SEO Exclusive Manchester 01.6.23

Good morning, everyone. My name is Vinny O Brien, and first let me say how gutted I am not to be there with you all. I'm currently quite sick and I wasn't able to travel as of yesterday, so Josh and the team had to pivot quite quickly and work with me through this. So I do apologize. I was looking forward to meeting a few of you. We've spoken on LinkedIn, and I'll make that time up again. I do hope so. Um, but I'm heavily medicated, so anything that I say for the next 30 minutes or so is not usable against me. And I'm grateful to Josh and the team for, uh, first of all, showing the faith in me to speak at this event. Um, and hopefully it's going to be part of some broader discussion that you're going to be having over the course of the next 2 days. Um, and if you were out last night and hungover to hell this morning, um, I have no sympathy for you. Manchester is a great city, but it spares nobody. So when I was asked by the guys to get involved, I was quite unsure because there's so many more talented people in the room than me today. But I do have broad perspectives after having nearly 20 years in e-commerce. So SEO is something that's at the heart of pretty much everything I do. And you're going to have to forgive the equipment. I bought this new podcasting equipment and I thought, given that I was a little bit croaky, maybe this is going to make me sound better or worse. Time is going to tell. So look, I apologize in advance. The title of this particular set of slides is going to be A Challenging and Evolving Relationship: How to Get SEO the Love It Deserves. And I've got quite a broad-ranging set of slides here, and I hope that they add some sort of flavor to the course of the next 2 days for you, and maybe beyond that as well, that there's some discussion to be had around it. So bear with me, and hopefully you're going to enjoy it. So who am I? I said at the start, my name is Vinny O Brien. I have nearly 20 years experience in the e-commerce industry. I started out working with eBay in the mid-2000s to help get retailers selling through multi-channel, and at that point it was kind of new, to be honest with you, but there was very complicated tech stacks out there. We really had to get a very broad understanding of all the things that made ecommerce tick across all of our client bases. So things that you might not think of that I got involved in were things like I worked with JD Sports and to really understand how their warehouse operated, I went and worked with their team in Bury, just outside Manchester, actually, just off the A6 for about a week, amongst many other visits I had with those guys. But learned lots and lots with them. They have some great ways of handling SEO as well. So I'm going to share some of those stories along the way. But as soon as I said yes, I felt like, God, I've made this huge mistake, like Joe Bluth. And that song was ringing in my head, "Hello darkness, my old friend." So if anyone is an Arrested Development fan, you will think that this is hilarious. And if not, you're just going to think I'm crazy. And believe me, believe it or not, I'm going to get crazier as the slides go on. But having spent time with eBay and worked with quite a few retailers right across Europe at that point. I decided I'd move into other areas of e-commerce. I worked quite, quite a lot with retailers. So a big one in Dublin, in, in, uh, over the pond, it was called Arnotts, and I helped do a lot of their operational execution from an e-commerce perspective. I then went working with the startup in the automotive industry, and then I went into platform work before moving out by myself about 7 or 8 years ago. So with all of that I suppose I've worked on multiple sides of the coin, and that's why I think the discussion that we're going to go through today is going to be interesting. And again, this is probably why it's not ideal delivering like this, because I thought there's some good healthy discussion debate we could have around it. But key to me here is to try and help you understand how I feel that SEO doesn't get the love that it deserves. And hopefully some of you feel like that. Hopefully many of you don't, but as an industry toolset and as an industry skillset, it doesn't really, in my mind, get the love it deserves. And I'm going to explore what that means and maybe some remedies that we can think through in order to make sure that we have healthier discussions around the topic. So as I move through the slides, a couple of things that I thought were noteworthy, because you're in an industry and in a subset of the industry that's really now coming under scrutiny of all things AI. And it's only a matter of time before someone brings up AI. Guy, so might as well be me. There may have been someone before me and I would have been able to cue this a bit better, but there you go. I'm using Canva, by the way, for doing this, so I can pause this in between coughs and stuff like that. So it's very good and allows me to edit out these things as I go along too. So what I have here is a couple of quotes from a guy called Kevin Kelly, who's a technology anthropologist. That's a tough thing to say when you've got cotton mouth. Um, but he wrote this book called 12 Technological Forces That Are Going to Shape Our Future, and he was the guy who designed a lot of the technology possibilities for a movie called Minority Report, which was released in 2001. Um, so some of the amazing tech in that were made possible by his great brain, and, and he's helped shape a lot of the things that are going on in my head. And it, it's, it's quite interesting because he gives you a framework for a discussion around these sorts of things and a way of Thinking Through Problems. So this version of the book was written in 2017, so this is a few years old, but I just thought it was quite pertinent to where we are right now. So taking the first quote, this is not a race against the