Struggle Bus With Mike Perera

Welcome to The Struggle Bus. I am your host Vinny O Brien, or as my friends like to call me, hey you in the bushes. With me today is someone who I had the pleasure of meeting last year, Mike Pereira, who's the Senior Digital Director at Nike. Mike has a brilliant ability at avoiding curveball questions, which I threw loads of loads to him at our meeting in London last year at the Rhythm Live event. But Mike has graciously taken time out of his day this morning to come say hello. Mike, welcome to the struggle bus.

Thanks very much, Vinny. Good to see you. And you have a talent for those questions, that's for sure.

Yeah, I'm kind of honing it. I'm hoping no one else moves into that space, otherwise I'm screwed. I'll be back on the factory line. Mike, as I explained, I try to start out with one question and then move on from there and build these conversations. And it's more to know the person rather than the brand or other elements that might be a little bit too obvious. So I'm going to give you my first question. We're going to see where this takes us. And we had some really interesting conversations at dinner, so I try, I'm going to try and build on some of those. But what I'd love to know from your perspective is where is the maturity of the digital customer today?

I don't think it's anywhere near reaching a level of what we would call maturity. I think that the minute we feel we're at maturity, something comes along like what we're experiencing right now in chatbots and augmented AI, and obviously what that's going to do to to the consumer and how we shop. I think that's what's most exciting about this whole industry. And that's why every single day when we come in, we think we've got it, we think we've nailed it, we think we've understood the consumer and we've optimized the journey and it all gets turned upside down. So to answer your question, we're nowhere near maturity or I don't think we ever will be either. I think that's what's exciting.

This is season 3 of doing this. So I think you're up on guest number 25 or 26. You're the first person that has said the word excited particularly in the— I think in any aspect of these discussions, but in the first minute you said the word excited and you can see it in your face. What is it that excites you and what motivates you within the role?

Well, I'm an optimist by nature and I think with change you have an opportunity to also adapt and as a company make yourself better and more relevant to consumers. But I think what's exciting about it is it allows us to really question our business model, our brand, our go-to-market approach, and actually question how relevant we are to the consumer of today, knowing that that consumer and how they shop changes so often. It just keeps us nimble. And I think that's why I get so excited about it, because it's when you come into work, it's not stagnant and it's consistently dynamic. And I think that's what is really cool about this industry.

I, I say this with huge respect, that must be challenging for you because you seem like you're interested in every single individual that you meet. That's from the dinner we had together to trying to walk through the, the floor at Rhythm Live. You seem to know a lot of people and know lots of things about them. Where is that, that natural curiosity come from? Is it your parents? Is it just, just your own general curiosity?

I don't know is the honest truth, but you caught me off guard. If I try and give you an instinctive answer, um, I'll get a lot of energy spending time with people. And I think just as a personality, I'm genuinely intrigued by, by things, by life, by people, by how things work, by people's backgrounds. And I think by getting to know someone better, almost— it's almost impossible to not find commonality somewhere. And I think over time, when you spend— and I know you do as well— a lot of time in, in environments where you don't really know people that well and it can be very awkward. I hate awkwardness. So over time I've developed a muscle to try and break that awkwardness and that comes through asking questions and getting to know people better. And I think then you find commonality and I think then you can have an opening to a topic or a conversation.

Is the commonality as important as the difference from a career perspective? Where do you play more emphasis?

So let me just double-click on commonality. Commonality is more the subject or the topic. I think the perspective in that space, I think it's even more exciting where we have a difference in opinion. But I think that the topic, if I met someone and they were an expert in neuroscience, I wouldn't even know where to start to converse around that. But I think, and digital and e-commerce is so broad and there's so many subject matter expertise components within it, but I think even just that macro topic has so many subsets within it that are that can become commonalities.

There was a few things that you said when you spoke on stage that really struck me. I think you're someone, you've mentioned nimble a few times, you're very comfortable being agile. And I think you recognize strategy really quickly, but the nature of strategy feels like it has changed to become more nimble, which is almost throwing the definition of strategy against the wall and saying it no longer matters. Is nimbleness part of strategic makeup or part of a business model? Where does that nimbleness sit on your, I suppose, the skill set that you have?

Well, I think there's two components to that. There's the individual component of nimbleness towards me as a profile, and then I guess there's also the nimbleness that's required in the brand of the company that you work for. I think as an individual, it's absolutely paramount to be successful in any industry today to be nimble. And I think that's something that you need to develop and I think be aware of the necessity of that in order to stay just even ahead of trends of like what's happening in the world because of the pace at which it's moving. I think if as an individual you're nimble and the company or the brand that you work for isn't or doesn't allow that to foster, the two won't work. Because I think you can be nimble, but you have to bring people and the company and the processes alongside with you. And I think that's where I've been very fortunate to have worked for some great brands, all of which I think allow that to foster, which I think also then fuels my eagerness in order to be so, because I can see the benefits in doing that.

