Ep. 8: Go From Book Author to Booked Speaker

Welcome to the Pub Date Podcast, the show where two book broads discuss what should happen before, during, and after your book publication date. Brought to you by Broad Book Group with your host Vanessa Campos and Jen Dorsey.

Hello everyone!

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Pub Date Podcast. Today, my favorite Book Broads, Jen Dorsey and Danielle Brown, are joining me. Hello, hello, hello, hello.

Thank you for having me back.

It's always a pleasure to get the gang back, you know, always.

I love getting the band back together, baby. Love it.

So a quick intro to Danielle for those who don't know her, who didn't hear the last episode with her. She is a speaker and leader with Toastmasters and has a brain for marketing and Passion for Creating Powerful Stories. And, you know, I wanted to have you on again, Danielle, because A, you're wonderful, but B, too, you know, we are getting into the second half of the year, and hopefully now we're turning the corner in the pandemic, and events are coming back. For publishers and authors in nonfiction, it's really great news because people are gathering, speaking engagements are getting booked, Bulk orders are being placed. And that for, you know, if you're not in the know, that tends to be your bread and butter as an author and as a publisher in this specific genre. But, you know, one of the big things that I'm thinking about is if you're an author, you just released a book, but you have no speaking experience to speak of.

What else?

Or are a speaker with no book. So, I wanted to actually ask both of you guys a few questions from somebody with experience in Toastmasters, and you're both really well versed in turning content into speaking engagements and things like that. So first question is for Danielle. Say you're working with an author who just released a book but has no speaking material. What is your advice to them on how to start? Would you have them mine their book for content?

I feel like yes, but there's a caveat, of course, because I think when someone thinks about mining their book for speaking material, they think, oh, if I just take this section out and essentially read it to an audience, then I'm covered. Like, I did all the work putting that content in the book, crafting it a very specific way, organizing it fine-tuning all of the wording and that should be ready to go if I just read it aloud or memorize that section. And I think for some people, the rare person who writes like they speak, sure, that could work. But more often than not, it's better if you take those concepts and then craft a speech a little bit differently. And the reason is because you craft a book, and I know you guys know this, for the full arc of the learning process in that book. And if you just give a speech that's either 5 to 7 minutes or a whole 45 minutes for a keynote or a workshop or something, you can't put the 60,000-word book arc in that presentation. And so you need to create a new arc with a very specific piece of content. So So yes, mind the book, but still treat it like it's its own unique piece of content and craft it with that in mind. And keep in mind that some of the things that translate really well in written form and that are educational are not going to translate as well in a speaking environment, in a presentation environment. You wanna focus more on the way you can illustrate your points, even the wording you use that can make it more image-heavy and visual is way better in a presentation, whereas in a book you might rely more heavily on statistics and numbers because those can stand out on the page and those can be more impactful. So just be careful about how you leverage the content, but on a basic level, yes.

So that's interesting that you say that. So Let's say that, you know, as an author, I'm getting a lot of feedback that, you know, this chapter in my book is really resonating with readers, but it's got a lot of charts, it's got a lot of statistics. For that reason is why, you know, it's getting a lot of attention. I really, really, really think that it's the right piece of material to turn into a webinar or something visual. So how can I turn some of those graphs into something that is a little bit more dynamic on stage?

There are a couple of things. So obviously it really depends on your environment for that presentation. If it is an online webinar, you can use images all you want in your virtual background and in the presentation itself, and you can throw those charts up there and maybe it will have the same impact that it does in your book. What I would warn you though, or caution you of, is just doing too much because again, when it's a book, someone's reading it at their own pace. They're digesting all those numbers and material at their own level, and they can pause at any moment. But if you're giving a presentation, they are along for the ride with you, and you set the pace for how they digest information. So be careful about overloading them with too much at once. Make sure you have breaks to explain any of your illustrations or statistics. And rely on easily digestible structures like the rule of 3, right? Talk about things in rules of 3, in groups of 3, and that will make it easier to process and follow along rather than just frontloading them with 10 statistics all at once. Unless you do that one time and never again, and it's just for the impact. So it really depends on what you're using that for. Is it for shock value? In which case overloading at once can do the same thing. Or is it Is it the actual information that you want them to glean? Do you want them to remember a statistic by the end, in which case you want to repeat it 3 times? Think about why it's making an impact to your readers and try to deliver the same results, but maybe just fine-tune the way you deliver it a little better.

That is interesting, the rule of 3s. I thought it was going to be something like, you know, there's 3 sections to what I'm talking about, but you're literally saying repeat something 3 times.

