169 Jeff Sanders: The Free-Time Formula

In order to be more productive, I have to be healthier first. Because I know that on the days that I bring my best self to my work, in other words, I have slept well, I've had good food, I've worked out, I feel my best well, that's when I get the most amount of work done. That's when that day is the most productive it could be. And so to make sure that I have those days over and over again, I want to be as healthy as possible. And so in kind of like a self centered kind of perspective that I want to be productive. I, I know that in order to achieve that, I have to take care of myself. And sometimes that works really well, sometimes I make dumb mistakes. But ultimately, like, that's the lens that I'm viewing, that's my philosophy here, is I want to make sure that I am eating well, I'm sleeping well, I'm working out every single week. And I'm doing a good job with that because I see how that plays out in my energy, my enthusiasm, my productivity, my results. They're all better when I'm healthier.

That was Jeff Sanders, and this is episode 169 of Wellness Force Radio. What's up, my friend? It's your host, Jeff. And welcome back to another episode for your weekly access to global experts in all things wellness as we discover the physical and emotional intelligence we need to live life well. In this podcast, I'm talking with our first Three Peat guest, bestselling author, podcast host and productivity specialist, Mr. Jeff Sanders. We're bringing him back on the show after quite a scare in 2017 where Jeff ended up in the emergency room, which gave him a moment of pause, which we all can relate to. That space between thinking and doing where there's nothing but you and your breath. You're gonna learn on this show today about how to create a free time formula that works for your individual life. How to identify whether or not something is actually helping you to be productive or it's just a distraction placed there by your subconscious mind to appear busy but not really getting anything done at all. One of the things I love most about Jeff, I've gotten to know him over the past three years, since I started the podcast journey in 2015, is Jeff's emotional intelligence, his willingness to go there. You guys know what I mean, right? Sometimes people can be experts in the field of health, wellness, fitness, personal development. Yet when it comes to being vulnerable and sharing their deepest story, they sometimes fall short. Well, that is not the case with this powerful conversation. With Jeff, where he reminds us how important it is to take the inventory of what's most meaningful in our lives, including ownership of how we can create what he calls the free time formula to support our best wellness. And when it comes to our best life, a life of true wellness, we all know that it starts with our breath. So this is your breath break. Take a deep breath. Feel it in your stomach, not from your chest. Drop down to your stomach, feel it full of air and hold it. When you let it go, feel how great it feels to feel that air come out of your mouth. Your nervous system shifts. It's that deep breath that you most deserve in your full and fast paced day. And a big part of how I've been getting through my full days with more energy and focus is through our show sponsor, our friends Organifi, creators of Organifi Green juice. That has been a total game changer for me. About six months ago when I joined dramatically change my daily routine. You know, around 3pm I would get this crash where I'd have like a call coming up and I'd wanna get a coffee and it would seem appealing. But then I started to use this green juice and it's not actually juice, it's powder which makes it so much more affordable and easy to take in. This made all the difference. Not a day goes by where I'm missing my green juice now and neither will you. Just hop over to Organifyshop.com, enter code Wellnessforce to save 20% off your entire order for the green juice and everything else on the website. I'm loving how I'm feel from the green juice and also the red with the extra nitric oxide for cellular health and athletic performance. If you're in a space where your day requires more energy, get yourself over to organifyshop.com enter code wellnessforce to save money with 20% off and more energy for your day. And every day I feel like it's a war. It's actually one of my favorite quotes from Jack Lane. When we look at all the things that try to distract us. He said every morning when you wake up, life is a battlefield. You either win the day or the day beats you. And I feel like this is the underbelly of what Jeff and I are talking about today on the podcast where he shares the power of taking breaks and sabbaticals, how to slay the distraction dragons in your life, the things that pull you away from what you really want, how ambition can actually backfire and how to set up Healthy boundaries around this. And also Jeff's new book, the Free Time. The story behind its creation and the power I know it can fuel your life with. Because that's why we're here, isn't it? We want to live life well. We're in the discovering of greater physical and emotional intelligence. And it's not supposed to be some kind of structured, stressful thing. Every single day in this life, we get to understand our personal free time formula. And as Jeff says, if I'm automatically defining my life as busy, then what does that say about my life? Am I living the life I want to live, or am I just filling my time with busy activities that ultimately makes me feel overwhelmed and stressed out? The process to better productivity starts by acknowledging where you're wasting time the most and then figuring out where to go from there. Now let's drop in with Jeff Sanders. Jeff Sanders, the Three Pete. Welcome back to Wellness Force Radio. Thanks so much for coming on.

Well, thank you, Josh. It's glad to be here today.

You know, the last time we talked, episode 115, and when this comes out, this is actually going to be episode 169. So from 115 to 169, there's been so much going on. Jeff, you're coming out with the free time formula in just a couple weeks.

Weeks.

Finding happiness, focus, and productivity, no matter how busy you are. Man, what is this book all about? Like, why are you so stoked on this book? February 28th, it's launching. Did this come through you? Was this a download from higher intelligence?

Maybe. I think that this book kind of fell into my lap, in a sense, because I didn't plan on writing it. I didn't have this. This idea was not in my head a year ago, but it all kind of fell into place because a publisher reached out to me and wanted to do a book with me about productivity and time management. And at first, the pitch was really generic. It was like, just write a book about productivity. Like, well, that's not gonna work. Well, let's. Let's narrow this down a little bit. So we went for like, six weeks back and forth trying to figure out a topic. And then I happened to have this big fiasco that I discuss in the book. We can discuss today as well, where I ended up in the er and that kind of sparked the idea for the book. And everything just fell into place from there. And so that's kind of where the book unfolded.

