184 Scott Nelson: What Is Photobiomodulation?

These different wavelengths of light, red and near infrared light, are the two wavelengths that we are delivering through our devices. These specific wavelengths of light fall within what's called the optical window or the therapeutic window. Wavelengths within this window, specifically kind of in the mid 600 nanometer range and then the mid 800 nanometer range, they have a unique ability to penetrate our tissue and to activate an enzyme during cellular respiration called cytochrome C oxidase. And by activating that enzyme, that actually helps break the bond between nitric oxide and that enzyme, freeing nitric oxide to do its thing, but also freeing up cytochrome cioxidase to produce ATP synthase, which is a precursor to ATP. So I know we got into the weeds really quick there, but at the end of the day, these specific wavelengths of light are helping our cells produce more energy. And so that's why when you look at sort of the laundry list of benefits when it comes to photobiomodulation, all of these benefits, things like science, skin health, muscle recovery, joint pain relief, cognitive function, et cetera, they all kind of go back to that core mechanism of action which is basically allowing your cells to do their natural thing at a heightened level.

That was Scott Nelson, and this is episode 184 of Wellness Force Radio. What's up, my friend? It's your host, Josh Trent. And welcome back to another episode for your weekly access to global experts in all things wellness as we discover the physical and emotional intelligence we need to live life well. In this podcast, we're bringing you the contin of physical intelligence, brought to you by our partner, Intelliskin. Our standtallseries on social and across the web is bringing us this compelling conversation from Scott Nelson, the co founder of jood, a red light therapy manufacturer who's changing the health and wellness industry as we know it through photobiomodulation. It's a pretty cool name, isn't it? We're gonna explore the science of what that actually means and why this is.

So interesting is this.

Red light therapy is healing people due to the artificial lights that are killing us. Literally killing. The lack of vitamin D and natural sunlight, combined with our sedentary lifestyles and overhead fluorescence are slowly eating away at our soul. The truth is, millions of people cannot be in the sunlight as much as they want to. But to get them back in their circadian rhythm, this deep healing red light therapy, we're exploring this on the podcast from Scott Nelson today to learn why his wife was experiencing skin issues that actually led them to found Joovv. Their research led to multiple other benefits from recovery and performance for men and women across the world by using this deep, penetrating red light. Now, this light, it's much different than the one that comes out of the sun. And the science behind this points towards mitochondrial activity, which is the powerhouse of our biological selves and our cells. And this podcast is a powerhouse show. Truly fascinating in these areas, we went connecting our emotional intelligence to physical intelligence and red light through a biohacking lens. This episode is for you. If you've been curious about deep healing red light therapy, the difference between sauna and red and infrared, what red light therapy can do for increasing testosterone in men, as well as increasing mitochondrial function and less joint pain for everyone. Now, this is actually the same technology that's used for hair regrowth. You know, the airline magazines. When you're in the airplane, you see those caps with the red light on the inside. This is the same technology scaled in a much more effective way for longevity. And in this conversation with Scott, we're uncovering the story and the science of this powerful, penetrating deep light therapy. And my favorite part is that we're talking about technology which for so many years has made people unhealthy, let's face it, sedentary. And now we're using the other side of the sword. We're healing people with this technology, this photobiomodulation. It's been studied for over 50 years. And I think the timing of why this photobiomodulation, this deep healing red light therapy is perfect is because no one I know is sitting less. Everyone I know is out of the sun and indoors more. This is why it's so powerful that we look at these new wellness biohacking technologies. Be sure to check out our YouTube video over at YouTube.com wellnessforce with Scott Nelson and myself live here in Southern California. Talking about photobiomodulation and getting you back to a life in our busy world that is in more alignment with the way nature intended us to actually be. If you're fascinated by this conversation and you want to give joovv a test drive, just head over to the show notes page, wellnessforce.com enter code wellnessforce on the Joovv site. Get $25 off your deep red light therapy from Joovv. All right, let's jump in with Scott.

This is Josh Trent.

I am hanging out with Scott Nelson.

He's actually from Minnesota, but we're here in California and we're talking about photobiomodulation, which is this phenomenal wing of science that I've recently stumbled upon in the past six months. Scott, welcome to the podcast. So happy to have you, man.

No, thanks for making it work and.

Thanks for having me up here. I feel like I'm in Las Vegas.

It is a unique setup, but we like it. Yeah, for sure.

How did a guy from Minnesota, like one of the coldest climates in the world, make it out to California? Like what's that story?

Yeah, no doubt. Right. Well, definitely feel like the opportunity presented itself probably late last year. We've always kind of wanted to live in a warmer climate. We were in Minnesota primarily because my background is in med tech. And so there was never really that opportunity presented us to live in a, I guess a warmer climate. So when it happened last fall, we kind of jumped at the opportunity. And when we were recording this, our house in Minneapolis is going to close here in another week or so. So, you know, we'll be kind of officially done with with the upper Midwest.

How many years have you been here? How old is joovv the company?

Yeah, so joovv we started R and D work in mid-2015, launched our first product in early 2016 and we were based in Minneapolis up until really January 1st of 2018 here.

Yeah. So this is a new company, but this science is 50 plus years old.

Got it.

This is actually like 5 decades plus of research around this deep pene trading light. It's really light therapy. What is the misconception about light therapy right now? What do people get wrong about light therapy?

That's a good question. So like light therapy, it's sometimes referred to as red light therapy or near infrared light therapy or LED therapy. If you, you know, are go to a spa on any sort of routine basis sometimes maybe an esthetician will use le, you know, they'll maybe use the term LED therapy. In the world of, of academia, you often see the term low level LLLT or low level light therapy or low level laser therapy. Photobiomodulation is a term that you reference. So there's a lot of like terms that are describing one thing. At its core, it's photons of light or certain wavelengths of light and studying how they, how our bodies metabolize those wavelengths of light and the different physiological inner workings of how we digest and metabolize light.

It's funny you mentioned digest because I think people don't realize how powerful light can be. Light is food for our body. This is from your website. Light is food. So the way that we take in nutrients, you know, proteins, carbs and fat that's one thing. But the light that hits our skin, we have photoreceptors in our skin, we have photoreceptors in our eyes. Why do you believe. Why is some of the messaging around Joovv and around this photobiomodulation? Why is light food?

What does that mean to us in full transparency? It's a good analogy for people that haven't really spent much time looking at light or really trying to understand it. And when you start peeling back the layers of the onion, it becomes a function of physics and mathematics and trying to analyze different frequencies of light. And there are different ways they impact our bodies. And so using that analogy, I think most people are familiar with macronutrients, proteins, carbs, fats. And if I eat a high amount of carbohydrates in the evening, my body's going to respond in most cases a certain way. Well, the same sort of general truth holds true for light. So exposing ourselves to something like blue light in the evenings, not the best thing for us. But blue light in the mornings, however, helps to rebalance our circadian rhythm. So there's these different wavelengths of light. And how our bodies basically consume those or metabolize those is somewhat analogous to macronutrients and how we digest food.

