Ep. 23: From the Classroom to the Bookshelf with Maria Dismondy

Welcome to the Pub Date Podcast, the show where two book broads discuss what should happen before, during, and after your book publication date. Brought to you by Broad Book Group with your host Vanessa Campos and Jen Dorsey.

Welcome everyone. I'm so happy to be back. I have a little bit of frog in my throat apparently this morning. Hi Jen, how are you doing?

Hi, happy Friday. I am doing well, Vanessa. How are you today other than your frog in your throat?

I'm doing good.

It's—

it's— the sun is shining. It's a beautiful— another beautiful day here in Southern California. Um, I'm actually really excited today because the person that we have on is a very special person, and I like to think of all teachers to be very special people because because they're— I like to think of them also as saints. Right.

Excuse me.

Especially now.

Especially now. But the person that we have on, you know, you and I, Jen, had talked about this earlier in the week where we landed on the conversation of getting into the book publishing industry isn't just a one-way street. Everyone comes in from a completely different background I came from. Medical device industry and marketing health insurance. Uh, so that's really boring. And you come from a completely different background as well, right?

I do, yeah. I was a journalism major in college and thought I was going to be scoop reporter with a little scoop thing in my hat. And, um, and I was a reporter for like a hot minute and realized that I hated it. And then I miraculously got hired by this tiny little book publisher, and the rest is history. And I learn from the ground up like most people do, because there's no— like you said, there's no direct path, and there are very few, um, collegiate-level programs that teach you how to do book publishing, at least the business side of it. So yeah, boom, here we are.

Boom. So we're not going to leave you guys— excuse me— in the dark any longer. Today's guest is Maria Dismondi. She started out in the classroom years before writing 10 books. That's a lot of books. She loved getting powerful messages into the world through realistic fiction, so much so that she began Cardinal Rule Press in 2015. There, Maria uses her experiences as an award-winning author to work with writers on getting their messages into the world. She takes pride in mentoring Cardinal Rule Press authors and offering customized marketing campaigns that her team coordinates and implements. And I love that because most book publishers they don't really help authors with marketing. So welcome to the Pub Date Podcast, Maria. How are you?

I'm good. Thanks for having me, ladies.

It is a pleasure. And if anyone's watching on video, you can see Maria's beautiful bookshelf. She's all color coordinated back there. It's gorgeous.

Thank you. My kids did that during the pandemic. They had some time on their hands.

Good. Hey, keep them busy, right? That's the way to do it. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Well, Maria, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, you know, how you decided to go and make that transition from the classroom into the bookshelves?

Yeah, somebody could have grabbed the 20-year-old self of Maria Zasmandi and told me to, you know, job shadow different businesses and different careers and different paths because I decided I wanted to be a social worker and then I switched into teaching and then I just thought, okay, this is a great job, I'm going to be a teacher for the rest of my life. So I went into teaching first and second grade, loved it. Around 2005, I was looking for a book to read to my class. I had a lot of Indian American students, and I wanted to read a book about having the courage to be yourself when you feel different. And I couldn't find books that really had children as characters back then. And that's when I started feeling very— strongly passionate about writing a book. So I wrote Spaghetti in a Hot Dog Bun, and it was published in 2008 by a local Michigan publisher. And the book started to sell, and I started to do speaking engagements, and I, I quickly realized that working part-time as a writer was going to pay more time working full-time as a teacher. Um, so we started our family, my husband and I, and I resigned from teaching, and I continued to write and speak and raise our our 3 children. So that's really the trajectory of my journey, but, you know, I just really wish that younger self could have maybe taken some business classes or explored— I always loved reading and writing, and I had English as a double major with education— and, you know, maybe explored the different paths of literature and jobs that are in the English department. So And not that I have any regrets, but I really thought you had to select one degree and have that for the rest of your life. And now I went from teacher to author and now publisher.

Yeah, I, I resonate with that because like Jen, I was also a journalism major. Before that, I was actually an English major. And then afterward, I was like, well, how do I apply my work as a writer? And then I decided to minor in marketing, and everyone in the journalism department was Well, if you go outside of the department, then you're gonna extend your, your time here at the university. I was like, as if I'm ready to go get a job. So I did that anyway.

And you were better off doing it anyways.

Absolutely. So sometimes you just have to trust your gut. Yeah. Um, tell us a little bit— I, I got that, uh, you wish that you could shadow things. So what are some things that you wish you had known before you got into publishing?

