240 Matt Vincent: Being Strong For A Modern World

How many people I've known that want to start a podcast or people that want to edit YouTube videos or do this thing and they put three or four months into their first video editing and recutting it. It's not perfect and it's not perfect. And all I want to say is it's like you'll never be as good at this video, no matter how long you take, as you are at video 100. So get to video 100, but you got to give a shit the whole way there.

That's Matt Vincent and this is Episode 240 of Wellness Force Radio. What's up, my friend? It's your host, Josh Trent. And welcome back to another episode for your weekly access to global experts in all things wellness as we discover the physical and emotional intelligence we need to live life well. In this episode, we're talking about being strong in a modern world with my new friend, Matt Vincent. This guy is a full fledged strength athlete, but he's also a philosopher. We went into depth in this conversation. I really love these in person podcasts. I know you can feel the energy, the difference between Skype and in person. Although I love Skype and there's the video connection. There's something special about sitting in proximity just a couple feet from someone else. That was the case with Matt Vincent, a strength athlete, two times Highland Games champion, and founder of Hate Brand Goods. Now you're probably thinking what I'm thinking. Hate. What is that all about? I asked him about this on the show this term that many will find negative. It's actually the brand lifestyle that he based his entire ethos for his company on. A very simple philosophy, turn negativity into positive results. The reality is that everyone, myself included, has doubts. Everyone has worries about how much they can accomplish. But Matt believes that we're not allowed to hide from those thoughts. You if we want a rich and fulfilling life by harnessing and reframing that negativity, we actually can have those thoughts drive us. I challenged Matt at a few points during the interview and he also challenged me. You know this Hate Brand Goods hvii I actually did not even hear about this Brand Goods before I showed up at Lake Tahoe to record for the Mind Pump event. Huge shout out to the Mind Pump media guys. Adam, Sal, Justin, Doug, letting me record in this beautiful mansion overlooking the golf course at the Spartan world. In this conversation, we're not only talking about how he grew this Hate Brand Goods to be world class. We're also talking about the renewal of reconnecting with others, the tribe, that's what crossfit, that's what paleo, that's what vegetarianism, all these groups, it's because they're tapping into this need, this requirement for us to lead a full life that includes being part of a tribe. We'll talk about what he learned from the process he went through after losing his father from pancreatic cancer, what the term hate actually means to him, why he finds this so motivating, how he stays authentic on social media. We also talk about the balancing aspect and why pain and trauma are not a competition. Everyone you know is dealing with our own issues at our own full capacity. You can find more about matt@wellnessforce.com 2:40 I was blown away with Matt's presence, his ability to articulate thought and I think you're going to connect with him just like I did. And in this tribe mentality, this special understanding that we are all here to grow together. You can be a part of the Wellness Warrior VIP club. All you have to do is go to wellnessforce.com VIP we're giving away special invite only. Access to events coming up, unique product discounts, all kinds of special stuff. You can only get this if you're part of the Wellness Warrior VIP Club. Go to wellnessforce.com VIP now let's dig in live and in person with the one and only Matt Vincent. This is a strength athlete, a two time highland games world champ and he's the founder of hate brand goods. But it's hvii but he travels a lot. He's lucky to spend time with exceptional people who chase strength and fulfillment and personal growth in every imaginable way. But Matt, you also wrote a book called training lab.

Yeah.

You spell out the philosophy of hate and really this. I love this man. The spirit of self improvement through self loathing. What do you mean by that?

So the easiest way I'm able to describe it is like, you know, growing up, my brother and I had always talked about like different athletes and things that we were always influenced by. And one of those was like watching like a Jerry Rice character, you know, someone like this who best in the world, as good as it can be. And you still hear stories that this guy's up at 4am and like going to run hill sprints and catching bricks and running routes and perfecting. Right. And I always looked at that and I was like, guy fucking hates himself more than I do. And that's really where it stemmed from, like, be willing to do the work, like be willing to suffer, like, because you can't outsource it.

Yeah.

You know, if you want to get stronger or you want to get better, like, it isn't going to be fun.

I feel like in our society right now we're seeing like, we're here at the Spartan race, you know, the world championships. There's so many people that want to do a mud race, a marathon, a Spartan race. We're seeing like this return to the pain body so we can express it through our physical self. This fascination that you have, though you're a strongman, is there something about your heritage that even got you into strongman?

Not really. I guess genetically it worked out a little bit better between my brother and I. We're both bigger guys and I'm the small of the two of us. And so after football and track and field, for me through college, I got into some strongman and powerlifting and did some things like that. Played to my strengths a little bit.

But what even got you into that when you were then?

Well, I've always, you know, When I was 13, I got into lifting to be better at football. So all of my lifting from jump has been performance based, which is very weird now that I'm banged up and a little injured and trying to figure out some health and aesthetics because I have no idea how to train for it. And I'm like, you just go to the gym to feel better. This is not what I've associated with the gym for the last 23 years.

Oh, different mindset.

Yeah, injuries will do that.

I'm 38 and I've had injuries recently. I tore my medial gastroc sprinting. And how do you. When you're there and you were in high school and you were training, did you ever even think that you'd be doing what you do now?

No, I didn't think I'd be doing what I'm doing now. Five years ago, like, it's such a weird thing what I'm doing, you know, that, like, I always laugh about it and try to have the perspective of, you know, to try to keep things in check of, like, I live in a world where I get to talk about training and my love for the barbell and getting stronger and essentially, you know, whether I look at that as a Spartan race stuff or this return to the pain. Right. That we live in a time that's very, very unique, that it is so soft and comfortable that we get to pick our stress and stimulus and that's not a thing that we've ever had in human evolution prior to this and so, like, I get to go to a gym because my life is very comfortable, because I have enough free time and energy to build muscles I don't need to survive. Like, I'm going to do fake work in a place because I don't have a field to tend to, I don't have a farm and I don't have an army to defend my house from or I don't have to hunt my food every day. Like, we live in a great time and that's the Spartan race deal. Like, yeah, man, Your job's a 9 to 5 and you go to a desk and this is an easier way for you to make money than, say, delivering rocks to your neighbor's house for their fences. So at least you're doing this instead of just sitting there and letting this machine fall apart.

Yeah. This machine is built for, honestly, more of the expression of emotions and everything through the physical body. That's what we're made for, this physical self. Yet I think the fascinating part that I'm seeing, and if you look at the depression rates and even if you study the work of Jordan Peterson, holy shit. Are we in an interesting time where there is this resurgence. Not just people in the strength community and the fitness community, but every day, moms and dads, people that are like maybe 18, they're graduating high school and they're just looking for a tribe. This tribe aspect, I think, is what really drives the reconnection to the physical self.

And, and that part's tricky, dude. The tribe. The tribe aspect's tricky. And I think that's. That's really what CrossFit hit on the head with. Not realizing that that's what they hit on the head is that they allowed to build these tribes in this community where people go and suffer together and shared goal in this time of sweat. And everyone knows that everyone put in the work and there is this shared bit of work that a lot of people don't have. You know, you don't have it with the guys in your cubicle. You don't have it. I, I don't know all the fucking neighbors on my street. I know two, and we're super close with them, but I don't know the rest of those people. My parents knew everyone in my neighborhood that I grew up in. And so it wasn't a big deal that all the kids were outside playing all day in the field. And I don't believe that things are more dangerous now. I just think there's this unknown and we've been taught that things are so scary that we can't protect everyone from everyone.