Oh, man, we're definitely gonna talk about that because so many people listening. I know have had those pivotal thresholds, right? Those moments where they're just like, everything changes thing that happened either to them or for them. But I'm thinking about our last show, Jeff, the power of saying no, which I thought was a beautiful way to really enforce these healthy boundaries. Since we did our episode, you know, we talked about liberation and owning our day. And today we're gonna talk more about wellness and really this free time. I think right now, Jeff, even when we look at a year ago when we interviewed, the demands, the calendars. Like everyone I know, Jeff is more full and busy than ever. How do people kind of take a breath and begin this process of even the inv, Let alone the planning? I know we'll talk about the planning, but how do they just identify if something's not working as far as productivity and the way that their life looks from a day to day basis?

Well, I think it really begins with self awareness. I think most of us, when we think about our lives, tend to think that we have a lot going on. And I said that because I was at a party over the holidays and talking to a guy that I hadn't seen in a while. And I asked him, like, hey, how are things going? How's your life? What's going on? And his response immediately was, oh, I'm really busy. Things are going fine. And it kind of hit me in that moment that I hear that all the time that I'm busy. Like, that's the response. It's not like I'm doing great or life is fun. The response is I'm busy. And that to me, just speaks to what this book is all about. Where the idea behind figuring out what to do with your calendar starts, is that this realization and this awareness of if you are this like me and other people as well, if you identify as I'm a busy person, that's kind of who I am and what I do. I think that's a problem. I think that's where we, if we define our lives as busy. That doesn't speak to a life that's great or a life that's being productive or fulfilling. It just means you have too much going on. Like that generally is what that means. And so in my kind of perspective on this, I'm looking at my own calendar, my own life, and thinking, well, if that's my default response, if I'm just saying I'm busy all the time, what does that say about my life? Am I living the life I want to live or am I just filling my time with busy Activity that ultimately just makes me feel overwhelmed and stressed out. The process begins by acknowledging that, acknowledging you are there now, and then figuring out, okay, now what am I gonna do because of that?

I'm smiling over here because I just had a conversation last night. I was running the stairs with a friend, and he was like, I always have to work on Sundays, and it's so triggering me. I'm just so busy all the time. And I looked at him, I'm like, you know, you can choose not to work on a Sunday, right? Like, you can actually just set up this framework. I'd love to dive into this, too, with you. When was researching the show, I came across Parkinson's Law. Now, Parkinson's Law is an adage that work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion. In other words, if you tell yourself, I will work 50 hours this week, I will not work one hour more. Have you instilled any research on Parkinson's Law in the book? Or have you heard of Parkinson's Law? Does this apply to what you dive into on the show?

Oh, there's no doubt that that law applies to, I mean, just time management in general. But I think that specifically in terms of, you know, wanting to achieve more free time, I think it's kind of the perfect way to think about this, because if you said to yourself, I'm going to work 50 hours this week, you're going to fill that time whether you have 50 hours of actual work to get done or not. And then if you have a set boundary that you finish those 50 hours, well, then after that, you have your quote, unquote free time to do whatever you want. But if you were to change that 50 to a 40, you'd probably get the same amount of work done in 40 hours and then have 10 more hours of free time. And so I feel like that's kind of where this. This process can begin as a mentality to think of, you know, I have X number of hours in the week, but I'm not trying to fill the time. I'm trying to accomplish the things I've set to accomplish as efficiently as I can. And then if I get those things done faster, well, then I have additional time to do more of the value activities I want to do. But I'm not just going to take an activity and stretch it to last longer arbitrarily. A lot of us do that, though, because we have a 9 to 5 job and we're told to work 40 or 50 hours a week, and so we just tend to fill the time. But it's not logical. It's not actually based on, you know, how long a task takes to get completed. It's just based upon, you know, I need to be somewhere for X number of hours per week. So I feel like if you shift the mentality around, you know, how do I get this stuff done in the most efficient manner and cut the things that don't matter at all, you can free up so much more time that's then so much more valuable.

I mean, we cannot fit 15 pounds of potatoes in a five pound sack. Yet you talk about this. One of my favorite chapters. I actually got a copy of the proof and it's chapter 11, slaying the distracted Dragons. So I want to talk a little bit about this in just a few minutes, but one piece that I want to highlight for everyone listening here. When Jeff talked about awareness, if you identify yourself as a busy quote person, well, then that's going to be kind of like the subcutaneous, the subconscious role of who you are. It's going to be in there no matter what. Jeff, how big of a deal is belief? When we look at even approaching productivity and planning a life we love, belief is everything.

I think that's where a whole conversation really starts, is you have to believe in who you want to be. You have to believe in this future version of yourself. And that starts after you acknowledge that your current beliefs about yourself are dictating how you respond. In other words, if you currently believe I'm a busy person, you live that out and that becomes your reality. But if you change that belief system of, you know, I'm going to live a different kind of life, you then get that response instead. And so I think that if you really want to acknowledge the role that, you know, productivity has in your life or free time or success or fulfillment, like those things start with believing those things are possible and then you can actually get after those as opposed to just believing. You know, maybe I'm a victim to my circumstances or, you know, life is just beating me down. And yes, those things can be true, but if you walk around every day believing that's true, you just, you get more of that. And so I think a big part of the kind of the mindset shift that has to take place is really acknowledging where you are now, that awareness of what you're currently believing and seeing, and then making an intentional shift so you can get more of the things that matter more to you.