The fascinating thing for me is that for millennia we've been circled around the campfire. This orange, this red light, this kind of golden hued light. I know for timing with joov, I've been doing it in the morning. I've been doing it for about four months now. I actually do it. I've talked about this before. I do it completely naked. I do it on a meditation stool. I killed two birds of one stone because I like to batch things. I do a naked meditation. I put The Joovv within 12 inches of, you know, where I pee. And then on top of that, I also do Brain fm. So I combine Brain FM with the joovv and I just start my day like that. For me, it's been this warming effect. I don't know if it has a lot to do with circadian rhythm or is it more about the light that's coming in, like when I'm receiving this light through my skin. Tell us what exactly is even going on for me? Why is it so energizing but yet calming at the same time?

We'll get into the weeds a little bit here from a science standpoint, but it is interesting. So these different wavelengths of light, red and near infrared light, are the two wavelengths that we are delivering through our Devices, these specific wavelengths of light fall within what's called the optical window or the therapeutic window. It's something that's referenced in, in academic literature a lot. And wavelengths within this window, specifically kind of in the, in the mid 600 nanometer range and then the mid 800 nanometer range, they have a unique ability to penetrate our tissue and to activate an enzyme during cellular respiration called cytochrome C oxidase. And by activating that enzyme, that actually helps break the bond between nitric oxide and that enzyme, freeing nitric oxide to do its thing, but also freeing up cytochrome dioxidase to produce ATP synthase, which is a precursor to ATP. So I know we got into the weeds really quick there, but at the end of the day, specific wavelengths of light are helping our cells produce more energy. And so that's why when you look at sort of the laundry list of benefits when it comes to photobiomodulation, it's so extensive, it almost looks like snake oil. We're trying to sell snake oil. But all of these benefits, things like skin health, muscle recovery, joint pain relief, cognitive function, et cetera, they're all supported by published peer reviewed clinical literature. And they all kind of go back to that core mechanism of action, which is basically allowing your cells to do their natural thing at a heightened level. And so that's why the benefits are so wide ranging.

The heightened level is interesting to me. So we're talking about within the cell, the mitochondria. It's this powerhouse. We learned that in like high school biology, right? It's where everything's fluttering around. That's where life exists. It's kind of the energy, it's the fuel for life as we know it. So how does the light penetrate that deep? Is this the only light in the world that can actually get down and help that synthesis happen, help that speed happen?

Different cells in our body are going to be impacted by different wavelengths of light. So as an example, and I'm sure we'll get into this later, but wavelengths like, far infrared wavelengths, the kind that you often see advertised in a sauna, for example, those types of wavelengths are readily absorbed by water in our cells. And so that's why we tend to feel, that's why those wavelengths are great at generating heat. These specific wavelengths of light, I wouldn't say probably are the only ones per se, but they're supported by the most clinical literature. You know, wavelengths in that optical window that I mentioned before, that therapeutic window, those have the unique ability to activate that enzyme at a cellular level. And so that, that's kind of their unique ability is those specific wavelengths of light, you know, are able to do that. Answer that core kind of question, which is how does this actually work? Yeah, well, you nailed it. It works at the mitochondrial level. Within our, within ourselves.

There is a massive difference between the two. I've done the sauna, I've done the steam room, and when I leave those, they're great for detoxification. But what we're talking about with photobiomodulation is a completely separate thing. I want to be really clear. The benefits of photobiomodulation versus steam or sauna, totally different categories. I think people kind of bundle them in the same. Can you cut through the clarity on this for us? Can you tell us a little bit more the key difference between getting in the sauna or the steam room and photobiomodulation?

It's probably one of the, if not the most popular question that we get all the time for people who are kind of doing their diligence on, you know, what is photobiomodulation, what's light therapy? How do I want, I'm interested, but how do I pick a device, etc. You put it exactly the way it should be described. Completely different therapies, both good, both supported by literature. I would argue light therapy or photobiomodulation has a much, much, you know, supported by a significantly greater number of clinical studies, but they are truly distinct. And so saunas, whether it's steam or whether it's, you know, a far infrared sauna, great for heating up your core body temperature, which that's the goal of a sauna, that's what it should do to release heat shock proteins and the sort of, the downstream benefits, you know, of releasing those heat shock proteins where something like photobiomodulation, light therapy, complet different in the sense that we're delivering different wavelengths of light, but the mechanism of action is different. And so you're able to basically increase or help your cells produce more energy. And that's why there's such a laundry list of benefits, is because all of us have so many cells in our body and because we're able to help them function at that heightened level that I mentioned before, you get this wide ranging benefit. But they are, it's just really important when it comes to saunas versus photobiomodulation. It's just important to remember that they are distinct. It's like comparing weight training versus cardiovascular training. Like both good, just different. And so I think it's just important. You know, unfortunately, there's, you know, there's been this trend in kind of the sauna arena, where sauna companies are now, you know, advertising, you know, chromotherapy or phototherapy, which is kind of another, kind of a creative way to call photobiomodulation. And so the evidence on whether or not you can do both at the same time or whether you should be doing both at the same time is, is really not there. In fact, I'm not aware of any clinical literature or any science or research that supported the use of both therapies in tandem. But if you are interested in using both, it's just important to remember if you're using something for the purposes of photobiomodulation or light therapy, you need to really think about two things. One, what are the wavelengths? Are they the wavelengths that have been proven time and time again through hundreds of clinical studies? And then two, what's the irradiance? What's the intensity of these photons of energy that my body's receiving? Because that allows you to calculate, calculate the dose of energy that you're getting. And so even though something, you know, may be delivering, you know, red light or near infrared light, that doesn't mean that you're actually getting a clinically relevant dose, you know, of, of energy. So just kind of important things to consider when you're kind of looking at this.

I would say that's probably the most important thing because when any trends come up, and again, this isn't necessarily a trend, it's. It's tech that's been around for 50 plus years. We'll go back into the science. But I'm curious why you think it hasn't blown up. Why in the past two to three years has there been such a focus on photobiomodulation when it's existed for 50. What's up with that?

I know it's really interesting and the research goes back probably even further of light in general and just the impact that light has on our bodies from a physiological standpoint. But on that note, just an interesting sort of side comment would be the 2007 Nobel Prize winners in physics or medicine. I can't remember.

Something important.

