From Wildlife to Benchmark with Victor Lazarte

We've got a great guest for you today, Victor Lazarte, co-founder of Wildlife Studios and partner at Benchmark Capital. Let's listen. Victor, thank you so much for coming.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah, so for you guys that don't know, Victor is the founder of Wildlife Studios, which is one of the largest mobile gaming companies in the world. I think over a billion people have played your games, right?

Yeah, close to 2 billion.

Close to 2 billion. Wow, that's even more. And he now is a Partner Benchmark. Everyone says, you know, like went to the dark side of investors.

I heard this so many times.

Yeah. And more than that, we're also friends for now 12 years or something like that. So I'm really excited to have you here because I'm going to get to ask you all the embarrassing questions that only I know.

I hope they're not too embarrassing.

Exactly. I was thinking about it and I was remembering like the first time that we met. I was 16 or 17.

We went for chicken.

We went for chicken in São Paulo. For context, Victor and I are both Brazilian. And I remember you were very cagey about what you did. Why was that, you think?

I think it's kind of like 2 things. One is just my personality. I was never a fan of the spotlight, but on top of that, When I started Wildlife, I had a couple really bad experiences with investors. So my brother and I, we started in 2011 and we tried to raise a seed round and everyone turned us down, which was fine. And the best term sheet we got was $50,000 for half the company. We turned that down. But then as the company worked and the first game started getting downloads and we had revenue. The app stores are very transparent, right? So those are mobile games and you can know exactly how much money a mobile gaming company's making. So everyone knew, oh, this company's doing really well. And a bunch of investors started reaching out to us and we're like, yeah, let's engage with these people. They seem super smart. So one of the leading venture firms in Brazil reached out to us and then we went to their offices, we explained their business, we shared financials, we shared everything. And shortly after, the partner that took all those meetings started a competing company. And so it was kind of like an incubation. So the firm never gave us a term sheet and they just said, hey, thank you very much. This was business sounds amazing. They didn't tell us anything, but a few months later we saw some apps in the App Store and even the name was very similar to the names of our apps.

Oh, wow. So full copy. Full copy.

But those things are funny because dumb people copy the wrong things. So I guess the world found a way to make justice and that company obviously never went anywhere. But that was the first Really negative experience that we had with investors. And then a couple months later, another prominent venture investor in Brazil reached out and again, we engaged with them, very impressive person. And then this guy gave us a term sheet and by that time the company was profitable. We were like, I think we're generating $6 million a year in profits. And he wanted to invest at a $10 million valuation. And so he wanted 10% of the company. And so we're very profitable and we're paying dividends, we're paying dividends every month. And so he wanted to buy 10% of the company for a million dollars on a preferred security, which means that he would make the investment and 2 months later he would get all the money back and he would be left with 10% of the business. And my brother and I are like, this is theft. And of course the venture scene in Brazil changed a lot, but this is 2012 and those are some of the best investors out there. And I'm like, oh shit, these people are crooks. And every time we spend time talking to people outside of the business, we just find these people that are not helpful, that want to take advantage of us and we get distracted from the business. So I think these 2 things combined, the combined lesson for this experience were like, hey, just be heads down, focus on your business, just don't engage with the outside world. So when I met you, there was this entrepreneur that introduced us like, oh, this is kids, they're super interesting, go meet them. And I was like, yeah, sure, let's go meet these smart kids. But I saw no advantage in explaining my business to you or anything like that.

Yeah. And do you think that was the First time when this investor kind of copied you that you got screwed in your life like that, that someone blatantly broke your trust like that?

Well, I was screwed before, but not business-wise because before that I had nothing. So people couldn't screw me out of money because I had no money. But yeah, I think all of us, we all have to endure the betrayal, false friends at one point in life. And I think with me it was no different. On a professional context, that was the first time that I was like, oh.

Is there any story that comes to mind from earlier childhood or teenage years that kind of sparked that feeling for the first time?

I don't know if there's anything that is super interesting, but when I was in college, I had this very close friend who I admired very much and he had come from a very humble background and I'm a sucker for people that overcome adversity. And so this guy, he— so I went to college in Paris and this guy went to Paris with me and he was less polished, but he was super smart and he was a hustler. And then when it was time for people to graduate and try to get jobs, I was spending a lot of time with him. And I was like, hey man, you can do anything you want. You're the most impressive person here. And so I was helping him find a job and get a job. And then I was just so frustrated because the minute he got the job, he just immediately stopped responding to me.

What job was it that he was—

He wanted to be an investment banker in London. And then we're spending all this time together and immediately after that, he got the job. Stopping like responding to me, and a few months later he started dating this girl that that I had a huge crush on.

Yeah. Oh my God!

I was like, "Oh man, that sucks." But that does suck. Yeah, that's life.

But it is something I think I noticed about you, like from pretty early on. You're like, you know, even though we met, you didn't tell me too much about your business. You're like very down to help me, you know, and like give me advice. And you know, you seem to help this guy. Like where do you think it came from? Like that you just wanted to like help these young hustling kids, you know? which fits very well with your new job right now.

It does, right?

Yeah. Where do you think it kind of comes from?

I think I love being around really smart people and I really pride myself on seeing talents before other people do.

Oh, interesting.

So the thing that I love most is there's this person who's like, hey, there's huge potential here. And it's even more interesting when other people don't think there is. People that are slightly controversial, Honestly, like I remember so vividly our first lunch. Like you were sixteen, like you and Pedro, and I was like, "Fuck man, this kid is so special." Like you're sixteen, and like I've never in my life I've seen a sixteen-year-old talk like that. And like this is going to be a super interesting ride. Like I remember having this vivid feeling, and then when you meet someone like that, it's like it's this feeling of like oh there's this secret. hidden in plain sight. It was like by that time you knew a bunch of people and people knew you, but I was like, I'm sure, we can never be sure. But I was like, to the extent that you're gonna be sure, I was like, hey, I'm sure this is gonna be so interesting. And part of it is you also wanna prove yourself right. So then I was like, hey, I'll do anything I can to help you succeed. 'Cause part of it was like, hey, I wanna show everyone that I was right. Yeah.

Oh, I definitely relate to that feeling too of obviously, I remember we had this very instant chemistry, and obviously we've been very close friends since then. And I sent you this email saying, I know we just met, but I feel we're going to do great things together.

Yeah. I remember reading that email.

What did you think when you read that email?

Man, I was like, this guy's so full of shit. It's like this 16-year-old. It's almost like, okay, you read a sales book. And then like you see like all these obvious tactics and like he's using all of them. But the crazy thing is like it works. It's like, okay, you're 16. Like you're obviously, it's like, okay, like I'm kind of like ahead of you in your journey. Like you're obviously like, hey, like trying to learn something. And like you're saying these things like, oh, like we're gonna do great things together. Dude, like what are you doing? You're 16, man. Like we're not gonna do anything together. But yeah, like let's, we're gonna hang out. It's gonna be fun.

Yeah, I'll take you to dinner. Yeah, a couple more times.

Yeah.

That's so funny.

But even that, it's just like, okay, you're obviously doing the right thing to engage with smart people. And I think if you meet a 25-year-old that is saying that, you're like, yeah, whatever. But a 16-year-old that realized that, it's just very endearing.

Yeah, no, I remember I was very Shameless at the time.

Yeah, at the time.

You know, I'm trying to get more back to it. You know, like, you have more to lose, you start kind of like being like more guarded and, and stuff like that. And, you know, I'm actually trying to go more towards my 16-year-old self. But, but going back to you, so one of the things that I thought was most interesting about your journey was You know, because of maybe these experiences that you have, you're so guarded. Like you didn't ask all, you didn't get like too many people to help you early on, right? Like you guys did like so much like by yourself. Yeah. You know, the thing that I've found was crazy impressive looking back is like, you know, you got to like $6 million of profit in the first year and like, who were you talking to? Like you weren't even like, you're getting screwed by Brazilian VCs. Like how did you like learn and get advice and like kind of grow without Oh, the internet is this wonderful place. What did you read? What was your internet place that you went to do stuff?

Man, it's nothing special. It's just when my brother and I decided to start a mobile gaming company, the first order of business is we went to YouTube and we typed how to make a mobile game. And then I was obsessed. And even I think We just Googled. It was like, okay, we wanna start a company. We literally Googled what should you do when you start a company? And then it was like, oh, you should raise a seed round. And we tried to do that. That didn't work. But the tutorial that we found on YouTube, that was a pretty good tutorial.

We literally—

Yeah. Our first game was literally, we saw this tutorial, we made that game and we put it online and of course it didn't work, but we learned so much. But then the thing, I was obsessed with biographies and I was obsessed with understanding the lives. I still am understanding the lives of people that did super interesting things. So I spent a million hours looking at, so first reading the biographies, Elon Musk and Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and whatever. And after you're done with all of that, was like, okay, what are all the books that these people recommend? So I've spent so much time just trying to understand, okay, what are the favorite books of all these people? What are the books that influence them? And they're reading all these books. And to be honest, I'm not recommending that people do that. It's just a waste of time. If you can talk to someone that has built something, that's the way you do it, which is just— insanely more effective. But yeah, so we bootstrapped the business and we didn't have—

Isn't it crazy that that guy that created that YouTube video about how to make mobile games had an impact on building this multibillion-dollar company and he probably doesn't even know it?

No, but even crazier is the total outside investment in the company in the first 9 years was $100 and the $100 was the Apple developer program was $50. They had to pay $50 to get that.

Yeah.

