Send Up the Flare: Anna Brightman on Coffee Grounds, Crisis Points & Outsourcing | The Struggle Bus

Welcome to The Struggle Bus. I am your host, Vinny O Brien, or as my friends love to call me, A U in the Bushes. With me today is co-founder of Upcircle Beauty, Anna Brightman. My first question, is it Anna Brightman still, or should we be changing your surname?

I haven't changed my name officially yet, but my necklace, you can see my new initials are ABC. So I will be Hannah Brightman Chance, which is fun to have ABC as initials. He was already double-barreled, so we've had to combine.

Is he triple-barreled now?

No, he's lost one half and gained mine. So lots of negotiations on that was our first kind of proper combined decision that we made. So yeah, he had to lose one in order to not be triple-barreled because that's just crazy.

Amazing. It's first for me and such a stupidly personal question as well up front. My mom is going to kill me for that one. But we live and die by the sword. Anna, for those who aren't familiar with Upcircle Beauty, it's got this amazing backstory, but maybe tell us a little bit about where the product comes from and we'll start getting through the story. Then it would be wonderful to hear from your, your own Czech perspective.

Yes. So Upcircle Beauty is a brand centered on circular economy principles. We're a brand that was formed with an idea that came first. The idea that kind of sparked it all was to take coffee grounds that are left over from cafes and restaurants and coffee shops and salvage those coffee grounds and use them in something new and different and better. Because coffee is not only a massive waste problem but also has brilliant benefits in lots of different areas. But the area that we thought we would utilize them was in skincare. So we started creating a— our signature range of coffee scrubs made out of these used coffee grounds that we would collect from cafes. And then that idea took off so quickly and sort of sparked the imagination and passion of customers very, very, very immediately that we thought, all right, well, let's, let's take this idea, this concept of finding a byproduct that has been produced by any industry, a natural ingredient that's gone to waste or is about to go to waste, and let's utilize it, reprop— reprocess it and turn it into the core ingredient in a skincare product. And then since we've expanded out into haircare as well, and we'll soon be moving into color cosmetics too. So that's the kind of core idea of the brand, you know, finding things that still have lots to give and then reimagining them into something completely different. And beauty is not necessarily the easiest of industries for us to have chosen to be tackling issues of waste in. But we wanted to kind of do something never done before and kind of break into an industry that hadn't been changed very much over many, many years. And so that's exactly what we did.

It's absurd to me that, one, you were able to get the response so quickly and find people who this resonated with. The second part of that is the fact that it's the beauty industry. Like, you've infiltrated one of the most difficult categories in the world. In a category that is so exposed and personal and, and people aren't willing to change regimes, or at least that's what I thought. And you have found a way to speak to people. How did you do that so early and what was the message that landed with people?

Yeah, I mean, the beauty industry is an incredibly difficult industry to tap into. You know, it's filled with massive, massive legacy brands, huge conglomerate businesses that, you know, people trust. And they're good, but there hasn't necessarily been a huge amount of, you know, shaking things up and innovation and pushing the boundaries of what that industry could represent. So of course there have been challenges. And for a brand like us, you know, the way in which we choose to describe what we're doing is incredibly important, the language we choose to use and, and yeah, the way that we describe what we're doing. But in the very early days, we got ourselves out there as much as we possibly could. We did countless shows, markets, went on stores. We used the interactions that we had with people to get immediate feedback and see what landed and what didn't. And then we've continued to iterate on that. And we continue, to be honest, to view our communication with our customers as very much a two-way street to ensure that we are saying and doing things that land. But yeah, it's not easy. But I think if I look at our customer base now, our most common age bracket sits between the sort of 40 to 60-year-old women. And so much of what we hear and things in the reviews are, I've used the same brand for 20, 30 years, but I came across this through word of mouth or because I met you or I saw you on Dragon's Den or whatever it might be and decided to give it a go because I loved the mission. So they love, you know, the story behind the brand and they want to support it. They'll try us once. And then the performance is what keeps them coming back. So that's the general kind of customer journey. They love the, you know, the two siblings against the giant industry storyline. They're willing to give it a try. And then once they do, we're able to kind of lock them in because the products work so well. But yeah, we could have chosen an easier industry.