There's a bigger lens on us because social. It's like a huge magnifying glass. Everything. Yeah, we know. Kim Kardashian's cat's sweater color, for lack of a better term, like, we're swimming in information. And so do you think that is actually why, Matt, that you've seen? Actually, maybe. Let's talk about the strength industry specifically. Why do you think the strength industry is booming? It continues to boom.

You know, it's one of those things for me that it's. It's an even playing field whether you've got access and you've got. You know, I don't. I don't. It doesn't matter who your parents are and your genetics and what income level you have, whether you're the rock or you're me or you're the guy who's just started lifting a week ago. Like, if you want to make progress there, you've got to show up. You've got to put your hand on a barbell like that. Money doesn't buy you the ability to skip that. You can't just become strong. You can't outsource it. And if you want to get stronger and more fit and healthy, like, that's time. And it's time that you got to put in. And so there is something to a tribe there. Like when you meet other people who have become strong and spent their time with the barbell that like, yeah, man, we got a thing.

I'll never forget I was at the 20x. I don't know if you've heard of Mark Devine's 20x, the 14 Hour Crucible. It's like an overnight seal for training. You're doing logs over your head and they're spraying you with water and you're sprinting in the dark.

And again, amazing thing that this is something that we can sell now to people.

Absolutely. I paid 500 bucks.

Right. Of.

The fascinating part about it, though, is that, like, what my big takeaway and I think this relates to what we're talking about is my suffering. What I was going through was actually deterring me and distracting me away from being there for my team. And that's what they teach in seal fit is like, you know, you're going through your suffering and that's fine because you're all suffering together. So can you go outside yourself and can you connect to the suffering of your teammate? And that's what actually bonds you even stronger and allows everyone to finish. And I Feel like that's a mirror for the strength industry, you know, might not be 14 hours overnight.

Sure.

But at the same time, like, you know, your voice in strength, do you feel like your voice is in that same vein? In other words, what do you think your voice is in strength? When we look at pain and removing pain from the body, you know, I.

Think it's, I think it's that bit of. It's a choice, right. I think, I think that removing pain from the body that, you know, a stronger body tends to hold itself together better. You become more resilient, you can handle more. You, you know, that kind of thing. Like, don't ask for a lighter load, ask for a stronger back.

Who said that?

I have no clue. I like it. Marcus Aurelius seems like a good one. If we don't know, we'll just put me on it.

We'll put in the show notes.

Brilliant, brilliant talk, whoever that guy was. And you know, that stuff matters, man. I think as a species we adapt very well to stress. And like I said before that we live in a time now that we get to pick it. And so we're so comfortable, dude, especially in our country. And that's really what I mean when I'm saying we're comfortable in time and species. Like folks in America, right, our homeless are fat. That's not a thing. We don't have real starvation. Poverty in America is not the same as poverty and sub Saharan Africa, this is a different thing here. And while it's great and there's shit that needs to be fixed and people have stuff to do, but we do live in a unique time that we do get to pick. And so try to explain to my grandfather, like a World War II guy that, oh, I get up in the morning and I get into a cold tube and it sucks.

What's his response?

Well, he would just be like, what the fuck would you do that? Why is your day not hard enough? You know, like, try to explain to my, to a World War II vet why we have coloring books for 30 year olds to help them de stress. What is it you guys so stressed about? The Nazis? Are Nazis back? Are we fighting Nazis again? Like, it's a different time.

The interesting part about that too is like, you know, starting your day with something challenging, it can set up so that the rest of the day is easier. Is that why you go there? Because I think about guys that do the cold plunge or like, you know, run out into the middle of the ocean and just like shock their system. Is that actually like setting us up for a day where the whole day's easier.

You know, I just think for me, like, it gets the engine kicked over a little bit different. Otherwise I can, I can really drag out a morning routine.

Are you a slow morning getter upper?

No, I'm up at 5. You know, you typically 5am without an alarm clock. That's when I like being up. And so it's, you know that. And if I can, I'm happily to drag that out till 10am with coffee and sitting around and browse the YouTubes and see what's interesting and what, where the compass is going to land that day. But I know that if I get up and I go do 10 or 15 minutes worth of some sprint sections on the assault bike and then have coffee and then stretch and move and get in the sun and get in the cold tub and I'm done with all of that by six o'. Clock. I'm fired up and ready. Man.

You've done more in the first hour of the day than I would say 95, 97% of Americans.

We'll do all day. I also live a great life where I get to work at home and I have a cold plunge and I have an assault bike in my garage, so.

But that's your choice.

Of course, none of this happened on accident. I didn't just show up at a place and this was handed to me. These were all things I've accumulated. But it's still a choice. Like I don't. I'm playing with a set of cards that allows me to do that. Right? Like I'm not playing with a set of cards. Like, I know guys that can't do what I do for a living. And what the world needs ditch diggers too, man. Like, we need those people.

Hell yes. You know what, that is such an interesting point because. And I'd love for you to talk about in just a minute, like, what exactly it is you do if you're in an elevator. Like, what would you say to somebody? Right.

I usually just say unemployed, so I don't have a conversation. Okay.

You can just say blanket term entrepreneurs, entrepreneur or something.

I guess that's even worse.

But the, the real challenge, I think is for people to. I liked how you had the reference of stacking the deck. Like this is the way you've chosen to stack your deck. I think sometimes people get dealt cards they don't want to play. Of course, you know, abuse, trauma, things like this that happen. And it could happen for us or to us, depending on Your mindset. Have you had something specifically, any kind of event that really sparked you into creating hate? HVII.

Not the original mindset. The original mindset was something, you know, that we just kind of spoke about. My brother and I had spoke a little bit about. And then it became something I wrote about in the books as I wanted to write a training manual for the Highland Games and did so. So started the apparel brand in October of 14 was our first shirt we sold. And then I would say April of 14, my father passed away, pancreatic cancer. Great relationship with my dad. Like there's none of that weirdness other than just super sucks. My fucking dad's dead. But I definitely watched in 11 months go from being dad to withering away and dying. And so that was a big eye opener of like, universe doesn't care, man. Today fucking matters. And so what are you doing today? And so that you know the motto of the brand is spread hate, always party. And so it's, you know, spread that mentality of like, if it's something you want, you can fucking earn it and be willing to suffer for it, but at the same time, like, be prepared for whatever crosses your plate. Like don't, don't be so fucking fragile.

What does that term, hate, what does that actually mean to you?

To me, it's that self motivation of not feeling I'm entitled to, to this today, like I get to rest or like, you know, I am working very hard so this should be successful. You're not owed any of that for hard work. And the truth is, like, I think our generation was lied to a lot with the idea that success, like, if you're willing to work hard, you can do anything you want. And that's just not fucking true.

Hard work is the bare minimum, right?

But it's also just not true, you know, and we have a tendency to overlook it. And so why would you not think that the cards are stacked in your favor when you wouldn't think I was insane if I said I'm now committed at 35 years old with a shitty knee and post athletic body. Definitely not in my athletic prime. I love basketball. I'm hiring a nutrition coach. I've got a friend who's a strength conditioning coach for the Lakers. I'm going to go stay with him and be around basketball players and learn and get a shooting coach and do all these things and change my diet. I'm never playing in the NBA. There's not an amount of hard work that equals success if that's the goal. And So I think we get caught up on what success is, and I think if we could change that focus to hard work done consistently equals progress. We can always make progress. I can be a little bit better than yesterday, and that's really what the hate is.