And then the other $50 that we spent is when you're making a mobile game, the icon is very important. Because if you have a good icon, you have very high conversion and you have high conversion, you go up the charts and this is a positive feedback loop. So it's like, okay, we got to make it very good. And because the team was just my brother and I, we're the programmers, game designers, We did everything, so the games didn't look that good. And then we said, okay, the icon's really important. So, okay, let's make a great icon. So let's invest. So half of the company's budget was on the icon. So we spent $50. So we went online, we found this designer marketplace, spent $50. The guy made a great icon. It was this cute penguin. And then when the company Took off, and and that game ended up like making like tens of millions of dollars. We reached out to the guy because we were like, you know, like the team was like my brother and I, but we're like, oh, you know, like that guy, the guy's kind of part of the team, you know. So like let's reach out to him. Like let's tell him that like his icon has like crushed it. And so over 100 million people, like over its lifetime, like over 100 million people played that game.

Saw the icon.

Yeah, and saw that.

This is racing penguin.

This is racing penguin.

Yeah.

And over 100 million people downloaded the game. So way more than that saw the icon there. So we reached out to the guy and it's like, hey, that icon that we bought from you, it's for this game and this game ripped. And the guy's like, ah, yeah, whatever guys, just stop making shit up. Do you want me to do another icon for you? It's like, no dude, we're serious. So after a while, we just—

Just, yeah, okay, we'll make our own. That's so crazy. And so tell me, when you were growing up, did you game at all? Or no?

I did.

Yeah? What were your growing up games?

Growing up, I loved games, but the reality is I loved puzzles. And so growing up, a big passion of mine was math, and I was doing math Olympiads and puzzles like that. I always enjoyed making games more than playing games. But then there's a few games that really marked my childhood, and I think that Biggest example is Age of Empires.

Oh, that was really good.

The Age of Empires was so good.

I liked the Age of Mythology too. That was really good too.

Yeah, you're younger, man. I like Age of Empires too. That game is just so well done. It has the lore and the strategy is super deep and the multiplayer components. It's a very complete game.

So did your parents, when you were gaming, did they think it would amount to anything productive or no?

No.

Were they upset that you were gaming or not even?

I love my parents. They've done so many correct things, but one thing that they did that it hurts me is I didn't have a computer. So growing up, my brother had a computer and I was not allowed to use the computer. So I could use the computer. Why?

I don't know, man.

It's like 2 boys, we're competitive. And then I had my things, he had his things. And then I was allowed to use the computer for an hour a day. And so I couldn't play a lot and I couldn't browse the internet a lot. I think I got my first computer when I was probably 14, 15.

And then at this point, what was your motivation? You were doing these Math Olympiads, you were doing well on them. What did you feel was your motivation to do all this? You just wanted to win, you wanted to make money, you wanted to get into a good college. What was going through your head, you think, at that time?

When I started the company or?

No, no, no. Back when you were 14, 15, kind of.

Yeah. So it was this weird dynamic because my dad comes from Argentina and there's a military government in Argentina that murdered one of his closest friends and then they tried to get him. So he had to flee the country and he moved to Brazil. And because he had this experience of a repressive government, he was just very distrusting of authority. And I don't know if it's true or not, but in his head, the US government had something to do with it, military governments in Argentina.

But we definitely learned that in school in Brazil, right?

That the US government was like, Given how important this is for my personal story, I feel like I should investigate this more, but I actually don't know. I don't know if the US had anything to do with it or not. But the way it affects me is my dad was kind of anti-capitalist.

Oh, wow. Yeah.

He was like, Americans, they're very capitalist and that's kind of evil. And then my mom was super poor. My mom, she came from the northeast of Brazil And her dad was murdered when she was 3 and she has 10 siblings. And so she was just a really rough childhood. And then I think in our household there was a little bit, there was some resentment towards rich people. And I think that's kind of common in Brazil.

Yeah, it was kind of similar in my household.

In what way?

There was a lot of anti-American kind of thing, anti, like, making money is not that important, and important is stability and studying and stuff like that. I feel like in the US, the parents are very pro-capitalism.

Yeah, and I think in Brazil, there's this thing where a lot of the people that have a lot of money, they are somehow, they're corrupt.

Yeah, there's this thing, if you made a lot of money, you probably did something wrong, right? That's what they tell you. You probably stole from someone, Screwed someone over.

So there was like there was like very much this mentality.

You know what my dad used to say? That if I worked too hard, then like my wife would cheat on me.

That's awesome. Everyone, you know. Yeah, exactly. Well, that's awesome. What a lesson. Yeah, and my my parents like they had this negative like they they used to make fun of like oh yeah these Americans like with all their money. It's like That sounds amazing. And so growing up, there's this weird thing that I always loved knowing the price of everything.

Oh, interesting.

I was just obsessed. Like, when I was a young kid, and I was very good with numbers. And so I would love to— I used to buy these car magazines. And these car magazines, they had all the car models.

And the prices per model.

The prices.

What was your car that you wanted when you're looking at this? Or you didn't really care?

I didn't really care. My thing is just I wanted to know the price of every single car. And it's weird because even today, I love knowing the price of things, even if it's not practical. So then my parents found it super funny and they would go to the neighbors and say, hey, ask the price of any car to my kid and he'll tell you. And I was able to tell because I memorized the entire thing. It was hundreds of cars. So yeah, so this is this weird thing where it's like, oh, I thought that businesses were— business was something that was interesting and I was curious about it, but somehow I was made feel wrong about being interested in those things. But then I think the other super important thing is there's a lot of violence where I grew up and there was never any violence committed against me, I was robbed at gunpoint, but nothing serious. But around me—

It's funny that in Brazil, this is nothing serious. When we grew up, you're like, I was robbed at gunpoint. Yeah, nothing that serious.

You were robbed at gunpoint?

Yeah, 100%. But in the US, you're like, I was robbed at gunpoint. What? Are you okay?

So my brother was kidnapped. My grandfather was murdered. And there was even more traumatizing experiences growing up. I remember this time I was probably like 8 or 9, and my neighbor— so we lived in this small street, there was a gated street, and then there was a robber that he broke in and he committed an act of violence against my neighbor that she never recovered from. And I can remember so vividly that night, it was kind of like a closed community. People spend time with each other. So I remember all the dads on the street, they got together. It was just weird. It was like they were doing this thing. I didn't know what was going on and they were all tense. They all got in their cars and got away. And I asked my mom, I was like, what's going on? And my mom told me, it was like, so all the males, they got together And they're looking for the person that was here, and they're gonna try to kill them.

Wow.

And I was like, what? And I was just so young, you know? Yeah. But like, that was like so scary to me.

And like, what do you think was the feeling that like that evoked to you that like, you know, stuck with you? How did it like impact you as like—

So that was an experience. And then like when my brother was kidnapped, it was another like scary experience. Like there's a few, there's like, there's a couple other experiences that were kind of like that. That made me feel like the world's a very violent place. And then I felt like, man, I don't want to be— one day I'm going to have a family and I just want to be shielded from all this. And I felt like, okay, I was very afraid of being poor. I was very afraid of being poor because I felt like, oh, if I'm poor, Then I'm gonna be vulnerable to all these things. So I felt like it was very important to be in control and in command of your life and control your surroundings. I felt like all these things were super important. And so I think that was a motivation. And then I wasn't able to articulate, I wish I had spent more time online and understood more how things worked, but I wasn't able to articulate, oh, I need to have a company and this and that. I knew I wanted to own my destiny.

And in that time, what was the path that you imagined of owning your destiny? What was the little story that you said, I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that? Did you plan ahead like that?

I wish I had done it better, but I remember the story of my grandmother. And my grandmother was like, she had 10 kids and she hadn't studied. But she was very hardworking and she gave her kids kind of a chance. And then the thing that she told her kids, including my mom, is like, hey, you got to study very hard. And the answer to everything is study. And then my mom, she went on to become a doctor and my life was radically better than her life. And then in my head it's like, okay.

Studying is the tool.

Yes. Studying is the tool. Studying is the key. And when you don't know the answer, the answer is always study.

Yeah.

Right?

So there's a whole generation for that, this was true, right? This seemed to be even in the US, studying was the way of social mobility, right? And still is, I guess, to some extent.

Yeah, I think so. I think there are other ways.

Yeah, for sure there are other ways. But I guess for me, I always heard that growing up too. It's like studying was the—

So I think the wolf, the world was a much less efficient place. Because I think now with the internet, you just go online and you probably ask ChatGPT, for example, if you're—

And you see a lot of stories of people who've done it in other ways, right? But growing up, you didn't have that. You just didn't know, right?

I didn't know anything. So I think the path was like, hey, you study hard, you go to a very good university, and from there you get a very good job. and you work really hard and one day God knows what. And then so then I got into this engineering program in Brazil and then I was like, oh, okay, I should go to a great school. And I was like, oh, I should go to the US. I should go study in the US because best schools in the world are in the US.

That was clear to you at that point?

It wasn't super clear. And then my dad was like, no, you shouldn't go to the US. I was like, what? I was like, oh, the US is too expensive. We don't have the money to pay for it. And plus you shouldn't do that. Maybe you go do your master's degree. And in his head he's like, oh, you got to do a PhD. You got to do a PhD. PhDs are great. And then college, you should be here, but then to do PhD, you go to the US. I was like, okay. But then I found out that the French government had this scholarship program. And so if you got into a good Brazilian university and you did really well, the French government would sponsor you, send you to this great school and pay for everything. So I got into a great engineering program in Brazil and I was ranked number 1 on that program. And that got me the scholarship to go to France.

And before, and I'm very curious about your French chapter, but before we go there, What was Victor like in high school and college? Were you popular? Were you good with girls? Were you very nerdy? Were you kind of in between? What was Victor? If you ask someone from your high school, how would they describe you?

