Ep. 20: On Writing What Matters to You with Minda Harts

Welcome to the Pub Date Podcast, the show where two book broads discuss what should happen before, during, and after your book publication date. Brought to you by Broad Book Group with your host Vanessa Campos and Jen Dorsey.

Happy Friday! Welcome to The Pod. Vanessa, how are you today?

Ma'am, this may be the first Friday in which I can't believe I'm so excited and so blessed to be in this virtual room.

I love that. And why are you feeling so excited and so hashtag blessed to be in this virtual room with me?

Well, because we have a very special guest, and I think it's somebody who both you and I have been kind of fangirling over for the last few years since her first release.

Yes.

Um, you want to do the introduction? Because I think that I'm probably going to pass out.

I will do the introduction. Uh, we are so happy to have on the pod today Minda Harts, author of The Memo, author of Right Within, and soon to be— well, author, but soon to be released— You Are More Than Magic, a fantastic YA book. Minda, welcome to the pod. We're thrilled to have you here.

Happy to be here with both of you. Thank you for having me.

Oh my gosh, it is just our pleasure. Um, as, as Vanessa Campos said, we have been following your work for a long time, uh, because we're, we're business book ladies at heart. And, uh, your book just has, um, The Memo especially just made an absolute splash on the scene, talking about what Black women, uh, can do to, to get themselves a seat at that table. Um, I would love to talk a little bit to you today about why not why, because I think I know the why, but, but writing about what matters to you and what's important to you and how, just how you got started writing about this topic, which is still very needed in the marketplace.

Yeah, that's a great question. Uh, I think about Toni Morrison. She pretty much said write the book you want to read, right? And that's exactly what I decided to do. I had been reading countless business books written by, you know, really amazing white men and women, but I never saw myself in, in the narrative, right? I was able to use advice that was given, obviously, to be helpful, but I knew that they weren't really talking about my experience, and I wanted others to be able to read about their experiences and say, "Yeah, me too," right? Or experience that, or, "Yes, this might happen to some people in the workplace, but as a woman of color, it's a whole different unique experience." So I wanted to provide a narrative and context and humanity to the experiences of women of color, because I knew as a Black woman, I wasn't getting that out of business content. And so, you know, there's a lot that goes with that. But I thought, well, if I'm feeling this way, maybe others are feeling this way and maybe there is an audience for this type of content.

Absolutely. And I think you touch on a really important point, which is that so much business book content is written from a very limited perspective. Right. It's, it's very white male-centric. It's very white woman-centric. You know, Lean In is one that comes to mind of that white woman-centric ideal. And I just, I love that, that you're bringing this new, um, refreshing voice to this arena that so desperately needs it. Um, can you tell me a little bit about how you came up with the idea for the memo, um, beyond just recognizing that, you know, that you didn't see yourself? I mean, You talk a lot about workplace trauma. Did that kind of play into the role there, or was that more of something that you hit on later?

No, actually, I don't think I ever would have written the memo or Write Within or You Are More Than Magic if I didn't experience pain in the workplace. If I didn't experience that two things can be true at the same time. You can be working at the same place and experience that workplace different than some of your counterparts, those in the dominant majority. And so I was going through a really traumatic period in my former life. And I just thought, wow, if I had been a different color, if I had been a different gender, I probably would not be experiencing these inequalities if I'm being honest with myself, right? And there's nothing that I can do to change this toxic workplace. And I just thought about how I had worked so hard, first-generation college student, first person in my family to enter into corporate America, to get to this space. Only to have my dreams deferred due to toxic and bad characters, right? And I realized that I don't want current or future generations of women of color or people of color or anyone who feels like they're on the margins to feel like they have to defer their career dreams. So I wanted to be able to write about it because I felt so much pain, right? I cried tears that probably many of my ancestors and relatives had cried about their experiences, right? And I wanted to finally say enough is enough., and we should have choice to be able to stay or go, not feel like we can't stay here anymore. And so I really started out of— a lot of people may not know this, but I started writing a newsletter in 2015 called the Memo Mondays. And all of those— and my book didn't come out till 2019. So I was writing every Monday about these experiences. And eventually, they were what helped create this book that I had no idea that I would write when I was in the pit of my trauma.