So do you think that term practice makes perfect is actually bullshit? It's more practice makes progr.

Fucking. What is perfect? Yeah, you know what I mean?

I don't actually know if perfect exists. It's just this, like, illusion.

The pursuit of perfection always gets in the way of good enough. And sometimes good enough is okay. Sometimes, you know, I guess the easiest way. I've. How many people I've known that want to start a podcast or people that want to edit YouTube videos or do this thing, and they put three or four months into their first fucking video editing and recutting, and it's not perfect. And it's not perfect. And all I want to say is, it's like, you'll never be as good at this video, no matter how long you take, as you are at video 100. So get to video 100, but you got to give a shit the whole way there, man.

I feel like people don't want to feel the flinch, the flinch of being perceived as not having their shit together, not being perfect.

Fucking no one's what.

But this is. Matt. What?

I feel like shit together.

And this is cool because on your YouTube, you have, like, 30,000 people that watch your videos. On your channel, you have, like, hundreds of videos, which, by the way, some of them are really cool. You have a tent on top of your.

I do, yeah.

Toyota. What is that tent? I want one of those tapui makes.

The one I use. And it's a. So it's a rooftop tent. Fogs up. It's elevated, and I think bear spray or my pistol help. So I'd rather have them surrounded from an elevated position than been laying on the ground.

I looked at some of your videos eight years ago. There's just you doing strongman stuff, and you came from just shooting on, like. Remember those flip cams? That was your head.

Yeah.

So shooting on a flip cam to now having found it the other day, really beautiful. You did?

Yeah.

Did you find any old videos that were finally. So this transition between, like, you know what? I'm just going to be imperfectly perfect. I'm just going to be myself and just put out content. What do you think it is about you and your life that has allowed you to stand in your power and just be like, yo, guys, I'm not Perfect. But I care deeply about what I do.

I think it's just showing that there's an alternate route, you know. And one of the things that I've really tried to stick by and whatever that ethics or whatever you'd like to call it is, is I don't want to make content I don't give a shit about. And so I don't want to make content to chase more views. I would much rather it be that like the guy sitting in this chair and talking to you and we've never met is the same fucking guy that you've seen on any of the videos. There's not a character. I don't flip the switch and I don't like, hey man, I don't talk about, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. This is it. You got all of me. And that's sustainable because I'm not a character. This is me sharing my life. And it's a very strange, narcissistic thing to feel that your life and the things you have to say are important enough that you should share them. And people need to watch them and, or listen or read them.

I feel like I'm in the middle of that right now. A lot of creators go through like, oh my God, I have to share the deepest, most intimate parts of my life in order for people to really trust me. And I think the answer is hell yes.

Yeah, and. But that's your tribe. It's a weird spot if you're not getting back from it. And so having decent followings on a couple platforms, I'm real fortunate. And I think part of that, because I don't commit to any fuckery is I don't get trolled. I don't have that. And so I would way rather have a smaller audience that all gives a shit then chase this bigger number for whatever the fuck fame is. I don't know what that is, but I know that I have more of it now than I did two years ago. And it's weird, but cool, but weird, you know, like I'm a fucking guy that threw rocks in the field and people chose to measure it. Yeah, this isn't, this isn't fancy.

It must be a challenge too, coming from, you know, maybe. Were you raised in a small town? Was it small?

Yeah, 25,000 people. Sulphur, Louisiana.

Sulphur, Louisiana. And probably some old school values. Very conservative, very conservative. Little small minded here and there.

Yeah, sure.

I spent some time in Louisiana. The whole state's awesome.

Still very, very churchy. Very, very regular on that aspect.

Okay. So the transition, mentally that you had to go through to found a successful clothing company.

Dude, man, I was always weird, right? Like, I never fit a lot of standard. Things. Like, my group of friends in high school varied from, you know, I was all state in two sports, and so I had that group of guys I was the jock with, you know, relatively popular with those friends. But I also hung out with the stoner kids that played music, and I also liked really weird goth kids that played role playing card games.

Did you do Dungeons and Dragons?

Didn't do D and D. I got into magic the Gathering at a point. Never stuck with it, but it was fascinating and I liked it. And I like different people. You know, I remember, you know, I had a fight I got into in high school because one of the other guys I played football with started shit with one of the stoner kids you had.

You had to pick up and, like, save the nerd crowd.

Yeah. Yeah. And so it was like, hey, man, if you're looking for a fight, well, you can fight someone that can defend themselves. I'm right here. Let's have it.

That that's what filters into your brand. I'll be honest, man. I didn't know about your brand.

Sure.

And so the Mind Pump guys introduced me to your brand, and I was like, wow. The more that I looked over it this morning, I thought to myself, this is somebody that just wants to be fearlessly authentic.

Thanks.

You know, this. This. This verb that's thrown around, I think it's like, authenticity is the most overused phrase right now.

Genuine and authentic. Meanwhile. Meanwhile, what you know about me is a completely curated view that I've chose to share.

Well, I mean, I'll tell you, though, within these past 15 minutes we been talking, it seems like there's a mirror of your brand to you in person.

Yes.

And I think the reason is. Is because you came from this situation where it wasn't as if you were born with a silver spoon.

No.

You know, you've been through different hurdles.

With that said, things have been very cool. No doubt about it. The greatest door that was ever open for me was being a white guy born in 1983 to two decent parents.

Why is that?

Because that's America, and things are great that way. You know, I'm not gonna piss and moan about that, that step that I was given. But there isn't another time in history or another place in the world that would have given me a better chance at success than that.

Yeah. Were finances an issue when you were a kid? Did you guys have any financial trouble or.

No, I mean, my parents worked. We weren't, we weren't rich. My mom was a teacher. My dad was a boilermaker. We lived in the. My mom still lives in the same house.

Your dad was a boilermaker? So he actually would construct the steel?

Yeah, yeah. So was a welder and so, you know, did that his whole life and went on vacations and did stuff. But, you know, it was normal. It was, it was a relatively normal life. We lived in the same house the entire time I grew up. My mom still lives in it. You know, I had a car as soon as I turned 15.

What was your first car?

My dad traded my uncle a boat trailer for a Nissan frontier. Like little two door small Nissan truck with 188,000 miles on it.

That's a great first car. Mine was, mine was red Toyota pickup. That was my first.

Yeah, I ruined it trying to mud ride in it. We are not a four wheel drive truck or built for that success.

I think a lot of people start out from humble beginnings and maybe for you it doesn't seem too humble, but there's a lot of people that achieve success and they've had kind of the path laid out for them. I think people that follow your brand, at least my sense is people that follow your brand is they're coming from a bit of a threshold themselves.

I agree.

You know, they're coming from maybe trauma or stress or whatever it is like some part of their life. They're using the energy of your brand to associate with. What are they associating with, man, about your brand?

I think it's the. A bit of like fucking own it. Like these are shortcomings. Is this where you want to go? This is what you want to do? No one owes it to you. No one owes you success. The universe doesn't give a shit. And so if this is a thing that you want, you do it and you do it for you. And my biggest recommendation is, is quit focusing on this bit of if I just get here, all this is okay, you know, And I know a lot of guys who've done that and I'll dive into that. But you know that you make these weird sacrifices and you make these fucking deals with yourself and the people around you that like, if you just let me get here, you'll see that all this bullshit was okay. And there's no there. There isn't a point where you're there. It's all journey and it's all process. And so learn to live in that because that's where we are. And if you kid yourself that we're anything other than the journey and process, like you're fucking full of it.

