The Ostrich Report AKA: The Marketplace Podcast with Vinny and Hendrik Week 2

All right, all right, all right. Welcome back to the Marketplace Podcast with me, Vinny O Brien from RMW Commerce, and my colleague Hendrik Laubscher in Cape Town, South Africa. How are you, Hendrik?

Vinny, I am well. Um, I have a lot on my mind. Um, And today we are talking on a topic that borderlines on the kidding factor that I, I have in my mind. So, uh, yes, excited for today. Um, what's on your mind?

Well, consider this the doctor's chair for you, okay? So anything that you want to say today, get it off your chest, empty your head. You're going to feel good by the time we finish this podcast. And I know that we've loads on, on the agenda. What's on my mind? I've got that Friday feeling. I know we don't like to get into specifics, but I love a Friday, always have. It was always that day that separated your work life and the weekend. But speaking of days of the week, one of those historical things that still stands to reason, which I loved about eBay, was that Sunday night was the night that your auctions should end. And it was really interesting because they tapped into this behavior, which was people were at home on a Sunday evening and they were watching TV with their families, just finished dinner, and they were, they were dual tasking. So they were on looking at TV and then they were on their mobile device when mobiles first came out, or they were on a laptop and they're sitting there monitoring your auction. So this is the time when traffic just grew to this huge crescendo on a Sunday evening. So if you were a smart seller, you understood this behavior and you decided that's when my auction is gonna end. Did you know that?

Well, no, I did not, but it makes 100% sense. And wait for a drum roll— you have just confirmed that eBay knew of deal screening way before we actually knew what deal screening was. And for the record, deal screening is not when you have your dog in front of the car barking at you.

Well, they were pretty smart. So even back in those days, they had this thing called known goods. We think a lot about security and privacy these days. So in 2006, 2007, they had this principle called known good. It meant that if you were logging on from a particular device, it recognized the device. So when you had things like shill bidding, which was where you might go to sell an item and you ring your brother and say, hey Vinny, go and bid on this item or go buy that item so I can get my feedback up. They understood the relationship between devices or cards or phones or whatever the heck it was. So the security detail that they go through right now is a step above that again, which I think is absolutely phenomenal. One or two of the other little nuggets, and I love the stories that emanate from marketplaces, and in particular eBay, because some of the smartest business ideas and people that I met came out of marketplaces. There was a guy in the Isle of Wight, just a little island off the UK, and he sold windscreen wipers. That was kind of the essence of his business, that and light bulbs for cars. And he had this gut feel that on days that it rained, he sold more windscreen wipers, which kind of makes sense. But he wanted to test this theory because he wanted to try and adjust his pricing to make benefit of it. So what did he do? He decided there was information out there that could help inform his decision-making. The information came from the Met Office in the UK, the guys who give out the weather information. They were giving out the percentage chance of precipitation falling on any given day. He decided once it went above a certain level, he was going to drop his price and let his buyers know that his prices had adjusted so that he would get a bump for the sale of wipers on that day. Now, the exact number fails me, but he, over a 12-month period, had about a 22-23% increase in revenue off that little nugget of information that he got. I love that kind of stuff. We saw so much of it in eBay. Um, did you ever kind of come across those kinds of ingenuity, or people with that kind of ingenuity?

I did. Um, for the record, what you've just explained is what we now call machine learning, um, and learning of data that can be used by, by AI. I just wanted to call that out.

Um, this was, uh, the opposite of large language models. It was small voices models and notes from an island. That's what we call it.

Yeah, for me, the one of the things that I will always remember was, um, sitting inside a platform and understanding, um, the impact of seasonality. Um, so, um, I will always remember that, um, one of our clients was an internal partner that, you know, was part of a group of companies and they sold fashion. And I will always remember till most probably the day that I die that in the summer season, on a Wednesday and a Thursday, their dresses category literally got the traffic bump that could literally be seen as the largest tsunami in data that I've ever seen.

Amazing.

Um, and then as soon as summers ended, that vanished, and then suddenly nice-looking pants became like the flavor of the month. And the sad thing, and now that I think about it, is the sad thing is, is that sitting in multiple medium meetings— yes, a meeting can be medium— um, they never were able to essentially used that. As I, I remember saying, guys, you have to think about your pricing, you know, you have to be testing your, your pricing because, you know, there's a huge opportunity. And I remember like, it was like, as I was, as I said this on my little mind meld that I've got below my name this day, you know, it was on the kidding meter because nothing ever happened and I will always remember that, and it's just, it's, it's, it's, it sounds so very basic and fundamental, but as a marketplace seller and as a platform, you have something that nobody else has. Do you know what it is called, Vinny? Insights. Insights. You have a reams and reams and reams of data.

