Creating a Luxury Brand, Raising Money, & Building a Family

We launched our website on a Wednesday and we got a call on that Friday at 2 PM if we could go down to CBC and record at 4 PM. Hi, Dragon. My name is Victoria Marshman. And I'm Dani Kagan. We're the co-founders of Maven Shea, a luxury ergonomic slipper brand designed by women for women. The first ever stylish slipper, 9 ergonomic features. Taking care of your physical health, which starts with supportive footwear at home. So Vince and I will go in together, 300K. For 30%, but you get 2 dragons. You got a deal!

Basically, you wanted to do life on not just very hard mode, which is being an entrepreneur in general, but you decided to go like, like death mode. Like, I just hate my life so much.

Part of the beauty of my entrepreneurial journey is just kind of diving in, because I found a passion, I found an obsession, I realized that so many other people are having this issue, and like designing something that people actually want. And what we did really early on, which I highly recommend for anyone starting a business, is Dani, it's good to see you again. Thanks for having me. I'm really happy to be here.

Yeah, so I mean, there's a lot of good reasons why very few entrepreneurs in Canada especially build CPG brands. It's almost impossible to raise money. The market is small. It's an intensely difficult type of business to build. The competition, no matter what you do, is going to be huge. Basically, you wanted to do life on not just very hard mode, which is being an entrepreneur in general, but you decided to go like death mode. Like, I just hate my life so much. I'm going to do the hardest startup in one of the hardest places in the Western world. So why do you hate life, Dani? Why did you do this to yourself?

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You know what, I didn't know what I was signing up for, honestly, when I started the business. I didn't know a lot about designing a consumer product and selling it. I actually started it because I was a frustrated consumer and there was nothing on the market for me. I was pregnant during the pandemic. I was having really bad foot pain. I ordered a a bunch of different like house shoes and slippers and running shoes. And I was really frustrated there wasn't a slipper out there that was cozy and stylish, but also provided genuine science-backed support. And honestly, I didn't realize I was signing up for extra, extra hard mode and what, what you call death mode, which is hilarious. But I really like, and I think that's part of the beauty of it. I think like actually not knowing a lot and, teaching yourself and like learning about this whole industry actually gave me a leg up because I didn't, you know, I didn't know what I was signing up for. And I think that's like part of the beauty of my entrepreneurial journey is just kind of diving in because I found a passion, I found an obsession. I realized that so many other people are having this issue and like designing something that people actually want. So hard mode it is, I guess.

Most— that's usually the best way startups are created is when you find an issue that hasn't been solved well enough. And then you go and you build the thing. That's obviously great. So, your business is called Maven Chez.

Maven Chez. Maven Chez.

Maven Chez.

Okay.

I guess it's French because we're also in Canada. So, you have to have the French.

You have to have the French zazazu. But I actually, I love when people mispronounce it because then I get to explain the reason why we named it Maven Chez. It's actually named after me and my co-founder Victoria's late grandmothers, Mavis and Shana, who were both named after And then it has a double entendre. It also means like maven of the house in French. So there you go.

Oh, okay. That's, you know, there's this whole back in the day, like 10, 15 years ago when startups were like still not part of the cultural zeitgeist, you know, this whole thing about startup names was a big thing and you'd have like these algorithm producing, you know, just add LY to whatever you're doing. So if you're building a slipper company called Slipperly, you know, or something annoying like that. I went the opposite direction. I've consulted startups to go back to like 100 years ago, just call yourself last name, last name, LLP, or, you know, Kagan and whatever your co-founder's last name, you know.

That's it. That's exactly the direction that we took. Yeah, we were pretty lucky.

But your name is pretty good. I give it like an 8 out of 10 in startup naming, you know. Okay. It's pretty good.

Yeah. That's good. That's good. I honestly, I felt like it was like a little bit ambiguous and then it was also like very authentic for us because When you name after real people, it's like you can't go wrong, right? And it also really, it's really also about storytelling for us because when we get to share that it's named after our late grandmothers, it's all about like this raw, raw women's movement of paying homage to the women who came before us, but, you know, now supporting the women of our generation and the women who are coming after us. And I have two daughters, so it's really like full circle.

That's quite beautiful. It's interesting because my wife's grandmother just passed away very unfortunately, but she lived a very long and full life to 102, close to 102.

Wow.

Yeah. And what's amazing is her father was born in the 1860s, just to see like how you don't have to go so many generations to get all the way back. And the one thing that came up quite a lot, and obviously you see in her mother and herself, like my wife, how amazing like that, that transition, transmission is of values and character, like building these great character traits that really comes from, you know, many generations of great people. So I hear that. What about your grandparents that you feel you wanted to, you know, recognize that it was— did you make it part of the name of your business?

I mean, I'm named after my great-grandmother who I never got to meet. Shayna is my middle name, and she also lived to 103. And I think it was just special that we could like name after women who did a lot for their like families and communities and probably never got the opportunity to become entrepreneurs and do something for themselves. It was a very different time. And I feel like naming after them is like, you know, we're like our ancestors' greatest like dream come true that like women can step out and like build businesses while raising families. So, ooh, I'm getting like a little emotional thinking about it, but it's, you know, that's really what it came down to. And, um, you know, me and my business partner Victoria are very passionate about storytelling. And I think that's like part of it. And I actually learned while I was asking some of my family members about my great-grandmother, I asked them like stories about her and apparently she had severe foot issues and she would've loved our slippers. And I was like, wow, that's so interesting. So you learn stuff when you kind of dig deeper into like your family history and like make your brand not just, you know, a flashy brand, but really give it deep meaning.