I went to an academic high school and I was super lucky because that was an unlock to go to the very good, the best engineering program in Brazil. So in both of these places, it was nerdy places. So it was a place where being a nerd—

Was cool.

It wasn't cool, but it wasn't uncool.

Got it.

I was very rebellious. I was always very rebellious. And I think part of that comes from my dad. He always incentivizes fuck authority, governments suck, and companies suck. Companies suck. I did really well, but I didn't fit the mold of—

How did it manifest in high school, your rebellion?

What do you do?

Do you send out to the principal?

That's the part about it I'm ashamed. But the thing that I enjoyed a lot is when teachers made a mistake, I just loved correcting them so much and they would get pissed off. So I'd correct them in front of the class and And then they would not be happy. They'll not be happy. And then they would pick on me and then I would pick on them. And then I was always like the social person. So I loved to, if I knew the subject, I would love to talk to my friends during class. And then so my high school wanted to expel me because I got into, I had the small conflicts, never anything big, but I was just like, small complex of enough teachers. So they wanted to expel me. But this high school, they marketed themselves as the high school that got students. So in Brazil—

Into the best universities, right? If you go here, you're going to get into the best universities.

Yeah, but even more so in Brazil, there's a ranking. So the way you get to college is there's a test, you do the test and there's a ranking and it's very public. And the school's like, oh, every year the number 1 person that gets into university comes from our school, the number 1 in the rank. And we have 3 of the top 10 or something like that.

Yeah.

And then there was a very high likelihood that I was going to be on the top 10. And my brother was also in the same high school. There was also a very high likelihood that I would be on the top 10. And then when they wanted to expel me, I said, fine, if you wanna expel me, that's fine. So I got called to the principal's office and the principal was like, hey, you've been suspended for the 3rd time. And we have this rule that if you're suspended 3 times, you're gone. And I was like, oh, okay. I guess my brother and I will have to look for a new school 'cause it's kind of like a package deal.

Did your brother know about this?

No. And then, and then he's like, no, that's not what we mean. And I was like, okay, what do you mean? So in the end, I was like, okay, like if you do this one more time, you're gone. But that's kind of like how my brother ended up like saving me from that.

That's so funny, without knowing even.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's funny. So you're like kind of like super smart, rebellious, and kind of, you know, yeah, kind of like you're saying, like very anti-authority in high school. And, um, And all that. Did you date in high school? Were you good with girls?

I was. I didn't date a ton. I don't know. I was.

Compared to your friend group?

Yeah. And I had this long-term girlfriend in high school and she was super pretty and she was super smart. And she was kind of like Cool girl, and like yeah, I guess I guess like I was uh I was popular.

Yeah, yeah, it's so interesting, right? Like because like you kind of break the mold of so many profiles. You know, you usually have like the you know pure kind of like nerdy, super shy kid. You know that like is there, and then you have the kind of like you know super outgoing, you know kind of athlete, etc. You're kind of like in this like weird mix of both where you're like rebellious, but at the same time you're like super smart and got in, and like etc. It's like. So interesting, right?

Yeah, I guess it's also a product of being in these environments that were academic environments. I'm pretty sure that, I don't know, if I was in a rough school, I'll be this nerd that people will be making fun of.

Interesting. And so do you think that if you had kids and your kid was like you, you would act how?

I'd be like, yes, this guy's so good.

You really think so? If he's getting called to the principal many times and I guess growing up, limits were not super well—

I didn't understand the value of limits. And I think my parents, they were just, especially my dad, he was obsessed with this concept of freedom and people gotta be free.

It's like military government in Argentina. Exactly. That makes sense. Yeah.

But so I think what I would do differently is like, oh, rules and structure, they're there to help you.

Mm-hmm.

So I'll try to explain that to my kids. And my parents, in some ways, I'll get called to the principal's office and my dad is just like, I'm just not going. You guys do whatever you want. I'm not going. And then my mom, she would go and she would defend me. So for example, if I corrected a teacher in front of the class, and the teacher got really mad and then started yelling at me, my mom would say, but he was right. So I think I wouldn't do that. I would be like, hey man, think about this. There's the school, the school got to work because there's all these kids and we need rules for everyone to learn well together. So I'll try to approach it from that perspective. But I guess I'd find it kind of funny.

Where was your brother in all of this? How did your relationship with him— because you guys are very close in age, right? Like 2 years difference?

2 years apart.

And he's also super smart, but you guys are very different.

Yeah. So yeah, he's probably smarter than I am, but I'm harder working, hardworking. So yeah.

So it compensates a little bit. Yeah.

And we're extremely competitive, right?

You were super competitive growing up with him?

Very competitive.

So you wanted to be like, if he was second, you wanted to be first?

Exactly.

Exactly. Yeah. Interesting. I mean, he went to France first, right?

He did.

Did that inspire you somehow or no? You think it was like—

Yeah, that did for sure. So when he got into college, he found out about this program and I was like, oh, that's the thing I'm going to do. And I was still 2 years away from college and I was like, oh, okay, so I'm going to go to this college and I'm going to do this program.

And was it a program that you wanted to do because you actually wanted to go to study in France or was it just really hard to get selected for it? So it seemed like the most achieving thing you could do at that time.

I wanted to go to the Best college I could, and like I wanted to. I wanted to see the world. Like I was. I was like, hey, Brazil is just. There's not. What else is out there?

Right? Yeah.

I think at some point, like my my first choice would be, hey, like I should go to the U.S. But then I was like, okay, there's this money thing. So I was like, okay, this is the best thing that I can do that will allow me to go out of the out of the country. And then there was also this thing where my dad was like, yeah, schools in France are so much better than in the U.S.

Yeah. And how was it? You got there and now you've been in Brazil your whole life, right? You speak no French, right?

No French.

Which is crazy to think about. And the classes were in French?

All in French.

How the fuck did you manage?

Oh, that was so hard. That was so hard. Yeah. And in France, they're very into math and math is very, very advanced. So studying Math and French was really hard.

Would you just lock yourself in your room and study really hard?

The program that the government does is very well done. So they send you 3 months in advance. You're living with a French family and you're studying French the whole day.

Were you rebellious of the French family?

No, I love them. They're awesome. They're really great. So I learned a little bit. So I learned enough and then math and physics. So it was basically math and physics. So there's not a lot of text. It's just formulas. Yeah. But it was just really hard. The first 6 months were just incredibly hard because it's like my identity was like, hey, I'm the smart kid. That's why I got into places. And then people was like, oh, how can you do this? And then I got there and then I was worse than most of the French students because I just wasn't prepared for that. And I remember it was the only time in my life where I felt discriminated against.

Huh.

And the French system is very competitive and for these top schools, there's very few spots. And so students, before they go to college, they go to these prep schools where they kill themselves. They study very, very hard. And then once they get in, there's 20% of the spots are reserved for international students. And the French students, they really resented the international students because they're like, you're being paid by my government, my taxes.

My taxes.

And we have fewer spots because you guys are here and we do better in class than you guys.

So why does it even make any sense?

And I think the French are not known for being the most welcoming.

Yes.

So I remember I was like, oh, my identity was like, I'm a smart kid. And first semester I'm there, I'm doing okay, but I'm not doing great. And then I remember I had this friend and I came to him one day, I was like, dude, I don't know what's going on. I'm not doing Wow, I feel like I'm stupid. And then he turns to me, he's like, yeah, it's because you are. And he wasn't joking. I was like, really? Yeah. And so there's this thing where they felt like a lot of people felt like, oh yeah, this guy's just not as smart. But I think it was this extra motivation to study really hard and do really well.

And at this point in time, did you already know kind of what the workplace, what starting a company might be, what the best job, it's still very academic.

No, so academic. And the French school system has wonderful things. You go very deep in math, but it's not practical at all. It's just so theoretical. And that's probably why there's way fewer companies being started in France because it's like, okay, go study math, go study pure math. So I was spending all my time saying, okay, I got to be better at this and I need to beat these other students. So I wasn't spending time learning about businesses, learning about all the stuff that would end up being more important in my life. And then everything changed when there was this one lecture and there was this one entrepreneur that he had been to. I went to this school called Central Paris Engineering School. And this guy had gone there and he had started this company called Business Objects. He sold the company for like €5 billion.

Oh, wow.

Yeah. And so it was the first time I was in the same room as an entrepreneur. And he gave this talk and the part that's most memorable to me is not the really smart things that he said, It's the dumb things that he said. Because in my mind it's like, oh, some of them I hadn't really thought about how companies are started. And in my mind it's like, oh, companies are these things that kind of exist. And then you see the guy and it's like he's a human being and yeah, he's super smart and says a bunch of smart things, but then he says some things that are just like—

Not that smart.

Not that smart.

Do you remember anything that he said that wasn't that smart?

No, I don't remember. I remember one thing that he said that was so gracious. He's like, not long ago I was sitting in the same chairs that you guys are sitting and I did this thing and so can you. And that was profound.

Yeah. For the first time someone's saying, hey, this is possible, right?

Yeah. It's like this guy is sitting like, hey, you can do it. I think the entire college was— the college was very small, but it was like, I think probably like 300 people watching the lecture. But that was profound.

In that moment you're like, hey, this is like really changing me.

Yeah. And then I was like, you know, the cool thing is to start a company.

Did you ever talk to this guy or reach out to him?

It's so funny 'cause I told this story to my partner Peter and turns out that Peter's super good friends with this guy.

Really?

Yeah. You should reach out to him. And he lives like a few blocks from where I live.

Here?

Yeah, in Atherton.

That's crazy.

It is crazy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I should reach out and I should tell him, He changed my life.

