222 Amber Rae: Shifting Shame Into Wonder

We're not listening to the wonder often because I find that we don't know how or we've been so conditioned or trained to listen to the worry, to trust the worry, to think the worry is true and right, and we're not pausing to question our own stories. And, you know, how we get back into that space of wonder really is curiosity, courage, and compassion. When we can pause and say, wait, you know, where did I learn this? Where do I come from? And is actually this belief serving me? That's when we can begin that curiosity is when we begin to rewire toward wonder.

That's bestselling author Amber Ray. And this is episode 222 of Wellness Force Radio. In this podcast, we're talking about a new kind of personal transformation, something that most men and women aren't even aware of. The power that can be harnessed from a natural state we experience as children that can be used to create relationships, wealth, and health and in our adult life. And that power is wonder. But how do we do this? How do we shift all the stored memories from our ancient brain and the Habenula, or even, as Deepak Chopra says, the conditioned bundles of nerves that our society has created way deep in our subconscious mind? How do we shift shame into wonder? We're exploring this on the podcast today with my friend, artist and speaker who has devoted her life to inspiring people to express the fullness of their gifts. And her writing has reached over 5 million people in almost 200 countries. This conversation is with the one and only Amber Ray. Now, before we get into the podcast, I want to take a deep breath with you because I need one personally, and so do you. I'm sure. This is your breath break. Take a big inhale, put your hand in your belly, pull in as much air as you can for five seconds, and as you exhale, allow yourself to feel grateful for the fact that you're here in this meat suit on a rock in the middle of outer space. We don't exactly know why we're here, but yet the more we learn, the more we know it's most likely to live and love well that expectation. And over the past three years, I've been doing my very best to not have expectation and to trust the process. But just days ago, I checked into the emergency room because I was so weak. I was actually concerned for my own health. And this is real for me. So many of us that push the gas pedal all the way to the floor, this challenge of trusting and listening to our unique physical intuition, when to ease off the gas pedal. This is a learning curve that I learned the hard way this past weekend. I'll be doing a solo show here coming up soon to talk about what it meant for me, what I went through, so that I can share this learning experience, however uncomfortable it might be with the Wellness Force community. Now we're gonna be making some changes to the show so that I can take greater care of my own health. But we're not going anywhere. Don't worry. We're just gonna shift around some things so I can devote more time and energy to my own wellness. So it's gonna be a mirror of truth for all of us to take an inventory. This part of life, this is, this pivoting and adjusting that we go through. It's the hardest thing sometimes, but it's also the times where I feel I've grown the most. And we're gonna grow together. I'm just gonna be freeing up some time so I can eat my own dog food and practice what I preach. But I wanna thank you, everyone, and you listening for your messages on social media. When I was in the emergency room, it just meant so much to me and I felt so much love from our community. So thank you. Now, before I forget, we are gonna be giving away two free copies of Amber's insanely powerful book. Choose Wonder over Worry. Move beyond fear and doubt to unlock your full potential. You can win a copy, one of two copies of this book. All you have to do is leave a review for the show and a random computer will choose your name and then we'll send you out the book in the mail next week. So tap on your phone right now. Actually, you can be entered to win a free copy. One of two copies of Amber's book. Choose Wonder over Worry and hit the link that says review this podcast. You can also just go to wellnessforce.com review now. Coming up, Amber talks to us about how we can go from worrying to rewiring our mind to wonder. Her process of healing while struggling with her previous uses of alcohol and Adderall while working in the music industry. Why this book almost actually didn't get written. The dangers of replacing negative thoughts with positive ones too fast without understanding why they're there in the first place. And we talk about a new concept on the show, the danger of being what Amber calls the tone police, not allowing full expression to flow through. We also explore the practical things you'll be able to do as soon as you listen to the last words of the show. When you place down your phone, you can Then shift shame into wonder through Amber's lessons. Show notes from today are@wellnessforce.com 222Episode 222 Let Amber know you heard her power and her voice here on Wellness Force Radio. Now let's drop in with Amber Ray. So the language in our lives so important. And I'm talking with Amber Ray today on the podcast. Amber, welcome to the show.

Thank you. It's amazing to be here.

You know what? This book, it almost didn't get written. We're going to talk about why choose wonder over worry? But we have so many unique friends that have connected us and allowed us to really share this wisdom that you've cultivated. Gosh, it's been 10 plus years. This book actually is a culmination of all the thresholds that you've crossed and all the people that have really been so deeply touched by this work. But one thing that was really exciting to me is one of my kind of virtual mentors that I've learned from for the past three years. She's been a mentor to you. And it's Brene Brown on your site. Curiosity is contagious. Amber Ray is the Brene Brown of wonder from Mind Bodygreen. Like, tell us, Amber, have you met this woman in person?

Not yet. Key word there yet. But I am so inspired by who she is, the work she does and just the way that she's been a mentor for me to look at my own emotions, look at my own stories, reframe, reconnect. And I feel like she guided, she was such a guide from afar, guiding me to my life's work.

Yes. And it truly is going to be, I believe, your life's work for probably the next, you know, 10, 20, 30, 40 years. I'm excited to see what you're going to create beyond wonder and worry. This contrast because, Amber, gosh, we see so many people right now that we deeply have loved and respected. No longer with us. Right. You know, Anthony Bourdain and Kate Spade. And we'll talk about the connection you have with Kate Spade actually later in the show. But this choice that we all have, it's like on one side there's fear, on one side there's love. And I love the way that you contrasted this with wonder over worry. Why do you actually think, though, Amber, why do so many people lose their wonder in this lifetime?

