The Gut Health Doctor Reveals the 5 Top Tips to a Happy Belly - Dr. Megan Rossi

We call this collection our gut microbiome. And it's this microbiome that's brought the fame because it's game changing. Honestly, it is. So many of the things that we thought human cells did on their own, like hormone regulation, vitamin production, you know, brain control. Actually, we've discovered it's not human cells doing that at all. It's the microbiome living within us that's having all of those effects.

Welcome back, everyone, to the mindvalley podcast. Today we're going to be talking about your gut microbiome and how to improve your gut microbiome. So a lot of people don't understand just how important the gut microbiome is, but a couple of statistics, right? Roughly 3% of your body mass is made up of non human cells. And these, this is the bacteria that is in your throat and in your gut. And science over the last 10 years has found that this bacteria has a profound impact on every aspect of our life, from energy to moods. But when we can take care of this bacteria, the gut bacteria, in the best possible way, so many aspects of our health suddenly improve. And so today we're going to be talking to Megan Rossi. She is the author of a book called called eat more plants. And just right off the bat, I want you guys to know this is not about becoming vegetarian. So how to eat more plants is available on Amazon. The subtitle is transform Your health with 30 plant based foods per week. So she's going to talk about how to eat more plants because that's important to us and most of us don't eat more plants. But again, those of you who are not into vegetarianism or veganism, don't worry, this is not a conversion thing. And I just had a conversation with Megan, she is not into that as well. Okay, so what we're going to be covering today is basically how to improve your gut microbiome, how to improve the diversity of what you're putting in your body, especially with plants. You're going to learn about the vegetables. You should be paying attention to how to optimize your gut. How can gut conditions help reveal health issues that we might have? The metabolic relationship between our gut and, and how many calories we are burning. We're really excited to have this guest because the gut microbiome is just so absolutely important. Now about Megan. She's known as the gut health doctor. She's a practicing dietitian, nutritionist and leading research fellow at King's College London and the founder of Gut Health Clinic where she leads A team of gut specialists, dietitians. Megan is an Instant Sunday Times best selling author and is the brilliant mind behind the books and Eat yourself healthy, eat more, live well, love your gut and how to eat more plants. She's been recognized as a Business Insider Top 100 Coolest People in food and drink and was named Young Australian Achiever of the year in the UK in 2020. So I'm so excited to have Megan Rossi join us today on the mindvalley podcast. Megan, welcome.

It's an absolute pleasure to talk about clearly my favorite topic and something that really is life changing. You know, as, as a clinician, as a researcher, I see targeting the gut microbiome as being such an incredibly empowering way to take control of our health and happiness. So really excited to get into the nitty gritty of it all.

So let's, let's get started with the, the concept of the gut. Maybe it'll be great if you could explain to our listeners here why is your gut so important?

Yeah, look, I think that's a really important question because we've all heard about gut health as being a hot trend, but what it is exactly is not often communicated very accur. If you think about it, we have this 9 meter long digestive tube that delivers food from entry all the way to exit. Now, that nine meters is our gut and that is incredibly important for three key reasons. The one which we've known about for a very, very long time comes down to digestion. So if we don't have a good gut lining, no matter how healthy the food we put into our body is, we can't get that food from that tube into our blood to feed things like our skin, our hair, our brain, etc. So really, to get the most out of our food and digestion, we need to have good gut health. The second one, I think more and more people are starting to be aware of it because of COVID 19 and that's the fact that 70% of our immune system lives in the gut.

Really? Yeah, 70%, absolutely.

And we've seen it again for a long time with the cold and flu. People who've got better gut health are less likely to become unwell with having cold and flu and taking days off work. But actually, more recently, the science is uncovered similarly with COVID 19. So if you've got really good gut health, you're a much lower risk of becoming unwell if you do develop COVID 19. And again anecdotally, I see that with all of my clients in clinic. So yeah, really powerful, but it's really the third element of this 9 meter long digestive truth that's brought the fame to the concept of gut health over the last couple of years. And that is the fact that we contain these trillions of microorganisms as you highlighted before, the bacteria. But actually it's not just bacteria. We have the viral component called the viro, we have the fungal component called, called the microbiome, and we've also even got some parasites which actually all synergistically work together. And we call this collection our gut microbiome. And it's this microbiome that's brought the fame because it's game changing, Honestly it is. So many of the things that we thought human cells did on their own, like hormone regulation, vitamin production, you know, brain control, actually we've discovered it's not human cells doing that at all. It's the microbiome living within us that's having all of those effects.

That's, that's fascinating. Right. I was reading serotonin, which is the happiness chemical. 90% of serotonin is produced in the gut and then it goes up through the vagus nerve into our brain. And so if we don't have good gut health, it really messes our moods, it makes us less happy.

Yeah, I mean that's a, that's a really interesting one about the serotonin. I mean, interestingly, we have to be careful about that because although the serotonin is, you know, producing the gut, it can't pass that blood brain barrier, unlike obviously the serotonin produced in our brain. But like you said, there's an alternate mechanism. But we know that the microbiome actually produces a range of other chemicals which they produce thanks to digestion of food, some of which can actually pass that blood brain barrier and have that profound impact on our mood.

I see, well, thank you for correcting me on that. Well that, that, that is fascinating to know. So tell us about how does the gut impact emotions and mood?