And I think one really important piece that I take away from reading your stuff is, you know, not only is it very narrative-driven because you're speaking from that place of experience, but it's also hopeful. You know, at least that's the way I am interpreting it. And it's hopeful in that you give some really great how-to resources without it feeling prescriptive, right? Like, it feels to me at least like it's very— you're tying that personal piece to the, okay, now you, reader, go take it and do it piece. How do you do that? How do you find that balance between those two voices? I mean, they're not competing. They kind of work together, right?

Yeah, that's a good takeaway, Dr. Jenn. For me, it was really important when I was writing to bring my authentic self to the narrative. And I wanted to really disrupt business books in two ways. One, being a bestselling— Black woman author, right, in a space that doesn't typically have that. But then also, I wanted to write it very conversational. This isn't like 10 steps to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. This is, listen, come sit in my living room. Come sit on the couch. Let's have a real, real, real conversation about what we've experienced. And let's talk about the hope that is the future. Because now that we've identified and we're talking about the issue that many try to tell us doesn't exist, now we can actually get to solutions, right? And I am living proof that you don't have to— how can I put this? You don't have to— your story doesn't have to end in trauma, right? There is something on the other side of that. But sometimes we have to know what it looks like. And so for me, it really is saying, hey, maybe this space is not for you, but there is a table for you, right? This isn't the end-all be-all of your career. And I feel like women of color specifically need to be reminded that, You are an asset. You are valued. The work that you've done this far, we don't have to push that to the side, that you do deserve humanity, dignity, and equity. And I think, again, just because we don't get those affirming voices all the time, that it's just a way for me to say, hey, if you don't ever get it, you're getting it right here in the books that I'm putting out.

Absolutely. You bring up authenticity, and I know that's something that Vanessa Campos and I have talked about a lot, not only in terms of how you write, but how you market your book and, and how you then go out and, and speak to people and, um, you know, do all the book marketing things that, that authors have to do. So I'm going to kick it over to Vanessa so that you guys can talk a little bit about where that authenticity comes into play after you write the book.

Awesome.

Yes.

So, you know, Minda, you and I were talking about, you know, how your book affected me specifically as, as a woman of color in the workplace. Being in book publishing, it a very, uh, white space. There aren't a lot of people making decisions and gatekeeping, um, for everybody else. And, and we found ourselves, Jen and I, kind of figuring out, okay, how do we bring in more voices? And I love the way that you brought in all of these other voices and all of these people. It's like, yes, this does happen. And, you know, um, bringing in a lot of authenticity, not just from your own perspective, but from the perspective of other people. Um, so that's just me fangirling, saying thank you so much for writing this book. So here's my big marketing question. This is your second book. What was the most important marketing strategy in, in releasing this book and getting the steam that we all knew it was going to have, but like in keeping the conversation going from The Memo into this one?

That's a great question, Vanessa, because I, I'll be honest, I was like kind of fearful about being able to keep that momentum in the conversation going. Like, I do want the workplace to be healed, but I also want people to, to buy this next book, right? You know, so, right, weird juxtaposition. But the one thing that I always kept the center was again my voice, right? And realizing that if we keep it conversational, if we keep the access, right? The thing that people like about me and my books is that I keep it real, right? And I'm accessible, and I feel like I'm the girl next door, right? And I want to continue to feel like we are still— we're growing together, right? And so for me, we had the memo, which is great. We still have that. But now it's time to level up in a different way for ourselves, right? The growth has to continue. And so for me, I want us to be able to grow together. And that's how I think about the marketing perspective is now we've talked about you're not crazy. You've been experiencing it. It's real.

It's real. It happened to me. It's real.

