Ep. 32: How to Find and Work with a Literary Agent with guest Wendy Keller

Welcome to the Pub Date Podcast, the show where two book broads discuss what should happen before, during, and after your book publication date. Brought to you by Broad Book Group with your host Vanessa Campos and Jen Dorsey.

Hello friends, how are we doing?

Jen, hello, welcome, welcome to the pod. I'm well, how are you today, Miss Vanessa Campos Campos Campos?

I'm really excited because not only do we get to talk to the very first literary agent that we've had on the show, but also a really good friend. And honestly, I love that she's on today because she's gonna really tell it like it is, and I appreciate that because there's so many people out there who want to tell you what you what they think you want to hear. So I'm excited. Are you excited?

I'm so excited because, uh, this guest not only is going to give us the, the straight dope on what it is like to find and work with an agent, uh, she is going to give us that, that unvarnished truth, uh, but with love, because that's what she does, and we love her for it. Welcome to the show, super agent Wendy Keller.

Hey, thank you. Thanks so much for having me on. I'm so excited and I've heard such great things about what you guys are doing with your publishing company right now. So this is a big honor. Thank you.

Oh, we, we love having you here. And, you know, the three of us go back a really long time. Uh, we've worked together on many, many book deals in the past. You, you've even written a book for us in the past, not for Broad, but in our other life at another publishing company. And so, um, I think we've, we've been on all sides of the fence together.

Isn't that the truth? And had fun every time. So You know, that's good memories.

We've got a lot of good stories and a lot of good memories to share. Yeah, well, I just, I want to dive right in because I don't want to waste any time with you today. Um, you have been an agent for how long?

Um, since the Paleolithic period. Oh wait, no, since 1989. Sorry, same thing.

Since the dawn of time.

Yeah, I used to say since the dinosaurs, but you know, they're passé now.

That's true, they're so yesterday. Um, have you You have seen then publishing change and grow over the years from, you know, the insanity of the late '80s and early '90s and the, in the big boom times and the big box stores to ebook and then audiobook.

Oh my goodness.

Yeah, you've seen it all.

I have.

But I think the one thing that seems to kind of always be a part of the conversation is literary agents. And so talk to us a little bit about First of all, who needs one?

Well, that's a really great question. I would say that individuals who need a literary agent are people who hope to sell their book to a publisher for money. You know, there's lots of options now that didn't always exist where you could pay someone money and they'll publish your book for you, or you could figure out some deal where maybe someday they'll give you money, possibly under the right circumstances if the stars align. But But my job is to say, okay, this is good, this is bad, this will sell. I know who to sell it to and then place a deal with usually, you know, one of the biggest, one of the big midlist publishing houses in the country or, or with one of the big houses depending on who that author is and what they've got to offer and how refreshing and unique their content and their platform are.

Right. And we should preface this conversation by saying that you work exclusively with nonfiction clients, right?

Right. And I don't handle fiction. I don't handle true crime, although that's nonfiction. Books. And I don't handle any stories about how you were abducted by aliens, or you're channeling the ghost of Princess Diana, or, you know, any of that kind of stuff. And I see that every year, which is why I say that. But every year, some dead person writes a book through someone who wants to be an author. But to be, to be specific, my expertise and my reputation are built with publishers. And those publishers expect me to sell high-quality clearly vetted, ready-to-sell, differentiated content from great authors who have credentials in business, science, or self-help. Those are my big categories that have brought me the bestsellers that this agency has had and the millions of copies of our books that are out there around the world.

Right. So when people are thinking about whether or not they are that person, whether or not they are the person who needs to find an agent, What should they be— when they do make that decision, they say, yes, that's me, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna go for it, I've got the platform, I've got the book, I've got all the pieces here, or at least I, I think I have all the pieces. When they go out and start to look for an agent, what do they look for?