Yeah, but this internal narrative, this inventory, Jeff, it kind of flies in the face of the expected year over year model of growth, where in the capitalistic model, which it's great, but it's not perfect. The ambition is what drives a lot of sales and marketing and businesses to constantly, and I mean every single year to report to their shareholders a year over year growth. And I think this probably is the main cause of why people feel anxiety and stress. There's no surprise that people are working probably more hours now because we're connected through all of our devices and whatnot. How does ambition backfire? Like, what can we first recognize about our own ambition and setting up healthy boundaries about it?

Well, I mean, the best example of ambition backfiring was the story I alluded to earlier, which happened to me last year, where I was one of those guys, I was one of the ambitious types who had lots of goals. This is about a year ago now. I had set big goals for myself for the year. I was pursuing tons of them at the same time. Because I, you know, I'm a guy that likes to do a lot. I'm a type A guy, drink probably too much caffeine, you'll like to go get a lot of stuff done. For a long time I was getting great results. And that kind of, that desire to grow every year was being played out in my life. I was seeing growth every year. So why stop? Well, it became clear why I should stop very clearly last year when I had booked my schedule to the brim, right? All of my hours of the week were totally booked. And then of course, in that process, things showed up I didn't see coming. And some of them were challenging, some of them took a lot of time, some of them just added stress. And so my calendar that was already booked became impossible to pursue because I had no extra time, There was no margin, no free time. And so I began to get incredibly stressed out. And that's when this ER trip showed up. Because I ended up with a stress related condition that the ER doctor called an esophageal spasm. Which basically means I was eating some food and the food got lodged in my esophagus. So I wasn't choking, I could still breathe, but it felt like a heart attack. Like all the signs of a heart attack. Shortness of breath, nausea, dizziness, like I thought I was gonna die, like it was a legit freak out moment. And so, you know, got in the ambulance, went to the hospital, had the whole ER visit. And the doctor basically said, like, you are a healthy person, but you're killing yourself. Like you cannot continue this pace you cannot continue to push this hard because it's not going to work. Like, you're just going to. To be back in the hospital again if this continues. And so I had no choice but to completely shift gears and find a healthier balance where the things that mattered were still getting done, so still being ambitious. But there was an intentional margin and breaks built in so that I could still have that. You know, the margin, the free time, the relaxation that I needed to be rejuvenated, to come back with better ideas and more creativity and more energy and enthusiasm, which you can't get if you're burning the candle at both ends. And so there has to be a balance achieved if you want long term ambition, long term productivity. Like, it will not work forever if you just continue to push harder. And so there has to be an intentional shift in how you operate to make sure you actually are getting kind of both ends of the spectrum, that you are getting your work done. And there is a break built in, man.

Intentionality and awareness. So what was it like? I mean, you're. You're literally going through this thought process of, wow, am I going to die right now? Like, did you actually feel that? I mean, what, what happened there?

Oh, totally in the moment. I mean, it would last for probably 20 to 30 minutes. Somewhere in that timeframe where my chest was just compressing really hardcore, I could not get a breath in that was deep. And so I was feeling very lightheaded. Like, I just, I thought in that moment, like, I'm going to pass out. And then when I pass out, like, I'm just going to be dead. Like, it's. That's just happened here. And my wife was there with me and she was freaking out. And like, it was just a very scary moment because I had never experienced anything like that ever in my life. And I had no idea what was going to happen because of it, because I didn't know what the cause was. I had no idea what was going on. I just knew that everything was going wrong at the same time. And so luckily, like, the food digested fine. Everything cleared up. It was within 30 minutes. I was okay. But for a little while, it was very freaky because I just literally thought, like, this could be it. Like, I could die right now eating a salad, which is literally what I was eating at the time, which was just so stupid. But yet that was my moment right there.

Damn, Jeff. I'm just thinking about this body's intelligence. You know, our body has such innate, such ancient wisdom, and we always contrast this on the podcast, you know, this physical and emotional intelligence at that moment. What message was your body screaming to you, Jeff, that maybe you weren't listening to for the past six months before that moment?

Well, I think it's one that I hear in various ways that one was much louder than the other ones. Your body has ways of telling you it's time to slow down, whether that's you get injured at the gym, which happens to me frequently, or you get the flu, or you get some sort of, like, some awareness from your body that says, like, you know, how about today you take a break? How about today you take a nap or slow things down or take the day off from work. And generally that looks like an illness. And that's kind of how I felt. It was like, this is just like a smack in the face. That's super hardcore. But the message was clear that I had to stop, I had to slow down, I could not keep pushing. And it was just. There was no doubt that in that moment, I knew the rest of my life was going to be shaped differently because there was no way I wanted to have another occurrence like that. And sometimes it takes that big of a smack in the face to wake up and realize things have to change. And for me, like, that was my moment, man.

It takes me to a quote that I haven't mentioned on the podcast for a while, Jeff, but it's, we teach best what we most need to learn. It's by Richard Bach. And it just came to me right now when you were talking. I'm like, here's a guy who is so productive. This is. This is your second or third book?

It's my second published book. It's the third one I've written.

Not to mention having a podcast and being a coach and being a speaker and being a husband and, you know, taking care of a dog and everything else that you do. It's like you do so much and you're figuring it out along the way. I think you're in the top percentile of people in the world that really understand how to create productivity, how to create free time, but yet you're also still learning yourself, man. I mean, what keeps you curious about this process of learning productivity on the continuum?