It's crazy. I mean, from so many levels, this is a classic. On the other side, it's it's almost like you're, you're, you're finding for a solution for a problem that doesn't exist in that you went after a way to build a product that you could have done it far easier, as you said, but how did you arrive at, we could do this to being in the product? Like, this is not your background or Will, your brother's background either. Like, how did you get into product ideation and building it? And were there like nights in your apartment, you know, creating these concoctions that kids sometimes dream of?

Absolutely. Yeah, it really was that classic, like, mixing things up in your kitchen vibe when we first started out and lots of experimentation. And I will admit that the absolute first thing that we outsourced was product formulation and manufacturing. And our formulator was also our first manufacturer— formulator, sorry, was our first manufacturer. So they were kind of combined into one and that made things a lot easier. We had to have someone that was completely behind the absolute madness of our idea because there was so much trial and error in the beginning, working from selling, you know, I don't know, 2 or 3 a day to then getting our first retailers and having to scale that operation up very, very quickly. It was not easy. But yeah, we, as I mentioned, those trade shows, you know, we would mix things up in the kitchen with different essential oil blends and different flavor combinations. And then we'd ask people to vote with paperclips in little dishes at these shows. And those— the scrub that we still have is one of those scrubs that we made on day zero, which was always voted the most popular. And so we, yeah, we, we mix things up. We didn't have the professional background. We just did what we thought worked and smelled nice. And then we took it to our formulator and said, okay, this is what we have, this is what we're thinking. This is the price point we want, this is what we're trying to achieve in terms of a, you know, skincare experience or the effect on the skin, the kind of issues we're wanting to tackle, whether that's acne or fine lines or whatever. And then they go away and they make different iterations and we go through this process of essentially approving them before it goes into all the legal efficacy and stability testing and eventually gets approved. So yeah, so it was, it was try this ourselves, let's see. But the coffee was number one, and then from there it was how far can we push this ingredient? And so then we started extracting oil from it in order to make an oil-based coffee product for the caffeine, which is brightening. And then some of the other early ingredients that we would come across to upcycle were people that we met along the way. So at the London Coffee Festival, I met a guy who makes chai syrups and wanted to give me the mulch from his chai. We met florists who we worked alongside with our Railway Arch early warehouse, and I noticed they were throwing away loads of flowers, so I said, well, can we, can we have those roses? And they said yes. So very organic in those early days. I say early days, early years realistically. And then things have got a little bit easier in that regard in more recent times.

It's incredible to talk to you and try and understand your business because a lot of, let's say, the circular economy has been a project in greenwashing for many people. I say that with all due respect to them, but I think it, it was something that probably existed in the business and it made sense for them and they could go after it from a marketing perspective. But your entire business model is predicated on being able to source, knowing where the next product is coming from. How do you turn an opportunity like a, you know, rose mulch into a product itself. And that comes through, I suppose, intense research and knowledge and knowing where those opportunities exist. So your entire model is predicated on that. And as I think about this, it must be easier for you in some ways to say no to things than it is to say yes to things because you know your business so well. Or am I completely wrong? Like, do you, say yes to things and experiment and figure it out along the way?

Yeah, I would say particularly in the early days we would try and try and make it work. As we've grown and as the amount of products that we need to be able to produce continues getting bigger and bigger, we have to be stricter on what we try with. So the absolute fundamentals are, you know, is it vegan? Is it cruelty-free? What about the values of the original industry and the original business that we're upcycling from? Tracing back, not just from when we start using it, but from when they've used it. And we need to make sure that that's—

Can you give us a sense of what that's like? Sorry to jump across you, but I mean, for people maybe who aren't involved in supply chain and understand the steps that you guys have to go through to be able to stand over what is a seemingly simple statement, how far back do you go in that investigation?

