Orange is the new commerce.

Greetings listeners and welcome to another episode of The Ostrich Report. Hendrik, tell me, how's all done in your world?

Uh, down south here we have the summer. I feel like I'm in an echo chamber because I can't get my name— I can't change my name. I'm just I'm feeling Friday-ish and I'm really interested in today's conversation because honestly, this company and Temu and its growth outside of China basically just continues to boggle my mind. And when I do research about this company, it's like, what did I miss? It feels like— anyway, moving on. I'm good, Vinny. How are you, sir?

You don't have to jump that quickly. I'm getting the feeling you're Freaky Friday rather than Happy Friday. So I hope that you survive this because you're one of those people that you've a lot of interest in a lot of things and you get really enthusiastic about conversations like this. But I got to check in on you every now and again just to make sure the lights are still on. Thank you. But no, I'm good. I was at a CEO retreat this week. We had an amazing time. And it's something that I think we will talk about a little bit more, but the ability to talk freely, hear what's on the minds of CEOs is really interesting as well, and to see where they need to evolve with. And that's kind of where I spent my time, was helping them get into that mindset of change and change being a constant. I think the phrase that resonated with me is from Kevin Kelly's book, The 12 Technological Forces That Will Shape Our Future. But the quote was, we are morphing so— technology is morphing so fast that it's moving quicker than our ability to civilize them.

Well said.

What do you think of that one? I love it. I think it frames perfectly where we find ourselves today on the road to singularity.

I wouldn't go that far, but it's definitely It's also, I think it's just not a, it's just not technology. I think it's also in commerce in a sense that while we are recording this, you have millions of conversations happening on LinkedIn about Agentic Commerce and everything else. It's just, it feels like there's this consistent moving forward to what's next. And we kind of don't get the basics right.

Maybe I'm sounding like an old person screaming at the clouds, but it, I didn't, it's funny you say that though, because I was doing a course on Agentic this week, working on content for small business owners to help to try and figure out where did it place this in their head. I got the brief in June. I started writing the slides, I presented them this week. You know what I realized when I sent them on Monday?

Oh no.

They were obsolete.

Oh, ouch.

Ouch. Just telling us exactly and framing up what we've said all about Agentik, the pace of things and everything else. But there's a constant in our lives. That's why we're here. That's why we're on The Ostrich Report. Marketplaces, our old friend.. They never fail to make me interested in the world that we operate in. So I want to kick off and give you some stats, Hendrik. I was busy digging through the Marketplace Seller Trends Report by Channel Engine. Thank you, Channel Engine.

Yes, yes, yes.

But this is a really good report. I think you actually shared it with me. There's over 470 marketplace operators that were surveyed as part of it. I know that you probably don't think that that's a big enough pool, but you know what, it's good enough for me. I think it's going to give us some valid answers, but here's some numbers for you just to kind of kick off and get things rolling for ourselves. And to give you some sort of classification to tell you who is in this group, the revenue generation of these businesses. So 71% of them are doing just under $550 million in turnover. The remaining 29% are doing above that number. So it's a strong cohort. One-party or first-party sellers, the type of method that they're using is 33%, and only 17% of them now are using third parties, which I found interesting, with the remainder using a hybrid of this. And finally, the stat in here that I think is probably interesting and maybe worth calling out is that we have brands or retailers or resellers in the mix here, and brands represent 57%. So that's probably the most interesting stat to look at here, that we have brands giving us info. Yeah, I thought it was really, really interesting. They have done the research in June and July, so this is pretty up to date and on the money. Here's a couple of things for you. 63% of all consumers prefer marketplaces over brand sites. This is where they are now making their default purchase. Purchases. 56% of those are making impulse purchases. So this is not an intent signal, which is not something you can really plan for unless you're there. That's the one thing we've always said, like, be where your customers are. If they're not showing intent elsewhere and they're making impulse purchases, then you need to have the right listing in the right place at any one time. Now I'm going to give you one more second, then I'm going to shut up and let you talk for a second. But in terms of channel selection, it is a number here, 59% of them are using between 4 and 10 marketplace sites to help sell or distribute their products across the European market. How do you feel when you hear numbers like this? Is it what you'd expect or is it under or over where you thought it would be?

