Ep. 22: How to Get Your Book Discovered on Amazon

Welcome to the Pub Date Podcast, the show where two book broads discuss what should happen before, during, and after your book publication date. Brought to you by Broad Book Group with your host Vanessa Campos and Jen Dorsey.

Happy Friday, Jen. How are you doing? I am so great. I'm doing even better this week because I got to see you in real life last weekend for the first time in 2 years.

It was pretty great. It was cold and so worth it.

So worth it. So we won't get too inside baseball, but just for our listeners, we were at the PubWest conference last weekend, which is a wonderful gathering of other independent and small publishers. And we went to Denver, which was fun. It's kind of halfway between where we both are, and we just got to reconnect and spend time together and be with other book nerds, and it was awesome. I'm still riding the high of it.

Same here. You know, a lot of the conversations that we were having at PubWest kind of led into this conversation that we're going to be having today. And, you know, the conversation around the types of books that we publish and what ends up happening to them, how they get discovered, but most importantly, I'm— There's this big conversation around banned books, and I think it's an interesting conversation to have, and it's a good conversation to have. I have my favorite banned book, and I actually had to look this up to make sure that it was actually banned, because I'm like, how could it possibly be banned? What's your favorite banned book, Jen?

I have so many, so many that I love. Like, I love The Hate U Give by Angie Thomas. She's an amazing writer. "Her on the Come Up" is another good one. It's also banned. Lucky her. But I think if I'm going to go really old school, and speaking of books that you think, why are these banned? I'm going to go with "Where the Sidewalk Ends" by Shel Silverstein.

Wait, that one's banned?

In some places, yes. Or it's been challenged, I guess I should say. And I actually have a personal connection to why. A, why it's challenged, and B—

Oh!

How I am connected to this. So if you've read his poetry, you know, it's, it's whimsical, it's weird, it's funky. Um, he's been challenged a lot. All of his books have been challenged, um, because various reasons. I don't know, because people think there's, you know, devil worshiping in it, the whole thing. There's drug use in it, you know, all kinds of stuff. But one school system wanted to ban Where the Sidewalk Ends because it promoted cannibalism. Ooh, because there is a poem that happened to be my favorite when I was a child about someone eating the baby. Yes, someone ate the baby. It's rather sad to say someone ate the baby because she won't be out to play. We'll never hear her whiny cry or have to feel if she is dry. We'll never hear her asking why, because someone—

burp—

ate the baby.

Oh my God.

And I'm sorry, I thought when I was like in first grade, I thought it was the funniest thing I'd ever read in my life. Like, it was hilarious to the point where I— my grandmother was in the hospital, she was dying. I was very young. I wrote it out for her because I thought it was so funny, and I illustrated it, and my mom took it up to the hospital room, and Grandma God rest her soul, thought, my God, what's wrong with this child? She thought I had actually written it. So I think maybe Grandma died thinking I was into cannibalism. But, um, yeah, hey, you gotta get your protein somehow, right? You do, right? So that's one of my favorites, and I always laugh at that story because, um, you know, I was— I too was a whimsical child, and so it spoke to me, obviously. What about you? What's yours?

Oh man, I'm going to have to pick that up again and read it.

Wow.

With that new view of the world, I'm going to have to do that. New view of Jen's world. I think, and this may be why I love really bad and really good dystopian movies now as an adult, I have to say Brave New World by Aldous Huxley. And just kind of like, it's conversation about society. And it just like, when I found it on the banned or challenged book list, I was like, really, that one? I loved it. And then, you know, maybe we do have a really sick sense of humor. I guess I thought it was great.

Well, there are so many that just, they blow my mind. Like there's the one about the two male penguins who raise a baby penguin together. You know, it's a cute children's book and promotes love and inclusivity. But of course, that's not okay with some people. So that's on the list. And just all manner of craziness is on that list. Absolutely.

What?

Really? You know, and one of the things that I, you know, you and I had discussed was our love for Scribd and how they are supporting this whole movement. And I think the conversation started around the book Maus, which talks about the Holocaust. And, you know, the more and more we get into history and education and critical race theory, things are, are being challenged, but it's kind of like a little bit of censorship in my opinion. So I love the fact that Scribd is offering free access to their entire digital library, and that's ebooks, audiobooks, magazines, documents, podcasts. I think you could even get sheet music.

You can, and white papers and just reading guides. There's everything on Scribd, everything.

Yeah, so if you decide you want to get into this list and really dig in and sink your teeth into it, if you sign up for Scribd, um, before February 28th, they are not going to require a credit card, nothing to sign up, just your name, username, password, create an account. It's downloadable app, you can download things onto your phone so you don't have to use your internet, which is really, really nice, especially if, you know, you're having, um some issues. So if you are interested in doing that, go to www.try.scribd.com/bannedbooks. And this is not an advertisement, we just love them.

