Ep. 9: The Secrets of Ghostwriting with Kevin Anderson

Welcome to the Pub Date Podcast, the show where two book broads discuss what should happen before, during, and after your book publication date. Brought to you by Broad Book Group with your host Vanessa Campos and Jen Dorsey.

Hello, welcome to the Pub Date podcast. It is a beautiful Friday afternoon. Vanessa Campos, how are you today?

I am doing wonderful. It is Friday and we have a really great guest on today. I'm excited to talk to him about it because there's a lot of things in the news that I've been reading about, and so I'm just going to let you take it on.

All right, I'm so stoked as well. Um, we are very pleased today to welcome Kevin Anderson.. He is the CEO and editor-in-chief of Kevin Anderson and Associates. They do all kinds of publishing things just like we do. They do ghostwriting, they do publishing consulting, just a little bit of everything. Kevin, welcome to the show.

Thank you. Yeah, I'm, uh, I'm super excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Oh my gosh, it's our pleasure. We're just excited to talk to you. We are fascinated by what you do, and I think a lot of people are fascinated by what you do. And I know your company does a lot of things and we can dig into that, but what we want to talk about specifically particularly today is ghostwriting. I think that that's just a— not to play on the pun of ghosts, but it's a very mysterious topic to a lot of people because, um, well, it just is. We don't know what exactly it is that you do and who you do it for. So we want to dig into all of that today. So let's kick it off first by just talking about you for a little bit. How did you get into this line of work?

Yeah, sure. So I was not, um, I did not think I was destined to be in this business at all, uh, even in publishing industry. I was on an academic track. I was doing my graduate studies at Harvard in postmodern literary and criticism, literary theory and criticism. And I thought I was going to be a professor, like a philosophy or English professor. And, you know, I started a little tutoring business while I was in grad school, and it took off. And originally, we were just kind of focused on on editing and more on the scholarly side and formatting. And then, you know, I hired all these— I hired all my fellow students, a bunch of, you know, Harvard PhDs, and we marketed ourselves as such. And yeah, a publisher took notice and said they wanted us to— they wanted our help with editing. They were having problems with quality controls. They thought hiring some, you know, Harvard PhDs, English PhDs, was a good way to— to up their game on the copy editing side of things. So, yeah, so we started doing editing. It wasn't long before they had a manuscript that needed a lot more than editing. And so, yeah, so we ended up kind of developing it and basically finishing the manuscript for them. And that's kind of how we kind of got into the ghostwriting. And so it wasn't long after that that I split the companies up. Had the academic company just focus on tutoring and academic editing, and then I went with the much more fun company, which was going to focus just on, on books and ghostwriting.

I love that. I love that you are a fellow recovering academic like I am. I also did that. I thought, hey, being a professor sounds cool and kind of romantic, and I'm gonna just go like put on my little elbow patches and go be a professor. And then I realized, um, no, probably I should stay in publishing. So I'm, I'm excited to hear that you also had that realization. I don't feel so alone now, so thank you for that.

Yeah, no problem. Yeah, it wasn't that hard of a decision. It was either 7 more years of school, or maybe 5, and then, you know, and then hack it out in some, you know, small town in Middle America for, you know, another 5, 7 years to get tenure, or go with the, you know, the hot horse. So it wasn't too hard of a decision in the end. But, um, yeah, I'm definitely glad that I chose publishing.

Likewise, me too. Well, I'm glad we're both here. Um, tell me a little bit about what you do now. I mean, that's how— that was sort of your origin story. And, um, and for those who are, who are, um, not— who are listening at home, just FYI, we can't see Kevin right now because he's a ghost. He's like the voice of God picture here. Um, tell us a little bit about what exactly it is a ghostwriter does, because I think a lot of people have misconceptions about that. Some people think that they do, you know, all the research and everything, and maybe that's part of it, you know. Is there a fine line between like completely taking on a project or and working with your subject matter expert or your front-facing author? What does that look like? Is it— is there only one way to do it or are there lots of different ways?

Oh yeah, I mean, there's lots of different ways, and you know, we work with people at all stages, so some people come with almost nothing and almost no content. They just know that they, you know, they know for whatever reason they want to write a book, and they feel like they've got something to say, but they're really kind of lost in how to bring it all together and bring it to fruition. Others come with a manuscript, you know, they've got an entire book essentially already written, but it's, you know, it's not written well enough to get published, so we essentially have to go in and rewrite it. And in many ways, both of those activities are or ghostwriting, the word ghostwriting, I mean, really relates to whether that person's getting credit or not, I suppose. And, you know, we still kind of use ghostwriting to just refer to any time where we're really developing original content. But oftentimes, you know, oftentimes we're doing this with some credit or editorial credit or some kind of acknowledgement. And a lot of times the relationship is really, you know, public and on the surface even. So not always, you know, a lot of times it's also completely anonymous and confidential, whatever the client is comfortable with. But yeah, but to answer your question, ghostwriting or rewriting, I mean, it can be a wide range and it's really whatever the book and author needs, you know, to get from where they are currently with their book to something that's, you know, actually worthy of publication.