Well, I mean, if I look at some of the certifications that we have, for example, we try to choose those across the different categories of a business and the different things that our brand contributes to, whether it's packaging. So we're Plastic Negative certified, which covers the responsibility of packaging, whether it's ingredients quality. So we're certified organic with Cosmos and Soil Association, whether it's animal wellbeing. So we're Vegan Society and we're cruelty-free, Leaping Bunny certified, or it's your broader brand Values and Ethics, so we're also B Corp certified. Each and every one of those certifications holds us to a certain standard. Going back to your greenwashing point, that's one of the things that helps our customers trust that we're not just talking rubbish and that we are, you know, we're held to those standards and they know it from that seal of approval that's on each and every product in our range. But it also means that when we get audited by every single one of these certifications, We need to be able to trace back not just from when we started using the ingredient, but when the original source of that ingredient, you know, how did they get it? How did they harvest it? Are they treating people fairly in that harvesting process? Has it been sold in China? Has it been— you know, there's so, so many questions that they will ask us and we need to have the answers for. So we have to do that due diligence from day zero so that we are not then having to pull a product from market. And then it's also about the security of that supply chain as well. Like, how much are you producing? Is it likely that you're going to stop producing it? We recently had a situation with the upcycled oat powder that we use in a product that we've sold for about 7 years, which is our Cleansing Face Balm, and we're having to reformulate it and we will find a new, just as good upcycled ingredient to put into that product. But in terms of customer loyalty, perception, the love of what is a pretty staple product in our range, it's going to have to change significantly because that upcycled ingredient supplier is no longer making that ingredient and we can't source it anymore. And, you know, not only that, when you have to reformulate a product, it costs us a huge amount of money and people will, you know, be surprised. Obviously we'll communicate it well, but a product that they've used for 6 or 7 years is going to have to change. And that's not what we want. You know, we want to make a product, release a product, have people love our product, and then for that to remain. So all of these things are considerations that we have to make. And obviously the earliest ingredients that we started working with, uh, have been some of the most challenging in terms of securing that supply through everything that happens in the world. It's a creative and a collaborative process. There's the wish list of upcycled ingredients that we want to work with versus the actual products that we want to make, and then matchmaking those two things into, you know, a harmonious formulation that works on both sides.

So there's an interesting dynamic in the founding of the business. It's you and your brother Will, and you both have these innate values that are there. So that must come from family background or something in the household. How would you describe the impact of growing up in a household that maybe promoted this way of thinking? Because it's quite unique and incredibly joyous to hear about and to learn about as well from my side.

Yeah, I think that the waste-fighting element has definitely come from our parents, my mum in particular. There are pros and cons of that. Whenever we go back to our parents' house for, I don't know, a barbecue or whatever, and you open the fridge and Everything is past its sell-by date. Come on, come on, there has to be limits here. But they're massively into compostability and composting and gardening and, um, you know, shopping carefully and, and being impactful or careful about the impact that we leave on the world. That's definitely come from my parents, uh, and is something that we share. But then it's also, you know, it's led by— for us, it seems like a really easy decision not only because it's what makes us different and what makes us better, but we're challenging perceptions of what people are considering as waste in the first place. And I think that's a really lovely thing, trying to make it be seen as something that can be beautiful and not just this, you know, hemp-wearing green eco-warrior brand. Like, that's not what we're trying to be. We're trying to show that it can be beautiful and aspirational and it can be cool. It doesn't just have to be this, like,, you know, subculture of eco-warriors. But yeah, it's definitely come from family and I'm, you know, being vegan or cruelty-free. I personally am not vegan in my life, but in terms of skincare, uh, or hair care, there's no reason not to be, right? So it's, it's, it's almost like a why wouldn't you sort of vibe. But yes, I mean, if I even just look at the wedding I just had, it's clear to see that I have done that in alignment with these core values. I didn't have to do that, right? It's got nothing to do with my work. But I rented my dress, I've sent my flowers to be pressed and preserved, locally sourced food, etc. So they're definitely values that I hold outside of my working life.

How does the industry treat you then? Because as we've mentioned earlier on, it can be quite difficult. And you said something I find really kind of classy about the beauty industry, that you said that people trust the brands. My belief, and I remember an old marketing lecturer of mine saying that Beauty brands sell hope, not trust. And it feels like you're providing something outside of trust that is more aligned to hope. It's like, can I do better? Can I do this in a better way? Get better results, be less impactful along the way. So how did the industry and how does it continue to treat you, uh, both on the, let's say, the beauty side and on the retail side? Because I know they're looking for innovation and categories, so that might be a little bit easier.

