Ep. 3: What’s In A Book Proposal?

Welcome to the Pub Date Podcast, the show where two book broads discuss what should happen before, during, and after your book publication date. Brought to you by Broad Book Group with your host Vanessa Campos and Jen Dorsey.

Hi, how's everyone doing today?

Hello, hello.

Jen, how are you today?

I am well. It's Friday. I'm looking forward to the weekend. There are flowers coming out of the trees. There are flowers everywhere. It's beautiful where I am. And what about you? What's on deck for the weekend, ma'am?

You know, I picked up a few new books, but speaking of books and researching book proposals, You know, I'm sure like many of us have already seen who are plugged into social media, I came across Rachel Hollis.

Oh, oh yeah. Let's, let's jam on that. Yeah.

So Rachel Hollis is, is the guru of self-help, pulling yourself up from your bootstraps kind of lady. And it was over the weekend, last weekend, she, she put out a really weird statement that someone who has so much to lose probably shouldn't do. So I wanted to pick your brain about this because it's also a conversation about platform, voice, and privilege. So what is your take on Rachel Hollis and her statement about how she doesn't want to be relatable? Really, the overall, I don't know, disrespect that she had for the people that helped her get to where she is. I want to say.

Yeah, I mean, that's— I think that's the big book news this week. There's always book news, and, and I love it that we're, we're kind of kicking it off here with a little bit of that today. Um, yes, it's— it was a tough video to watch. Um, I believe it's already been taken down, but I'm sure that you can find it, uh, because the internet is— the internet is forever, right? Uh, which is the problem. So, uh, yeah, I, I think that, you know, she— A, she shouldn't have said the things that she said, and B, the reaction to it was very, very justified because, you know, here's someone who's writing books, who's got a platform based on giving advice to people and to explain to them how she thinks they should, you know, do life or how it's worked for her. And so to, to kind of come out and say, well, I don't want to be relatable, I, you know, I'm rich and I deserve it, and, you know, screw you if you don't like it, I— that's just not that's not useful for someone who writes those kind of books that really are rooted in what we talked about last week, like telling the story and being relatable and, and being that person for the reader. And so yeah, it hit in all the wrong ways. And quite frankly, I thought that the, the quote-unquote apology was also pretty empty. So that's my take. What is your take?

So a few things. One, it really rubbed me the wrong way that she described the people that help her as the people that scrub her toilets.

Yeah.

And that's just— come on, man. And then after the whole thing happened, she actually threw her team under the bus and said, you know, I listened to my team and I really should have done this apology earlier.

I'm like, come on.

And that really hit home for me where you just need a scapegoat. And, you know, being on this side of publishing, being on the side that we're going to be your team for the author and helping you move things along and giving you advice. The fact that her team was probably like, oh, you know, duty, don't do that, say something now, and maybe not walk it back, but own it. That just bothered me.

Yeah. And I think that brings to light a really important topic that we definitely should do a show about, which is You know, publishing is not one person. There's, there's a huge, huge ecosystem of people who help make the book what it is and who help you become who you are as the author. You are not out there doing it by yourself, even though, you know, you might want to think so. And so I think to throw people under the bus who, um, you know, who helped get you there, it's just, it's bad press and it's, it's just not a good approach. And so, um, I would not recommend doing it that way in the future at all. Right.

At all. And, you know, I think that the biggest thing that really irks me is that, I mean, I haven't checked. I honestly don't follow her. Full disclosure, I never liked her, but I'm pretty sure that she hasn't lost followers and she won't lose sales. And, you know, and I think the biggest conversation there is the reason why is because her followers are just like her.

You know, the books are definitely written for, I think, a very specific type of reader, and she speaks to that audience, and she does do it very well. And so no, I, I don't think so. I think it'll be a real test of her brand, not only her broader brand, but particularly as an author, because now, uh, you know, should she come back with a new book, what will be the promise of that book, right? And, you know, if you're not going to want to be relatable then how are you going to want to get people to buy and read that book? So I think that's, that's going to be a big hurdle for her going forward.