So if you just heard me, I just added deep exhale because I thought it was the wind outside. The 4 to 10 marketplaces that brands use according to that research from Channel Engine, for me, that's very telling in the sense that I think we are at a stage in mature markets such as the United States and Europe, just in size, we marketplaces are getting to a place where in most cases they're the largest driver of sales for brands.

Kip, can I just pick up on a point there? I think it's worth calling out. It's not just sales that, that, that, that, that marketplace are important on. Hopefully we can get rid of my stutter in the edit. But when I worked with Feedonomics last year, one of the things that they were able to uncover was it's not just a sales driver, but it's incremental sales. Brands who were on 3 or more marketplaces in North America were growing at a rate 4.5 times greater than brands on 3 or less. So it's not just that we're dialing up sales and we're cannibalizing, that kind of myth can be put to bed right now. We're talking about new money.

And that's a big deal because in most cases people forget that Europe is not one large market, but a— it's a many-to-one relationship in the sense that you have, as a consumer, you have the opportunity to shop in multiple markets, but brands have to show local pricing due to European law. I just— what, what I'm hearing from that 4 to 10 number is 2 things. One, brands understand who their top 3, 4 platforms are, and they are looking for growth, um, signals.

Yeah.

I, I also think the second thing, and I think this is a big deal, is that because you have mature markets in Europe like Germany, the UK, and to a lesser degree France, these sellers need to then start looking at where else can we go. So when I looked at the stat that you just mentioned, I, I thought it would be very interesting to know from that 4 to 10 marketplaces, is that 4 to 10 local marketplaces that the brand can go, or is that 4 to 10 marketplaces including cross-border marketplaces, i.e., I'm a brand, I'm sitting in Ireland, but I want to sell to consumers in Germany, the UK, and all of that.

I, I believe that this dataset represents cross-border. Okay. And interestingly, just taking that point, when I was at the Rhythm event a couple of weeks ago, Zeeos were on stage and they are the default shipping platform for fashion in Europe. I think they said that they, they now account for about 81% or 82% of all fashion items shipped in Europe. The central, eastern, and your, uh, central and eastern parts of Europe represented the highest growth rate regions. Marketplaces like Allegro doing really, really well, and Zalando getting back on the horse. So there are these little pockets of growth that are starting to creep back out and it's putting pressure on traditional marketplaces like eBay and Amazon to really up their game again. And if you're a brand right now, yes, it's difficult, but my God, is it difficult to open up in the US as well and to become an established brand in a retail environment or to get into marketplaces in America. I know the language barrier has always been cited as something that is easy to overcome, but now there's a lot of considerations to have and One other way to kind of consider this as well, if you want to get into the idea of omnichannel and saying, well, we want to stock on Walmart and Walmart said, yeah, we'll buy your product, we put it in 4,000 stores. Holy shit, now I've got to stock for 4,000 stores. And if they run out, I've got to replenish quicker than I've ever had to do in my life. And I'm not going to be able to keep up with the after PO service requirement that sits with servicing markets that big. Is goddamn enormous. So I think Europe represents this place that, yeah, it's slower growth, but is it more aligned to helping your business move along? And that's one thing that it has always offered. I think, and where we're getting to maybe with the conversation today, talking about Temu, you've followed them for a number of years and you have followed the growth of Chinese online businesses to get into the world of European marketplaces. I remember when you emailed me about Alibaba, publicly kind of letting it know that they had over 70% in Trendio, for example, I think was that in '23, '24, where they were a major shareholder in the late 2020s as part of a strategic initiative. So while Temu and Shein have kind of led the way very publicly in this area, this growth model has been in train for probably 6 or 7 years. So we're not necessarily talking about something new, but this is something really considered and has been purposefully put together. Can you maybe just give people that dotted journey of what you have followed over the last 7 years and maybe bring them up to speed on where is, where is Temu today? What kind of numbers are they looking at? What kind of unique visitors are they getting? Can you enlighten us a bit?