Yeah, I think, you know, with the way that we talk about what we do, we are a brand that emulates hope and positivity and a kind of every little helps mentality alongside that kind of underdog, uh, brother and sister against the big dogs. And, um, that innovation, that storyline of being in our early 20s when we started the brand is something that I think retailers have definitely wanted to support. Retailers is a really difficult one because I think if I look back at what we've, you know, the journey that we've had, we've been with lots of retailers, but not necessarily permanently. And I think we probably went down that route too quickly because when, when you're approached by, you know, a massive household name, it's very difficult to say no. That's one of the things that we probably should have said no to on reflection and focused on you know, our own website and securing that core tribe before you lose the control, I suppose, over how your brand is perceived and how you're spoken about and the way that you're merchandised and all of those sorts of things. But I would say that we are treated well by the industry. I mean, if you look at— we've won close to 200 awards across so many different categories, whether that's, you know, entrepreneurship, women in business, circular economy grants. We've got grants for launching different products and trying to figure out ways to work with different ingredients that haven't been worked with before. So that shows, I think, a real receptiveness to what we're doing and wanting to give us a fighting chance and give us a platform or a stamp of approval in whatever way. But then there are other elements where the industry makes it difficult, like, you know, certifications like Soil Association. We can't get organic stamped on a lot of our products. Because of the upcycled ingredient and the fact that that upcycled ingredient, if you take coffee, that's coming from lots of different sources. So we can't get all of those coffee shops to get organic certification, and therefore we can't get organic certification. So you're almost penalized for pushing the boundaries and being even better, and they haven't caught up there. So there is progress that needs to come, and they're talking about how they're going to adapt to be better and to be inclusive of circular economy businesses like our own. But that hasn't yet happened in the last, I don't know, 7 or 8 years that this has been an issue for us. So yeah, things that are good and things that still need work. But on the whole, I think we've been well received. As I get older, it's certainly easier to not be patronized in terms of my age. That's nice. But yeah, I think the proof is in the brand that we've been able to grow, right? So The more successful we become and the bigger our impact becomes, the harder it is for people not to take what we're doing seriously. And the fact that we've shown that we can scale it is probably the biggest, because I think that's the biggest red flag when it comes to retailers, investors, stockists, et cetera, is, well, it's an amazing idea, but how on earth are you going to scale it? And we have. So that's been, that's something that's made life easier.

What was that milestone moment that you knew you could scale it? Or was there one? Was it just a sequence of things that fell into place over time?

I would say probably surviving COVID and then stacking that onto that being followed by a global supply chain crisis, inflation, Brexit, and this ongoing era globally of just nightmare after nightmare after nightmare. But in terms of supply chain and scalability, getting through COVID by the skin of our teeth was probably the point where we were like, okay, if we can do that, we can do anything. Because for us, that was a nightmare concoction of massive increase of interest in our products as people returned home and focused on self-care. They weren't getting professional facials anymore. They were looking for nice, high-quality face masks and treatments they could do from home. So the interest in our brand went up and the complexity of our supply chain in terms of sourcing these ingredients and relying on the functioning of other industries which largely closed down, hospitality, coffee shops, restaurants, et cetera. They all closed during COVID The places that we were collecting from, I think it was 75% closed down permanently. So it was a real case of going back to that entrepreneurial spirit of pivoting and problem solving and finding a very quick solution in a situation where we were receiving more orders than ever. But didn't have the core ingredients that went into the products and the packaging. Oh my goodness, the packaging was a nightmare as well. So yeah, I think that was probably the big turning point for us. And fortunately, the interest in the brand never— it didn't dip back down afterwards. So we were able to capture those customers and keep them engaged and continue growing from there as well.

I'm struggling to grasp how you do all that and keep your cool and still be aware of marketing moments that appear like Dragon's Den. Like, talk us through through that because it's a part of your story, but not one that you over-index on either, I don't think.