What do you mean the universe doesn't give a shit? Because I feel like the universe has my back.

I find the universe to be completely indifferent, which I like. I think you can again stack the cards in your favor. Right. I think good and bad momentum add up. And so trying to make smarter decisions instead of shitty decisions over and over again allow you to have some momentum to carry when shit times come, because they do, you know? But the universe is indifferent in the way that I feel. You know, my dad gets to suffer and die of cancer and Richard Ramirez dies of old age in prison. He doesn't fucking care. Didn't owe either of those two people happiness. Doesn't owe him a place in the afterlife. It doesn't. Your, your karma didn't add up to this path, so it's yours. This is your life. This is your day. What decisions do you make? And for me, that big turning point with my old man was so he passed away at 62 and I was 31 at the time. And all I could think was like, man, are you fucking halfway? And if you are, what are you doing? And if I took 31 and multiplied that by 52 and put 1600 or so marbles in a jar, and at the end of every week I picked one up to throw it in the fucking garbage can and asked, did we spend that one? It's worth it.

Death can be the ultimate reminder that we get to be grateful for the now.

Because it's coming.

You're right, dude. We're all going there.

Yeah. I don't have any guarantee that I make it back to the place I'm staying in Truckee today.

And this might sound morbid.

There's a high success. Yeah. And I can up my chance of success by that. By like not hanging out here and getting shit faced all day and driving back.

Right.

You know, I can also up my chance success by not staring at my telephone the entire time I'm driving back. Yeah. So stack the cards in your favor of success.

This is what I like about you, man. This is what I was stoked to talk with you about because I feel like, you know, you have one foot in athletics and kind of being a meathead. Would you consider yourself being a meathead? The other half of you that I see, though is philosophy.

Yeah. That's a really weird thing to say about a self meathead philosopher. But there's no doubt about it that, like, I mean, the. The book I'm currently working on, like, I journaled through the last, like, two knee surgeries that I didn't know I was gonna have and the recovery for it. And you can see when there's a switch that flips of like, oh, I'm never gonna compete again, and then swallowing that. Right. And so there is some philosophy that you've got to make some grounds up with and how. How you. You decide to. To go through it.

Who have you pulled on for strength and philosophy? Do you have any philosophers that you follow? Like, for me, Alan Watts led me for six years. You know, Carl Jung. But do you have anyone that you really go to as far as, like, studying that emotional slash side of your brain, you know, the philosophy?

Not really. I really like just digging into a problem and then running the numbers on as many different scenarios is how I see this play out in different ways and then trying to find this makes more sense. You know, I've got some really great friends that I lean on who I think are pretty smart, and so that. That really helps. So I lean. I lean more on that. I've always been more for that than I am reading philosophy. My media consumption is either podcast or movies, and so I don't read a ton. I should probably do more audiobooks. Just there's some part of me that feels like I should, but at the same time, I'm like, I don't want to do it.

Well, you create a lot, and this is what I found with creators, is that you're creating so much that you don't consume very much. So if you really had to dial it down to what you consume, like, what do you consume that actually fuels that philosopher side of you?

I think it's podcast. I think it's probably podcast for me. And there's been a lot of alone time. And I think that's part of it is you really can't do a lot of work with the self unless you're okay with being alone. And I had a job where I drove a lot, doing outside sales for a bunch of years, and so spent 75,000 miles a year in my truck by myself.

What were you selling?

I worked in the petrochemical field, so oil and gas in the south, and so I sold a refractory service. So I've sold that nuts and bolts, a handful of other shit.

But I was account executive for a endurance sports technology company before I founded Wellness Force, and then before that, 10 years in fitness. And I think about whatever you learned in sales obviously made you found hate. It's the same thing, right? The same skill set. Right. But now you're doing it from a place of, hey, this is what I actually like to do. But I learned all these skills maybe having conversations with old men with white hair and suits in Texas and talking.

About shit I don't want to talk about. Yeah, yeah, that job's different, man. I remember. I'm not a. I'm not a tongue biter. You know, someone who's gonna sit and let be talked about and then not chime in and be like, oh, you guys are really wrong. But at the same time, like, know your audience, you know, and if maybe this isn't the one where you need to have a fight because you're not changing their mind. Like, this is so far the other direction. Like, just survive this and get the fuck out of here. And so, like, you know, one of those was. I remember being at a dinner table with three people I work with and then three customers, and this was right around, like, the federal change to gay marriage, and this table switched to this. Like, you know, don't get me wrong. And of course, it always starts like that, right? You know, like, don't get me wrong, but, you know, I don't care what they want to do at your house, but you start coming around, trying to turn my kids gay and do any of this, and I'm like, this is. What fucking year is it that we believe that?

How.

How are you all grown men who've never known a gay guy?

Mm.

How are you so fucking threatened and terrified by this? I mean, do you guys not see that this is the exact same fucking thing that we did in the 60s with black people? This is gonna fall, and it goddamn well should.

Did you say that?

No.

Yeah.

Because these people are stupid, and you can't fix that. So you just sit. Now I remember sitting there, and I just. You know, I think the only time I've ever spoke up for something like that, like, in that environment, because I'm at work and I'm paid to represent this company, that I'm not paid there to be me, right? So that's different. Now, if I'm at that table now, oh, yeah, we'll have it. And so I usually try to backdoor that conversation with, like, let's start at a point where we can agree on, and then we'll spiral out from there to figure out where shit's gone south.

Well, there's certain levels of consciousness, man, like, you know, you the consciousness you had 10 years ago, or even having conversations with these guys in Texas, do you feel like you're even the same guy? Like, how has your consciousness grown in the past five years? How long has this company been around? Five, five years. So interesting. So in five years, in order for you to found this and have somewhat of a balance, which I'd love to learn about how you balance, like relationship, health and wealth. That's a show in itself. But before we get to that, man, like, what. What about you and your consciousness? Your awareness of your environment, yourself and your friends and your relationships, how has that grown since you founded the company?

I think following the mentality behind it of, like, it's what I loved about doing individual sports, whether that was Highland Games or track and field. Right. Was that I liked the idea that my success or failure was mine. And so owning failure, too, is a big part of it. I didn't succeed at this because I didn't do very well. Also realized that, oh, that's a thing I'm fucking bad at. And that's okay, too. Hard work doesn't just earn you the right to be good at a thing. And so it is that awareness of, like, if shit's gone south, where did I fuck this up? Not the other people involved, because I can't control them. I don't have anything to do with how they think or react. And I can't lean on them because they're not employees. They're friends and family and people like that who have their own life experiences. And I think that consciousness of trying to realize that other people have lives that have shaped them to get to where they are too, that this may not be just this singular moment, that if we deconstruct this, we're deconstructing a lot. You know, recently one of the things I read was talking about Bourdain's death. And, man, I mean, there hasn't been a. For a male in our generation, there isn't a guy who anyone I know has looked at more and been like, that's the fucking life.

He looked like he had it all.