So I think to answer your question, I would be, it would be a disservice to mention that these two strategies happening I would say in the last 5 years. So you have the incumbents in Chinese e-commerce. Hello, Alibaba and JD. They have taken the road, the route of either investing in Trendio or creating new services that sit in specific markets. Such as, uh, jd.com and them, uh, now changing the name to, uh, Joybuy, which was, uh, essentially their first movement in, uh, it was in, uh, in the Netherlands. And yeah, the point that I'm trying to get at is these two strategies here The strategy that's come out, I'd say, in the last 3 to 5 years is you have cross-border marketplaces such as Shein and Temu that have literally— I wouldn't say press a button because that's doing it a disservice, but they have entered multiple markets at a rate that I don't think we've ever seen in commerce. Um, secondly, what they did was, and I think this is a new growth formula that that we will be seeing in other markets is they get into a market via the cross-border model, i.e., we're gonna have lower-cost items shipped directly from China to a market in Europe. Then 18 months to 2 and a half to 3 years later on, they make a call, I think dependent on data signals, that we can now start going after local merchants and having them sell on our platform. What I think about that, Vinny, is it's like almost like we've created this immense demand because we have so many eyeballs due to advertising and investment, and now we actually can go after, uh, uh, local, uh, sellers that can reach local customers. So what are you doing here? I think one, you're providing sellers with an opportunity to go into marketplaces where there's less competition, which I think nobody will ever say no to.

Yeah.

Two, I think sellers now have an opportunity to take advantage of lower fees, um, on new marketplaces, because in most cases when you speak with brands, which I do, the biggest complaint about Amazon is just the fact that Money, money, money. Correct. It's, it's not cheap. Um, and then thirdly, let's, let's put, let's put this in, in, in numbers.

Yeah.

In, uh, according to Transparency, uh, reports that were filed with the European Union.

Yeah.

From 1 April 2024 to 24 August, or end of August '24, uh, Tmall had 93.7 million customers.

Customers monthly?

Yes. That's for the end, for that entire period. I, I tend to believe it's monthly for that period.

That, that's about a quarter of the EU population.

But listen to this. Then from 1 November 2024 to 31 December 2024, that number suddenly moves up to 102 million. Wow. So you've gained 10, almost 10 million customers in a space of 2 months, which are, let's be honest, let's just call this what this is. This is the most important shopping time of the year. And then where things get really interesting is that from 1 January 2025 to 30, uh, June 2025, according to EU data filed, that number is now at 115 million customers.

Wow.

That's not small.

Um, well, there's this kind of playbook that when we were researching this, that, that I, I've kind of talked through a little bit, and I, I know I shared some of this with you, but like phase one was presence. And, and we, we all saw that. We saw it in the advertising world. It was, I think, did they spend $1.3 billion in advertising in 2023 or '24? Then we had credibility and this is making it normal in a lot of circles, creating lobby groups, getting on the ground and getting advocacy and hiring locally. I think that gains credibility too. It's your calling card to the market. If you know someone that used to work for Amazon or Bola.com or whoever it is and now they work all of a sudden for Temu, you're going to pick up the phone when they ring you to say, hey, Mr. Seller, we think you'd be great for our platform. And then the final part is integration. So really embedding themselves as part of the social fabric work in local markets. And what I see that now being even somewhere here like Ireland is I can now go on and buy garden furniture and have it delivered within 4 days on Temu. That is not something I could have done on eBay this time. I still can't really do that. The seller base has a higher level of trust in the platform. One, I think because they're using it. If I take eBay as an example, lots of Irish people don't use eBay.