So what makes your product different than like the many, many hundreds of other nice slippers out on the market? Like what did you see that was like, oh, this is not in the market and I need to go create something?

So initially when we were looking at designing this like house shoe, I mean, I'll backtrack. I had an or a podiatrist come to my house when I was, very early on in my pregnancy. She was actually the first person that found out I was pregnant because I was having this foot pain. And she came over and she assessed my foot and my gait. And she said, I'll give you an orthotic. And I said, that's great, but what am I going to put this orthotic into? And she said, you can put it into any of your running shoes. And I said, it's COVID, it's winter. I don't want to be walking around pregnant in my house in my running shoes. Like, this is not ideal for me. Can I put this into some sort of like nice slipper? She's like, "I don't have really much to offer you in that category." And that was a big aha moment for me. I thought, why are there no slippers on the market where you could take out the insole and put your own orthotic in? And so when I started going down the rabbit hole, months and months and months of calling people and looking things up and ordering different types of slippers from different brands, I realized that piece was missing. And among so many other pieces, one that a lot of slippers on the market got stinky really fast, so there was no washability. So that's why we created the insole that's washable and removable. And anyway, the more I learned, the more I realized like we could design kind of this, this mega slipper, this like ultimate slipper that has all of these functionalities in it to actually help your health and wellness and give you real support. There's a lot of like cloud-like comfort and, you know, messaging online and through marketing with brands that make it seem like they're really comfortable, but there's not actually real support. So that piece was really important. And then I realized there are orthotic slippers out there. They just look like a grandma slipper. So why don't we make this stylish enough for any woman to wear at any time and could leave the house in it? Um, 'cause I was noticing a lot of people starting to wear their slippers out and it was becoming a trend. So just looking at that trend, I thought, okay, we can make this both genuinely supportive, and, you know, science-backed, get the podiatrist's help, get foot experts' help, and then, you know, make them cool enough for you to wear anywhere. So that was kind of how it started. And I realized that, yes, there are so many great footwear brands out there, but I knew that we could create something very unique and very niche. I think that's like one of the big things about brands right now is like doing something niche and starting with a niche product and then expanding your product line. But we really decided we're going to be the go-to slipper for women who want luxury and support.

You know, that's the name of the game today is creating a niche, either functional or in your brand. It seems like you've kind of taken two approaches, which is one, you're focusing only on women, right? And then you're going to this kind of more— I wouldn't call it health-related because really anybody can wear your slippers, right? But that's the kind of where you came from. That's really interesting. Can you walk us through kind of the history of the business a little bit? Like, you know, you started, I guess, 2020 during the COVID restriction time and then, well, what's happened since? You know, what are your sales like? Have you raised venture capital money? You know, anything you could share about the journey since you started?

Yeah. So ideation in March 2020 and spent a lot of time actually doing research and development and calling people and talking to people before we dove right in. And I was running actually another business at the time, City Moguls, with my same partner, Victoria. So we were kind of running these two this idea of Maven Shea and running this entrepreneur community on the side. So, I was doing both kind of at the same time for about a year. And then I quickly learned that you cannot spread yourself too thin. You really have to just focus on something 100%. And so, we decided that Maven Shea had real legs and we could build a really solid e-commerce brand and there was a need for it. And so, we started trying to find like, someone who could manufacture this for us. We ended up finding a really great partner in Southern Brazil. Again, took us a really long time to find them 'cause it was just totally new territory for us. We didn't know anything about manufacturing and they were willing to take a chance on us as a new brand. And so we started working with them to design a prototype. And what we did really early on, which I highly recommend for anyone starting a business, is to start selling through pre-orders. And that's what we did. We started selling through a Kickstarter campaign. It built a lot of buzz. It allowed us to test the product, test the marketing, and see if people were actually gonna buy the product before it was even in production. And I think it's just a great way to start building community. So we launched on a Kickstarter, that was 2022. And then we spent the next 7 months and we raised $50K on there. I mean, we hit like our fundraising goal within 12 hours. So we were like, okay, we have something here. And we spent the next 6, 7 months producing the slippers from scratch and going down to Brazil and visiting our factory and started raising capital. And I didn't know anything about raising capital. I didn't even know where to start. But I eventually went to YouTube and there wasn't ChatGPT at the time. I went to YouTube and I started learning about different vehicles of raising capital and, you know, what people are doing in this space. And I learned that the best thing that we could do for ourselves at that time was do a family and friends angel round. And so we ended up raising almost $1 million over several months through family, friends, honestly, anyone who would give us checks at the time. We were really lenient with like our check sizes because we were just trying to build the company, which again is something that like I didn't know at the time that it would be better to have like less people on your cap table and take a bigger size check. But we learned that for like the future.

Yeah, one thing that strikes people as odd is the people that spent like that invest the fewest amount of dollars are usually the most active and they want more updates and complain a lot when things don't go the right way. That's something people realize.

