speak with confidence on the page. And so when I'm looking at a book proposal or I'm looking at sample chapters, I want to hear it. In the voice of that person, that they are in fact the expert, they're the right person. Now that does not mean that you have to be a perfect writer, and I really want people to be comfortable hearing that from us. Lots of books that we do are from people with amazing ideas, but who maybe for them writing is not their first skill, let's put it that way, right?

That's a really nice way of putting it.

Thank you, I'm very diplomatic. I have children, I have to be diplomatic. But I think it's true. So the ethos kind of comes into play from the writing standpoint like that. Like, I want to see you on the page say the right things. I want to see you interview the right people so that I know that what you're bringing to me is the good stuff. It's good and authentic. The other piece of ethos from a writing standpoint— and again, oh, I'm so sorry, I'm going back to teaching freshman comp today. But the things that you bring to me, your logos pieces, like your evidence points in your writing, those need to be well vetted. In other words, when I'm looking at your proposal or your sample chapter, if I see that you are quoting people or that you've got statistics, I want to be sure that you're coming to me with the information that is real and accurate and is not plagiarized.

Oh my God, yeah.

It's, it's an issue. It's a thing. I hate— we should do like a whole segment or a whole show on this, but just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's free for you to use. Please don't just like cut and paste a giant missive from somebody else and then say it's yours. I look for that stuff when I'm looking at your proposal and your sample chapter. That's a two-parter. That's a bit of ethos, but it's also a bit of that logos piece. You're bringing me the right information on the page.

I have a quick question for you.

Yes, ma'am.

Plagiarism. I've read a lot of books and I was tooting my own horn there. I've read a lot of books, but I have seen excerpts from other content. What is the right way for authors to be able to use some of that content? And is there a word limit that they should consider before even including it?

Oh, wow. You know what? That's such a slippery legal slope. Fair use is kind of always a bit question mark. There are some, some basics that you follow, but anything can be taken to court. So my advice is just always be super careful. If you're going to quote directly, please cite it. Please say so-and-so says this. If you're going to include that direct quote, keep it under 50 words. Drop the citation in a comment box for your editor in your document so they can go and check it out and make sure that it's coming from, from the correct source and that you haven't just gone off the rails and cut and pasted a bunch of stuff. But my advice is to always give shoutouts and credibility— or not credibility— and credit to people who you are using as a source. Always. I mean, I'd rather you overdo it than underdo it. And then we have to find out later. Right?

True. Absolutely true.

So talking a little bit more about how we decide if our book idea is the right one from a writing standpoint, I want to talk a little bit about that pathos piece. Now, you'd mentioned from a marketing perspective being really authentic, and I think that applies to when I am reading the writing. Can you have a conversation with the reader? That's the pathos piece I look for on the writing side. And what I mean by that is that the writing is engaging, it's a conversation, right? If I'm sitting down and reading it, I want to feel like you're talking to me. And only me. You know, readers can be a little jealous. We don't want you to talk to everybody. We want you to talk just to us. And so I want to feel that relationship with whoever's book I'm reading. And so you've got to do that in a really, again, authentic— we're using that word a lot today— but in an authentic way. And how you do that is you do make it sound very conversational. So it's okay to refer to the reader as you. It's okay to say, you "you should do these things," or "here's what I recommend to you, dear reader." Think about it like a conversation, just like what you and I are doing right now. It's really important to have that voice. If it's a really stodgy, dry kind of writing, for the consumer books that, you know, that we see out on the retail shelves, that's not a great thing. And that's not to say that every single book has to be cutesy or that you have to use very casual language. That's not what I mean by that. I just mean that it shouldn't be a dissertation. Dissertation. It shouldn't be an academic paper. It should be sitting down with a friend, having that cup of coffee, and saying, "Here's my advice for you, friend." Or if it's a memoir, saying, "Here's my story, friend. What's your story?" So making the reader feel a part of what you're doing on the page is so, so important. That's what I look for on that.

That's a really good point, because, um, and as we're, you know, all in this pandemic and where we are, you know, confined to our rooms in our houses, we're seeing more and more book sales, and I think that those are the ones that are selling the best, the ones that are having conversations. And if it helps authors kind of think about this in a broader perspective, instead of using we, our, one should, having the you, hey, here's what I think that you should be doing, and this is what I recommend if you are somebody who is in this position. Because at the end of the day, when you're done with this book, the idea and the goal is to maybe even get an audiobook out of this. So yeah, the easiest way to get an audiobook out of this, and one that actually sells, is to make sure that your book is conversational. I don't want to listen to 5 hours of one must.