Well, you know, wonder is what we're born with. We come into this world so curious in a space of discovery and adventure. I know that was for me and then that was Socialized and conditioned out of me, both between the system of education and who I thought I was supposed to be and how I thought I was supposed to be perfect and performing and show up in a certain way in order to be worthy and loved. And then you look at the advertising industry, which I remember being an 11 year old girl looking up at a billboard not knowing it was a photoshopped model, thinking something was wrong with me because I didn't look that way. And so there's this inflection point, usually between like 8 and 13, where we start to realize, wait, are we good enough as we are, as we see more information, as we see the way that the world exists. And that's really when the worry where it's that inner voice inside of us of am I good enough? Do I matter? Do I fit in here? Do I belong? I think of middle school and that time of wanting to fit in and belong. And that really can take us into the gauntlet of worry. And the thing about worry is that our brain is wired to worry. And so the question becomes, how do we reclaim and rewire for wonder?

Oh, and this is really the unfolding of our conversation, right? So I look at the power of language. I think so many people, Amber, possibly underestimate this power of language. Even the way that you've articulated this, you know, shifting from worry into wonder. It's so fascinating to me and to all of us. But what's been your curiosity personally with language? When did you first start to understand the power of language?

I mean, I've always been obsessed with language. Always. I remember being a 5 year old girl with my first journal and wanting to say things like in a way that felt right and not like right versus wrong, but like I was always looking for the words to describe my emotional experience. And that was just sort of who I was. And I feel like I lost that for a while going down, you know, the. Going down a totally different path, not realizing. I feel like as a kid I was a creative, a poet, a writer, not knowing that something could actually be made of that. But that started really young for me and I think it was really pronounced. I had. My dad actually died in a car accident and he. Well, he got in a car accident when I was three and that led to a coma and it led to him being in a care center. He never fully regained his consciousness, but he passed away when I was 12. And when he passed away, I remember looking for the words to describe my grief and looking for the words to describe my anger toward him for making bad decisions and not facing himself and looking for the words to also cultivate. And so I think there were these few moments in my life where I was just always looking for the words.

This eternal search for expressing our deepest truth. And there's these exercises. Thank you so much, Amber, for sharing that with us, because I had to take a deep breath. I don't even know what that would be like to lose someone in that way. And I think, honestly, that's a testament to how powerful the words you've written truly are for people to understand. And I think about this threshold of losing someone through grief. Do you feel like when people go through an injury or when they lose someone, that's really when the worrying instead of the wonder actually starts to be imprinted?

Yeah. I feel like grief can show up in so many ways. And I actually talk about grief. I love the concept of grief in the book, because grief can be. I had this project and it didn't work out. Or grief can be. I really was counting on this person, and they didn't show up for me. Or grief can be actually someone, you know, literally dying and transitioning and leaving our life forever. And so grief can happen in small and big ways, but it definitely, you know, marks a scar on our heart, particularly if. If we don't have the tools to understand it or process it or sit with it or allow it to transform.

Yeah, but this is real for so many people, and they don't take the educated approach like you have. A lot of people fall into traps, right? Addiction and drugs, and this is what we see with so many leaders, especially people in the music industry. I know you were in advertising and digital for quite some time. You had your own path with this. And I'd love if you're willing to share how Adderall and alcohol played a role in you now becoming this leader that can speak from a place of deep truth with what actually was going on in that healing time with the alcohol and the Adderall.

Totally. So I don't actually think I processed the grief of my father and the absence of him until I was in my mid-20s. And, you know, I had this moment. I was 12 years old. I got the news of his death, and at this point, my mom had remarried, and so I had a stepfather. And I've actually never shared this part of the story, but for some reason, I'm feeling compelled right now. And so he was wanting to play the father, and I was grappling on the inside with someone who, like, wanted to be this person, but there was the absence of the real person. And then, you know, he had his own insecurities around allowing, you know, he wanted to be that figure so badly that there was almost grief and anxiety about me really owning that grief because I thought it would hurt them and hurt him. And so, you know, I almost felt like I wasn't allowed to process it, like it wasn't safe. And so that I feel like culminated for me in eating disorders and wanting to look perfect, wanting to control everything. Typically, people with eating disorders, it's because they feel a lack of control. And so I felt this lack of control, wanting to control. And this really culminated at the same time. I was like perfectionist eating disorders, but killing it academically and 4.0, wanting to make strides in my career. And this led me to work with Apple and work with major brands and popping Adderall to get more done. I then moved into the world of Silicon Valley where it was all about more, better, faster. And what I can say now is that I realize I had this father sized hole in my heart, and I was trying to fill that with validation and approval, particularly from men. And so I was drawn to the world of tech because I thought there I would be approved by men. Adderall was a way for me to perform better and also stay thin, which I thought would win me more validation from men. It was this like really, you know, cyclical process. And it wasn't until that led to this full blown on the floor of my apartment, panicking, shaking with my Adderall, racing heart beating out of my chest, that I realized, whoa, how did I get here?

Oh, my gosh, Amber, I remember reading your book. You said that Adderall almost killed you. Was it in that moment, like, did you actually feel, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna die.

I thought. I literally thought I was going to die. And I had this like, slight seizure moment as a side effect of the Adderall. And I didn't need Adderall. I didn't have attention deficit disorder. I was just a high achiever who wanted to do more, who lied to a psychiatrist to get a prescription. And so it was like I was desperate. That's how desperate I was. But when I was opening the bottle of Adderall, I wasn't opening it to like, I was opening it. It was like I was popping approval and thinking that that was the way to approval and love the way that.

You contrasted this too. I'm just like sitting here visualizing you taking these little pills and putting them in Your body. And every time you'd swallow them, you'd feel, oh, this is actually how I'm worthy.