Well, running a business and being a team leader, um, and, you know, analyzing numbers and data to make smart and sound decisions, um, budgeting. I mean, the list goes on, it really does. But really, it's in the area— it's in the area of, I would say, like, you know, analytics and business, um, just really some basic skills that would have been helpful when I started. But, you know, I, I think I kind of skipped over— when I was writing, I did love that, but I got to a point where I no longer wanted the limelight to be about me, like Maria the author, Maria this. I really wanted to take a step back and I wanted to be the one helping others to get into that limelight. So that's when I opened, um, I started Cardinal Rule Press to help other writers. And then I could do it a little bit differently than other publishers. And the fact that I offer free mentoring as part of them being part of our community. And helping them to build their brand and really customizing a campaign that fits them as an individual and not just, you know, okay, here's the next author and we're going to do X, Y, and Z.

I love that. I think you've got to meet authors where they are, um, you know, not only from a writing perspective, like to pair them with a great editor, but also from a marketing perspective because not everybody is the right person to go out on Instagram or to do a TikTok, right? I mean, some people are really great on LinkedIn, at least like the kinds of books that Vanessa Campos Campos Campos and I do that are more, you know, businessy type of books. You cannot fit a square peg in a round hole. So I think you're, you're right on the money there. You've got to kind of harness the power of what they do very well and run with it.

Absolutely. I really appreciate the fact that you saw that there was a hole in the market for children's books. And you just took it upon yourself because that's, I think, the most important part is finding a hole in the market, filling it with really good, really good content. And I think to your point, you know, getting in front of that audience and making sure that you and the reason why you're doing it and your mission is very clear. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about, you know, the types of authors that you work with and what you're looking for to kind of expand this, your mission, basically?

For sure. Um, we don't have any huge requirements as far as authors. We have worked with debut authors, we've worked with seasoned authors. We're looking for good stories, we're looking for realistic fiction. So we still really want to, um, have every modern-day child out there be able to pick up one of our books and see themselves somewhere in those pages. And I think that that is becoming more of a norm, but I've been asked to step outside of that focus area that we're in, and I'm still filling that hole. That hole still has a long ways to go, so we're not quite ready to go out of that realistic fiction just yet. So as far as books, we're also focused on the character traits that we feel build resilient children. So for— before the pandemic happened, we have been publishing books about perseverance, and triumph and growth mindset. And so it's really focusing on those types of positive character traits, realistic fiction. And then we also want to empower children in the fact that our characters are not going to adults to solve their problems. Our characters are trying different ways to fix their problems. They're failing. They're learning from their mistakes, and they're figuring it out. So those are the kind of books and the type of authors. Again, you know, we— we, when we talked about the diversity in our authors, you know, and helping to meet them where they are, some of our authors are more comfortable writing, some of them are more comfortable speaking when we go, when we come to marketing. So it just kind of depends on all those things, right? So it's a story that we're looking for, it's an author that we feel has the capability to market themselves and build a brand that is unique and authentic to them, and then also meets our mission in Cardinal Rule Press.

To me, that's just— that's the secret sauce, right, of a children's book, is kind of having those, those pieces there. And I think you all do that very, very well. Um, for Vanessa and I, like, children's books is a whole other— whole other ball game. Like, it's definitely not our day job. So I'm fascinated by, like, the process and how it works, because I think a lot of people think to themselves, well, I could write a children's book. It's short. It's easy. I don't think it's easy at all. So could you tell us a little bit about that? Like, how do you see, like, the process of writing a children's book? What's that like? You know, then there's illustration stuff that comes into play that doesn't necessarily come into play for an adult trade book like the ones that we work on every day. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about that, if you don't mind.

Absolutely. So as far as the process goes, every writer has a little bit of a different process, but from the publishing standpoint, we bring our authors on, and I think the biggest challenge is right now the trend in children's literature is, in picture books, is under 1,000 words or less. So your challenge is to develop a character, develop a plot, all in 1,000 words, right? Have a problem, have a solution, have a setting, be able to create all of that in 1,000 words or less. So every single word that you use in a picture book is important. So yes, I think it can be challenging because I could sit down and just start writing any thought that comes to my head, but if I only have 1,000 words and I have to have an illustrator come in and be able to illustrate and build upon those words, it can be very challenging. So we don't— I don't actually— we've never worked with an author-illustrator. We've always taken a manuscript. Selected that through our submissions process, which is basically we have a couple months a year that people can send their manuscripts to us. We have 3 different editors who are reading through those submissions and narrowing them down. This year we had 2,000 submissions, just over 2,000 submissions, and we selected 3 titles. So it's definitely— and out of those 3,000, people aren't even following the rules. So there's so many that just, we barely get through the COVID letter because we say realistic fiction and someone's like, I've got this great story about an alien. No, we're not accepting that kind of a book. And so that's kind of a little bit about the process. And then once we sign an author, we like our authors to actually be part of the illustration process in the fact that we ask for a character description that we give to the illustrator. We also ask for art notes. So we have them go through their manuscript and add any art notes that they would like before giving that to the illustrator. And this is another thing that's a little different from, I guess you would say, a big box publishing house or one of the, you know, top 5. We also share our black and white sketches with the author, and we share our color sketches for feedback. And granted, we as the publisher, because we're the financial, you know, support to the project, get the final say, but we, know that the heart of the story came from the writer. And so we really want to fulfill that mission and that vision. So that's kind of how we bring them into play. And you know what's something very— it's very interesting. We never actually have the author and illustrator chat. And I find that to be interesting. And most publishers don't. So they might talk on the side about like, oh, launch events and things like that. But we just have everything filtered through our art director. I guess it's so, you know, not so many people are sharing advice with the illustrator so that it gets overwhelming.

