Ep. 33: Indie vs. Small Press Publishing

Welcome to the Pub Date Podcast, the show where two book broads discuss what should happen before, during, and after your book publication date. Brought to you by Broad Book Group with your host Vanessa Campos and Jen Dorsey.

Happy Friday, Jen. How are you doing?

Hey, happy Friday. Happy Friday. It's another day in books, as always. Lots going on out there. How are you, ma'am?

I'm good. You know, uh, definitely collecting more books and exploring different types of books and authors and publishing houses, because as you know, the publishing world is ever evolving, ever changing. And there's more people, more smaller presses out there to challenge the big four. Is it still the four as of today? Four, five, maybe.

We'll see what happens with this whole, um, Penguin and S&S kerfuffle that's going down with the— in the courts. We'll see what shakes out there. We'll have to do a news roundup when all of that gets settled and see if they are gonna be allowed to be the big monopoly that they wanna be.

Let's hope not.

Let's hope not.

Let's hope not. So Jen, let me ask you a question because I feel like this is open to interpretation. It depends on who you ask and what their experience with publishing is. But when you think of indie publishing, what do you think of?

Ooh.

It's a multi-leveled answer. All right, I'm not trying to be wishy-washy, but I think it's changed over time. What I think of now when I think of indie publishing is authors really taking ownership of their intellectual property and publishing books either themselves or under their own imprints or, or with a small group or within a cohort so that they can kind of own that IP and they can take their book and go out there and do all the things they want to do with it, especially if they're, you know, people who have speaking platforms or they teach courses or they do masterminds. To me, that's what independent publishing is. I think it's different from self-publishing. Self-publishing means you're, you're kind of going rogue and you're gonna, you know, hire a buddy to do the editing and you're gonna try to use InDesign yourself, and which I do not advise at all. Um, I think that it's different though. I think when we're independently publishing, we're bringing in people who are experts in the field who either provide those services, you know, in a package sort of way like a book packager, or provide individual services to help you achieve that goal. To me, that's what independent publishing is. But what do you think? What do you think of this? That is—

those are all very good points. And I just want to say that I've always thought of publishing as being this big monster of, you know, this is the way you do publishing. It's the traditional model. And so when indie publishing came out, and I think Amazon has done a really good job of democratizing the way that we look at publishing, so you don't have to go through the traditional model. But I think that when, when packagers like ourselves, because we— that's an— that's a service we offer— came out and said, we can help you because we've been in the business and we know how to do this. It started becoming like a pay-to-play and kind of got villainized a bit, calling it a vanity press, right? And it could be good, it could be bad, but it is pay-to-play. So when I was coming up in, in the publishing world, I always thought, okay, well, indie publishing is just not as good, right? Indie publishing is vanity press. Indie publishing is pay-to-play. Uh, you know, those type of things. But then when you're in the in the world of publishing, then you see all the multifaceted worlds that each individual publisher can kind of bring to the table. So it's kind of like, if the shoe fits, go with traditional publishing. If the shoe fits but it's not your color and they don't offer you the color that you like, then maybe you just go out and make your own. Well, don't make your own shoe, but you know, you know what I mean. You can go out and customize something that fits your needs. Especially when you're a, uh, when you're an author who has a platform.

Absolutely. And to be fair, I think there are some really horrible vanity presses out there. Yes, there are people who prey on authors and their lack of knowledge about the industry and, you know, have you pay a bajillion dollars and give you this very poorly designed, not edited, not copy edited quite frankly, piece of trash book that, um, that does not serve you well. There are those people, there are those places out there, and I think, you know, they, they did get a bad rap, rightfully so, but they gave everyone else who was doing independent publishing well also a bad rap. Now, like, in the early '90s, or in the late '90s and early 2000s— I'm really dating myself here— um, there, there were quite a few vanity presses out there, and there weren't that many good quality independent publishing options back then. I think the industry has changed so much in the last 20 years, um, that now authors really have their choice of what they want. You have to still be careful and watch out for predatory vanity presses, um, but we're going to talk a little bit today about how you can really vet a good quality independent press. And then we're also going to talk about small press options too. But I think now is the golden age, as you mentioned, of democratization of publishing, where where authors really can just go out there and, and pick the path that's best for them. There's a lot of good options out there, right?

