Ep. 29: Things You Wish You Knew About Publishing But Were Afraid to Ask

Welcome to the Pub Date Podcast, the show where two book broads discuss what should happen before, during, and after your book publication date. Brought to you by Broad Book Group with your host Vanessa Campos and Jen Dorsey.

It is the last— is this the last weekend or second to last weekend before the second half of the year?

It is. It is. We are actually recording this in May, even though it's going to come out in June. But yeah, we're almost halfway there.

We're living on prayer. That's insane.

Literally and figuratively.

What do you have going on this Memorial Day weekend?

You know what? It's crazy here because everyone's wrapped up school. We're getting ready to do a little traveling this summer. So it's really just wrapping my brain around everybody's schedules, which is kind of like juggling cats. It's not herding cats, it's juggling the cats as I figure out what everyone's doing this summer. So that's my weekend, just preparing myself for the next 3 months of having my children at home all the time. What about you?

Oh, my weekend's going to consist of a little bit of gardening, a lot of cocktails, and a little bit of reading. I'm excited.

That sounds perfect. That sounds perfect. I am so jealous of your gardening ability because I always get the fruits of your labors whenever a box shows up full of avocados. I just— I'm grateful for you because you have a green thumb. I have a black thumb, so it's good to have friends who know what they're doing.

You only see the good stuff, Jen. You only see the good stuff.

Funny you should mention that. That's like publishing. People tend to only see the good stuff. They don't see like the mess and the sausage, how the sausage gets made.

And there's so much bloody mess when it comes to the sausage being made. So today we're going to talk a little bit about the things you wish you knew about publishing but were afraid to ask or didn't even think about asking.

I love that. We are gonna make the sausage today and we're gonna show everybody a little bit into how, even though there's so much about publishing to unpack. That's why we have a whole pod about it. But, uh, yeah, I think you and I over the years have both, in our various positions, various places we've worked, have encountered authors who we have to do a little bit of author education with, right? And they don't— they don't know. I mean, I get it, you know. I don't, like, walk into my husband's work and know everything that he does. So, uh, you know, you don't know what you don't know. But we've gotten some interesting questions over the years, so I think maybe today we shed a little light on them. Yes.

And I think, you know, we have a little bit of a blend of like marketing and agreements and all of these things. But, you know, in a lot of the roles that we've worked at in different capacities at traditional publishing, I think the biggest question is, who holds the copyright to my book?

Oh, that's such a good one. Whose book is it really? I'm an author and I'm a fancy author. They are my words, therefore it's my book. But is it? Oh, that's a good question.

It's not always— Depends, right?

It is the answer. Yeah, absolutely. So, so let's unpack that for a little bit. Whose book is it anyway? Yes, it's your words, but your words are not the only thing that make up a book, right? So lots of other people are involved with making a book, which we will talk about later because we're also going to talk about how long it takes to make one of these things and who all's involved. But You know, there are words, but there's design and there's artwork and there are illustrations in there. There's the work of the editorial staff and the work that will come from the marketing staff after the book is published. So a lot of people make that final product. But the way you know who holds your copyright is you look at your agreement. So when you're coming into a new publishing agreement with a, with a traditional publisher or even an independent publisher, you're going to want to pay really close attention and read the fine print because in that agreement it should say who in fact holds the copyright to the book, whether it's you or whether it's your publisher. It will be one or the other.

Right. And I've had a lot of conversations around this when going through an agreement with a new or even an author that we've worked with in the past and it has had several books. What I really wish people knew was even if the publisher holds the copyright, it doesn't mean that they hold the intellectual property. And that's your thoughts and, you know, your words. What they're holding is the way that it's packaged. So think about it like, okay, the way it's laid out, the way that it is designed, interior design, and the way that the COVID is laid out, all of that put together as a hardcover, as a paperback, as an ebook, the way it's packaged is— sometimes the publisher copyrights it because that's how the publisher is going to be able to make money. And also be able to protect the work because they have an investment and then you have an investment into it.