Yeah, look, this whole gut brain connection again, you know, we've known about it for a very long time that our gut and brains connected. If you think about all the metaphors for emotions, I've got a gut feeling someone gives me the shit. So those sorts of things we've known about it, right. We've all had the butterflies in our tummy, right. And that comes down to the fact that there is literally hundreds of millions of nerves that connect the gut and the brain. And for those who really love the science, that's called the enteric nervous system. But we've more recently discovered a new key player to this gut brain communication. And that, of course, is those microbes. Those microbes are also having a really important role in communicating to our brain. And there's, you know, three different mechanisms to which they do that. One is via the vagus nerves. This communication pathway kind of zips up, tells the brain what's going on. The other is via the immune system, kind of like an alarm system, I guess. If the microbes sense something's going on, they alert the immune system to produce inflammatory chemicals which activate the brain. And then the other one is what we alluded to before. Around kind of like the postal service, the microbes produce chemicals, some of which pass that blood brain barrier and activate parts of the brain. So it's really fascinating mechanistic research which has now been translated into clinical trials. And I talk about one study in the book in particular is my favorite trial because anecdotally as a clinician for 12 or so years, I've seen that targeting our gut health can have profound impact on people who have things like depression. But without those clinical trials, there was obviously limitations because that was anecdotal evidence, and I'm very much about the evidence base. So I was so excited when this trial came out called the Smiles trial. First landmark study to show in a very controlled way that three months of a gut boosting diet, and I talk a lot about that sort of weighty eat of eating in the book, can have remarkable improvements in people's mental health. So half of them got this gut boosting diet. The other half, yeah, got kind of like a counselling. It was like the control group essentially to make sure it wasn't just, you know, the participants seeing a dietitian in the diet group. So half was diet, half was kind of befriending counseling. When they reviewed their mental health after three months on either of the interventions, they found those in the diet group, 32% of them, had a significant improvement in their depression scores, which would classify them as no longer clinical depressed. In the control group, that was only 8%. And yeah, I mean, I find that just so stark in terms of the power of nourishing our gut microbiome through the right nutrition. And that was one of the.

That's, that's, that's really, really incredible to know. And so you spoke about this, this study and people eating gut boosting foods. What. Give us an example of that. Let's talk about that.

Yeah, so when I was writing the latest book how to eat more plants. I. Because, you know, from the first book, everyone was like, okay, great, I've got my, my gut symptoms under control. It's very much about getting on top of IBS and bloating and all those things, which affects about 30% of people. And they're like, okay, but now I know that my gut microbes are important for things like my hormonal health, my mental health, so how do I eat for that? So I kind of hid myself away during COVID during the pandemic and tried to pull together all the research to understand what are the key principles. And I came up with these five key principles which the science shows that four following that is really the optimal way to maximize your gut health and reap all those benefits that potentially we have.

I love this. So the five principles for optimizing your gut health, is this what you're going to take us on right now?

Absolutely. So it'll be interesting to see which ones you think you currently apply in your own life and which ones maybe you need to work on a little bit more. So the first one is mostly plants, but as you alluded to in the intro, that doesn't necessarily mean only plants. The foundations of our diets absolutely needs to be based on plants because of these key nutrients which nourish our gut bacteria. So essentially our bacteria and our microbiomes favorite food group is plants. So mostly plants. But hey, you know what, if you enjoy animal products, layer them on top of that. It's up to you. And that's where I think this, this area of personalization comes through, where, you know, you can have incredible gut health but still eat animal products and talk more about, I guess, the mechanisms of that. And I know you've got a strong opinion on that. So that's the first one. Enjoy mostly plants doesn't necessarily need to be only plants. The second one is diversity all the way. And I think this is a fairly new concept that hasn't necessarily been embedded into our guidelines because, like, you know, for a long time we've known plants are healthy, right? But this concept of diversity hasn't come through until we've discovered the research around the microbiome, which shows people who eat more different types of plants have better gut health than those who eat the same plants on a repeat. So I think this is an important one where this study actually looked at vegans versus omnivores. So with the vegans, obviously plants, only omnivores still ate plenty of plants, but also ate animal products as well. And what they show that being vegan or I'm not didn't dictate if you had good gut health. The key principle of those diets was actually that plant diversity. So where I say diversity of the way, I Recommend Getting in 30 different types of plants per week which come from what I call the super sex. So there are six different plant based food groups. I'm not going to quiz you, don't worry, I can see the fear in your eyes. But you've got your whole grains, you've got your nuts and seeds, you've got your fruits, your veg, your legumes, your beans and pulses and your herbs and your spices. Now each of those six categories actually provides our gut microbiome with an array of different types of plant chemicals, things like these phytochemicals which we can't actually necessarily put into capsules yet. So we actually need to be getting all of those supersets six to really maximizing the nutrition that our gut microbiome really needs to, to flourish. And again, I like people to reflect on their own diets. Have you had something from the Super 6 today? The vast majority of us, even if we've got a very healthy diet, haven't because we've been told we have to have fruit and veg and maybe some whole grains. We've kind of forgotten about the other three really important plant based food groups which offer, which offer like a whole host of, you know, tens of thousands of plant chemicals, you know, mother nature has hanging over us. We can't manufacture on our own and feed the gut microbiome. So that was the second one. The third principle is called, is about going for whole, not refined. And I think this is another important principle. As we know, veganism has been really trending and with that food industry has followed it and have made a whole lot of these ultra processed versions of these vegan burgers and vegan sausage rolls and all the rest of it.