And just kind of want to piggyback on that, you know, the predatory, uh, hybrid publishers and the vanity model publishers. Some of them are actually really good, but they only provide the publishing part of it, or publishing, editing, distribution, make your book look like it belongs on the shelves, but then they drop you because guess what, marketing is, is on you. So if you're going in that direction, then make sure that it's just kind of all-encompassing. You have somebody, you have a partner, basically. Um, but yeah, let's, let's talk a little bit about, you know, what— how to look out for a good publishing partner. And we'll just call them publishing partners because they could be indie, they could be a small press. Um, how would you start out? Like, say you have a small business you're ready to take your coaching to the next level, and you've got a workbook in you. Everybody says like, hey, can I get the workbook to this course? And you don't have one. What do you, what do you do?

Well, I'm gonna be an academic nerd here for a minute and say that you need to start with some really good research. Um, I, if it were me and I were in that position, I wouldn't just Google publishers or just Google small presses. I would start with vetted associations that have really solid membership where you know that, okay, these people are within the industry. There's a governing body, or at least, you know, an association that's— that kind of vets them before they allow them to be members. IBPA is a really good example of that, Independent Book Publishers Association, which, um, you know, we, we know a lot of good folks who are involved with that. They have wonderful programming. They very strong membership of solid independent presses who offer all kinds of things, who offer a small press experience but also can offer a book packaging experience or help you publish your own imprint. You know, there's a really strong group of folks there. PubWest is another really great place to start to look for small presses. They have some larger ones and they have some other types of members like distributors or printers or what have you, but again, a really nice governing body of small independent publishers. So I would start there. Do your homework. If you see books that you like that are similar to yours or that speak to you, see who publishes those books. If it's not a big publisher, smaller press, then, you know, do a little more legwork there. For small presses, there are several associations as well, and we'll put all this in the show notes for everybody. But that, that would be my starting point.

I would say if you are a business owner or an entrepreneur who is looking to see— and this is coming from a marketing perspective— I would look to see how many people have actually taken your course, what that price point looks like. Is there enough material to go ahead and create this? Because if you think about it, it's a— a book tends to be about 40,000 to 65,000 words. I'd say. So I would say, do you have enough material to do this? Is there enough of a demand to do this? So I would, in addition to doing your homework in terms of publishing houses or the route that you may want to take your publishing journey on, is also making sure that what you have is a viable product. Right. And I think— Exactly. And we have a checklist for that. Is it a book?

We do.

We do. You know, one of the things that a lot of publishers look at, and this is my big thing, is that even if you're going to be an independently published author, self-publish, create your own imprint, you need to look at this as a publisher. Does your product have a market? Do you have an immediate audience? Are you already selling to your audience? Are you in partnerships with other larger corporations? Not corporations, but other, other Are you part of a Vistage group, right? Are you part of it? Yeah, exactly. Do you do events? Are you part of like a, you know, the Chamber of Commerce within your city? So you're already doing the things that a traditional publisher would want you to do. You already have a platform. So, you know, if you have all these pieces and you know you can sell X number of copies, you just have to figure out the math. The math is the important part in order to make sure that you have a successful and viable product. And then once you figure out the math and you think like, okay, yeah, I can do this, then you need a team to help you kind of like maneuver through that, figure out your publishing strategy, right? And I think that's key, figuring out what a book publisher wants you to do. And if you're halfway there as an author, you have your platform. Then why do you need a publisher who's going to take 80% of your royalties? Throwing no shade at publishers.

It's, it's true though. It's a math question, right? Like, what do I want out of this? What do I want it to be? How do I want to sell my book? Do I want to control that process, or do I want to have somebody else control it for me?

Right. And it's not just about like the process, um, about— it's not just the editorial process, it's not just the development of the process, it's also It's, it's an over— I mean, whoever you decide to work with, keep in mind that it's going to be a year, 2 years, at least 9 months of you and this other person or this other team talking on a weekly basis, you know, getting feedback and doing that. So I would definitely have those conversations. I know, I know we've had a lot of consulting conversations with people who have a great platform. It's starting out and then you start telling them, okay, this is, this is the path, this is your publishing strategy, this is the project management, the author branding, the content marketing. And then it starts getting a little overwhelming.

Yeah.

But I feel like it's, it's probably if somebody is having that conversation with you and you're feeling overwhelmed, but they're saying that's okay because you have us every step of the way, then that's probably a good a good partnership there, right?

Exactly. And to me, it's, it's really hard for authors to know the answers to all of the "what do you need" style questions, right? Like, do you, do you just want someone to package the book? Do you want that marketing support? Do you want a PR connection? What do you want? I think a lot of authors may not know the answer to that. And so really thinking strongly about those broader business goals for you and your personal brand is a really, really good place to start. I mean, you know, do you, do you just want to be able to have books in the back of house for events? Hopefully you want to go a little further than that, right?