It's real. No matter what Tom said to you, it's real. Now let's work on all of those years of internalizing all that pain and aggression that you didn't ask for. And now let's go to this place, to a healing place. And so I felt like it was just like the big sister, right? When you think about the next step and I think it was a natural transition into marketing, if you will, because people were still like, they loved the memo and they were wanting something else for that next journey. And I feel like Write Within was that next step.

And I completely agree. And I think that that leads us into what your next book is going to be about. And it's just kind of taking that conversation and bringing it to the people who aren't necessarily at that place experiencing those things in the workplace. Does it mean that you're not experiencing the same situations, you know, just in your environment, because that does happen. It doesn't discriminate against age. So tell us a little bit about what that kind of lightbulb moment was for your next book.

Yeah, I mean, I'm very proud of both books that are out currently, but I think You Are More Than Magic, it hits very different for me because I remember I often see the 13-year-old Minda in a lot of things that I'm doing, right? She shows up. Those feelings, I want, you know, show up in different ways. And I have to remind her that we're, you know, there's better down this road. And so I know how I was at 13, 14, being sometimes still the only Black girl in the classroom or in at the sporting event or whatever have you. And I realized that, oh, wait a second, these feelings weren't just when I entered in corporate or nonprofit spaces. I was being shaped in junior high school and high school in my formative years. And so If I would have had tools back then to address what I'm dealing with now, I would have been a force to be reckoned with.

Right.

I would have known my value so much sooner. And I want young girls of color to know their value at a young age so that when they need to have a difficult conversation with a friend, with a teacher, with a parent, that we have the tools to be able to do so, that you get to set the tone and boundaries early on. It's really hard if you never set boundaries early on and then, oh, at 30 you now have to set some boundaries. It's a little more difficult. It's not impossible, but it's difficult, right? And so I just want us to be equipped so when we get into these different spaces that we already understand the value and what we bring to the table and that we deserve that.

Absolutely. And I think that even if you are not Like, for instance, myself, I grew up in a predominantly Latino community and I wasn't like the rest of my friends. I had different interests and that ostracized me a little bit. I leaned more toward a different type of culture and what I liked and what I didn't like. Some of them were, you know, I was first generation, so I was experiencing my environment in a completely different way than, than they were. So I think that even for someone from my perspective who I don't look different, but I felt different. This book was so helpful to me, just kind of— I mean, I'm in my mid-30s, I'm still growing up, and I— this was one of those really great tools that, you know, I think it's going to live with me for a very long time. And I have it right here and it's marked up. So I was gonna say I'm gonna give it away to somebody, but this one's marked up, so I'm gonna give another one to somebody else and pay it forward because I think that it's really important. But yeah, I, I would love to hear, Minda, a little bit more about What kind of— because as a person of color, saying these things out loud and saying these things on such a high-level and profile situation, you've published a book that's going to get into the hands of people in the US everywhere. It's a little terrifying. How do you deal with that?

I'm still taking it in each and every day, if I can be honest with you, right? Because Let's, you know, again, 4 years ago, my— 3 years ago, my life was very different. You know, I'm now going to have written 3 books in 3 years. I mean, 3 years ago, I was pretty much just coming out of a traumatic experience, not too long before that. And so, you know, to know that my voice is tied to somebody else's freedom, somebody else's healing, that's a lot of responsibility, right? But I am— honored and privileged and humbled that I got to be this voice to just remind us that there is more, that we deserve more, right? Because I know what Toni Morrison did for me. I know what, you know, Alice Walker did for me. You know, I know all of these different women that came before that were writing. Me reading their content showed me that I could be more, that I was more, that, you know, I just had to step into my own power and to to maybe one day be up there with those women to say, "Minda did this for this workspace," it's very humbling. But more so, people get to be a direct beneficiary of my courage, which means that somebody else gets to be a beneficiary of your courage, Vanessa, right? And so we have this trickle effect. And so once I realized that it's bigger than me, it's bigger than being, you know, my fears, that it just creates a better workplace, a better country, community than we found it. And so that's what keeps me going. So those days where I get like kind of afraid or people are like, well, what do you think about this, Minda? I'm like, let me be clear. I don't have all the answers. I just have my perspective. And I'm sharing that so that we can just have a larger conversation because the reality was we weren't talking about some of these things a few years ago and now we can talk about them and you can't confront what you're not— you can't change what you're not willing to confront. Right. And so now we're doing that work.