And actually do you, do you recommend those, those products like Impossible Burger?

No, I don't. You know that's this whole concept of going for whole and not refined. So what we know, the more refined the plant is, the more goodness that's been stamped out of it. And therefore actually the end product doesn't have all those amazing phytochemicals because the processing kills them. Therefore when we eat them they're not having that health benefit. So you know, instead of having these ultra processed burgers in the, in the book, I've got recipes to make, you know, 15min chickpea burgers that, you know, are really simple and are so nutrient dense. The other thing about this concept of going for whole, not refined is the fact that some of the research that we're doing at King's College in London at the moment is based on food additives. And what we're seeing based on some of the pilot studies is actually some of these food additives which, although they've been regarded as safe, actually are thought to have negative impacts on our gut microbiome. And that's because when they were going through all the safety testing, that was before we understood about the importance of our gut microbiome. So in particular we're looking at a group called emulsifiers and there's 60 different types of emulsifiers. And we did a review and they're found in about 30% of all of the foods we eat on a daily basis. So we're all getting exposed to a lot of emulsifiers.

Right, right. And I'm so happy you said that because these artificial meat patties, multiple people I've spoken to have said that this is incredibly bad for you. And it's also reflecting on the stock price when, beyond meat, for example, when IPO, it was a massive IPO and now their stock has fallen from 150 to about, to about 14 bucks and it's continuing to drop as people are beginning to see that these burgers are, are, that this artificial meat products are actually not very healthy.

I know. I mean it was something that I think again was very, a trending investment. Yeah. And if, you know, people had kind of done the research with some of the more the unbiased research is, it probably would have saved them quite a lot.

Right, so. So what you were saying. So let's repeat the first three points again. Point number one was the first key idea was.

Yeah, mostly plants.

Mostly plants.

Doesn't need to, doesn't need to be only plants. Diversity, Diversity all the way.

Okay, so diversity. What would be, what were the different food groups and the diversity again?

Yeah, the Super 6. So you've got your whole grains, your nuts and seeds, your fruit.

Could you give us, could you give us an example of the type of foods in each of these categories?

I love this sort of detail. It's really important because actually often we don't know which is which. So whole grains, something like oats or quinoa, legumes is something like chickpeas or lentils or butter beans.

Where would rice fall? Rice would be under whole grains.

So it depends what sort of rice And I think this is where, you know, in the book we talk about that third principle of whole not refined. And, you know, even things like bread, although it may come from a whole grain, actually still is very processed. So what I recommend is we go for the actual whole grain. So something like a wheat berry instead of having something more like a refined, you know, bit of bread or, you know, going for your sourdough. I see veg. You know, it could be cauliflower and broccoli. Your fruit, banana and berries, whatever. Nuts and seeds. So things like it, pistachios, cashews, your seeds, chia seeds, pumpkin seeds and herbs and spices. So things like coriander and chili.

Oh, really? I didn't know herbs and spices were going to be that important, but that's really cool to know. Now, the first two, I'd like more clarity on the first two. Yeah, it was whole grains. And what was the second one?

The. The legumes.

Legumes. Okay, so legumes would be cashew nuts. Would that be a legume?

No, that would come under your nuts section.

Okay. Because I know it's not really a nut, Right?

Yeah, I know. I mean, if we get into the violet, the botanical family.

Legumes would be beans and stuff. So what about just basic white rice that is so common in Asia.

Yeah. So it wouldn't be included in the super sex. So.

And, and why is that? Are you saying rice is bad?

Not that it's bad, it's just that it has been refined and therefore it doesn't contain all of the potential health benefits that it could have if it wasn't.

So, you know, and that's. And that's the third key idea that you're talking about, right?

Yeah.

Where you're not refined.

Yeah, exactly.

Okay, so that. Now it's starting to make a lot of sense. Let's go on to that third idea, what you were talking about previously.

Yeah. So the whole not refined and like I mentioned, that really comes back, you know, to the concept of not missing out on the potential health benefits of these. These plant foods are more refined, therefore a lot of the health benefits being taken away. Plus we actually tend to see added in food additives in these refined products, like I mentioned those emulsifiers. So I recommend what we can. Is. Yeah. Having. Having the whole version.

Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy what we're doing to. To our food. As you're talking. It reminded me of this picture I saw on Reddit was a guy who'd gone to a grocery Store to buy, to buy strawberries. And what he found is that when he put these strawberries in a napkin, the red would come off. They basically spray painted the strawberries to make them redder so that more people would buy them.