Sure, absolutely. I think you bring up a really good point. The author kind of needs to be involved in this process because I'm sure when you're writing a children's book, you've got a vision in your head of what you think this looks like, right? So I can't imagine not including them even though, as you mentioned, they don't necessarily get the final say in everything.

Yeah, absolutely. If they want the final say, then they probably should self-publish.

Right.

A little bit more about what the— what you see, Maria, as being like the big missing piece in children's books right now, and what that goal is, and what you're hoping to kind of bring to life in 2023, you know, 2024. But what— is there something specific that you're hoping to kind of like land on a book?

You might need to bring that question up again, because I want to kind of share us a way that I've come to that missing piece. My team, you know, a year ago, we decided we need to focus on diversity, equity, and inclusion in our company. So we started having these regular meetings where we were trying to figure out how can we really do our company justice as far as the type of work that we are publishing. So we did an audit on all of our current titles, which I think were maybe around 16 to 18 titles. And so we looked at different themes in children's literature that— different themes of diversity, and I'm not just talking race or gender, but I'm talking about awareness, disability awareness, and I'm talking about age, so multi-generational relationships, and I'm just not kind of putting a box just around race, right? So there are so many different children and different ways people see diversity in the world, so we made a list a checklist, and we went through each of our books. And the goal isn't to have one book have the entire set of criteria, because I don't think that would be authentic. But the goal is that our catalog is inclusive of all these areas of diversity that we feel are important. And so with that audit last year, we found a couple missing pieces, and we— this year, we have selected a title on disability. We also have found that only 12% of our submissions submissions are from men. And within that gender, it's primarily Caucasian men. So how can we really reach out to the community of men out there who want to publish a children's book in different cultures and different areas so that we can really get different voices? So those are a couple missing gaps that we have found. And then the third one is, if you look at children today, every single child is not— looking like a Barbie. There are different shapes and sizes of our children, and that is not represented in children's literature. So that's another area. So those, those are a couple different areas that we would like to focus on.

I love that, and I love that you're bringing attention to these things that even us as adults, we're still kind of grappling with, especially in this industry, in, you know, publishing across all topics and, and, um, and genres and size of imprint. We're all still having this conversation where, you know, I— we were at PubWest earlier in the year, and the conversation we were having was around, okay, how do we bring in more voices into the conversation so that the books are reflective of the communities that we're serving? And I came back and I was talking to my husband about it, and he's like, how are you guys still having these conversations? Just, I know, hire more people that are different than you. So I think that there's— I love that you're doing it, and thank you for doing it, because yeah, I mean, other than having like, uh, books about The Very Hungry Caterpillar and things of that nature, and you just don't see children in books with their parents in that type of dynamic. So I love that. Is there any kind of criteria that you hope like an author could have before actually submitting a proposal to you? Like things that they need to start doing now before actually getting a book proposal into you marketing-wise?

Yeah, you know, it's not a, it's not a requirement, but when we get down to that last 25 manuscripts, and then we narrow it down to 10, and then we narrow it down to 5, at that point we're looking at the author's platform, and Do they have— not just are they a published author, because that, you know, you can have a platform and not be a published author, but have you started creating an audience out there? Do you have an Instagram? Do you have a blog or a website where you've been connecting with different readers and sharing your writing and sharing your process with them? And that does come into play when we get to those final numbers and we have to make decisions, because at the end of the day, we are a small publishing company. Are— we have a pretty good budget as far as advertising and marketing go for being a small publishing company. But at the same time, it doesn't hurt to have an author who has already connected with community out in their space, who has a following that says, oh my goodness, you know, Joe, Susie, and Sally are publishing books this year. We've been following them for years. We cannot wait to get their titles. It does not hurt.