Yeah, that for sure can happen. And you also just realize that you can have a lot of there can be a lot of investors, but really you're going to have like that few that are really active and involved. And you have to really know that as soon as you take a check from someone, you're in for it with them. So, you have to be very strategic with who you take checks from. And I think we did a good job of that. Like our cap table is filled with some incredible mentors and just people who really support us and are positive. And push us and challenge us. So I think that was like a big win for us. But yeah, so we raised about $1 million on that through a SAFE, and that really got money into the brand fast. And no, did we know how to like use that capital really well at the beginning? I don't think so, but I think we learned a ton, and I think like we stretched the cash as much as we could, and it really got us to like our next milestone. Like it got us to getting to market, it got us through that first, you know, full year pretty much of figuring out how to launch this as an e-commerce brand and, you know, running the ads, distribution channels, all of that. So I don't think— I think bootstrapping was working until a certain point, but with consumer product, it's a lot of— it's pretty capital intensive at the beginning. So you kind of need to know that piece. And I am glad that we bootstrapped it for the first couple years of R&D. But I am also really happy that we raised capital. A lot of people are like, "Don't raise capital, it's horrible." And I really don't feel like that's been our experience. I think if you bring the right people onto your cap table, it can be really, really helpful. Our investors are so supportive of us and challenge us. And yes, you have to manage them. And yes, you have to send reports. And I don't know what's going to happen in the future. Maybe call me in 5 years and maybe I'll be complaining about it. But Right now, I think it's been a huge help and a huge edge.

Mm-hmm. That's great. And you also got onto Dragon's Den, which is the Canadian equivalent of Shark Tank, right?

Yes. Yes. And we got onto Dragon's Den really early on in our journey, which was terrifying because I was like, they're going to annihilate us. We don't have anything to show for it. But when life hands you opportunities, you sometimes just need to take them. It might not feel like the right time. So yeah, that was pretty cool. We got a call from Dragon's Den. I mean, we actually didn't. We got a call from a producer a few months before we launched and went to market in 2023, and they actually called us saying, "We heard about your brand. We'd love to have you on Dragon's Den." And I thought, how the heck do they know us? And I realize, like, retrospectively, like, I really see that we built such a great community, like, over the course of 2 years with the Kickstarter and with all of the, you know, marketing initiatives we were doing and showing up on social. So it was really cool that they reached out to us and we sent in an audition tape and they actually put us on a standby list. So we weren't sure when we were gonna go into pitch. And then we launched our website on a Wednesday in May, and we got a call on that Friday at 2:00 PM if we could go down to CBC and record at 4:00 PM. Oh, it was a bit of an interesting experience because most people that go through the normal, you know, way to get onto Dragon's Den, have like a slot. They know when they're gonna be pitching, they can really prepare for it. Uh, we had zero prep. Uh, so that was pretty crazy and also fun because I didn't have time to get nervous. We shot down to downtown Toronto and like got mic'd up, didn't have time to go to the bathroom and like they threw us in and it was super cool. So I'm very grateful for that experience because maybe if it didn't feel like the right time, it was definitely worth it because it helped skyrocket that first year and a half of our business. And it's still a huge part of our, like, we're still talking about Dragon's Den.

Right.

So what happened?

Because if I put the actual clip on this video, I'll probably get demonetized or whatever, get copyright strikes. So you'll have to explain to us what actually happened.

I mean, the, like, the, like, pretty version of it is like, we pitched, we got a deal with 2 dragons on the show and it was awesome. You know, we got this, like, We got a deal with Michelle Romano on the show and Vincenzo Guzzo, and we, you know, left and it was awesome and everything is hunky-dory. And it was like an amazing experience. I mean, you'll see if you watch the episode, we're on Season 18, Episode 13, and we pitched in there. Like, you'll see this episode and it's about a 6-minute clip. We were in there for about an hour. So just to like put that into perspective, they're like editing clips together from an hour of footage. And they're asking you so many questions in there. Like they're trying to, you know, really like get a lot out of you and build story. And cause they, they don't actually air every single pitch that goes in. So you have to also be like, you know, put on your face so that you can get aired, right? You wanna, you want your episode to get aired. That's, the way that you get on the show. So yeah, we definitely were like dancing in there. We got all the dragons up and we got them dancing. 'Cause that's like our background is Vic and I met competitive during competitive dance years at university. And, you know, that was like part of our shtick. And yeah, I mean, honestly, nothing really happened after the show, except for the fact that Michelle really like hopped on to become a mentor of ours. And did eventually invest with us, but we did not take the deal that we got on TV. It really wasn't a deal that we thought after the fact was a good deal, and I'm happy we didn't do that. And I'm thrilled that we still are working with Michelle because she's absolutely incredible.

So what, what deal did you get?

So the deal on the, the deal on the show was, I want to say it was like $300,000 for 20% of our company. I don't even remember actually, something around that. Having already raised capital going into the show, I think we had raised about $400,000 or $500,000 going into the show. We knew that that didn't really help us at all to give away 20% equity is huge, especially when you have a co-founder, right? Like you're, it's not all you. And so it just felt not— it felt not good. And I think that's actually a really good lesson for entrepreneurs. Like, your gut will tell you if something is wrong. And if it's like not feeling great, it's not a good deal. It's not something like you should pursue.

Yeah. And I assume your SAFE wouldn't have been— wouldn't have triggered any conversion to anything else. Like, it's not just you're giving away 20% to those, but you're probably triggering something down the road that would force you to convert the SAFEs at a much lower valuation than on paper. So you would have lost quite a lot of your business doing that.

