Ep. 21: What You Need to Know Before Writing a Memoir with Dr. Kelly J. Baker

Welcome to the Pub Date Podcast, the show where two book broads discuss what should happen before, during, and after your book publication date. Brought to you by Broad Book Group with your host Vanessa Campos and Jen Dorsey.

Welcome back, everyone.

How is everyone doing this Friday?

Jen, how are you?

I am well. I am ready for the weekend. It's been kind of a hairy week. It's been a hairy week in book world, which is not all bad. I mean, you know, there's news. It's all good. What about you?

Same. I am excited to wrap up today, but not before we get into the conversation of memoir writing.

I know, I'm excited for this. This is a momentous occasion because we are having our first-time Boomerang guest, our second appearance from Dr. Kelly Baker. She was so kind to join us the first time and, and talk a little bit about moving from academia into more of, more of a public-facing academic role and publishing and how all of that fits into that. And today she's going to talk to us about memoir because she's the author of two beautiful memoirs that I have certainly enjoyed reading, and I know that you have too, Final Girl and Grace Period, in addition to all of her other books. So Dr. Kelly Baker, welcome back to the pod. We are thrilled to have you back once again.

Thank you so much for having me back. I'm super stoked to be your first Boomerang guest, so I'm, I'm very hyped about that. That's awesome.

The gift will be in the mail. There'll be a plaque and something commemorative for you, I promise.

I need a tiara and a sash.

Yes, absolutely. Oh, that'd be fab. I love that idea. We're gonna do it because it would match your cute sparkly glasses. That you're wearing today and your beautiful, beautiful new— is it pink or magenta?

It's like magenta. I don't, I don't know. I just mix stuff together and luckily it turned out okay.

I love it. You look great. Well, welcome back. Um, I want to dig right in and talk to you a little bit about your memoir journey, um, because I don't know that that's a journey that you intended to go on necessarily when you started writing publicly and, you know, making that academic transition as we've discussed. So could you tell us a little bit about how you ended up writing some memoir?

Right. So, um, you're exactly right. It was accidental. So I don't think I ever was a typewriter, um, especially moving out of academia, that thought like, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna write a memoir, right? Like, I don't know that I thought I was that interesting, right? Like, that there was anything super exciting here that anybody would want to hear. Um, and so for me, memoir writing often starts out as essays, so that I write an essay on one particular facet of my life, and then write another and write another. And then the next thing I know, I have tens of thousands of words on one particular topic. And I realize that I'm actually narrating a story about myself and actually also figuring out a story about myself, right? Like doing that kind of analysis about what's happening in my life and thinking through this in some kind of way. Um, so it's never entirely intentional, right? Like I'm never one of those authors, except for my more like research journalistic writing, you know, I'm never like this is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna set out to write a memoir on my transition out of academia, or I'm gonna set out to write this really tough memoir about mental illness and grief and trauma, right? Like that's never sort of where it starts. It's instead that there are different essays where I have different kind of entry points into a story and then realize like, oh, here's the theme that I'm working on, right? And here is what I'm trying to say. And then I'm using that particular experience to get to something more universal, right? So that I can say like, this is what happened to me, but when we talk about mental illness, right, or depression, that this is something that a lot of people suffer from, right? So my story has particulars to it, but it can resonate with a reader, right? And so it's not just me talking about me, but it's me thinking about kind of larger global things too as I'm putting together the story of what my life looks like at different periods of time.

Right. That makes a lot of sense. And I think there's a— I think a lot of people have a big misconception about what memoir is. I think a lot of people think it's, I'm just going to tell my whole life story and that's memoir. But we know that's not right, right? I think you bring up a really good point about having that central theme. How— like, what does that look like to you? I know what you've done with it, but, you know, when someone's sitting down saying, I think I have thoughts about a thing that resonate with my life, like, How do you, how do you determine what that is? What does that look like as opposed to the old grandpa sitting on the front porch rocking chair kind of memoir?