Because think of like, imagine if someone did that to you, like how rewarding that would be, right? To feel that you were like, one thing that you did kind of randomly, probably someone just invited a guy, hey, come speak at this college. Like, okay, yeah, why not? And he inspired someone to build so much. Yeah.

And that kind of became like the definition of success for me.

So that's when entrepreneurship became like, okay, this is like what's cool.

I think if I had to pick one moment, that would be the moment.

Makes sense.

And I remember as I progressively started doing better and better in college, but every time I felt I was very competitive and every time I felt like the other kids, they didn't admire me because there was not much to be admired. I was like, one day they're going to invite me to give a lecture here and then I'm going to show them. It's going to take 20 years.

It's so funny how this chip on shoulder is That's so common among entrepreneurs, right? Of wanting to prove something or get out of something, because you need that extra motivation.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you started going better in France and you graduated and you did well. And then at this point, did you have a path you wanted to go through or no? It was still like—

It was still kind of fuzzy. It's like, okay, I wanna start a company. And then I kind of started being more aware of this.

And you went to travel for a while, right? When was that?

No, it's just in college. Like in the summers? Yeah, there's a couple summers.

What's the craziest thing you did traveling?

So my best friend in college was this Indian guy and he always told me about how India was amazing. So for one summer I went to India and I was going all over India and then I was there with my brother and we rented these motorcycles and there was this tiny road that crossed from India to China. And there's a lot of conflicts between India and China. There's this Kashmir, this region that is— there's a dispute where exactly the lines are. And so when we rented the motorcycles, the place that rented it, they said, hey, you guys can go anywhere except for this Little road here because like that's controlled by the military, and of course that's where you want to go.

And I can't go there. That's where I want to go.

Exactly. And then a really cool thing: highest altitude that you can do, can go on a road.

Oh wow!

It kind of crosses the Himalayas, right? Or at least like that. There's a big sign that says that there. And and so that was super cool. And and then. So there was this checkpoint. And so my brother and I, we loved India 'cause it felt—

And your brother was with you?

Yeah. And India felt a little bit like Brazil. And you have to negotiate with things.

Like the haggling.

And people don't really follow the rules. So we're going up this mountain and I was like, hey, let's just see how far can we go? And there was this military checkpoints, and then there's like, oh, like, okay, you can't come through here. And we'll tell the guards, no, no, like, we have this special authorization from the government. And then people's like, oh, okay, if you have the authorization, go.

And they're crazy. Yeah, that's so crazy. Okay, so then where did you go after that?

So like, let's say you graduated from Paris and yeah, and then so the following summer. I was just so fascinated by India that I went back and I was curious about the culture. So I lived in the following year, I went back and I lived in a temple for a month.

What?

Yeah. So just, I was like, hey, I want to learn how to meditate. And then I was vegetarian for a month and I was just 5 hours of meditation and yoga.

Do you think it really changed you that month?

I think so. I think all these experiences, especially when you're that young, I think all these experiences start composing who you are.

It does seem like spending a month in India meditating seems like this transformative experience. I'm curious, was it all that or was it like, it was cool, but not that transformative?

I think it is transformational, but I think it's in a set of ways. I think it's just spending a ton of time Especially when you're— so the month on the temple, I did it right when I finished college. So I finished college and then I got a job and then there was this period between starting the job and college and I was just there for a month and you're reflecting. And I think when you eliminate all the distractions of the day-to-day, you really get in touch of, hey, But who are you when there's no one else around and when there's no demands on your time? And I don't think I'll ever be in a situation like that again where, hey, I'm here for a month, I have absolutely nothing to do, no one will call me, no one will get in touch, and you can just be there and Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So wow, so you went to India for a month, came back, and then real life started, right? Like you graduate, you're an adult now. What do you do?

So my last year of college, I was already like, okay, it's super clear to me. Like the coolest thing that someone can do is start a company. Like that is the coolest thing. And you know, so when I started college in Brazil, I was like, I was actually studying engineering and psychology because it was kind of like passions that I had in my life were like engineering and psychology. And I was like, okay, I knew it had to be something digital and I like games, but we were like, okay, I'm going to start a company and I'm going to compete with Nintendo. That sounds dumb. Why would someone play my games and not Nintendo's games or Electronic Arts? Again, I had no friends that had ever started a company. I had no idea how to do it. And I think it's a mixture of I was just less savvy and I think there was also less material online, so I just really didn't know. But intuitively it's like, okay, I don't know what's the path to do it. But if you're in engineering school, Then what everyone's saying is like, oh, if you're smart, you go work for a bank. That's what you do. And to me, that's a lesson on how susceptible we are to our environments because whatever is cool in the place that you are, you end up doing that. And so I was like, okay, I went to work for a bank. So I was a credit trader, credit derivatives trader for JP Morgan in London. For a year. But getting like, once I got there, I was like, it was super clear to me. I was like, oh man, like this can't be my life. I was like, oh.

Did it pay well or no?

There's a path.

There's a path to pay well.

Yeah, there's a path. I got—

Did you know all the salaries that you would make at every point in time the same way you knew how things cost?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. These big banks, JP Morgan, they're a lesson in HR because their programs are just so well done. So I did a summer internship. On the summer internship, you rotate between 6—

Departments.

Yeah, 6 different departments. And I knew I wanted to do trading. And so I appreciated some things about the bank because I always loved talking about money and in my household, that was kind of a Taboo.

Taboo. I remember we bonded over that when we met because it's a very taboo topic and you don't have a lot of people talk about it.

Yeah. So when I was in these rotations, I would ask, I would go to the head of the desk. I was like, hey, what was last year's P&L? And they appreciated it. It's like, yeah, man, you're an intern. You want to know how this business did last year? So I went to all these different desks. And they all liked me. So I had 6 offers and then I picked the one that I think it was either the one that had the highest P&L or the second highest because I think credit is very cool. I think the highest was rates, but that was kind of government and I was like, oh, it's less interesting. And then credit is like, oh, okay, these guys did great. And then you learn about companies and I think companies are the coolest thing and learning the credit of this company is like, I think, oh yeah, that's cool. So why don't I do that? And so I knew how well the desk had done and I knew that your bonus was proportional to how well the desk did and I kind of knew what the path was. The subject was very interesting.

I think at this point, When you thought about, wow, if I do really well, how much was someone making 5 years later or something like that?

So that was a super interesting point in time. I think there was this guy that was 27 maybe, and I think he got a $5 million bonus because he was a star trader. And that guy was kind of my boss. So I was like, yeah, Okay.

This is what great looks like. Yeah.

I was like, yeah, this is what great looks like.

You were like 22.

I was, yeah, 22. And the credit trading is very interesting. It's like that activity looks a little bit like a video game. You have all these numbers and it just—

It's like the movies.

Yeah. But then there's the underlying thing, which is there's all these companies and you need to understand the companies and derivatives are very, they're very interesting because there's a lot of math that goes into it. And then if you're good in math, you start having all these great intuitions. So I was like, this is cool. You learn about companies, you do this thing that is very competitive. There's a score every day and you can beat other people. There's all these game elements to it. But then the thing that was always important to me was this, this is gonna sound lame, but this human connection.

Mm-hmm.

That is something that always mattered a lot to me. And I think that's something that I miss a lot about Brazil actually, 'cause I think Brazil and the US, they're very different. And the biggest difference is Brazilians are way more communal and it's like, okay, the notion of the individuals is very different from the US. You're always optimizing for a small group and It can be your family.

Like the men of your little community who went to try to kill the other guy who—

Yeah, exactly. That's pretty extreme, but I don't think you'd see something like that in the US. It's like, hey, imagine all your neighbors get together to— but to me it's like, okay, are these people— am I connected to these people? And the answer is no. I'm not connected to these people and these people have no interest in connecting with me. So that was one thing. The other thing is big companies, they need a lot of structure. And so your career is going to develop over a very long time horizon. I was like, oh man, it just felt too slow. There was the politics and there's another thing which was you want to be proud of your work. You want to feel like, okay, I'm doing something that is contributing. I think especially coming from Brazil and moving to a developed country, it's like, man, a lot of people, I think people that were born here in the Bay Area, I think they kind of take for granted that The world is just like this amazing place. But civilization makes places great, but places are not great naturally. Naturally, places suck. And the way places become great is for a lot of people contributing, right? So there was a part of me that was like, oh, I want to make sure that whatever I'm doing, is making the place better.

The world a better place is cliché, but yes, the feeling is the same.

It's like, hey, there's places in the world that suck. The places are amazing. I want to be the place that is amazing and I want to contribute for the place to be even more amazing. And I think if you're working in capital markets, I think capital markets are super important, but it's like the contribution that you're having is just so indirect. But I think especially when you're 22, it's very hard for you to have an intuition. It's like, okay, you spend the entire day trading and then there's a number at the end of the day of how much money you made or lost. And it's okay, do you actually contribute to something? It's just very indirect. So I was like, hey, I wanted to do something that was more tangible. And I had this thing like, hey, if I do a company, there's a product and people use the product.

Yeah, it's kind of like the bowels of capitalism versus the actual product, right? The capital markets, they're extremely important, but they're kind of in the—

Yeah.

The background there.

Yeah. They're truly important, but a lot of times you're in the bowels, but it's so indirect that sometimes you may be contributing or may not be contributing. So for example—

Maybe hurting sometimes.

Exactly. Imagine you have a fund that is like a patent troll. Are you contributing to capitalism or are you just sucking on capitalism?

Or just extorting it.

Yeah, exactly. So I was like, okay, I wasn't super happy with the connection piece and I wasn't super happy with what's the tangible result of my work. And then I was still thinking the coolest thing that someone can do is start a company. So I was like, hey, I'm going to start this company. And then the app stores were taking off. So this is 2010, the app stores were taking off.