Yeah, for sure. For sure. And I mean, to be perfectly transparent, like we were told from other people that had gone on the show, like just try and get a deal because you don't know what will happen after. And that's really where the mark, like it's a marketing stint. It was an amazing marketing opportunity for us. And I knew that even though we weren't going to take that exact deal, like maybe we could negotiate another deal, which we did, which was awesome. And I feel like the clout of having Dragon's Den behind you is incredible. And I know for a fact that like obviously Michelle wears our slippers. She loves them. But I actually know for a fact that Arlene also likes our slippers because I had seen her at an event after we had filmed and she said, "Oh, I love your slippers. I wear them all the time." So, and you'll see in the episode, she gave us really a hard time. So it's really funny because it's like a lot of it is just television. I think you have to remember that like it's a TV show at the end of the day.

Right, right. Which is interesting because it is reality in a sense that these are people that are actually investing money or have the potential to. That, you know, I knew this from behind the scenes also. I know a few people that went on Shark Tank and Dragon's Den and they've said this is something very similar. It's like you'd have one to two hour kind of like pitch and they'd cut it down to 6 to 10 minutes. And it's just like, you know, it's obviously there to create narrative to be entertaining and engaging. But people get the wrong impression because I'm a VC, right? I do this. That's my job. I know that you're not making an investment decision based off 6 to 10 minutes of discussion with the founder. Like, it's just not the way it works. And not only that, after the show, a lot of times the investors will do due diligence, right? They're not just— they have to verify whatever was said during the pitch. So it's not just, oh, you got the deal, therefore handshake, we're wiring you money the next day. It's no, now you go through probably 2 to 3 months of intense due diligence to confirm everything.

Oh my God, not even 2 to 3 months, like maybe 6 months, a year. So I've heard, yeah, stories of people doing due diligence for like a year.

So I think the stats on Shark Tank is maybe like maybe 40% of the deals on air get actually closed, even if it's different deal that actually leads to an investment. It's really, it is reality TV, which is, you know, part fake, part, you know, based on something real. So it's important for people to understand that context. It's not like that straightforward, but it is entertaining. And I think it inspires a lot of people to start businesses because this is, this is what business is. It's great. Like you're building a business, you get to see all these amazing entrepreneurs, hear their stories, and then see how investors, really great entrepreneurs, think about these things when they're looking to deploy capital.

And yeah, I mean, I was also just going to say, you know, like, like I had always dreamed about going on Dragon's Den. Like I had been watching the show for many, many years, like even before I became an entrepreneur. So it was, it was a pretty big moment just to like even be there. And I don't think like I actually, you know, sometimes when big milestones happen in like a business, it's kind of like it happens and then it's a fleeting, you know, moment or memory. But I think it's like important to like celebrate like those big things that happen to you because like it is a big deal. It's like to get on these shows, there's lots of people, there's lots of of ideas. And yeah, so yeah, and we're potentially, I mean, we have some things in the pipeline coming up with Michelle, so I can't say too much. But yeah, we're really grateful to like have her officially on our cap table. And, you know, as a mentor, like not just, you know, I really, really despise the like, here's a check and I'll see you in 10 years kind of thing. I really love when people put their money in and are invested and like want to help and share things. And that's what she has done and so many other people on our cap table. So it's been great.

That's a very nice perspective because most entrepreneurs would say the opposite. They, a lot of, okay, there's kind of two things going on because I see this all the time. It's like we want strategic investors, right? My personal perspective is that the most value an investor can give you is money and everything else is bonus. But also most, not most, I don't know, there's no real way to judges, but a lot of people try to get too involved and oftentimes it's counterproductive. Like the best thing for an investor to do is just step back and only help when asked to help, you know, unless they really have expertise in the space, you know, they really can add some value.

It's so funny because we don't actually have anyone on our cap table or any investors like to have put money in that are actually in the shoe industry or even in the fashion space at all. And I actually think it's a huge bonus because we have people, like investors that will come and just give us ideas on certain places that we could go for distribution or ideas on how to build community in different ways or open doors for us to people we would never have been able to reach. So I actually find like, yes, it would be great to have someone who is like an absolute magician, you know, had an exit with another shoe brand and come to us with all this expertise. But like, we can find that with mentors. We find that with other founders. Um, I actually find it really valuable, like with the investors that we do have, and they give us totally different perspective and they are really hands-off. Like no one is breathing down our neck. Like I think that would be really difficult. And I see why some founders like hate their investors because they're, they're too involved. And it is difficult for you to run your business when someone's too involved and We really haven't had that issue. And I actually really appreciate the amount of involvement that they have had, most of them. Like some of them are very hands-off and some of them like will send us an idea or a text message with an idea, or we'll go to them with a question and they will respond. And with CPG, it's so important that they also believe in like your product because then they go and share your product with other people. Like our investors are buying our products, they're gifting them, like they're gifting slippers to their wives, to their husbands, to their wives, to their daughters, to their mothers, you know, people in their—

not yet. I'm in the market for slippers, believe it or not. We actually went shopping for slippers like right the day before my wife gave birth, right? Probably she was a week or so early. So we were walking around the mall. We need to get me new shoes because I live like a hobo. You know, I don't buy new things. I like, I'll wear the same shoes until they literally disintegrate into nothing. That's how I am in life. I still have the same coat I had since I was 14. I'm not joking. It's like, I'm just a—

That's awesome.

I go shopping once every 3 or 4 years. I know what I'm getting. I go in and I go out, you know?