He does. He does. That's not up for debate. He did. He got to write the things he wants to write, traveled to do the things he wants to do. And the write up I read on it was from this other artist I really like, David Cho. And David talks about knowing Anthony pretty well and saying something along the lines of, last time we talked, you had told me you were in a rough place and that you were getting help and this and that and you didn't. And for a man who's traveled all the corners of the earth and still never dove into himself to fight his own demons. Fuck you, he says. I love you and I miss you, but fuck you, he says. It's just a really shame that we live in a time that. How does the most interesting man on earth get to complain and say he's depressed and he's not happy? Because we all compare it. How can I be upset with my life and the things that I get to do that are so extraordinary when someone else doesn't. Doesn't get to. And so that makes people bottle a lot of shit up. And then the other half of what he said there was. At some point we have to realize pain and trauma are not a competition and that everyone's dealing at 100% all the time for them. And I really liked that, that I just have to realize that people are doing the best they fucking can with the tools they're given.

Do you really think that people are doing the best they can? I remember Brene Brown was talking about this in her book, I think it's Braving the Wilderness. She said that she was meeting with her therapist and she was like, I just feel like people aren't really doing the best they can. And her therapist was like, no, they actually are. And she had to go through this learning process. What do you think, man? Do you think people are doing that?

I think they are. I think that there's better than they can do, but I think a lot of people are surviving, right, that. That aren't aware you're not conscious. And so the idea that like, well, this is. This was the plan, this nine to five, right? It's. It's the same person who grows up in this small town who doesn't know things are better because I never left. And if I don't know things are better, I'm okay with this.

And that is the best they can?

Yeah. Based on their environment, this is the best they can. That maybe sometimes there is ignorance, you know, you know, bliss or ignorance. And there's nothing wrong with that either. I mean, are you hurting other people you're around? If the answer is no, fucking fine, man. But. But you don't get to sit and complain that you're not happy and wake up and do the same fucking shit tomorrow that that doesn't work. You don't get to complain that you're fat. You don't get to complain that I'm depressed and I'm not. And then not do any fucking work to fix it. That's unacceptable. But if things are okay and you're happy, right on. You're doing the best you can.

I think you bring up a rad point about, like, look, it's not okay that you don't try. And this guy that knew Anthony Bourdain that said, I love you, but fuck you, there's some truth to that. And then there's also so many nuances to understand, like how one even gets to that place where they know what you just said is true. You know, where somebody actually understands, oh, my responsibility is my responsibility because they're only used to the model that was from their parents or their community or their teachers or whatever it is. Do you feel like people are coming to you because you talk about responsibility, because you talk about radical ownership? Is that also why people love the brand and kind of resonate with you? There's that part of them that wakes up that responsibility part?

Yeah, I hope so. You know, I hope. I hope that you know the brand with a little bit harder message of, you know, do the work and train and all the. The lifting side of things. Right. The mechanical side of it. I. I hope that some of the other part filters in. Right. That I want to teach people why we're fishing, not how to fish. So I think that's important that the mechanic side can be taught. But why we fish matters, and so why we give a. That matters because time is precious. And the only thing we've got that's finite is that that clock is fucking running.

And speaking of the clock running, I want to figure out in my own life, I'm 38. I want to figure out how I have a business, a girlfriend, a wife, and my health, all three. Now I'm asking you a selfish question. I know a lot of people listening are feeling the same way. How do you do this, Matt? How do you balance the health aspect, the business drive and the relationship? How is that even possible?

It's not always balanced.

That's constantly a pendulum.

Yeah, I mean, it's that I haven't. I haven't been home but for 21 days since the 20th of May. Like, it's not balanced. Shit's. I'm tired, you know, but you get to a point where you're so used to spinning plates all the time that you're not comfortable not spinning plates. And so you get really comfortable in the chaos and in the travel and the not being. And there gets to a point where, because my wife and I aren't hanging out that much that I'm more uncomfortable at home than I am gone. Because I feel in the way. No, I fucking hate it. Okay, so that's the thing that needs to be sorted out. And it's come to a head of like, we gotta sort it out. I've got to kill the other noise that I've allowed to be the distraction because I know this is so solid. I don't have to maintain it, but you do. And so it seems everything falls into place for me as long as I can. As long as I've got a barbell in my hand a couple of days a week, my head works better. So I know that. So that one's non negotiable. The one that's been negotiable. And it's this year and it's trying to run and do the business thing, right? But so much of it becomes this shotgun approach that it isn't focused. It's just. Yes, and more. I can do more. I can fucking carry more of a load. I can do more. Well, I fucking can't. Tired. I need to go home. I need to recharge. I need to reset the compass. I need to set goals and refocus.

Amen.

And the goals can't just be go. You know, I need to reconnect with that person that I've lived with for 12 years. And that's gotta be. That's gotta be done too. That grass has got to get watered. You know, it doesn't. It doesn't take care of itself.

How does that look from a tactical perspective? Do you literally put it in your calendar, like, hang out with the woman I love as an appointment in your calendar right now?

Yeah. Yeah, damn near.

Do you think that's how it has to be now for 2018, 2019 for people?

No, I don't think it does.

Why did it end up that way?

Because you're. I know me, right? So I'll just talk about that. Chasing stimulus. So I want these conversations because, man, that clock that I talk about, that ticking, that finite number, like, I have X number of heartbeats left. That isn't. That is a number. I don't know what X is. But as of today, there's a shitload less than yesterday. And so sitting on the couch and doing the 9 to 5 average thing terrifies me of, like, it's just tick, tick, fuck are you doing? Go. You know, you. You can. That I have the ability to leave and fuck off and go. And I did it. I was gone for 34 straight days in the middle of, you know, from. I was gone for all of July and then followed that up with home for five days and then two weeks in Iceland and home for two days and then out here for a wedding and then home for two days. And while she's with me for a bunch of it. There's a difference in us going somewhere and her being with me. There's a difference. Whereas I'm going to do the things that I need to go do because all of it is still kind of work. And then going somewhere for us to be together, it's different. You know, the two weeks we did rafting and camping on the Grand Canyon this summer with no cell service for two weeks.

Beautiful.

It was good.

Did you feel the pull of like, oh my God, what's going on with my business?

Of course.

Yeah.

Yeah. Constantly.

Yeah. And you just breathe back into the space.

Just try to breathe back into it because just stay in it. And something like that scenario. I think it's really easy for me, as much as I travel, to feel the world's very small and then being in the Grand Canyon like that for two weeks and realizing like, oh, I can't get out. World gets real fucking big again.

Nature, it seems like for you, man, across your social channels, it seems like that is a huge recharge for you. It is for all men and women. But something about the way you position yourself, you really have a connection with nature.

I like it. And this is relatively new. Have some friends who get. Got more into outdoors and started doing some hiking and camping and I joined them and I was like, oh, this is fucking great.

The Japanese call it Shenrin yoku, forest bathing.

Yeah, I think that's brilliant. Doctors prescribe that shit, you know. And then other studies that talk about like what, what a 30 minute walk out in nature does for as far as dropping depression symptoms and anxiety and all these other type of things, right? Like we're supposed to, we're supposed to have these moments of quiet, but that's chasing stimulus, right. Like when I feel that time's ticking, it's like I'd rather be overwhelmed with stimulus. The problem with that is you don't ever get the downtime to digest the things that you learned to put them into play. You're just consuming and moving.

Nature is the integration. So you're accomplishing all these things. In business, you're thinking about, how do I achieve these optimal levels of health, wealth, relationships. But in nature, it's almost like when you train, when you train and you Tear your actin myosin fibers in the sarcomere. It's not like that's where you get stronger. You get stronger when you sleep.

Right.

That's when the recovery happens.

Yeah, of course.