Well, I think it's funny because, like, on the one hand, like, you're probably right that I'm probably more productive than the average person. At the same time, the way I view myself is, well, how much more could I get out of today? Like, how much more could I get done? I think that mentality of like, what else could be accomplished today that's not being accomplished? That mentality has led me to becoming more ambitious, more productive. And of course that's led to more success over the years. But then of course I saw the backfiring of that. But I feel like my, my mentality around is that I just, I want to squeeze every moment out of the day that I can. And I don't know where that came from. I don't know why I care so much about that. It's just one of those cases where like, there was a time in my life where I began to see that, like, the actions I take every day really do make a huge difference in the results that I'm seeing. And if I change my actions, I change my results. And so I was just looking for, you know, years ago, how do I make small changes to see bigger results. And that has just continued. And I'm just, I'm still fascinated by it because I'm still learning, I'm still making tons of mistakes. And so I think it's fascinating to see like in my own life where I'm not doing well and how I could improve that, which then of course I turn around and I teach to others. But it's fun to be able to kind of be my own guinea pig because I am very much like it's still in the learning phase. It will be for the rest of my entire life. And so it's, it's a really fun process. I like it.

And it's never going to go away, the learning process, because just when you think you have technology or your schedule mastered, the universe is like, hahaha, ah, watch this. And it's gonna throw something in your way. Right? So let's break this down then. What actually is free time? Do you feel like we push our free time to the side as an excuse where we're not worth the free time or why do we really have more free time than we actually think we do?

The way I see free time, like how I define it in the book, is that technically all of our time is free time. And I know it's kind of a weird way to view it, but I think that with that mindset in mind, that perspective, that all of our time is free time, what I'm really getting at is that we have the intentionality kind of built into our lives to say every single day is my day, I can do whatever I want. I could quit my job today. I could, I could move across the country today. I could change my whole life today if I wanted to. And with that mentality, I look at free time as a way of saying we have an opportunity to do more of the time we have, because we can choose at any moment what to do with our time. Now, we build in our own kind of constraints and we have our own boundaries set in. And a lot of them are healthy boundaries, like I should go to work on time and that sort of thing. But I think it's also really important to realize that you have the power to change whatever is happening at any moment. And that, to me, is what really speaks to the idea that we have more free time than we realize. Because a lot of our time is already being taken up. A lot of the free time we might have, let's say after work or on the weekends, we're already making choices with that time and we can make different choices. And that would technically give us more free time or more flexibility to choose something different. And that's really the point is that free time is an opportunity to make a different choice than you've made before. And so I'm looking at this through the lens of what's a better choice I could make, what's a better use of my time? How do I get more value out of the time that I have? And maybe that's, you know, laying on the couch watching Netflix, but I doubt it. Like, it's probably something else. It's probably a more valuable use of your time that gives you results that you're going to care so much more about down the road. And so that's the question you should be asking, is like, what's the better use of this time that I know I already have in my schedule?

Love this metaphor of lens, because our physical body, you know, how we show up physically, Jeff, it really is the lens that we see everything else in our life from an emotional intelligence perspective from. And I think about the way that you've had a fitness journey. We talked about this on the past shows, which we'll link in the show notes. But the role of how you show up healthy, vital and fit, you obviously have a very healthy mindset. So tell everyone, like, what has been your North Star when it comes to health and fitness, that really allows you to have a clean lens, Jeff, as you view productivity?

Well, the way that I view productivity is that in order to be more productive, I have to be healthier first. And so I have a very much a health first approach to the entire process because I know that on the days that I bring my best self to My work, in other words, I have slept well, I've had good food, I've worked out that I feel my best. Well, that's when I get the most amount of work done. That's when that day is the most productive it could be. And so to make sure that I have those days over and over again, I want to be as healthy as possible. And so in kind of like a self centered kind of perspective that I want to be productive. I know that in order to achieve that, I have to take care of myself. And sometimes that works really well. Sometimes I make dumb mistakes. But ultimately, like, that's the lens that I'm viewing. That's the. My philosophy here is I want to make sure that I am eating well, I'm sleeping well, I'm working out every single week. And I'm doing a good job with that because I see how that plays out in my energy, my enthusiasm, my productivity and my results. They're all better when I'm healthier. And so to me, like, there is no question that, yes, working out makes you feel better when you do it as well. That's a nice benefit too. But really from the idea that I want to get more done, if I'm horribly out of shape and super exhausted all the time, I'm never going to be the person I want to be. And so I have to be my best self. Health first. And then of course from there, that flows into getting more stuff done.

This is a huge take home. And I want to pause here just to reiterate. We already talked about awareness and getting rid of the subconscious belief that I am a, quote, busy person. That's a big one. But then also this, let this one hit as well, because if we're not showing up with the capacity for energy, we're not going to be able to disseminate our knowledge or get things done in any other way. So I almost feel like. Jeff, you and I have talked about decision fatigue before. It's. You don't make a decision to exercise. It's just something that you do.

Oh, totally. I think that, well, initially it's a choice, but over time, of course, if you have the habits built in, you can get to the point where it's just an automatic response. You know, you wake up and you work out.

Yeah.

And if that becomes your life, then there's no second guessing it. There's no questioning that you're not going to let you know the fatigue of the day set in and then decide not to do it. If it's part of your life. It's part of your life. And so if you want health to be a priority, well, then in many kind of direct ways, wake up and make it your first thing you do. And with that in mind, you're going to then set the foundation for being healthy for the rest of the entire day. And then, of course, that's just repeated day after day. And when that's in place, it's amazing just how automatic it is and how easy it is to then make that choice again and again, because you're not really making a choice anymore. It's just kind of built into your life.