The subcategory. They won the Nobel prize. It was three gentlemen, I believe, three PhDs. They won the Nobel Prize because they answer the question is like, what is the mechanism of action for light in terms of its impact on our circadian rhythm? And so if that's just now, if they're just now being awarded a Nobel. A Nobel Prize for that kind of work. It kind of, it kind of tells you the story that it's been around a while, but like, there is, there is sort of an influx in attention on, on light and its impact on our bodies. But to kind of go to, I guess to. That was sort of an indirect answer to your question, but to kind of go back in time of like, why. Why does this seem like a new thing when it's really an old thing?

Yeah, you could say that about a lot of things in health and wellness. But I'm curious. This is a really specific niche.

It probably helps to maybe tell a little bit of our origin story. So my wife, mother of four kids, and then her sister, mother of six, actually, when we were back in Minneapolis, this was early 2015, they both bought a red light. I'm using air quotes here for those listening on the podcast, but they bought a red light therapy package from a local spa in Minneapolis. Went consistently for about eight to ten weeks. When I say consistently, it was like five or six times a week. But they actually saw really good benefits, mostly related to their skin. So like my, my, my wife's sister, Melissa, she saw some really nice improvements with eczema issues that she had dealt with for quite some time. And then my wife saw some, some skin improvements with respect to like age spots, like brown spots, you know, that come, that come kind of with, with age, especially after, after you have kids. So they saw really good results. But going to a spa that often is obviously really onerous, especially if you have any, any sort of commitments and then also can get really expensive. And so Melissa actually tasked her husband, who's an engineer, her husband Justin. She was like, I really like this thing, but can you build something that we can use at home? I don't want to go to the spa every time. And plus I want you and our kids to benefit as well. And so Justin, I think, sort of begrudgingly like, said, well, okay, like, I think he put it off for a while. Quite honestly. Melissa was persistent enough to kind of push him in that direction. So he started tweaking and building out some prototypes. And then I spent, I mentioned this before, I spent my entire background in or my entire career in med tech. So traditional, like medical device companies like Medtronic and Covidian and Boston Scientific, primarily in the, in the vascular arena. But I started digging into it a little bit as well because I was naturally kind of cynical. It seemed kind of woo woo to me and I'd never heard of it. And it seemed like that's how I felt. Is light, like, can red light really, I mean, can really do these things? This thing, this seems kind of bogus. And so I was like, shocked. I mean, I like to think I'm halfway decent at trying evaluate therapeutic arenas based on my experience. But I was blown away by the sheer amount of clinical literature that's been published on photobiomodulation. But the interesting thing about that is, despite the literally thousands of studies, when you look at the available products, they kind of fell into two categories. One were like commercial grade lasers that you'd have to go to a clinic, again, you have to go to a spa, a physical therapist, et cetera, to receive the treatment. Or on the other side of the spectrum, you had like small, little underpowered handheld devices that you'd see on Amazon or the Home Shopping Network that you could maybe, maybe try to attempt to use it for your face, but they were really underpowered. And so if you spend any time digging into the clinical literature, you realize, you know, a couple things are important. One is the wavelengths, which I mentioned before. The other one is the power, not, not wattage, but something called irradiance or photon flux. And that then allows you to calculate or calculate the dose. And the dose is really important because it's like, it's just like anything. Like how many carbs are in this thing that I'm about to eat? How many grams of protein are in this thing that I'm about to consume. Same thing applies with light therapy. Like how energy am I getting? And is that even relevant based on the clinical literature that exists? And so that was missing in like the existing product offerings. And so we were like, well, it seems like a couple things would make sense here. One is actually to be to develop a device that could deliver a significantly or clinically relevant dose of energy in a short amount of time. Right? Because no one wants to use these things for hours upon hours a day. Like, no one's going to do that. And then two, ideally, like most of the products were like small little handheld devices. And if the mechanism of action holds true, the skin is your largest, you know, your largest organ. Like, it would make sense that you'd want to treat ideally, most of your body, if not all of your body. And that just didn't nothing like that existed. And so anyway, that, that's sort of what set us down the path. We had no intention of like starting a company around this, but it was like, these things seem to be kind of obvious. There seems to be gaps in the market and you know, it's supported by, you know, the therapy alone is supported by, you know, you mentioned it. Decades and decades of research and studies.

So I find it fascinating that it was something for maybe most people when there's initial searches for this, it's around their skin health and kind almost like a vanity concern.

Right.

But yet there's a vanity concern below that though. Did you have any idea that it was going to be so much about cellular health and longevity? This is really a longevity tool and a cellular health tool. I mean the byproduct of that, and this is a perfect metaphor for all people that are passionate about wellness is if you chase the healthy behaviors and you do the things that actually fill you up from a physical and emotional space, the vanity concerns, the vanity things will be a byproduct of that. But when you chase only the vanity concerns, this is what's so unique about the joovv. If you only chase the vanity. Well then your results are gonna be limited.

Yeah.

How do you feel about that paradigm shifting where people are actually using this knowing that it might not be just to correct skin care or just to get rid of spots and things like this. It's more about the healthy human. Longevity for the healthy human.

Yeah. And well it's interesting that you mentioned that because that's one of the things from the very get go that we've tried to message around is not don't, don't use this thing just for skin health. In fact, if you go to our.

There's nothing wrong with looking good naked.

Exactly, exactly. Everyone wants to do that.

Yeah.

And it's, you know, we run some micro surveys on our site just to kind of gauge like why people are buying this device or how do they hear about us. And that is something that is very clear. People do care about their skin and they want to look good, but typically it's a secondary factor. They're buying it to reduce some joint pain or reduce inflammation or increase testosterone. But. But it is an interesting balance and it's something that we from the very get go we've now we've never really heavily marketed or messaged around kind of the beauty aesthetic benefit we've really tried to hone in on. This thing is actually these wavelength light in general is a healthy thing. Everyone should be getting more of it. It's that way because it's good from a cellular standpoint.

Yeah.

And all you'll get all these byproducts but everyone should just be more cognizant and aware of Light. And, you know, this is something I didn't kind of mention. And when, you know, that was one of the reasons that precipitated the move to Southern California is everyone wants, I think everyone, if they had the opportunities to live in a warmer climate. Right. You're from Southern California. You haven't moved.

I've seen the colder climates and I'm like, I want to go back home.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

And no offense to these climates, I mean, they have their own benefits. But I don't know, it's an interesting.

Corollary between longevity 100% and so if you like, we actually fundamentally believe that everyone should be getting more natural sunlight. Something like our device is a great sort of hack, so to speak, or maybe a quicker way to get that. It's not maybe too dissimilar to like, you know, consuming, you know, protein as a supplement as an example, but everyone should be getting more natural sunlight. It's just harder to do in a climate like Minnesota. Right. Or the Midwest in general. Too many gray skies, it's just really, it's just that much more difficult to do. And so that's one of the reasons that, you know, that factored into the decision to kind of move to Southern California.