Yeah, you know, it's so interesting and what we've actually seen in some of the research that a lot of these slightly bruised fruit and veg, which we've discarded because we've got this obsession with perfection, you know, in terms of the plant world actually they contain more of these things called these polyphenols. And that's because when that a plant under, undergoes, you know, struggle actually it increases the production of these polyphenols which essentially are like fertilizer for our gut bacteria. So we really should be actually starting to embrace these types of, you know, slightly bruised or, you know, wonky fruit and veg now diet because they're slightly more beneficial in terms of those polyphenol content. So yeah, another reason to not waste food that might look not as perfect as we been led to want. Now the fourth principle, I think you'll be happy to know this is where the rice, the white rice comes into play. And that's the concept of inclusion, not exclusion. So what I certainly seen as a clinician is as soon as you're told that you can't have something in your diet, you fixate it on it and you want nothing but it. So the concept of inclusion, not exclusion is you just add in these diverse ranges of plants. And I'm not saying you can't have your favorite food. If you know, you really love white chocolate, which is what I love. Absolutely, go for it, just add in your plants to it. And actually in terms of the scientific research around gut health, it's the same sort of principle. We're showing that actually the power comes from adding in. Yes. You know, if you want to have some red meat, completely fine. Yes, red meat doesn't feed you gut bacteria. But if you want to have it because you enjoy it, you can still live to a century plus, but as long as you're also adding in those plants. So that concept I think is one which really builds a healthier relationship with food and makes sure that this way of eating is more sustainable.

I see, I see. That's beautiful. Let's go on to the next point.

Yep, final one is taste, pause and enjoy. And this really, I guess has been stolen from the Mediterranean way of eating. And you know, all of the, the blue zones where you see them really embrace kind of meal times as A really special part of their day. And you know, we certainly see that it's not just about what you eat, but how you eat can have an impact on things like digestion. If you're struggling with particular things like bloating and altered poops and stuff like that. Actually not necessarily focusing on what you're eating, but the, how you're eating, the chewing the 30 times. Because actually digestion begins with mouth, not only physically, but we have the enzymes in our saliva which start to chemically break down the food. So starting get people to re. Engage in their relationship with food, talk to friends and family, like mealtime should be something special. And one of the studies out of the UK showed that I think most families have spent meal times together, it's like 18 minutes or something like that. Where in the Mediterranean where they've got much healthier relationships with food, you know, their meal times go for two hours or so. So it's about thinking of how we can really maximize our, you know, eating occasions with friends and family and, and you know, in turn that really does support healthy digestion and happy gut microbes.

I love that. That is such, that is such an incredible list. Okay, so the first one is eat more plants, but it doesn't have to be exclusively plants. The second one is focus on the diversity. The, the, the diversity. And you suggested fruit and veg, nuts and seeds, whole grains, beans and legumes, herbs and spices. Did I leave anything out? Nope.

The super sex.

Yeah, that's the Super 6. Now the third one was go for go for whole foods and not refined, the processed foods. The fourth was. Tell me the fourth again.

It was all about inclusion, not exclusion.

Inclusion, not, not exclusion.

And the final point was pause, taste and enjoy.

Right. Mind how you eat. Love that. I love that. So I'm curious in a couple of things. The first question is what are your views on intermittent fasting or on fasting mimicking diets?

Yeah, look, I think this whole world of, you know, fasting very much is personalized. What I would say is that most of the studies which have shown increase in longevity on, on following fasting has come from animal studies. So I do caution people taking this as gospel because what we see is that, that the vast majority of animal studies actually don't translate to human studies because we're in a whole different beast as well as our gut microbiome is also very different. So that's the first piece of advice. I would say that, yeah, actually fasting going through different, you know, there's obviously different types of fasting, you've got the 2 and 5, you've got the time restricted, eating, all of those sorts of things. You know, they do work for some of my clients more around weight management and that's reducing your eating window. Obviously you got less opportunity to have a lot of these more ultra processed snacks. So if you're not eating past, you know, 6pm you're not necessarily going to have the opportunity to go and have some ultra processed chips and burgers that you might later on. So that really is one of the key mechanisms for, you know, where I certainly see the success. I would say in terms of the data, we know that having at least a 12 hour fast overnight is important for our gut microbiome to kind of regenerate the intestinal lining. Where we see that people, you know, if they wake up in the middle of night and have snacks, they don't necessarily have enough time for your gut lining to share. Because actually I got lining sheds every five to 10 days and the cells regenerate. So that allows that sort of process to happen. So at least 12 hours. But actually any more than that outside, you know, of kind of the calorie restriction doesn't necessarily have any additional benefit according to the latest research. And then the other thing I'd like to highlight about people who kind of go on these longer fastings that I certainly see is that they don't necessarily get enough of their dietary fiber so they got microbiome becomes a little bit hangry. And some of the early stage studies, disclosure, this was in animals, actually showed that when their microbiome was hangry, it started to eat away at the mucus lining of the gut and therefore make them more likely to have leaky gut.

And you're saying fasting, mimicking diets or fasting can cause this.

So in animal studies it looks like it can in extended periods where you're not getting enough dietary fiber in. So one of the key things, if you are going on these sorts of diets where there's restricted eating periods, you still need to make sure you're getting your at least 30 grams of fiber in a day, if not, not more. I mean, I see a lot of the, the robust microbiome diets actually provide our body with at least 50 grams of fiber a day. In the US you guys are getting what, less than 20 if not less than 15 grams on the average. So there's a whole lot of work we need to do in terms of and feeding the gut microbiome. So I see just being cautious of fasting.