Right, right. I, um, really don't enjoy the memoirs that are like, I was born in this momentous occasion, right? And then like, this is what I did in child— like, nobody wants to hear about like my skinned knees or like the fact that kindergarten was tough or, you know, like that I was dreamy in third grade or like, like, like that could be interesting, like, in a certain story way, but that's not necessarily the memoirs I'm drawn to. Right. I'm much more drawn to the ones where people are talking about the kind of messiness of their lives. So it's the memoirs, for me, where people are actually working out their story in real time, right? And that's how those themes pieces come to be, right? Because for me, I'm the type of writer that writing helps me figure out things. And I think that's very much the academic piece that comes into my creative nonfiction. But it's— that's where, like, the analysis lies for me. And so kind of picking that story, right? Like picking one of those stories that you feel like is essential to your identity and writing that and then trying a different one about that, right? Like, so you've written this one version about this one event and then you can write this other version about this. And I think once you come into those stories in different ways, then you can kind of find those larger ideas. So for me, it's one of those things where I was writing about mental illness for a while. Before I kind of recognized that that was the theme that I was looping around, right? That I had written all these, like, different essays about this. And then I was like, oh no, like, I'm really grappling with what it means for my life that I have an anxiety disorder, right? That I have bipolar too, right? Like, what does that mean in some kind of way? And like, how do I figure this out? And it was me again trying to, like, come into this in these different type fashions that then could become kind of a larger work. Um, and the same thing happened with Grace Period where I was like, I've just radically changed my life by shifting from this career that I thought was what I was going to do to like, I don't know what's happening. And, um, and I don't know what's happening like really freaked me out, right? And, and so I tell people all the time, it took me like 60,000 words to be okay with that, you know? But again, it's just like this, like this is the thing that everybody goes through, right? Dramatic transitions and changes. So I'm not writing like a story that no one's ever heard before. It's just me saying there are particulars here that get us to that kind of thing, right? Like, like if you're trying to figure this out, like, here's how I tried to figure it out. And like, that could be helpful to you. And so I kind of like those messier memoirs, right, of people that don't entirely have it figured out, but there's something that they're moving towards, right? There's something essential about their identity that they're really thinking through that connects to all kinds other people who have very particular stories in very particular places, but like, we're struggling with what it means to be like a human in the world, right? And that, I think, is much more interesting.

I think speaking as a publisher, it's— I always find myself in the position of feeling badly when people come to me, like personally and say, I have a book and I'm thinking, oh boy, oh, here we go. And they're almost always the grandpa rocking chair on the porch style of books. I never want to tell people that I— that their life isn't quote unquote interesting enough for a memoir because we all have stories and, you know, and everyone's story is unique. But I think positioning it in the way that you're talking about is a really interesting way to look at it. And I think that's going to help me have better conversations with people who come to me next time with, with that saying, with that thought in their mind.

Well, and I think there is stuff that they can pull from those kinds of those kinds of narrations, right? Like, um, and it really strikes me as that like autobiography style that's not really memoir but people kind of think it is, you know, where we have to like signpost all the events here. And I mean, I don't think we have to, right? Like, we have to pull out some of the significant ones, um, but I think some of the best like non-fiction pieces I've written about my life are ones where it's not even like a major event, like it's small, right? Like, it's that mundane thing that actually might seem really insignificant but has like a larger meaning in the grand scope of like what I deal with from day to day, or like what I've dealt with for years, or, um, something like this. And that's super fascinating, right? Because most of us aren't going to climb Everest, right? Like, most of us are not going to be like billionaire tech CEOs, right? Um, you know, like, most of us are just stuck in it, right, in some kind of way. And a lot of the stuff that we deal with is boring, and it's not exciting all the time, but like those moments can be really revelatory, I think, and can be really useful in a way to connect to readers, you know, to really say like, no, we're in it like in the same kind of ways. And like we're just trying to like figure out how we move from day to day. Like how do we deal with this kind of stuff? And I think we learn more from that kind of memoir. I hope so. Like, I mean, maybe there are people that are listening that are like, I read some McKelley stuff. I'm not sure. But no, I like, I hope that there's like a sense of helpfulness in that too, right? Like, like we're in it together and sometimes it really sucks. And like, let's think about why it sucks, right? And like what we have to deal with in some kind of way.

Sure.

Well, and do you wonder too if people get kind of hung up on thinking that the things that they are writing, whether they're, you know, short-form essays or whether they're looking to kind of compile these into a memoir, that there has to be a neatly wrapped package with the bow at the end, there has to be a resolution. I mean, life is not a 30-minute sitcom, right? And so, you know, how do you get past, or how do writers get past feeling like there has to be the happy ending there?