That's a really good question. So I always tell people, I have this little YouTube thing that goes into it more deal details, it's called, uh, Wendy Keller's Rule of 30, which is a really something to consider because this is a hard problem for many authors. But if you have a platform and a proposal or a book or whatever then you should be judging agents on two criteria: those who have sold books like yours and who are still selling books like yours. I started my career in screenplays, but I don't handle screenplays anymore. I used to sell all kinds of nonfiction until I became a recognized expert in the three categories—business, science, and self-help—that I sell now. So there are books on my sold list that represent what I used to sell, but I don't sell those anymore. The reason for that is because the author wants an agent who has good relationships with the editors, because ultimately it's the agent's ability to present and sell your material to the editor because it matches what that editor wants to buy that makes that agent valuable to you as an author. Right. They have sold and are selling books like yours, and it's not an endless process. The Rule of 30 on YouTube basically talks about, you know, if you haven't gotten an agent in 30 queries to 30 agents who have sold and are selling books like yours, you still don't have an agent, guess what? Either your material is lousy, your query is lousy, or the book idea is lousy, or you don't have a platform. Those are the only options. There's not some other magical formula. You don't get a brownie point for, you know, your 493rd agent because we're just going to keep saying no. Be smart about it. That's the big thing. You have to be smart about it. If you want to play this game to win, to get an advance, to get a great publisher, to be able to generate the kind of publicity and assets that you dream about happening because of the publication of your book, you really have to get your act together from day one. I mean, we can help people do that at some level, but you have to show up with a good idea and the credentials to write it, right?

It's so funny you mentioned that. I, I work at a co-working space, and I rent space at a co-working space, and it's fun. You meet a lot of characters, and, um, and some of course, was asking me all about what it is that we do for a living, all of us. And he said, well, I've got a book idea. And I said, oh, that's great. Of course. And I said, so are you the expert in that topic? And he said, no, I'm just interested in it. And I thought, oh, you sweet summer child.

No, that is not going to work.

I had a guy write me last week on LinkedIn who I don't know, and he basically said, I'm ready to write a book. I've never heard or spoken to this guy before. Ready to write a book? Tell me what you want me to write about. I was like, oh, well, you know, and people write me. This is the other thing. This is my personal pet peeve. And I accidentally fell into a hole once, but I represented an author who was a speaker on leadership. And this was a very big deal. I got him, I got him 6 figures back in the day. And because he was giving so many speeches and I was really, I really love working with speakers because they have a built-in book distribution and publicity platform. And that's kind of my niche in the world. Do speakers and authors and authors who want to become speakers, but whatever. But this guy was a leadership expert. And about 2 years after I'd sold the book, I said to him, you know, your resume, when were you a leader? And he's, well, I have my wife working for me, and we have a part-time helper coming in. And that was his entire credentials. Having known that, I would never have sold a leadership book by him because it's out of integrity. The publisher would never have acquired that book. And it would have been a very different experience. It would have been— that would not even wouldn't happen now in the industry. I sold that book in the early '90s. That wouldn't even happen now because they want to know— if you're writing a weight loss book, they want to know that not just you lost weight and your sister-in-law, but also that you've helped hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands, or you have clinics, or you're a doctor, or a doctor's writing with you. If you're writing a business book, they want to know that you have experience in the category, in the genre, and that area, that you've got something unique, that you've read the other books, that what you're about to contribute is not the same old, same old, and that your resume will stand the test of time. Because journalists, podcasters, they're not taking on anybody who doesn't have that background, who doesn't have that strength. You really have to show up with your act together, right?

Absolutely. Well, and that speaks to all the work that we've done together on talking about platform. Heck yeah. I mean, heck yeah. And for the people who don't really understand the concept of platform or for whom that phrase is new, can you tell us a little bit more about that? I mean, we've touched on it obviously already here. But what exactly does it mean to have a platform as an author?