machines. If we race against them, we lose. This is a race with the machines. You'll be paid in the future based on how well we work with robots. And that's not just you, that's me too. And where I think that that's been pretty relevant in terms of AI, if I take someone like Neil Patel, I use Ubersuggest quite a bit. He's now embedded some of those AI tools in there to make it feel like we have control as end users. Now you can question the authenticity, the accuracy, and all those other things that you're perfectly entitled to do and should do. But where I think it's, it's interesting is he's empowering his users to say, let's not be afraid of this. But there's always going to be a limitation to what people can do with it. And I would say at this starting point, that is an advantage that you have as an industry, and it's worth taking note to say, well, how do we empower people? And what do we really mean by that? I give away knowledge for free all the time. It's something I do. I don't hold back. I post on LinkedIn pretty much every day. I will put out my best material all of the time for people to consume. What I found, I guess, having done this for a number of years, is that people don't really know what to do with it then at that point. They can take the information from you, but they can't contextualize it to their business. And I think he's been really smart what he's done with AI tools. And it's really about blog writing. And, you know, he always had the content ideas, links within the toolset. But now he's saying, you know, let us do some of that heavy lifting for you. And we know ourselves that that's going to get us a portion of the way there, but it's never going to be the work fully completed. So there's always something more to be done. And I think that's why if you look at those tools and start embracing them and say to people, we're going to give you our best and brightest, it's actually going to empower you in the eyes of your client. And even as an industry, if I go a step further, the final quote at the bottom is kind of the way I would describe what I want to get through today, which is: A fact is interesting, an idea is important, but only a story, a good argument, a well-crafted narrative is amazing and will never be forgotten. That's really what great content does, regardless of what sector of this industry you're in. It's never really forgotten. And they're the sorts of areas that we need to move into. So when I think about SEO a little bit, I think that it's sometimes a forgotten part of the overall architecture of e-commerce. And going beyond that, I think it's lost in some other categories as well. And part of it is because it's almost like a science. So when we sit down and look at it, the skill level that a lot of you are at, or the industry is at, is is really, really high relative to, say, digital marketing. And I say that without being too disparaging to anyone on either side, but it's true. The skill set to be a really good technical SEO person, you've got to combine a number of skills all at once and to be able to present this back in a way that makes it easy for someone to digest. And I think as soon as someone gets into that technical detail or sees there's a technical layer, they almost put a guard up and say, whoa, I'm not really sure about this. And that, that has a number of knock-on effects. It means I'm already drawing up barriers to investing in it. It means that I'm really drawing another barrier up to say, I'm not really sure, can I question this? Is there anything I can do to validate this? And the other one is, well, it all seems like it's making quite a small contribution, so I'm going to undervalue my investment in it. And here's the first problem as I see it in terms of your storytelling. In e-commerce, let's have a look at e-commerce. Here's the problem. Another rest of development GIF. Apologies, they go a little bit repetitive after a while. But we have this idea of a 3% problem. At least that's what I'm telling you. This is my story. This is what I'm going to try and get through to you, that we have two fundamental things going on in e-commerce that we need to address properly. And this is where you as an industry can craft a better story. So the first one is On average, the conversion rate's around 3%, give or take your client base. You're going to be maybe a little bit above it, maybe a little bit below it. But I take a lot of industry information. I produce reports on LinkedIn all the time. So I'm pretty confident that my 3% that I've put up here is pretty accurate and reflective of the last 15 years or so. But we accept it. We think that that is good enough. And most market entry strategies always involve reaching for that 3% and saying, how do we get there? How do we take our new product to market? How do we get to 3% as quickly as possible? The other area to look at is this idea of investment. So investment in this instance means investment in technologies and tools that will come in on average around 3%. So if I look at technology investment on the P&L for most companies in that $50 million+ bracket, they're going to be spending an average of about 3% of their revenue in technology investment. Those numbers again are coming through different industry bodies that I would do work with, people like IMRG and then private analytics companies like Conjoura, SimilarWeb, etc., etc. There's lots of them there who are combining all of this data to say to us there's a degree of accuracy around it. So what we want to try and do is knock down the idea that 3% is okay in terms of our investment in tech, but also that the conversion rate issue needs to be addressed. And I think that's probably one of the more pressing areas when it comes to e-commerce over the next 5 or 6 years, particularly in light of where we're at today. If when you consider that most people are in this space where they're spending a lot of money on paid media, they're