I'm like, fuck this.

If you want to live with me.

More people should be like that, honestly. Maybe not to that extent, but you know, I love that.

I'm just like—

We need to get you some slippers. What do you wear like on your feet at home right now? Like anything supportive or?

I know I walk around barefoot.

Okay. Yeah. So we're gonna, we're gonna change that for you one day. For you.

Yes. I'm happy to be a customer because I went, we went to the mall.

This is the, is the point.

We went to Von Mills. You probably know Von Mills here. Yeah. And, um, we just walked around. I just couldn't find it. Like, I'm, I'm very picky. Like, I, for someone that lives like a hobo, I'm also very picky. I'm going to go out and buy something. I want to actually like it. So I bought new shoes. It took me like 6 months to find new shoes that I actually liked, like for outerwear. And, um, so I'm very picky. I went in and I just like, eh, and there's like some nice ones, but they're so expensive. It's like $400 for slippers. That's, yeah, I'm not doing this. Like, I just give up. I'm just not I'm just not doing it, you know?

You know what? I think there's like a lot of people that are like this and growing like this community of people who are like, I want to spend my hard-earned money like on stuff that I really, really like. And I don't want to just like buy— I think like the consumer has totally changed. I think 10 years ago, like people were doing a lot of fast fashion, just buying like cheap things and were excited about like sales and cheap things and would, you know, turn things over every quarter, go shopping very frequently. And I think we're seeing a change now where people actually do want to spend money on, you know, items that really make them feel amazing. They've looked them up, they're doing more research on the brands, and I'm all for it. So you're, you're already in that camp, which is great, but you have to also do research on the companies. And I think that's like a big part of it too. Like the fact that, you know, I, I know that there are, so many great companies out there, but like, I don't know where their manufacturing facilities are. I don't know how they're being made. And we're very transparent that we're made in southern Brazil, ethical factory. We've been there ourselves. We're very proud of that. Everyone's getting paid.

Ethical meaning no slave labor?

No slave labor.

But you need the children, like they have small hands that can like do things very meticulously, you know?

You know what? We saw our factory and it was just like a breath of fresh air, like everyone working in great conditions and obviously working really hard, but like the bell goes off and they get a break and the bell goes off and they go home. And like, it was just, and people ask us like, why are your slippers at the price point that they're at? 'Cause they're over the $200 mark. They're between like $195 and $240. And I'm like, well, every person, every hand that our slippers pass through, they're all getting paid fair wages. And I think that's a huge part of it. And number two, like we're using premium materials. They're all locally sourced. Using 100% genuine shearling so your slippers aren't getting stinky. All of like, just so many thoughtful things about it. And I think that when we tell people that, they're like, oh, you could probably sell them for more. So, you know, it's interesting because I think, and I'm such a different consumer now. Like I shop very differently now being in this space. And I think it's made me a much more thoughtful, conscious consumer.

I'm going to rant for a second because, um, you know, you triggered something in me right now. So when I went to this mall recently, this is the whole thing between online and in-person. Like I found, I finally found a slipper that was like decent. It wasn't crazy price. It seemed okay. And then I went to the person in the thing, like in the store and like, do you have this size? And they're like, yeah. Or let me go check in the back. And then like, I'm waiting there for 15 minutes and this person helps like 5 other people that came after me before helping me. I'm like, yo. Like, are you gonna help me or what? And she's like, yeah, another 10 minutes. I'm like, okay, it's like, I'm, I'm done with this. I'm just gonna buy everything online from now. Like, I'm, so I went online, I look, I said, so I just, I, I can't, I can't deal with human beings anymore in person.

Honestly, like I love online shopping and there's something like amazing about it. And you get to like, you know, obviously like you miss the trying on piece, but I feel like, you know, there's certain things you always wanna go try on in person, but with like the ease of exchanging and returning now, like, because you can exchange and return our shoes like really easily. So like, why not just like do it online? It's so fun and it's so easy and it just like comes to your door. It's so cool. And that's also one of the big pieces I wanted to launch this as an e-commerce brand because I saw so many more people shopping online and I saw how cool it was to be able to like do all of your marketing online.

And the other thing is that, you know, price is one— like price is obviously a concern, even a concern for me. I can afford these types of things. But the point is like you don't want to feel like you're one being taken advantage of, like you're spending more than something is worth. But the other problem is that things are high priced today, but like, which is not a problem in and of itself. The problem is that everything feels cheap. Like I went to the store again, buying, looking for outerwear and I'm looking at these shoes, they're $300, $400, $200, whatever it is for like a nice pair of shoes to go outside. And it just feels so flimsy. You know, I just, it's like, why? Like I'm okay to pay the high price, but not for something that's so cheap that's going to ruin in like a year. It's like everything, like I have shoes from, this is not just because I'm a, I live like a hobo, but because I genuinely like to wear things that are like, things that last are good. I like things that last. And the shoes I bought 10, 15 years ago last. I bought shoes 2 years ago. They lasted maybe, you know, not low price shoes, lasted maybe 5 wears and then they started to like already come apart. I was like, this is, this is like, I couldn't believe it. I was like, this is, How, how are brands building such garbage? So if you're building something that is in a higher price point, but it's actually made well, I think you're, you're good to go.

Yeah.

Personally.