No, I don't either. Super boring. And I think this applies to any kind of book that you're writing. It's not just business book advice, it's, it's any book advice. So just make sure that, that sounds good. And one way that you can do that as you're writing those sample chapters is to read it, read it aloud. Or if you're the kind of person who talks and thinks faster than you can type, you can absolutely write your book using, you know, some kind of voice recognition software. I mean, even Microsoft Word does it now, Google Docs does it now. So you can just say your book. And so that kind of helps you capture the voice too. If you're just talking it out, then you can go back later and edit it and make sure that it looks good. That's a nice little trick. I use that all the time. I just got done writing an article that I was really struggling with, and that's how I did it. I just sat down and talked it out, and I think it captured that tone. So everybody go out and do it. Talk your book.

For sure. Talk your book all the way. So—

Talk your book.

I have some rapid-fire questions for you, Jen. So I was thinking about this, and I was thinking about all the things and all the people that come to us and say, I have this book idea. Is it a book? So I have 3 scenarios for you. All right, we have Christine. She's a retired doctor and an avid golfer and wants to write a guide to the best golf courses in the US. Is that a book?

Oh, Christine, I'm so sorry. No, this is not a book. Here's why. Number 1, just because you love golf doesn't mean that you're an expert in golf. So if I'm looking for a golf book, you're not the one I'm going to buy. All right. Number 2, that's a really finite topic. It's, it's very, very narrow. And while I don't think every book should be broad, aha, no pun intended, I do think that too narrow of a focus means that it's an article. So if you want to write it as an article, if you want to put it on your blog, if you want to put it on in in some golf magazine or pitch it to somebody. That is what Christine should do with that book.

I concur. I will sign off on that. All right. We have Emily. She is a graphic designer who wants to build her business. She has hundreds of hours of how-to on design and theory and quick skills, and she wants to create a book based on the videos.

Is it a book? Ooh, I think it's a book with a caveat. The caveat being, what's Emily's ethos? How much has she already written in public about this? Is she on social media talking about this? Does she have a platform to support it? I love the idea. I think it's definitely at the very least a short book or an ebook that maybe she could float out there and see how it goes before she then tries to pitch a broader book. But yes, it's a book with, with some caveats.

There.

And if it doesn't have enough content, then it's a really great lead generator to get into that platform building.

So, boom, 100%. Yes, ma'am.

So we really hope that this was helpful in thinking about whether or not your idea is a book. If you wanted to go ahead and look at our checklist, feel free to visit broadbookgroup.com/resources where you can go ahead and share your email address with us, and in return we'll give you a checklist on whether or not Your idea is actually a book.

I mean, everybody's got a story, but does everybody have a book? All right. I've got one more very fast one for you. Let's say that I am writing a book. It's about an evergreen topic. In other words, it's about a timeless topic, but I have a brand new spin on it, and that brand new spin has never been written about before. Is it a book? Yes.

And only because I want to know what that brand new spin on is. So think Seth Godin, think Malcolm Gladwell. They're all saying the same thing, but they all have their own spin on things. There could be something there. I would definitely want to see what that looks like, what your logos is. Make sure that you have that before you actually get into the writing process.

Bingo. 100%. I agree. I love evergreen topics that are different and out of the box and kind of funky. That's where the good stuff is.

Thank you so much to everyone who has come on and listened to this. We'll have the recording up soon.

Absolutely. Hey, before we take off for the week, what are you reading this weekend?

Luster by Raven Leilani.

Ooh, this sounds fun. What is this? Give me the, the 5-second synopsis.

So it is fiction and it has to do with race and relationships. It's a little not suitable for work, but I will, I will do a review on this and I'll share it with everyone.

As we both know, everybody's behind on their TBR list because it's hard to read a book in a pandemic. Our brain doesn't work that way. So I'm stepping back into it with a little more self-help. I'm very behind the curve, the curve here. I'm finally reading Untamed by Glennon Doyle.

Oh, good.

It's wonderful. I love it. And I treated myself. I bought a signed copy. And when I got home with the signed copy, I opened it up to see her little, her little signature. Not only was it a little signature, they tipped in a full beautiful page with a drawing of a cheetah, and then it's got her signature in gold ink. It's so fancy, and I feel so fancy every time I read it. So I'm gonna feel good about myself this weekend with Glennon Doyle and her cheetah.

We'll need to hear more about it next week.

Absolutely. All right, thanks again to Paul, our producer. We appreciate him as always. Thanks to our executive producer, Emily Carpenter-Poles Kempf. Vanessa Campos from Little Red Communications. And next time we talk to you all, we'll be talking a little bit more about book proposals. Thanks. See ya.

Thank you.

We hope that you gained some valuable insights into the world of book publishing. Head over to broadbookgroup.com to learn more about us and all our services. And be sure to check out all our social media @BroadBookGroup. Until then, keep publishing!