Did you have an iPhone?

I didn't.

You didn't?

I didn't. It's so dumb because I didn't have— so before joining the bank, I didn't have money. I was living on the government allowance. I guess the government allowance wasn't bad. It was like €1,000, €1,100 a month. And I guess if I had saved up, I could have bought an iPhone with that money. But I was just like, I don't know, just so frugal, man. And then the bank gave us BlackBerrys. I was like, okay, fine, I have a BlackBerry. So I was like, okay, App Store.

But you saw that happening even without having an iPhone, which is crazy.

Yeah.

How?

I think in 2010, the App Store was like what AI is today.

It was just like obvious kind of thing.

I think it was obvious that it's going to be important. Like how and what format and like how, what's the best way to like, that wasn't obvious, but it was obvious like, okay, mobile phones, It's gonna be very important. People walking around with computers in their pockets, it's super important.

Yeah.

And then I was like, I love games. I don't think I can compete with Nintendo, but mobile games, mobile games, I think it's gonna be a thing. And then there was this aspect that was, you know what, if it doesn't work, fine, it doesn't matter. So I called my brother and said, hey, let's just make mobile games.

Did you have other ideas or that was kind of the main thing?

We had other ideas.

What was the close second?

So there was 2 close seconds. One was make an app for traffic, kind of like what Waze ended up doing. And I wasn't like, I'm a software engineer, but the reality is I wasn't deep in software engineering.

Because you graduated in mechanical engineering, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I could code, but I wasn't a great coder. But I had a couple friends that were good coders and then I told them, hey, I want to make this, I want to make kind of like a Google Maps that has the traffic in there so that people know what's the best route. And then I talked to these friends like, hey, how long do you think it'll take? And this friend of mine said, oh, this is really hard and this is what you want to do. And I think I think for you to build this app, it's gonna take you a year. And it's like my brother and I, it's like, hey, the two of us. They're like, oh shit. So okay, so that felt like, okay, it's kind of too complicated. And that was more like, hey, this feels like a business opportunity, but it wasn't like, oh man, imagine how cool would it be? And the game thing was like, man, imagine how cool would it be?

Yeah.

But it was like, oh, if we're being honest, we don't know if it's a good business idea or not, but it would be so cool. And this is the thing that we want to do.

So you didn't know if it was going to be a good business? You hadn't studied up?

Well, as much as you can.

It wasn't a market yet, right?

It wasn't a market.

You were just starting.

Yeah, it was just starting. So my brother and I, we had this really important sit-down before he quit his job and we talked. I was like, hey, let's start to evaluate what's the chance? What do you think is the chance that this business is going to be successful? And what do you think is the chance that we're going to fail? And a year from now, we'll come back crawling to our bosses asking for our jobs back. And he said, I think there's a 75% chance this will fail. I was like, yeah, okay, I can live with that because there's this 25% chance that we'll get to make games for a living.

Yeah.

Right? So that's why we ended up doing it.

You know, one of the things that like your story makes me think about a lot is, you know, obviously looking through, you were like, you know, extremely hardworking, extremely smart, et cetera. But then when it worked, you said the first year you guys did $6 million in profit or something like that, right? Do you think that would be possible done like 3 years later or 4 years later?

No way.

Like how much timing of like picking the right tailwinds in the right markets, right? Like really. Matter, right?

I mean, there's people that made— I think if we started 3 years later, I think we would've done well, but I think it would've taken a lot longer because the games that were successful, they're just more sophisticated, right? So in 2010, when we started looking at the market, man, There was this platform. There's all these consumers that wanted games, and no one was doing it. No one was doing high-quality free games. There weren't any. The biggest game in the world was Angry Birds, and they were charging like a dollar, a dollar per download. So I think there's a lot of similarities with AI right now. It's like people love ChatGPT, And there's all these use cases that people just are dying to, they're dying to have something, but the reality is no one created these experiences yet. So I think right now and today you hear the stories about this influencer that just plugged in a ChatGPT version to create a chat that is branded with her name. It's like, hey, talk to me. And just some dumb prompt engineering and she's making $100,000 a month.

That was kind of your guys' experience, right?

Yeah, that was exactly, that was our experience. So I think if I'd started a few years later, it would've been slower, it would be harder.

Yeah, because you didn't have that kind of latent demand and no supply. And then so how is it, I remember you told me the story that Wasn't the first month you guys made a couple hundred grand or something like that?

No, it took a few months. So the first game we did failed. And then the second game we did, we were literally working over 100 hours a week. So the first 6 months of the company, I think first year of the company, I worked every single day, every single day.

Saturday, Sunday, Christmas, New Year's.

Christmas, New Year's, my birthday, every single day.

And did you feel like, did you do that because you just really wanted to do that or do you feel that it was required? What was driving that?

So I think it was a mix of we're just super excited. I love this feeling of like, hey, this secret hidden in plain sight. Because as we started studying the App Store more, we started seeing cases of these apps that took off and it was like, oh, we can make something that is better than this. So our thing's going to take off. So this is like this, oh my God, this is such an amazing opportunity. I can't believe this opportunity exists. So I think there was that. There was also the fact that I quit my job at JP Morgan and then I moved back to Brazil and because we couldn't raise money, I had to move back to my parents' place. And then everyone I knew thought I was a loser and people asked me, oh, Victor, what are you doing now? I was like, oh, I'm gonna start a company. I was like, oh cool, what are you gonna do?

Good luck, right?

And startups weren't a thing in Brazil. And it's like, hey, what are you going to do? Oh, I'm going to make games for mobile phones. People looked at me like—

Who plays games on mobile phones?

It's like, oh, you mean that Snake game? You can't believe how many times I heard people ask me, so you're making that Snake game?

I heard from Nokia. Yeah.

And then I was like, no, smartphones, all that. So there's this intense pressure of, I don't know if I'm going to succeed or not. Everyone thinks I'm a failure. And there's this thing of trying to prove to the world, no, I'm right. Mobile games is a great opportunity. And my brother and I, we're capable. We can make a company. We can make products that people like. And then It's just like making games is just really fun. It was like, we're like, hey, this is way more fun than college, way more fun than working at the bank. So I think it was a combination of all that. So there was no sense of like, oh, I have to do this thing. But there was this thing I was like, hey, I really want to do this thing.

Yeah. So when did it take off? What was the first thing that worked?

So the second game, the second game that we launched, we decided to launch it for free.

And this was Racing Penguins already?

This is Racing Penguins, yeah. So we spent, I think this was month 4 probably, and it was a very well done game. I think first game was 2 weeks and then Racing Penguins took 3 months. And that game we knew was a great game. We gave it to our friends to play, everyone loved it. And we felt that there wasn't a game of that quality that was free. And then we launched it for free.

Was there a similar paid game that you guys kind of inspired?

There's a lot of our initial strategy was seeing like, hey, what are the things that are working on paid?

Yeah, which is really smart. Yeah.

And then we do things that are inspired.

For free.

Yeah. But the reality is we didn't see freemium coming. We're just like, hey, we just want people to play our game. And then right now people don't play our games, so that's a huge problem. And then if people play our games but we can't make money, that's still a problem, but that's a smaller problem. So let's just launch it for free. So we launched it for free and that game took off. That game really took off. And then we were making no money because the game was free. But then a week later we introduced ads. And then we started making money. And then I think we were making a few thousands of dollars a day, which—

Was infinite money in Brazil, right?

Infinite money. Infinite money. But then the real unlock is, I think a couple weeks later, we started introducing in-app purchases. And then it's like, okay, this is gonna be a big business. Well, at the time, we thought, okay, this is going to work. And then we just couldn't believe, we couldn't believe, hey, people are downloading this game and we have revenue, we have customers. And then we used that to hire a better team and with that make better games. And that was the loop for 9 years. And so for 9 years, we made all these games that collectively made over a billion dollars, well over a billion dollars in revenue.

That's insane. And what was the feeling when you got the first, I don't know, $100 grand or something like that? What did you do with it? What did it feel like? Would you tear your pants? How did it feel?

That's crazy.

Because I think before, for you to accumulate $100 grand was so long. You had to save up for so much, right?

Yeah, I think in 6 months we had saved up more money than our parents had in their entire lives.

That's crazy.

Yeah. And it was just this very surreal feeling of like, oh, you have this theory in your head. It's like, hey, if I do this thing, I'm going to make a company. And it was very theoretical. It's like, hey, mobile phones, they're going to be a thing and then people are going to Play games on their phones, and and they should play free games, and you should make games free, and then like sell some stuff in it. It sounds like a great theory, but then it works in practice, and you're like, fuck, you know? And I remember, like my parents, like they're not not very tech savvy, and like I remember, like my my brother and I were like explaining to our parents, like hey, so like here's here's what we did. We went on the internet.

And then like we learned how to make a game on like YouTube, on YouTube.

And then like we went on the, on the Apple website and like we wrote this game and we uploaded the game and now we have a company and, and, and, and it's a real company, right? That was like very cool.

Yeah, it's crazy. Didn't you buy your parents a car like a really cool—

Yeah, that was the first thing we did, like the first thing. So my dad My dad loves cars, but he had never bought a nice car. And then with the first money that we got from the company, we bought our dad a car.

I remember when you told me this, you're like, you're a better son than I am. I bought a huge MacBook, all this stuff when I got my first money.

Yeah.

That's amazing.

Yeah. And then there's this weird thing. I read somewhere that money changes you. So for the first year that the company worked, I read someone was like, hey, if you make money, you shouldn't spend it right away. So for the first year I spent 1%.