So I'm doing an experiment right now. I'm on day three. I'm on day three of the Prolon Pro Lon. It's one of the most common fasting mimicking diets. And yes, even on Prolon, they give you a lot of fiber to take. You're taking about 600 calories a day. But I'm on day three and it's, it's, it's. I'm getting a little bit sleepy, honestly. But typically on day four and day five, that's when your energy stops shooting up. So I can't wait to wait to wake up tomorrow.

Yeah, I mean, it'll be. I'd love to hear your experience.

It's. It's surprisingly much, much, much easier than it sounds. And for those of you who are on our chat who want to know about this, I'm pasting a link. You can check it out. It kind of tells you what happens when you go on a fasting mimicking diet. But I'm doing it because I live in Europe. I live in Estonia, where everything is organic. Like anything grown in Estonia is organic. The, the food, the air, the water here is all so clean. And I went to the US for five weeks and I put on an a kilogram in five weeks, even though I was trying to eat healthy. I'm not an avid, I don't drink much or anything of that sort. But American food is just so horrendously toxic for the gut. And so I'm going on this to simply clean my system from the American diet.

I mean, that's probably needed whenever I've gone to the U.S. yeah, you come back and just don't feel great internally.

So, so, so explain to me what is going on there. Why is it that those of us who live in cleaner countries like Europe, right, when we go to America, like, the food makes us go sick. What's going on there?

Yeah, look, I mean, we know that food is incredibly powerful to how we feel, and a lot of that comes down to the gut microbiome. And interestingly, like I mentioned, our team at King's are doing a lot of food additive research. And what we found is a lot of food additives that have started to be banned in European countries actually still allowed to be used in the US So this is just one hypothesis coming through where actually maybe some of the food additives may be having a negative impact. And then if you look, I guess, at the nutrition profile of a lot of the convenience foods, even if you are trying to avoid Them, some of them are hard, like the bread, much sweeter.

Right.

You know, the breakfast cereals, you know, even the healthy ones have got extra sugar than they do in the uk. And there's been a number of studies kind of showing that similar with salt and, and those sorts of things. So yeah, it's the, the nutrition supply is certainly something to be reviewed in greater detail.

Yeah, America has really horrendously bad anti consumer regulation regarding food. So here's a really cool thing that I want you guys to check out. There's an Instagram account called Food Babe. I'm just pulling it up to make sure that it's correct. And the food babe, Vana Hari, and what she does is she exposes how food companies manipulate you. And she just did a post called this makes My blood Boil. And you'll see it on Vanahari Instagram, the Food Babe. And she's basically comparing the nutritional value of American food and the similar product in Europe. Right. Like American peanut butter and then European peanut butter, same brand. But what you find is that the European one is actually healthier than the American one. The American one is filled with chemicals. There was also a video on YouTube I recently saw which revealed that American bread is not technically considered bread in Europe. What Americans think they are eating as bread is not bread. It is a bunch of chemicals that has been mashed together and it is illegal to call it bread in Europe. It's fascinating how, how awfully bad the American diet is.

And for people who are freaking out about that, what you can do is, you know, make your own. Essentially try where you can, you know, go those whole foods and make your own burgers from scratch. I know it's tricky because we're all really time poor, but. Yeah, no, it is something that I think the US Needs to review.

So, so, so advice for Americans because most of our audience is Americans. Where, where should they shop? What should they be paying attention to?

Yeah, look, I mean, I, I'm from Australia. You may have picked up my Australian accent. I grew up on a farm, so it's very fortunate from that perspective to be able to grow a lot of our fresh fruit and veg and produce. So what I would recommend is going to wherever you can get the whole fresh food from. Things like, you know, whole foods. I know it can be quite expensive.

Yeah.

But I'm sure that there's kind of alternatives as well as local markets, local food markets. Find out wherever you can, you know, see people growing their own.

Right.

Veg and try, you know, get A syndicate together. And someone might be growing the peppers, someone might be growing, you know, the cucumber, someone doing the apples and seeing if you can switch if you've got that as an opportunity. But yeah, fresh is going to win out.

So if you shop at Whole foods, it's about 20 to 25% pricier than a regular grocery store. And I know that can seem painful, especially in today's economy, but high inflation. But here's what you got to remember. Regular grocery stores in America and the companies that supply them are constantly in battle with each other to lower and lower and lower prices. And how they lower prices is by substituting with cheaper, unhealthy ingredients, but also putting in ingredients that actually make you want to eat more. And so when you want to eat more, they make more money. And so even though you may be paying 20 to 25% more for organic real foods at Whole Foods, what's likely going to happen is your overall grocery bill may not be as high because those foods actually fill you. They fill you with nutrition, they fill you with nourishment. They aren't engineered to make you continuously eat and eat and eat and eat and eat. I'm sure you guys have heard the story of the American muffin. In the 1980s, the American muffin was about this size, right? It's about, you know, it's, it's something you could easily just completely wrap in the palm of your hand. Today, the muffin is four times that size. And food and the sizing is continuously going up because these stores, while these companies make more money, the more they get you to eat. And so I would say Even though it's 20% more expensive, it is so important for your health for you to get healthy food. And your actual grocery bills might actually be lower because you end up eating less. You're eating more, you're eating more of the good stuff up, but eating less overall.