Right, exactly. And I think that's really the, the important point. And we've already had lawyers on the show, we'll have some more lawyers on the show to explain it even better. But when you read your, your author's agreement, whatever that may be, probably the way the book will be referred to within the agreement is quote, the work, right? And the work means all of that together in its final form. So it doesn't necessarily mean that they are copywriting— if the publisher in fact holds the copyright— that they are copywriting your thoughts, as you mentioned, or your concept that you're, you're talking about in the book, like especially if you're a nonfiction author. That's not what they're copywriting. They're copywriting the whole thing that you hold in your hand or that you read on your e-reader as a collective work. And so whoever holds that copyright, whether it's you or them, you're the protector of that work. So, you know, if you find that it's floating around on the dark web or, you know, someone has taken screenshots of it and they're selling it as quote unquote an ebook, it really helps you protect against piracy for one thing. So whoever is the copyright holder is the person who's going to have to go to court if anything happens with that work. And a lot of times it makes more sense for the publisher to be that entity because they have the IP lawyers and they have the money to go and fight for that. But it does not preclude you from being able to do other things with your content. So, you know, let's say that you've got a book and you want to do a course based on the book. Unless it specifically says in your agreement that you cannot do that, you can go do that. Um, how you use the book within that course is dictated by who holds the copyright, but it's, it's your ideas. So you don't have to necessarily get express written permission from the holder of the copyright to go and make a course based on it, for example.

Yes. And I think that having a very good understanding and asking all the questions at the very beginning is really going to help everyone down the line as you create those type of things. And I think that that's really, really important. So going back to the whole idea of working with it, and this is in the— let's take a step back. This is in the instance in which you're working with the traditional publisher, right? Or sometimes even a hybrid publisher. So let's talk a little bit about that traditional publishing model. A lot of people think that they have to have a manuscript, and keep in mind we're in the nonfiction business genre. That's what we're talking about right now. A lot of people think that they need to have a manuscript ready to go before they walk into this. So the big question is, do you need to hire an editor before your book goes to your traditional publisher?

I, again, it's sort of a dependent question, but my sense is for that particular category, for nonfiction, for business or leadership, or, you know, even self-help or personal growth categories, the answer is probably no. And, and the reason for that is that once you— again, if you're going with a traditional publisher, they're going to have their own editors to work on the book. Now, that's not to say that you shouldn't, um, or that maybe you You might need some ghostwriting help to get yourself over the finish line, which can also be kind of an editorial function. Um, you might need someone to help you kind of firm up the TOC, the table of contents, to make sure that all the pieces are there. But you don't need someone to do like line editing and copy editing first, um, because someone's going to do that once it gets to the traditional publisher. And so a lot of times when people hire an outside editor, they think, I'm going to do that and then smooth sailing from here, and no one else is going to edit my book. And that's not the case. Every house has their own style. Every house has what they want out of a project, and their editors are specifically trained for that. And granted, most traditional houses use freelance editors in some capacity, whether it's doing development or it's doing copy edits. So I would really talk with your, your acquiring editor if you're going the traditional route to ask them what they want you to do, because they may they may have a totally different editorial philosophy than someone that you hire. So it's, it's really kind of a case-by-case basis, but I would say not always is the answer.

As you're talking through these, these steps and part in just the editorial section of it, let's talk about why does it take so long to publish a book in general?

That's a big one that we get. I think we both get that one a lot.

Oh yeah.

Um, me when I'm trying to introduce people to the process and you, uh, because they want to know when do they get to start doing marketing things, um, right, which is early and often is the answer there. Um, it takes a long time for a lot of reasons, and I know that it's sort of the buzzword right now, but supply chain really does have something to do with it. You, you don't just publish a book and then it's magically in bookstores. There's a whole lot of gatekeeping that happens before you see a book at Barnes Noble or on Amazon or at your local independent bookseller, they have to go— they have to get printed, number one, which is taking forever right now. That can take up to, you know, 3 months in some cases. It's taking a long time for books to actually get printed. Once books get printed, if they're— if they're printed overseas, they have to get shipped by boat. If they're printed domestically, they have to get shipped by truck. Then they get to their distribution facility, which is the warehouse where all of your books are going to live until they go out to bookstores or to people who order online. And there's a whole intake process that has to happen there. And then POs and purchase orders and, you know, all that stuff then has to happen. All the businessy stuff has to happen before books then get on a truck to go to their next destination, which is either somebody else's warehouse or it's a bookstore. So that stuff takes a lot of time. So when you and I work on schedules, I know we kind of build it out from the goal date, like when do we want to see it in a bookstore, and then we work the schedule backwards to account for those things that we can't really control as editors and marketing people. Then we talk about the things that we have to do to make it a book. And, and those things also take time because you're going through, you know, a few rounds of editorial. It takes time to design and lay out a book. It takes time for you to do what you do on the marketing side to get the book ready to promote and sell. So that's why we are not just, uh, we are not just running Microsoft Word spell check and then printing your book. There's a lot more involved.

