Ep. 28: Build an Influencer Marketing Campaign with Lilian Sue

Welcome to the Pub Date Podcast, the show where two book broads discuss what should happen before, during, and after your book publication date. Brought to you by Broad Book Group with your host Vanessa Campos and Jen Dorsey.

Happy Friday, Jen. How are you doing?

Oh hey, Vanessa! Happy Friday. I am doing so well. I am still riding the high of my last weekend. As you know, I went to New Kids on the Block concert. I went to The Mixtape Tour— fabulous. I'm still riding high on nostalgia a week later. Uh, it was so great. Was NKOTB, Salt-N-Pepa, En Vogue, Rick Astley of all people. Um, So much fun. So great. So I'm just jamming here in my office, listening to some tunes, having a fabulous week. How about you?

I'll be honest with you. I think I spent the majority of last weekend and into this week waking up and just going to YouTube Music and playing some New Kids on the Block. And that was kind of— I was living vicariously through you.

Okay.

And by the time The Weeknd was here, it was just like, I had a nice little cocktail and then my husband came home. My husband's like 5 years older than me and I was like, do you know this song? And I started playing and he's like, uh, yeah. So it's good to know that it wasn't just for the teenage girls, it was for everyone. They were a phenomenon.

And you know what, now it's for a whole new generation because I took my 13-year-old daughter and my friend took her two teens and we thought, oh, they're gonna make fun of us and they're gonna like Listen to this, like, ironically, no. Do you know who bought Rick Astley t-shirts? Our daughters. Yeah, they were all about Rickrolling and they just, they loved every moment of it. They had a blast.

It was really cool. I love that. Yeah, I love that they're still doing it and bringing joy to everyone.

Absolutely. With their shirts both on and off, I got to say. Plus, guys, they've aged very well. Very well indeed.

Well, today we have someone who has been with us in the past and is now back with us today.

Our guest on the episode this Pub Date podcast is Lillian Su.

Lillian is a longtime PR coach and publicist who focuses on helping authors fulfill their full potential to become global industry leaders by focusing on how to build a healthy PR mindset above any strategy. She's given workshops, presentations, and developed journals and other resources to help authors really just bust down that mindset block that you get when you're like, uh, imposter syndrome. Gain clarity on their thoughts, their feelings, and the myths that they believe about PR while providing them with the right tools and resources. So let's have her provide some tools and resources to our audience. Welcome, Lillian.

Hey, Lillian.

Hey, Vanessa. Hi, Jennifer. Happy to be back.

Great to have you. We're so excited.

Yes. So last time you gave us a whole slew of tips and anecdotes and things that people could actually use in terms of using PR to storytell and gain a following. And I don't remember if this was on the air or off the air, but we started talking about like, okay, well, what can people start doing in order to kind of build that following and take it one step further with the social medias? I know our focus here is going to be a little bit about indie authors, and indie authors don't necessarily have to mean self-published authors. They could be also, um, you know, authors with a small imprint or small, small publishing group. Can you tell us a little bit about how someone who doesn't have that infrastructure can build that framework?