Yeah, so I hate happy ending stories. Like, I feel like that's a bad thing to say. Like, I do like it in my sitcoms, right, or my movie, you know, or my romance novel that I'm reading. But I think there's like a tentativeness about our lives, right? So both of the memoirs I have kind of end, in an open-ended way, right? Where it's like, like, I'm trying the best I can, but I don't have a good resolution to the story, right? Because I'm still moving through. And so I always think about like this idea that an ending is always a beginning, right? So that we can end something kind of temporarily, but it's the start of something else, right? So it's really hard to say like, in this memoir, I'm going to resolve this, right? Like, so if someone picks up Grace Period and they're like, oh, she's writing about transition, She's writing about broken dreams. She's writing about how to figure this out. She's going to tell me what to do, and then there's a happy ending here. And you get to the end, and my last essay is like, I'm trying, and I'm still not good at it. Right? I mean, and that's very much where I was. Right? I'm like, this is my last essay where I'm like, I'm trying to move forward, but so much of this is just one foot in front of the other without kind of knowing what comes next. Right? And I think the same thing happens in Final Girl, right? Where it's like, it's not like I've gotten to the point where I've like fixed mental illness because it's not fixable, right? Like, this is not the thing that like— I know, I know. Listen, I— my therapist, I was like, I don't understand why you can't fix things. And she's like, what? Like, this is what you thought we were doing? And I was like, wait, time. Like, we need to have a— why am I paying you? Why am I paying you? You're not gonna fix it. Um, but I think those are the kinds of resolutions people want, right? Like, you get to the end and like Kelly has had the journey and like she's figured it out. And like you get to the end and you're like, she's still struggling with this because I'm always going to struggle with it, right? Like there's never going to be a moment where I don't struggle with it and struggle with it in different ways. Um, and so I think those tidy resolutions are always sort of frustrating for me because I think it's kind of a false sense of like we get to a point where we figure everything out and like we We just don't, right? Or we get to a point where we think we figured it out. And then, like, the next thing you know, like, something else swoops in and you have to kind of reorient again. And so I like those kinds of memoirs, right, that are like, I thought I had it, and now I can't put my hands on it anymore. So like, what do I do next, right? And where do I go? And, and I think that's really useful for a reader to see that too, kind of in real time about like I think sometimes we assume other people have it, like, figured out, and I think it's really useful to realize that people don't, right? Like, some of us, like, attempt, but, like, I mean, no, just no.

So I, I actually have a question for both of you, one, you know, from the writer perspective, Dr. Kelly, and one from the acquiring editor perspective, Dr. Jen Dorsey. Um, let's say that you're in the middle of writing your memoir and you're— you think you have something, you think it's good. Do you you usually go in this and say, like, who is this book for? Is it for me? Is it for my family? Is it for others? And what are you looking for in terms of, you know, from an acquisitions perspective, what a good memoir looks like? And on the writer's perspective, how do you ask yourself, is this good enough? Is this going to help somebody else? Is anybody else interested in this? Because that's something, you know, I struggle with. It's even on something that I, I know, prescriptive on book marketing. I was like, is this really going to help anyone? I'm curious, so from the editorial direction, how do you know it's a good book that you want to publish memoir-wise? And then from a writer's perspective, how do you know it's a good book that people want to read?

Oh wow, I think the answers kind of have to go hand in hand. But, you know, I'd say from an acquiring standpoint, I would be looking for a couple of things. I'd be looking for a fresh take on a topic. You know, a new perspective. Like Kelly said, taking some of those more mundane things of life and seeing if you can really bring them to life for the reader and kind of use those as a jumping-off point to position some really great storytelling. So to me, it's always about the storytelling, um, you know, whether it's a nonfiction book or a business book, or— I mean, that element always has to be at play, and I think more so in this genre than any other. So that's really what I'm looking for, is just that that fresh take on maybe classic ideas, but with a little bit of a secret sauce, a little bit of a spin to it. And just really something that speaks to the times that we're living in and what we're going through. And it doesn't necessarily mean that every memoir has to be about this singular moment in time. Like, it can't be all pandemic stories, right? But taking something that we're all collectively experiencing and showing that in a new way.