So, so a couple of things I'm taking from this because I want to get into our topic now in a minute. Days of the week matter. Okay, that's an insight. So I think you've got to be curious enough to, to need to get an insight. And I think that's one of the missing skills. We talk a lot about skills and sort of people that you need. What I loved about that early adopter of marketplace mindset was people were curious. They were curious to see what it could do for them, but then they were curious enough to try and figure out days of the week, hours of the day, and figure out those variables that they spent a lot of time looking after. And today we call that insight or data mining or whatever, but they were looking at human behavior. Yeah, whatever, that's a real boardroom speak I got going there. And what we want to talk about today though, because it kind of ties into that topic as well, is we would like to start debunking some of the myths that exist around marketplaces. And we're going to try and help you navigate your way through some of the decision-making that we feel that you should do Before we get into the meaty stuff, I'm going to shoot a few quickfire questions, Hendrik, and I want you to debunk these myths for our listeners. Now, the first one, are you ready?

Well, if I'm not ready now, the ostrich report will be a ginormous failure, so I am ready. Let's go, Vinny.

Ostriches beware. Okay, first question: was Wish.com ever a good idea?

Really? It's a resounding no. What are we doing?

Question 2: Is Pinterest still a thing?

Um, yes, it is. Um, and I will just add little nugget of insight. Love it. It's the biggest driver of traffic for arts and craft sellers that I've seen in a— in yonks. Okay, moving on.

No, it— the reason I asked it is I learned this morning that they had 500— or they do have 537 million active users per month. Pinterest continues to be a brilliant source of, uh, backlinking as well if you are a smart seller. And third quickfire question: who is the single best new marketplace on the block?

Oh, for me there's actually two, but I, I, I, I will just say I think the single best marketplace at the moment, it has to be Temu because It is essentially unstoppable. You can find anything, um, and it's so good that it's actually beginning to cannibalize Shein, um, and Shein doesn't want to publicly admit it yet, but I'd say it's Temu.

Okay, and your final question in the quickfire round is, is DoorDash a marketplace?

Oh my word, now this is going to most probably start a ginormous, ginormous—

yes or no answer, Hendrik. I'm gonna have to push you.

Yes, it is, it is, it has to be. It's a double side. Um, see, on the one side you have the drivers, and on the other side you have the retailers that are available on the platform. Am I right, Vinny?

Yeah, so okay, let's— I, I'll give it up. We have the marketplace network effect there. You've got demand on one side, you've got service on the other, and maybe you've got customers on the other side as well. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna let you have that. So let's debunk the first myth. What is the difference between a marketplace? Let's take eBay and Amazon. Can you kind of spell that out for people, starting maybe with why they are different but the same?

So think about eBay as Marketplace Version 1 and Amazon as Marketplace Version 2. So eBay, when it started, it was essentially a person-to-person marketplace, um, that was a bazaar as we now know it, or a ginormous outdoor festival or market, um, that had no logistics. It had payments, but it didn't have logistics, and it was a discussion between the buyer and the seller to— in order that either method of payment and/or logistics was a discussion. It was a message situation. Um, nowadays eBay has still got that, but they now have brands on their platform, and I use the brands as, as, as essentially like the simile between them and Amazon. Amazon is a marketplace, and different than eBay because it's an end-to-end marketplace that essentially, um, you can start your search and you can get it delivered from basically completing your cart. So, um, you have on both, on both marketplaces, you have buyers looking for stuff, but the end result on these marketplaces are different. In the sense that, um, with eBay there's a discussion. Yes, they have tried logistics in a variety of markets. Don't come after me, eBay, I know, I know. Um, but you're not listening, it's okay. But, but with Amazon, but with Amazon, you know for sure that because they have the goods in their warehouses, um, Thus it gets delivered. So, so what you've just highlighted for me is something that I just want to call out. This is the nuance. This is the nuance that gets lost when you have consultants and business consultants and management consultants coming into your business. And this is the kind of stuff that unless you have experienced an agency of record that actually knows what they're doing. I'm still looking for a few of those, just by the way. Um, but these nuances lead to, in my experience, an absolute, absolute cluster. You can put the final words into it. I'm not going to say it because this is a parental-guided— parental guidance podcast.