Exactly, exactly. I was literally like thinking I was popping self worth. But it couldn't have been, you know, it couldn't have been the opposite. And that. And that's when I had. That was one of my big aha moments, because I realized, holy shit, I'm actually following in the footsteps of my dad. Even though, because he was this brilliant singer, songwriter, he was following his dream. His band was called Dreamer to Nashville, and he wanted to be this music star. And he was also a brilliant businessman. My mom said he was the smartest man she's ever met. And most like charismatic and brilliant. And yet he had all of these demons he wasn't facing. And so that looked like very much the sex, drugs, rock and roll. He was having a lot of aff. Cocaine, you know, alcohol abuse, a lot of that. And I realized, whoa, you know, Adderall is not that. It's also. It's a stimulant like cocaine. And while mine was more for productivity and success, I realized that I was falling into a lot of the same traps and not facing a lot of demons that he had.

I want to set a pin for this really quick too, because this is so powerful. So everyone can really take this. In the pin between Adderall and what you went through in losing your father, do you feel like some of these lessons can be generational? In other words, we look at the work of many lives, many masters, and past life regression. Do you feel, Amber, that possibly there's the potential of you actually becoming the solution to a generational problem?

Sure, that feels like a. That feels like a, you know, a mighty task. But I can say for myself, I feel like I solved the generational challenge. And I've had full body goosebumps as I've been talking to you for whatever reason. So I actually completed my seven city book tour in Nashville on the 20th year anniversary of my father's death, which is where the accident happened. And that was not planned. That was like my publisher set up all the dates. And so when it occurred to me that I was going to be there 20 years later, like, living out my dream, but finally from a place of wholeness and embracing all of who I am, that was like I realized the full circle moment. And again, I have, like full body goosebumps. So I feel like I healed that for both of us.

And I think that you have, and I think this is why people are resonating across the nation. This is an international book, or this.

Is just here in the usa, us, Australia, New Zealand. It's coming out in Spanish in Latin America in October. And then we just sold Russian and China rights and a bunch of others.

Okay, so now you're rippling this message across the world, and I'm with you. I think there is certain powers, higher intelligence, God, whatever you believe in, there's something directing us and allowing us to unfold these lessons. And when I think about. You wrote in your book, Amber, you said, like, on the first date, your mom was going to fall into mud, and your dad actually caught her. And he had that presence. He had that comforting kind of security presence. What do you think you learned the most from him, even though it was such a short time that you actually were able to learn?

Yeah, I learned both. I feel like my biggest learnings came through the absence of him and the pain that that created and the curiosity that that cultivated. And I wanted to know who he was and, you know, where he came from and why he did the things that he did. And so that really inspired my curiosity around the human condition. And then, you know, I'm reminded of just, like, thinking of who he was adventuring, taking these risks, going after his dream and really pursuing it. And while, you know, for me, it was writing his. And so I just think my mom says all the time, like, oh, you're so much like your father sometimes in ways of like, you know, she was afraid for me to go out and adventure, thinking, what if the same thing happened to her that happened to him? She didn't want to lose me. So I think that that sense of adventure. And there was this moment. I talk about this in the book as well, this moment in my early 20s when I found a letter he had written to me when I was a baby that I didn't know existed. And in the letter, he said to me to live out the truth of who I am, regardless of who other people want me to be. And I just like, that was everything to me because it was particularly in a moment where I was. This was after the breakdown moment after the, like, realizing, whoa, I'm addicted to Adderall right now, and I'm. What is my life becoming? I realized that I was living and trying to please and get the approval from everyone else, but not living in alignment to my own truth. And those words were, I feel like the guiding light for me over the decade that followed.

Oh, I want to go back to how this book almost didn't even come out then. So we understand from you that these things have happened for you. And I think that's a mindset that we've talked about on the show where, whether it's through books like yours or emotional intelligence trainings or anything that allows us to reframe, which is something you do so powerfully with your wonderventions. Why did this book almost not get written?

I had so many stories inside my head, so many worry voices telling me, are you good enough? Are you ready? Does your story matter? You know, can you really share the vulnerable parts of your journey? Are people gonna judge you? Because I really, like, I had. No one knew. I remember when I was telling friends, I was like, oh, yeah, at one point, by the way, I was addicted to Adderall. And I talk about the book, and they were like, what? You were what? And so there was. There's a lot that I share in here that I've never really shared publicly. And so I knew that if I was gonna write a book, I was gonna really go there. And so that was frightening. And I think that noise, that worry, was really winning for a while, until I realized that I'm not going to get rid of the worry or the fear. The path is not to one day wake up fearless or one day wake up with all the confidence in the world to do this, but rather, I'm going to take my worries and my fears and my doubts and my vulnerabilities and my insecurities with me, and they're welcome here, too. But I'm going to let really wonder and curiosity and vulnerability drive.

My fist is in the air right now listening to you, because I know inside our mind and you talk about this, there's this little critic committee. You call it the saboteur, the sensor. There is a good kind of worry, though, because for so many millennia, we've survived because of our amygdala and our prefrontal cortex and the neuroscience of, like, you know, true fear. It actually allows us to survive. But, Amber, you have distilled this complex wisdom into these two buckets. And one of them is toxic worry. The other one is a useful worry. Tell us about this. How did you find this concept?

I don't know how I found it. I think it just, like, emerged through me somehow, or I realized that, yeah, there's a difference between. Because not all worry is bad. And there was a lot of looking into the neuroscience, like you said, the amygdala in our brain, which worry and fear are really here to protect us and keep us safe from danger. And so Worry is useful when it prevents us from danger, when we can take productive action on it, and when it's within our control. So, like, I know that if I have a really important deadline next week and I haven't prepared at all, I'm going to feel anxious and worried because worry is telling me, hey, this is important. Let's pay attention. Or if I'm like, standing too close to the edge of a mountain, worry is going to say, back up, you could get hurt. And that's useful worry because again, I can take action on it, I can use it, and I can keep myself safe and protected. But where worry becomes toxic is when it's those ruminating, obsessing thoughts that around the things we can't control that repeat over and over and over again and really paralyze and prevent us from making the sort of strides we want to make.