We just love them. Yes. And good on them for doing this and offering some really great free access to people.

Absolutely.

Great service.

So let's talk a little bit about, you know, how we're rediscovering and reimagining our thought process around books that are, you know, have been part of our conversations for so long. You know, we're talking about Maus, we're talking about books like A Day in the Life of Marlon Bundo, To Kill a Mockingbird, all these great books. And we're talking about them through word of mouth, all because people want to ban them, which is kind of ironic when you think about it. It's doing the opposite effect. So people are talking about these banned books, new, old, and they're getting attention, you know, and people are going and they're buying these books. So womp womp, sorry guys, but you're actually doing us a service. But when you think about it, you know, there are these books that are challenging a thought process or books by Margaret Atwood that have been around forever. But if you're a new author with a bit less controversial topic, like how to start and run a freelance copywriting business, then you kind of have to follow a few different rules, right, on how to get discovered. Um, hopefully one day your book will be banned, but you know, for, for the time being, it's probably not going to be banned, and you don't want it to be banned because you want people to find it.

For now, yes, absolutely.

Thinking about how do you get your book discovered, so if you run a very small business and you're, you know, out of your house, which is a lot of us, um, and you have word-of-mouth clients, which is great, but you want to write a book to kind of amplify what you're doing and get new clients, maybe share a little bit of what you know and what you've experienced, you know, your trials and tribulations of actually starting a business, you have to play with the big boys, which happens to be Amazon.

There it is, the Death Star. It rules the world. It rules the world. It does though. I mean, you know, I think so much that has changed in the world of bookselling and book marketing and metadata, which wasn't even a thing a few years ago, all of that is because of Amazon and other online retailers who have followed suit and, and taken some of what works there and, you know, changed it to fit their own model. So yeah, you have to be able to to promote your book online. And it's more than having a website, it's more than telling your friends. You really have to know how to harness the power of the backend of Amazon. And not everybody knows how to do that because not everybody is a book professional. So we're gonna— let's relay some tips here. Let's give people what they need to know to, to get started on their journey with Amazon.

Yes.

So the big word that we are trying to cover as much as possible this year to help share some of this pub wisdom is metadata. And we have Metadata Mondays on our social media @BroadBookGroup everywhere. So the idea here is to educate everyone on metadata. So what is metadata? Metadata is how you get discovered as a book. And it— very basic metadata is your title, your subtitle, your author name, and your ISBN number. Your pricing, your trim size, which is, you know, a 6x9 paperback. Those are the very basic metadata pieces that you need to include and make sure that they are the same across the board. And that's important. You would—

every retailer. Yes.

You know, as a self-published author, you're likely going to go into KDP, and you may venture into BookBaby, or you may venture into Ingram Spark. So all of these are different backends, so you have to make sure that they all match. So if you use your middle initial in one, guess what? You have to use your middle initial on the other one.

Yes, ma'am. And I think that's a good point to make too. Um, if you're independently publishing, you have to have some way of getting that metadata pushed out. So you can either, um, you know, you can have separate accounts on all these retailer sites, but that's kind of clunky and messy, and you will make mistakes like that. You will have consistency issues. But if you're going through something that will manage your metadata data for you, like in Ingram. When you put it there, that's the source of truth for all of those retailers, and then it filters out to all of them, and it will be the same, knock on wood.

Yes, and that's something I really love about Ingram versus a KDP— not pinning them against each other, but an Ingram will allow you to get really descriptive. And that's the next part about metadata, is your descriptive keywords. So of course you have things like freelance copywriting, um, you know, starting a business. But then you get into the descriptive stuff. So you gotta put yourself in the, in the reader's shoes and say, okay, I need to search for a book that is going to help me start and run a freelance copywriting business. And that in itself is a phrase that's descriptive about your book, right? And you can add that in Ingram, and it's really, really big. So, you know, this is— these are all bits and pieces that you're going to have to think about. And I like to have people think about these things before they actually create an account on IngramSpark Spark. And it's, you know, once you create that account on IngramSpark, it's going to be— it's going to populate in there. So I like to fill out as much information as that is. So we kind of have a little bit of a template that we can definitely share with, with listeners on what you should be including. So it's kind of like your starting point, what you need to include in basic and good descriptive phrases for your, for your metadata.

Yeah.

And Keywords are such a huge part of that because it's got to be SEO-friendly. It's got to be something that's searchable. Because let's say that a potential reader doesn't go to Amazon first, or they don't go to Barnes Noble first, they go to Google first. And so if they're going to look up books about how to start a copywriting business, you'll want those— as you mentioned, you'll want those words in your description because it will hopefully pull up your book in one of the Google listings and then push it to a retailer like Amazon.