So to be more thorough with that, I'm actually the author of the Ultimate Platform book. Yes, you are. Yes. Ultimate Guide to Platform Building. There it is with Entrepreneur Press. That was my personal 31st book. And, and so that's the long answer. But the short answer is a platform. When I'm looking for a platform, which is the first thing I look for after I recognize that the content is in sales management, marketing, finance, entrepreneurship, whatever the business categories, or self-help, everything from parenting to how to train your dog, or in science, or so quantum physics or biology or whatever it is that I'm about to sell. The next thing I look at is whether that author has credentials. And then the next thing I look at is whether or not they have a platform. What I wanna see is a platform usually includes some combination of does this author have the speaking platform that they're on? Are they speaking 20 or more times a year and getting paid for it? Are they out there building a social media platform? I had someone yesterday who's writing a business book who said she has a large Instagram following. That has nothing to do with the subject of her book. An Instagram following is because she's probably cute in a bikini or whatever it is, or makes lovely cakes. I don't care about that. She needs to have it on LinkedIn if it's a business book. She needs to have it on, you know, different— she needs to have it on Facebook if she's writing a book on planning for retirement or whatever. She needs to have different— you need to have a platform that matches. So social media doesn't sell books, but it proves content, right? Social Media Publisher in New York is going to multiply— you've got 1,000 people, we're going to multiply that by 0.02% to find out how many are going to convert to book buyers. It's worse on Instagram, TikTok. But I have a client who's in the top 1% in the world on TikTok. She's a superstar, and she got a huge advance from HarperCollins. She's also a speaker. She has a platform. She has credentials. She's hugely successful. That's Tessa White, for those who are interested. So the point is that she is got— she's got all the parts to it. If you come to me and you say, gosh, I've got some things and I don't have other things, but I'd really like to put them together. And you have the right content, maybe I can help you. Maybe I'll volunteer to help you. But for the most part, if you don't have anything going, if there's no third party besides your mother who said that, gosh, this is a great idea for a book, no agent can help you. It won't make a difference. You need to have credentials and you need to have a platform, at least a modicum. For my platform, requirements are larger than, for instance, beginning agents because I'm a crusty, grouchy old person. But, um, I like to think of myself that way. But, um, but the truth is, you know, newer agents sometimes will take people on, but you're kind of getting what you pay for. All agents get 15%. You know, if you're getting a new agent, they may not be able to pick up the phone and call the editorial directors of the major houses in America, and they may not even know how to get in those doors So your advance would be smaller, your expectations would be smaller, and what happens to the book is subject— once it's published, is subject to many more nightmares if you have a young baby agent. It's better to build the platform and find an agent who's done it a million years, you know, and, and who will really help you and guide you so that you avoid the rocks and, and succeed with the book and create— my thing, my expertise is in marketing. So how do you market the book? How do you grow that platform so that you're selling copies and you're using those copies to build your business? The first question I ask an author when they come to me invariably is, what do you want the book to do for you? And unless I'm in a good mood, I don't add the piece, which is I know it's going to save the world and help people and give back and all this other garbage. But that doesn't make you any money. It doesn't make a publisher care. No one cares. And it certainly doesn't make this agent care. What I want to hear is, I need a book because my consulting program only did $2 million last year and I want to move it to $5. I did 10 speaking engagements at $15,000 and got it in my mouth that I really like the taste of speaking. I want to expand my speaking business. Speaking tends to get me more consulting engagements or more coaching clients. I only have this many patients and I want to open a third clinic now. And so I want to write a book to provide that attraction factor for clients so that they know that my clinic can do this better than anybody else in the nation. That's what I'm looking for. And if you've got those answers and that power drive, focus on building your business or building your career as a result of that book, then suddenly we can all build on that. And the publisher sees the dollar signs when I convey that powerful message to them. That's what everybody's looking for. That's the way the business is shaken down, you know, in 2022.

Yeah, I love that you called it baby agents and baby authors because it's true. It's that baby stuff. And a lot of the times people think that as authors you feel like this, this moment is now, I have to take this, this small advance instead of like, I'm on the journey to build my platform. But this advance is really nice because it's, you know, 5 figures from a, from a decent publisher. So it's really kind of figuring out like, well, how much is that advance worth to you right now? Breaking it down to the time that it's going to take you to actually write the book. And then actually market the book. Because a lot of people feel like, okay, I've written the book, it's at a good publisher, I can stop now. And that's a big mistake.

There are 33 million books, as you guys know, uh, there are 33 million books for sale on Amazon. The average self-published book, according to R.R. Bowker, which is the reporting and researching arm of the publishing industry, the average self-published book sells 118 copies. And I always say, my dog knows 118 copy— 118 people. He could sell 118 copies of his book. The truth is, if you don't have a platform now, writing a book will not help you get one, because out of 33 million books, people don't know your material is out there unless you tell them it's out there and direct them to it through your speaking, through your social media, through media media, through podcasts, through writing articles, through being interviewed in the Wall Street Journal, whatever it is that you're going to get. And it's not time to write a check to make that happen after the book has already been sold to a publisher. The time to start building that powerful proof of concept is before you start trying to get it published. Whatever is gonna happen to your process, you must have the modicum of a platform to prove that the world is interested in it outside your family and colleagues.