Correct.

They don't even have PayPal accounts. So their ability to use it was kind of dead before it even started. But they do use Temu. They know why they use it. They know that they trust the delivery side of it, even if it takes a few weeks. And we've now overcome that by providing local sales platforms. So I think this idea of integration is probably the single strongest step that they are taking. And I mean, we spoke with Reece Sanford a couple of weeks ago talking about his journey.. And it's very similar to other ones out there. I mean, looking through some of the data and the stories that are out there in Germany, France, whatever country you go to, there are stories of age-old businesses. I think in Germany, there wasn't there a farm that was built in 1938 that now uses some of the Temu sales platform to help reach new customers. Danish women who have rebuilt their hobby sales channels like on Etsy that were kind of dying a death are now coming back to life because people are going to Temu and looking for a local experience. So I think these ideas of people being able to use the platform because they trust and use it themselves is a sign of where modern commerce is. And I think about TikTok as another example of that where We think of it very much as a Gen Z platform and that's where Gen Z sellers are now making success. I think it's, if you use it and you know how to use it, you can make a success of it. And that's probably Temu's main point of difference for me in that kind of integrated stage that they find themselves at. It's not going away anytime soon either, I don't think.

So let me put that, that what you just said into context. In the full year 2024, Um, according to press reports, uh, Temu generated $1.2 billion in revenues in Europe.

Wow.

Um, then secondly, they generated $120 million in profits from Europe. The point that I'm trying to make here is that what you've just explained with the usage and the trust along with partnerships with local third-party logistics services.

Yeah.

Plus this, um, usage group that's not traditional. I, I, for example, want to see a study of is there any overlap between Temu, Etsy, Amazon, and eBay in terms of customer groups in Europe? Per market. The reason why I mentioned that is— and, and I, I'll mention this point because I mentioned it on the conversation with Rhys, but I think it's really worth mentioning— is that I think we need as a sector to really welcome and understand that Temu and Shein have in most markets brought new customers to online commerce because of the gamification and lower prices and things. To your point, this is not going to go away.

Can I ask a sensitive question, Hendrik? Yes. There's an element to this that comes down to geopolitics. Okay. Yes. Temu being Chinese, there's certain countries straight away will have their backs up and maybe that's where consumers get their points of view. But I'm reading again some of the data here. In the Nordics, Kantar did a study and they found that 3 in 4 consumers believe that Temu provides competition and price transparency. Now, the wording is a little bit planned and a little bit deliberate, but I still take from it. I look at other countries in here, Spain, Portugal, parts of Italy. 92% of customers in Italy believe that buying directly from the manufacturers This is Temu's model, is helping them save money without losing quality. That is a really powerful message. But if I look at the geopolitics side of it, if you remove that, the countries that are saying they believe they have no issue with the product or its efficacy or the price or where it's derived from, or ones without a geopolitical agenda, really some of the ones I've mentioned there, how heavily does that weigh on the type of information that is shared and by whom when it comes to TIMO.

So, sorry, I don't mean to land on you, but I think we have to, we have to, no, no, no, but we have to, while we're talking about it, we have to talk about this because I think Europe is in a very interesting situation. I'll be honest. I love the fact that as an outsider, I can go to the European Commission and I can download data for all the big marketplaces in terms of what they do in terms of transparency, what they do in terms of keeping the platform safe, you know, what's the size of their business. I, I think that as somebody that loves marketplaces, you get insights in these reports that are in most cases kept in conversation. I also think that we have a situation where Let's be honest, the European growth for Temu and Shein has been driven by geopolitical pressure between China and the US. Let's just call this what this is. Um, I, I have a number here that I think that's really— that's— that makes this point. In, uh, in 2025, monthly active users Um, for Temu in Europe is 114, 115 million customers. Yeah. In the United States, that was with all the changes and all the tariffs, that's, that, that's now 41, um, to 56 million.