We can say it, but I'll let you say it.

It's a cluster that essentially could basically ruin the business.

So I, I want to take a cue there because I think it's important to distinguish that when you're looking at marketplaces, you've got to figure out, you know, or sorry, one of the first questions I get out is get asked is what's the right marketplace for us. You've got to determine what type of marketplace you need. So I think Amazon, the way you describe it to me, and I don't think I've ever said this out loud, but It is, yes, it's a marketplace to buy and sell product. You know, as a consumer, it's effectively somewhere you go to buy product and you expect that it gets delivered to you. But if you're in business and you're a brand, actually Amazon is a service marketplace to you because it serves a few purposes. It allows you to sell product to customers and find them. It allows you to do cross-border trade. It allows you maybe to do logistics in a way that you've never done before. And now it allows you to do advertising as well. They're the growing streams of, of business for big firms like Amazon. Um, the full-service approach is— it's, it's only possible, I, I think, and to do it well, where the scale is there. So I think MercadoLibre are probably the next best example outside of Asia that we can see mirrored Amazon's model, as opposed to looking at eBay and said, hey, we need to do more of this because there's a lot of, a lot of replicas of eBay. And I will point out, as dormant as eBay's brand might be in people's heads, eBay only got overtaken as the, the second most trafficked website in North America last month for the first time in 20 years. So it has held that spot for that long. That is how fundamental eBay is in buyers' minds. That's buyers coming to eBay. That's not, that's not brands. That's buyers who are there to purchase something. I still think that is a phenomenal place that eBay have held.

I, I think what you have highlighted with your last comment about MercadoLibre— for the record, I love MercadoLibre because they— I believe they're the first example of a developing market-based marketplace understanding where they are. Um, over the last, I'd say, 24 months, there's been significant investment in logistics, there's been significant investment in advertising, and then also they're increasingly offering, you know, video and things that if you essentially put them alongside Amazon side by side and you, you, you remove the names and you essentially ask people to identify them, they will say to you, but this is exactly the same thing.

I know it's a different scale, but it's, it's, it's interesting because you say it's, it's the most interesting developed marketplace, and I, I tend to agree. Like, they've got, um, payment gateways, and, and that you can now use that on, on your own website as well. So they've really looked at that Amazon model of saying we become core part of the infrastructure, and that, that to me is the difference between maybe a, a service marketplace versus a classic marketplace. And I think what we, what we have here, and this is kind of the, the myth that, that I feel we're debunking, is not every marketplace that's been created in the last 18 months because people want to build a retail media network is a service marketplace. They are really just large department stores where people can buy a wide range of products. So in the UK, Kingfisher, DIY.com, Boots— all these guys have now got marketplaces, yet they're not necessarily called marketplace.

I always say, and this is most probably one of those things that you hear multiple times on this podcast, no marketplace is created equally. Unless you understand that little nugget that I just dropped, yeah, you will make horrible business decisions and you will miss flywheels that could essentially grow your business. And I will also add to your last comment, um, Vinny, that we've seen a, a, like, a new age business, like, be established in the last 5 years. Um, I know there's a fairly well-known one in France where they essentially help brands become marketplaces with software and all kinds of things. So just The service and the non-service marketplace, I think that's a really good call out because at the end of the day you need to understand where your consumer is. They're not on all the same marketplaces, newsflash. Um, and, and thirdly, I say again, not all marketplaces are equal. They're not created equally.

Yeah, and they shouldn't be. I think that's where it gets interesting. Now, this is where brands have a challenge. You've got to figure out where should we be placed. I think the emergence of niche category marketplaces is interesting. IKEA have said they're going after furniture, really targeting, you know, a return service in effect or an exchange service so that people feel that they can come in and do some sort of bargaining. I also think that the idea of niche at least allows you to right-fit from a category perspective and say to yourself, 'Okay, well, if I'm going to list my product, the effort required to map my product in here is going to be less because they already know that if I've got a sofa, it's probably got 30 or 40 different fabric choices. It may have different feet. It may have different little pads to go on the bottom of the feet.' And it's only when you, you know, when you talk to the retailer or the brand, these are actually the barriers that they put up as to why they cannot list on a marketplace. They come up with these absurd ideas that no way, it's too tough, or product makeup is absolutely absurd. Car parts, just to give an example for people who are listening and may be interested in the nuance of data here, they have this thing called a K-type. So it is effectively saying that if you take a filter for your car, for whatever, I know, a pollen filter, it has a link to a vehicle make and model. At its peak, one particular pollen filter with its part number can do any number of vehicle types. The most that I have seen, and I think it applies to about 5% of all parts in that universe, can have an application for up to 5,000 vehicles.