So I always start projects as projects for me, right? Like, so they always start out as projects about like, what is the book I needed to read, right? Like, at some point, what was something I needed to hear or that I kind of needed in some kind of way, right, that wasn't out there? And so often that's very much the beginning of what I'm doing, because if I think of audience too early on, like, it just shuts my writing down. Like, it's just— I think it's too much pressure in some sort of way to be like, oh, how is it going to be received? And it's like, no, this is way too early to even kind of think about that. And what I will say is that there are like moments in the journey where things click, right? Where all of a sudden you're like, oh, like I'm on to something, right? Like when you figure out those major like arcs, or you figure out kind of what the story like really is. Like there are those awesome moments where you're just like, wow, like I'm way smarter than I thought I was, right? So those of course are also paired with the moments where I text like my best writing buddy and say, "I'm printing my manuscript out. I'm walking to the fire pit. I'm gonna set it on fire because it's awful. I just want you to know. And maybe I'm gonna throw my laptop in too," right? And then he, like, texts back and is like, "We're not setting anything on fire. We're gonna leave our laptop alone." So I think it's interesting from a writer's perspective that memoir is really hard because because you're talking about you, right? And I always get to a point sometimes where I'm like, "God, I'm so tired of thinking about myself. Like, this is just— like, I'm an exhausting human being. Like, why am I doing this?" But I think there are also those things where you can kind of see when the story finally comes together, right? But for me, that kind of doubt also helps me reorient, right? Like, it's usually the precursor to me, like, figuring out something big about narrative or how I want it to fit together or something like this. But yeah, I think it's a hard— like, I don't think there's like a particular moment that I'm all of a sudden like, "This is really good." I think there are moments throughout where I'm like, "Oh, I'm doing something different," right, than things I've read before or found a novel way into this that I wouldn't have been able to do before. But yeah, no, I think memoir is harder in that way than sort of analytic journalism, right, or academic monograph because it's so centered in, your own experiences and like really digging deep into those. And sometimes that's just like not fun, right? Like it's just, you know, I'm like, I'm just gonna lie here on the floor, everyone walk around me, right?

Like, I think you're describing my Tuesdays. Well, and I think that's actually really— that's a really good way of putting it because as we were coming to the conversation of memoir writing and I was just like, why would anyone want to write their memoir? Who am I?

Why me?

You know, those are the type of conversations I feel like authors should be having with themselves as they're writing a particular event, something that is— it's almost like, and maybe I'm just, you know, bringing this down to something very simplified, but it's almost like I'm sharing this specific moment in my day. It's a journey for me. And I think that may be something to consider. And this is just marketing-wise, as you're writing these things, kind of put aside a note, a sticky note that says, I've seen other people have this experience. Why aren't we talking about this as a whole, as a community? And I think that that's a lot of what's happening right now. You know, last episode we had Minda Harts on and she was talking about her experience in the workplace trauma. And it's like, I've not heard that before in the way that she explained that, even though she's had a different path than me. But I've experienced similar situations and, and it made me feel seen. So even though she was talking about something something that was specific to her, you see yourself in that. So as you're writing from a marketing perspective, it's those little bits and pieces that you need to kind of like, yes, it's a small thought, but those are the things that you'll want to then make sure that you polish and turn around and share with a Jen Dorsey who is acquiring a book like this. So I love, I love this. I'm not saying I'm ever going to write a memoir. No one ever read my journals, please. They will be burned.

Oh no, they're going in the fire pit.

Look out. They're going to the fire pit.

Kelly, when you— I mean, as you mentioned with Grace Period in particular, that kind of came about in a bit of a different way because these were, these were things that you were already writing for, for another publication. If someone really thinks, okay, I would like to sit down and start trying to write down some essays and maybe not even be thinking them, thinking of them in a book format yet, but just wanting to put some stories down, no matter, as you mentioned, doing it for themselves. What are some— what are some things you've learned along the way that, that can help you? I don't think there's any tried and true, here's how to write a memoir kind of tips, but what advice would you have for people who are just stepping into this space?