There's some questions we can ask that you've given in the book. And I love the way, again, emotional intelligence, especially this concept of shifting from being worried to being in wonder. This is not something we learn overnight. So I want to use that as a caveat. But one way that you've done this for people is that we can ask ourselves a few questions. Once we start feeling this worriness, you write, you know, is this a real possibility? Is there any productive action I can take? What are the ways that we can actually shift out of this? Can we go contextual here? When we're experiencing that energetic kind of tension of worry?

Yeah. So when we're experiencing that energetic tension of worry, we can first pause and just notice that we're there. Because the first, you know, the first step is really to notice and become aware of the thoughts. And once we're there, we can ask ourselves, like, is this a real possibility? Is it possible that, I don't know, whatever you're worried about, this person is really upset with me and angry and dah, dah, dah, dah, or whatever it is that you're repeating. Is this a real possibility? And maybe it is. And then if it is a real possibility, you can ask yourself, is there any productive action I can take on this? And then that can lead you in a direction of actually using the worry to move forward in the right direction. And one of my favorite tools for worry is what I call name it to tame it. And this is to name as vividly as possible what the thoughts you're having in your head are as well as the sensations in your body. Because worry is either living in the past or living in the future. And you lose sight of you in this moment right now. And so when you can say, okay, right now I have some thoughts going through my head, like, I'm so anxious about this and I don't know how this is going to turn out, and I don't know how people are going to respond to this. When you can name it, then you come back to the present moment, you become aware of your thoughts, and that's causing tension in my shoulders and my palms to be sweaty and my heart is racing. And again, you're coming back to the here and now, and you're becoming present to how you're responding. And I think that's the big thing here, is that we're always in control of our response.

And that's the only thing that we really have, too. And I think about the way that there was someone who wrote about this, too, Amber. I think it was a gentleman that was involved in the Holocaust. It's the time between stimulus and response. And I'm blanking on the name right now.

He wrote, oh, man, I'm blanking too.

Right. Okay, somebody who's listening, let us know in the show notes and on social. But please continue.

Man's search for meaning. Man's search for Meaning.

Yes, Man's search for Meaning. Viktor Frankl. Perfect.

But, yeah, all we have is our response. And so when we can slow down enough to see how we're already reacting and slow down that space, then we can say, wait, how do I want to respond here? Is this something I can control? If it's not what I can control, how do I want to respond? And just slowing down enough to notice that and have that space, we can choose a wiser response.

I want to ask a curious question. This is a theme that repeats in your book, these feelings that we have. And we'll talk about a concept you have which is actually giving ourselves permission to feel them. But where do you think, Amber, these feelings even come from? Or is that something we don't even need to know as to why the feelings even exist in the first place?

You know, it's funny, the study of emotions. I remember I was like, Googling and also talking with neuroscientists and different psychotherapists. People are like, we don't fully know where emotions come from. We know that, like, our brain is involved for sure. But, like, we don't always. We don't have. There's not enough research around the emotions, which I find so interesting. And I think it's even more curious because I Think there, of course, is the science of it, and I love the also mystery of it as well. And actually there was. This reminds me, there is a Greek religion called Hellenism, and they believed many, many, many years ago that emotions were visitors. So emotion would come to visit you. Maybe anxiety was visiting right now. And then your job was to feel it and let it go. And so it's like, oh, anger is hanging out today. So I'm just gonna feel anger, understand why anger's here, understand why or how it wants to be expressed, and then I'm gonna release it and let it go. Or anxiety is visiting me right now. It's just here for a little while. Maybe it has a message for me. Let me get curious about this message, and then I'm gonna let it go. And I love that notion. And really a big core thesis of my work is that our feelings are our friends. Because I know for me that for a really long time I repressed and pushed away my emotions, particularly the negative ones, because I thought that in order to be worthy and loved, I needed to be a positive, happy girl or positive, happy woman all the time. Everything is great. Everything is perfect. I'm good. I'm always good. I'm amazing even when I wasn't amazing. And I think there's so much danger in simply replacing a negative thought with a positive one if we don't create the space to first listen to why that thought or feeling is visiting us. Because there can be so much wisdom there.

Let that land for everyone. It's like Amber's talking about taking the space to actually feel that. I believe Amber is probably one of the most scary things for men and women both is allowing that space to exist where they can even process the feelings in the first place. You talked about, rather than trying to kill off our feelings, we can actually imagine inviting them in. How do we invite them in?

Inviting them in for tea. This actually comes from a Rumi poem, and we invite them in first. The reason I find is that why people are so often afraid to create that space to feel is because they think that the feeling is going to overcome them, never go away and stay forever. And so I feel like just even first becoming aware that again, this is a visitor. It's here, it's temporary, and it's okay. And I am human, and I feel things just like everyone else. So you're not alone. You're not the only person feeling the way that you're feeling. And it's not going to stay forever. Those two sort of thoughts Also, I think are always think are a helpful frame when entering the space to feel. And really, for me, this is where curiosity can be so powerful or wonder can be so powerful, which is, you know, let's say that I'm really angered and outraged by something. I can sit down. And for me, my preferred format is pulling out pen and paper or journal and I'll literally write at the top. Like, hey, anger, I see you. I see you're here right now. What is it that you want me to know? And often anger has a really important insight or message for me. Either anger is pointing me towards some sort of outrage, which is actually passion and something that, like, means a lot to me, or anger is like, hey, hey, I'm really pissed off about this. Someone keeps or like this situation keeps showing up in your life and you're not setting a boundary. You're not saying no, you're not honoring yourself. And I'm angry because I want you to honor yourself more.