Yes. And, you know, the scenario that you're describing is typically seen in traditional publishing. And I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of rules that go into traditional publishing. And I think that a lot of those should spill over into a hybrid publishing model or even a self-publishing model, because even if you are self-publishing, I think it's important to consider all of the steps that are involved in getting the book in front of the right people at the right time, at the right sequence, so that you have that competing look with the traditional publishing. But you're still doing, you know, you're still the publisher in this case. Like if you were to go in as an indie publisher or an indie author. So I think that that is really important. And I, we, you and I both see this is I have a manuscript. I'd love to get this published next month.

Mm, yeah, no, that's, that's not gonna happen. I'm so sorry. Please, please come down to earth. Um, things take time to do right. Do you want to do it right, or do you want to take it to Kinko's? Uh, if you want to take it to Kinko's and hand it out to your friends and family, then of course you can do that yourself in a month. But do you want it done in a professional way that looks competitive with books from the Big Five publishers? Well, then you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to trend a little more traditional in how you are thinking about the process. And I think, and you're right, whether you are a hybrid publisher, whether you're going full traditional, whether you're going fully independent, all of those things come into play. Um, you know, one of the things that you and I deal with a lot, and I'm— I want you to answer this one because I feel like it's more of a marketing question even though it's going to seem editorial, but book design and cover design are super, super important things. A question that we get a whole lot, speaking of processes and people, is, do I get to make those decisions? Do authors get to make those decisions?

This may just be my personality, but I like to— I like to have a little bit more control as someone who's been in the industry, a little bit more control over what the process looks like. So even if you were to work with a freelance designer, my recommendation would always be to pay attention to the work that they've done in the past. If they have worked in this specific genre, then, you know, they're going to make the recommendations and listen to those recommendations. So I would look at this as more of a collaboration and try not to be so stubborn in the way that you think the book should look. Because there is a method to the madness. It needs to— we have to look at it from the perspective of does it look like you can read the book? Title on the COVID if you're scrolling through it on Amazon. And I think that that's something people forget because they're looking at it from like, oh, this looks so cool, looks so editorial, it's magazine editorial looking. But the problem is, is that it doesn't fit the bill. You still have to fit within a certain parameter, right, of, of book publishing in order for it to be accepted by the book publishing world, even if you're doing it by yourself. And I think that's really important. So make sure to work with people who have worked in that specific genre before and listen, be open to the things.

Absolutely. And if you do end up working with a hybrid or traditional publisher, um, keep in mind that the people that you're working with on the project, again, they are— they're industry experts. They are not just showing you book covers that they personally like. Yes, it's somewhat subjective, but We're looking at a lot of things when we decide on what a book cover should be, right? Like you mentioned, we're looking at, does it look good on the shelf? Does it look good if I'm looking at a teeny tiny thumbnail on my phone? If I'm buying a book that way, you know, does it have the right color palette for the topic? Do the fonts look right for the topic? Do they— will they look dated in 5 years, or do they look classic or current? You know, what look are we going for? And I've seen a lot of authors over the years who just say, well, I hate it. I don't like that. I don't like that cover. Well, okay, but there are a lot of things about that cover that you may not like that may appeal to your buying public and that may help sell your book. So yeah, I always defer to the experts in that situation. Um, likewise with interiors. I mean, you're looking at the pages of a book, you know, the thing that drives me the most nuts as an editor is when— and God love them— but when authors bring— they try to design the book before they turn it into you and they try to like be a book designer. Please don't do that. I mean, it makes more work for your team. We have to like undo everything you do to make it meet industry standards. So, you know, please tell us what you do like, what you don't like. We will take all of that into consideration. But at the end of the day, yeah, trust your professionals. We're here to help. We want to help you.

Yes. And one thing that I really wish people would people knew before they got into publishing or even thought about going one way, you know, in terms of like, should I pitch my book to a traditional publisher? Should I just do it myself? Should I go with a hybrid model? Is that I really wish people understood that getting a book deal from a traditional publisher doesn't mean your book's going to be a success.

Correct.

It doesn't mean that just because you're working with a traditional publisher, they have all the resources and they, you know, a good amount of time they do, but it doesn't mean that it's going to be allocated to you.

Correct.