Well, it's as you say, a lot of indie authors can also be published with small publishers, and with that, a lot of those guys tell them going into that publishing process, you have to build your own marketing strategy, right? So that means getting on social media and really figuring out who am I as an author, what things matter to me when it comes to the books I've reviewed, what things matter to me in terms of what I want to share about my book, how do I want people to think about my writing process, how do I want them to feel about the themes that I'm sharing with them, the characters, all of that kind of thing, and really sort of discovering where you kind of fit in in the larger writing community. I mentioned that because the writing community in particular on both Instagram and TikTok is huge. I'm a part of it since I'm currently working on two books. I talk to these guys, all these other authors, on a daily basis, and we kind of touch base on how's everybody doing? How's the writing process? How's editing? Where are you at with publishing? Who's I'm in the query trenches right now. I just helped out 3 friends with promoting their story ideas with Pit Dark yesterday on Twitter. So it's really about sort of figuring out, like, how do you want to present yourself as an author first and foremost? And then when it comes to building community, really getting into following other authors. I literally just typed in the hashtag #WriteYourStory Authors Supporting Authors on Instagram my first time out, just to see who's out there, what's everybody talking about, what's everybody reading, and what's actually popular amongst the group right now. And same thing when it comes to building kind of an influencer marketing framework. I think this is kind of the unknown side of social media for a lot of authors, in part because most influencers we see deal with food, fashion, travel. Those are the big three. And within those frameworks, I think what scares people away a lot is for a lot of those guys that are used to working with brands, you typically have to fork out either quite a bit of money or you have to be willing to to comp things like products, like trips, like other experiences in order to have them essentially stand in front of their audiences and your audiences as a brand advocate and go, "Hey, this is an experience I had with company X. This is a product that I got to review from company Y and I love it," right? So I think for a lot of people, when they think about influencers, that's kind of what comes up. What I've noticed just in my experience working with authors, amassing a list for my own books, and even just kind of hanging out online, is that there are a chunk of quote-unquote book, book reviewers and book bloggers that are sort of moving into that influencer sphere. And part of how you can tell, their audience numbers is part of that. So usually anybody who has 5,000 and up of an audience, I'm like, okay, they're— they have a bit of an influence here. They have a bit of a following of people who actually will pay attention to their reviews and will pick up their books based on what their reviews are. But then when you start to dig a little bit deeper into what makes each one of them stand out and why, you know, their audience numbers fluctuate so much, I think aesthetic is a big one. And then it also comes down to how they raise awareness of these different books. So like similar to how we were talking about in our last cat and focusing more on the PR side of things. Um, for both building a PR strategy and for influencer marketing, your goals are really important. So when you're going into it, it's kind of like, okay, am I just looking for this person to help me raise awareness? In which case you would probably be better served going for somebody with a slightly smaller following, because typically people with smaller followings, you're not looking at, hey, if you want me to review this book, I can get to it 8 months from now, right? You're looking at a faster turnaround time. You're looking at, you know, sometimes what I've noticed, and this is key for media outlets as well, when you have a smaller indie outlet or influencer, they are more willing to do a little bit more legwork to help you promote it. For a lot of the larger guys, they might do it once and then it's radio silence. You have to really get on the horn and do the promoting yourself, right? Um, so it comes down to like, what are your goals in terms of like, if I just want them to raise awareness and do a review for me, that's great. But are there other ways that I can kind of— same with, you know, um, book influencers on YouTube. Do they have opportunity, collaborative opportunities where I can come on and actually talk to their audiences, or we can do giveaways? Or are there other ways in which I can kind of continue to collaborate them and continue with them and continue to build that awareness. So it really depends on like, A, what you want to do, B, you know, what your timelines are for that particular goal, and C, also like, what are you prepared to kind of do to solidify that partnership? 'Cause when we're talking about your typical influencer, The larger the audience, the more you're going to have to comp them or pay them. In the case for a lot of indie authors, you can't afford to do that. However, there's a lot of indie authors out there that are doing a lot of merch. They do character artwork. A lot of these guys that I talk to are putting together their own book boxes. Is that something you're willing to do for an influencer depending on what their reach is, what their aesthetic is, the relationship you build with them. You can definitely do a lot of outreach just tapping into even say 5 influencers. You don't have to go crazy and go, "Hey, I'm going to touch base with 50 to 100 people." You could do a bit of a tour the way a lot of authors set up book tours and do 5 and see how that works and see how you can keep the promotion and the collaboration for that going.

I want to put a pin in book tour because I think that that's very key for a lot of our audience. But I also want to go back to something you said a little bit earlier was in terms of your own process and how early on in the writing process you are and how you're just trying to get into that community. How early are we talking about?

I think it really comes down to, if you're looking at influencers, I think that research is something that can be really fluid because certainly for me, just speaking for myself on the writing side, I'm nowhere near publishing, but I find people all the time just from kind of hanging out and talking to other folks and seeing sometimes there's people that will comment on my comments and and that's kind of how it leads to that. But if you're actively doing research, I would say, you know, you can wait until you're getting, you know, you've done all of your edits and your editor has signed off and everything before you really kind of start digging into, okay, who's out there? Because things can change from week to week, month to month. People take breaks, particularly on social media. Media. People go radio silent for months because that's what they need for their own self-care. You don't want to start too early, but you also don't want to start too late where you're like, "Oh crap, my launch is in 2 weeks and I haven't done any research. I haven't reached out to anybody and I have no idea who's out there that might be interested." You really want to kind of give yourself enough time to kind of put the feelers out to there to see who's out there, who's active, and also kind of get a set of criteria in your head from a marketing standpoint. Because I've worked with a lot of other creative entrepreneurs too, they run into a lot of trouble when they don't have a set of criteria or even a framework of an agreement put into place. With influencers that kind of outlines, you know, this is what I'm giving you and this is what I'm asking for in return. And we need kind of like, I need this type of promotion done at this time, right? So really kind of reinforcing, like if an influencer says that they're going to share it in their stories, they're going to do a live video, that they actually do it. That's the other part of it. Influencer marketing that can sometimes be tricky is kind of coming up with a set of criteria that you can develop an agreement on and actually have both parties stick to that.