How many people do you think are so scared of feeling anger in the first place that it leaks out into food or drugs or overworking or some kind of spiritual bypass even? We see this in the yoga and spiritual communities. Why are people not in touch with the anger? Where do you think that comes from?

Well, we learn. We're socialized to learn, like, don't be angry. You know, be like, stay calm, you know, don't get upset. I think that's just like a part of our culture where anger isn't really embraced or allowed to have a seat at the table. And again, all of these emotions are really useful when we understand and learn to interpret their messages. So giving yourself, like, for me, for a really long time, I was not a person that was angry. I was like, I don't get angry. I'm a good girl. I do things in a very calm, respectful manner. And I was tone policing myself a lot when really there was actually a lot in that anger. And yeah, when we repress that anger, it can show up in so many toxic ways, whether that's like eating our anger or using our partner as a punching bag because we haven't understand the message beneath the anger. And, you know, really saying that all of our emotions are welcome is really incredible permission and space we can create for ourselves.

I was visualizing this Tone Police with his little badge, like shaking a wand at us. Tell us about the Tone Police.

Oh, yeah. And I am so guilty of this. In my relationship, this has been such a growth edge for me where I realized that because I was afraid Also of anger. As a kid, there was definitely some challenging times where I experienced anger in different ways, and it had me shut down. And so when my fiance would get really upset and would be using really pronounced or expressing his anger verbally and visually, not at me, but just in his emotions and expressions, I would freak out and shut down and be like, I can't have this conversation with you until you're calm. Which isn't actually like, then I'm tone policing him. I'm telling him he can't feel the fullness of his emotion.

Watch out for the tone police then, because this is somebody that does not have jurisdiction over our soul.

Totally.

This tone police here as well. You actually experienced this recently. And this is an interesting story where just a few hours ago you posted this on Instagram. You recently noticed a thought you were experiencing, and the thought was, they're not respecting me. They're asking too much of me. And this is so powerful. I love the way that you reframed this. You said, when we frame a situation through the lens of responsibility, we reclaim our power and pave a path of integrity and action. That right there, that switch from this is happening to me to what can I learn from this? More of like Carol Dweck, you know, understanding the fixed mindset versus the growth mindset. How do we see the lens? How do we do that? Lens swap out amber of responsibility versus victimhood.

Yeah, well, victimhood always starts with they're doing this or they're not doing this. It's always like, they. It's pointing the finger. But as soon as we can swap that for an I statement, that's when we reclaim our power. So instead of they're not respecting me, it can be, wait, I'm not setting clear boundaries or, you know, they aren't going to let me do this. It's more, wait, I'm not letting my myself do this. And why? So just noticing when we're moving into blame victim, it's happening to me and pausing to say a, how am I responding for this? How am I contributing to this? And how can I take ownership here?

This wondervention process you have in the book, I feel like what you just told us is one of these wonderventions. It's this process of, honestly, like a spiritual and emotional inventory. Do you remember when this wondervention became clear for you, where you'd actually be able to take people through somewhat of an inventory process?

Yeah. It first started with, I feel like I was always the guinea pig. So it started with me and Then starting with me led to me blogging about all of my realizations and learnings back when Tumblr was a thing. And then all of a sudden, people were like, hey, you're making these leaps and strides and having all these aha moments. Can you help me? And I remember I was like 25 years old thinking, how can I? I'm 25. How can I possibly help you? But sure, let's do an experiment. And then it just, it was like I would test a concept on myself. I would have this aha moment, release a sense of freedom. And then I'd say, okay, let's try it on you. And then it started into small groups, and then it became talks and all these things. So, yeah, that's really how it culminates.

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Not listening to the wonder often because I find that we don't know how or we've been so conditioned or trained to listen to the worry, to trust the worry, to think the worry is true and right, and we're not pausing to question our own stories. And you know, how we get back into that space of wonder really is through I talk about the three Cs. Curiosity, courage, and compassion. And so first step is really curiosity around. And you know, because so often people are walking around with like Aunt Bob talking in their head and like the teacher in third grade yelling that they can never be an artist and you know, maybe that mentor who is really well intentioned and these other people's voices and beliefs become our own and we take them on and that's how we really become wired for worry. And if when we can pause and say, wait, you know, where did I learn this? Where do I come from? And is actually this belief serving me me, that's when we can begin. That curiosity is when we begin to rewire toward wonder.

Malcolm Gladwell has this quote about courage that it's not something that we start out the journey with. We actually develop it when we look back and say, oh, I chose to take that step and that's where the courage came from. It was in this choice, this inflection point. And I love how you frame this too. It's the sidekicks, right? To wonder. Courage, curiosity, compassion. Has there been a moment in your life where you realized, oh my gosh, that was one of the most courageous things I've ever done and this is what I've learned because of it.

Oh, yes, there's been many. I love that Malcolm Gladwell frame as well, because often it's not. Courage isn't without fear. Courage is with fear. Courage is, I don't want to go there. That's terrifying. But I'm gonna go there anyway. And that can be a hard conversation where there's a lot of conflict with someone that you love and it's so scary to turn toward it and to face it. Courage shows up there or, or in small ways. And then I think about when I was in my early 20s and I had that breakdown moment in tech and realized, this isn't My life. This is someone else's life. And I decided to quit my job, sell all my belongings, and move to New York in 48 hours. I don't know what I was thinking. I actually didn't tell anyone what I was doing until I did it, because I was so afraid people would tell me it was a horrible idea. But I look back now, and that was the greatest inflection point of my life, where everything really began to shift from there. I look back now, and I was like, what was I thinking? Thinking, like, whoa. That took a lot of, like, guts to do that.

Yeah. Understanding this choice. Amber, what made you choose, though? Because looking back now, you can see it probably more clearly. Like, in the moment, you were like, what am I doing? Or did you know what you were doing?