I mean, yeah, if you want someone to remember it, then you definitely need to repeat it more than once. And I would say at least 3 times. The most common, you know, installment of this is you say it in the beginning, you say it in the middle, and you say it at the end. And especially with either a quote, a theme, or a statistic, or even a question that you want someone to continue to ask themselves afterward, You really want to position it 3 times, but maybe in 3 slightly different ways. Because again, we're talking about this presentation like an arc. It's a story in and of itself. Your audience is along for this narrative. So what kind of arc are we going through? Even though we're hearing the same thing 3 times, in the beginning, is it surprising? And then in the middle you twist it a new way, and then the third time it gives them a whole new perspective that now they take with them. What about that little piece of information can you take along that journey, even if you repeat it so they remember it?

That's an— that's very interesting. And as you're talking about the arc and how to introduce something at the beginning, again in the middle, and then wrapping it up at the end, it really reminds me of how Jen talks to our authors and really kind of gets them to structure a chapter. So let's flip this conversation on its head. Jen, now that we have, let's say we have a thought leader who has spoken at several conferences, TED Talks. This person has founded some type of, you know, new business and this person's the rage. Everyone wants to hear this person talk. Never written a book. Can't they just take all of their speaking material, assuming that they've done what Danielle has said here with the arc, the repetition, some of that dynamic information in terms of statistics? Can't they just take all of that material from speaking engagements, workshops, et cetera, and turn it into a book?

Oh, I'm going to be a caveat person too and say yes, but. So unlike improv where we say yes and, we're gonna say yes but here. So from Danielle's perspective, from the speaking side of things, I thought she made a really, really good point in that, you know, the book material doesn't always translate well when you're speaking to an audience. And a really great example of this is academic conferences. So if you've ever been to an academic conference where people are presenting research, very heavily researched things and papers, they tend to just read the paper and it's a real snooze fest. So you don't want to do that, right? So it's kind of the same thing when you flip it over and you're turning speech content into a book because you are speaking more extemporaneously in front of an audience. When you're doing that rule of 3, when you're trying to make it very personable and conversational and engaging, sometimes that doesn't translate then to the written page. So we still, we still want to do that. We want to achieve that conversationality and we want to achieve that level of imparting lessons and wisdom and research and good repetition, but we just do it a little bit differently. So when I have someone who comes to me and says, I've got all these speeches, or here's my whole video library, let's make it a book. I always say, great, step 1, let's get them all transcribed if they're not. And then step 2, let's figure out how we can go deeper into this topic, which is hopefully a niche enough topic that it sets the book apart from other books in its ecosystem that are similar. So yes, we would take those speeches, but then we drill down even more. So those statistics that Danielle suggested maybe downplaying, or not downplaying, but, you know, reframing in a different way in person, I would want them to go deep with those in the book. Really fleshing out the content. Because you want to take something that's spoken and extemporaneous and make it into a 60,000 to 75,000-word book, you're going to have to really, I would say, go more into argument mode. And so to do that, you're going to do all of those things that you might have learned in freshman composition class, which I bring up constantly with authors, which is figure out what your big ideas are. What are your big claims? Where's your evidence? How are you going to support these ideas? And then flesh that out into what looks like an actual book, into an actual table of contents. So it is a little bit of a dance, but I think that you can do it. You just need to come into it with expectations that it is not a direct relate.

Okay, so now I have a question for both of you. So we talked to Danielle about taking book content and turning it into a speech, and Jen gave us a little bit of an insight into how a speech and workshops and webinars can't necessarily go into a book as is. So now I'm wondering, who listens to nonfiction audiobooks if they are a bit more on the dry side? Now, sometimes I can't read a nonfiction book. I have to listen to it while I'm kind of doing other things. And every once in a while, they'll say something I'm just curious, what are your thoughts on audiobooks for business books? Do they actually grab your attention? What's your experience with them? And should every nonfiction business book have an audiobook?

I don't know. Danielle, do you want to go first or do you want me to go?

I can go first. I am definitely an audiobook listener, so I appreciate this question Thank you so much. And I think this is a great question because I am someone who, anything I write, I am always thinking about how is it going to sound in someone's head if they're hearing it? How is it going to sound if a narrator is narrating it? How is it going to sound if I'm talking about it to someone else? I'm a very visual and auditory person. That's always a question in my mind. But there are definitely writers who don't think that way and are maybe more academic and are very just thoughtful about the written form, that very specific medium. And I think what's really crucial is with audiobooks, finding the right narrator who's going to meet the ideal listener where they're at. Because you have to think, just some random, you know, John Doe on the street might not pick up the most academic, dry piece of nonfiction, whether it's print or audio, right?