The colors red. Why is the red so important when we look at. There's purple light? I've seen Jack Cruz talk about purple light. We have people that only use amber light. Why is the red, the specificity of that color, so important? And we also know, I've read in your site that it's within an hour of waking when the sun rise or with an hour of sunset. Is that to correct the chronotyping there? And why red?

So red is just like the visual output of the light. So like near infrared. Right. Those, those wavelengths in that, in the mid 800 nanometer range, those still follow in that optical window. You just can't see them. So it's just the visible spectrum. But on that note, the reason it's important is that, that during the natural sunrise and sunset. Right. There's a reason why, you know, the sunset, for example, is even more demonstrable in this regards. But you can see more red, more orange and more amber, more red. That actually does rebalance your circadian rhythm, you know, by getting more of those wavelengths of light in the evening or even in the morning, just because the sunrise is not as noticeable per se. But you do receive a significant amount of red and near infrared light, orange light as well, amber light light in the mornings and evenings. And so that's actually been studied. It's been shown to actually help your pineal glands submit more melatonin. And melatonin is one of the primary hormones that's responsible for optimized sleep. And so that's why those specific wavelengths of light become really important.

I love that you talked about the Nobel Prize. It's the same piece of the conversation we had with the founder of the Oura Ring where he used that same study to help them use their product to get people back to these ancestral ways of being sky. Isn't this what we're really talking about? Most people might look at a light and they would say, the naysayers, like devil's advocate, they would say, well, why do I need this light when there's plenty of light outside? My question immediately to these people would be, well, how much light are you actually getting? How much time are you actually spending out in that natural sunlight compared to, I would say 80% of the population, which is sedentary in the car, closed windows, maybe tent, going to the office with lights above, and then going home in the dark? I mean, is this the answer to get us kind of back in this natural groove of getting the light we deserve?

Oh, yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think there's. That. There's a pretty well known statistic that, that 93% of, I'm sorry, Americans spend 93% of their time under artificial light.

Oh, and I said 80. I was 13% off.

I mean, that's it. That's a long time. And you think about just the things that we do on a consistent basis. So, like, that's why sleep is so important. We do it for a third of our lives, basically. Right. If you think about how we consume light and knowing that it is important, it's been demonstrated that it's physiological important. But we spend, you know, 95% of our time under artificial light. That's probably not a good thing. Right. And so kind of harkening back to our ancestors and, you know, kind of an ancestral approach, it makes a lot of sense. When you start thinking about it like, I spend that much time under artificial light, it's probably not a healthy thing, and it's been proven time and time again that, that it's not. And so I think if you talk, you know, kind of come full circle on that comment. If you talk to anyone inside, like our company, for example, we would propose that if you're. If this is a whole new topic to you, don't go out and buy a juv light. Right. Go try to get more natural sunlight. That's the great first step. That's the first step that everyone just be more cognizant of it.

Really Honest of you, man.

Yeah. No, I mean, even if it's just like five to 10 minutes, just being more cognizant of light in general, its impact on your health, do that first, right? And then if you get into it and if you realize that, wow, I'm feeling better if I don't expose myself to excess blue light at night, or if I just feel a lot better getting more natural sunlight in the morning, for example, if you're noticing those things and it just becomes harder for you to get that on a routine basis, then maybe make the investment in something like a light therapy device. But the first step should be just be more cognizant. Be more aware of how light does impact our bodies and how much time we spend under artificial light versus natural sunlight.

That is so well put. That's probably the biggest gem from so far. Our conversation I'm getting is we want to return to these ancestral kind of natural human ways of being and living. The light can help us do that. But don't go out and just buy the light. Do the sleep hygiene practice first. Do the light therapy on just getting natural sunlight first. And then if that's an issue and you're noticing, wow, he's right. I am one of those 93% of people that don't get enough light, then invest in something like the Juv. We've already had people asking. I had a friend message me last week like, hey, I know you're going to interview the guys from Joovv. Like, tell me all about it and I'll just tell you my experience. My experience is that for that 15 minutes in the morning, I get peace of mind. I've read the studies about testosterone. There's a huge write up up in Men's Fitness from Ben Greenfield. Can you share just like the quick and dirty from that one? And I say dirty because this dude was like naked in Men's Health or Men's Fitness?

Men's Health.

Men's Health. So we'll link that in the show notes as well. So tell us a little bit about that article. Like where did that come from and how did that even come to fruition?

In classic Ben Greenfield fashion, I get an email that says, hey, I'm doing this thing with Men's Health. Can you assist with this project in any way? Right. On a number of different fronts, from devices to clinical data and serving up some Bytes of information, but, you know, come full circle. He's initially, Men's Health approached him, you know, with, with something small. They realized there's like this really, really significant appetite for more of, like, more, you know, biohacks, right. In traditional kind of their traditional mainstream audience. And so he's now, you know, after I think a year of kind of working with Men's Health has been now kind of their, their de facto test testosterone guru. And so they're, they're funding all of the. Men's Health, I think, is, I believe, is funding all of these different, different, you know, projects or experiments related to testosterone. He's kind of their guinea pig, right? He's their sort of, you know, test, test baby. And so it's an interesting story, for sure. In fact, if you haven't checked out the. I think there's a video. Mint Health did a video.

He's totally naked.

Yeah, it's. It's a pretty interesting. It's. It's a, it's a. Well, it's a well done video. But like he's trying all of these hacks. And so our photobiomodulation was a part of that simply because it's probably. It hasn't been studied as. Well, I know for a fact it hasn't been studied as much as something like joint pain relief for skin health. There is some, some, definitely some early promise that these specific wavelengths of light not only enhance testosterone production, but they also enhance sperm mobility. So enhancing, you know, potentially solve for infertility issues with, with couples that are struggling in that arena.

So this is why I do the naked meditation in the morning. And I just feel, regardless of what's going to happen for me in the long term, I haven't done any n equals 1 where I did like a baseline testosterone measurement and then done the ju for three months. I just feel like that's. That probably doesn't ever get a lot of mitochondrial activity unless there's certain things that we do in the same place that we sleep. So when I look at testosterone in America, I feel like this could be a powerful supplement because let's face it, man, our lives have never been more full. Especially for the men that are listening. The women, your husbands, they're the most stressed, the most full, the most busy. Our testosterone is under attack. In this modern frenetic world, we get to have. It's not that we have to have. We get to have certain things that supplement life, like healthy movement, great sleep, great light from either the sun or sources like this. Do you feel like in a way this is a supplement to course correct to counter correct the really attack on testosterone for men specifically.