When you kind of talk like that, it feels like you sought out certain cultures to work within. And I think culture match is something that we're all being told that we should be doing a little bit more of or paying more attention to. How do you start aligning that or becoming aware of the culture that you want to operate in?

Great question. And yeah, you're absolutely right. I think more important than anything is the culture of an organization in which we work, and definitely for me, in which I work. I think as I've grown in my career, I have the privilege now of also having a really important role in determining that culture. So that's also a responsibility that I take on myself. And I think what's more important for me in, in the environment in which I work is the culture that I would like to establish. Does that— will there be an environment in which that's allowed to flourish? And so that there's a component of the culture that I wanna try and create and build. Will that be a fit for the company that I'm working for and, and within Nike is absolutely the case. And then I think there's a responsibility on me alongside a lot of my team to actually lead by example and create that culture and really foster that mentality to almost be at the forefront of trying to push a lot of the words that you're using around curiosity, nimbleness, and just overall agility, I think.

What does it feel like to work in that type of a culture? Maybe for people who are in mid-market or in startup, Can you explain what it is to have an idea go from concept design right through to go-to-market? It must be an incredible process, but it must be very fulfilling and rewarding as well.

It is, it's absolutely fulfilling and rewarding. I think if we're really honest, it can also be incredibly frustrating for a variety of reasons. So if I go with the former, why it's exhilarating, I think you have the ability to genuinely impact so many billions of people's lives. And I think working within sport, it touches the edges of culture through sport, through fashion, through music. Um, there is almost no one in the world that couldn't, as a potential market, be touched by that. And I think that's where at Nike we really reference what we call the athlete with an asterisk, and that is anyone with a body is an athlete. So in theory, every single human being is there. And I think That's what's really exciting about it because you have the ability of creating products and experiences for effectively everyone. The frustration can come multifold. You can be working on something, building something, and some sort of a variable can change, and then that work is either lost or needs to be pivoted or restarted or reestablished. So because of the pace and the dynamism of the industry and the consumer, you have to then have a thick skin and not get downbeat and not take it personally when sometimes those pivots happen. And also, you know, the industry that I'm working in now, it's becoming, I think, more nimble and trying to be more relevant and fast to the consumer, but it's still operating on very much a legacy backbone of how we serve the consumer, which is a 6 to 9 month lead time when it comes to actually creating product, which at the end of the day is, you know, our company makes products for consumers. So I think there, there's a component where you want to be faster, and I think we are improving in that space. But that can be absolutely frustrating where you see a trend or you see a product really launching well and better than you planned, yet you just can't get enough of it to actually serve that demand.

The old hindsight is 20/20 vision is one of those adages that rings through my head. Listening to you, not just today, but in previous conversations that we've had, I always wonder how much of that huge intellect that you have is learned or how much of it is taught. Was it formal education that has given you that broad scope and remit within your brain, or is it being able to take what you've learned and turn it into on-the-job learning?

Good question. I've not been asked that before. I guess it's a mix of both. I mean, I studied business management university, so you learn the foundations there. I think there's always been a genuine personal interest in commerce, in digital, in consumer behavior from even before university. But I think even more so now, there's, I think, on-the-job training, let's call it, which is getting exposure and experience to various environments. But also something that I've done for many, many years in my commute to and from work and through travels. And I'm traveling with work, I'm always listening to podcasts around what's happening in areas that, in two areas really. One is subjects that I don't really know much about or I'm interested in. For example, now of course in the world of AI and actually what that means, how it's moving. But I think also just interviews with leaders who I respect and actually getting their perspective is fascinating to also understand how they look at things and how they articulate things. And I think it also then just, it gives me at least an ability to really think twice around how I may be looking at things and looking at things from a different perspective, having heard those different angles that maybe some leaders with many, many years experience have had.

And maybe you'll share some of those that I can share with people who are listening. And sometimes some of those podcasts you're listening to or interviews that you think are really helpful. And it's kind of a follow-on to that then. So when we spoke again, I think it was October last year, maybe November, I asked you a difficult question about have we got this multi-tier e-commerce ecosystem now? And you said absolutely, we have. There's enterprise and there's mid-market and everyone else in between. A lot of people go to conferences and go to events like Rhythm Live to try and figure out how to turn those interesting elements into action. And I wondered, through listening to you, is there something that maybe you can share with people to try and think through? Well, maybe it's not the role today that you're preparing for. Maybe it's something in the future. And how do we get into that idea of long-term thinking when we're so boxed into thinking about the next day, the next week, the next month, and the next accounting cycle? How can you develop that self-awareness to start planning beyond that immediate requirement that you have?