really unsure as to the return they're getting from it, and they will interchange agencies over time. So the opportunity for you as an industry is to say, well, how do we, as external consultants or freelancers or agencies who want to be in this space, how do we make sure that we become part of that 3% discussion and actually overdeliver on that? So how can we over-index on our contribution to the 3% rule? And I think that's going to be a pretty significant challenge and not something that's going to be addressed over the next year or two, but something that personally I feel is something I want to take on and challenge ourselves to say, you know, if we keep at this 3% for the next 10 years, we're not going to increase investment in marketing. We're not going to increase investment in tech. And we're certainly not going to increase investment in our own skill set. And I think therein lies some of the opportunity for you. So it's time to get serious. As I said, how do we start changing this for you? And how do we start looking at what the core of the problem is? By understanding the core, I think we can develop a new story and start thinking through what are the things that make SEO so wonderful and brilliant and exciting. And for you as a group of people in the room today, How do we make it exciting for you to be able to take it back out to market and say, we want to be more relevant when it comes to your investment decisions? There's also the idea of internal training and hiring and using people within the organization. And the part I'm going back to here is that a fact is interesting, an idea is important, but only a story, a good argument, um, well-crafted narrative is amazing and will never be forgotten. I've got the chief protagonist and all of that here, Ryan Reynolds, who, who kind of understands that as well as anyone right now. And where all that came from, I don't know if you've seen the movie Deadpool or kind of listened to some of his interviews about it, but he realized he wasn't in a big Hollywood studio anymore and needed to understand how to, to kind of market this to people a little bit better. And what he decided to do was tell the story from the character's point of view and utilize his own audience to deliver that message out there in the absence of a giant budget. So it was really about the idea of storytelling and character empathy. And these are all the sorts of things that I think you as an industry can start taking on. But to do that, we need to understand what's going on in the first place. So going way back to the intro here, I'm going to call these slides, or what I did call them when I put them together, was the gift and the curse. So this is the identity Crisis Part 1. Being 42 makes me kind of embarrassed that I'm putting up slides with Jay-Z on them, but in my early 20s and late teens, I became a big hip-hop fan. Jay-Z was pretty popular at the time, and his lyrics were pretty interesting too. So as I was putting these slides together over the last few weeks, I was thinking to myself, what's a good thread? And having a look at telling this story, one of the first things that occurred to me is that the idea of SEO being such a skilled such a skilled section of e-commerce and requiring such an incredible amount of patience, it felt like it was a gift and a curse in the same vein. So it's this idea that it's an amazing talent to have and it's an amazing contributor to the business. But at the same time, the people who get it maybe have— and I'm generalizing here— we tend to see more introverted personality types. So we see people who just want to do the work leave it behind them and get out of the office at the end of the day. And that's okay. But what it leaves us with, I think, by and large, is that we've got this misunderstood, misrepresented topic sitting at the table that we all want to feel that it's a little bit better. Some of the key problems here. So from an e-commerce owner's point of view, and I own my own e-commerce business, we sell thermally insulated tents in the US market. We do it poorly. We sporadically invest in SEO, just to throw all the cards on the table. And as a board member, that makes me quite sad because I'm not influencing those decisions well enough on a month-to-month basis. And when we did it, we could see a really good result. But part of that, and if I go back to working with clients now, I've worked with Pepsi International, so, you know, major global company. I work with startups, but somewhere in the middle, I think this is what we've got to try and start doing and identifying. There's no P&L location for SEO for most people. So therefore never part of the decision-making around investing or getting marketing budget in place. Number 2, and I promise you in person this is going to be so much more dynamic and so much better, but we don't have department ownership. So when I think about SEO, and this is what I was doing over the last while, and if we're playing SEO bingo, I've hit the word 16 times already, if not more. So you can cash out now. I'm going to try and avoid saying that. I'm just going to talk more generally. But it doesn't have department ownership, which means that there's no one really looking out for it, no one to put their arm around the shoulder and say, hey, we can do this, we're going to take a long-term view. And there's no acronym. We're going to come back to that in just a second. But the department ownership thing is really critical because if you start looking at the, the idea of SEO under the ownership of marketing, then it's got to have an investment budget for performance. So where do we want that to be? That means we're probably going to get a bigger slice of the pie. It means we'd be involved more in the creative side and we would be thought of more when it comes to brand work and campaign planning. If we have companies who are more on the operational side, what you have is scenarios where SEO is