Wow.

5,000 vehicles. eBay did all of that mapping exercise in the background for people. Now, we're not debunking a myth here. I think what we're trying to do is debunk the barriers. That— I just want to summarize that for people. But eBay went and did that classification for you, so they have now made it so easy for you to go and list your part that if you put in— it's called a K-type— if you put in that data point, it will then actually go and do all that vehicle matching for you. And in that same way, those niche marketplaces that are now emerging are taking on the heavy lifting of saying, we will do all that data mapping for for you. So I think that is where you start. You look at the path of least resistance for the category that you naturally belong in and say, technically, where do I fit? I think that's a really interesting point that you can start at because it allows your team to get on board. It says to them, go and figure out how we do things today and see where can we do this easily somewhere else. We're not going to get through 10 questions today, Hendrik. We're only going to get through like 3. What are we going to do?

So So, so let me just add, I, I, I know we're only going to get to 3 today because this, as I said, this is a huge situation. And this, I, I've lost count in how many discussions of this nature I've been in. I disagree with what you just said, Newsflash, which is, which is almost never, um, and I think you have debunked the myth. And one of the One of the myths that drives me absolutely bananas and basically has my kidding meter basically through the freaking roof is— wait for it— we need to invest to be able to join a marketplace. What are you investing in if the data has already been mapped and it's ready for you to just do a few manual entries or hire somebody like part-time for a couple of weeks, that is not a barrier. A barrier is having to lease a Marketplace warehouse in the middle of nowhere in some country that you've never heard of. That is a barrier. But so in this— in needing investment to have data worked on, or Um, maybe I'm clutching at straws here.

No, no, I, I, I, I hear you, but there's so much that it drives me absolutely nuts. It's the use of language. So I had a, I had a school teacher in secondary school here, so that's between the ages of like 12 and, and 18. We called him Batman. He was, he, he wore a cape, like he was a real old school teacher. He, he believed in education from the, the 1920s. He used to like throw chalk at people as well. Harmless old stuff, wouldn't get away with it today for sure, but he was really particular about how we use our language. Um, Mr. Brennan, you're not listening because you're up in the clouds somewhere, but, uh, you, you set us up well for life, to be fair to him. You use the word invest as opposed to cost. When you say that to people, they say it's going to cost me X. That, that I think is a fundamental difference in mindset. So you've got to look at this in terms of investment. And I would argue, and it's maybe for another podcast for another day, but how many companies today, or how many brands have a technology investment budget? And you don't have to answer that. So here's the myth that I think we should debunk, and this is— we're only going to get this question done, I think, and maybe we'll close out after that. But it's a big question, and it's not a myth, it's a comment. I think Shopify Shopify have screwed up the world of technology pricing and service pricing. They have delivered an unbelievable product. Now let's call a spade a spade, out of the box for as little as $39 a month. What you get for that $39 plus commission and everything else is absolutely phenomenal if you consider where we were back in the early 2000s and how expensive it was to do stuff like this kind of absurdity is crazy. It has screwed the world of marketplace service providers like you wouldn't believe. So I actually— I'm gonna— this is my myth for us to debunk right now: marketplace service providers are cheap relative to what they have invested in technology, people, and the important piece here for me is relationships. The marketplace world is small, and if you can get a marketplace system integrator that has great commercial relationships in markets you want to penetrate, that may be the single best investment you make during your technology, um, investment program. How wrong am I in this one?