That is a really good point. So I like to think of— unfortunately, I like to think of Amazon as the Google of retailers for books. But, you know, I know that Barnes Noble, Target, Walmart, all the other publisher distributing retailers are making sure that their metadata and the way that they map things is up to par because Amazon is so far ahead in the game. So make sure that all of these things are in place, even if you don't use KDP, because it's just going to help you out in the long run, right?

And just to reiterate, you can, you can enter this metadata in a lot of different ways. You can get individual seller accounts on sites like Amazon, you can go into each one and do it. But if you go through something like an IngramSpark, then it'll, it'll filter it out, it'll push it out everywhere.

It's the easiest. It's the easiest to do it that way.

And speaking about that metadata, I think you can get as descriptive as you want, right? So like, you should have a really good author bio.

Yes.

Maybe a table of contents. What else should you have?

I would include editorial reviews. So all of those nice things people have said about your book before it went to print or before it even got released. There is a special place in the backend of IngramSpark to be able to add those things, right? You know, another one of the things that a lot of people or a lot of authors really just kind of leave alone and then just ignore is the ability to create an Amazon Author Central account. And that one, you do have to go into Amazon— sorry— and create an account. And then once you're in there as an author, what you'll have to do is you'll have to claim your book. So you'll need that ISBN number because that's what gets pushed out. But when you create an author— an Amazon Author Central account, you're able to create an extended bio, you're able to create video content that you can upload, you can even add in your blog content using an RSS feed. So that's really, really cool.

That's nice. So it's almost like a little microsite for you as an author in addition to your landing page, because you should also have a landing page that's outside of this. Absolutely.

And it's free.

It's free.

And if it's— if Amazon is saying it's free, then Amazon is basically saying use it, because this is another way that your book will be discovered, right? And you—

I mean, you— because you can also include links to your business and, uh, your full bio. I mean, you can kind of go ham with it, right?

Exactly. Another thing that I love that they rolled out that, you know, for self-published authors is something that was only available to distributed authors, which means, you know, somebody who, who was acquired through like a Wiley or a Barrick Kohler. You had that ability. You were able to create some really cool graphics. It's called A+ Content. It brings your book to life and when you're in the self-publishing world, when you're in the self-publishing world, you don't really get access to these things. So they just rolled this out and I really love it because you're able to showcase the inside of your book. You're able to create some really cool shareable images. You're able to add more about yourself and a better bio, author headshot. But I really love the ability of people being able to share spreads of a nonfiction book.

That's great, especially if you have a highly visual book. You can share— yeah, you can share those bits and pieces, or you can even create custom graphics there. They do have some parameters as to what size those are allowed to be so that they work on your Amazon page. But, you know, let's say you have a really great testimonial quote. It has to be short, right? But, you know, you could make it graphic and beautiful and put it in a box and put the micro cover of the book on there. You can do things like that. You can have passages from the book, you can have art from the book. It's really only limited by your imagination and the size that they allow you to make it, right? So you can really, you know, get into Canva or get into some other program like that if you don't have a designer, or, you know, send it out on Fiverr and see if someone can design them for you. But they really just make it beautiful.

Yeah, it really allows you to to just take it further. Somebody's on, you know, on the fence about buying your book, it just kind of pushes them in that direction. And you, if you go to, um, not a lot of even traditionally published authors have this on their Amazon pages, but if you scroll down on a book page, it's actually under the, um, from the publisher section. So you got to scroll a little bit down, but it allows you to talk a little bit more about the book after the fold, which is a total journalism, um, term, which is like, once you scroll away from that header image, are you still talking about your book? So you just want to make sure that you continuously talk about the book. And I think that that's a really good option for people.

Yeah, I agree. And it just all links it together and just kind of makes it— it just gives it a more professional look and feel and picture when, when all of these pieces are in place. Because, you know, even if you were self-publishing under your, under your own imprint, or just it's a one book at a time kind of situation, you present the most professional retail storefront possible for, for your book or your imprint.

Yes. And that's something that you and I, you know, we're very passionate about, you know, being able to bring a traditional publishing experience to self-published authors.

Right.

There's really no reason why a self-published author has to have a cover that looks self-published, has to have a retail page that looks like it was from a self-published author. There are little tricks tricks to the trade that you can implement to make it look very polished so that your book is, you know, like you couldn't tell that it's self-published against, say, a Wiley or a HarperCollins, right?

And I really do think that Amazon is at the forefront of this because it's such— excuse me— it's such a seller's market for everything, right? Not just books but all products. And so if you've noticed, every time you get on Amazon, if you're— especially if you're on the desktop version, it's a different experience than it was even a year ago. Because there's almost always a live video feed at the top of the page for various products. And most of the time, you know, it's, it's the creator or the author talking with someone, talking in conversation with someone. It's kind of like a tiny webinar about the product or the book. And so those are really great. And I, I think too, if you go and you click on the main books page on Amazon, that'll— it's kind of the, the front door to the books department. There's always something going on there. They let you know, like, if there's going to be an author event or if there's going to be an interview. So you can— you can also plug into these. Now, you have to be involved in the seller program, I think, right, to get access to some of those tools. Um, but I don't think that is out of bounds for most people.