I'm really intrigued by what you're saying about really getting started early and what's the right time to do that. And something else that you said earlier really struck me, which was, you know, at the very base level, you can simply engage with these audiences, even if it's just as a fan for right now. Right? You don't have to be out there and saying, oh, I have a book, and I— you know, you can really almost work in an influencer capacity to amplify other authors or other influencers as well, so that that relationship starts out from the get-go not being necessarily transactional but more of a community-driven thing. Is, is that kind of what you're talking about when you're talking about laying that early groundwork?

Yeah, I'm very, very big, um, on a professional level of making my connections as relational as possible. Um, like, I've spent years cultivating, uh, relationships with people and platforms in the horror genre, as an example. I talk to these guys on a daily basis. We, we, you know, go back and forth on different opinions for horror movies and all that stuff, and we have a ton of fun with it. But I know that when I do that, um, I can come to them months later and go, "Hey, my client has a horror graphic novel. I know you read a lot of those. You want me to send you a copy for a review?" That makes it so much more organic because we know each other. Sometimes some of the media become authors themselves and then they work with me as a client. It's really interesting that way. I always am a huge huge proponent of encouraging authors to kind of get out there and talk because so much of the process, the writing, the editing, the publishing, for a lot of folks until they get to the beta reading stage and they need to find people, it's very isolating. They think that it's a lone wolf kind of pursuit. And I always have to tell them that, you know, it's not, the other thing that you could be missing out on if you don't go out there and actually talk to other authors is that a lot of authors these days, to help amplify each other, are doing things like running their own blogs, doing their own podcasts just like this, and doing Instagram Live series where they talk to other authors and everything. Just to kind of get into conversation with people and support each other, right? So I think it's really important to not even look at this as a marketing tactic or part of a marketing strategy, but more of like relationship building. Influencer marketing is very, very closely tied to PR. And I've always said that PR is about two things: storytelling and relationship building. Relationship building. And you can't get anywhere if you don't have either one of those things locked down. And it's really about pushing past that fear that people are going to judge you for where you are in the writing process, or they're going, you know, this, that, or the other. And it's like, everybody goes through this process differently. But in a lot of ways, we're also in the same boat. Because everybody has to write first before they can get to editing. Everybody presumably has to edit first before they can get to publishing. You have to get close to publishing before you can really start thinking about building a marketing strategy. When you already have those audience members and those relationships built, when you're ready to talk to them about doing a launch, talk to them about book collaborating, saying, hey, you know, I'd love to work with you to do a giveaway, they're much more receptive, as opposed to if you go to them purely on a transactional basis, and then it's like, oh, I'd love to, but I don't— like, I've got time 6 months from now sort of thing, which still can happen because you don't— you can't reach everybody, right? There's thousands of people out there, but for the people that you you can't reach, hopefully what you'll be doing is building those relationships so that when the time comes, you can do those collaborations with them and not have the vast majority of the people that you approach tell you they have time 8 months from now.

Right, right. So let's say now that you've, you know, you've gained all of these really good relationships with not just other authors. And that's what I love, other authors that you can cross-pollinate. We work in the nonfiction field where it's like everyone's doing a book about marketing, but you have to find those authors that are complementary to what you're saying so that you can kind of build on each other. So let's go back to the, um, the book tour, because that's, that's always big for everyone. I don't care what kind of book you're writing. What are some things that you could do, you know, even if you aren't able to visit the East Coast or the West Coast, or, you know, people in Canada, or, you know, wherever your audience is? Are there some things that people could do in in terms of a virtual book tour?