So one, you are not wrong. I always say that the Shopify pricing situation has created an expectation from brands and vendors that because we've experienced this once, we want to experience it all over. And to your point about, you know, these service providers in the marketplace space, those— that's the— that goes back to my word that I mentioned earlier. This is— this, this, this happens at a board level where you have the CFO telling the CEO that One, I either don't have the budget or this is, this is in excess of my budget, so we can't do this. But what, what the nuance that gets lost is, is that unless you have somebody at the table that has an experience akin to the people on this podcast, me and you, you can very quickly get to the dreaded word no because of what you just explained. Because people do not understand that in the marketplace space, I always say this, this is one of the, the most interesting parts in e-commerce because we all know one another, we know the service providers are, and drum roll, we— unless you understand the relationships that these service providers have, you can essentially be wasting money because of not understanding who has relationships with who. I know this sounds like a giant edition of word salad, this last like 2 minutes, but it's really important to understanding that when we're talking about payments and, um, services and, um, budgets, this, this is like one of those things that you get like, it's literally like this. No, no, no.

I just want to take, take a lead there and I I'm going to go back to the Shopify thing for just a sec because I actually think they've even screwed their own ecosystem. Like, there are brands out there who pay more for their Klaviyo fees than they do to run an entire business, which again is absolutely absurd. But that's not a reflection of Klaviyo pricing, it's a reflection of where Shopify have built it. And that's for another day, but I just want to make that point, put it on the record. And Harley, if you're listening, We forgive you. Um, but, but the point I was going to make about human relationships, it's so important in marketplaces because it makes the wheel turn. So when we were at eBay, I think I mentioned at one of the other ones, we were the first two employees, me and this guy called Sean Douglas. We were the first two employees to visit sellers anywhere in the world. So we, we really had a lot of focus on what we were doing, and we got attention from Laurie Norrington, who was our then CEO. I remember she came to Dublin for, some sort of SLT meeting, and we have just gone through all of the non-problem SLT frameworks. We actually got to look at them. I've actually invited Laurie on the show, so hopefully we'll get to meet her in the coming weeks. And she told me that she was so enthused by the idea of the content. What's been enthused by was where I would probably take Sean was working with Argosy. He didn't know how this human relationship thing works. He was working with Argosy, a guy called Pete Harris, and he said— Pete said to him, Sean, I have 300 TomTom sat navs sat in my warehouse looking at me, laughing at me because we can't sell them in the business. Exactly. And he said, what, what can you do with them? And we were sitting there looking at the homepage and we were thinking, what can we do? We saw this Vodafone ad And there's this advertising team that owned this space, and we weren't exactly sure who owned it, but we knew what we said to ourselves, wouldn't it be great if we could get a product up there that people could see? So everything that comes to the homepage, bang, here's a deal. So the way it worked was we said, Pete, give us your best price. We went back to the advertising team and said, what would it cost for a day to own that space? They said, I don't know, 20 grand or whatever it was going to be. We knew that the revenue through that one product at 400 units wasn't going to be enough to get the space, but we knew that if we could get more products in there, monetizing the space and paper itself would happen really quickly. So we got approval because we were able to go meet those guys, show them what we wanted to do, and they said, yeah, whatever, we give it a shot because we believe it would be an interesting experiment. So out of that was born the Daily Deals program. So we went from selling— sorry, we went from the idea to selling 342 TomToms in 45 minutes. Guess what happened once the deal closed after 45 minutes? He rang Sean and said, by the way, Sean, I've just found another 500 of them in another warehouse. What can you do for me tomorrow? And, and that was it. That's how the deals program started on eBay. And that, that's now like a almost a billion dollar contributor to the business, uh, over the, uh, over the course of a 12-month period. So The idea of the human element here is so important because you take it, it was a commercial challenge, was recognized by a product fit for where this could go, and someone understands human behavior. And then you go talk to the person who's going to actually make it happen for you. That is how I— that's, that was how it felt all commerce was done in the mid-2000s. And that's why marketplaces became really exciting because you could leverage traffic to do things that you couldn't do on your own website. That is what— that to me is the single biggest reason why you should be on a marketplace. Boom! How's that truth bomb?