Yeah, yeah. I mean testosterone is like, is one example. And I know you, you didn't have your baseline tests done. I haven't either since, you know, using the device for a couple years now. But we have a lot of people that have, you know, Luke Story would be one of them. Dr. John Toma, who runs a, a practice in Scottsdale, Arizona, all guys that, that had their baseline testosterone checked after exposing them to, not only exposing themselves to not only more natural sunlight, but also more therapeutic red and near infrared light in this example, significant increases in testosterone. So there's no doubt it does work. Has it been studied at scale? Not yet. We hope to potentially participate in some of that activity.

That would be cool.

But the core mechanism of action, it makes sense. So there's some different theories as to how it actually does increase testosterone. But one of the, probably the most accepted theory amongst researchers is that it's doing the same thing to your cells just into different body parts. Right. So it's helping your Leydig cells function better, producing more testosterone. And so your lighting cell is responsible for testosterone production in your testes. And so it kind of makes sense, right, if it's helping other cells in my body in different organs or different body parts, the same kind of mechanism of action would potentially hold true in your Leydig cells as well.

So we know the benefits for testosterone. You said that some people have quantified it. There's a hu will link about Ben Greenfield. But what about for women? You know, for men, kind of the big flag is like when we're not working down there, we're waving a flag. We're like, we need help. We get to deserve this support. For women though, what are some of the key benefits specifically for the women that are listening, the women that are watching?

On that note, I'll just address that. That is sometimes a question of like people, you know, women would see, wait a second, it increases testosterone. I don't want my testosterone, I don't.

Want a hairy chest to be increased.

You're not going to see those types of effects, effects at all. Again because, you know, women don't have Leydig cells. You know, you're not enhancing lydic cells to produce more testosterone. On both sides of sort of the male, female equation, the benefits, you know, hold true. So with, with women, most, most women see the most noticeable benefits probably with their skin, right? Those are, those are pretty evident. Almost Everyone across the board, if you did a word map or a cloud map of our reviews, people that use our devices, you know, better skin would definitely be, you know, first or, you know, one. One of the top things that people notice the most. Yeah. Other benefits would be, you know, reduced infl. Reduce joint pain for those female sort of fitness enthusiasts. Definitely an increase in muscle recovery, you know, from a post training standpoint. But also we've got a lot of female athletes now that use it as a pre training tool as well. Especially those that are in, you know, super competitive sports like the Olympics, for example. Got a lot of those types of athletes that are using.

Did you fly some juv. Lights out to the Olympics?

We didn't. We didn't for the Winter Olympics. But we've got Lauren Fendrick, who's. Who actually is here in Southern California, women's volleyball player. She's using our device, both pre and post training training as well. So I mean, those types of athletes that are looking for even the slightest edge, they're gonna notice it. The weekend warrior, you know, that just, you know, wants to, you know, keep in decent shape, like myself, I'm probably not gonna notice a huge benefit pre training. That's not to say that there's not clinical evidence that supports that. So kind of back to your question. When it comes to women, I would say, you know, those things that are very true kind of on the male side, you know, kind of hold true on the female side when it comes to skin health. Reduced inflammation, reduced joint pain, increased muscle recovery. Another one that we haven't talked about is just enhanced cognitive function. That seems to be a common response, again supported by clinical literature as well. Benefits are pretty wide ranging on both male and female sides.

I saw Dave Asprey speak this year, and then I went to Bulletproof last year and he talked about the mitochondria really being this. Not just the powerhouse of the cell, but also it's where pregnenolone is created. It's the mother of all hormones. When I did my FDN training, when I used to work with clients in fdn, pregnenolone was at the top of the tree. It's where all the other hormones are created from.

From.

If you have a pregnenolone steal because your cortisol is out of whack, well, then you're not going to produce healthy testosterone or estrogen or estradiol or anything else. So this mitochondrial function, I'd love for us to get maybe a little geeky on this. The mitochondria aspect, because we talked about for men, like, you know, it'll make that area down there work a little bit better for women, skin health, all these other things. But mitochondrial function, mitochondrial health. This is a really big part of why I believe JUV will be successful. How do we quantify mitochondrial health from a baseline to a lifestyle change using the JoovVF?

I think it's somewhat hard to, I guess, from a pure research standpoint, kind of quantify what does mitochondrial health really mean. But I would say even when you look at a therapeutic arena, or just like the oncology arena as sort of a baseline, most research there is around genomic health. So studying genes. Right. And how cancer maybe manifests itself through genetic history, it does appear that there is a little bit of a course correction, knowing that most of the cancer drugs, for example, don't really work that well, or there's severe disadvantages. So there is sort of an underlying kind of an underbelly or a trend. That's like studying mitochondrial health instead. Right? Not just genomic health, but mitochondrial health. And how the mitochondria, which is like you said earlier, Josh, the powerhouse of our cells, how do you enhance this thing to actually function better? Better, right. Because when you look at something even like cancer, for example, it is a cell.

It's just a cell we don't want.

Yeah, yeah. It's a cell that we don't want that's gone wild. Right. And so it's a dysfunctional cell. But if we can help our cells function the right way, it would seem like that's like the underlying issue with most chronic diseases, cancer included. And so kind of the shift kind of in the study of how to enhance mitochondrial health through a number of different mechanisms I think is definitely important. And light, obviously, is a part of that equation. It's not the only equation, by no means, but it is part of that equation. And we kind of mentioned, like, the core mechanism of action. You do see other byproducts, Right? A shift in cellular redox is one of those. Right.

What is cellular redox? I've never heard of that.

It relates to the oxidation of your cells. And so when you get this shift in cellular redox, there's a lot of different byproducts. So there's enhanced cell signaling. So enhanced gene transcription would be another sort of byproduct of this shift in cell.

So less oxidization, less corrosion. If you cut an apple, it turns brown, that kind of thing.

Yeah, yeah, similar. Yeah, that's probably a good parallel there's all these byproducts, but that core mechanism of action of being able to activate that enzyme, I, cytochrome C oxidase. Because when our cells are under stress, from a wide variety of reasons, whether it's you're not getting enough sleep, all of these different things stress our cells, right? I mean, they stress our bodies. But when you, when you go a little bit deeper, they stress our cells. And when our cells are under stress, they produce a lot of reactive oxygen species. They produce excess nitric oxide. And I mentioned this earlier. When our cells produce excess nitric oxide, too much of it, it does bind to that enzyme, that cytochrome C oxidase enzyme, CCO is the acronym often used in literature. But when it binds to that, that, that halts the normal, the normal production of ATP. So, you know, during the electron chain transport throughout all of cellular respiration, especially during the fourth phase, well, when excess NO binds to cytochrome C oxidase, that's not normal. That's not a good thing. And so that's where light, red and near infrared light specifically, that's kind of where they do their magic. It splits that, breaks that bond between those two, those two molecules. Nitric oxide is then released into the circulatory system. That's why a lot of, lot of dudes especially feel that vasodilation from, from red and near infrared light light. But nitric oxide, when released properly, is good, but that also frees up, you know, your cells to actually function normally, right? To produce the, the ATP that our cells need to function. And so that's where, I mean, we're getting, you know, really, really into the end of the weeds. But that's where, that's where this stuff, you know, happens.