So you're setting up this framework for productivity. One thing I want to mention here is that, you know, we have this plan, we have this template, Jeff, of how we think our day is going to go. And then the universe comes in, and it's almost like the eye of a storm, where it's quiet for a moment, and then all of a sudden, the kids come in, you're screaming, people cut you off, your dinner's late. I mean, slaying the distraction dragon. You talk about this in chapter 11, death by distraction. What exactly is a distraction dragon? And how do we slay this beast?

Well, it's more of a metaphor than anything, but really, I think distraction dragon, to me is just like. It's that onslaught of stuff. It's all those things that are distractions because it's just. It's everything. Actually, there's a quote in the book up from There. I'm gonna read real quick. I love it. It's the first part of that chapter from my wife, actually. She says I asked her, like, what do you think about? We think about. About distractions, like, what comes to your mind? And she said, my dog, my spouse, food projects, nature napping, anything online, exercise, stretch breaks, instant messaging, other people to do lists, on and on and on. She kept going, like, everything is a distraction. Every possible thing that we do or could be, you know, interact with is a distraction from the one thing we're trying to get done. And so I think from that perspective, if you know what your one thing is, you want to get done. And if you identify, like, in this moment, here's the next top priority. You can set boundaries in place to make sure that one thing does get done. Even right now, talking to you for this episode, this podcast interview, this is my number one thing. And I have removed other distractions. I've locked the door to my office. Like, I am here to do this interview. That kind of intentionality has to be built into every single major component of your day. Now, of course, things are going to pop up. You have to deal with those things as well. But it's recognizing the common distractions that are always there and being able to acknowledge that they're there and find a way to get around them. And if that's built into your day and you found ways to cut distractions, it's amazing to me, so amazing just how much more I get done, because there's only one thing to do. I do it well, I get it done faster, and I go on to the next thing. But that all starts with the boundaries being in place because you've acknowledged why that could not get done, and then you've found a way around that.

I love the quote from your wife, too, because people listening could add, like 20 more things there. These dragons that come in, these distraction dragons. And I think a way that I've personally done a good job, maybe even a great job of slaying these dragons, is I just literally set up frameworks in my inbox and I set up frameworks in my life where if it doesn't apply to either growing our Wellness Force community or helping deliver our message to more people, I just don't do it. Jeff, you talk about this in your work. How to filter incoming invitations, new ideas, projects, all these people that kind of want to nip at your time. Five minutes here, 15 minutes there. How have you done this, man? I'm curious. Could you share with us how you've done your filtering for invitations and new ideas and projects and all these things and really just stay true to your pole position?

Well, I think one of the ways I do that, that helps tremendously, is I have a vision board in my home office where I post kind of inspiring quotes. A few of those are actually in the book as well. But what I have on there, the intention, is to say, like, here's some inspiring quotes that remind me what my focus is, or here are my top goals for the quarter, for the month, for the week. Those are all posted in my office that I can see even right now, looking at them like, everything is posted. So I'm constantly reminded this is what matters right now. These are the few things I have said that need to get done. And one quote that I have is a question like, is it a 9 or a 10? No. Well, then walk away. And that's there to remind me, is this next thing that's popping up that important? Does it matter to me? Is it a 10 on my scale? If not Find something else that is a 10 and do that instead. I feel like that's the constant question I'm asking myself is, what's the next 10 on my list? What's the next big important thing? And most of the stuff that shows up, whether it's the emails that pop in, the text messages, the phone calls, most of those, the vast majority, can wait. And they almost all need to, because in order for you to do the one thing that matters most, everything else has to wait. And so it's deciding ahead of time what's going to get your attention and then when those other things will come into play. There's got to be time for emails, going to be time for phone calls, but generally speaking, that time is not during your prime working hours of the day. Like, that needs to be devoted to the thing that matters most. The kinds of questions I ask myself, like, is it a 9 or a 10? You know, is this my next most important objective? I almost always know the answer immediately, and I can then refocus to what matters most.

Yeah. And you know, what I really respect about you in the time I've gotten to know you over these past two, three years is like, you are very tactical, Jeff. You know how to take people from A to B in the most efficient and fast way. But what I like about you is you also explore the emotional side of this. For example, just because people know they should write down 10 things they're grateful for or meditate or, you know, go for a run or set up these filters, it doesn't always mean that knowing equals doing the emotional exploration between knowing and doing. What have you studied? Or who has been your kind of ethos or fuel to teach you about the emotional intelligence, Jeff, because you're very tactical, you're very intelligent at getting people from that A to B. But the emotional training, like, what have you done there? Who have you depended on to grow your emotional intelligence to know how to be aware in this process of moving forward?

It's my wife, actually. She's the one person that I kind of lean on every day for that because she's also a type a person. But what she's really good at, seeing past the kind of the left brain side of me. And she can really see into like, Jeff, like, you look stressed out, calm down. Or Jeff, like, what do you think about right now? Like, she can see it before anybody else can, before I see it. And I feel like it's. She works from home also. And so it's like throughout the day, like, we'll check in with each other, and a lot of times she'll look at me and be like, what's going on, Jeff? What are you doing right now? And it's very clear that, like, I need that check in from somebody who knows me well that can point out how to kind of refocus my energy. And sometimes it means I go for a walk, and sometimes it means I will stop and read a book or take a nap, like, whatever it means to kind of get back my. My healthy perspective on the work I'm doing. I feel like it's. It's good to have someone close to you, could be a coworker, could be a boss, could be anybody, but someone that knows you well enough to point out to you when you're off track, and they can see it before you do. I think it's really powerful.