Well, chances are that she's just going to wake up one day and write a book about her new divorce, even though she and her husband or ex-husband, soon-to-be ex-husband, are spewing out relationship advice.

You know what? This is a really good reason why you should have a good book proposal. Yes. Hey.

So book proposals, um, and you know, this is, this is something that is the center of what it means to, you know, to put yourself together, you know, get up and wash your face, girl, and put a book proposal together because, you know, it's, it's important. It's the roadmap for not just yourself, it's a roadmap for your book publisher. So let's talk book proposals. Specifically nonfiction.

Let's do.

I'm going to ask you, Jen, because you've been acquiring books for a really long time. So what is the book proposal and who wants to see it?

Beautiful. All right, so first of all, this is not something that, that fiction people really care about because fiction writers typically do not write a book proposal. They write pitches, and that's, that's a whole different ball game, right? So Book proposals are really for non-fiction writers, um, and what they are is basically just a way to, to say, here's my book, here's my idea, here's me, do you want to publish it? And so I like to kind of equate it to a business plan. You know, if you're familiar with, with writing a business plan, you sit down and you say, here's the market for my business, and here's my idea, and here's how much all this is going to cost, and here's why it's going to succeed. A book proposal is is a business plan for your book. And so you really have to kind of lay all that out there, say why you're the right person to write the book, why this book is different from other books like it in the marketplace of ideas. Um, give us a little sample of what your writing is like, because we'd like to know that you can in fact write, um, and talk a little bit about that all-important platform. So there are a lot of working parts. And as an editor, as an acquiring editor, I have to look at all of those things. So I have to wear my editor hat, but I also have to wear my marketing hat when I'm looking at it and kind of, you know, see the convergence of those two worlds in the book proposal.

So let's say, you know, you're, you're a, you're a business owner, you're a coach, a consultant, self-help guru, and you have an idea for a book. Chances are that you already have a business, you've already gone through this process. And I've seen this. I've seen people who have had what seems to be really successful businesses, and when they are ready to present their book to a publisher, the book proposal falls short. And, you know, it's not always, you know, apples to apples. And I need to ask you, because I know what I see and it's just like, ah, you know, I really wish you had mentioned X, Y, and Z. But what are the biggest mistakes that you see in book proposals, or something that is maybe like a great topic but it falls short here, or an author that looks good on— I guess it's not paper, but, you know, good on their website and social media, but where are they falling short in the proposal?

Oh, that's a really good question. So I'm gonna put on my editor hat to answer that, and then you can wear the marketing hat, you know, when we get to that piece of it. So I think a couple of things really stand out to me. A, of course, is just the quality of the writing. And I say that with a star next to it. I say it with a caveat because in nonfiction, people are not always writers first, and that is okay. That's fine. I mean, not everybody makes writing the biggest chunk of their business. If they're successful in whatever it is that they're pitching, whether they're a self-help guru or whether they've written an amazing cookbook or they're a great chef or have, you know, an amazing marketing business, whatever it is, I want them to be the best person at what they do, right? So that doesn't always translate into them being able to write about it. So I get that. But that said, I, I at least want to know that you can put basic thoughts together, right? Uh, I mean, that's kind of important. And granted, that's, that's the role of ghostwriters, which, you know, maybe we'll attack that on another show, but I do want to see that at least the thoughts are there, right? There's a cohesive— there's a cohesive train of thought. You don't have to be the best grammarian in the world at all. That's what we have editors for. But I want to see your thoughts put together in a way that makes sense to me as someone who may not know your topic or, or who might be new to it or learning more about it. So I really look for those more developmental substantive pieces. Does the idea really sing? Is it a cool thesis? Is it a neat idea? And by neat, I mean, you know, is it unique? Um, I think in every single book category, it's a— there's a lot out there, right? And so, right, we have to kind of say, all right, well, what's the niche here? Riches in the niches, right?

Exactly.

All the time.

So, question for you, um, how much writing should be included in the proposal. So do you want to see a full manuscript?

No, no.

And why is that?