That's a bit higher.

I also thought so, but, but here's the thing, we're going back to this this conversation that we are not having, and I think it's something really important to mention. The European Union has laid measures on Amazon, Google, um, Zalando took them to court for, you know, being seen as a large internet platform and all the regulations that deal with— they lost the case. Yet, if you look in the news, mm-hmm, there's only one big bad wolf in European commerce, and it's Temu, and then there's Shein.

Yeah.

And, and I think this is a big deal because in most cases, if not all cases I've seen, is when Temu says, and it, it's been accused of doing something wrong, They take their medicine, they pay their fines, and they move on.

Okay, just a couple of things you've said there. The number in America, I think, is quite interesting, and it feels like it's on the low end, but I just did some quick maths while you're talking there. The GMV take that's expected through TIMBA this year is expected to exceed $35 billion.

Yeah.

Over 50% of that's going to be fulfilled by local providers.

Yeah.

But in a market that you gave me a range there, I landed on 40 million consumers in America, let's say, are using Temu. That's an average annual spend of $800, roughly $875, which is a big number that people are spending on Temu every single year. So that's one thing. Other things I've been looking up, just based on what you were saying there as well and coming into the call, there's currently, I think, 15 antitrust cases out there right now that are listed that the EU Commission have brought against large tech platforms. They pay their fine, they move on, and no one says boo to them. So this idea that we have some sort of new emerging threat is is kind of unfounded because the sort of conversations are coming against Temu. One was a gamification challenge in Germany that it is too addictive to use a platform and we are putting consumers to spend shit they don't have, but we still let them use their buy now, pay later to buy their groceries, which is such a contradiction in itself. But if you think as well about, you go to any UX conference or any e-commerce conference, if you were to get to that level of gamification or hooks or cross-selling and upselling on your own website, you'd be lauded as the greatest user experience manager in the history of e-commerce. So I think there's a lot of kind of counterintuitive arguments for why these fines should be put in place in the first place or cases taken. And it comes down to the geopolitical side of things. I think we're arriving at a common ground here.

So I totally agree with you. Um, and I think, uh, for me as somebody that spends 25 hours a week looking at search results for commerce companies in all around the world, I've come to the conclusion that Temu and Shein have become an easy target to bash by local government, local politicians because of, um, perceived taxation and everything. You know, I, I will just One thing happened last week which I think is really interesting, and that is that in China last week, uh, if you as a seller now sell on any platform, you now need to declare that tax. The platform now needs to declare that tax to the Chinese government. The point that— the reason why I mentioned this is that if you look at LinkedIn posts, if you look at YouTube videos, is, if you look at whatever form of media bashing that can be done, yeah, everybody says that Temu and Shein have, have utilized loopholes such as de minimis, such as not paying taxes, not paying whatever. Uh, have anybody looked at the news in Europe about the amount of lawsuits there are between large US tech companies and tax payments, i.e., people paying too much, and Ireland being used as like a little way—

they're listening, don't say it.

Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. The point that I'm trying to get to is, is that this geopolitical challenge that Temu faces is going to be a challenge that it will face forever, forever. But from a consumer standpoint, does the consumer really care about all the press that they read?