I missed that class.

You obviously missed that class. But I spent 1% of the money that we dividend out of the company.

Oh, wow.

Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah.

That's crazy. And then you started this company and I imagine in the beginning it probably felt like you hired a couple of people and friends, right? It didn't feel like a real company, right? For a little while. When did it start feeling like, okay, this is like a corporation now?

Oh God, corporation. Hopefully never.

At some point it starts feeling like, okay, there's like, I don't know everyone in the company and So the beginning was, man, the beginning was so fun. Yeah.

And so we hired a lot of our friends from Math Olympiad and people, there's a bunch of people that thought we were smart and wanted to work with us. And that was great. And I think, I don't know, maybe like 2, 3 years in, I think we're at 100 people. And then when you're at 100 people, it's weird. I think the weird feeling is I used to interview almost everyone that we hired, but then it started happening, like, okay, maybe I was on a trip and then we hired someone and then I didn't interview that person. And then you're walking around in the halls and you see someone, it's like, oh, who's that person? And it's the weirdest feeling because you start a company and it's like everyone that you know so well, Especially because we had all these programs for people to spend all their time together. So it really felt like it was a very tight group.

The opposite of remote.

Opposite.

Yeah.

And so when you see someone that you haven't seen that face before, it's almost like you're walking in your house and there's a person walking in your house and it's like, who's this person? What is this person doing here?

Yeah, I totally relate to the feeling. It's a very unique moment in time.

Yeah.

What was happening around your life at this point? Did you just not have any social life? Did you have a girlfriend? Did anyone know? Because you had this bad VC experience, you were super secretive. Who knew about this?

There was no life beyond the company. And we had this theory for the company that is like, hey, we want the company to be a one-stop shop.

I remember this.

It's the place that you come to learn. It's the place that you come to do great work, to make friends, to make money.

Eat.

Eat.

Right.

So we had this program that if you lived on a half-mile radius of the office, we would pay for your rent and then we would serve dinner. So every night at 8:00 PM, we would serve dinner, including weekends. And we would hire people from different states in Brazil and would move them, everyone to São Paulo. A lot of them would get apartments, they would share apartments. This is pretty tight community that people, and of course these young people, they don't want to cook. So we all spend all of our time together and my brother and I were there 24/7. So I had no girlfriend and all of my friends were from the company and I was spending literally Like for the first few years, like zero time. The only people that I saw outside the company were my parents. No one knew of the success and we're like low profile and I liked it.

And it's this crazy thing where I think there's very few companies in Brazil. I can only think of another one that made money in US dollars but spent money in reais, which was like a very nice feature.

Yeah.

Of what's the other one?

Hotmart. Oh yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the only 2 that I can think of that do this. And I made it very, very high margin, which is very different than the average startup founder in Silicon Valley where to get to profitability, it's like 11 years in, 12 years in. You guys are like year 1. Do you think that shaped how you think about business?

Well, for us doing a startup that would take 11 years to be profitable wasn't a choice. When we decided to start the company, we decided to do it in Brazil and there was no venture capital in Brazil. And for all its many, many flaws, venture capital allows people to make companies that don't make money for a very long time.

Yeah. Let's go through the founder journey a little bit. What do you think now looking back through the journey, We'll get to your investor phase in a bit, but what are the things that are really cool about being a founder and a CEO? And what are the things that kind of suck?

Oh man, in general, being a founder is amazing. It's the coolest experience that I had in my life for sure. And it's probably true for you as well.

Oh yeah, 100%.

And I think the coolest thing is it's like, hey, you start with an idea and you have this theory, like a theory. Oh, okay, if I do this thing, It's gonna happen. And then in my case, it's like people want to play free games on their phones. And then you see it happening, Duolingo. And like, it's the coolest thing is like, you know, at one moment in time, 50% of the iPhones in Brazil had our game Racing Penguin, right?

Oh wow.

Yeah. And then like you're talking to people and people ask you like, oh, what do you do? It's like, oh, like show me your phone. Like I do this. It's very cool. It's like, oh, I love this game. This thing like, hey, you make products that people love and then people tell you about it. They post comments and so that part is amazing. And so I think both the idea that you can imagine something and then that thing can exist and then that real people use it and they derive joy from using it. So that whole loop is like, It's so awesome. You know, it's like you feel like, oh shit, like I'm I'm I'm part of this. You know, like I'm part of like I think civilization is I think civilization is a miracle. Like the fact that like people they come together and and like living in a civilized society is like just so radically better than like living in the jungle. And the idea that people come together and make life so amazing, and like you feel like you're a part of it, like you're an important part of it. It's just people like you that create products and offer these products out. So I think that part is awesome. I think the part that creating a team, it's like, and when you're a founder, you get to decide what the culture is and like, hey, here's the stuff that we believe in and then we want to get people that believe in the same things. And there's a team and it's your team. So this idea that, okay, you have this goal, we want people to have fun, we wanna make games that will allow people to have fun. And there's all these people that wanna do the same thing and you all get together and you decide these rules of interaction and then people are happy doing it and people are—

And you're happy doing it, right?

You're very happy doing it.

You kind of built what you would love to work for.

Exactly. It feels like Feels like this own little country, you know?

Yeah.

So I think that part is amazing. So this is you feel this is the progress of society happens like this, and you're part of it. And then like the part that is not cool is it's just really hard, and it's really hard. It takes a really long time. And the stress is real.

For, you know, and obviously we talked about this a bunch, but for those who like haven't founded a company yet, like describe like what is it, what's the kind of stress? 'Cause like from the outside you look and it's like, dude, like you're rich, you're successful, you pick your team, like what can possibly stress you? You know, like I remember like, so describe like what was that feeling like?

So you look back at a company, if you build a company and the company works, you look back and it's like, oh my God, this is so cool. And it feels like this amazing straight line of progress. But my experience is it always feels like everything is going wrong. Always. The entire time it's like, okay, it's going wrong, it's going wrong. There's this problem, there's this problem, there's this problem. You spend your time with problems.

Give an example. What is something? Just to make it like—

It's like, oh, this killed me. So we launched the game on Android, and then we launched the game on iOS, and there was a bug. And so Racing Penguin, our first game, there was a bug, and you downloaded the game and you opened it and the game crashed. So the game was unplayable. And the problem with that is the way the algorithms worked at Apple is like, okay, you launched the game and if you have a lot of downloads in the first minute, Then you get this flag of like, okay, this is a hot app. And then you get more exposure and then you get a lot more downloads. And then if you overcome this threshold of downloads, there's this reinforcing loop, right? But if you're crashing, you miss the loop and you go to the bottom. So the launch of a game is extremely important, right? So we had launched the Android version Android version crushed it. And then we launched the Apple version, and Apple at the time was a much bigger market. And then you're like, oh shit, there was a bug, and this bug destroyed the game, and maybe this game is not gonna be a hit because there was this bug. And we were thinking like, okay, we just doomed the company. Like, okay, the company's over, right?

And all these people that like left their jobs to come to work here.

At the time, it was just my brother and I. Okay. But still, it's like, hey, like we tried all these things and we had this shot of success.

Yeah, but we felt it was like right there and you screwed it.

Yeah, and like that's one example, but that happens all the time. And sometimes it's big, sometimes it's small. It's like, you know, like a constant warrior for us is like the servers would go down and like the game would be offline. And then if you're offline, you get negative ratings. So those things were super stressful. And then Apple— so then later we had a shooting game and then Apple sometimes would complain because, oh, this violence. And yeah, shooting games are a thing. People love shooting games.

Ever heard of Call of Duty?

Yeah, Call of Duty.

Counter-Strike.

Counter-Strike. And then there was like, threaten to take us offline. And I was like, man, You have a huge company that is running and the game sustains. So every single day, and then there's a competitor, the competitor launches. So you have a great game and then a competitor clones your game and launches it. And then it's like, oh my God, what's going to happen? Is this going to overtake my game? So on a typical day, there's 4 or 5 problems that you're solving. Some of them are real threats to the company. And on a typical day, nothing good happens because progress happens little by little, but problems happen really fast and the threat of problems, they're always there. So the day-to-day is like, we say, oh, building a company is fun, but the reality is it's type 2 fun. It's fun, It's kind of like after the fact, it's kind of like climbing a mountain, right? When you're climbing, it's mostly painful.

You remember it fondly later, but when you're going through it, it's pretty painful.

Yeah.

Did you feel it was like a roller coaster all the time? 'Cause I remember this day that, and you know me, I'm very optimistic, right?

Very.

Yeah, and I remember this one day where at the same day, in the morning, I was looking at Gulfstream website of my future private jet. I was like 18. Then later that day something shitty happened and I was looking at jobs to apply for jobs. Literally one day, the fluctuation. Something like that. Did you ever feel that?

Yes. So much. Especially when you're building on top of someone else's platform, in our case Apple and Google, they can change the rules of the game from one day to the next. So you're always—

Subject to their will.

Subject to their— and so for us, one thing that, so the rankings, Our games were always very well ranked, and that's how we got a lot of downloads. And the rules of the ranking are very opaque. So I was like, oh, are these people going to change something? And then it's going to affect your distribution.

With the benefit of hindsight now, you're looking over the company, the 12-year history. If you were to distill to a couple things that made it work early on, besides the obvious and hard work and great team and culture and all the stuff that requires any company, but just from the business perspective? How would you distill it?