You know, it was. There were. There were a few things going on. One, it was the pain of where I was at was so strong that I thought anything would be better than where I was at. And then two, like. So there was, like, that pain part of me. But then two, there was this, like, pure childlike curiosity and awe and this, like, sense of intuition that just kept saying, go to New York. Go to New York. It was this whisper inside of me for nine months, and I didn't know why I should go to New York. I had actually never been to New York. But at the same time, it was that knowing. It was that, you know, Joseph Campbell call to adventure. This is the direction. You know, maybe New York isn't the answer forever, but there's something there. There's a part of yourself to discover there. And go. And so it was both, like, pain of, I don't want to do this anymore. And then just, like, childlike curiosity of what was possible.

I love the way that you've written from this place of overcoming the fearful mind and started, you say, making art as well as a vehicle to see and to be seen. How has art played a role in your life? Tell us a little bit about your passion with art.

Yeah, you know, I had no idea that I was an artist. And it just happened slowly and again through. I'm a big fan of listening to these whispers and looking for clues. And I was running to a meeting, of course, in Manhattan style one day, thinking I was late. And I passed this gallery that I knew I had to go inside of. And I was like, worry voice. You don't have time. Go, go, go. And wonder was, like, just pop in. And so I listened to that voice of wonder. And when I looked at the walls, there was Mixed media art lining the walls. And there was this overwhelming sense of curiosity erupting through me. And that's when the voice of wonder said, it's time to make some art. And of course, that was very quickly followed by the voice of worry, which said, art. Who are you to make art? You didn't go to art school. And I realized that I had that choice point again. I could either buy into thinking that an artist needed to go to art school in order to be a real artist, or I could choose Wonder and just make some art and with actual judgment of what it was supposed to be. And so I ended up turning toward the person who worked there and saying, hey, do you put on any art workshops ever? And he's like, I've been thinking about that. And I was like, great, I can get 12 women here next week. And he's like, done. And that's how it really started. And I don't think it was, like, ever getting rid of the fear. The fear and the worry were always president. My perfectionist popping and this isn't good. My editor being very loud and just remembering that this I always like the artist. Space is the non judgmental free play here. No right or wrong. Get messy space. And I really feel like that unlocked me. Embracing the mess a lot more. Art, like, allowed me to be, like, see and embrace and accept my flaws in a way that I never knew how to before.

And now you've created this. The world we want is this interactive public art. This is cities across the globe. Like, this is a movement that's growing. And I love this question, Amber world, do you want to live in? Let that land for a moment. Everyone, like, what is the world you want to live in? This is the global movement. How do you see this growing?

Well, what's been so great about it is that it's been super grassroots. So at first I thought, oh, I need to. And how it even happened, after literally doing that workshop with that artist, I had this. I started talking to all these strangers in New York about their fears, their anxieties, what they were grateful for, and the world they wanted to live in in. And I ended up having so many meaningful conversations that it occurred to me that, why aren't we having more of these meaningful conversations in public spaces? And then I was walking around my neighborhood in Dumbo and saw that an art festival was happening in three weeks. And I was like, I must be a part of this. And so I ended up emailing the woman in charge. Almost didn't email her, because applications had closed three months prior. And my worry voice was like, this is really rude and offensive for you to think that they're going to give you space. But ended up putting together this pitch and she loved the idea. And so it went live. First in Dumbo. It's this like 60 foot long chalkboard wall that both what is the world you want to live in? And then the second question and how will you create that world? Because I think that personal responsibility piece is so important. And then after that went live. So many people from around the world, whether it was like Israel and Palestine or Perch, Australia or Appleton, Wisconsin or all these random places, wanted me to bring it to their community. And I had the insight that I don't know the people of Appleton, Wisconsin like the woman from Appleton, Wisconsin does. I don't know the people of Palestine like the man in Palestine does. So what if I was able to create the playbook for them to become the artists too and to become the catalyst for their community. And so we really took that grassroots approach and enabled anyone in their community who could find a space and build the wall. It's really easy to build to create it. And you know, it's been remarkable because so Chicago went live like a month after the Dumbo one. And those two women are now full time artists who were like in completely different fields before, but it was like the permission slip and like project that catapulted them to really step into art.

Oh, it's like the permission slip, the golden ticket. Willy Wonka's Live and Inside of Us. And I think the way that this art is unfolding for me, you it's the exact opposite of the suffering. Because one of the things I loved in your book, it's page 170 for everyone that's going to get the book. By the way, if you're already inspired by what Amber is talking about, go to wellnessforce.com radio. We're going to have two books that we're going to give you. All you have to do is just leave a review on Amazon for choose wonder over worry. But Amber, page 170, you said more often than not, I noticed that we're afraid to lose our suffering because we're afraid to lose excuses. It's easier to hold on to pain as a reason for why we're concealing our gifts. Plain, small and not going after the kind of life we want to be living. It's really this ticket to let go of the suffering. Can you contrast how we're actually using the ego to hide behind the Suffering?

Oh, totally. I mean, you know, anyone sitting around playing small, coming up with all the reasons for why they can't go after the thing that they're doing is they're choosing suffering because it's scary and it's easier to make excuses and to suffer than it is to have the courage to go out there and express your gifts. And you know, watching my, you know, my dad let his art take him to the grave because of his own suffering, I really vowed to let play and joy and curiosity be at the center of what inspired me to create. And you know, it's again, it's always a challenge. And for me, it's all around saying the container for me as an artist is this. This is a non judgmental space to get messy, to play, to see what wants to emerge. No good or bad, no right or wrong, let's just see what's possible. And when I set that intention with myself, it just completely shifts. Like my editor stays quiet and it completely shifts what I'm able to create and step into.