Yeah, look, absolutely. I mean, there's been research out there looking at food added in particular sweeteners, for example, you know, they're in a lot of the products that you know are found on a day to day basis. In fact, in the US at the uk, it's really hard to get a cordial without these sweeteners in it like sucralose and aspartame, because the government's put this mandate on trying to reduce down high sugar foods. So what companies have just done is taken out all of the sugar and added in all these sweeteners. But actually some of the research coming out from really high impact journals have actually shown the sweeteners are also impacting our blood sugar response, even though they're not meant to, because mechanistically they're not glucose, they shouldn't have that effect. And then some other studies are showing that if we have sweeteners one day, the next day we actually have greater cravings for sweeter food and end up eating more calories. So, yeah, we need to be certainly careful. I think about a lot of these, these kind of tricks that the food companies are, are playing. But then also I think there are products out there which are pretending to be healthy. So there are a lot of refined sweeteners that sound healthy, like agave and coconut nectar and all of those sorts of things. It's still a refined sugar. So what I recommend where you can is to sweeten your foods using whole fruits. Because what happens, things like dates and bananas, yes, they do contain some sugar. But what they've done is if you, it's packaged in with the fiber network and the fiber network actually slows down that, that digestion of that glucose so you don't get these really sharp spikes. And I mean, you know, the same principle goes with oats, breakfast oats. What some of my colleagues at King's have shown is that the jumboats, the big oats, have a much lower impact on your blood sugars compared to those refined porridge oats. So these sorts of things again, comes back to that principle that I mentioned, the third principle of going for whole, not refined. You know, if it takes, you know, the oats take like three minutes to cook. Probably not a good idea. They've been kind of ultra processed. Go those jumbo ones and cook them for 10 minutes.

Right. I love, I love that advice. Okay, now, second thing I want to ask you is this. Well, it's actually probably the fifth or sixth thing I've asked you. But what do we need to understand about the gut microbiome if we want to lose weight? You know, if we have stubborn belly fat or weigh weight on our extra weight around our thighs or our hips that men and women want to typically shed, Is there anything that you can advise us to do that can make a difference?

Yeah, look, the gut metabolism connection is huge. I've got a whole section in the book on it. And I certainly see that people who, people who calorie fixate, go on these weight watchers or go on these restrictive diets where their goal is always weight loss. Even like the keto diet, for example. Yes, you may lose weight in the short term. But actually what we know these diets are, diets is reduced down the diversity of your gut microbiome. They actually damage your microbiome. We think that potentially why these diets, after about six to 12 months, you actually end up not just regaining the weight you've lost, but actually gain extra because you've damaged the microbiome. So the microbiome is really important in producing these chemicals that help regulate our appetite, so leptin and ghrelin as well as helping the glucose release in our body. So things like our blood sugar regulation, all those things, sorts of things. So what I would recommend and I see the most success with is again moving away from this, you know, calorie fixation and going for these, these low calorie bars and, or these keto bars and actually trying to just go whole and fresh where you can. So getting in those super six, that diversity, getting in your 30 different types of plants across the week. Guys, I know it sounds, you know, different, so you're not fixating on portions and counting your portions, but this really does lead, lead to long term weight maintenance, weight maintenance and even weight loss, if that's your goal. Because the gut microbiome needs to be fed those Super 6 which contain the fiber. They produce these things called short chain fatty acids which regulate your appetite, regulate your sugar and your fat storage throughout the body. So keeping your microbiome happy with plenty of the fiber as well as those other phytochemicals which come from the Super 6 is really the key for, you know, reaching your happy weight.

That's, that's awesome. Thank you for that advice. Now the, the next thing I want to ask you is, is what are your, and I'm glad, I'm really glad you said what you said about diets. But now I want to ask you this. What are your thoughts of customized supplements like Biome, companies like Biome that customize supplements to your unique gut microbiome?

Yeah, look, this is a bit of a passion point of mine because I really, really hate it when companies, you know, try publish research ahead of when the research is really, you know, I guess being proven or validated. So we need to keep in mind that the gut microbiome is this very, very impressive network and there's about 40% of our gut microbiome in terms of the microorganisms, which we actually don't know the name of. We don't know what they do. There is so much still we haven't tapped into, let alone, like I mentioned, the Virome, the viral component. So the virus component or the microbiome, the fungal component. We don't understand quite yet how they interact with our gut bacteria. And similarly identical bacteria can act very different and two people's different in two people's guts.

Guts.

So just by knowing what bacteria you've got doesn't give us enough information. And then similarly very different bacteria can actually do a lot of the same mechanisms under certain scenarios. So these, these tests, the commercial world where they have said, yes, send us a fecal sample, we'll analyze it and tell you what supplements you need. Sadly, the science isn't there. I mean, in our team at King's we are doing some personalized nutrition microbiome work. Work. But what we've discovered is actually it's not necessarily the bacteria that seems to be the most predictive of response to different diets. It seems to be the metabolites they produce. So these volatile organic compounds. And I can send a link to the, the published paper if anyone's interested in that. And it seems to be these as being much better predictors because again, it's not just who's living in our gut, the bacteria, but actually the functionality. What are these guys doing that's depicting how we're going to respond to a different diet or what nutrients we need or what bacteria we're missing. So I say save your money for now, guys. Spend it on quality, you know, super six plants. And maybe in five to 10 years we'll know more about those other elements of the microbiome. We'll have discovered all of the bacterial components living within us and we'll understand about that network of how they're working together.