I think it would really help to look at what— couple different things, geographical area and platforms that you're looking to target. Like theoretically, if you could afford to travel for a book tour, where would you go? And if you're looking at going to those places, then looking at, okay, in this region, where's the indie bookstores?? Do they have podcasts or blogs where they support indie authors and things like that, where indie authors can kind of come on and do live readings of their books or do an interview, that sort of thing? Podcasts in all the different genres are really, really big. Some of them will do reviews, some of them will do interviews, some of them will do live readings, and some of them do a mix of all three, right? So it's it's really about finding kind of where are they, and by extension, where are some of the book reviewers that you are looking to target in what region. Because in some cases, if you're looking at book reviewers, you're probably going to need to send them physical copies. You want the really aesthetically pleasing Bookstagram photos that you you can use in marketing materials and that. In other cases, if you're incorporating that with podcast interviews and live readings, then maybe you want to send the host an ebook copy ahead of time so they know what it's about, they know what they can talk to you about. And it's really great because you can kind of incorporate both these areas to really sort of build it out. I find in my experience that a lot of folks tend to look at book tours as, oh, reviews. I've got to send X amount of physical copies to these different regions in these different countries and see how it does. But in reality, you can go virtual by incorporating the podcast. You can go virtual by incorporating the blogs, reaching out to indie bookstores in in those different regions, because a lot of them do have their own podcasts and things like that, their own shows as well. And really kind of building more of an international flavor to it and not just necessarily focus like, oh, I'm just going to target Toronto. Oh, I'm just going to target New York, right? So it's, it's good to kind of look at if those are the areas you would have targeted physically, and combining those with more of a virtual, online, international vein as well by focusing on other podcasts.

That's a really good tip. And, and if anyone out there is, is starting to do their research on indie bookstores, you can go on to IndieBound or indiebound.org or bookshop.org and type in your zip code or the zip code that you would love to travel, like New York City, and see what indie bookstores are out there. And Another tip that I heard through the grapevine is, and this works really well, especially with what you were saying earlier, Lillian, is, you know, connect with authors early on. And if you can offer up a panel of authors in that same genre that you're in to that indie bookstore, I hear panels are like really big for indie authors, for indie bookstores and indie authors.

Yeah, those are actually a great way for them to essentially kill two birds with one stone, right? And give their public, the book-buying public, a little bit more information about the genre, about, you know, the different authors that are out there, and also gives them an opportunity to get to know not just the bookstore but get to know these other authors as well, right? So it's— I think it's a great thought leadership building opportunity that allows you to kind of have an audience, whether it's in person or online, where they can ask you questions and you can get that sort of interaction with them that you wouldn't normally get just doing a one-on-one interview. I think it's also a great way for the authors themselves, or if they're they have, say, two authors and a marketer or two authors and somebody running a book box, let's say, to really learn from each other, build relationships that way as well. So it's definitely beneficial, I think, all around.

Yeah.

And that's— that just goes around to really put it in a neat bow to say that as a writing community, we're all here to help. And I think that that extends itself into each and every pocket of publishing, at least in my opinion, or that's maybe just the, the rose-colored glasses that I, I like to wear. Um, but yeah, okay, so Lillian, if somebody wants to, to get a hold of you, how can they do so?

Best way to do it would be to follow me on Instagram, uh, @lillian_sue_copywriter_pr, all one word. I'm on there posting 5 days a week, uh, with PR tips and strategies and stuff, and I'm often always having conversations with authors on there as as well. Any questions you have, you can always send to me. The other way to get a hold of me would probably be on my website at inretrospectwritingservices.com.

Perfect.

Yes, please do follow Lilian. She does drop a lot of tips and she inspires me to do better about social media. Do as I say, not as I do. Um, but thank you again so much, Lilian, for coming on for a second time. We hope to have you again for a third time. Soon.

Always great to have you.

Sure. Anytime you ladies want, I'm happy to chat. Always. I know there's a wealth of information out there and I'm always about educating and empowering authors, right? Because you, you don't know what you don't know. And if you don't know it, you can't use it. So.

Exactly. Oh, I love that.

Okay.

That's my new mantra for the weekend. Well, thank you again, everyone, for tuning in. Thank you, to our producer Paul Roberts of OC Talk Radio, and to our executive producer Emily Carpenter Polskamp of Little Red Communications. Until next time.

We hope that you gained some valuable insights into the world of book publishing. Head over to broadbookgroup.com to learn more about us and all our services, and be sure to check out all our social media. @BroadBookGroup. Until then, keep publishing.