Yeah.

Or do you have really big ideas of how you want to reach out to, to traditional retailers? Do you want to see your book in Barnes Noble? Do you want to see it at Bookshop, you know, or your favorite independent bookseller? I think those are important questions to ask, and Of course, we all want to be successful. We all want all the things, right? But it's not— the traditional path is not always the right path for every author, and I think that's okay. Um, and again, that's, that's why right now is such an awesome time in publishing, because you have all of these options. You have, you have every path open to you, which is a little overwhelming, but in a good way.

Yeah, it's overwhelming, but in a good way. But I would definitely be cautious if I'm an author and I'm talking to a book publisher, regardless of the path that they decide to take you on. And it just makes it seem so flowery and it's like, we're just going to— and I know there are some places that do this and I know some places that do this well, but if they just say, you know what, just sit down, tell us what your story is and we'll take care of it. And you feel like really good about it. You're not nervous about it. One of my rule of thumbs is if I'm not nervous about it, that means I'm not excited about it. It means I'm probably not going to do the work for it. So that, I think that that's another thing to consider. Is it too easy? Are they just buttoning things up? What else are they hiding? Unfortunately, publishing is like that.

Right. Which, which kind of brings up the question of what's the difference then? We've talked a little bit about independent publishing, how you can kind of be the master of your own situation there. But then there's— there are small presses which differ greatly from this model even. So should we dig into that? Yes.

And I think a small press is also— it also varies, right? I think a small press could be, you know, a really an indie publisher that is, you know, willing to pay you an amount of money for your book, to publish your book. And then what they do is they'll go ahead and they'll pay you in advance, or maybe they won't pay you in advance. I know a lot of— and I know a lot of publishers that will do that. And the ability for them to not pay you in advance might mean that you're getting royalties from day one, and the royalties are higher, and it's more of a partnership. And those types of, um, small presses, small press publishing, are still able to deliver that distribution, that, you know, deliver your book to launch to market. They have all of the skill sets to be able to do the SEO, the marketing, the metadata, data, all of the business side of things that you don't see, that Amazon and other, you know, independent publishing tools help you kind of do. But that's just really the tip of the iceberg when you think about it. And it could be an independent publisher, could be a small press publisher, could be, um, you know, something that is local, hyperlocal, dedicated to a topic in your area, dedicated to small business owners, dedicated to children's books. There's a home for every book out there. And I think that the big four or the big five have been looking at this, and they've been kind of gobbling up a lot of small presses.

They have, yeah, because they know small presses and indie presses are mighty forces in the market, and people are ready to democratize that publishing experience. And, and I agree, you know, you get you get really great one-on-one, hands-on outreach from small presses. Not to say it's not possible with a big, you know, with a big behemoth of a house, but I think that, you know, they're, they're even more invested in your success, um, as a part of their success as well. So I, I will sing the praises of small presses all day. You know, I always famously say whenever people ask me what my publishing journey is, I started at a very small press that only did books about Indiana. I mean, you can't get much more small press than that. It was very niche. But, you know, that experience really showed me the, the passion that small press people have for their books and have for their authors. And so, you know, I can't say enough good things about small presses. I love them. I love you, small presses.

I love you too. And in fact, I think when we worked together a few years ago at a midlist small publisher, I'd like to think that we were small because I like to see that vision and just kind of like the, the core audience was always entrepreneurs. The core audience was always that person that figured it— figured out something, wanted to share that solution with people. And it's just, it always seemed really homegrown. So I really enjoyed bringing that kind of partnership with our authors when we were working together. And I like to think that that was the differentiating factor between us and any other book publisher out there. You know, it's just, it's the people that make things really, really happen that I think is what you need to pay attention to.

Yes, I agree. There is, there's passion in the scrappiness, and sometimes that pays really, really good dividends.

Yes. And always, you know, be mindful of, of publishers that are willing to pay you in advance but then explain to you how that works out. Because I think that a lot of people get really, um, get really stuck in the weeds of what an advance is, but then don't understand that it's, it's just part of the program. And if you find somebody who explains, here's the advance, here is how it's going to work out after your book is published, and this is the math— I appreciate anybody who shares the math with me.