So these things that you're saying, besides these things, I remember I was and I still am a student of business. I love studying businesses, understanding why they worked. And it's such a cliché, people saying, oh, it's all about the people. It's like great people, great culture, everything else works. And I was like, this is the most useless advice I've ever gotten. But to realize Those things are true, but they were just told in a way that didn't resonate with me. As I reflect back on, hey, what made it work? I think Wildlife, there's one thing that we got right in the beginning, which is people play free games on their phones. That was a good insight. But then I don't think we had a radically insightful strategy, but I think we had amazing execution. And what's downstream of that amazing execution? It's people and culture, but just being much more granular. It's like, oh, hire great people. Yeah, of course.

But I guess where did the great execution matter the most? Let's put it like that. Where were the places within the company where—

It's like 1,000 small details. And it's like, for example, if you think about games, It lists the 10 most successful games of all time. At least 8 of these games, they follow the same pattern, which is there was a game that was successful, but it was hard to access this game. And then someone else came in and made the same play pattern. It was much more easy to access. So for example, League of Legends. There was Dota. People had to buy the game, it was hard to get it. This was a mod. And then League of Legends came along and said, hey, we're going to make this game for free. And then it crushed, became one of the biggest games in history. So the history of games is a lot like that, but it's like you got to make a great product and it's all the smart details. Why is iPhone better than Android? It's all the small details. And then for us, It was basically product and distribution. And we were deep experts on how people discovered apps in the App Store. It's like, okay, what are the keywords that people type most? And then how does Apple, if you have a keyword that a lot of people have the same keyword, how does Apple rank them?

Almost like SEO for Apple.

We're very deep in SEO. We're very deep in product. But in the end it's just like it's people that care a lot and people that, hey, their entire life is that thing. So we did this thing. So this thing of like, hey, there's a bunch of really smart programs like this, for example, this thing where 70% of the company lived within a half-mile radius. That's crazy. I think that was a great intuition back then. And we had dinner every night, everyone together every night having dinner and all these young kids that loved games. And then we had this thing that we did, we called Game of the Week. And in the beginning was every single employee. So every Tuesday we had pizza night at the company and every single employee of the company, they had to go in front of the entire company and present for a minute what was the most fun game he had discovered that week. And if you think about it, it's like, okay, so every single employee had to play at least one new game and then tell us what was cool about that game. So there's a lot of learning that happened there, but also it was a cultural thing. It's like people that didn't like games, they left. People that didn't like to spend Tuesdays talking about games, at 9:00 PM, they left. And then you were left with people that were just really obsessed with what will games look like on mobile phones. And I think you get really smart people that really care about what they're doing and that want to spend all their time doing it. That explains a lot of the success because a lot of the success is like this games is a place where Crazy attention to detail matters a lot. And yeah, it's an unsatisfying answer, right? Because—

No, no, it's pretty satisfying.

It's really good.

Just trying to understand, again, I'll give an example, right? At Brex, the finance team mattered a lot. So spending a lot of time there makes a big difference in the company because we have these securitizations. So great execution matters there, right? I don't know how much it mattered at Wildlife. I imagine not as much as probably at Brex. given the different businesses, but on kind of SEO distribution and stuff at the App Store, that was incredibly important to invest a lot. So the essence of the question was a little bit more trying to understand what really mattered in building the business.

And it was for sure, it's just product and distribution. And it's like, hey, the details of the product and people that are obsessed with understanding what makes a game fun, And then obsessed with like, okay, how do we make something viral?

Right?

I think you look at these YouTubers nowadays. I think a lot of the great YouTubers, they understand, like they're experts on the YouTube algorithm.

Yeah.

And they're gonna say, hey, like, okay, my icon, what does my icon has to look like?

Okay, that's the thumbnail.

Yeah, the thumbnail. And they're like, okay, your completion, like the video completion matters a lot. So it's okay, the video completion matters a lot. So you got to make sure that you have the entire video you're talking about the surprise at the end. And so just being obsessed in the end, it's common sense with uncommon discipline.

Do you feel that your role models evolved over the 12 years you were at the company? Your early role models were different than your late role models or it stayed the same?

I think what changed is before I used to think that there was this heroes that they could never be wrong and none of what they said was wrong. And now I'm like, okay, you understand that these great entrepreneurs, they're genius in one domain. They're not genius all around. They have this narrow domain where they're genius. And they do this thing that works really well and you have to learn, okay, where do you take advice from each person? So to me, it went from being, okay, my first role model that I met in person was Giorgio Paolo. And yeah, he's incredible, but he's incredible at this one thing, but I should not take advice from him for something that he's not incredible at. So I think it just got more nuanced.

Obviously it's hard to talk about yourself in this way, but if you were to guess, maybe ask your brother what he would describe as the thing that you were a genius over just these last years, what do you think he would say?

I think what he would say is stepping out and understanding how the dynamics of the business will evolve, the dynamics of the market, The industry dynamics. The industry dynamics so that you can be clear on what matters. It's like, okay, given everything that is happening right now, what's likely to happen in the future? And what are the 2, 3 things that we should care about? And the rest is noise.

And what would you say about your brother?

I think my brother, He goes into like incredible depths of a game design. I think his, uh, his very like in the details, in the deepest of details. So just to give you an example, match tree games are very big. So some of the largest games in the world are match-3. Candy Crush, which is not from the outside, people think about Candy Crush, but there's like of the top 10 games, there's probably like 3 that are match-3. And then if you look at the top 50, there's like over 10 that are match-3. And from the outside, they all look the same, but there's some details that people, if people tell you, you're then able to see it. But if people don't tell you, you can't see it. And to give you an example, it's like, okay, we have this match-3 game, it's called Time Blast.

Time Blast.

So you play Time Blast and if you find 3 things together, you click it, it explodes. But if you find 6 things together, you create a power-up. And if you find 9 things together, you create a super power-up. And then if you have 2 power-ups together, you have a double superpower-up, like you have a double power-up. And then you have like 2 superpower-ups together, you have this double superpower-up. But then if you— He was playing our game and he's like, oh, if you match 9 pieces together, you get a superpower-up. And then if next to it you match 7 pieces together, You have a medium power-up, but then if you mix the super power-up with the medium power-up, on your next turn, it's easier to create the same combo. So that is the optimal strategy. And if you play just doing that, the game is unbalanced. And the problem—

you just noticed that.

I just noticed that.

Which is like so deep into the— Just so deep.

And it's like, you know, like I've been making games for 13 years and like, so we're playing this game, playing it a lot and it's not performing like it wasn't performing the way we wanted. And then he wasn't very involved in that game, but then he played it, like he played it for a day and then it's like, yeah, it's obvious. But this happens, this happens like when you care and there's just no teaching this. Like you just have to care so much. And I think a parallel with this is like horses. Like horses, they all look the same. You put a bunch of horses, they all look the same. But if you own a horse, you know, okay, this is my horse, and you're able to tell the difference. And it's because you just care so much and you notice all the details. The only way is you got to look at it for a lot of time and cared very much. And for him, he just loved game design. And over a decade obsessing over the details, these things just come out more naturally.

That's amazing. I think that's exactly right. And so let's talk now about kind of your transition to Benchmark. So I guess first tell a little bit the story of How you met Benchmark. You raised some money and then the story of how you decided to go from making games to making investments.

Yeah. So the first 9 years of the company were just my brother and I inventing games and then we made this game that a lot of people played and we're thinking, okay, what's next? We can continue for another 20 years doing that. But we wanted to, like, we wanted to evolve the model, and, and we thought about the gaming industry. It was an industry that did not honor, like, the game creators. If you think about, like, the book industry or the movie industry or, or, or the music industry, all these industries, they start in a certain way, but Eventually the companies become platforms for creators. So if a book publisher is a platform for writers, and you think about games, people create these amazing games, but these game designers, no one knows who they are and they get paid well, but they actually don't get paid nearly as much—

As the impact that they have.

Yeah, exactly. So if you think about the person that wrote Harry Potter, everyone knows who she is, she makes a billion dollars. But the person that created a game like Brawl Stars, for example, no one knows who the person is. The game generated a few billion dollars in revenue and he gets nowhere near 1% of that. And then it was like, okay, let's just Let's just rethink what a gaming company is with the creators at the center of it. And just let me make a platform for amazing game designers. So that was an idea that we had. And in order to do that, I was like, okay, so let's find all the best game designers in the world and let's help them start their own studios. And then we're going to do a profit share. And in order to do that, I had to move from Brazil. So I moved from Brazil to San Francisco and I wanted to be more plugged into the tech ecosystem. And so the company didn't need the money, but we wanted to work with people that knew how to create platforms and knew how to create a tech company. And so we met, I had informal conversations with a bunch of investors, never shared any numbers, but we were just kind of like, wanted to get to know people, see what each person had to offer. And then when I was having some of these informal conversations, I met this guy Peter Fenton, and he was just so radically more interesting than anyone else that I met. And the thing that struck me is like, hey, he was just so passionate about businesses, so passionate about understanding all the businesses that were created and what made them successful and what was the personality of the founders. And I just felt like, oh, if I spend time with this person. So the real thing that I felt is, man, had I met this guy sooner, my company would be a lot better because all these things that I missed in Brazil, I was like, hey, If you're isolated, you're trying to reinvent the wheel so much. And there's this person that knows how all these companies were created and knows the people. I was like, man, if only I had met this person when I was starting out, would've avoided so many mistakes, would've gone so much faster. So I was like, yeah, we want to work with him. And his model of investing is one where The Benchmark model is like, hey, each partner is supposed to make 1 or 2 deals a year and then you spend meaningful amount of time helping the entrepreneur be successful. I was like, yeah, I want this guy to be involved. I want him to help me build this company into everything it can be. So we raised some money from Benchmark and he joined our board and And then we built out this program. We set up all these studios around the world and they're producing games. And then I've talked about how Arthur and I were competitive growing up and that kind of manifested in the company as well. For a while we were co-CEOs and then we needed better governance and you know a thing or two about co-CEOs, right?