That's interesting because I think, you know, for us, we're very used to having to have authors have that platform when we're doing a business book or an adult trade book. They kind of have to be, you know, a specialist or subject matter expert at what they do. When you are a children's book author, how do you, how do you establish that ethos? Because, you know, I hear what you're saying, like, you know, they need to be engaged with an audience and they need to you know, be doing all of the things, but if they— let's say that maybe that's not necessarily their day job. Like, you know, how have you grown that piece of who you are as a writer in a very public way if you're new to children's books, but you're trying to break into it?

That's a great question. I will give you an example of Anita Amin. She's one of our authors, and she by trade was an engineer after college. And spent many years as a female engineer and then really tapped into the writing space. And she has written for Highlights magazine, and she has several work-for-hire books that are in the STEM or STEAM focus, so science, technology, engineering, and math. And then she published a book with us called Raja's Pet Camel. And she really, you know, when we first started working with her, she's like, well, you know, I'm a former engineer and I'm really passionate about Many different things, but I can't really narrow it down. So we actually, we hire speakers to come into our Cardinal Rule Press. We call it the academy, but it's like our little family of authors. And so we had a woman come in and really talk about, well, what is it? Why do you write these books? And what is it that you want to share with children? And so what she did is she helped Anita come to basically what is your mission, what is your vision, and what ignites you about this writing, and that's really, what you're going to focus on. And we have another author who discovered that, you know, she loves writing poetry, and that's her thing. And we published a book last year of hers written all in simile and metaphor. So every author has a different, I would say, you know, passion. We have an author this year, Vanessa Campos, who is an activist in the Free Cuba camp, like the Free Cuba movement that's out there, and she's gone to Congress, and she's out there standing at the rallies in the front lines. And so she's very passionate about her culture and her background and where her roots are from. And the book that she's publishing with us is about her and her grandfather baking in the kitchen and him sharing their Cuban roots with her through baking. So, you know, I think it's just so helpful to help those writers. And it's not going to be the same for everyone, right?

Right.

For the writing that I did as an author, My whole focus has always been on feeling good about yourself for kids. I want kids to discover that they're unique just the way they are. They can eat silly kinds of food. They can have big hair. But at the end of the day, they're loved by someone in the world, whether they're in their home or in the classroom. They are loved, and they're unique just the way they are. So it's going to be different for each author, and it's just really discovering that. And then that's your content, ladies. That's the expertise. Per se, right? So in the children's industry, that's really what you're going to be on your platform talking about. So Anita's out there talking about STEM activities and all that, and, you know, Vanessa Campos Campos Campos is talking about tradition and family roots, and Michelle is talking about poetry, and she teaches poetry through different lesson plans on her website too.

That's great. That sounds like just a really organic way to, to grow that piece of you, and I love hearing you say that, you know, like, you— they've got an interest, they've got something that, that they're already kind of stepping into or doing, and the children's book just ends up being a really wonderful natural extension of that, right?

Yep, for sure.

So believe it or not, even when we were at different imprints, we have, uh, several authors who reach out and it's like, okay, we're obviously a business book imprint, we obviously work with nonfiction authors, but we will get those, uh, Hey, I've got a really good proposal here. It's for a children's book, but it's a very complicated topic. So we always like to connect people and say, yes, this isn't for us, but we know of a great publisher. How can people reach out to you if they have something that's, you know, something that is within this realm of the conversation that we have been having?

Yeah, you know, I found that I connect with people mainly— I'm 43 years old, so mainly in my inbox, in email. People can email me at maria@cardinalrulepress.com. And then if they reach out to us on social media, usually a team member is going to answer that. And if it's something they can't answer, they reach out to me. But I love connecting with community and answering questions. So if any of your listeners would like to reach out and chat with me, I'm happy to hear from them.

Perfect. Thank you so much, Maria, for joining us today, for sharing your background and your route to book publishing, and really for sharing your mission. And I think that it's an important one, especially as adults having it still today in 2022, that you're bringing it in the conversation to the younger audience. And I think that if that conversation starts at a younger age, then hopefully by the time that they get into our positions, then this won't be a conversation because it'll just be natural.

Absolutely.

We are raising those leaders for the next generation. So I'm here for it.

Well, thank you again for joining us, um, Maria, and we're so happy to have you. Please join us again. Um, and thank you to our producer Paul Roberts of OC Talk Radio and our executive producer Emily Carpenter-Polskamp of Little Red Communications. Until next time, see ya!

Bye!

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