The Soul of the Sidewalk: What NRF Didn’t Teach Me at 328 Malcolm X Boulevard

Welcome to Struggle Bus, a Vspot show. I am Vinny O Brien, your host, or as my friends love to call me, hey, you in the bushes. Uh, a few months ago I tried to do this with my guest today, Kamez Woods Black, and we had this amazing discussion that didn't follow through in the recording. Unfortunately, there were tears. There were some laughs, but mostly there was just us trying to pull it all back together. But I decided it was so bad to not get it recorded that I'd fly all the way to New York to say hello to my friend of nearly 2 years now, Trinette.

Yeah.

Thanks for having me over.

Hey friend, welcome to Harlem.

I'm so happy to be here. It's an amazing place. A lot of family-run businesses, so very similar to Ireland. Um, but I, I've, I suppose in the spirit of the Scroggle Bus, my opening question to you, while you're not strictly from the e-com world, which I've got to call out, you've been involved in marketing and branding and media for such a long time. But I want to go back. I think there's something in that place that you grew up, not your family home, but Sylvia's, your parents' restaurant.

Mm-hmm.

How does a brand like that endure through the '60s, the '70s, '80s, like it's something that a lot of conferences try to capture is the heart and the essence and the authenticity, which I hate the word.

Yeah.

Tell me about the authenticity and the, the life that was growing up in Sylvia's. Ooh.

Okay. So growing up Sylvia's, as, as I like to call it, the first thing that pops into my head is community. It's community. And, you know, sitting here in Harlem, you know, at my friend's restaurant, it's a testimony to what it means to be in community. So a community is a group of people that have like beliefs and share a culture and that are like there for each other. And that's what it was like growing up, growing up Sylvia's. It was, you know, of course, working closely with your family, but the guests that came in became our extended family. And with that, you know, you feel responsible for your family. So then you start to acquire this overwhelming feeling that you're responsible for this community and this family. So it is the foundation of who I am today. So growing up Sylvia's meant like a boot camp in humanity and being your brother's keeper.

But there was no rules on the wall. It was just what you saw in front of you, or how did you as a kid pick all these things up?

As a kid, it was very organic. I have to give my grandmother some more credit than saying that it was just organic because, you know, she made sure that my cousins and I and my siblings, like, we weren't allowed to argue with one another.

I ain't got to me.

So for instance, it's Saturday, it's busy, the restaurant is packed. You know, we're being— we're running in multiple directions and everything. And My cousin may have, you know, not passed me something properly or snapped a little attitude with me, and then I'm gonna snap an attitude back with her. And before you know it, like, my grandmother's like, "Hey, you know, what are you guys doing? Yeah, cut it out. Kiss, make up. Kiss, make up." And she would literally make us kiss and make up. So she was very intentional about making sure that we loved and respect one another. And she also made sure that that every person that came in the door, that we respected the fact that they chose to spend their money with us. Amazing. And that was never lost, whether the person was kind or whether the person was being a real jerk, you know, she was just like that old philosophy of the customer is always right.

Yeah.

Yeah. She took that like really to heart.

When we were talking before we At the start of the interview, you were describing something to me that resonated. I grew up in this tiny village, which I told you, with the guy with the long arm and all that goes with it, right? I grew up being a butcher. So when I was 13, I wanted a job and went in with my mom and said, can I get a job? And these guys gave me one. And in Ireland, there's only like 2 or 3 organic butchers. So they raise cattle in the field across the road, they bring them in, they kill. So it was an amazing place to learn. But Mr. Nolan was the guy who ran the store, and it's there since 1886. And I think to this day that I, I'm still the only kid that went in there and still called him Mr. Nolan until like I was an adult and he died and everything else. But you described something to me about the people that come in. Sometimes people come in with no money and they were still taken care of. And we used to do that in the butchers. It used to happen on Christmas Eve, weirdly, for some reason. There was like 3 or 4 people, and I won't mention their names now, but they used to come in when the store closed because for years Mr. Nolan puts away stuff, keeps it for them. They have the dignity then of coming in and getting it and receiving the stuff as though they're a regular customer, and he doesn't make any pretense about it. That kind of authenticity you described to me as well, like, how do you carry that through then? You're, you know, you're in your 30s now. How do you bring that through into adult life and go, this is what I want to be, or how I want to go about life?

Well, I make sure that whatever I do, it has to have a give-back component. You know, I don't do anything that is just going to benefit me.

Okay.

You know, I'm all about—

Can I ask you just at that point, does that make it easier to say no to stuff or more difficult because you know that on one hand you might line your pockets, but on this other side, it's just doesn't sit with you?