So when it comes to your mindset around health, wealth, relationships, it's the same thing, man. When you go back to nature, that's where you integrate all those things. Have you ever had a moment where you're in nature and you're like, ah, business breakthrough?

Yeah, of course. Right. You know, I can't, I can't pinpoint one, but like this summer when I was on that road trip, it felt really good that I had time. So like after the Grand Canyon trip, I drove up to the Pacific Northwest and camped for two weeks, give or take, and had a lot of alone time where I got to, got to write and got to sketch things out and get back to me drawing and doing design work that I like to do. And that felt good to be like, oh, yeah, I need to be at the helm.

Yeah.

You know, I need to be the driving force of this. And I've got to do the same focus for the relationship. I always look at things always have such a weird balance. Right. And for me, throwing whenever I was doing that, you've essentially got technique, speed and strength. And there becomes this weird plateau that you'll hit where you are reaching. As good as you're going to be, you're hitting full potential. It's not because I don't have time to train more or any of this. Like this is what this machine's capable of. If I spend any more time building technique, I get slower and weaker. And if I spend any time just building speed, technique suffers. So then I'm not transferring that stuff that I have as well. And if I spend time in the gym just getting stronger, the other two suffer, I'll get slower. So it's trying to optimize all three of these things that pull in a different direction. And so nature, being outdoors and running a business don't typically go so well hand in hand. Right?

Yeah.

Having a relationship but also knowing that I have this need to go and do those also don't go hand in hand, so great either. And so sometimes you overfill one cup and you gotta, you gotta refocus before the other one dries up and dies.

I love the analogy of the cups. Does your lady help you fill your cups?

Yeah.

Does she help you fill the business cup as well?

A little bit, yeah. She's, she's recently started, but we've been very aware since Jump that like, she didn't marry me to sign up and be my fucking assistant. She's got a life too.

Yeah. That probably adds a different dynamic of stress.

Well, I mean, if she wants to work for us and do things, I'll find work. Awesome. But you don't have to do this. That's a big one. Like, man, I don't have to do shit. That's the big change from the old life and old job now to what I feel now is like I don't do anything out of obligation anymore. I don't have to do this. I don't have to be here. I don't have to sit and talk to you for the next however long. I can physically stand up, remove these headphones and walk the fuck outside. There's nothing holding me here. So if you're here, be here and be part of it and give a. Because halfway doing it doesn't do it.

And in the relationship, I think the way that that shows up is that we have old evidence, a lot of this, a deep subconscious mind. There's evidence of not working out.

Yeah.

Whether it is in business, but especially in relationships. To meet her. What kind of a man were you? What work did you do on you? So when she came around that you.

Were ready, there's been a lot of change and growth in way better ways. I'm not sure why she was interested in the guy that she met when I was 22, but we did. And we've both grown a lot. And it's tough too when you're out and you're traveling and I am getting this stimulus from these new people and these new relationships. Kind of the ongoing joke I've got is I'm a really good first date. Like I get to travel and I go meet people and have this really intimate connection of a two hour conversation with no interruptions with someone about us or me or you. And then go grab a meal and continue talking about what the fuck ever else we feel like. Because I don't know anything about you. There's so much to uncover. I don't know what movies you like or what music you're into or feelings you've had or places you like to travel or what you think about this or that. Right. Like, so there's so much ground to uncover. Whereas 12 years in we know each other and so there's not a lot of discovery. But now that we've been apart so.

Much, there is absence makes the heart grow fonder to an extent which is a real thing. But also, too much absence makes the heart decay.

Too much absence allows both of you to get comfortable with absence, you know, to get comfortable with the idea that, well, I don't want to get too upset when he leaves because he's leaving. I know he's leaving. He always leaves.

Yep.

Now, there's a. The end of a. There's an end of a grizzly bear song called. The song. It's called a Sleeping Ute, and there's a line from it that a couple years ago, she pointed out, and she was like, the song always reminds me of you. And I listened to it, and I was like, that's not flattering. And it's like, I know no other way, but straight on out the door is part of it. And I'm just like, man, do you.

Feel like, from a spirit animal perspective that a bear is your spirit animal?

No. No.

What's your spirit animal?

I don't know. I don't know.

Well, then maybe it's in your tattoos. You have an incredible array of tattoos.

I have a bunch of tattoos. Not a lot of animals. I have an alligator, but that's just Southern.

That's just because. Do you honestly identify from a perspective in social media? Like, are you proud of this Cajun heritage?

Not really. Like, it's never. It's.

That's honest.

Yeah, I've never. It's never been this defining characteristic of me.

Yeah.

I mean, I don't speak French. I mean, I did grow up doing Southern, but I don't consider it to be weird. Like, I did grow up. We did trap alligators. Like, we did all that. Like, I. We had a big lease that we trapped people trapped for, and we had 200 alligator tags a season, and we trapped alligators. I've stepped on more fucking dead alligators in the bottom of a boat than most people ever see. But I don't consider that to be this big chapter. Right. And it's kind of the same way that I felt about throwing in the Highland Games. And, like, while I did that and I loved it, and I was very committed to it, and how far I threw in winning world titles were never going to be on my tombstone. This was the thing that opened a fucking door. This was the thing I did because I loved it. I don't need you to love it. I don't give a shit. I loved it. I loved getting to travel with my buddies. I loved getting to see the world and compete all over the place and do a thing that I always felt like the Quality of athlete that I am as far as a global scale should not be getting to do. So some weird gaming. The system has allowed me this entry to a thing.

What do you love most about throwing? I actually I threw shot put in discus in high school. Toot my own horn beep. Very small beep compared to the Highland Games. The Highland Games.

Well, people that are really good at shot put and discus go to this thing called the Olympics.

Exactly.

It's cooler.

I love the feeling of the shot put actually leaving my hand because it was like all that I could and then it was gone in a split second. What do you feel like when you throw things and this Hylian Games for people that don't know what exactly is that?

So there's nine events. So we throw all nine. So the one that everyone knows is the caber. That's the telephone pole. So we throw that. You throw it for accuracy. You want it to flip and fall away from you.

What's the weight of that pole?

They vary because it's different everywhere you travel. And so I compete like 22, 23 times a year. So they're different every week. But give or take 20, 22 foot, 130 to 150 pounds. They're not heavy, but they're awkward. You know, it's 22ft long and you got to pick it up off the ground and balance it and run with it.

Seems pretty awkward to me.

Flip it over, right?

For someone listening, they're like 150 pound pole.

I know I'm very skewed on what strong is. Okay. You know, it's. It's that and it's travel and it's getting to do those things. And for me, throwing like, man, when throwing's good, it's good. Yeah, like when, when I can feel, you know, a 400 pound clean and, you know, a 200 kilo bench transfer into a 16 pound ball, you feel it all leave and go into it and it lines up and it's perfect. It's so good. And that feeling's just great. On the days that it lines up and it's good. It is. Just pour the fucking coals to it and let's go. Because I've done the work. Just go faster.

And on the days that it's bad. What is it about those bad days? Like golfers, right?

Tiger woods talks about this. Bad.

He talked about this where he can do all the work. And then he. I think he actually had a call with Tony Robbins once on the course because he was like, yo, the fires, everything's. The house is burning down.

House is burning down.

House is burning down. So when you're throwing and you're just. The coals are lit, you're good, you're good. But then you get to one event and I'm sure you've had a moment where like, oh, shit, my mind is defeating itself.

Yeah.

Where do you go then?