I'm smiling here because I'm realizing this is why I'm in the process of seeking a committed relationship, because we learn so much about ourselves, Jeff, in a relationship. How big of a mirror is your wife to you?

I mean, she is a mirror to me. Like, she's everything. Like, that's. It's incredible how similar we are. But yet, then again, like, having someone there who's not you to point out things that you're doing that are silly or stupid or off task. It's really great to have that accountability built in, because without that, you'll just kind of continue on the path you're on unless somebody else helps you get off that dumb path. That's what I'm on frequently is just, like, I get too bullheaded. I'm almost, like, too focused on one thing. And it's really good to have a healthy perspective that says, like, hey, let's. Let's take a minute and pause because you're kind of getting too intense about this. And it's great to have that other person there for accountability.

Before I went on today with Jeff, I posted in our community at the WellnessForce group on Facebook, and Matt asked Jeff, how do I enroll and get my spouse on board with my new take on having a more productive life? I'm experiencing some pushback.

Yeah, that's part of it, unfortunately. I think one thing that has worked out well is that, generally speaking, my wife and I are on the same page, but not always. I think that one example of that is our diet. Like, we eat very different foods, and we've had to, over the years figure out ways to work together on that, to compromise. Like, I like this food. You like that food. How do we cook the same meals? Well, the same thing goes for. How do you want to operate in your day? Overall, I teach this a lot with my kind of 5am miracle content around the idea that, well, if I want to be out of bed at 5:00am and my spouse, you know, is in bed until 9, how does that work with our sleeping patterns being so off base? And it just starts with the conversation. It just starts with really acknowledging, like, here are the goals that I have. Here are the goals that you have. How do those things work together in the same space? How do we find a commonality that is going to be productive for the two of us? And it's going to require some compromise. There's going to be some things you're going to have to give up as part of that. But ultimately it's going to be a much healthier household, a much healthier relationship. If everyone's kind of like communicating consistently with, you know, here's what I need, here's what you need. Let's find a great solution for the both of us. And I think that ultimately that works out so much better. And you find such amazing solutions. And a lot of times you actually get all the things you wanted. And more like, it's not like you lose in a scenario. There's a lot of things to gain, but it has to begin with the conversation. You start with that and you continue it every single day. You keep talking about these things because they keep changing and you have to be able to analyze, you know, how is life today? What do you need today? How can I help you today? And that opens the door to be able to create that scenario that works best for everybody.

What's the food dichotomies like? Vegetarian versus Mediterranean. How does that go?

Well, I'm a vegan and my wife is not. She's mostly vegetarian at home. So we kind of have like a lot of times, like last night, it's a good example. We both had soup for dinner. Her soup had meat and mine did not. And so we have to kind of create different meals sometimes for the two of us. And generally it works out just fine. Like, we're both pretty good about the other person's dietary choices, but. But it is a constant conversation as well. That's one of those things we have to talk about frequently. But it has over the years, though, it's definitely worked out pretty well.

It seems like you're just a curious person in general. You're always curious about yourself and maybe even relationship with your wife. Just how do I make this the best? And as you said earlier, squeeze the juice out of every single moment. And what blocks us from squeezing juice is if we're subconsciously addicted to something. 90% of Americans have a number one addiction. You sent me this before we recorded today. I gotta know, Jeff, like, what's this addiction, man? Like, what is this 90% number one addiction of all Americans?

Caffeine. It's kind of the culprit of the productivity world because it's the one thing that people don't want to give up. It's one thing that I've had a real kind of back and forth battle with as well.

God, I love caffeine.

I did. Yeah, me too.

It's so good.

It was funny too, because I was having some dietary changes I was making and some digestive issues I was going through. So I was talking to a nutritionist and trying to figure out a better kind of pattern going forward. And one thing she recommended was, we'll take like 30 days and just like clean your palate and ditch everything that we know is not gonna be a great choice. So I ditched alcohol, I ditched caffeine, I ditched a lot of sweet foods. I ditched a lot of stuff. And what I noticed right away was not having alcohol didn't bother me at all. I didn't care. It didn't matter to me. But the second I got rid of caffeine, it was like a brick to the forehead. It was like, this is a life changing substance for me because I have relied on it so heavily. Like, I can give up foods left and right without thinking about it at all. But for some reason, caffeine is the thing that always stands out as I've got to have it today. And for most Americans, that is the case. Like that it's just a part of life that you're not questioning. It's not a question of do I have caffeine or not. Today we know the answer is yes.

It's more, how much? Yeah, right.

How much am I going to have? How much can't I have? And so I think that it's really important to acknowledge the role that it plays because in those 30 days that I had no caffeine, and yes, the first week or two, I was really tired, slept a lot more. But then what I realized was that I had got to a place where I had built up such a dependence on this substance that it was determining my energy levels, my moods, my productivity. It was affecting everything about my life. And so when I let go of it, I could see its impact and then be a lot more intentional about how much I have when I have it, if I even have it at all. And because of that, I am at such kind of healthier balance now with what I'm consuming and knowing how that affects my output. And I think for a long time, it just became a habit. It just kind of grew into my life as it's just part of who I am, but it doesn't have to be. And I think it's really important to take breaks from those things to acknowledge the role they have and how much they impact you so that you can be more intentional about how much you consume.

Yeah, and I feel the same way about nootropics. I'm sure you've experimented with nootropics in your work. So every three months, I take two weeks off of my qualia, which I love. But, you know, we can't do everything the same way forever. And I think that's what I'm feeling from you, Jeff. Like, look at how the productivity that you're driving with caffeine or with nootropics is actually atrophying. At some point, we reach kind of a line of diminishing returns. What would you say that is for most people when we look at caffeine or nootropics? What's the timeframe on that? Is it every three months or every six months?