It's a really relevant question, actually, because just this week I sat with the team and actually reflected on that, which is it's so easy to just spin the wheel and there's so much going on in everyone's day-to-day. I think we could all fill multiple days in one day's worth of work and keep going. I think you've gotta force yourself to take a moment to step back. And I think that what works for me is, is you carve out the time. So in your calendar, you block out the time, you're unavailable, you turn off your devices, and actually it's just taking a moment. And then you take a step back and think, and you think, right, what are we actually here to do? Where can you make an impact as an individual in terms of the remit that, that you are covering? And what is the plan of getting there? And actually the other component is on everything that we're working on, there's no debate, A, that there'll be a Pareto rule of 80/20. So why are we focusing then? Normally it's organic to focus quite equally on things as they come in. And then what are the topics that are really going to make a difference for the company that we work for and ultimately for the consumer? And so that's one. And then the second component is where, and I think of this for myself, where am I not spending a disproportionate amount of time that actually when you take a step back and you think and you plan and you assess, you say, this is where I should be spending the time. I have to do that far more regularly than I do because you do get sucked into topics, into things, into escalations. And so I think that's such an important muscle to continue to just bring to the forefront and to develop because with that focus, I think then you just become a lot more efficient in where you spend your time.

Hugely interesting. There's a lot I'm going to take away from this and And after the shows, I typically in a few weeks' time, I start reviewing and going through all the interesting topics. So I've probably got about 50 more questions for you. But you've traveled, your parents traveled. You talk very fondly about their impact on your life when we had dinner. I think there's something in that as well. I think you purposefully put yourself in places where you can learn and grow and then at the same time, keep what's very dear to you very close by. Like you talk just before we get on about bringing your daughter to school on a Friday morning or bringing the kids to school, and you talk as excitedly about that as your work, which I think is a good measure of balance. And sometimes we forget that. But the question's more about this kind of transient nature that you have. Like you've traveled for roles and you're not afraid to put yourself in those uncomfortable positions. How much more do you learn from being in new cultures and among people who have differences? Because the concept that every single person is an athlete tells us the total addressable market, which we're all hell-bent on trying to understand, is everybody, always, every day. That's a hard thing to get your head around. It's like space never ends. How much does that discomfort assist in that, or how much does it put blinkers on you, uh, to, to how you can grow in the role?

Well, I think if we start with the macro topic, I think diversity is a wonderful thing, I think, to experience, but also to be around. And now diversity has lots of subcomponents within it. I think that the reason for that is you're surrounding yourselves by people who will just think differently. And I think that's, that's period. It's irrelevant what the level of diversity is, whether that's their perspective on life, whether that's their upbringing, whether it's their hobbies or what they think is important or a routine, they just think differently. And I think when you have different perspectives in a workplace, it just reflects society closer. And I think the closer you reflect society, the closer you reflect a consumer. And as a brand, if you're there to serve a consumer, and I think with a multinational brand like Nike, where we're trying to serve or 7 billion people in the world, you have to have that in the room, otherwise you're never going to be as relevant for them. And you touched on it before, I've been exposed to that, not through choice, from upbringing where born in one country, moved to the UK, so born in Poland, moved to the UK. I have a Sri Lankan father, a Polish mother, so very diverse in its base. We moved house a lot as well through my father's work in the UK. So I've been brought up in that diversity when it comes to people, but also environments and countries. And so I guess it's second nature to me. But I also, when I speak to people, I'm absolutely fascinated just the background they come from, but also just their hobbies and what they do in life. Because I think it forms a personality, but also then their perspective on topics is going to be so different to mine. And I think just hearing that, I may not agree with it, I may not do the same thing, but I think just listening to it can also provoke my own thinking and shape a lot my own perspective on life, but also on work.

An incredible level of insight for Friday morning. And I said to you at the top, we try to keep this conversation to 18 minutes, even though I'd love to keep going and speak with you all morning long. So I'm going to respect it. But the one question I've got to ask you before I let you go and say thank you is, if your career was a song right now, what would it be? I ask everybody this.

That's the hardest question of the lot.

You can send me a text if you can't think of an answer. That's all right.

I'm going to send you a text. I need to think of that instinctively. Otherwise, that's very difficult.

Well, I won't put you on the spot. I'm not going to hold you onto the spot. But Mike, I want to respect your time. I know you got to run pretty quickly. There was so much in there. I can't wait to sit down, read it all back to myself, listen back. I'm so grateful to you for spending time with me this morning, and I hope we get to do it again a little time in the future, and maybe we'll sit down and grab some food again later this year.

For sure. Thanks so much, Vinny. Great to see you. Chat soon.

Have a great morning, mate. Take care.

See you. Bye-bye.