So one, we've on this podcast, um, today we've had, um, the indications that eBay has essentially created, um, two things that we do not know that they essentially did. I didn't know about the Daily Deal story, but it makes total sense, number one. Number two, you know, when you talk about data being used for pricing, all those things. I think to summarize today's like 3 questions, um, in like a nice, nice big handshake is: one, brands and executives need to understand where they are going. What do I mean with that? What marketplace— what is the nuance behind the marketplace that you are joining? Is that a service marketplace or is it a non-service marketplace? So that's number one. Number two, understand the, the whole scope of that platform. What do I mean with that? What are the costs? Required, and what are the investments required? Now remember Vinny's teacher that is now looking down on him, basically saying that costs and investments are two different words. And lastly, and I think this is a big deal because maybe I'm old school, Vinny, but I think your, your last truth bomb about, you know, doing the daily deals understanding the, the, the partnerships, relationships, the human partnership element to, you know, your service providers, your fees that you are paying. I know this sounds like a giant word salad in which anything could be seen as good, but I think it's really important that listeners understand that in order to scale and grow a marketplace This doesn't happen overnight. This doesn't happen in 30 days.

No, but before we close that, I think it's important as well that we recognize marketplaces are not all a bed of roses, okay? They require work, and that's the point that you're making now. We will dedicate an entire episode to looking at all the challenges. I'm going to call it the 8 Mile episode because once you throw them all out on the table, a bit like 8 Mile where Eminem was in that rap battle and he decided he's going to try out all the terrible stuff about himself so that guy could say nothing to him. So it was like water off a duck's back. We're going to throw all those, those challenging scenarios out in an episode and talk through them, because like any business challenge, you just have to figure out a way to get past it, and you figure out, is it for you? And one of the questions you asked me in here, debunking a myth coming into it that we probably didn't get to, such as how do I know if marketplaces are right for me? And they are for everyone just because of the proliferation of products. But I want to leave you with a story. You know me, I love a story about where all this stuff started from. And there's a business, uh, Brickworkwear, they're called. They're up on the border of Northern Ireland and South of Ireland. They've got this lovely little spot because they can ride the border and have the UK postal account and an Irish postal account both at once. But they were getting into a situation where they were third-generation family business, maybe second actually, and the dad was handing over the business to his two sons. Now they were mature guys from different industries. I think one was an accountant, one was an engineer. Two brothers got involved and they wanted to keep the family business going, but they said to their dad, I want to bring the business online. And he said, not a hope. And they said, look, Dad, there's all this great stuff happening. We got Amazon and eBay. He said, nope, not going to do it. So after a few months of them researching, they said, look, we can see there's products here that we have the where people are buying and selling. We should be there. And at that moment in time, he took off his left shoe. This is the true story. I can ask Paul to verify this if you need. He took off his left shoe and said, if you can sell this shoe online, I will let you bring our business online. And the two guys were looking at each other going, what the hell are we gonna do? So like any good, uh, person in e-com, they rolled up their sleeves, they decided, where can we sell it? They went onto eBay. They listed a left, left shoe. I think it was a size 9 with, with a matching lace. That was an important feature. So feature benefit matching— don't want to shoot without a lace unless it's Velcro, which I suppose is still a shoe. Um, and they, uh, they listed it on eBay. After week 1, they were sitting there looking at each other going, our dreams are over. Week 2, nothing happening. Week 3, a priest from Scotland sent him a message in the little notes thing and said 'Can I just verify that this is in fact the left shoe of this style with a lace attached?' Lace is important to the priest. He's obviously a very practical man. I like that. And they said yes, and the priest duly purchased. They packaged it up and sent it to him. The rest, as they say, Hendrik, it's history. So every, every problem has a solution.

And once again, this highlights something that was said in a previous episode of you don't understand how your products are going to be used, thus think about marketplaces to ensure that you can move your products. Vinny, where did this time go?

We have outstayed our welcome for sure. I think we owe it to the people to wrap this episode up. Um, thanks so much as ever for your time, your insight, and your inspiration for some of the, the great conversation that we're having. Uh, we're gonna debunk some myths, I think, again on our next episode. Uh, but thanks so much for your time and look forward to catching up with you again soon.

Well, the Ostrich Report is now actually also a myth, a Mythbusters episode that nobody knows about.

The Ostrich Report is going to be the thing that everyone is talking about by the end of 2027, maybe. Should be. It'll be one of those things that was good. It'll be one of those shows that was good in hindsight. People will say, oh, we should have watched that back then. And that's, that's okay with me. If we, if we make it famous back in 2027, that's okay with me. But, uh, you go have a good afternoon. Thank you for the time. This is Vinny O Brien Hendrick from RNW Commerce. This has been The Ostrich Report, and we thank you for listening. See ya.

Cheers.

We are done.