Yeah, I mean, it's funny you say that because within our team and among my friends, we have this running joke about how many different times can you sell the same story? Because the amount that we use the Dragon's Den storyline in our digital marketing, it's our current best-selling ad. Um, it's a little like fake podcast clip that I recorded in my kitchen. About, uh, you know, the Dragons' reaction to us. And we, we kind of take— one of the most effective things for us is taking all the worst things they said about us. And it did go well. We received lots of, uh, 3 offers of investment. We shook hands on air, uh, with 2 of the Dragons, but ultimately decided not to take on their offer. Um, we used it for the exposure, we used it for the primetime TV slot. And, um, that was again, a fantastic decision on our part, one of our best. But it's incredible how you can use something that happened a long time ago and restructure it, retell that narrative in a million different ways to, you know, get people interested. And Dragonstone remains, you know, a really good hook for us. But in terms of marketing opportunities on the whole, I think we take that same mentality of, you know, that cost us essentially nothing. We also had our very first television ad through the Sky TV Zero Footprint Fund, which awarded us £250,000 of marketing spend towards a TV ad. That was obviously a competition format, but we won that and we could never have afforded to put a, you know, take the incredible risk in terms of the finance of putting a television ad on air with no idea how successful that was going to be. So we keep our eye out for opportunities. That enable us to dip our toe into different formats of marketing that are hugely expensive to see whether or not they would be something that we would then re-approach further down the line.

There's, again, I go back to the innate brand values that you hold true. They, they're part of you at your core. So I think it makes it relatively easy when it comes to spotting opportunities where other brands might think about entering a competition or putting yourself forward for a grant, it seems like you naturally know what fits for your team. So what's a typical marketing meeting like? How do you approach new opportunities that come up and say, Christ, let's not do that, let's turn left and avoid it really quickly?

Yeah, I think our marketing team at the moment is probably one of the best sort of structurally that we've had. So I remain a figure of like face of or voice of brand. A huge part of my job is just leaning into that founder story and telling it in as many different ways as possible. So any events, speaking engagements, but also ads. I film— after this, I'm filming 4 or 5 ads to keep that kind of connection with the story of the brand and that sense that the customers are like— I have my own Anna Upcircle Facebook where I communicate with customers directly in this closed Facebook group that we have. That is incredibly important that as we grow, customers still feel like they have direct access. I write our email newsletters and often I'll say, hey, if you reply to this newsletter, I will reply personally. I can't do it too often because it then gives me a week's worth of work replying to everyone. But that's something that we're always talking about, making sure we maintain as we progress into the second decade of our company. And then we have an incredible content team who are just producing so much, particularly digital content every single day, self-briefing creative concepts and executing them. Photography and all the visual identity of our brand is massive, whether it's printed materials, the photos that you see across all socials. Our organic socials have absolutely taken off recently. And then you've got our digital marketing team who, again, we're sort of scrappy and we've seen that street interviews are a huge thing that seems to work really well for engagement, like podcasting, whether it's real or fake. So our digital marketing team were out outside our office in Kennington a couple of days ago in the sunshine interviewing people out in the park about their skincare routines and their haircare routines. So yeah, I mean, in short, our marketing meetings are just all of us together, ideas sharing, thinking about what we've spotted across the different categories of our brand. Of course, when we have a product launch, which happens 2 to 3 times a year, that is probably the most fun because it's this longer-term piece of building curiosity, engagement, locking people in ahead of launch. And then how we get them back in once they've tried the product, consumer trials. So we do clinical trials, but consumer trials are also a powerful piece in our marketing strategy. But it's a lot of fun. It's, yeah, my favorite part, obviously, of the overall business is the storytelling and the engagement and the communication with our customers.

It's phenomenal just to listen to you. Your use of language in particular is quite incredible. Either the simplicity of it, the certainty of it. I find it really, really fascinating. So I'm going to listen back intently and kind of build a little masterclass because you said something that not many leaders have said to me, at least this year, that structurally you feel like your marketing team is in a really good place. And I believe if you can get culture lined up with structure being correct, I think most people are in a really good place, even just to survive during the next couple of years. And I think it's something I'd encourage people to have a listen to. I want to change gear a little bit because you talk about circularity with kind of a holistic view that not many people have. And I used to work in eBay and they're big on, you know, pre-loved fashion and everything else. How can the circular economy collaborate better to make it more of a kind of almost like a first principles process? Our waste goes from here to here and from here this other person can pick it up and create a new product. How much more work is there to be done for the circular economy to become like that?