We get a lot of people coming to us and saying, I have a platform, people are listening to me, but they don't necessarily have that what makes them unique. They are seeing people come to them and they're like, oh, people must be interested. I should write a book. What do you say to those people?

My acronym that I've used since the early '90s when I was teaching a lot of classes for, at that time, the Learning Annex, I came up with the acronym NDBM. That stands for new, different, better, or more. Unless an author can come presenting something new, different, better, or that offers the readers something more, it's illusory that they're ready to publish. So people come to all of us all the time prematurely. They don't have a platform and they haven't fully baked their idea, right? So for those of you who are bakers, if you've ever put something in the oven and pulled it out and stuck a toothpick in it and said, "Gosh, this is still gooey on the inside," I would say that 99% of what we reject is rejected because it's still gooey on the inside. You need to think about how to differentiate your content. The way you differentiate content is you read competitive books to determine what's already out there, and you take the time to read the trade magazines of the industries that your material is most applicable to, and you take the time to read the current media if your subject is one that appeals to the general public. Read the magazines, 'cause magazines, as opposed to newspapers, represent the distillation of the culture's thinking on a subject. They're much more refined, they're much more reduced, like a, a fine sauce. So you have the opportunity to read the magazines and make a decision about how to differentiate your content and then continue to test it using your growing platform to find out if you have created something that's ready to be sold. Because here's the difference. People tell me often, and this is a very bad idea, they'll write my agency and they'll go, you know, 15 agents have rejected this, so I'm giving you a chance. And we already know we're not going to be able to take it on when they start with their failure, right? The other thing is that I am, and I am really proud of this, but just last week, and this is fairly typical for what really happens if you've taken that time to refine and build your platform and your content. Um, I had an author— actually, I'm going to tell a different story, although this also happened last week. But about a little less than a month ago, a guy came to me, has massive credentials in his situation. I saw the proposal, I immediately called him, I spoke to him, and I said, have you sent it to other agents? He said, yes, I sent it to 6 other agents, and you represented my friend so-and-so, that's why I showed it to you. So he sent it to 7 agents total, and he had 5 agents call him within 2 days. But haha, I'd signed him. I signed him within 24 hours of seeing it. That's what really happens if your content and your platform are ready. You don't have to pitch us. We're starving for you. We work on straight freaking commission. We turn down close to 1,000 to 1,200 projects a year because they're not ready. Your job as the author is to come with that NDBM and a platform that proves the world is interested. Publishers can make you a star. They can turn the micro into a macro, but that's not going to happen by magic. You have to do the groundwork. You have to do the thinking. You have to find out what's not there now that you will add to earn what we call your shelf space, that half an inch spine on the shelf at Barnes Noble.

The fingers here, because I—

that's it. Yeah, that snaps. I agree, I agree. You know, we—

you guys, you guys are— I've known you guys long enough to know that you understand this at as deep a level as I do, and I'm honored to be sharing it with your audience. But this is not Wendy's idea. This is Vanessa Campos Campos' idea. This is Jen's idea. This is the editorial director of Portfolio at Penguin Random House. This is every publisher in America who's making money on books, not making money from self-publishing authors. Every, every single member of the publishing industry. Every agent, every editor, every editorial assistant, every editorial director thinks exactly the same. If you choose not responsible for your own failure, because it is 100% on your shoulders, shoulders, you cannot unlearn what you are learning from these two women in these podcasts and what you're learning from me today. Caveat emptor. Amen.

Can I get an amen from the congregation? Heck yeah. Amen. Let's do a group of revivals.

Let's just go around the country doing publishing revivals.

I love it. Right. Hey, I'm into it. We've already talked about getting the show on the road and it's like, let's just get a little like a little camp.

Yeah, baby. Do this. Yeah, let's do it. We'd have fun.

So here's the thing is that I know that when people are going to listen to the show, the specific episode, they're going to say, I want to work with Wendy. But I can already tell you that like maybe 1% of those people are going to be ready to work with Wendy. And I love Something that I loved about you and working with you is that it wasn't just about getting— it wasn't just about getting that, um, that contract, that publishing agreement. It was about the work to get there. Hence, you know, The Ultimate Guide to Platform Building. But I know that you also offer workshops and courses so that people can take those baby steps to get to you. Tell us a little bit more about those.