And I, I get a lot of advice that's like, this is a marketing game, like focus on your marketing. And yes, I agree with that. But like your product really does need to like do what it says it does. And when we get complaints from customers, because every company gets complaints, and we don't get tons, but when they happen, we take them really seriously. Like someone's, like the seam of, or the stitching like came apart from someone's slippers. Like that's not okay. Like we go to our factory and we're like, what happened? And we exchange them and we, you know, we take care of it because your product has to do what it says it does. And we're really big on that. And I know it's like a marketing game and I know that a lot of how we get out there is through the marketing. But at the end of the day, your product has to speak for itself.

Have you ever tried raising from typical VCs? And like, how did that happen?

Yeah, it's really— can I swear on this podcast?

Yeah.

It's really fucking hard in Canada.

I happen to be one of those people that make it hard, but yeah.

Well, I mean, listen, it's not that it's— it's not like it's, oh, it's Canada's fault. It's like, it's just the size of the country and it's the size of, you know, people's pockets here. And we're in a very economically challenging time and raising money during COVID was actually phenomenal. And with our first raise, we did have, it was led by a VC. So, we call it like it was a family friends angels round, but there was a VC involved in that one. I think it helped a lot. We're backed by Two Small Fish Ventures and Eva Lau has been an amazing champion of our brand. Literally invested in us when we just had a really shitty, ugly prototype, but she knew what we were building and understood the vision and took a chance on us at a very good time. And yeah, I mean, with our most recent raise, we've definitely been trying to go to VCs, but yeah, I think it's like, listen, there's a few things at play. One, I am a mom of two. I have a 4.5-year-old and I have a 9-month-old. Oh, actually she's 10 months 10 months today. I don't know when this is gonna be launched, but she's 10 months. Thank you. So, you know, just hopping on a plane and going to New York to get a meeting is, you know, not really, um, how, like, it's not something that we can just do on a dime. And my business partner is now pregnant, so like we're building families while we're building businesses. And so one of the biggest challenges for us is like, we're not these 20-year-old like tech entrepreneurs who can just like, you know, go around the US to like raise capital. And I've kind of surrendered to that because I want to be a good mom. And I also like being a mother and building my business at the same time. And I don't want to be that mom that's never around. And so that's, that's one piece of it. And the other piece of it is like CPG is just difficult anyway to raise VC dollars. And I would say the last piece is like, you also don't want to just get any person to, you know, be your investor. Like, I think that You know, there was actually an investor last year that we said no to because we learned like the reputation wasn't what we wanted it to be. And, you know, the credibility was there, but the reputation wasn't good. And we were just like, no, we're not taking money from this person. Like, this is our baby. This is our business. And we really want the right people to be behind it. And I do think we need to show more for sales for a VC. Like, I think for some angel investors, we're like, doing amazing, they see the growth. We went from, you know, our gross sales from year 1 were like $170 grand to, you know, $750 grand to our next year. Like, they see the growth, they see the potential, but VCs are very demanding and want to see really fast growth. And again, they're like comparing a lot to tech brands and tech companies and SaaS companies that build very different from CPG, especially fashion brands. So I'm not, I'm very hopeful and I know the right partner will come along and I would love to get backed by, there's a few people that I would love to get backed by and I think we'll get there.

Yeah, right, right. You actually brought up a very good point that most founders don't really consider because they think capital is mostly more or less equal, but it's not. There actually is something called a toxic investor. And I very rarely encourage an entrepreneur not to take money if it's offered. But there is a category of investors that can actually be a negative for your business, even if they're giving you money that can really help you grow and even survive. It's just not worth it. Like, you may as well just shut down the business if that's your only option. So these toxic— I made a video about this. You know, there's different signs you can tell. Obviously, the reputation is one, doing the reference calls, all that stuff is important. But I'm curious from your point of view, how did you figure out that this person was something, someone you didn't want on your cap table? And what were some of those characteristics that you were filtering for? Like, how did you actually figure that out?

So I feel like getting an investor, like bringing an investor on is kind of like how you hire your team, your internal team, and you don't just hire people. Oh, like they had a good interview, you're hired. Like you have to hire so slowly and understand who people are and do those reference calls and Speak to other founders who have maybe worked with them. And, you know, if, especially if it's someone you don't have any relationship to, and that's why we actually tend to hire now only with like warm introductions, because we've hired in the past where we didn't know the person and we, you know, still tried to hire solo, but it was just never a good fit. And now we kind of rally our founder community to be like, hey, do you have this person? Do you have this expert? Have you worked with them? How was the experience? And that's how we hire our internal So it's kind of the same process with an investor. It's like, you know, having a great meeting, not just pitching yourself, but asking them questions. Who else is on your portfolio? What do you love about our brand? Where do you see our brand going? What value do you think you're gonna add here? Are you a hands-off investor? Are you hands-on? What does hands-on mean to you? You know, are you available by text or available by phone call? You know, like these questions you have to ask the investor because like they have to be a good fit for you. So it's kind of like hiring. And I think that's been a big part of our success is we did that very early on. And I think the other piece of that was a gut check. Like honestly listening to our gut. We had 3 meetings with an individual and the first meeting was so great. And I was like, this is a great person. And then when we did that reference check and asked someone about this person, it was like, not a great person. Wouldn't recommend, this is what's happened. And I was like, no, no, I'm gonna make this decision still, even though I had information. And the more meetings I had, the more I was like, something's not feeling good in my gut. And I don't wanna take a chance just because I had one good meeting. I have to take all of the information that was given to me and then make the call. So yeah, I think it's all about like treating your investors like you're bringing them onto your team. Do you want them on your team?