I'd say a lot. I think for new businesses, new ideas, new concepts, etc., it's much easier. Like, for us, it was built in from day zero, so we haven't had to kind of retrospectively apply it. I think when you're having to retrospectively apply circularity into your supply chain, into your concept, um, into your tone of voice, whatever it is, That's much more challenging. But when you're starting something with those principles in place from the start, and then they become your non-negotiables, they become the thing that you won't compromise, you won't sacrifice in whatever decision you make, that's much easier. So, we have those thresholds that we're like, okay, well, we can't do that. You have to say no to something. That's, it's easy to uphold once it's already in place. I think it's harder to build in, particularly if you're a massive company. But I think the interesting thing is that from the consumer side, people want it and people will do it. They will go out of their way. There is a lack of trust. I was reading big headlines recently about how supermarkets are supposed to be recycling drop-off points for soft plastics. And I know that in our office we keep all of our soft plastics and we deposit them at the supermarket. And then there's this big thing coming out about how they don't even do it. So that's when I think The consumers want it and the consumers will go out of their way to do their bit. And it really, I think at this point is down to the bigger companies to show their efforts and to show at least the goals that they're working towards. Because yeah, I mean, people want it and people will support it and they'll pay more or they'll, you know, take the journey to deposit something in a specific place. But yeah, it has to be a priority for the company and that's difficult to be honest at a time. Like we're in, where, you know, you don't necessarily have loads of spare budget to do a research and development project into compostable packaging or whatever, right? It's not easy, but it's necessary.

The interesting part about that, it's something I talk to a lot of people about, is policy design. And I studied an internet retailing paper of the top 1,000 brands across Europe. It was at the back end of 2024 and only 11% of the top 1,000 brands across Europe, and it's all household names, everyone you could imagine, had actually got published CSR or whatever kind of sustainable or sustainably led initiatives that they're having. Only 11% of them have published policies. And I think that's a really interesting tell for me. It shows one, they don't really take it seriously. And two, as an industry, maybe there's a standard that we need to be moving towards and it's something that we haven't achieved yet. The area of maturity that you're at right now, you mentioned some outsourcing earlier on. When do you get to those decisions again about outsourcing anything, be it marketing, be it fulfillment, which I know Mark and his team take care of for you, but how do you arrive at that?

When we're at crisis point.

Crisis point. Send up the flare and hope someone responds.

Literally. When we're like, we cannot do this anymore. I think that's one of those things where as we get bigger and bigger, those crisis points only become more and more ridiculous. I think when we look back at the last 10 years, we're usually like, oh, we should have done that sooner. But it is difficult when you're a brand that hasn't really had investment and is trying to maintain control of your company. And, you know, we are making our own decisions. We don't have a board. We don't have people telling us what to do. So it's hard to know when the right point is and it's expensive and it's stressful because if that becomes the wrong decision, then that can be really catastrophic. But overall, I would say when we look back, we think we should have done that sooner for whatever that category might be. Warehousing is a perfect example. We, you know, I used to pick and pack every single order and that was fine in the beginning. And then we hired into sales roles first. And then as we got more sales, we then hired into warehousing. And then as that kind of grew, we needed operations, etc. And that's how it's built. But the warehousing itself, we're London-based, right? So getting actual square footage is extremely expensive. So whilst the manufacturing was happening outside of London, they would make the products and then they would send it back to us. We worked out of our childhood, you know, old bedrooms that we no longer lived in for the first couple of years. And then we moved into a railway arch and that railway arch became our home in terms of both an office until we were about 6 people and then we moved the office out. But the railway was the warehouse, was our London-based warehouse. And the situations that we tried to navigate in that place, the floor was cracked, the ceilings were curved. So in terms of stacking stock, it was ridiculous. It would be freezing cold in the winter and boiling hot in the summer. And it was— we stayed in it far too long. But yeah, we had to get to crisis point before we were like, okay, it's time. But it's tough, you know, you never know when the right time is to do something. And each change, each outsourcing is a handover of trust. And almost always a handover of a lot more money than you were previously spending. But then it also gives you back time to invest and to spend your energy on something different. And yeah, hopefully scalability as well.