And I think that's an important thing to understand as you go into one or the other. You still have to do the work.

Yeah. And it's a lot of work, right?

It is.

It is.

It's a lot of work on the editorial part, working with the people who have been there in the trenches, and they're going to be in the trenches with you. And then there's a lot of work after the book is published and even before the book is published. I feel like a lot of people think like, oh, well, I've done all of these things in the past and it's worked for me in the past, so it's just going to, you know, if I build it, it will come. It won't come. Sorry. No, sorry.

And don't you think that's especially true with marketing? I know one question a lot of authors ask is, well, what are you going to do, publisher, to market my book? And there are a lot of misconceptions about that too. They see it in the movies and they see on TV that people are going on book tours, they get sent out on tour— help! Vanessa Campos Campos Campos does that happen?

All the time. People ask like what well, "What are you bringing to the table?" Even at a bigger publisher, it's like, well no, we're hiring you to do the work. So it is even from a traditional publishing standpoint or when you pay a hybrid publisher to do something for you, you still have to do the work because the book is your byline. So I really wish people understood, like, the work is never over, and you don't want the work to be over. You want the work to be relevant. You want the work to continue to be in conversation in media. So I, I really wish people understood that going into it. It's like, it doesn't matter if you're going to go one way or the other, you still got to do the work.

Absolutely.

I think Paul has a question for us.

I'm raising my hand here because this whole show It should be retitled, What I Wanted to Know About Book Publishing and Was Afraid to Ask. Every week you guys bring up something, but one of the things we talked about before the show, I think you should mention. This is a business. We think it's just a lark. I'm going to do it. I'm just gonna sit back and put it out and the world is going to find it and embrace it and call me and wonderful things will happen. If you built your business that way, you wouldn't succeed. Why do we approach a book, which is a business, a different way?

Right. It's a business product. So if you're an entrepreneur or a business owner and you're— you feel like you've gotten to that mark where you have 10 years experience and you're ready to show the world what you've got, what you— what your method of doing something is, you're essentially building a new product. So everything that you've done in the past is for your business, your launch, your naming conventions, your design, your your promotion, your marketing, your— Exactly.

Yeah.

Everything needs— you need a path to go forward. You need a launch date. You need everything afterward. It's not just drop and go. You can't assume that your book's going to do great if it's just on Amazon because your book, along with— my numbers are dated here, but your book is being released at the same time as 4,500 other books every day.

Every day.

Millions of books are being released. Yeah.

Right? Just like there are millions of products coming out or millions of stores opening or a million of online stores opening.

Millions of podcasts starting.

Yeah, exactly. What makes you think that you're just going to write it and put it? It's sort of like writing a movie and then just handing it to somebody and saying, okay, that's it. It goes through years of rewrites. It goes through years of marketing and shifting. If anybody pays attention to it at all, it is, it, it, And I think that's what dissuades people. They think it'd be fun to write a book, but they're not ready to get into the marketing and the business of books. And that's why they need you.

Exactly. And, and I think it's important to remember, too, what we spoke about earlier, which is that a lot of people make a book. These people have to make a living, whether they're, whether they're getting paid to work at a publishing company or they're freelance. It costs anywhere from $25,000 to $100,000 to actually produce a book.

Wow.

It is a business. So yes, your publisher wants to make money.

Yes.

That's why your advance might be a little more on the modest side because we're paying all this money to make your book happen. So yeah, we all have to keep the lights on and feed our kids. So yes, it is a business.

Well, I got to keep the lights on here and keep the show going. And we got another one coming up on the station. How do people find the Book Broads if they need help? If they want to find out, if they can, they call and ask you the question. They were afraid to ask.

Absolutely. In fact, please email us info@broadbookgroup.com. Email us all the questions. You can find us @BroadBookGroup on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter. You can find both of us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter, and our DMs are always open.

So please find them, ask us all the questions, and you can find them right here in the BookBub Broad's, uh, podcast here, the Pub Date Podcast.

Yes, send us all your questions, please.

Okay. All right, take us out.

All right. Well, thank you so much to everybody for joining us today. Thanks to Paula Roberts, our producer and wonderful asker of questions. And thanks to Emily Carpenter-Pulskamp, our executive producer, and we will see you next time. We hope that you gained some valuable insights into the world of book publishing. Head over to BroadBooks.com broadbookgroup.com to learn more about us and all our services. And be sure to check out all our social media @broadbookgroup. Until then, keep publishing!