Agreed. Yeah, I think small presses are, are very invested in making sure that you understand how the business model works, because they want you to be that partner to go out and market your book. And if you don't go market the book, you're not going to get the royalties because you're not going to get the sales.

Yes, and don't be mad when that small press or that small press editor comes to you and says you need to market the book, because guess what? They're invested and you're invested, and they're going to give you all the tools that they have at their disposal. But if you're not pulling your weight, then, you know, that's just another thing to consider. How much work are you willing to do after the book is published? And finding a publisher or an indie press style or even just yourself, like how much work are you willing to do?

Exactly. Paul has a question.

Yes.

I hope you'll do at least another part 2 on this because it seems like there's 3 aspects to choosing which path to take. One is, are you looking to get paid up front? You know, the traditional model, I want to, I'm going to write a book, Somebody is going to buy it from me. I'm going to get an advance to write it or an advance to publish it, and then I'll get some royalties. That's everybody's dream. But even in that world, you still got to go out and market and push it. The assumption was I could sit on a mountaintop, write my book, and then they would do the rest and the checks would just flow in. Doesn't work that way. I don't think.

No.

All right. So that's one of the money. The other is— and the other is the marketing. And, and the editing. I hope you'll do a follow-up. I just didn't have time today to talk about this, but so many people come and they say, here, it's done. And then they go to a self-publisher and this is good. I'll put a fancy cover on it, put a name and we'll send it out. And it's not even a book. It's just a, it's just a first chapter. I did this, I did this, I did this, I did this, uh, buy my book. Well, what's the book about? In the old days, in the long distant past, if you got picked up by a publisher, part of what they did was turn it into a book. That's what you guys do.

Very astute, Paul. That is actually what we do. We love joining people, joining authors wherever they are on their journey. A lot of people will come to us with an idea and then we'll have to burst the bubble that says that's not really an idea. But, you know, we don't leave you out in the wind. We, we definitely give you the tools, we give you suggestions, because we want you to come back later on with your manuscript. We want you to go through that, you know. Um, one of the really cool things that we've developed is, you know, the— we have workbooks, we have checklists, and then Jen has created a, you know, Write Your Proposal course, which you can definitely check out. So as an independent press, We give you the tools with Broad Book Group. But we did something really, really fun that we're kind of really nervous. And remember I said, if it doesn't make me nervous, I'm not excited about it and I don't want to do it. But we did something really fun and kind of jumped into publishing. Jen, do you want to tell everybody about it?

Oh my goodness.

And then we got to wrap up because otherwise we're going to break it into part 2 and Jen's got to go.

I know. Here's the big reveal coming to you in 2023 is Broad Book Press. This will be our, our small press, which is something we are so excited about. We will continue to offer our publishing services. We'll continue to offer independent publishing assistance for anyone who wants to do it and custom publishing. The press is something a little bit separate. The press is our foray into the small press world, and we are going to kick it off with a freshman class of amazing titles. We've got 2 authors signed now. And a couple more getting ready to be onboarded. Uh, we're really thrilled. We're going to be featuring just the best-in-class nonfiction from people who are experts in their field in the areas of thought leadership, of marketing, uh, of business, self-help, personal growth, all those areas that are really near and dear to our hearts. And we're going to have a special focus on women and voices of color. So we're just so excited to, to launch it and, uh, come along for the ride. Follow us at @ProdBookGroup and find out about more.

More to come. All right. Well, I hope there's more of this conversation because I only got a gist of it. There are different paths. I'm still not sure what they do at each path. The promise of the do-it-all indie publisher or the self-publisher is you hand me the manuscript and out pops a book. But that usually just means they don't edit it. They might copy edit it or whatever you call it. They might clean up the—

They may just lay it out into a PDF. You never know.

You never know.

But so often these people have an idea and they need somebody to develop it into a story.

That's a different thing. Well, if anybody out there is interested or wants to even just tinker around, kick some tires, we have a services page on broadbookgroup.com. Check it out. You can listen to more of our podcasts. You can watch us on YouTube, which is something that we always thought was really nerve-wracking. But you know what? Watch us. Watch us stumble along with, with you.

Exactly. All right. Thanks for joining us. Take us out, Jen.

All right.

We want to thank our producer, Paul Roberts, and our executive producer, Emily Carpenter-Polskamp of Little Red Communications. We'll see you next time. We hope that you gained some valuable insights into the world of book publishing. Head over to broadbookgroup.com to learn more about us and all our services.

And be sure to check out all our social media @BroadBookGroup.

Until then, keep publishing.