The complexity that that takes away and the values that you derive from that. How do you talk to other founders about getting to those decision points? Like, handing over trust is such a difficult thing for founders to do, particularly where you really love your product. I know some founders who are so disconnected from the product, it doesn't really matter to them. It's just another, it's another check that they've got it right. But how do you kind of understand that this trust is in the hands of someone that, that you really, um, you really do trust?

Well, I mean, to be honest, speaking to other founders is something that's helpful in that, you know, we can go to an event or something and we'll speak to other businesses and we'll explain the issue that we're having and then they'll say, okay, well, we did this, or like, don't do that, these people were terrible, they'll sell you the dream, but don't go for it. Or, but these people actually are quite good, I'd recommend you try them out. And we've done that with larger scale manufacturing. So as we started to identify the risk points in our overall operation, you know, we'd had an ingredient supplier discontinue that ingredient, that was bad. But what if our manufacturers said, okay, we're closing up shop, we don't— we're not going to be in business anymore. We will be completely screwed. So we wanted to diversify the manufacturers that we were working with. And that was really hard because in the early days, that Formulator story that I told you about, they were so eco, so invested in the circularity mission, but ultimately not able to scale at the rate that we wanted to and needed to. And the price point was very high. So it worked for some products, But if you take body care, for example, it's large volumes that usually cost less money. So we needed a different manufacturer for that. And we started the relationship with one of our second manufacturers based on having chats with different founders in the industry at different awards, industry awards, where you'll get sat on a round table and those kinds of conversations are really helpful and have probably avoided us you know, making some bad decisions, and vice versa. We can say we did this, it was a massive waste of time and money. And, you know, that's a mutually supportive area for getting information.

Thinking about your expansion and the sort of business model that you have, because it is among one of the more complex that I've come across, to say the least. It feels like if you're going to replicate this in another country, you'd almost have to be in situ yourself. Is that something you think about it all, internationalization, and how, how does, how do you go about doing it? Granted, you're probably going to pick the most complicated way possible to do it.

Yeah, it's, it's definitely something that we were nervous about. And, you know, there are certain elements of our supply chain that, that anchor us here for now. Um, however, you know, for example, our second biggest market outside the UK is the US. And we're with massive retailers out there. And so to save on the carbon emissions and the expense of shipping all of our UK manufactured products from here to there, we've started manufacturing in the US as well. Equally, when it comes to distribution, we have 3 different website domains, one from the UK, one for the EU, one for the US, with localized fulfillment warehouses as well. So these are things that we've put in place to make, you know, scaling globally a possibility. It's easier for some products than it is for others. And something like the coffee collecting story will always have to happen here, and that ingredient will have to be supplied in bulk. But it's much easier supplying an ingredient in bulk than it is supplying individual units of the product. So there are ways around it. But yeah, it's definitely something that we've had to strongly consider and sort of figure out for ourselves and problem solve a little bit and try it and see if it works. But touch wood, so far it's worked out well. And we don't now exclusively make our products in the UK. There are certain products and even we've got some being made in Korea, we've got some in the Netherlands and then local manufacture of bestsellers in the US for sale to the US. So yeah, we're doing it bit by bit and we'll continue to, you know, change and adapt and evolve those decisions as the company grows. But so far we've managed to find workarounds.

Incredible. We're getting to the stage of the conversation where we're going to start trying to get to close. So I'm a 45-year-old man. Skincare has never been high on my regime, but I realize that I'm not getting any younger looking. What would you be recommending for someone at my stage of life who probably has a bit too much wine on the weekends? I go to the beach quite a lot. I hike, so I get a lot of windburn. What would be the product you recommend for me?