That's very interesting to hear because I think we've worked with maybe 2 or 3 book author projects, Jen and myself, where we knew the ghostwriter and he, Part of his agreement was that he had to have credit. And I love that about it because it's like, well, if you're going to do something good, you know, you might as well get credit for it. Are there ever any instances in which— and this may be like, you know, personality-wise— that the ghostwriter just doesn't get the credit at all? Or I just feel like that may be like an ego-driven thing. But how often is that a conversation? Or does an author have to come into this process already knowing that you know, this is just kind of like a known thing that they're gonna have to share credit or maybe like not even mention it. I personally feel icky about that, but I would always want to give credit to the people who are helping me.

Yeah, you know, so we try to negotiate to get credit for our authors in every— our writers, I should say— in every agreement that we have with a client. Um, you know, when we work with a client, we usually have, you know, it's usually a pretty big production. We usually have a writer, an editor. All of our editors are former acquisitions editors from the Big Five houses. We usually have secondary editors who do beta testing. We do sensitive or cultural accuracy reading, or sensitivity reading as it's often called. We do a whole production, and often we ask of the author that they at least credit, you know, the team for the help, but especially the lead writer because it is such an involved, um, process. Now, what that credit means, you know, obviously, well, to be honest, sometimes the writer doesn't want to be, you know, on the COVID of the book for whatever reason. We do try to get cover credit when we can. And then if the client's not comfortable with COVID credit, then maybe just some kind of acknowledgement. You don't have to say it was ghostwriting. You could just say, you know, thanks to, you know, Jill Blow for helping me with thinking through this concept and and editing my work or something. You know, just some kind of credit where at least that writer can kind of put it on their resume. They may not be able to say that they ghostwrote that book or wrote it, but at least, you know, someone that's kind of looking at their list can see that they've worked with some notable titles. Because, yeah, it's really tough for a writer. I mean, as you can imagine, it's not really— it doesn't really bring a lot of confidence when, your prospective client is looking for some sort of references or some sort of list, right? And your answer is, oh well, everything was confidential, so I can't show you anything. I mean, you know, you don't get very far, um, with that.

Absolutely. Let's talk a little bit about how do you assess if you need a ghostwriter. And, you know, I, I've also done some of that kind of work where I've, I've helped someone maybe just with a portion of their book or just a section that's not working you know, as opposed to the entire thing. When writers sit down and think to themselves, okay, I've gotten this far, I can't take it any further, or they just don't even want to attempt, like, how do they discern that? And I guess I'm asking you to kind of put yourself into the writer's or the author's shoes for a minute and think about that. Like, who needs a ghostwriter, and how do you know if you do?

Yeah, I think one, I guess, litmus test for that is, are you making the progress that you need to toward, you know, 3 years and you've got a page written, then, you know, it might be time to hire a ghostwriter. Um, and in general, or maybe it's just the quality is just not coming together, the quality of the writing. I mean, because you have so many people, and I know you both know this, they have great ideas, great concepts, but just, you know, writing is not their skill set. Um, and, you know, they need that help to just get what's in their head onto the page in a way that is really going to connect with readers. So, you know, the reasons why, obviously, they may not be a great writer. They got great things to say, but maybe they're just great on stage speaking, but not necessarily in writing. So that could be one reason. Another one, which we get maybe the most common, is just time. You know, a busy CEO or entrepreneur just doesn't have time to dedicate to writing, especially when it's not even their core skill set. I mean, most businesses, business owners don't do their own taxes or do their own payroll either. Um, partly because it takes a lot of time, but also, you know, it's not, you know, they're going to make mistakes and they're not going to do it as efficiently or as effectively as if they hire a professional. So the time factor, we get that a lot. And then also just, you know, if you're gonna, you're gonna make fewer mistakes in the whole process if you're working alongside a professional. And, you know, we get this a lot too, where Author wants to kind of write their own book or at least be a pretty close part of it, but they really just need that accountability partner to really push them forward and to review their material, make sure that, you know, that everything's looking good and that they're going in the right direction. You know, we get a lot of authors that have written an entire book and we could have just had even a couple hours with them in the beginning. We could have saved them from writing this train wreck of a book that has no place, you know, in publishing and just set them in a different direction. So just, you know, you don't know what you don't know. So it's really good to have, you know, a professional.