Super hard to kind of figure out what's going to work for other people. For me, a lot of this just kind of starts as an idea that I write down in a journal, on a sticky note, this sort of thing, right? Like, there's something that comes to me that I think, like, oh, this could be really interesting, right? And they're totally random, right? Like, and this is very much a writer's brain thing, right? You know, um, so I have, like, a note about, like, write about pirate as the Squid Game, right? I don't know if I'm ever gonna do that, but it's, like, a thing that I thought of, right? Um, and, you know, like, I, like, wrote down the other day where I was thinking about Greece because I have a kid that's, like, obsessed has with musicals, right? And I was like, oh, I was the Sandy who wanted to be a Rizzo. And I'm like, this could be a really cool essay. So a lot of it for me is just those kinds of keeping track of those initial ideas, no matter how weird they are. Maybe I won't come back to them at all, but just kind of jotting that down and having the record of that, right, is super helpful when I come back to think about things. I also do this when I'm reading other people, right, to see like what they're talking about in their stories and to kind of react and respond and, and do this kind of thing. I do keep a journal sort of haphazardly. I'm not the best at that kind of practice. I tend to have jottings sort of everywhere. Um, but I think one of the things that really helped me is I have a website that has a blog. And so for me as a writer, that's kind of a place where I can experiment that's very low stakes. So it's not me sending something to the Rumpus, right? Or it's not me sending something to the Atlantic or some other sort of literary place. It's me taking like my first go at a story, right? And so I think one of the things I would encourage people to do is to have no problem with drafts, right? Like just rough drafts are like your friend, right? Like just like get it out and see what happens, you know? And I had to learn this, by the way, because I kind of wanted things to be perfect. But more and more for me, me in telling a story, it's the revising that's the most important. So if I can just get something down, the revising is where it becomes like what it's supposed to be. But it's so much just kind of giving yourself the space to like attempt it and see what happens, which I think makes people nervous, but I think it's like a great way to start.

I think so too. And just having that sort of brain dump notebook where it's just like there's no pressure, these are my ideas, these are my things that I'm noticing. It's my Seinfeld notebook. I'm writing my— jotting down my notes about nothing maybe someday could turn into something. I really like that idea a lot. That's really cool. And your, your concept of using the blog as sort of a low-pressure entry point really resonates too, because I think a lot of people get in their heads, okay, I've got to write it and it's got to be great right out the gate. But, you know, as we learn in like Anne Lamott, who writes in Bird by Bird about the— I don't think I can say the word on here, but the poopy first drafts, your poopy first draft. You should embrace it, right? I mean, just get it out there. And then the magic, as you mentioned, is in the revision. I think that's important too, even when we're telling our own stories, right?

I think that's totally the case. And, and I think one of the things that I've learned from memoir is that we can get stuck, and then it's that retelling that really helps, right?

For sure. Could you give us a little insight before we leave? What memoirs do you like to read? Do you have any favorites? Oh, okay.

So no, no, no pressure. Um, so anything that, um, anything that's messy. But I'll say The Chronology of Water is one of my absolute favorites because it's like an anti-memoir, right? And so that's kind of amazing. Um, anything that, um, Tracy McMillan Cottom writes, like, I'm here for because she just just, it's beautiful work. Um, but I also like dig the Twitter memoir, right? Like the short like threads and that sort of thing, um, that I think is super generative and also great. Um, so I mean, those are kind of what I find myself drawn to, right? So it's not necessarily like the big names, it's people that are kind of telling their stuff in this really interesting way, right, in social media, in these different formats. So I'm here for the Twitter story, right? Because it's such a craft and it's such a thing that kind of draws you in, right? While I also am here for the folks that are more established to kind of do this.

Absolutely. Well, you are definitely on our list of favorite memoirists. So thank you so much for all that you do. We have so loved having you. I hope we can go for a three-peat. I'm so excited about having you on once again, and we'll think of something amazing to talk about.

I know it.

And I think Paul actually has a question for Dr.

Kelly.

I came on— I just— she has— just listening to her stories from, uh, from zombie apocalypse to memoirs to everything else she does, I mean, there's the epitome of an interesting life here. Is every interesting life a memoir? My father, for example, he's long since passed away, but he went through the Depression, went through World War II, like a lot of people's generation And he fought his way up. And I thought he had an interesting life. People did. But I don't know it was worthy of a memoir. And he always dreamed, well, I'm just going to turn this into a memoir and then it's a movie. Everybody, we get people that come in our podcast studio all the time. I've had this interesting life or this successful life. Is every successful life a memoir? Are we all waiting to hear how XYZ built this company? I don't know.