I'm totally fascinated by this because I think a lot of people might have a question of, well, how do I measure it? If I can't measure it, then how do I actually know it's working? And to that I'll say, how many other things in life do you, you apply that same methodology to, you know, you don't know why you like someone, you just like them. And so with people, feeling is the most powerful report card. Sure, if you have athletes and everyday weekend warriors that are feeling over the course of time through getting photobiomodulation, it's that feeling. How do you feel in your body? This physical intelligence, this body's intelligence is the most powerful report card. If you need, if you're a question or personality type and you need the data and the analytics, like you guys have that?

Sure.

But I think for most people, is this a sweeping trend that you're seeing where there's feedback from athletes, everyday people, who is the consumer? Like who buys the joovv the most? Is it the athletes? Is it the moms, is it the dads? Like who are they?

Honestly, wide ranging? I think most people would assume there's a high female percentage, which is true. I think the majority of our customers are female. But it's split pretty evenly. It's probably a 55, 45 split, 60, 40 split in the direction of females. But we get kind of an equal representation because the benefits are so wide ranging. But I mean, if you don't mind, I'll go back to that point about like just your point earlier about how can you actually quantify this? Right. And we, you know, especially from the mitochondrial standpoint. Yeah, yeah. And I, and I would say like with something like photobiomodulation, are you going to be able to like quantify how much more ATP your cells are producing? I think that's probably a tall ask. But if you do look at a properly structured clinical trial and there's hundreds of them with respect to photobiomodulation, I guess there's a lot of them that are double. They're like level 1A or 1B. B classified as level 1A or 1B in terms of clinical studies, meaning that they're double blind, they're randomized, they're sham controlled or placebo controlled. And so if the clinical study is structured right, you can kind of, anyone can kind of poke holes in anything. But I mean with so much evidence, it's pretty clear that light, it is working at a mitochondrial level. So I think you can rest assured for the science nerds out there, for the people that are more cynical, I was too. You can rest assured that there's data there. But, but even I guess the other side of that is the whole feeling. Right. Yeah, I feel better. That's harder to quantify. But I even think in traditional, like my background as I mentioned is med tech. But I started to see this even in my days at like at Convenient and Medtronic where studies would be funded and technically the efficacy of a therapy wasn't as good as. So so therapy B wasn't as good as therapy A from an efficacy standpoint when you just look at the data. But when you looked at the quality of life surveys from the patients that were treated with both therapies, they were on par. They were equal. So someone treated with A and someone Treated with B, they felt just as good. Right. From a quality of life standpoint, even though A was technically better. And so there is this. I think there's this underlying trend throughout all of kind of medicine in general that quality of life does matter. So even if you, if you feel better, that matters. Right. Even if there's like not hardcore data that suggests something in this scenario, we don't have to kind of worry about that as much just because there is really hardcore data. But the whole, the whole quality of life or kind of feeling thing, it's important, right? I mean, it really is.

It's truly everything. And I guess maybe for my analytical, my logical mind, it's possibly too challenging to see a baseline and then mitochondrial function and get an exact number on how much my mitochondrial density or activity has grown. It's possibly just not out there. Unless you're in some huge lab ward at Stanford.

Yeah, yeah. And I'm not even sure how you possibly even. I mean, I wouldn't be the one to ask this. Yeah, I don't have a PhD behind my name, but I've never run a. Run a research lab. Lab. But I don't even know how you could effectively measure mitochondrial health or stimulating mitochondria. I'm not. That'd be a question for someone like Dr. Rhonda Patrick, maybe a cellular biologist or something like that.

So then who are some of the other people out there? So I've been using the Drew for four months. Has there been cases? I'm sure you get a lot where people like writing in, like, my life, my skin, my body for men, my sex, whatever it is, they're writing in a lot. But is there one or two that pops into your consciousness that you really still.

I like to think that we do a healthy job of trying to encourage feedback. We want it. How people are using our devices, what are they seeing, both from a positive standpoint and negative standpoint as well. But you're right in the sense that as more and more people adopt this therapy, our devices included, the feedback is pretty overwhelming. I think We've got over 300 five star reviews on our devices specifically. But one story that I think this was probably a review from maybe three or four months ago, it was an older lady that was using her device. And I think actually it was her daughter that actually wrote the review. I think it was her mom that I think was moving into a different facility. And the mom, I'm paraphrasing here because I don't remember the exact words, but she said Something along the lines of, you can get rid of anything during this move. You can get rid of anything I have. I don't care. But the one thing that you can't touch is the juv light. Because she sees she's using it on a daily basis and relying on it so much. You're seeing such a great impact from the therapy. That's pretty cool that it's like you can get rid of. For someone to make that comment. You can get rid of liter, everything. I don't care. But don't touch that one thing because that's. That's pretty important.

Did she say why exactly was the way it made her feel that take away her joint pain? Like, what was it about? Why did she say you can't get rid of it?

Yeah. No, in full transparent. I don't remember exactly like why she wanted. But it was something along.

Is it cool that she said it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, that's the thing that I remember most. That was like, I read that review and I was like, wow, that's. That's pretty. That's pretty killer.

So, Scott, the name Joovv, is it Swiss? Is it French? Like, why call this photobiomodulation Juve? What is that?

I like to think there's some, like, some analytical algorithm as to where we came up with it. But it was like I said before, we didn't really intend to build a company around this. It seemed like there was some pretty significant gaps in terms of like the product offering. And so I think it was in our early days trying to throw up a website and like, what do we call this? And what are the dot coms that are available? They're few and far between, especially if you want a short one. And so we liked the idea of. We didn't want to call it some, you know, skin therapy or something along those lines where it was aesthetic. We really like the concept of rejuvenating. Right. Rejuvenating. Your cells are rejuvenating. You're rejuvenating your health. And so joovv is just a shortened, kind of a clever way of, kind of trying to capture that spirit of rejuvenation.

I love the story behind names. Thank you for sharing that. I want to shift too, because I'm thinking about where we've talked about the science, we've talked about the physical intelligence, how we feel they're equally as important. So this product really meets people who are like, in their head or in their heart. I feel like it meets both people. People. Now the Hair regrowth thing. I've seen caps in the airport. They have those LED lights like on the caps. Is that different than Joovv or what's the hair regrowth aspect of this?