So here's the counter story. I'll try and keep it short because no one really cares about Ireland unless you live here. But you mentioned it, so it's worth noting that we had to take a payment from Amazon this year of €13 billion in unpaid, what was classified as unpaid taxes. It was tax the Irish government should have collected but decided that they didn't want to because of the arrangement that they had for corporation tax for Amazon over quite a long period of time. Apple, I should say. And it was held there till this year. Now it's being distributed to the citizens because it went to, I think, the Supreme Court and they said that there was no way that this could be returned to the company. The Irish Health system costs about €12 to €13 billion to run per year. We are in the process of building a children's hospital that is 5 years late, in the wrong location. It was won by a UK firm pitching to build a hospital originally, and they won the contract on the fact that they're going to build it for about €900 million. They are currently running at a cost of €2.5 billion. They have missed their latest deadline this week. And depending on what you read, they are looking to sue the Irish government for their own cost overruns. And we, we, we did not want to take this €13 billion to do something positive with it. But that just tells you the absurdity of some of these kind of claims. And I think contextually, it's worth giving a story like that. So we can really start placing these things in our head and start looking to the, to the opportunity that it presents. For some of the community that are out there. As I said, I've spent a week, the best part of a week with 15 CEOs going through what their challenges are. Half of them sell on Amazon, half of them don't sell on marketplaces at all. And they all think they can grow their businesses. Like Ireland is a 5 million, 5.5 million population. So you really have to start thinking like, what are the ways that I can move forward with all of this? How do I use the playbook here to my advantage to start bringing my business forward and gaining more consumers?

So you should be doing exactly what the Channel Engine report says, and that is that you should be running tests. You should be listening to myself and Vinny's interview with Reece Sanford. Reece laid the playbook out what the brand should be doing in Europe. You should be testing Temu. You should be using their, the massive amount of eyeballs to grow sales. You should be using it as a feedback tool to potentially change packaging, to make decisions. But I, I just think that Can I frame some of that for you?

Because I just looked at the report as you're saying that, and I can think of lots of arguments that were surfaced, I guess, in the discussion this weekend. And you always hear them, but here's a couple of things that people said were challenges operationally when it comes to marketplaces: complex return handling, manual efforts to launch new products, repricing inefficiencies, inconsistent content, Difficulty updating product info, inventory sync issues, limited visibility into inventory levels, pricing content, yada yada. The list goes on and on. Not one of them was listed as a problem that takes up more than 48% of their time when it comes to the frequency these things are occurring. All of these things are solvable by getting your data in order, by investing in really competitively priced technologies right now that can handle 99% of anything that I have just listed there. It's worth maybe the week of effort to get everything lined up to allow something like that to happen. And it's not to say you need to be on every marketplace. It's like I said, it's that if the opportunity arises, that you're prepared to jump on that opportunity. And that's what marketplace selling is.

It's not that Vinny, I can tell you that brands that are not selling on marketplaces, the first question you should be asking is, what are you doing? I think the other thing, and I, I say this with what I've learned, and, and is that I think Temu has done a good job of trying to work with local sellers. To ensure that the problems that you have mentioned are lessened.

Yeah.

I think we need to be mindful of the fact that when you deal with large marketplaces such as Amazon and eBay, getting human support is borderline impossible. Whereas Rhys mentioned that he was able to speak with somebody from Temu.

Yeah.

My honest observation about this is, is that businesses that basically tell you the examples that you noted about why selling on marketplaces is, is they are basically saying goodbye to millions of euros and pounds of revenue because somebody in the business believes that marketplaces are going to kill the business. How, how do you say no to the place where most people are shopping on in Europe? It leads me to having this— while you were talking, I had this, like, I wouldn't say an epiphany, but I had this image in my mind. And no, this wasn't created by some AI bot or anything, but it's almost akin to going to a store, a retail store, and then not having a door in front of the store for these brands.

Yeah.

So you can't enter, you can't exit, but this, the same brand will then say to you, but we don't know what to do. We don't know how to get people into our business. We don't know what to do.

The thing is, Sorry, I'm cutting you off, but where to from here? I mean, look, we're close on 35 minutes. I'm not sure where the time went, but I think what we've at least tried to do is make the argument for Temu. But I mean, we're still making the argument for marketplaces 20 years after they began. I don't think this part of the conversation is going away. We just want to make it so that people are getting all the information that they should be getting to make better decisions.