That's a really good point. A lot of the times when we see in, you know, nonfiction business books, they say, you know, don't write the entire book if you're going to pitch it to a publisher, you know, write the outline, give us a sample chapter or two because there's a lot of, a lot of times you're right, Kevin. You're really great on stage, you're really good in front of the camera, but you may not be as prolific as a writer as you may think. Um, and blog writing is just not the same as book writing. So I'm curious to hear, what do you recommend? And just talking to our, um, business book, nonfiction, self-help, prescriptive, uh, authors, what stage of the process would you recommend that they kind of start considering it? I know that you've had that timeline, you're not making as much progress, but what is the ideal situation for somebody coming to you?

You know, honestly, there's no time that's too early. I mean, if you're thinking about writing a book or you think it might be something that's good for you or your business, most companies like ours, it's not— there's no cost to just call and have a discussion and get a consultation, and we can put all the pieces together. Okay, what What's your timeline? What publisher, what kind of publishing is going to work for you? What kind of publisher is going to work for you? You know, traditional publisher is going to take a couple of years, whereas, you know, some hybrid publishers, we might be able to get this out in 6 months. So, you know, there's, we can kind of map out the whole thing. How much time are you going to need? What's the writing dynamic that's going to be best for you? And, you know, you can kind of start to put all the pieces together and they can plan that way how to put this book together. And also, It's just good too to just really set the expectations. You know, a lot of people think they have a book or a platform that's going to be just perfect for HarperCollins or Penguin Random House, you know, a big 5 publisher. And, you know, all it would take is one conversation with somebody who knows the industry to shatter that dream, so to speak, that, hey, you know, that's not really going to be reasonable for you. And you don't want to spend a whole bunch of resources chasing something that's, you know, not going to, you know, that has no chance. So, but the good news is there's a lot of publishers that will probably be happy to publish that book. But as you both know, you know, unless you have a really big following or platform, it's unlikely that you're going to be with a Big Five publisher. So, you know, just having that conversation early can help just set the expectations, figure out a strategy and a plan. And, you know, maybe you don't actually hire someone for another year, but at least now you know. You know, what to expect and how to schedule your plan accordingly.

It's the come-to-Jesus moment, right? It's the conversation that everyone should have when it's like, I have a great book idea. And then unfortunately, as, you know, people in book publishing, we have to crush that just a little.

Yeah, it just depends. It just depends what you want from your book.

Right.

You know, I mean, if you want it to just be read by friends and family that want to get to know you a little bit better, well, you know, that's one thing. But if you really want it to be a game changer in the industry and set yourself as the thought leader, you know, you're going to have to have something that's original and that's really showing, put together in a way that really inspires people. And so there's just different, you know, and then other people, you know, and they'll be very honest with this, you know, they're really not looking to write, you know, the next Seth Godin's book. They just want to have a book that's on their table when clients come into their, you know, their place of, you know, their office. And it just, you know, it's a great business card. They see that book. On the table, and it shows that they, you know, they're at least a thought leader and they're dedicated to the subject, and so much so that they wrote a book on the topic. And there's definitely value in that. And you don't have to go to a traditional publisher or have, you know, the, you know, an original best-selling type of a topic to have a book that'll serve that purpose and serve it well.

Absolutely.

I think that's really important to keep in mind, and I love that you bring that up. It's all about what your priorities are. And we talk about that a lot on this show and in the office together. Just, you know, what do people want to get out of their book project? Do they want to control their IP? Do they want to take it to that next level? And I think every answer is the right answer depending on who you are. There's no wrong answer, you know what I mean?

Yeah, absolutely. And that's why it's also good to have a conversation early because, you know, if you just want a book that's going to be with friends and family, you probably don't want to spend the same kind of resources as if it's a book, you know, from your company that's going to be the face of your company for, you know, years to come. You know, you might want to think through your investment and, you know, I mean, it's a write-off after all. So maybe you might want to have something that's got a little bit more sustenance to it.

Absolutely. I love that. You told me that you might be willing to share some cool names or maybe a couple stories with us. I know you've worked with so many big-ticket authors and who, who do kind of take that, that next step and take it to the next level. Who are some of the clients you've worked with?