I love that. And I think tour de force is the word I think of when I think of all that you have accomplished in this very short period of time as an author. And I would like to know, as an editor, since we've been having some editor conversations together already about how that works, how as a writer do you care for yourself? Not only are you writing about something that's so deeply personal and so deeply impactful to you, but also, as you mentioned, to so many other people. I would assume there's— you feel the pressure of that sometimes. So how do you care for your heart? How do you care for yourself as a writer when you're in the spotlight in the way that you are right now?

Yeah, that's a great question. I had— I'll be honest, I had so much anxiety with the release of Write Within because the memo was so popular, you know, and I'm just like, oh, I don't want to be a one-hit wonder, you know, like, you know, like I kept— I had all this angst. I'm like, you know, I know that people need to hear from me, but I wanted to be very thoughtful. And I put a lot, I think, of pressure on myself to deliver in that way because I wanted to write an impactful book, not necessarily— if it's impactful, then in my opinion, it's successful, right? But I couldn't focus on accolades, but I really wanted to be a game changer when we think about self-help and career books. And so I just had to, as I talk about in the memo, this empire state of mind versus enemy state of mind, right? Like, I couldn't be my worst enemy when writing. I just had to do what I had control over. That's tell my story, right? And that is what I always come back to. Just tell your story, Linda, and that'll help others tell theirs too. And so that's the self-care. I only can control what Linda can control. I can't control— anything else. And so if I do the work that I need to do, then the rest will fall the way that it needs to. And so just reminding myself of, of my worth, right, in my story and how that's important. And I would encourage, you know, all authors to do the same. We can't control who buys it, who promotes it, any of those things, but we have the pen, right, or we have the computer, and we have that control, and that's the control that I focus on.

Absolutely. And I think that's a really great message for you to have while you're getting ready to step into this new arena of writing more of a YA style book for a whole different generation. I mean, to me, that's good advice to give to them as well, right?

Definitely. Because even with that, I'm like, ooh, am I too old to be writing to teenagers, you know? You know, am I cool enough? And, you know, so again, what I can control is what I can control.

You know what, I think you're gonna be the cool—

I can't control that I'm aging, but I still think I'm cool. I'm a cool older millennial, as, uh, earlier you can be the cool aunt.

You're the cool aunt.

Yes. You know what, I don't want to be called the aunt just yet. How about the big sister? I'm gonna take—

oh, there you go.

Fair enough, fair enough.

You know, as you guys are talking, I'm thinking about the editorial process and the fact that you've had the same publisher for all 3 books. And how, you know, that relationship just kind of builds on itself. What was your— what was your experience in pitching this book to, you know, two different publishers, and how did you land with Seal Press?

Yeah, that's a great question. Well, the memo and Write Within are with Seal Press, and then my young adult book is with Penguin, or—

oh, that's right.

Um, but, you know, I really love that seal, they hashet, they believe in my voice, right? And I think as a publisher, as an imprint, as the editors I've gotten to work with, those who understand your voice and they want to cultivate your voice, right? You know, like they already got it. Like I didn't— when I use rap lyrics or when I use certain lingo, like I don't get questioned about that. They're like, that is who you are, right? And then when I start working at a different publishing house, that particular editor that I was working with at the time did not know my voice in that same way, right? So we had to reestablish, you know, this— I am a conversational writer. That's who I am, right? It's not going to be 10 steps and turn left. It's going to be, hey girl, this is— you missed that spot, right? You know, so understanding where— who I am in that way. But I also appreciate the the support that I had at Seal because I was able to convey that to my new partnership at the other publisher as well, and then we got to build that relationship, and now they under— they know my voice, right? And so I don't think that had I not had that support, that success partnership at Seal Press, that I would have been a little insecure about pitching my way and writing in the style that I do, but now that I know that it works, that I feel comfortable to be able to do that. And I think when you have sponsors, right, you have allies who really champion your work, then it makes it easier for you to do your job, which is really great. And I've been really just so blessed to work with phenomenal— I've had different editors on all 3 books. And, you know, I've just been really fortunate to have people who get me and we have good working relationships.