That's the exact same type of therapy. So photobiomodulation just delivered in a different format. The one limitation of light therapy right now is really depth of penetration, I guess. So the ability to deliver light to a certain body part. Right. And the proximity of that light to the body part because like I said before, jewels matter. Right. And so the closer you can get this device or this therapy therapy to your skin, that's the less you probably have to use it, just because you're going to get a higher dose of energy. And so something like the helmet, it's actually delivering very similar wavelengths of light. Most of those helmets, I don't think there's a lot of them, but there's a couple that are delivering red light in the mid-600s. That's been studied. And it's very, very clear that these specific wavelengths of light in the mid 600 nanometer range do enhance hair growth. And so a helmet is just a different form factor, a different way to deliver that light, but it's the same type of therapy. So, so our devices are a little bit different in the sense that it's kind of a full body, at least right now, our offerings, it's a full body panel designed kind of under the guise that this therapy is great for your whole body. Right. Not just one single body part. But the helmets are very similar, just a different form factor.

So it's really like, who are you, what do you do, what are your goals? Maybe there's different sizes of juve, there's a medium sized one, there's a huge one where athletes stand and get bathed in this whole light before. I think I almost saw something on social media last week or even yesterday about the American Ninja Warrior. Are you guys involved with American Ninja Warrior and their kind of pre flight checklist for athletics?

Yeah, yeah. In fact, one of our guys is flying out to Dallas to actually take part in the, in the show. So I think they're gonna, they're gonna try to feature their, their top ninjas, you know, using the JOOV as both a pre training and post post training recovery tool. But we're seeing a lot more of that. And it's not something that we've aggressively like tried to try to promote or market towards. It's just we're getting a lot of inbound interest with these really Interesting organizations. American Ninja War being one of them. We've got professional athletes in all the mainstream sports, so ufc, mlb, NFL, NBA, et cetera, that have proactively reached out to us to want to use these devices. It's typically the early adopters within these mainstream sports. But it's pretty clear there's a strong interest in the concept of full body light therapy.

Does it matter if you look at the light for too long? We know that there's photoreceptors in the eye. And I think some people, you know, they're scared of even looking at the sun, which there is some deleterious things about the sun. If you look at the sun for too long, your eyes can get kind of effed up.

Oh, yeah.

But with photobiomodulation, with Jude, with this lighting, because it penetrates so deep into our skin, is there a danger if it penetrates our eyes?

It's the exact opposite. And so that's why we encourage people, as much as you can, keep your eyes open during the therapy, because, again, these wavelengths of light, these specific wavelengths of light actually have been proven to enhance retinal function in your eyes. And. And again, it all makes sense, right? Our eyes, our retinas, they have cells. And so by enhancing cellular activity, you're actually not only enhancing retinal function, but in some studies have actually shown that you get significant healing, actually. So people that are suffering from something like macular degeneration, they're actually seeing significant results from a healing standpoint, too, by receiving therapy through their eyes. And then kind of. On another note you mentioned, we have photoceptors in our eyes, but just receiving these wavelengths of light, light through our eyes, where our retinas are attached to the hypothalamus gland. This hasn't probably been completely sort of solved or proven out, but by receiving light through your retinas, and that almost helps to balance your hypothalamus gland, which is responsible for so many different hormones in our body. And so, yes, it helps from a pure vision standpoint, but also there's kind of like some downstream benefits as well by receiving these types of wavelengths through your eyes.

What about time, length? I do it for 15 with my meditation naked on my meditation stool. Are there a limit to the efficacy? At what point is there a line of demarcation where the time doesn't really matter anymore? Is it 15, 20, 30? What is it?

Sure. So, I mean, your concept of stacking those different therapies, I think that's great. Troy, on our team takes A lot of the conference calls naked in front of his device, too.

Not group conference calls, though, right?

No video, just. Just. Just audio. Um, but no, that's. That's a great way to, To. To receive the therapy. But to answer the question around how long do you. Do you use it? Um, it really comes down to. I don't want to get too specific here, but it comes. Some of it's due to how, how, like how far away you are from the device. So generally speaking, we recommend for kind of proactive health, we recommend standing or sitting about 6 inches from the device for about 8 to 10 minutes or so, something like that. At that distance from our device. Device, with the power we deliver from our device, you're getting about six to seven joules of energy per minute, which, you know, over the course of 10 minutes is about 60 Joules, which is a clinically relevant dose. So if I'm standing two feet away, I can use the device longer. I'll have to use the device longer to receive the same type of dose. So it kind of is dependent upon how you're using the device and more specifically, how far you are from. From the device itself. But in terms of answering, like, very specifically that question. Question is, do you reach a point where too much. It's just too much. Yeah. And so at the recommended treatment distance of 6 inches or so, with a device like ours going anything longer than probably 15 to 20 minutes, you're probably just not going to receive a whole lot of benefits. You do reach a point where our bodies simply cannot metabolize that much light. And so you just. You see a significant fall off. It's almost like Pareto's, you know, Pareto's law to a certain extent, where you'll get 80% of the results, you know, in that 20% of the treatment time. But if you try to go longer, you're not gonna hurt yourself. But those benefits do fall off after. After a certain amount of time.

We could say the same thing, Scott, about supplements. You know, people that take so many supplements and they're urinating thousands of dollars out, you know, exactly every single month. So you're not gonna hurt yourself is what I'm hearing from you. There's no. There's no way to overdo the light. But I would say for most people, it's probably gonna be between this, like, 10 to 30 minutes, somewhere in between 15, 20, something like that. How do we know when we're done, though? You know, is it something where we just. Since we are going a lot with this scale of proof on the body's intelligence feel. How do we know when we're done using the light? That's just a question for me as well.

Yeah, it probably depends on how probably in tune you are with your, with your body. And that sounds, that may sound a little bit kind of vague, but we do have, we routinely have customers that they're so almost light deprived, and I'm kind of generalizing here, but they're almost light deprived where they can only use our device because of the power for two or three minutes. And they noticeably feel almost like a detoxing effect, which kind of makes sense because there's definitely evidence that suggests that these types of wavelengths are helping your immune system shift from an M1 phenotype to an M2 phenotype. So enhancing basically your immune system to function at a heightened level. And so it kind of makes sense when someone that maybe is light deprived and then gets this sudden dose of energy and feels like this kind of detoxing effect. It kind of sort of makes sense. But in that scenario, like our recommendation would be, well, just hold, hold off, actually just listen to your body, body, you know, your body does tend to know best in most scenarios. And so listen to your body and just maybe start slow, right? Go one or two minutes, you know, and just kind of steadily increase your exposure over time to your original question. Like, how do I know I'm done? Well, just know that kind of going back to like the core cellular health benefits, you are benefiting. Even if it's not totally noticeable, you are benefiting even if it's just not. It's not like you're going to, you're sweating in a sun, you know, so it's not. But just based on the pure science, you are benefiting, you know, with a, you know, a treatment time of anywhere from, you know, five to 10 minutes, you are getting benefit even though it may not like be. Be completely evident.