Yeah, I mean, we worked with a lot of clients, a lot of corporate clients, like Domino's Pizza and Target, writing corporate stories. We've done a number of fiction, best-selling fiction and YA fiction, like the Five Nights at Freddy's series. But we mostly focus on prescriptive nonfiction, you know, business, personal development. Well, one author in particular, which was a really interesting project, was a self-made billionaire named Tom Golisano. He was the founder of Paychex, the payroll company. And it was a really interesting project because he had been working with a writer for some time and it was just, you know, it was a friend of the family type of a situation. They've been working together for a long time. It just wasn't— not only was it not coming together, it was also just turning into very much his life story in great detail. And finally, you know, they just realized that they just couldn't keep waiting. They really wanted to make something happen quickly. So they reached out. I think they reached out like in the end of December. And within 2 weeks, There were 4 of us sitting at his place down in Naples, Florida, meeting with him for a whole week. And then our writer stayed there for a couple of months and just shadowed him and wrote the book. And that's an interesting story too, because we had the whole team there and we were talking about— I mean, he has an amazing life story. He literally turned $3,000. He was not raised into a wealthy family at all.. And he turned a $3,000 credit card into this $30 billion market cap business. But everyone was telling him to write a story, to write a book. And he assumed that that meant his life story. So we were there to write— our job that we were hired to do is to write his life story. But as we were looking at all of this, it just became clear to everybody that what he really needed to do first was come out with his, you know, what everyone wanted to know. How did you turn $3,000 into a $30 million company, right? That's the story that everybody really wants to hear. And that's where his authority came from, was, you know, in what he did as a business person. So, you know, we started out writing the memoir. Eventually, we were able to show him that, look, you know, you're gonna have a lot more success if you come out with the business book first, because you've got a target audience that's going to listen to that right away. We know exactly what shelf it's going to go on. We know how to target, you know, the readers here. That company itself works with entrepreneurs, as I'm sure you know. I mean, that's their primary client, right? Are small businesses. That's how they competed with, you know, big corporate competitors like ADP. They went after the smaller businesses. And anyway, so he had this great targeted group of authors that he could read, or readers that he could reach directly. So we switched years. And we went and we hammered out the business book first, and we got that, you know, that was Harper— that was published through HarperCollins. And it was a Wall Street Journal bestseller and USA Today bestseller, did really, really well. You know, a year later, his memoir is coming out as a follow-up, and that's going to be coming out with HarperCollins as well. Um, I think the pub date is, uh, is early spring of 2022. But, but yeah, I mean, that was just one example where he thought what he wanted to do was going to be to write this memoir, but the fact was it would have been really hard to sell that memoir to a traditional publisher. And I'm sure before I said he was the founder of Paychex, you probably didn't know the name Tom Golisano.

Nope.

He's worth $4 billion, but most people don't know who he is. And honestly, I mean, unless you— for the most part, unless you're famous already and have a big following, it's really hard to break out a memoir. Into the traditional space. So yeah, so just having those professionals on board, he was able to kind of see, okay, that makes more sense. Strategically, let's go with the business book first, get an audience, build an audience, get all the publicity. It's a lot easier to get publicity when a billionaire is coming out with a business book. We were on Bloomberg, we were on Fox Friends, we were all over the place. And it was way easier to just build his audience and then that set the stage for for what we hope to be a successful publication of his memoir.

I love that. Two for one. Yes.

Okay.

One big idea.

So I have this hot burning question. Prince Harry is coming out with a memoir. Do you think it's going to be ghostwritten, Kevin?

Oh, we already know that. Yeah. And the ghostwriter— Yeah, the ghostwriter actually is a great ghostwriter. And he's getting paid at least a million is what the report is for writing the book. And there's probably backend incentives as well. It's the same writer, it's the same writer that did Shoot On from Phil Knight. So it's, that's the Nike book. There's a ghostwriter, they've already been working together for a while. I think the reports are that might've gotten a $20 million advance. So it's a—

Platform people.

Right. You know, but yeah, we'll see. We'll see if that, we'll see how that works out. I mean, I know that book will sell, but $20 million is a lot of money. And, you know, a lot of people don't know this, but publishers lose money on like 80% of the books that they buy. And it's really those 20% that really make it big that make up for the losses. That is going to be a good book. I'm looking forward to that book.

I am too.

I heard they signed a 4-book deal, both him and Meghan.

Oh, wow.

Good for them. Yeah.

But again, platform people.

That's right, platform, platform. Absolutely. Well, Kevin, it was so much fun to have you here today. We love talking with you. Um, we can't wait to, to keep in touch with you and see what all you're up to. And if people want to find out more about the business, where can they go?

Yeah, so our website is ka-writing.com. So it's K-A like Kevin Anderson and then writing like writing a book. So ka-writing.com. And yeah, we'd be happy to hear from, from anyone who's looking for help. And, you know, we, uh, we're not a publisher. We're just— we just help people with developing the content, and then we help guide them to the right publishing strategy. So, um, yeah, happy to help.

Awesome. Thank you so much. Thanks for being here. And thank you also to our producer Paul Roberts, our executive producer Emily Carpenter-Pulskamp of Little Red Communications. And we will see you next time. Have a great week, everybody.

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