Awesome. Thank you so much, Megan. So I want to give you guys a couple of of websites where you can go to learn more about Megan Rossi. So firstly, her Instagram is the Gut Health Doctor. The Gut Health Doctor. And it's the same for her Facebook, her Twitter is the Gut Health Doc and her website is the Gut health gut health doctor.com. and the new book that's coming out is called how to eat more Plants. Transform Your health with 30 plant based foods per week. And why it's easier than you think. So don't freak out, freak out about it. This is going to be a lot easier than you think. And you do not have to become a vegetarian or vegan. And so Megan, final question is this. What are your thoughts on veganism and being vegetarian?

Look, I completely understand why someone would want to go, you know, 100% plant based, ie, become a vegan for animal cruelty, religious and environmental reasons. But actually outside of that, in terms of human health, there is no additional health benefit. In fact, there are some risks attached to going vegan because we know that things like long chain omega 3s which are most prominent in that oily fish is absolutely crucial for not only our mental health but our gut microbiome. And actually you can't, you can get some omega 3s from plant based foods, but they're shorter chain and they don't function the same way. So yes, you can get some from cheer and tofu, but what we're finding is it doesn't have that same effect. So I do recommend that if you are vegan or vegetarian, you don't eat oily fish, that you should be taking something like an algae oil supplement because algae oil, though it's a plant, is a exception to that where it's got the longer chain Omega 3s in it. And then similar we see with fermented dairy, so things like kefir and good quality fermented cheese, actually they've been linked with lower risk of heart disease as well as better weight management and, and even gut health in, in some extent with things like Parmesan cheese. So we are, you know, being completely unbiased. The research out there is suggesting that for human health, going vegan is not necessarily the right thing to do, but you can still be really healthy and go vegan. You just need to probably take a few supplements.

Got it. I love that. Thanks. Thanks for that response. Now let's look at a couple of questions which are coming in from the audience. So the first one is, what do you recommend for people who might have Candida?

Yeah, I mean, candida overgrowth is a really interesting one. There seems to be a lot of myths online that I would get people to check on because a lot of these, these Candida overgrowths have come from microbiome tanks. And actually interesting, we see that we've all got some Candida in our gut. And researchers have compared the amount of candida in people's guts to a lot of the symptoms. And what they've shown is that even some people with really high levels of Candida, you know, aren't having any bloating, aren't having any issues with brain fog or weight management. And people with very little candida in their diet are having all these symptoms. So I would check how you know that you've got Candida overgrowth growth. That would probably be my biggest take home. And what it probably is more likely if you're having these functional symptoms. So if you're having things like altered bowel habits, you're having things like tummy cramps or bloating, it's more likely you've got what we call a functional gut disorder. And there's a number of different types. Obviously irritable bowel syndrome is one of them. We also have things like functional bloating, functional constipation, and that's what my first book, Love youe Gut, is more about, helping people get on top of them. Hmm.

Now, what about what are your takes on prebiotics and probiotics?

Yeah. So prebiotics, Probiotics. One letter difference. A lot of people get them confused, understandably. So. Prebiotics is like the fertilizer for the good bacteria. And if you're getting your super six, your 30 different plants a week, you're going to get enough prebiotics. I very rarely prescribe someone take a prebiotic supplement. And because there's so many different types of prebiotics, it's best to get them probably from your whole food foods. In terms of probiotics, this is a really interesting space. So they're the live microorganisms. And one minute you'll hear the media saying they're a waste of your money, the next minute they'll say they're brilliant, we should all be on one. But, you know, the truth is kind of in between and that the whole understanding of programs is kind of confused in that we need to start treating them kind of like medication if we want their therapeutic benefit. So you wouldn't go and take hypertension, high blood pressure medication if you had diabetes, because they're kind of different things. The same things goes with, with probiotics. There's thousands of different strains and each different bacteria actually is for a different condition, does different things. We need to move to this space of more of probate prescriptions. And again, you can find out the seven areas of probate prescriptions which my team at Kings have come up with.

So. So what you're saying is that just get. Getting over the counter probiotics is not necessarily helpful.

It's not helpful at all. Or even paying these really expensive ones. In fact, one of the studies showed that if we took just any sort of probiotic shortly after an antibiotic period, it took those people longer for they got to recover if they took a probiotic because it's kind of changing.

So that, that's, that's important stuff. So the second important question over here is how do we heal our gut? The gut after taking antibiotics? And I always thought that probiotics was the answer. And you're saying no.

No, the answer is if you are prescribed antibiotics and you have to take them, you should take a specific probiotic throughout the duration of your antibiotic period and for a week after. You should not take a probiotic just after your antibiotics.

So you take. You take a probiotic as you're taking the antibiotics.

Yeah, and it's not just any probiotic. It's one called Sarcomatic narses boladi or Lactobacillus ramonis GG. And you'll take either at 5 billion units throughout your antibiotic period and for a week after. So could you.

Could you. Could you say that again? That is such valuable information. We need to type it out.

Yeah.

How do I spell that?

Yeah, so it's Saccharomaxis Bellotti.

You gotta spell that.