Yes.

And then I became solo CEO. And then after we had built the studios, part of me was like, okay, I love games, but I was curious about learning about other companies. I think the reason you and I met in the first place is because you were working on payments. I was like, oh, that's cool.

Interesting.

Yeah, I want to learn about payments. And then the reason we spent time together is like, oh, you're a talented guy. Yeah, I want to see where you're going. So I always had this curiosity, but over time I started feeling this more and more. I was like, hey, I love games, but I've dedicated 13 years of my life to games. And I started being more and more curious about other stuff and I started wanting to spend time learning other things. And then my brother was there and he was excited to be CEO of the company and he wanted to continue spending all of this time learning about games. And so at one point I was open with my board. I was like, hey guys, I'm thinking that I own the company, should be in a great place, but then I'm going to think about what's my next adventure. And then Peter was like, hey, have you thought about venture? And you should spend more time with the other Benchmark partners. And I— and as I spent more time, I was like, oh, like, it's so cool. You meet all these people and you learn about all these businesses. And then once or twice a year, it feels a little bit like falling in love. And it feels like when you and I met, it's like, shit, this guy is great. I want to spend time with him. I think this is going somewhere. I want to help it go somewhere. And I was like, yeah, I want to do this.

I know it feels very different, but describe a little bit how different it feels to be an investor versus an entrepreneur. Help me understand how it is to be in your place and being entrepreneur seat, investor seat, and how does it materially feel?

Yeah, it's so different. The underlying subject is still the same.

Your business.

Yeah, it's companies. And frankly, I think my passion is companies. I think companies are the best idea that humans ever had. I believe that so strongly. And to me, the biggest evidence of that is there are places in the world that are amazing to live in. We're here in the Bay Area. The Bay Area is so amazing. And there are places in the world that suck. It's just so bad living in these places. And the principal difference between these places is the good places have good companies and the bad places don't have good companies and everything else is downstream of that. But back to the difference between being an investor and an entrepreneur, it's like, okay, the subjects are still companies, but I guess the main difference is As an entrepreneur, you become as deep a specialist in one thing and you have one idea or have a few ideas, a small number of ideas, and it takes 10 years to play it out. And you're going very deep on that. As an investor, the thing that you get is breadth. So I take, I don't know, I take a couple pitches a day. And not always, but very frequently someone comes in and he tells you a business secret, and it's something that he worked— he works a long time to learn that thing, spent a couple years. He learned the secret, and that's cool. And you get—

That's a very good way to describe— that's a very interesting way to describe it, the cool part about it.

Yeah, it's the coolest part.

It's like books, right? Someone studied their whole life and then condensed it in this small The difference is like books, they're out there.

So people—

Yeah, this is a secret.

It's a secret.

Yeah.

Like no one knows. And sometimes like the secret is so profound that like the meeting ends. Like this happens, it probably happens like once a month. Someone tells something and I get this story so amazing. Like, you know, like I can't believe this person did this thing. And the secret is so profound that You know, like a lot of times I call my brother and it's like, man, there's this company that does this thing that is so cool. And he's always like, fuck, I live for this. So that is the part that I love most about the job is just learning things that I don't know how else you could learn them.

What sucks about it?

What's the worst thing about being a founder? So there's nothing that really sucks, but in comparison to starting a company, there's a few things that suck because there's a few things. So for being a founder, man, you build a product and people are playing with the products and you decide what the product does and what it looks. And then you see it out in the wild. And the thing that I always loved is you make the product in a certain way because you want people when they play with it to feel a certain way. And then you see people and they play it and they feel it. They feel the emotion that you designed them to feel. And that is amazing. It's like this beautiful product, people use it. So that is amazing. And the other thing is you have a group of people, your community, your executive team. It's like, hey, you're this professional sports team where People are so competent and bought into waking up every day, having this purpose in life. It's like, hey, we're going to conquer that hill. So this feeling of like, hey, we're in these trenches together. So I think these two things of being an entrepreneur, that's unbeatable. That's unbeatable. You don't have that as an investor. It's like you can You can give feedback on the product. A lot of times entrepreneurs choose to ignore it, which is their prerogative. And I think Benchmark does better than most at this because we're an equal partnership. So we're 5 equal partners. So there's a sense of team, but it's different. A lot of it is also A lot of the job is an individual sport, so there's less— it's not the same feeling as I had with my brother.

Community and team.

So I think, and I miss that part.

But is there— I can't imagine, is it similar to be an entrepreneur that is type 2 fun or it's kind of a little bit more type 1 fun?

I think this learning of ideas is very type 1 fun. I think this learning is like, I feel so lucky. There's a lot of days where you end the day and it's like, I feel so lucky to just learn these things, to meet the smart people that have worked so hard to earn this insight. And a lot of times they prepared the meeting. So it's like, hey, I have 1 hour with this guy. I want to make sure that I'm going to tell my story really well. And it's just like, you feel so lucky to be.

So if you're meeting someone that's graduating from college and you're giving them advice, they're thinking between going to do VC or starting a company, joining a company, or what do you advise them? What would say, I guess, the framework to think about it?

Doing VC out of college feels weird to me because the reality is It's very hard to help an entrepreneur because the way you're set up is you're investing in great founders. The founders are really smart. If you're doing your job right, you want to invest in people that are smarter than you are and they're singularly focused in one thing. They spend all their time on that problem. So the likelihood that you're going to come to him and say, hey, I'm going to have an idea that you haven't thought about, it is very unlikely. So you have less time on the business, you have less context, but there are ways you can help. And I don't think it's a coincidence that the majority of great companies that are created They raised venture capital and the majority of the great companies, they actually raised from great investors because great investors, they find a way to add value. But that comes from experience and that comes from having seen stuff that comes to having gone through things that the founder hasn't gone. So I think you and I, We spent a lot of, when you're in your first company and your second company, we spent a ton of time together and you knew a lot more than I did about payments, but I knew a lot more than you did about company building. And so I was able to help you because I had built a larger company than you had and I could tell, I was like, hey, when I did this thing, this is what went wrong. And through your journey and all the things that you're doing, I was like, hey, Yeah, when I went through something similar, this is what happened. But imagine when you were 16, imagine if I was like 14, I was like, how could I help you? How could I help your business if I hadn't done it before?

I guess how many of your partners were operators before?

One of my partners was a founder as well, and one operated for a little bit, and then 2 of them were always investors. And the reality is I think if someone is always an investor, they can help and they typically help in a different way, but I think they can help probably after 10 years. I think the first 10 years you're just learning. But I think a great investor that has been investing for 10 years, it's like this thing that I told you about the business secrets that takes your breath away.

Just heard enough of them.

If you've been investing for 10 years, you heard a lot of them.

You can pattern match.

You can pattern match and you can, as the company's going through something, it's like, hey, there's all these companies that went through similar things. And then if you've done well, you build networks of people. And a lot of how you can help is like, oh, you have a problem. I know exactly who you should talk to about this problem. But in any ways, I think the case for The case for an inexperienced investor that hasn't operated, I think it's a hard case to make. It's someone that has choices to raise from whoever they want. I think it's hard for you to raise from a person that hasn't operated and hasn't invested before. And the problem is venture, it's a power law. If you're not able to invest in the best people, then your returns are gonna— Mediocre. Worse than mediocre. So my advice is like, hey, if someone is really passionate about investing, I think, hey, join a hedge fund or join an investing house. And then there's a craft of investing, you learn it over time. But if you're passionate about venture, I'd say, hey, get your hands dirty for a little bit.

Go work at a company.

Yeah, go work for— starting a company, I think it's better. But even if you don't start a company, it's like, go work for a startup for a little bit and then work for a little bit and then maybe you join a firm where you gather some experience.

I imagine when you— I remember when you joined Benchmark, one of the things you told me that you thought was hard was that you're meeting all these amazing founders and you're like, oh fuck, I would hire a lot of these guys to work for a while. There's so many smart people starting companies, but you only get to pick 1 or 2 a year.

Yeah.

What are, in your view, kind of the most discerning qualities? What are the things that you look for that are the most important in your view to differentiate good from great? Because there's so many good, right? But you need to really pick the great if it's just one to do a year.

Great founders, I think they have these 2 opposing characteristics that are very hard to find in the same person, which is great founders, they tend to be very open-minded, but they tend to be very disagreeable as well. And you rarely see these 2 traits in the same person because if someone is very open-minded, You're talking to the person, it's like, oh, you have a new idea and it's like, oh, he wants to hear about it. He's open to it. And it's like, oh, it's so nice. It's very nice to talk to people that are open-minded. And then the disagreeable part is I think great founders, they almost like to disagree and they're for sure not bothered by, oh, okay, you have this opinion, I'm going to go against your opinion. And that doesn't bother me. At all. That thing, if you're just so comfortable disagreeing with someone, a lot of times that comes with being more close-minded. The people that really strike me as amazing entrepreneurs is like, oh, okay, I'm curious. I'm very curious. I really wanna understand what you're saying. And then I have no problem just letting you know that I believe in the opposite.

Dude, we could probably spend another many hours here, but we're kind of running up on time. So thank you so much for spending a couple hours here. I think we could have gone for longer. And, you know, I know you for 12 years, and I feel like I know you even more after this couple hours. So I appreciate you making the time to do this with us.

Thank you for having me.

Of course, man. Thank you. Thanks for listening to my conversation with Victor Lazarte. We'll be back next time with another look inside the minds of the biggest names in business. HD in HD is produced by me, Enrique Dubergas, in association with Pod People.