I want to ask a really challenging question for you. Want to play kind of devil's advocate? We see leaders in our world, you know, like Gary Vaynerchuk and you know, hustle, baby, grind, get after it. Because, you know, unless you put in the work and bleed at your eyeballs, you're not going to succeed. And then we also know, based on the work of Gay Hendricks and everyone else that's really got a voice we can trust in the spiritual and personal development world, that we don't actually have to suffer the entire time. We can enjoy the process, trust the process. Something you told me before we even recorded. How have you tactically allowed your nervous system, your heart, your spirit, to trust the process and not be in this suffering mode?

Well, I think it first came with the realization that there's enough suffering in the world and suffering is inevitable in creating anything. But it's like not choosing more suffering. Like, I totally get Gary Vee's go after it, Hustle, make it happen. And I think there is benefit to that hyper masculine go, go, go, get it done, make it happen way of being for me that just never had me thrive or feel the way that I wanted to feel. And so like, very tactically, how the shift that happened for me is that I was always focusing before on the results I wanted to create versus how I wanted to feel in the process of creating those results. And when I focused on feelings, like, I want to feel expansive, aligned, connective, like a vessel for expression, I want to feel free. When I focused on the feelings, I then oriented the way I invested my time around those feelings. So, like in this book journey over the last year and a half, which, you know, there are many points of, like, fear and worry and concern, and even in suffering, I could pause and say, wait, how do I want to feel right now? And what can I do to feel that way?

It's this perfectly imperfect practice. Amber, I remember texting you. We had to reschedule three times to record today. Which is why it's so beautiful, actually, because you were experiencing the exact lessons that you write to everyone else about when you're on the book tour, when you're traveling. Like, these old kind of messages probably pop up from time to time. Is it just that we commit to how we actually want to feel? I love this. In the process of creating, instead of the end result, is that kind of the recipe for self love for everything else that we truly want to feel?

Yeah. For me, feelings are the way forward because we can't control the outcomes, but we can control how we show up every day and how we do the things that have us feel the way we want to feel. Because success is ultimately, you know, a desired feeling. And if we realize that, you know, the reason we want to be successful is because we want to feel a certain way, we can just get clear on how we actually want to feel and what will make us feel that way.

You're bringing a message to mind for all of us around the essence of the feeling. I remember we had Ryan Yacomi on the show talking about money. You know, money, Amber, I believe, is one of the biggest stressors for most people that is handed down from generation to generation that floods our prefrontal cortex with blood and allows us to not even step into our wonder at all. Has money played a role in your life? And for people that are listening, how do they shift out of that tension and worry around money? That's a big question. I don't even probably do an entire podcast on that question.

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because when I took that leap from San Francisco to New York, I had $1,000 in my bank account, and I didn't have many people I could turn toward and borrow money from. But for me, what? Amit Gupta, he was the one who was that last spark of inspiration for me to really follow and go to New York. He said, you having $1,000 in your bank account makes a better story. And there was something about that that created this opening for me of like, wait this is just all a story and this is all an experiment. And let me see what works, let me see what doesn't work, and let me just trust that I can figure it out. I love what Marie Forleo says, that everything is figured.

Yes.

And there were moments when I was in New York and had negative $3.24. I think the important distinction was that the money in my bank account was not a reflection of my self worth. It was just a reflection of the value I was able to create and have a amount reflected by in my bank account. And so I understand that money is a huge stressor for people and it helps me to remember that everything is negotiable. Whether that's like, how much you're getting paid or if you owe money or have debt. You know, I've been able to call and talk things down and just realizing that money is energy and the energy that we are putting out there becomes this, this flow.

And in this flow too, I think what holds a lot of people back is they'll see money. That's tension, that's fear. I mean, I even did a talk about this too, where I was like, yeah, people with money can't be trusted, trusted. Which I know is something that was just programmed very early on. And I think about everyone listening right now too, Amber sharing the journey with you. If they have a belief like that, how do you slay that dragon? I mean, is there a starting point to even address this relationship with money so that we can make it more of a wonder?

Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up because it's not about the money. It's about the belief or story about money. And so money is just some life thing we made up in humankind where. And there's so much. There's like, you know, some people believe that money is greedy. Some people believe money is the path to freedom. And so I would first ask yourself, what is your story about money? Because if you can change the story, you might be able to change the relationship with the money. And I have this graph in the book where it's always like, what happened in our life and what we made it mean. And that's our myth. So I think of, you know, I had a client once who, you know, came home and her mom couldn't pay the bills and so all the electricity had turned, been turned off and she couldn't. Like there was this like story of money that she was raised in that there would never be enough. And it wasn't until that she was able to question that story and say, yes, that was my mom's reality, but that doesn't have to be my reality because I can create enough and I am abundant, and here's the story of money that I actually want to live into. So first it was like getting to the root of the story that she had bought into and believed and then realizing that in her life she could create a different narrative.

And I just, I had to take a pause there because I'm thinking about how this has played out in my own life, Amber. Because we're all connected at a quantum level. And we've gotten very woo woo on the show before, especially with Drew Canole. But today I really want to ask this question. As we kind of wind down and we get into the practical things that people can do every day, you know, just besides picking up the copy of Choose Wonder over Worry, I think about what happened to Kate Spade, and you gave a talk there in December 2016, and we know that she's no longer with us. And I think about this conversation that you say, you know, our emotions will not harm us, but staying silent about them could. This is why safe spaces for honest dialogue are so key. This must have been a very emotional moment for you when you heard about this because, you know, just a few years back, not even, not even too long, actually, you were on the stage and I love what's behind you. You said, choose 1% more wonder than worry. Can you tell us how you felt and, and how this even rings more powerful for you today when you heard about that news?