Right.

Yeah, that's definitely geared towards a specific audience. So finding the narrator who can deliver the content in the way the listener is expecting. Meanwhile, you have some of the more engaging how-to business books or even memoirs from business leaders and things like that, where really a listener might just be delighted to hear it out of that person's mouth and hearing the words come from their own voice. And that's all they're expecting, even if it is a little bit drier or not quite the same as a speech. So I think it's really about the narrator choice and whether that person can deliver it the way the listener needs to hear it in order to digest the information.

I agree with that. And I think the goals of the audience play a role here too. So when I go to an event, I want to get fired up. I want someone to inspire me and I want to say, go get 'em, you know, when we're ready to walk out the door and I'm going to go out and do the thing that they just talked about. And I want that. So I want less, I want less content, but more go get 'em. I want more inspiration. And then when I'm listening to an audiobook, especially when it's in that more leadership management business space, I feel like that's almost like a private session between me and that author. So I don't mind that it's not, yay, rah, rah, go get 'em. I want it to be like a conversation, like the, you know, the three of us are having right here where it's a little bit more like they're leading me, they're teaching me, I'm learning something from them. We're going again, going deeper. And then I feel like with the book, that's when I'm really dedicated to that topic and I'm taking notes. Notes that I may be highlighting in the book, as long as it's not a library book. So, you know, I think the goals of the, of the reader, listener, audience member have to be kind of set and differentiated in those ways. And the golden goose is if you get someone who wants all three. If you get someone who's paid to come watch you speak, they've bought your audiobook and they like it so much they've also purchased the print book. I mean, that's the, that's the biggie right there. And not everybody does that.. I think if you kind of keep those different goals of the audience and the reader/listener in mind, it kind of helps you guide how you craft those individual products.

That's such a great point. And I feel like it feeds right into the idea that a speech is what leads to the book, right? That's why these things go so well hand in hand, because the speech is the getting you fired up about the content. It's also proving that this person is someone worth listening to, that they have something you're resonating with. And that should inspire a reader or a listener or whoever to then go dive deeper. The book is always a deeper dive. And it's so important to recognize these as uniquely different experiences. That speech or presentation, there's no just getting up because you need to pause. There's no pausing and rewinding because you didn't catch a thing that they said unless it's prerecorded. You are there for that session until it's over. But an audiobook or a print book, you can put down and pause anytime. It's at your own pace. You can take your time to digest information, or you can binge it like a Netflix show. It doesn't really matter, but it's up to the reader's choice, not anyone else's.

That's right. And I feel like language matters too. So For example, I'm working on a book, or I've worked on a couple of books where they use the royal we approach. We're gonna do this and we're gonna do that. That does not work on the page. It works great in a room of 500 people because we're we, we're here, we're all together. But when I read it in a book, I'm like, oh, I don't like that. I want you to talk to just me, not the we. And so I think too, when you're determining how you're gonna push out your content, keep in mind your intonations, keep in mind your language, and what's going to work best for that particular reading/listening situation.

So that brings me to my next question, and this is something that when we were all working together, we were acquiring books that may have had authors who were really dynamic on stage.

They—

so dynamic that they wrote like they, um, they, they write like they speak. So we're talking all caps, all of those things. So that's when Jen gets in here and makes, you know, the magic happen so it looks like a book. But then you get back to this whole idea of the audiobook. Everyone wants to see when the audiobook comes out. Um, if we have an author, and I'm— we've all been there before where we've had to coach somebody, and you know, the best approach for each format, if we have an author who is a dynamic speaker, an okay writer, but the book did well, so it's sell— it, you know, you're— you've got an audiobook deal and it's ready to go. Should you, as a dynamic speaking author, be the person to record the audiobook? And I asked that because I've seen a lot of audiobooks out there with narrators who aren't the author, and there's a few reviews that say, I wish I had, you know, heard the author's voice. The author is so great, but it just doesn't come across, you know, that well in an audiobook. What are your thoughts when you have somebody who is just like dead set, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do the audiobook? How, what, what do you say to them, Danielle?