seen as a cost center. So we're going to use it for a few months, then we're going to turn it off. We're not going to do it now, we're going to do it next year. We'd spend a little bit money now to get an audit done and we'll do something about that in the future. And that's a really dangerous place, I feel, for SEO to sit because, as you all know, as soon as you have a new site, which is the way most people think about it, you drive it off the forecourt and it starts depreciating value from the second that happens. There's no tracking put in place, there's no accountability sitting around it. So I think you as an organization of people have got to say, well, where do we want to sit on this and start defining where does SEO naturally sit in terms of department ownership? And I think if you do that, you start moving towards helping to solve some of this identity crisis that I've mentioned. Now, part 2 of this identity crisis is that complexity is getting more complex. Excuse the typo there, just seen it. I wouldn't have seen that if I was there in person tomorrow, which is today in your world. So what do I mean by that? Technology is moving in such a way that it's getting easier for us on one hand to do all the things that we want to do, but in fact, it's getting more difficult because we have so many things to contend with. So if I take the typical e-commerce team, they probably have about 15 or 20 different functions they need to perform every day. And one of those should be some form of SEO measurement, be that looking at work being done in terms of backlink outreach, maybe it's something from a technical repair perspective, or you're looking at competitors, seeing what kind of keywords they're using, and you maybe want to put together some sort of quiet time in the summer organic traffic win-back campaign planning that you're doing against some of your competitors when it's a little bit quieter, maybe they're not going to notice as much. So Regardless of what you're trying to do, the technology is getting better. And I referenced Neil Patel earlier on, but there's a raft of tools out there that will help you do some of that analysis and present back to you fairly rich information as well in terms of content planning. The other side of that complexity is that it's fitting into those other 15 things that someone has to do in any given day. So it gets deprioritized because maybe it doesn't have the exposure, but I think predominantly it's because it doesn't have an accountability on that P&L. So if it did, someone would be looking and saying, what are we, what are we investing now? Or why are we not investing in this? What's stopping us from being better at this all of the time? And having an internal metric set that is solely built around the accountability to metrics related to what it is that you want to achieve. Complexity is something that should be getting easier too, because we are all the time exposed to new tools that should make things simpler. We have technologies like Shopify that have made it easier for us to access the simple side of e-commerce. So you don't need to be a technical genius to run an e-commerce store anymore. You can just, you know, purchase one off Shopify, build it up yourself. And be able to do most of the functions you need on a day-to-day basis. Interesting when you go in there and have a look at the core modules in Shopify, and here kind of signifies some of those problems. You don't get any kind of out-of-the-box SEO analysis on your own sites, which they have built, which I find really, really interesting. You might get some speed score analysis, but even at that, it's very limited and it won't tell you what to do. And even coming out of the box, that they're their own mobile view of the stores that they build is quite terrible. So it's rarely optimized from that perspective. So when you combine all of that, even though complexity is making things easier, it's making it more difficult for us to shine a light on those things that we need to do more of. And I think I've got a bit of a solution. So the identity crisis— kind of trying to wrap this up— I feel like SEO is a little bit of an outsider. And maybe you will agree or disagree, and we could talk this out if I'm in the room. And if time permits, maybe I can do a Q&A, if you don't mind me coughing tomorrow. But I just wanted to, again, come back to this Jay-Z theme running through it. I was thinking of It's a Hard Knock Life, and that's kind of what it feels like from having worked on agency side. I've worked on brand side, and we have our own agency as well. And then being on the vendor side saying, okay, well, why, what kind of investment decisions should we be making here? And it feels like SEO is an outsider from this perspective because it's never really getting the arm around your shoulder and someone saying, okay, well, we know that we have to do this all of the time, not just some of it. We know the long-term impact of it. And if you don't, I think that's an even bigger problem. So we've got to identify how do we get a better seat at the table. And if this is Succession, it feels to me like we would probably be Roman, I think. You know, can be clever at times, can have fingers in multiple pies, always into the new thing that's happening. And then you kind of shy into yourself a little bit when maybe there's other things going on around there because you want— you're happy to do the thing that you do. Sorry, I had to pause and cough there, and I bet you all thought I was gonna go to the pictures he sends to people illicitly. That is not how I'm classifying fine news industry, please do not take offense. I was merely saying that if we were comparing it to something that we're all talking about right now, at least in my house, it feels like we would probably be that Roy child that is Roman. But I thought the lyrics there that I've included on the slide are worth kind of talking through. And I'm doing