I guess this is what's been so fun about our conversation is this blend of science and our body's intuition. Like when we go in a sauna, we kind of know when we're done, we're like tired, we're ready to get out. I think the same thing applies to the joov. I have three final questions for you, and the first one is around physical intelligence. Since you've started this company, the co founder and you've been working probably a lot, you know, you travel a lot. I've seen you at all the conferences. What is an edge right now for you in Your own physical practice, your own physical intelligence.

I would say it's probably, and it may sound kind of kind of routine or kind of basic, but probably spending more time alone by myself to really gather my thoughts. And it's something that you mentioned in the interview you did with us that we posted, you know, a while ago, but just having that. That time alone to kind of clear my thoughts, you know, practice some. Some breathing, as simple as that sounds. I'm kind of a minimalistic guy in general.

Yeah.

But intentionally looking for that time, I think is probably one of the edges I would probably call out the most.

Well, man, you and millions of people.

I think.

I think for most of us in this frenetic world, having that, carving that out to just be with our breath.

But, dude, it's. It's. From my perspective, it sounds so simple, but intentionally trying to do it on a consistent. This is another. Is another thing.

Well, just because it's simple don't mean it's easy.

Oh, yeah, right. Yeah. And just one of the examples, I mean, we were kind of chatting about this, you know, before we hit the record button, but simply deleting my social apps from my phone is like. Was like, one step in that direction of like, I can't. If I'm in bed and I wake up in the morning, I don't have that excuse of like just hitting the Instagram button or the Facebook button. It's not there. It doesn't exist. So, you know, pulling those types of levers to. To like, to help me intentionally, you know, get more time to clear up, more time from. From a mental standpoint, I think is. Is kind of important.

God, thank you for mentioning that. I don't think we can be reminded enough to not sleep with our phone in the same damn room. Like, get your phone out of your bedroom. You know, Dr. Parsley has a technology free room. Same with Dr. Mercola. No technology in their room at all. Like, completely free of it. When it comes to your emotional intelligence, it's something that we're always growing, you know, our presence with ourselves, our relationship with other people. What's an edge you can share with us about your own emotional intelligence in your life right now?

It coincides with probably the carving out of time to sort of mentally not necessarily unwind, per se, but just kind of. Kind of think and breathe. But alongside that, I do intentionally try to practice gratitude. You know, it's something like, for me, I'm challenged with, not in the sense of, like, I don't feel like I'm A negative person, by no means at all. But I. I'm a driver. Like, I'm a. I'm a pretty. A type kind of guy. I like to move fast, and if something is going well, I tend to think about, like, what's next to continue that mo. The momentum. And so taking time to, like, actually think and be grateful for certain things is not. It doesn't come easy to me. So, like, making sure I'm intentional about that, I think is the emotional edge. I guess there's something that's giving me a little bit more of an emotional edge.

Gratitude has been measured. It is the highest frequency when we're feeling gratitude. When they've done neurofeedback studies with the people, it reverberates the highest vibration, the most electricity comes out of our body. So it's funny. You're the head of this technology company that involves deep light therapy, and your number one practice is gratitude. One you're receiving vibration, the other one you're putting it out. So that was a really awesome reminder for all of us. The last question for you is this journey we're all on, man, this wellness journey. How do you define this? How do you define wellness in Scott's life?

Wellness, I think by nature. I think I personally tend to gravitate more towards physical wellness. Right. It's easy to gravitate. And probably most of your listeners are like, well beyond that. Right. But. But I'm not. I tend to like, naturally gravitate towards. Towards like, the physical aspect of wellness, but over time, especially as things get incredibly busy balancing that out or almost shifting it in the. In the opposite direction, where emotional wellness is weighted even more heavily than physical wellness, I think that's kind of where my head's at right now. And really, really intentionally trying to prioritize emotional wellness. It's something that I'm really trying to focus on. So like, basically trying to balance. Better balance those to, in fact, almost arguing to myself that I should be placing a higher priority on emotional wellness. And so kind of that's where my head's at right now. But all this stuff is like, I feel like is routinely talked about, like, in our. In our circles. But it's one thing to like, talk about detecting your bedroom. Right? But most people, I would argue probably most listening, haven't done that. Right. They haven't deleted their. I'm not saying you have to delete your social apps, but, like, for me personally, that's helped a ton. It just is one more thing that, that, like, it's Not a. It's not a crutch. It's not something that's readily available to me. It's just gone. Right. And so I found that for my personality, that's something that I. It's a lot more freeing. So I think being intentional about some of this stuff and really not just hearing it, but actually really, really intentionally trying to try to practice this stuff is a, is a different story. And so balancing that physical and emotional layers of wellness, I think is an intentional practice that I'm. I'm really trying to pay more attention to.

Scott, mic drop. That was so beautifully put. Man, this has been fun up here. I'm curious, what's next for Joe Juv? You know, you talked about all these partnerships and we know how powerful light is. It's lightest food, lightest food for our skin and our eyes. What's next for you guys?

Without getting too specific, I think we'll definitely an interest in rolling out new products, you know, down the road. I think that's definitely something any good company should be focusing on, right. Is having a healthy R D R and D pipeline. But I think we'll all, you know, we'll continue to focus on light and its impact on our bodies. And I think in addition to that, what's lacking probably in clinical literature the most with respect to photobiomodulation is, is full body, the study of full body applications. And so I think I see us not only leading, but participating in a lot of that, in a lot of those. That type of research. Just because most studies that we've talked about are usually involving light therapy when targeting a very specific aspect of our bodies. And so the study of how full body are being exposed to these wavelengths from a systemic standpoint, what are the benefits, both obvious and maybe not so obvious benefits of, of that. And so I think we'll probably, probably start to see us maybe play in that space a little bit more.

This is such an exciting time to be alive. I'm going to go in cue with you, man, and practice gratitude. Just pause at the end of this interview for how grateful we can all be that we live in an age where this technology can even exist. So I just want to thank you for what you're doing in wellness and fitness and in health, even having this as a part of your wellness program. It's a beautiful addition. It's a supplement. It's not some golden piece ticket. No one's going to have their life transformed overnight. But just like everything else we do, you know, we take these small steps towards physical and emotional intelligence. That's what makes us well. So thanks for having me, man. Thanks for what you do in our industry. And this is Josh and Scott signing off. We will talk to you very soon. Also make sure that you check out the show notes from this because they gave us a cool discount where you can pick up one of these lights, give it a test drive, give it a shot, make it part of your program and we will talk to you very soon.

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