At this ripe old age of 30 plus, you know, almost 32 times.

Eh, let's edit this one. Carry on.

Exactly. Um, saying no is, it's a lot easier now. You know, I was, I'm super intentional now about, um, setting up boundaries.

Okay.

And, and understanding what, what my give is going to be.

Okay.

And making sure that it's an old—

it's—

I was about to say there's an old Bible verse, but that's like—

you could give me a Bible verse now, I'd be super impressed.

I am about to give you one. Do not cast your pearls onto swine because surely they will trample them.

Wow.

And it's really, you know, it's something that I had to learn, like with boundaries.

Okay.

You know, you have to establish boundaries because you just can't just freely, you know, give people access to you and your network and net worth and all of those things. You have to be shrewd. You have to be as shrewd as snakes and as, you know, gentle as a lamb. Look at me with all the Bible verses.

Look like a flower but be the serpent underneath. Yes. I think in this Hamnet season.

And it's easy. It's really some— it's very easy to do. It is such an easy principle to be applied, you know, as far as making sure that what you're doing has a positive impact on others.

I think the impact word is probably the most challenge to me because it's not something I do enough of. It's looking for the impact outside of what the immediate goal is. So it certainly, as we've talked through the afternoon, it's become really apparent to me. But when we first started talking, we talked about tech partners that you have and all the things that you were doing and trying to do at that time. But one of the key things for you was to try and empower local businesses of Harlem to become more educated and tech savvy and aware of the options that are available to them. Compared to where we were, let's say, 18 months ago, has that progressed or is it stalled? Not your work per se, but that education part. Like, we could be anywhere in the world right now in the restaurant that we're in, PB Brasserie. If you're out there, 10% discount if you put Vinny and Co. Kidding. But how do you feel about it now, like 18 months on?

Oh, 18 months on, you know, the vision is still there. You know, the vision is still there. The commitment is still there. And it's showing up in, in different ways. So I know that really sounds vague. However, what I realize is that what may have worked, um, pre-pandemic or during the pandemic may not work post-pandemic, and especially, um, in the, the, uh, administration that we find ourselves in.

Yeah.

So, but your gifts have a way of always making room for themselves. So as far as being able to continue to empower the small business community, yeah, you know, I'm still able to do that. It's not just directly with the restaurants now. Now it's, you know, looking to help artists, you know, and giving them, um, a space and creating an ecosystem for them. It's also, um, the small business community, making sure that I'm supporting and partnering with organizations that that's their primary goals. And then I come in to, to amplify the mission by, you know, going after the strategic partners, advising them on how they can you know, get the funding that they need, the resources, or even just pointing them in a direction that they might not have necessarily seen as a profit center.

Okay.

You know, so that part of it remains.

Okay. Thinking beyond that, like we've spoken, I think every few months for the last 18 months or so, and The administration change you talk about last year is exhausting. The Struggle Bus is about not telling sob stories, but it's about creating empathy through shared learning. But maybe in your own words, articulate what the last 12 months has been like for you and where you find yourself and where the energy is going or where it's been drained from. And can you maybe let the listeners know how it is to be you and in the world that we're living in?

Absolutely. So the past 12 months, wow. I'm gonna start with a positive. You know, it really showed that, that I'm more resilient than I think. And I, I think the word is often overused, especially for women, because, you know, we really don't want to— I don't want to have to be resilient, you know what I mean?

Not every day.

Not, not every day. But really, every day I have to be resilient.

It even strikes me that being resilient every day is not being resilient. It's something completely different to me.

It's completely, it's completely different. You know, the past 12 months, it was a beautiful full circle moment. That's what I'm gonna say.

Okay.

You know, it was beautiful full circle moment in the sense of, you know, I was very focused on a particular part of my business and all of my energies day in and day out went towards, you know, aligning with the particular partners that I needed, you know, securing the, the funding, and watching all of that just kind of like crumble and go by the wayside. Because as an African-American woman in, in America, you know, where I would be able to secure funding and sponsorship and partnerships Yeah, um, it kind of dried up. It was like, oh my gosh, I don't want to— can't associate, don't want to, you know, labeled a DEI enabler, you know, must withdraw, must withdraw.

It's so fucked up, isn't it?

Yeah, it really is. It, it really is. And I, I was so— I know I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was, because I'm like, well, I'm helping like all businesses. Yeah, but it was still coming from, from this source. However, um, the, the great part is that I was able to— the, the great part of what transpired is that I was able to identify what was happening, right? I was also able to identify that I had never taken a break I literally had never been off. Ever.