all this in the absence of feedback, so you'll have to forgive me. If I seem a little trepidatious going through all of this. And this was to try and take a view to say, well, how do we do things a little bit differently? And how do we help you think maybe in a different way about the industry itself? So how do we start solving against this? So all good e-commerce niches have acronyms. When I worked at eBay, my name was Vinny O Brien. I worked in enterprise account management, and I worked in the clothing, shoes, and accessories vertical by the end. So my name in eBay terms was V-O-B-E-A-M-C-S-A. So I was a complete acronym. It was amazing. Hated it and loved it in equal measure, but I just thought it was funny that that's the way it ended up. But we deal in AOV, LTV, CAC, you name it. There's tons and tons of, uh, tons and tons of acronyms out there. And I think SEO needs a new one. And this is to try and solve the identity crisis, the department, uh, accountability stuff as well that I mentioned earlier on. So how do we do this? Contribution to profitability. And this to me is a very simplistic view. I'm not saying it's right or it's wrong, but it's the view that I came up with. And I was saying, well, if we want people to take the art of SEO seriously and what it contributes to business, we've now got to force our own agenda a little bit. And some of the things we know, we know that when we're looking at the kind of outputs that we get, we will convert better on our work, 9 times out of 10, than any paid campaigns will ever do. Largely because you've already built relationships with audiences. They understand you, they're pre-motivated, they're predisposed to know a little bit about you. And you've given them all the context that they need to make a decision to purchase or use your service or whatever that's going to be. So your ability to convert is going to be better. It means you can convert more people more frequently and more of them as well. And that's one of the key things that you're in that funnel stage with people all of the way from top all the way down to bottom and everywhere in between. We're also in an era where profitability is the new goal and the new mana for everyone in e-commerce. Everyone's trying to get at a time when costs have gone up, there's more competitors than there ever has been in the space. And they're all trying to bid for talent as well. So it's not really feasible in my mind that profitability is going to be eked out the way that we think it is. When we look at other new incumbents into the market, you've got things like retail media. And if you've not heard much about it, I think you should start looking up how you can counter it. So retail media is effectively where people are now spending money instead of just spending on Google or Meta to buy ads, they're spending on retailer websites. And that can be very specific in niche verticals. Grocery springs to mind as being one that's getting a lot of dollars. Same for fashion. Um, but there's a huge shift in terms of spend going into those areas because brands feel like it's their, um, it's like their shortcut, I guess, to, to get in and try and win eyeballs and mindshare and things like that. So it's one of those areas that, um, I, I think you should be kind of conscious of. Where that money is being taken from is more at the top level of brands. So Global Conglomeration is spending a lot of money there. Brands that are doing kind of in excess of $100 million. But the squeeze middle, as we like to call them, the people who are doing that kind of $10 to $100 million mark are not really finding that sweet spot. And again, if I go back to some of the analytics that I've looked at, it really demonstrates that it's only those higher-ranked clients in terms of revenue contribution that are able to spend in these other areas. You just have to find new ways to deliver profitability. And I think that telling part of that story is going to be one of the areas that you can win on, be that if you're going in freelancing, be that if you're going in pitching for a new investment internally, or you are looking to go in and pitch as an agency. Start understanding what your contribution to profitability looks like, and that will allow you to tell a very different story to the overall business and to get yourself firm— more firmly rooted at the kitchen table. So when you're wrapping and packing all of this, you got to think of the other areas that are going to be important as well to you as teams and as industries and agencies alike. You've got to start saying, what are the other things that you can wrap up around the idea of SEO? And I said a little while ago that it's not something that should be done sporadically. It's something that should be done all of the time. So for me, SEO is kind of like corporate and social responsibility or ESG policy ready out of the box. It's evergreen. Okay, it should be happening all of the time. At some portion of every day, there should be some activity given up to supporting some sort of SEO goals that exist within the business. So from my perspective, I think that if you do, if you take that out, you're leaving money on the table for yourself. So that's part of the story that you're trying to craft and say to people that SEO is a really important component of everything you're doing from a holistic marketing perspective. And I mentioned there a little few minutes ago— sorry, there was a duplication of a slide there— and I mentioned that you've got competition. So there's going to be a lot of attention going on to paid, paid-for media with large organizations. The SMB market is where you're going to be able to penetrate this really, really well and to get in and start telling this story. So the market needs investable processes. That's something I would say as part of the language that I'd be using around SEO and saying that we need to be part of that investment cycle going on 3, 