So I'm torn about this, right? Like I have this like, I have this kind of like thing about we all live interesting lives, right? And we all have like the potential to be memoirist, right? Like we have like that ability, but I don't know that every life has the kind of universalness, right? So like when we're talking about like the super famous success stories, like how replicable is that, right? Like I'm not gonna go found another Amazon. Like that's, I mean, that's just not a thing, right? Maybe those kinds of stories aren't the stories we should be reading, right? Like, maybe those shouldn't be the memoirs that people are drawn to, right? Like, we should be drawn to the folks that are living in interesting times, right? Like, that there's stuff going on that they're reacting to and doing this. And so, yeah, so I would like less of the fame success, which I think are not as interesting, and more of the ones like your dad's story that could actually, depending on the narrative, right? Like, depending on how you tell that story, could be really great. So I kind of have the sense that like everyone maybe has a memoir in them. They just aren't there for it. Now, that would be a deluge and we couldn't read all of them, right? But I think everyone has that kind of potential if you really think about like the storytelling element, right? Like that's the most important is like how you narrate that story so that it can reach beyond yourself. And I think that's where people go wrong in memoir is that they think like, I'm just going to center on me. And it's like, no, no, no, your life is the way to like bring people in to think about these other issues.

So does everything have to have a bigger moral to the story here? This is an example of, of, you know, something. It's not just I had this interesting life. The end.

Yeah. No, I really think it has to do something more than just your interesting life, right? Like, I think that there has to be something bigger there, that the personal becomes the way to comment more on the universal, right? And I mean, this is the, like, joke I always make is that I have this moment in memoir where I'm like, am I a whiny jerk who's just, like, telling my story, right? Or am I doing something that readers can grasp onto as well, right? And that's usually a point where I have to really, like, think and revise, right? Where I'm like, okay, maybe this is too central on me, and maybe we need to, like, open it up in some kind of way. And I think— That's when personal essay and memoir work best, is when you can do something more overarching, right? Where you can kind of feel it in a way that if you just kind of followed along with me complaining about stuff, it's not like— it's just not the same kind of thing, right? Because we all have stuff to complain about, but why is that interesting, right? Like, and how to kind of put that in a story where it works, right?

Last question, because I only get one. We don't know if you're coming back for a three— per three-peat or not here. But does a memoir, um, you said it's got to have sort of some bigger purpose, some bigger thing. Can a memoir just be a collection of random things? The play Love Letters that took off where it was just letters throughout their life and reading different levels of letters at different points, you see what they went through. Um, or collections of letters that they find from the Civil War and they publish them because it really does show the progress of their life through this struggle or something. Is it— can it just be random collection of thoughts, or does it have to really have a narrative arc? Is it Gone with the Wind, you know?

Yeah, yeah, no, I think, I think that's interesting, and I think it's especially interesting considering if you looked at the chapters of my memoirs, they might seem really random. Like, there's a way in which the stuff that I cover is kind of an odd collection of things. Right? Like, just looking at the titles, sometimes it's like, how do these work together? So I think it can be random if you can find the thing that connects them. Like, these are letters from the Civil War, right? The Civil War is the arching thing. You know, here is Kelly talking about, like, her kid, right, in this instance, and talking about her dog dying, and talking about, like, trying to figure out, like, career. All in the same book because they tie together about these transitions. So that while on the face, especially if you look at Final Girl, you would be like, what is she doing? But those sort of random things are life, right? Because our lives are sort of random and kind of all over the place. But that there's something that you can kind of connect it together. And it needs to be bigger than my life, right? It needs to be something that's telling a broader story. But I think that can work, right? And I think I am that writer considering all the things that I kind of write about, that it does feel really random, but it is connected, right? Where people, I think, on first glance are like, I'm not sure what's happening here. And I'm like, no, really. It's like me standing in front of the conspiracy theory board with like the red string where I'm like, okay.

Yeah, right.

I promise it all works together.

Yeah.

See, this goes over here. Well, that's it. You gotta bring her back 'cause I could give you 20 more questions here.

Fascinating.

Everybody thinks they got a story in them, and yet I don't know they do, or I don't know that they know how to tell it in a way that's compelling enough to anybody other than their friends and family here that has any bigger point to it.

Absolutely. Well, I think that we've had so much great insight. I just can't wait to have her back. And who knows what rabbit hole we'll go down next? We didn't get to the zombies today, but I'm thinking next time it's a definite yes. We want to thank Dr. Kelly Baker so much for joining us today. You can visit her at Kelly J. Baker dot com, or you can follow the blog she mentioned. And also see more about the books that, that she has written. And those are, of course, available at all major retailers. We want to thank today our producer, Paul Roberts, who got to chime in. Thank you, Paul. And our executive producer, Emily Carpenter-Polskamp from Little Red Communications. Thanks so much, everyone. We'll see you next time.

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