No, absolutely not. In fact, before we even got into our book partnership here, I actually had a seller account, and I was able to kind of just get rid of some of my old books and inventory that way and just tinker along with how I can actually, you know, stand apart from the competition who's also selling these books. So I'm also a bookseller, which is wild. But, you know, it just kind of getting in there and playing with the tools allows you to really understand that backend. And I think that even if you're not selling anything, getting back there, watching their tutorials and their webinars is really important.

It is. And you know, one thing we haven't mentioned yet that I think is very worth mentioning, and this requires no technical experience whatsoever, and that is to build up as many starred reviews of your book as you possibly can. And all that requires is for you to reach out to people and ask them to write a review for you.

Absolutely. And I think that the more reviews— oh, I'm sorry, we don't have to think this— the more reviews you have, the higher chance that you're going to rank, you know, you know, in the top 100s, in the top 10s of your category. And that's something else, you know, categories are really important. BISAC codes, categories. So your metadata is really important to make sure that it's vibrant and full of all the things that make you think, oh, well, maybe this isn't the case, or, you know, this descriptive thing is going to be weird, or this editorial review is going to be a little bit out of field. It doesn't really matter because what that does is that it allows your book to be discovered in other categories that you haven't thought about. And the more that happens, the more— the higher that your ranking is going to be. And I think, you know, absolutely getting as many star reviews as possible is great.

I agree.

Paul's pointing. I think you have a question, Paul.

I have a question and a comment here. The quick question is, is it obvious You're also— I know metadata is the little hidden tags, keywords. Where do you put all this stuff? Is there, is there a place when you put your book in there? Is the place— everybody says add metadata and I'm like, where?

Yes. So you're going to have to sign up for an account on IngramSpark or KDP. You know, we're not going to push you one way or another.

Or Broad Book Group.

Well, we could, we could, we could definitely do it for you. We can, and we love it. It's, it's one of our favorite things to do. Um, but you will need an account, and the metadata really is everything that you enter in about your book. The metadata is just kind of like this word that encompasses all of these things. And so all of the fields that are in that backend, once you actually sign up and have your ISBN numbers and your title and all of that, that's all metadata.

I'm going to encourage somebody to contact you. Or somebody else, because it ain't as easy as it looks. You got to do some research to what you think. This is your metadata and you find out, oh, it really should be this, or this is what I should be talking about, or I typed it in wrong, or I put one extra letter in. I said it's a podcast and not podcast or whatever. All of this stuff can really impact where you pop up and play. So that's my thought for the day. And the other one is I have— I don't want to leave on a downer here, but the word has come in that now you're— because of what you talked about in the beginning, your podcast is now banned. So we'll see if your numbers shoot up.

I love it.

I love it. One thing that I think populated— or not populated, it popped up in our conversations about, uh, Amazon and what's free and what isn't in during PubWest— was the conversation around, well, how do you know if you have the right metadata? How many keywords do you need? How, like, all of these questions. And, and to that, and I, my response was like, well, the easiest way of knowing is to start off by browsing the competition. Find books that are from distributed publishers, which those distributed publishers have, should have all of the metadata checklist, you know, set and done. But those are really a really good place to see like, okay, how are they doing it? Are they including a review in their description? And just kind borrowing from those.

I got an even easier way. I got an even easier way. Call Broad Book Group.

Yes, absolutely.

Done.

We got you. We got your back with that metadata.

So how do they reach you guys here as we wrap up?

So anyone who's interested in reaching out and asking about maybe we can do a little bit of an audit on your metadata or your book, uh, retail page, you can email us at info@ broadbookgroup.com, or you can also reach out to us on social media @BroadBookGroup.

Let's get in the weeds.

Yes, we'll tell you what you did right and what you did wrong.

That's right, absolutely. Well, in the meantime, everybody go out and read a banned book this week. Go support banned books. Get on, get on Amazon and see how those are being marketed. And, uh, let's, let's talk metadata again because I think there's so much more to unpack about this topic. We've only scratched the surface today.

Absolutely.

Right on. All right, well, we will see everybody next time. Uh, thank you to Paul Roberts, our producer. Thank you to Emily Carpenter Polskamp, our executive producer from Little Red Communications. And we'll see you next time.

We hope that you gained some valuable insights into the world of book publishing. Head over to broadbookgroup.com to learn more about us and all our services. And be sure to check out all our social media @BroadBookGroup. Until then, keep publishing.