Right, right. I don't disagree with you, but I'm going to push you a little bit here. I'm going to play devil's advocate because I think founders really need to understand this point. If they're listening and paying attention to whatever we're saying, let's hammer the point home because an investor is not an employee, obviously, right? And you have a lot— your deal with them, the investment actually forces them to be passive unless they have a board seat and anything like that, which I don't think we're talking about, right? They don't have any vetoes on your budget or like they're not— that's not what we're talking about. So really, you could just ignore them in theory. They don't need to be part of your business. They could just be someone that, you know, you give them their updates and you make sure you fulfill whatever rights they have as investors, as with any of your investors. But why would you not just take the money and just regulate them to their passive role, which is what they are in reality and legally?

100%.

I think you should take checks if, if like the values are aligned and the person is going to invest with you. And like, I agree with you, like, the passiveness is not the problem. That's not the issue. The problem is the person, the individual. And it's kind of like what you're saying about like a toxic individual. Like, even if they're passive, like, they're still involved in some capacity and they're still on your cap table and they're people— other people will see them on your cap table. And, you know, we are smart about like community building. Like, we'll invite our investors to our events. And, you know, bring them, you know, give them other opportunities to meet other investors and other founders. So, you know, I think you can do it where everyone is passive and you just take the checks as they come in. And yes, you can do that. But I think like there's a layer of like, make sure they're just good people, make sure you have good people behind you because at a certain point in your business, they are gonna become more involved. Like if you're doing really well, you might start hearing some more knocks on your door. And I think it's important to just be surrounded by great people, even if they're passive. And yes, it's not the same as hiring someone internally, but I'm using that like as a framework of like bringing them onto your team. Because at the end of the day, like you just don't know you. And I didn't know enough. And probably if I had done this like process more like differently at the beginning, I maybe wouldn't have taken certain checks. But honestly, like, like you said, I was just, you're at the beginning of your journey. You need the money. You take what you can get. And I think like overall it's worked out really well for us. But I think like, I think you have to have good people behind you. I think like life is, life can just throw you a curveball and you just don't know. So I think it's important to just have that gut check and be like, yeah, I think this is a good person. Then some, some background and now I'm ready to take your money.

Right. I guess I'm just a little bit concerned because I'm not a good person. And if that was a statement, I'm not getting, I'm joking.

I'm trying.

I'm like, you're pretty good. I was like, I have a pretty good gut check on you.

You're a pretty good dude.

Thank you. Thank you. I wasn't fishing for compliments, but I appreciate that. Anyway, I'll say like, I want to just give a message to founders also, because again, you made it, you brought up another important point. And the issue a lot of time found is the founder has options. Obviously take the best from the people you have. Raise the money you need, not the money you can. That's an important point. You don't have to raise money just because someone's offering money. Don't don't take it unless you absolutely need it, right? That's lesson one. So now you're in that, you need the money, right? Let's assume you do. And this is the only investor in front of you. And let's say you were faced with that exact same decision. If you feel, it's not always true, but let's say you feel that it's either take the money from this not good person who's an investor or potentially shut the business or fire people, right? So this is the mindset of a lot of entrepreneurs. And I understand why they would make the decision to take the money, right? I do want to I can say from my own experience, and again, I've been on boards, I've dealt with these kinds of people. I've seen how they operate. I've seen how the damage certain people can do, even though they give you money and they may save you in the short term.

Right.

And you brought up a very good way to frame this. I'm going to just say it in my own words, is that the money they're bringing always comes with strings. Everybody comes with strings. And sometimes those strings are fine. I mean, sometimes it's just an update and sometimes it comes with reputational damage and negative signals. That could be so bad that it will destroy any possibility for you to raise more money in the future. And people think that that's a bit extreme, but I've seen it happen. And especially if you're giving investors, which you do most of the time, rights in your business, like certain veto rights, they may have right of first refusal, they may have drag lock. There's so many rights that they would have in any normal financing that they can actually destroy your business, right? So it's not a trivial thing who you bring on to your cap table. It really isn't. And I would even say to some people in some circumstances, it's better to shut down the business and take money from certain types of people. It could be that extreme because anyways, you're just delaying the inevitable because these people will destroy you anyways. And again, they're very rare, but they exist. And I'll put a link to my video on toxic investors here.

Yeah, I want to hear that. Yeah.

Yeah. I'll give you just one example. I've seen this happen where an investor would have the right to determine the next financing if it doesn't meet certain parameters or even just in general, like I've seen, like I've really seen this where they would have the right to basically veto future financing, which is not market today, but it's common enough. So what they will do in those circumstances, so you're running out of cash and you have, you need to raise more money and you have an interested investor. They will use that as leverage to get certain concessions out of you.

Right.

They would use that lever and they have all the leverage in the world because you can't raise money without their approval. Right. And you could say, well, they're not acting as a fiduciary in your business and it's illegal.

Yeah.

Good luck suing them. You know, cause you're gonna be out of business by the time anything happens on that front. And they know that., and they'll use that to get better terms, right? Terms that will screw you as a founder, you know, and you don't have a choice. You don't have a choice. And these are just bad people because they're just going to take every advantage and leverage they have over you to get the best deal for themselves. You know, just like one example, right? So yeah, anyways.