Yeah, I was absolutely devastated. And also I feel like so many really shocked and surprised. I actually read yesterday that her father, I believe, talked to her on the day that she committed suicide and she was planning a trip and telling him, like, how colorful her life was and then, you know, hours later. And so, you know, I can't pretend to know Kate or what was going on, but I can tie it to a trend I see, which is this inability to express how we're really feeling with the people close to us who can support us and hold space and guide us through whatever we're feeling and know that we're human and okay. And I actually, I went back to Kate Spade, I think it was a week or two ago, and went back to really create that container at their company to say, like, let's talk about the feelings. Feelings, let's normalize the feelings. Like, it's okay if you feel anxious sometimes. It's okay if you experience envy in comparison. It's okay if you know you're feeling angry about something, let's just hold this container and talk about it. Because again, it's that silence that can kill us and keep so many of us stuck. And so, you know, I think for people going forward, your feelings are what unite you with every other human being on this planet. It's not what separates you. And knowing that you can share, whether that's safe space is with a trusted friend or that safe space is where a therapist or whether that safe space is a women's or men's group, that you find, you know, find that space for yourself to really express the fullness of what you're feeling and where you are.

And I think about the dichotomy, you know, the opposite of depression. It's expression, it's speaking our truth, which is something you give people tools for. In the book, I want to ask you just a few definitions as we wrap the show today. God, I've loved connecting with you so much because this really wondering about what's possible in life. It's just so much more juicy than the worry. And this isn't the golden ticket, but you've definitely given people some things where they can start on the golden path. Five definitions here, and you don't have to go too deep unless you feel called go for it. The first one is compassion. How would you define compassion?

Compassion is remembering that we're all doing the best that we can. And compassion is saying to yourself, I'm human, I'm loved, I'm worthy, I'm enough. Regardless of what happens.

Do you feel that compassion is most powerful and really helps the most people in the place of someone being hurt?

Absolutely. I feel like if someone's hurting when we can have compassion for them, when we can really meet them where they are without trying to change them and have empathy for what they're going through, then that makes all the difference. People just want to feel seen.

Which leads to the next question. This self love definition, it's pretty prevalent in our industries. Amber, self love, self care, what is your take? How would you define self love?

Self love is loving every part of me, even the trickier, messier parts that I sometimes don't want to love. And allowing that to have a seat at the table of my heart.

I don't know if you've said that exact phrase before, but that gave me chills. Like, have you said that exact sentence before? It's so good.

Thank you.

Physical intelligence is the intersection of emotional intelligence, which really unlocks our connection to spirit. This is this is what we talk about on the show so much. Amber, what is a physical intelligence practice that you're leaning into right now? It could be anything from eating, moving, sleeping, meditation. How are you taking care of your physical intelligence right now?

I'd say the biggest go to for me is journaling and just I wake up and I have this practice center. Wake up and grabbing my phone, I wake up and grab my journal. And I just like you said, I love what you said. The opposite of depression is expression. And the journal is for me to express all the things that need to be said, all the things that are in my space, all the things that I'm thinking about and dreaming about and wondering about, as well as worrying about and allow everything to have space to be expressed.

I love that you took an emotional intelligence practice and you made it physical because the pen to paper, it's such a big deal. You know, typing is not the same, right?

Well, we literally tap into a different part of our brain when we use pen and paper. We're able to access more, go deeper. Neuroscience has shown this. And so, you know, sitting in front of the computer, the screen, there's a different energy. And so I so encourage the practice of pen and paper because I feel like it'll really guide you deeper and deeper into who you.

The emotional intelligence, which, gosh, I mean, really, this is your specialty with wonder over worry. Is there a practice for emotional health that you're currently in? Is there an edge you're leaning into around your thoughts, your feelings or your actions?

So my favorite one that's a little unorthodox is to name and create characters out of my emotions. And so like my inner perfectionist. Her name is Grace and she's a 30 something British woman who hails from London and she wants everything in a very neat and perfect tidy house.

Hello, Grace.

Hello, Grace. Grace is now on the show. No, but by having Grace knowing that she has short blonde hair, she lives in London and she's this perfectionist. When she shows up, I can say, hey, Grace, like, I see you hanging out around here while I'm writing this article criticizing every other sentence, like, what's up? Why are you here? And there's so much like when we can create space and distance from noise inside of our head to actually a character that we can have a dialogue with, then we can actually move through the conflict rather than just pushing it away. So I love the concept of nonviolent communication because nonviolent communication shows us these different techniques to calm conflict with other people. But this is a way to have nonviolent communication with ourselves, to create. So I have Anxious Annie that shows up around certain things. I have Mama Jenny who's actually a big cheerleader. And because I've characterized different emotions and can dialogue with them, I'm able to resolve things and move things through things and create boundaries with them. So, like, sometimes with Grace, I'd be like, hey, listen, I know you want to create a really high quality piece of work, but I need you to go get a massage for 30 minutes and maybe I'll invite you into the.

Editing process and you actually physically have a dialogue with this person. With Grace.

Oh, yeah.

Amber, I've so enjoyed this. You know the last question that is the signature question. It's what you've been through these thresholds of growth and reframing and using language and all the things we've explored on today's show. How do you see wellness? What is your definition of wellness?

My definition of wellness is. My definition of wellness is embracing all of who you are and allowing all of you to be present.

I gave that some space because that was so succinct and so true. AmberRay.com is where people can go to learn more about you. Obviously, we're going to link the book in the show notes. Choose wonder over worry. Move beyond fear and doubt to unlock your full potential. I just want to pause for a breath and a moment to acknowledge the voice of truth, of this discovery of our own unique truth that you really are across the wellness and personal development worlds. Thank you so much for what you do, the path you've chosen to walk. I know it has not been easy, but God, you are just shining and giving us really a reason to do the same.

Mmm. Thank you. I've so enjoyed this.

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