Yeah, I lost a national championship last event. Just fucking. No. Heighted a weight over bar. Had it. Had it in the bag, was up by a ton and just shit the bed. And it's one of the more big standout moments in anything I've ever done. You know, I like how you can.

Say shit to bed and smile.

That's what it was. I mean, but at the end of the day, I mean, I'm still in a field throwing a fucking weight over a bar.

You're still having fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm also not defined by this moment either. This was just a thing I did for a time.

Is that what you tell yourself in.

That moment, though, man? What I tell myself in that moment. And that. That goes back to the. The always party side of things. Right? It's like. Like those butterflies and that feeling of like, we're gonna perform now. This is when we do it. This is why I've been out in that field by my damn self throwing. This is why I'm in the garage suffering because the work's done, the hay's in the barn, so now we perform. This is your fucking job. So you take all that anxiety, put it to work, and let's throw. So that's really what it boils down to. Like, now's the time to party. So don't crumble because like anxiety and those butterflies that come from work or a thing that you need to perform. Right? Like all of that, that fear.

Yep.

Dude, it's. It's the same for the hero and it is for the coward. They both feel it. Neither one is indifferent to it. Neither one gets to dodge it. If you were competing and you were pushing yourself, whether that is at your local 5K or you're at the Olympics. And don't forget, the Olympics are simply a track meet and a PR for someone. It is another day in the job.

Yes. Yes.

This isn't a place that equals this thing that people want it to be. And so both of these people feel that thing the same way. And the difference is it's almost the same way. I look at social media or my phone or any of this. Right? Like that thing is fire. And the coward and the hero can both choose. The coward can panic and get overwhelmed and get consumed and let this thing burn his house down and kill his family and ruin everything he's ever built. Or the hero can use the exact same fire, which is indifferent, and cook all of his meals and harden steel and warm his family and provide an energy source. Depends on how you control the same thing. But the fire doesn't give a shit.

And that anxiety, by the way, is just, like, supposed to have it excitement with kind of like a different shirt on. Anxiety is essentially at a lower level, just excitement and a give a shit mentality, as you talked about earlier. So it's really like talking about anxiety in a more open form. I've had anxiety for the majority of my life.

Yeah.

Majority of my life I've had anxiety, of course, but I've also, like, stepped into it. And the more I step into it, the more I realize that I'm just excited about something.

Yeah. Like, the more you lean in before.

You and I talk, I didn't know you at all, but I was, like, slightly anxious.

Right, of course.

Because I'm excited.

Yeah. I don't get to compete anymore. Yeah, I don't get to compete anymore. So, like, doing this or doing, like, seminars or workshops or any of the other stuff I do, I get that feeling.

Yeah, me too.

I get that.

And I think that means we're onto something good.

Something good, man. Because when that feeling leaves, like, so toward the end of my throwing, like, with my knees starting to go south and I couldn't. So when throwing's bad, the easiest way I can describe the way it feels is like you get fucking glimpses that it works in training. Like, it lined up today. That means it's there. Like, that means I can do it. It physically can be fucking done. But it's not so much the normal that you can count on it anymore. And so when throwing's bad, it's like throwing punches in a dream. They don't fucking line up. You can't do anything with it.

I like your analogies, man.

It's just the worst, most frustrating feeling in the world that, like, because nothing we throw is heavy, it just leaves your hand and there's no feeling and there's no push, and it's just. It's just gross. You just feel fucking grossed out by it, and you feel like you didn't even get to participate and try. And so, like, when shit's bad like that, like, it's bad and so avoiding that is good. And I knew that that was on the way, like, that I was having more bad days than good because of my knee. And so tried to get my knee fixed and that didn't work.

What do you mean it didn't work?

So I essentially competed. I tore an ACL in college, got it fixed, and then I retour it a few years later at a skate park and at the time couldn't fix it due to being broke and 22 and not having insurance. So I competed for 10 years without an ACL and trained and lifted and it's fine. I knew what I can and can't do. I can't change direction, like, react to a thing. So, like, basketball's out.

So your whole training, training is sagittal. It's just all straight ahead.

Well, I could do clean as long as I know the direction that you want me to do. I can do amazing things. Yeah, but like, I can't jump on a trampoline anymore, which luckily Highland Games doesn't require a whole shitload of. Yeah, but like, I could spin and turn and be on one foot and be loaded and do strongman training with farmers carries and stuff like that because I know the direction we're going. But like, I can't react quickly to a basketball because I can't turn everything on fast enough to make up for the lack of seatbelt that's in the knee. And so eventually, you know, the shitty sweater of my knee starts to tear and fall apart and so the string gets pulled and had a meniscus go, so went in for a meniscectomy. And then from that point, like, I really can't extend the knee so good anymore to full extension. So the quad's not pushing, which isn't pushing the hip. And I can't throw as far because I can't lead with the hip. And so when you're not leading with the hip, you go to the shoulder. And when you throw at the shoulder, everything feels like shit. You're just not strong enough. And so the second half of 2016 did that.

And I hated it mentally too. Like, injuries can fuck you up.

I don't mind taking less than first. I don't give a shit about the trophy. I mind performing poorly and not having a solution that I just physically don't have it. And so that's a change up, you know, and so then realizing that, like, oh, we're never going to do this again. And that's a weird spot too, because I think everyone essentially is looking for this fucking Thing that we're good at. Right. The skill. Like, where. Where do all my attributes line up to this thing? That is mine. I found it. I was okay as a track and field athlete in college. I was okay at strongman and I was okay at powerlifting and I've been okay at weightlifting. Highland Games worked. I won two world titles and took second five other times and competed around the world and loved it. And I found the thing that I'm better than anyone else on earth at and I'll never get to do it again. I don't get to dabble. I don't get to kind of throw. Shit's done. That is learning to be really good at guitar. And now you don't have hands. You still want to play guitar because your brain can still play guitar. Yeah, I can still throw. I know how it works. I just physically can't do it. It feels like being in someone else's body.

So there. This is where I believe, man, that the philosophical side of you comes in. Because there's an emotional resilience that you had to develop in order to say goodbye to something you love. So what is that for you? Because people listening can feel the same thing. Everybody's had something they love, man, and they've had to say goodbye to it.

Yeah.

And there's no, like, PDF for that.

No, no. It's not good for me. Like. And it took a long time for me to get to it, which. Big surprise. But it's. I knew that one day I'd be done throwing. Father Time wins. Like, that's coming.

Yeah.

So when I. When I. When that decision was made of, like, oh, I'm in chronic pain. We have other things to sort out here before we can ever think about throwing again. Let's sort that out. We need healthy, functional life, not throwing rocks in a field. And so I knew that was coming. I sorted through that. And then over the last two years, what I didn't realize that I'm still frustrated and angry about was that I'm not an athlete anymore. That I'm not this thing that I've always counted on of, like, oh, physical challenge. I'm in. I don't care what it is. That's part of the always party bit, too. It's like we're doing a thing. Cool. Game on. I learn things quickly. I can physically control this machine very, very well. And then that's gone. I can't run anymore. I can't jump. I can't do these things. And so trying to redefine and Make a deal. Not make deals, but, like, what can we do? And stay focused on the cans and not the can'ts. I think that that part's really tough for people that like, okay, so I can't max snatch anymore. I can still snatch. So how do I make that hard? You know, I can also. I can still ride my bike. I like riding. I like being in the mountain. You know, mountain biking or on the road. I like cycling, but I'm not kidding myself at 250 fucking pounds. That I'm ever going to be good at this. Exactly. This is not what this machine was built for.