What do I say to them? Well, again, I think that there is a difference between a narrator and a speaker, and these are two very different skill sets. Because you can have all the faux pas in the world in your presentation and be breaking all the quote-unquote rules as you are getting people fired up. Because that is your goal. And in a lot of ways, ends can justify the means when it comes to presentations, right? As long as you're getting to the end goal and those tactics are effective, you're delivering a great presentation. But there are a lot of other nuances and skill sets you need to be an effective narrator. There are things like, you know, mouth clicks and sounds and breaths and all that weirdness that gets picked up so well from a microphone and an audio recording that no one would ever notice if you were speaking in front of an audience. Even if you were mic'd, they probably wouldn't notice. There are things like filler words like, um, uh, and random filler words that the person uses as a crutch that isn't in the written text. But if they just work it in there while they're recording, recording, that's going to be a problem because as a listener for an 8-hour or more audiobook, hearing um every few sentences is going to drive them crazy. But for 10 minutes, everyone can just let that float right over their heads. And those are just a few examples. There are a ton of other nuances, but I think it's just important to recognize that these are different skill sets. So an author has to be capable of both in order to really be viable for the audiobook narration. Just because they're a dynamic speaker doesn't mean they're the best person to listen to the audiobook from.

True.

That's right. And I think most audiobook producers will— they ask the authors to audition to read their own book. And for— and some people get offended by that, but it's for very good reason. It's for what Danielle just said. So if you don't have an appropriate recording space If you're sitting, you know, just like in your closet, as I'm sitting in my book closet I say this, so take that with a grain of salt, but you need to have an adequate space that's got the proper sound qualities to it. So that's part of it. And as Danielle said, if they don't have a great cadence as they read, if it's a lot of umming and ahhing, probably that audiobook production company is going to say, "We're going to select a narrator." that's in line with the tone and the style and the content of this book for you, who will do it professionally. And so I think that's always something to keep in mind. You, even though you're the expert in the field, you may not be the expert narrator. So, you know, if you're, if you're going to be self-recording and putting it out there on Amazon all by your lonesome, that's fine. But if you're going through a more traditional setup, then, you know, the publisher sells the rights to those, uh, they pay for that production. That's all taken care of and it's handled in a very professional way.

Just to kind of piggyback on that, Jen, what is the typical cost of an audiobook? I know it can vary depending, but if you're an indie author and you want to do your own book and you think that you can do the cadence and you don't have the ums or the uhs, and my filler word is so, um, what, what, what can people anticipate in terms of costs?

No, I think if they're going to be doing it themselves and they're really going to build their, their pirate ship and sit in their closet and do it, it, it costs the equipment, it costs you know, the, the recording equipment, and it costs the software to edit it and make it sound like an actual audiobook and record the proper kind of files that are required to push it out onto Amazon or wherever you're going to be pushing it out. Now, if you're going to pay somebody to do it, that's a whole other conversation. And it can be in the— it can be in the low thousands of dollars, it can be in the high thousands of dollars. It all depends on how many recordable hours The book ends up being— so if you have written, um, like David Foster Wallace's Infinite Jest, um, it's gonna be expensive. But if you've written a book that's 200 pages or less, you're probably looking in the low thousands. So it's a little bit more manageable. But again, you know, you're paying— you get what you pay for. So, right, if you're willing to put that kind of financing behind it and you feel like it's going to be something you can market well then it may be something worth considering if you have the budget.

All right, so before we leave, Danielle, what— you've been with Toastmasters for as long as I've known you. Give our listeners 2 tips to kind of help them shake the jitters when they're in front of an audience.

All right, I have 2 tips. One is practice, practice, practice, and I don't mean practice as in memorize the thing and practice it until you sound like a robot. I mean practice just being in front of people, practice what that feels like, figure out what your fidgets are, what your crutch words are, how you feel giving a speech. And the more you do that, the more comfortable you're going to be when it matters. And then number 2 tip is take deep breaths. And this applies both before you get on stage, before you hop onto the podcast, and also during it. Because if you are someone who relies heavily on so, um, or saying and between every sentence you ever say, or any of those things, if you instead replace that with a deep breath, not only is that going to give the audience member more time to process your information, but you're going to sound really cool, and people will think you just worked in a pause like a professional. And you'll get used to doing that more and more so that your speech is much more polished when you deliver it.

I need to start doing that. Just shh, deep breath, make you think, and then remember what I was going to say.

Exactly. Think before you speak. It seems like a silly thing to say, but that is an important tip.

Well, thank you guys so much for joining me today. A big thank you to Paul Roberts of OC Talk Radio, our production editor, and to Emily Carpenter Polskamp, our executive producer. Again, I can't wait to have you guys all together in one place. We'll Airstream it. We'll book it over to Illinois, and maybe we'll take the show on the road. Who knows?

How fun would that be? I cannot wait.

Thanks, everyone.

Thank you. Bye.

Thank you.

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