Well, with nonfiction especially, um, I think having an outside reader like an editor, like an acquisitions editor— one of our goals is to kind of help you mold that book into something that, that fits a new line item that fits a new part of the niche. So if you're not necess— if you like, your idea is new and different, or it's a spin on an older idea, um, our goal is to help you get it there even more so that it really stands out in the marketplace. And so if you go out and you write the whole thing, you've done a whole lot of work without any guidance from your publisher, and I don't think you want to do that.

It's—

we're a team, and we talked just a few moments ago about who all's involved. And so that's our goal there, to kind of help you hone it for, for the marketplace. So don't write the whole thing. I want to see your table of contents. I want to see a sample chapter or maybe two. That's it. Don't go deeper than that, because if you, you know, spend all your time writing something that then the publisher is going to completely scrap, you've wasted a lot of time, right? Yeah.

And that's a really good point in terms of, you know, how much are you as an author willing to let go, you know, creative— I'm not writing-wise, I'm going to say creatively, because there's some creativity, and, and there is creativity in writing because you do have to be, you know, aware of what differentiates you in the marketplace. But the book proposal itself, I know you've seen a lot of them, and I know you've seen great ones, and I know you've seen really shitty ones. Um, what is the one thing that you really wish authors would stop doing?

Oh gosh. Oh, there are so many of them. Do I have to— do I just have to pick one?

Just the one. Like, if it was like the one thing that really is just like, God, stop. Just stop.

Right. Oh, I think the one thing I would beg of people is to do— well, it's not really a stop. Okay. Stop pulling all of your competitive titles from the top 5 list in your category on Amazon.

Yes.

Stop doing that. Okay, we know that Jen Sincero writes great books. We know, you know, we know about Malcolm Gladwell. We know because those people are in their marketplace, right? We know Guy Fieri is a very famous chef and, you know, has cookbooks. I realize that those things are out there. I want to know what competitive titles are most akin to what you're writing, not what the biggest are in your overall category. So please stop doing that. Do a deeper dive, do a little more research, click past the first page of Amazon results, and tell me why you're different.

That's a good point.

And, and that actually brings me up to the point of, uh, of the things that in, in terms of a book proposal, you know, competitive titles I was just gonna say, let's, let's flip the script and you talk, you talk to me about marketing a little bit because comp titles are, are really, really important, and I think the marketing starts there.

So comp titles, if your book proposal says something along the lines of, there's nothing on the market that's like this, I'm probably not going to keep reading. Sorry, there is. And that also talks to me about the fact that if there's nothing on the market then who's your audience, right? No one in the market. And then usually those same proposals will include something like, everyone is my audience.

Mhm.

And that's a problem. That's a problem because we want to narrow it down to the 25,000 people in the country who are going to likely look at you, say, I relate to this person and I want to learn about this. And I'm going to say 25,000 people because that's a really small niche. Those are very specific people. And going back to your point about competitive titles, yeah, go, go to page 2, go to page 3 of Amazon. Take a look at who, who people are, are, who is following you and who they're following, because that's a really good place of finding, you know, other people who are probably talking about the same topic, other people who have probably written about the same topic. And granted, they have a spin on it and you have a spin on it. That's why you guys have mutual audience members. So yeah, those are really big things. It's like, don't tell us that there are no competitive titles, and don't tell us that your book is for everyone. It's not.

It's absolutely not.

If you say those things, chances are that they're neither.

So then what, what do you want to see from a marketing standpoint? Like, that's your what not to do. What's your big to-do? What sells it for you?

So what sells it for me, and this is something that it's just kind of like that balancing act struggle. We work together and we were publishing midlist authors. So that means really that you're not a Rachel Hollis, you're not a Malcolm Gladwell, but you are, you know, a thought leader within your own network of people. And that may mean that, you have a small business and you bring in 5,000 unique visitors to your website and you blog about the topic that you're talking about and you are a guest blogger on other websites. And, you know, keep in mind that these are the things that I want to see in a book proposal. And you're writing on the topic, you know, and that you have spoken at events and you have booked interviews, you've booked podcasts with the Book Broads. So, you know, those type of things, I want to see that you've done it. We don't necessarily want to focus on, you know, what you want to do. It's—