It's the same goodbye to something that was the way it was that the ego wants to pull you back towards. It's really about the ego's lie, of course. Oh, you know, what you're. I'm 38. My body can look exactly like it did and perform exactly like it did when I was 21.

Right.

There's something coming out here in the near future, and it's a next level of hate of HV I triple I. What is that next level, man? What is the next level for your company? Because right now you're selling products to people that believe what you believe.

Yep.

But what does it mean for you in the future? Like, are you going to branch out?

Yeah. You know, and I think the branch out is more of doing the podcast. Right. And I think more. A little bit more directionally. I want to. I want to write more, which is where things really began for Hate Bran. And so, you know, I wrote some training manuals and stuff like that. And I didn't want to just keep writing programs for the sake of having a new program out there for people to try. Whereas, you know, I kind of get to a point of like, well, this is what I would fucking do. It's right there.

Yeah.

Like, why? Why do you need something else? I'm okay with it. On Mondays, I squat. On Tuesdays we bench, and so forth forever. That's how we make progress and do consistency.

Monday's International Chest Day for most people.

Perfect. Yeah. Most people don't bother with squatting. Yeah, it sucks.

It's really hard. So.

Good. Yeah. Even having a shitty knee. Oh, well, you know, I was able to squat this week and relatively. It's stupid. What causes pain in the knee and not pain in the knee? Like, so can fly home from a place and maybe walk around too much and like, I'll be crippled for a day. Like, I essentially can't. Can't walk. I know that it's trouble or when I landed here, I got off the flight and went to the gym with Jordan and I squatted 475 for a couple triples and a bunch of other volume and fine, good to go. No problems at all. So perfect. This is, this is an equal balance, right? So I think with the brand. Right. I think a lot of it is just evolution of the message, you know, and trying to, trying to get it, get it to more people and be honest with it and not chasing sales or views or any of this other thing. But this is our wheelhouse. Let's focus and let's do this really well. Let's monopolize this corner. I don't, I don't, I don't want to fucking have my shit in academy, you know, or, or do any of that. That's not the thing. If, if that becomes a side effect of something being so much of what I believe in, then cool. But that's not the goal. I don't want that. I essentially just want to wake up and do whatever the fuck I want to every day. That's what I want.

This is the ultimate dream.

Yeah.

And to quote Tony Robbins, where I talked about it with Tiger Woods, Tony Robbins, life of a dream is to be able to say no to anything he chooses. Look, man, that's the ultimate dream.

You know, for a less eloquent way of saying that, I remember there was a Joe Rogan was talking about it and one of my favorite things he said was, is like, there's no point in having fuck you money if you never say fuck. You say no, no, I don't want to do that. No.

Yeah.

And that's, that's remembering that I'm not obligated to do shit. You know, I'm not obligated to trade. I get to train, I get to go in the garage and sweat and do that because I'm healthy enough and I've got some free time, you know, and that, that time I'm not going to spend sit on the couch being a bag of shit.

How important is language for you? Because I think about the way that as a brand creator, language and the way you position things from a place of being still you. It's not like you're trying to manipulate anyone. It's just being authentically. You sure. How important is language conscious communications in your branding? Because I loved how you said I don't have to do this thing. I get to subbing out, have to get totally different. Powerful switch.

Yeah, that's a big switch up and that's. That's a big one. Mentally, I think. I think that matters a lot, dude. I think the way that we communicate in being conscious of the words we choose matters. You know, for me, I say fuck way too often. It's basically a stutter word. You know, I'll just use fuck instead of saying, but who gives a shit? It's a fucking word. It's a sound that came out of my mouth. It doesn't have this weird power over us that anyone thinks it does. Right. And I think that's taking ownership of it. And I think that you can control that bit. At the same time, I don't want to make a shirt that says fuck on it because I wouldn't wear it. Despite that, I know that I could do something like that and it sells well. I won't wear it. You know, one of the things that we've had that sold really well is a coffee mug that says kick today in the dick.

And interesting way of saying, rise to the challenge.

Yeah, that, you know, bring the. Bring the fight. Don't sit and wait for it to come to you. Be on the offensive strategy.

Yeah.

So bring the fight to today. Like, today's an opportunity. They were not just surviving. We're going to thrive.

One of the things I love to do with guests, especially somebody who has, like, philosophy and strength like you, is like to read quotes of people that I love and then see how you take that quote. This is actually from Carl Jung. He says, knowing your own darkness is the best method for dealing with the darkness of other people. How do you take that quote in yourself and your brand?

I think it's really important. I think knowing yourself is super, super important. You know, I immediately hear that and I think about, you know, the idea of more Nietzsche type stuff, of, you know, the abyss and, you know, fighting monsters, right? That, you know, be careful fighting monsters. Least we be, you know, where that will turn into a monster. Ourselves or the looking to the abyss. The abyss looks back. And you got to dive into those fucking parts of yourself, dude. Pretending that they don't exist doesn't make them not exist. And if you've got darkness, that's okay. And the people like us, man, the people that are going to go and do and create and drive forward and have this other gear that other people don't. I got more fucking darkness than they do, too. I got more light, you know, than your guy who wants to live completely in the bell curve. And everything's going to be a pretty smooth transition. So my ups are going to be real good, but the downs are going to be real shitty.

It's a greater bandwidth, but you don't.

Get one without the other. And so you survived the down. And that was something I'd said to a friend of mine. We had a bit of a falling out, and she was sick and she got some stuff sorted. And one of the things she had, after getting sorted through it, she just kind of reached out and was like, you know, thanks. You know, a lot of people bailed and, you know, you know, I attacked and stuff like that. And you never. You never bid on it. You never fought back. And I said, not scared of the dark. I don't mind it. Like, I don't mind that, that part of you. Because what I see is someone who's wounded and, you know, you can have a dog your entire life that you get along with, and things are fucking great when that dog's sick and tired and it's dying, it'll bite you. It's not the dog's fault. It's not your fault. So treat it that way. But sometimes people are going to have a dark, dark moment, man. It ain't got shit to do with you. So don't fight into it sometimes. Take the punch.

The interesting part about people that might not want to go into their darkness, Speaking of this quote, it's the same thing that applies to not wanting to go to a physical pain point. In other words, the skill set of going into the darkness, whether it's physical or emotional, that is something that I think is lacking. And this goes back to the first 10 minutes of our conversation. The resurgence of being in the darkness. The people that are here running this event. You know, some of these people are running like, 20, 30, 40, 50 miles, right, while they're here.

Yo, it's ugly.

That is darkness, my friend. Of course it is. Same thing with the barbell. I mean, you can go to a place with a barbell where it's total darkness. You're like, I. I don't know if I'm going to be able to lift this weight, but I'm going to do it anyways. Elliot Hulse calls it, I'm gonna lift this weight or die trying. Right? So this mindset, though, how do you see this unfolding as you grow the brand even stronger of a voice?

It's a balance, and there's definitely a balance of trying to share that idea and mindset that strong's better and that stronger life's a better one, but I don't need it. To be tough guy, rah rah. Bullshit. I don't want me to give a shit about your success more than you do. That can't work. You've got to give a fuck. You've got to be the one to instill it in you that this is the standard and this is the line that we hold, and this is non negotiable and that's that bit of hating yourself enough to do the work, right? Like good enough isn't good enough today that I'm not content, you know, I'm not owed the.