So you want to focus on the absolute core essentials. You need a good versatile cleanser, a great moisturizer, and sun protection. Those are the three fundamentals. When it comes to a cleanser, if you're someone like me, you want something quick and easy. We've just created a water-activated cleanser which is waterless. You, uh, kind of massage it up in your hand, it foams, wash on, wash off, easy barrier protecting, um, but will get rid of any dirt, grime, excess oils, etc. on the skin. Then you just need hard-working moisturizer. You could create 5 steps out of this, but you don't necessarily have to. If you are worried about aging skin, then ingredients like caffeine are fantastic. It's packed with antioxidants, it brightens fills out fine lines. Um, so I personally would do an eye cream and a face moisturizer. And then the biggest thing is sun protection. I recommend mineral as opposed to chemical. It's kinder to the skin, it's kinder to planet, uh, and it needs to be a formulation that you are happy wearing on your skin. You can go for a factor 50+, but if it stings your eyes or it feels like you're wearing clay and you're sweating elsewhere because you literally can't breathe, then that's, that's not going to be something that you're happy wearing all the time. So you're better off with a lower factor that you're happy to reapply and wear every day than a higher factor that feels really unpleasant on the skin. But figure out those core fundamentals. Yeah. And yeah, it's never too late to embrace a skincare routine.

I say that not to be trite, but look, the world is changing dramatically and, you know, we have to be a little bit better prepared for it and I have 3 young boys who want me around for a bit longer than my early 60s. I should be aiming a bit higher than that. Final question. You work closely with your brother. Is that a help, or can it be like sibling rivalry bringing it all to a head? Or how do you focus that relationship to still be friends and siblings and business partners as well?

I would say easily it's a help. There are things that as we go through our lives, we can ask more of each other in order that our lives aren't compromised. Whether it's my brother wanting to take his kids on holiday or me getting married, the other one will step up to fill any gaps without hesitation. And in the knowledge that, you know, we both 100% know that we're working towards the same things, the trust is absolutely there. It helps that we're opposites, so our roles within the business don't overlap. That was something that's got easier and easier with time. I would say that my role has changed the most, whether it was, you know, starting out so much in operations and doing the warehousing side of things to now being much more of a figurehead for the brand and a spokesperson for the brand, whereas my brother's has always been back of house, the structure, the financials, the business, business side of things. But yes, absolutely. It's, it's a positive, not a negative. And I think it's interesting that now that we have got these really clear roles, it's not the business stuff that we argue about. It's the true brother and sister stuff that never changed.

Brilliant.

Two days ago, I would say we're about to move our office to a more central location, and we'll scrap about, you know, you need to take the tea towels home to wash them. Oh, you never do it enough. Oh, you— are you going to be here at 9 o'clock to load the vans, or are you just going to organize it from behind a computer? Like, it's that classic. Brother and sister stuff that never changes no matter what age you are. But in terms of the business running and the trust and the respect for the individual roles that we have and the security in knowing that we are in this together and the safety net that that brings, that's irreplaceable. And I could not be more happy to have a second person to shoulder the burden because it ain't easy.

It's the first time you reference anything that says that it's not easy. But look, long may that relationship last and the happiness as as well within it. I just want to say thank you so much for taking time out. We've spoken a few times now and I always come out of it feeling more joyous, is kind of the word that I use. I love listening to you speak about your business with such clarity. I think lots of people could learn a lot from you, particularly I think there's a generation of founder coming through that would do well to listen to you about how you speak about your business, how you kind of embody the culture that surrounds everything that you do. And I really look forward to tracking your journey more closely and, and watching where you guys get to, because it's brought me nothing but happiness listening to you. And there's so much people can learn from you, I, I cannot tell you. I do a review of these shows about 10 weeks after them, and I've got some incredible stuff that, that I'm thinking about and things I'm learning. And, uh, you've just got a fantastic, uh, innate way about you both, and I think it just comes through in everything that you do. So I wish you every continued happiness and success along the way, and I look to hopefully catching up with you again soon.

Thank you so much. Wow, what a lovely kind of a report to hear there about me. I really appreciate it. And I have also loved— I love having these conversations. It's the best part of my job, being able to spend my time having, you know, inspiring chats like this. Um, so thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

You do it so well. Well, look, I'll let you get your day back. Thank you so much, Anna, for spending time with me on the Struggle Bus. And as I said, We will catch up again soon. Take care.