this is—

the book proposal is not a place for your wish list. This is not a place of, you know, once the book is out. No, the work starts yesterday, you know. So that, that's, that's really what I'd love to see. A lot of the times people forget, you know, like, oh, I have a website. How many people come to my website? Where are those people located? Because from a marketing perspective and a publisher's perspective, they can then book ads in those specific areas. They can then book— find lookalike audiences to serve ads to. And that's in order to help you in your book strategy. So one of those things is like, pretend that you're putting this together for yourself as a business plan and how this book fits into your your business strategy. Because I'm sorry to say, the book publisher is gonna try to get you in as many places as possible, but at the end of the day, they're just looking to amplify what you already have. You need to be a viable business product, and you need to come into the process already ready to sell. If you sell or have webinars that are, you know, getting 25 people, but, you know, 1,000 people, um, opened up your, your email about it, that's also really good information to know because we want to see what percentage of the people actually— how many people you were able to reach and how many people actually showed up. And that's not a bad percentage. I mean, to be honest with you, I will take those 25 copies because at the end of the day, that publisher will likely add you to the list of their events upcoming events. They'll do everything that they can to help you. But that's, that's the number one thing is that you have to have that piece in place.

Right. And you brought up a really good point, which was don't tell me your wish list of marketing platform. Like, don't say what I think I'm going to do. Don't say I know this person who can maybe help me. Definitely don't say that you're going to send it to Oprah. I mean, you can. I mean, go for it. But yeah, to me, I would rather have realistic data and realistic numbers for that platform and what you're already working on than your wish list of what you hope you're gonna do. I have another question for you on the marketing side. What's the scoop with social? What's important? What's not? When you're looking at someone's social platform, what matters to you as a book marketing person?

So in terms of social media, what I like to look at is how many people are following you. But not only that, are you engaging with comments that are coming in? Are you blogging? And are people asking questions? And is that a conversation that's happening? Because chances are you're not, you know, Tony Robbins and have millions of people who work for you and can answer these questions. So that's really the conversation piece, is as, as a midlist author and as a small business owner, You need to have that conversation with people on social. So even if you have 5,000 followers, 500 followers, 150 followers, tell me how engaged you are, because that's more important than having a large audience that you can scream into, but no one responds.

Right. Yeah, for sure. I mean, there are ways for people to know that, right? I mean, there are, there's Google Analytics, there's Facebook Analytics. Uh, you don't have to be super savvy. You can hire somebody to do that if you really want to.

Oh yeah, absolutely. There are several, um, easy-to-use platforms that you can just plug in and figure out what your score is, and we can share those on our website and our social media later with everyone. So yes, there are easy-to-use tools that you can, you can use to analyze yourself. Let's Google yourself. That's a really good starting point.

Yeah, absolutely.

So question now, now that you have a plot or a book proposal, you have a platform A lot of people are wondering, does it make sense to actually hire a literary agent if I could just do it myself? What are your thoughts, Jen?

That is such a big question. It's such a huge question because it depends on goals and it depends on what kind of publishing situation you want, and it depends on your house that you, you know, what size of publishing house you want to go to. There's so, so much there to unpack. So much to unpack that I think we ought to do a whole show about it.

I agree. In fact, next time that we get on the, on the air, let's invite a literary agent so that she can ask all the questions.

Let's do, let's do. I want to pick their brain. I want to know the inside scoop on what they look for and what we need to help people learn how to do so that they can sell their book.

Yes, absolutely, because we can give you the insight on editorial and marketing, but they'll be able to publish or to give you the publishing side of things, the real truth, the truth truth.

Yes, I want it. I want all the dirt. I want some stories, the whole thing.

That's a done deal. We'll go ahead and make that happen.

All right, let's do it.

Until next time, join us on Pub Date Podcast as we talk to literary agent and ask her all the nitty-gritty things on what should and shouldn't happen between your book proposal and actually signing an agreement.

Oh, I cannot wait. Thanks so much, everybody. Have a great weekend. Thank you to our producer, Paul Roberts. Thank you to our executive producer, Emily Carpenter Polskamp, from Little Red Communications. We will see you next time.

See ya!

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