Ever.

Ever. I've never been off. I've been on since I was 13.

And that's only 20 years.

And I had to give myself permission to retract.

Have you said that out loud before?

Not until, not until I, I had no choice. And my husband, he, You know, God bless him. He's, he's amazing and so supportive. And he was just like, you know, Shonaz, just take a break.

Yeah.

And I was just like, I don't think you, like, I can't, I can't take a break. I don't, I don't take breaks. You know, I walk extra fast. You know, I make sure that every step counts because in my mind, my foundation is, is just like when you're in a, in a restaurant growing up, Sylvia's, you know, you never left off the floor. Of the operations, you know, the guests facing, with your hands empty.

Yeah, it's like a lazy load.

It's exactly—

my wife says that all the time.

Yeah, like, come on, it's something you could have picked up, something you could have straightened, something needed your attention. And so I applied that to, to my life and, and to, of course, my business. And, you know, this year my, my company will be 16.

Wow, congratulations.

And thank you. And so the past 12 months, um, I, I, I had to— I shut off for a bit. I shut off for, for a good amount of time. And part of it was I didn't have a choice.

Yeah.

Because I hit a wall. I hit a wall. I hit a wall And I had, you know, I felt like I had knocked on every door, I had taken every meeting, I had reached out to every sector of business.

Frankly, it's how we ended up speaking, right?

Yeah, that's exactly— that's how we ended up speaking. And then I decided that it was necessary for me to just stop. And another Bible verse, peace be still. I just had to stop and recognize what had happened was a direct result of the change in the economy, in the economy. Yeah, you know, the appetite to do business with certain sets of people, you know. And I had to really, um, give myself some space to even mourn that. You know, and they even say it out loud. I was like, is this really happening? So I gave myself like a bit of a like, oh, okay. And then, um, I had to say, all right, okay, well, I'm still who I am, you know. I'm, I'm still an amazing marketer. I'm still great at strategic partnerships, and someone is going to be bold enough or courageous enough to say, hey, I'm still doing work with minorities.

Like, so many small points to pick up on there, but yes, they are. We presented at NRF and we did our own gig, which I was saying to you earlier, but our message, the last slide was be bold, like stop sitting on your hands and be bold. Was against the backdrop of a Roman statue with a small— I just wanted to say that line. I couldn't, but that idea—

That was bold.

That was bold. But it was be bold, be courageous. And one of the things I like— we've had a very different conversation the second time to the first time, but talking to you and enjoying food here together with you was where I think so many brands could benefit from someone like you. It's the culture. You are culture, if that sounds right.

Like, I can—

and culture beats strategy a million times.

A million times, because that is what we're all selling and that is what we're all buying. And at the root of it, that's who we are. It's a cultural It's, it's a culture. It's a, it's a collection of, of beliefs. It's, it's, it's, um, it's what attracts you to—

So the way you talk, it's the way you see people. It's— Yeah. You're— I don't think you've ever said customer. You said guests, you said friends, you've said community. You've never once said the word customer. Ever. No. I, I, I honestly can't— in all the conversations we've had, I don't think you've ever said the word.

No, I don't. Um, I don't use the word customer because my grandmother was very, very intentional about never saying a customer. She said always— she said they're our guests. And once you sat down in the restaurant, she would say, oh, after your first meal, now you're family.

Again, these are like cultural reference points and stuff, but it was never set up as a business per se. It was more about that space. Is that fair? Like, it was a lifestyle business before lifestyle businesses really existed in that community.

Yeah, it definitely, it definitely was.

What year did it get set up in?

Uh, 1962.

Wow.

So it was, it was the meeting space. It was that safe space before safe spaces were needed, were needed and was a term. It was the home that the Southerners that were escaping the atrocities that were happening in the South. This is where they came to feel familiar and to embrace that culture and to taste that culture and to be able to start up a conversation with a stranger next to you that knew what you were talking about.

Yeah.

Or that was interested in knowing what you were talking about. You know, so it could be someone that grew up, you know, in the same town that you were from in the South, or it could be someone who was visiting New York and wanted to come to Harlem and, you know, had a vested interest in connecting with the culture, so they wanted to come to Sylvia's.

You should see your face now. I've not seen you this lit up in a long time.

I can picture all these different moments.

But it must be an incredible thing to be able to draw on, like even just for everyday life. And you talk about resilience and all these other things, but they're happy memories. Like they're the sort of things that drive communities forward and countries forward and people forward. And there's not many brands that started in the '60s that still have that same name and that same soul. And so hand on heart, big honest question for you now. What's the best thing on the menu today? Oh my gosh. So I've come in from Ireland. I'm going to have to Sylvia's. What should I have?