I agree with that, but I think if you are an e-commerce seller that's selling on any marketplace in Europe, I don't care if it's Bol in Holland or Amazon and all their various businesses or eBay or EMAG in Eastern Europe or insert whatever name. Yeah, you should be doing due diligence on selling on Temu. If you are not doing that, Vinny, your management team needs to get you in front of a line, and somebody needs to open a garden hose on those people, and they need to become so wet that somebody needs to put them into a fire or something so that they can become warm. The point that I've noticed over the last 18 months is that With the geopolitical tensions between the United States and Europe and tariffs, European brands need to make big decisions. If they've not made so, they are going to need to make big decisions in the next 18 months as to where the growth is going to be, because selling into the United States is, is, is, has its own challenges and complications. To summarize what I was thinking is this: Temu in Europe is not going away. It's not going to away. It's— this business has made too many partnerships with third-party logistics. They have made too many partnerships with agencies to help brands get on the platform. They have— they've gotten too many people to work for them in Europe. And the glorious thing that we as outsiders that don't work in these businesses have is every 6 to 7 months we can go to the European Commission's website, we can go download a PDF, and we can see the growth. This is data that you cannot, you cannot argue against this. This is data that is going on to the record for this business. There is huge penalties if there is lies and half-truths in the data that's provided by these businesses. Why are you saying no to a platform that has 115 million customers? I ask you that as somebody that loves marketplaces, but also believes in common sense. This is just the way that this is. And we've all seen the growth, the growth curve. Marketplaces start, marketplaces grow momentum, they plateau, and then they start losing growth because they are newer platforms.

Hmm.

Temu in Europe is on the road to growing a huge business. In Europe. Why? Because clever sellers are realizing that Temu in multiple markets in Europe can generate them sales without the headaches of tariffs, but it also provides them with data about what's working in multiple markets where they don't have to wait 3 to 6 months for the data. I know I'm stating the obvious here, but I think if you're a brand that's listening to our podcast— yeah, you should be listening to this by default if you work in commerce. Let me just say that out loud. The point remains, these Chinese marketplaces are not going away. They've changed the business model forever And these businesses are in multiple markets. Yes, they will leave certain markets because that's how internet businesses work, but in core markets where there's lots of people shopping online, whether you're in Germany, UK, France, insert whatever number or name, they are gonna be there because they want to provide customers with the opportunity to buy quality goods at pricing that's different from mainstream marketplaces. Sorry for the TED Talk.

No, it's amazing. I promised myself I wouldn't go day drinking today, but you've just put me over the edge. But like, I'm going to leave the last word with you. There was enough in there, and I think it's something that people should be considering as we go into peak as well. Arbitrage is everything. Winning on a day is better than winning on a week, winning on the month. I think that is the job today. It's winning every day that, that it, uh, that presents itself. So look, Hendrik, as ever, I love these chats. I hope, uh, you love them as much as I do. Um, but I just want to say thank you to you, Captain Obvious, for spelling out the obvious to us today on The Ostrich Report. And I know we've loads of great guests coming up over the next couple of weeks as well, and we're pretty excited to be here and to share this with everyone.

Vinny, if I'm Captain Obvious, then that is what my role should be, number one. Number two, I appreciate our conversations because we delve into real conversation. We actually have and try to provide context to situations, and I will just end off by saying that for me, Temu is one of the most interesting companies I've studied in my entire e-commerce career because they zig when everybody is zagging. And also, this, this business is just different.

I agree with you. Um, and look, I love Europe. I love what it presents for all of our sellers, uh, who are out there. I love listening to what it is they're doing and learning from them as well along the way. So in true EU style, I am going to say goodbye, au revoir, auf Wiedersehen, arrivederci, adiós, adieu, dag, salut. Anything you want to add here? Slán, dovidenje. Hello, goodbye in as many countries or as ways as I could think of in 10 seconds there. But Hendrik, As ever, it's a pleasure.

Thank you, sir. Till our next conversation.

Signing off.