Thanks for that, Vanessa Campos Campos. So I, um, First of all, I do 1-hour consulting, uh, which is available on our website, kellermedia.com. For a very small percentage of the people who approach me for help, um, I do an extended 6-month consulting program where I build them as speakers, build the— help them learn how to build their platform, help them build their platform, help them refine their content. But I only take 4 of those a year cuz I've got a pretty busy life. I run a speakers bureau, I run an agency. And then we also, if for those who have an idea that they believe is ready to sell, I offer something called the Book Proposal Workshop. I used to do these live all over America and actually the UK, um, twice a year. But now I offer it online, and I have a team of editors who come in and edit components of a book proposal. Book proposal has 5 basic parts plus 2 sample chapters. So we lead you through the thinking from the editor's and the agent's perspective, as opposed to You know, somebody who got their book published in, you know, you know, 1997 is going to tell you, oh gosh, I can tell you how to write a proposal. Some schmuck who has, you know, part-time journalism background who's now getting paid to write proposals that have never sold. So this is an actual course led by an agent. I do the teaching, my team does the support, but every time you turn in the homework, I have editors who will read that component and come back and give candid feedback in the process called developmental editing. Most authors who are starting out need more developmental editing than they need line editing. Developmental editing means, does this concept make sense? Is it properly differentiated? Is it clear to someone who didn't come in with this baseline of knowledge that you as the author have, etc.? As opposed to, you know, is there a, is there a dangling participle or You know, are there too many commas on this page? Whatever. That's line editing. We don't care about that. We care about getting the idea right so that even if you are— don't— you don't yet have the platform, the book proposal workshop, which is available at bookproposalworkshop.com, that workshop will give you the opportunity to learn how your material will be viewed by publishers and agents and will also show you what you need to do to deepen it. And then we also talk about how in general, how do you market it What kind of markers are agents and publishers really looking for? Because as an agent, I don't personally really care if you're a speaker and you have a big platform, except that without that, I can't sell you, right? My job isn't— I don't have any skin in the game unless you're also represented by my speakers bureau. But the point is, you have to have that so that I can sell you. I'm really just the middleman. Publishers are going to say no to you. It's not that I'm being mean, it's the publishers are going to say no. We won't make any money. I can't take anything out of your check if there is no check. And I like taking money out of your check. I like shopping. I like shoes.

I love it. You know, I— we worked together for so long, and I— the course that you offer and the program that you offer is just top-notch. It's really hands-on for folks, and I can't recommend it enough, as well as your platform building book, Ultimate Platform Building. So we're getting a little plug there for Miss Wendy.

Thank you, thank you so much.

And remind us again of, of your website so that everyone can go and check you out.

Yes, kellermedia.com. My last name is Keller, K-E-L-L-E-R, media like television and radio and whatever, kellermedia.com. And if you are ready to submit a book and you go to kellermedia.com, you will see a dropdown that will lead you to the query page. We only take digital queries. Not emails. We will turn down anybody who emails us a manuscript or mails me a book. I hate that with every fiber of my being. So just go to the page, kellermedia.com, and you will see the instructions for submitting a proposal and offering us your wonderful nonfiction book in the category, in the great genres of, of business, science, and self-help. So I'm really excited about that. And You know, and I think that there's a lot of room for new thinking in the market. You don't have to be 75 and the former CEO of a publicly traded company to write a good business book. You just need to be street smart, and that's all it takes. Build your platform, have the content, and you'll be successful all along the way. And all of us, Vanessa Campos Campos Campos and Jen and I, and everybody in the industry is standing by to support and help and guide and grow those authors because that's how we feed our families.

Absolutely. Wendy Keller, your street smarts are just incomparable. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us today, my friend. We've loved having you. We hope that you will come back and join us again soon.

Oh, thank you so much.

This is an honor. It's been great. We want to thank our producer, uh, Paul Roberts from OC Talk Radio, and our executive producer, Emily Carpenter-Polskamp of Little Red communications. We will see you next time.

Bye, thank you. We hope that you gained some valuable insights into the world of book publishing. Head over to broadbookgroup.com to learn more about us and all our services, and be sure to check out all our social media @BroadBookGroup. Until then, keep publishing.