I mean, I would say it's probably closer to every three months. It's gonna be a shorter term because I know that even my own life, I can feel very clearly how one caffeine dose today is gonna have an effect, and then tomorrow I might need one and a half, and then a week from now I need two to have the same sense of boost and, you know, effectiveness. And it's just very clear that over time, you just tend to have more to feel that same sense of being high, really. And so it's just. You're gonna need a break more often than not. And so at this point, I'm taking a break about every 60 days or so to go, at least a solid week off. But that. That, for me, is in my body, how I respond best. I think that for everyone else, it's gonna be a little bit different. You want to find out, like, how your body responds, but there needs to be an intentional break at some point to make sure that you are acknowledging as often as possible. Yes. Caffeine has kind of. I've built that tolerance up, and I need to kind of Bring it back down and get a little bit more centered in my life without it. So I can then kind of restart, if I do at all, on a healthier level.

So we've scratched the surface on your book. But speaking of taking breaks, one thing that I know you dive into a lot is the power of taking the pause. You call it sabbaticals. You know, when we look at planning or reflecting and focusing, we can do a lot of work. We can put the systems in place, we can drive the boat forward. But at some point, strategically placing in sabbaticals can be so effective for actually driving more productivity, which paradoxically, it seems like, wait, Jeff, if I'm taking a break, if I'm taking a sabbatical, doesn't that mean I'm not doing anything?

That's right. That's the point. I think it's one of the best things. I met a guy at a conference last year who has been doing a week long sabbatical every seventh week in his business for probably five years or so. And so he intentionally has. And then he has employees and they all do the exact same thing on a rotating schedule. And so every seventh week, you know, someone in his company is taking a break and having a full week off, including himself as the owner of the business. And so the intention behind that is to say we're gonna work in six week sprints and kind of get as much done as we possibly can in six weeks. Knowing that every seventh week is essentially a vacation, but really it's more of an intentional, you know, I'm not going to work for this week. And then when that week shows up, I can choose to be creative or take a nap or go on a trip or whatever it is I want to do. Knowing that at the end of that week, I will come back replenished and refreshed and ready to refocus for the next six weeks sprint. And I love that concept so much that I kind of built that into my own life. Now I'm doing the exact same thing in my business and I'm not very good at it yet. It takes some time to learn how to not work when you love what you do. Like, it's really hard, actually. And so you have to be very intentional about having those boundaries in place to make sure that you know what you're doing, can operate when you're not there, but also that you are aware that when I'm not working, here's what I can do with my life. Here is some time available and use it wisely so you do feel replenished. So when you get back into the office, you have those ideas, you have the creativity, you're ready to refocus. But if you don't take the break initially, if there is no sabbatical, that's when burnout shows up. That's when you get yourself way too worked up, because there's never an end in sight and there has to be a finish line somewhere.

There's gotta be some light at the end of the tunnel, man.

Yeah, exactly. You have to have something built in to say, this is gonna be over soon. Otherwise it just feels like infinite terror. And that's not gonna work long term.

So in the free time formula, is there some strategy or some checklists or some planning apparatus around how to stick in these sabbaticals? And also, if someone's struggling, Jeff, with putting those healthy boundaries in place, I think it's one thing, as we talked about earlier, to know, it's another to do have you kind of filtered in and baked in recipes for bulletproof and. And, you know, a really nice checklist for people to instill these healthy boundaries in the book.

Yeah. The book is filled with action steps and lots of different self evaluations and time audits and ways for you to figure out kind of what's going on in my life right now and how do I restructure my time to make sure that I'm gonna get the results I want, which obviously, at some point you have to decide, here's what it is I actually want, which I feel like with most people is the biggest struggle. It's easy to say, like, I'm stressed out today, we know that, but what do I gotta do about it? I think that's what the book really tackles head on, is like. Like, here's what you can actually try in a variety of different ways to restructure your time so that your calendar can resemble a life you actually want to live and one that will be sustainable long term. I feel like that's. That was my goal with the book, was to provide a real sense of clarity and action steps around what it looks like to make those steps to get that end result you want.

This is really interesting because I think of how productivity has played a role. When I first started the podcast, full transparency here, I was a wreck, Jeff. I mean, I was probably working like 100 hour weeks for a year straight, and I put on so much weight. There is a corollary between how much we're working and our ability to set these healthy boundaries that's the key here, healthy boundaries. Because if we don't, if we don't set these healthy boundaries, and even in the moment it feels like, well, you don't understand, I have to get this done. I have to get this done. And that's true, you do get to get it done. But if you don't put those healthy boundaries in place, your body will suffer. And I'm definitely raising my hand because that is exactly what happened to me. And Jeff, you shared. Thank you for sharing your story too, about ending up in the er. It's like, just because you're on this path doesn't mean you have this thing perfectly 100% wired yet. I want to ask you these three questions that we're gonna wrap the show with. The first one is, out of all the work you've done and all the things that you've studied around productivity, is there a person or maybe a body of work that you tend to go back to the most?

Ooh, good one. I think the one I tend to lean on more often than not. Is this the work of Michael Hyatt. I probably mentioned before in this podcast because he's the guy that the last probably three or four years, he's my go to guy to learn from in terms of leadership productivity. Just kind of like a compass of how to do business. Well, I owned an event of his a few months ago here in Nashville, where I live. And to see him in person and to watch him interact and to see what he does, I mean, he is a freaking rock star. And it's just so cool to see someone excelling so well, to kind of be that beacon, to say, like, this is how I could operate my life, my business, you know, the way that I function every day. He's an example of someone who really has those clear, healthy boundaries in place. And he's doing so in such a phenomenal way that he's a person I tend to lean on more often than anybody else.