Oh my God, this is so hard.

Okay. No, no, you got to pick one.

I have to pick one?

I'm letting you off the hook.

Smothered pork chops.

With what, mustard?

No. Apple sauce? No, they're smothered in gravy, in a savory gravy with onions and green peppers. That's my favorite, like my favorite go-to dish. If, if I'm, um, if I've been out of town for a while and I haven't been at the restaurant, or, you know, I'm just missing my grandmother or my mom. Yeah, you know, I'm going to the restaurant, I'm gonna get a smothered pork chop with collard greens, potato salad, and black-eyed peas, and I'm gonna start the meal off with cornbread.

Nice.

And a half and half, which is called an uptown, which is an Arnold Palmer in the rest of the world. Half lemonade, half iced tea.

Amazing. Wow.

That's going to make you feel like your granny is there giving you the biggest, biggest hug. And it's just the nice combination of, you know, um, savory. And, and the potato salad has a bit of a sweetness to it. And then you have the cornbread.

It's made of some honey?

Well, I can't tell you. No, it's not honey. It's not honey, honey.

It sounds incredible. And growing up a butcher, pork is one of the meats that most— like, people buy lamb, buy beef, like chicken, never— not so much pork.

Yeah.

But the owner, Mr. Nolan, he like— he always showed me like the things that no one else buys that you should taste. Pork, like, I love, love pork.

Pork is so, so good.

Pork is so underrated.

It really is. There's this, um, Portuguese butcher in Newark, New Jersey that's supposed to have like the best pork. You know, I was so tempted to go over and buy a good piece, um, for the holidays, but I didn't make it.

Maybe next year you and I can do it. We're, we're getting close on time and I try to keep this to a point. You've already talked over butcher. I knew that was gonna happen. But at this point in time, I'm gonna ask you, if your career was a song right now, what would it be? If my career—

I Did It My Way.

Frank.

Frank.

The original gangster. There's a photo of him on—

Oh my gosh.

Go on, you go again. Go ahead. Wait, that— let's forget that. Go again.

I'm a Native New Yorker. Do you know that song?

No. Liz Abai.

Oh my gosh, I'm going to have to look it up. It's an old song and my husband has been telling me that I—

Are we going to name check your husband?

No, I'm going to name check the song.

Okay, go for it.

I'm a native New Yorker, you should know the score, the score by now.

We don't have to pay for this.

Native New Yorker. We may have to.

Christ, I don't know if I've got that kind of budget. Sponsors.

We're gonna get a sponsor.

Yeah, we need a new one.

I have no reception back here.

Okay, well, I'm gonna look it up. I'm gonna, I'm gonna share it in the show notes.

It's New Yorker. It talks about taking the train. It talks about the attitude of being a woman in New York. That could be it. Or I Did It My Way. I know I have to choose one. Sorry.

You could go from one to two and then maybe leave us with So what's it mean now? I'm gonna let you give me the final say on what, what can we do differently to make it better and more fair and more equal to make sure that you can start achieving some of the things that you want to do for your friends and your family and your guests from Hawaii?

Ooh, what can we do?

What, what? Yeah, hold us to account as an industry.

What should we do better as an industry? Don't label, you know, don't label. Don't get caught up on, on, on the label of it all. Um, hone into the story and take, take out the, the, um, the identity markers, okay? And just really go to the heart of the story, because at the heart of the story and where that culture is, it's something that every person can identify with. So just find that commonality because it exists within everything that we think is so specific to a culture. It's not that common thread.

Human story.

The human story. And that's what makes legacy brands. That's what makes brands last for 60 years. You know, Sylvia's is still here for 63— is this going— it's just gonna be 64, 64 years. And it's because everyone can identify. Every single country has visited Sylvia's, and it, and it endures. Yeah, because it's that commonality, that feeling that, that you get when, when you walk in, when there's, there's no pretense. The food is, is made with love. We're just going for— we, we're not trying to be anybody else, you know. And as for me and, and my business, I love to be able to identify the source of what my partners stand for, find that commonality, and be able to serve it up for the world.

And you do that in abundance. Uh, Queen of Hospitality, thank you so much for bringing me to your home.

Thank you.

I'm very appreciative of it, and I hope we get to do it again. And I hope so. If you want to come back over the pond, I'm coming. Troy Sappi. But thank you so much for joining me on the struggle bus.

Thank you, my friends. The struggle continues, and I'm glad about it.

Amen.

Cornbread house!