Yeah. And listen, when you're early on, you really don't know a lot about this stuff. Like I remember being so overwhelmed at the beginning with like certain legal terms and I would look things up and again, we didn't have ChatGPT. PT and it was really confusing and it was not my wheelhouse. And you know, I just, we just tried our best. We would like, Victoria and I remember like would sit on like a 3-hour call like going through like agreements and figuring out like, you know, terms and things people were asking us. And it was very, very scary because you're like, I don't actually fully understand what I'm doing here, but like I gotta just make a decision because I've got to build this business. Like I can't just like stay in a place of nervousness and anxiousness, I have to move forward eventually and take action because at the end of the day, what I'm here to do is to build a business. So yeah, I'm sure, again, call me in 5, 10 years, I don't know when we're gonna sell this thing, but maybe I'll be like, "Shoot, we really fucked up at the beginning because we didn't realize that we were giving this much away or these rights or this letter or whatever." But that's part of it. That's part of it. I don't think any, like, first-time founder is going in knowing all of the trade secrets. And I think a lot of people make these mistakes and, like, it's just kind of part of the journey. You kind of just have to accept that and make the best decision possible at the time for yourself. And that's all you can do, honestly. You kind of have to trust yourself.

Right. That's great advice. I guess I'll go to my— one of my last questions here, which is what is the best business advice you've received?

The best business advice I've received? Oh man, I've received a lot.

I was asking what's the worst business advice you've received too. That's probably a better one.

One of the— I think one of the best pieces of advice is truly what I said, which is you have to take quick action and make decisions fast. And I think we, especially as women, can get really stuck and feeling like we need to make perfect decisions and think things through to an extent where you become an expert. And it's like, you can never become a full expert with all the different hats you're wearing as an entrepreneur. You kind of just need to do the assessment, make a decision, and move on, and kind of not look back. And, and that's kind of what I was saying about like us raising capital at the beginning, like not knowing everything, doing the best job we we could at the time, but like not getting stuck and paralyzed in not knowing everything about raising capital and just doing it and moving forward. Like, I don't think we would be where we are today if we stayed in the mindset of like, we don't know anything about raising capital. And like, I still don't know a ton, and we're just doing it. You know, you just got to move forward, take action, and make decisions fast. That's probably the best advice I've gotten.

That's great.

And I dish it out. I dish it out.

My last question here is, would you consider moving to the US to build your business if that's what you felt was the best thing or the most likely path to success? A lot of data coming out now that Canadian founders are largely moving to the US. 50% of all high potential founders are moving to the US, meaning they've raised at least $1 million USD. And one-third are staying in Canada. So just curious on your thoughts.

Yeah, it's a great question. I think about it a lot. I think about it from a business perspective. I think about it from an antisemitism perspective. I think about it from a family planning perspective. I'm very lucky my husband's a US citizen technically, so it would, it's very possible. It's a really hard thing to uproot your whole life though, when your family's here, you have aging parents. I think there's like a lot of people who, have like lots of different types of circumstances and can just again, like do that and move. I think I can build a really big US business from Canada. I really do believe that. And I travel to the US often, like I'm in New York for a trade show at the end of this month. We were in LA, we were in New York twice last year. We're really lucky that it's not so far away. So I would definitely consider moving there. I think about it a lot. I talk about it a lot and maybe it's like a short stint to move there. To be boots on the ground. I think it's really important to be boots on the ground. It's definitely not a no.

Okay. I think a lot of founders are exactly in that, like, mindset. Circumstantial-based. It's not a no. It's a serious consideration. And hopefully the Canadian government can do things to make the decision easier to stay here and better.

Yeah.

More beneficial to stay here.

Yeah, I think we have—

Fight the antisemitism is maybe just a good one to start, I guess.

Yeah, I mean, antisemitism, holy crap. I don't know what city we're living in right now, but it is a weird time and a bit scary. So yeah, I'm definitely, we, I mean, my whole family's been talking about it, right? So there's that piece. But yeah, I also think like, you know, there are government grants that you can get. Like we got a government grant to do expansion in the US and it allows us to travel there at a much better price, you know. So there are things you can do to expand into the US, um, and into Europe. There's other places in the world you can expand to, but I think for an e-commerce brand like ours, I do really believe we can build a big business from here with, um, you know, traveling to the US. But yeah, to build like a really big business, I think, I think there's something to moving there temporarily for sure.

We'll leave off on that very positive note on how Canada is doomed, basically.

But I really don't think Canada is doomed.

I know, I know, I do. I do.

I'm just, I'm just this past year I was like, Canada is doomed, but I'm actually feeling very hopeful. I don't know, maybe it's like the new year and I'm just like, things will get better. I don't know. I'm very hopeful. I'm very, very optimistic about the future of Canada. And I think like you have to be, otherwise it's just not a fun place to be in. So we're hopeful. This is a hopeful note.

Right, right. Founders by nature have to be optimistic or else they stop doing everything they're doing. Investors have to be pessimistic by nature because they're seeing all these companies, they have to figure out why they shouldn't invest in them. So I guess that's the contrast here. And it was very nice to speak with you. We're going to leave information about MavenShay down below. Hopefully, you know, people can go check it out. They're great products. I saw them myself. I'm considering buying one for my wife because she likes this kind of thing. Yeah, hopefully people check it out. And thank you so much.

Thank you for having me. This is great.