How about I just send it to you at the end? Saccharomaxi Pilates.

No, no, because people. People really want to know this. And they listen. Listen to this in a podcast in their car. Just try spelling it out.

Is that okay? God, yeah.

Did I just make you feel like you're on a spelling bee?

I was just like, oh, God, how do I spell suck myself? I don't even know.

I wish they could just give nice names to this thing, like Candida.

I mean, this is why it makes it quite different. Difficult.

I see it. We found.

Yeah.

S A C, C H A R O M Y C E S B O U L A R D I, I sacrament body. So this is the. Got it. So you said take saccharomyces or.

So that's one option. Or lactobacillus raminous GG. Just say LGG for that one.

Okay. LGG. Okay. L. LGG. Okay.

So you take either or 5 billion units.

Got it. Okay. This is super useful.

Yeah. So that's what. That's what these probate prescriptions that I mentioned in the first book are there a review of all of the science out there, and we've uncovered the seven areas where there's good scientific evidence to take a specific probiotic. And we talk to you about, obviously, the names, the dose you need to take it at, the duration you need to take it at, and how to take it in the fastest state or with food. Now, I know a lot of people thinking like, God, that sounds so complex. But, guys, if we want the benefit of probiotics, the therapeutic benefit probiotics, we need to Treat them that way, there's no point just taking any. You're wasting your money and actually could be having a negative impact on your gut. On your gut.

Got it. So, so don't worry. So prebiotics, you don't have to worry about them if you're, if you're doing the, the six categories of plant based foods that you spoke about. And then do not bother with probiotics, there's no scientific evidence for them. But if you are on antibiotics, do take Saccharomyces bouladi or lgg and you type in lgg, you'll find it. It's called Lactobacillus rhamnosis. Take that with your antibiotics, not after your antibiotics.

Yeah, and like I said, there's seven or there's six other occasions where there's good scientific evidence to take a probiotic. So irritable bowel syndrome is another one, constipation is another one, ulcerative colitis is another one. Etc and you can find more about that and in the first book. But outside of those areas, like I said, there's not enough clinical evidence to say it's worthwhile. We don't have the right combinations of bacteria to show health benefits yet. I think in the future we'll have more areas like psychobiotics, specific bacteria for mental health. That's a really interesting space, but we don't yet have enough evidence for one specific kind of type of strain that has that benefit yet.

Awesome. That, that's fantastic, Megan. So Megan, the final question is this, Is there a gut autism link?

There is a link. In terms of what the direction of that link is. We're not quite sure. We know that people with autism seem to have lower diversity of gut microbes and have a different kind of range, but we don't know if it's a chicken, the egg. Is it because people with autism seem to have a more refined eating pattern and they're more fixated on certain foods, or actually is it that there is a microbiome root to it, a cause to it, so the microbiome has been disturbed for whatever reason, particularly maybe through pregnancy, and that has then predisposed someone to autism? We don't quite know that yet and more research needs to be done. But certainly, you know, if we can help kids, you know, with autism get their Super 6, I know they're really, you know, they struggle with getting in diversity because they can be quite fixated on food. But if you can, you know, see a specialist dietitian who can help, you know, broaden the diet up. It really has, has had some pretty profound benefits in clinical practice that I've seen.

What about. I've also read about links between root canals and the gut. Is that a real thing?

Yeah, absolutely. So we've got our gut microbiome. So the most actually lives in the lower 1.5 meters of our intestine. We have an oral microbiome which also is really, really important for determining who gets into our body and can be, you know, it's obviously cause of things like, you know, dental caries and, and even those sorts of things that can be linked with heart disease as well because they get in the infection via the mouth. So our oral microbiome is also incredibly important. And yeah, more research is, is underway on that in terms of.

In looking at the root because I, because I recently heard a talk where the, the doctor who is, I think he was called a biological dentist, he mentioned that if you have a root canal, it's basically a diseased organ. Your tooth is dead. It's basically a deceased organ in your mouth and that's going to become like a cave for bacteria which will ultimately link to your gut and can cause severe chronic illness.

Yeah.

Is this something you, you, you believe in?

I mean, it's not necessarily just about belief. It's about what the science is currently saying about this area. And I think perhaps that view is a little bit too strong. We know that if you do have, have a root canal that hasn't been treated and therefore has infection around it and therefore some, you know, overzealous sort of bacteria to it, then that can get into our blood system and cause chronic inflammation. But I wouldn't want people to freak out if they do have a root where there is no infection about it.

So only if there's an infection.

Exactly.

That's fantastic. Yeah.

People who have more likely to get gingeritis and things like that, gum bleeding, a high risk of having heart disease via that link. So oral microbiome is really important to look after, as is our skin microbiome. I mean, we could chat for ages. We've got billions.

Yeah, exactly.

On our skin.

So. So, Megan, thank you so much for joining us in the mindvalley podcast. This is the end of our interview. This is so insightful. The audience and the comments are going wild. And you can find out about Megan by going to her website, which is the gut healthdoctor.com or following her on Instagram. Again, the gut health doctor. And you can also get her book, how to Eat More Plants on Amazon Megan, thank you so much.

It's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks to everyone for listening in.

Take care, guys. We'll see you in the next episode of the mindvalley Podcast.