5-year capital plans where there's money given up to talent to be able to bring people into the room, tools to do the job, and investment in what's required to maintain it as well. So they're the kind of the 3 core pillars for me to say, how do we get in and do that? Right now, your main competition is in this retail media space, particularly in larger firms, because it's the new shiny thing. And in general at that kind of level, they are opportunity junkies. Well, sorry, I hit a button. I've got the new mic, didn't really account for that. So sorry. So in order for you to build a strategy, I think what you've got to do is diagnose your problem. Your problem will be different maybe to all of you, but from my perspective, if I look at it from an e-commerce lens, I think it's that you've got to clarify who you are. You have got to let know people why you exist and why to continue to invest in you, um, and not do it with a historical point of view. I think you do it looking forward and saying, well, actually, SEO is one of the most valuable things that you can invest in over the next 3 years, and it's for all of the following reasons. And that's something that I know you'll all get because it's what you do anyway. It's crafting the story in a slightly different way to allow you to tell that story in a way that's going to mean something to the receiver on the other end. That's how I believe you can win in some of these key areas. So in the final slide here, I just want to try and wrap all that up because there's a lot in it, I think, and hopefully there's been something useful in there for all of you to think through and that it makes sense. I, again, I apologize I'm not there in person to make it more interactive and maybe have a bit more fun with it, but I want to try and get through the topics and talk them out and see where we get to. SEO to me feels like one of those discussions that's always exhausting, and it doesn't need to be. It's a really positive contributor to business. And the reason it gets exhausting is because it feels like you've got to explain yourself every time you sit down to do it. So make it part of the fabric of the daily routine of work, and it will take out that need to explain it every time and take out the exhaustion of doing it. Maybe do that through storytelling. Maybe do it through being the person in the room on a kind of a monthly review who can do that and craft your own story. And at the heart of all of this, that's really what good SEO is about. It's the ability to uncover an insight, to wrap it into something really, really useful, understand what its purpose is, and then to deliver that story in all the places that it needs to be. That's the perfect place for this to live from my perspective. Look, I'd like to thank you all for taking time to listen to this in your plush red chairs. The venue looks amazing. Josh, Craig, Shreya, and all the team, apologies again that I'm not there. Hopefully this bumbled edit will do a little bit of justice to the time that we are due to spend together in person. And I'll figure out some sort of way to make it up. So if there's any parts of this that you find interesting or get really annoyed about either, and I'm happy with either. Please do get in touch, and I'm happy to set up time to spend with you. I hope you enjoy the rest of the day. The program looks absolutely amazing. Manchester is one of my favorite cities. And I'm going to leave you with a quick story because I kind of started out talking about JD Sports. This won't take long, but it was one of the best SEO tools that I saw. At the time. And Craig, we've kind of talked a little bit about microsites and their use cases. And I'm sure you've all done this before. But my favorite ever marketing— my favorite ever marketing campaign was by Cravendale Milk. And that was when I was working in JD Sports. So every morning, we were there, as I said, I was in the warehouse, and we would be getting stuff done. And around 11 o'clock, there'd be an email, and someone would then be nominated to go off and make the tea. And I always thought it was like, Okay, John, who's the, I don't know, the warehouse head or whatever, said, I'm going to pick someone every day. But it transpired that they had this website called makethetea.com. So you went on there, you'd register yourself as a user, like a social platform. And this is back in 2006, so it was all quite new. And you said how you like your brew, your cup of tea, your cup of coffee. So did you like it milky white? Did you like it a little bit brown? Did you like it with the tea bag still in and the spoon standing up because of all the sugar? And same with your coffee as well. And when that was completed, you uploaded it, you joined the brew club, as it was called. And at certain designated times throughout the day, it would randomly pick someone to go on and go make the tea and coffee for the group, whatever that time was. And then they went and rated your brewmaking skills, and they had a leaderboard. And all of this was a strategy by Cravendale Milk to bring people back to the site, to go on and place their subscription order back in 2006. At the time, it had just over 1 million users, um, and was a phenomenally strong success up around the north and the Midlands as well. It may still be going, I haven't looked it up in a while, but it's just something that sprung to mind as I was mentioning JD Sports there a little while ago. So look, in closing, again, I would like to thank you. I hope the, the patience didn't wear too thin on my, my non-Irish Irish accent. It's got this horrible Mid-Atlantic twang that doesn't really mean anything. I get really sick listening to it as well. So if that's you, I apologize profusely. Hopefully there's something in there to spark a little bit of interest and some conversation for you later on today, good, bad, or indifferent. Thanks so much for your time, guys. Have a great couple of days ahead.