Well, speaking of leaning, this is right question too. How do you maintain this leaning into the daily edge of productivity, while also, Jeff, like in that same moment, practicing the art of accepting what is and letting go? I mean, how do you do both?

Ooh, that's a tough one. I tend to get pretty emotionally wrapped into my work, so I have to find ways to intentionally take a break from that. One thing I like to do is household chores. I work from home, and so I will do the laundry, I will do dishes, I will find anything that takes me out of the moment frequently to make sure that I'm not getting myself too, you know, too far into my work. I think it's really easy to kind of get obsessed with work that you do. And I tend to be that kind of guy who's just the uber focused, you know, all in kind of guy, which has its benefits. But I have to be intentional about taking those breaks to say I'm gonna go do something that's just anything else besides my work, which I think really does help me kind of regain focus on what matters most.

Great point. I love that one. I think about Dan Pardee, who talks about movement snacks, you know, breaking up your day with a 5 minute walk or a 10 minute walk. Do you instill that? Is that part of how you manage both of those two?

Yeah, I mean, certainly. I think that taking attentional walk breaks are great. I think anything that is. I like to do physical stuff because generally my work is digital. And so if I'm on the computer all day, I've got to do the exact opposite of that, which is why I love to build in anything. Actually recently, in the last few months, I started doing woodworking as a hobby. So I'd go into my garage and build stuff because I felt like that was the best way to like very directly not be on the computer, was like work with my hands, hammers and nails and wood and like, you know, banging those things. Just do something that's gonna really get me involved and creatively engaged in something that's not what I usually do. And I found that to be so helpful in so many ways. And so I feel like that's gonna be, for me, probably a long term thing I stick to.

Plus, that's pretty masculine. I mean, you're out there hammering and bending and cutting. That's kind of fun for men to do.

Totally, totally.

Now this physical and emotional. Our last question for today's conversation, Jeff, is at this intersection where we understand that we're half beast, half spirit. We're here on planet Earth in the middle of outer space on a rock. We don't really know what's going on, but we do know that we all have a mission. You seem to have absolutely found yours. What do you feel about wellness now in your life? Has anything changed in the past year? How do you see wellness in Jeff Sanders life?

Wellness for me has shifted big time. I think that if you asked me that same question five years ago, I would have said the answer was running marathons constantly. Now the answer is much more along the lines of long term sustainability. Like, I Want to be a healthy, active guy 30 years from now, 50 years from now. Like, I want to be at my best long term. And so because of that, like, when I go to the gym or when I go to the trails to run, I'm much more thinking along the lines, almost like a rehab mentality. Like, I'm trying to just take care of myself. And I'm trying to make sure that if I do a smart, intelligent, fun workout today, that I'll be able to do that exact same thing again tomorrow and next week and next year. And so the mentality is much more of, like, a little more cautious, a little less aggressive, knowing that in the past, my aggressiveness has backfired and caused me to have injuries and whatever, whatever long list there. But the point being that I think that the approach to say, like, I want to spend my time, you know, taking care of myself and being well with intention, knowing that I want to be well forever. And so that that approach to me is a very different kind of longer term, you know, maybe more a more mature response than before. It was much more just like, you know, banging out, run the marathon, you know, kick butt today, still have that, but it's. It's under the umbrella of I still want to be alive and healthy a long time from now.

So enjoyed this talk, man, so much and really looking forward to the book. We're going to be giving away two copies, so just go to the Wellness Force Facebook page, make sure that you sign up to win the two free copies. We'll give them away seven days after the book comes out on February 28th. Jeff, we talked about awareness. We talked about setting healthy boundaries. We talked about the emotional intelligence that comes to getting things done. What did we miss, man? Can you leave our audience with just one key takeaway that they can do besides picking up the free time formula? What can they do tomorrow or right now when they place the phone down and go out into their day?

One thing that I did mention before that I think is kind of a core component to the book is a phrase I use called cut the nonsense. And what I'm talking about there is nonsense in the sense that anything that just does not ever have to get done, stop doing it. And you can intentionally, like today, after this interview or tomorrow morning, look at your calendar and just go crazy and cut whatever you can. Like, I find so much joy in getting rid of stuff because I know that then that frees up time to make a better choice later on. And so just look at your calendar, look at your to do list and figure out what never actually has to happen and just get rid of it. And that's going to free up a lot of time right away. And then with that new time, you can then of course make that decision later on of what to do with it. But at least begin with cutting because there's so much benefit to seeing tangibly on your calendar that time. Then show up because then you can sense like oh wow, now I have the power to make a new choice. I think that's really, really amazing.

Plus there is something to be said about throwing away old crap that doesn't matter anymore. It feels so good, doesn't it man? I did a clean out this year.

Oh totally. I love that even like physically doing that too. Like clean out your house. You'll throw things away. It's amazing feeling.

It's one of my favorite things and this has been one of my favorite podcasts this year man. So just want to acknowledge you for a second here in the work that you do because everything that you do around productivity and personal development, it's this continuum that we explore so much on the podcast around our physical and emotional intelligence. Jeff so thank you so much man for coming on the show for this three peat and super stoked for two of our audience members to win a copy of your book. So enjoy the day. Thanks for coming on the show and we'll talk to you, I'm sure again for our 4 Pete Awesome.

Thanks Josh thanks man.

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