That's so important. And I think as we discussed last night when I was with you and your writing group, having that trust is really, really valuable, and I would think that even more so when you're dealing with a topic that's so very close to your heart, right?

And it's sensitive, right? It's a sensitive topic, and sometimes you're not always working with people who look like you or have same experiences as you. And so, you know, you do have to have very thoughtful conversations that, like, well, did you want to say it that way? I absolutely did want to say it that way.

And that's how a good editor would frame it for you, right? Not to say, I don't say it like this, but—

And sometimes I will be asked that question, to be fair, and I'll be like, you know what, maybe I don't, maybe I can flesh that out a little bit. Maybe we can get to a better way to tell it. So thankful for good editors.

Absolutely. So what is, what's next for you? I mean, obviously the, you know, the third book is what's next, but you're right in the middle still of promoting Right Within. What's on the horizon for Minda?

Yeah, it's just—

What's not?

Right?

Everything is possible. Everything is possible. And that's what I've really come to know. When I got my first book deal, I never guessed that I'd write 3 books in a 3-year time period. I never would have guessed that. And so I'm dreaming bigger, Jen and Vanessa. I'm dreaming bigger. And as long as I'm— you know, I always say that I'm catalyzing equity for women of color in the workplace. And as long as I'm able to do that, then the work keeps going. The minute that I'm not able to do that, then maybe I need to be doing something else. But I always say yes to the things that align with that mission and that goal and that impact. And so the workplace still has some work to be done. So that means that I still have some stories and some support to give in some way, shape, or form.

I'm making my husband read the books. So there's that. There's value to be had there for leaders to read the book and see what they can be doing better too.

You know what? I'm glad that you brought that up because my books aren't just for women of color. They're actually for anybody who wants to make space better than they found it, right? Because I read a lot of different books, you know, that I— of people that I don't have same shared lived experience with, but it makes me a better advocate, a better leader, a better manager to understand the experiences of other people. And we're not going to change the way the workplace works if we don't understand how people that we work with experience it.

100%, yeah. So I want to know just a little bit before we, before we wrap up here, since we're talking about sharing knowledge and encouraging everyone to read more, what are you reading right now? What's exciting for you on your bookshelf? Or are you just, are you too busy out there getting, getting the word out about your fabulous books? It's hard to find the time.

You know, here's where I'm at. I have like 1,000 books that I've bought in the last like like since the holidays, and, but I'm actually finishing up a book of Eve Rodsky, Claiming Your Unicorn Space. She wrote a book called Fair Play. And so, you know, I think creating your own lane, creating your space is really important. So I love the way, you know, Eve, she's very forward and conversational too, and I like that type of writing. And so Claiming Your Unicorn Space, that's a book that I'm currently reading in between all the other things. But I love to read, so I always make time for it no matter what.

Well, we are so thrilled to have had you here today. I know we're reading your book. I cannot wait to see the young people's version of all the good knowledge that you've dropped in the first two books. We're just really thrilled for you, and we're thrilled to have you here, and I hope you'll come back and see us again soon.

Yes, please do.

Thank you.

Well, that is it for us, uh, for today from the Book Broads. We want to thank our executive producer, Emily Carpenter-Pulskamp of Little Red Communications, and our producer, Paul Roberts, OC Talk Radio. And we will see you next time, everybody. Thanks.

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