267 Keith & Michelle Norris | Beyond The Curtain of Paleo f(x)

To be a healthy human, to have optimized health, there's six pillars that you have to have.

There are study after study that essentially summarize this one idea. That idea is people will give their pets medications at a higher frequency of consistency than they will take their own medications. Obviously, the pharmaceutical industry would love to find out why that is right, because they need to push more pharmaceuticals out the door. But the underlying thing is, why do people do that? It's because they love their pets more than they love themselves. When you examine that and you look at it and you see that reality, that's a harsh reality, man. Well, I've got to get you to love yourself first, and then everything else is going to fall into place.

That's Keith and Michelle Norris, and this is episode 267 of Wellness Force Radio, where we discover the physical and emotional and intelligence to live life well. In this special edition Friday podcast, we're talking with the founders of Paleo fx, Keith and Michelle Norris. We're going behind the curtain today for an exclusive one of a kind conversation with the hearts and minds of this global conference way beyond just Paleo and into the realms of deep explorations for over 8,000 people. Coming up at the end of April in Austin, Texas. I love this episode for so many reasons. First of all, Keith and Michelle are true wellness warriors. They have dedicated their entire lives to now creating the space for men and women to do powerful inner and outer work with the phrase they've coined, heal thyself, change the world. This is true. We cannot do anything with anyone else or for the world unless we heal ourselves. The crazy thing is that When I was 24 years old, I was a first year trainer. I remember getting up in the morning and I was like, I gotta change the world. I felt this pressure to, like, change the world. Well, little did I know, there is no world that can ever be changed unless I change myself. And that is really the reality of what we're exploring here on today's special podcast with Michelle and Keith, we're talking about the challenges and really the new wave, the excitement of this new Paleo movement that incorporates optimizing perspectives for helping improve health, all based on the latest science. But here's the thing. Everyone's different. This is not about eating butter, bacon and coffee, although those can sometimes be fun things to eat. Paleo FX is really about understanding your unique genetic makeup and the symptoms that actually provide the pathway to health goals, to feeling awesome, to living life. Well, you get to choose the path that is right for you from all these speakers and world class educational pieces you will hear at the Paleo Conference. And with Keith and Michelle, we're talking about their big why? Why do they do this since 2012? Why are they going through all the challenges to create this beautiful event, this powerful event for everyone? They're doing it because it's in honor of their daughter. The loss of their daughter fuels their dedication to this movement every single day. Keith and I will also go back and forth about Carl Jung and the shadow self, how this exploration of emotional intelligence is woven into the health and wellness conversation. And Michelle and I talk about these six pillars of health that she's learned to be the most true in her own personal health journey in moving towards a Paleolithic diet. So if you personally have been curious about ancestral and Paleo lifestyle, you're gonna love this podcast. And if you've been looking for a health event and you live in the Austin, Texas area, or if you are listening to this podcast today and you start to feel something warm like an excitement, your internal barometer says I need to go to this conference. Join us be with the rest of your Wellness warriors from Wellness Force Live in Austin on on April 26th through the 28th. And don't tell anyone, but my birthday is on the 29th. So if you're in town, I'd love to actually have you to dinner with us at the Salt Lake Barbecue that Monday night. Come join us by heading over to WellnessForce.com PFX that's WellnessForce.com PFX I'll just say this one last thing. If you've been feeling lonely lately, if you've been wanting connection, welcome to being a human being. The best antidote for loneliness and lack of human connection is taking that first step, that first maybe nervous or anxious step to actually join your community. Leave your house, leave the couch, leave the thing that's causing you the loneliness and get out there. I saw this just a few weeks ago in person. We had 50 people breathing and dancing here in Encinitas and I know that you're going to get exactly what you need if you take that first step. Come join us in Austin and on April 26th just head over to wellnessforce.com PFX snag your ticket. I'll see you in Austin. And now let's jump in with the dynamic duo of consciousness, wellness and Paleo with Keith and Michelle Norris. Running. Running this big of an event is not for the faint of heart.

At all.

Like, I don't think people understand to Run an event. How many people are expected this year?

We're expecting 8000.

Yep. 8000 human beings. Caring for them, planning for them, communicating with them is like, not for the faint of heart. And the first year was 2012, right?

Yes.

Right.

And in 2012, Keith, you had something really cool that I was reading online, and you were saying that sometimes in Texas, there's a phrase getting drug behind a truck. And the first year in 2012, there was this moment where it felt like being drugged behind a truck because you were combining it with south by Southwest at the same time. What was the biggest lesson since 2012 that you both have learned collectively?

Oh, God. We could do the whole podcast on what not to do in event planning.

Okay.

Really? It was trial by fire. Drug behind the truck. Learn as you go. But that's entrepreneurship, right? I mean, that's entrepreneurship, really. You just have to have the wherewithal to stick with it. And if it's. And if what you're doing you believe in, with everything in your heart and soul, you know, you'll heal up from all those scars. Yeah. But, yeah, it was. It was tough going.

Yeah.

This is why I was excited to talk to you both, because this will be the first year that I'm moderating panels at Paleo fx, which is super fun. And one of the people that I love is Dan Pardee. And it's funny. I don't know if he talked to you guys or not, but I was actually saying it would be a dream to moderate a panel with Dan Pardee. And then, bam, it happened.

No, Dan hasn't told me that it's funny. Dan tells me me all kinds of stuff, but that wasn't one of the things he told me. This is what's interesting is I build the schedule based on my intuition and based on where I think things need to go and who needs to be where it's funny, because this is probably the fifth time where somebody has said, oh, my God, I was hoping that I was going to get on that panel. And I'm like, okay. So it's really funny because I totally just do this by intuition. So you were sending the vibes out. The universe was receiving them, and they delivered.

It's so interesting, and I think people can relate to this. Like, have you ever had that moment where you're about to text someone and they text you or, you know, quantum entanglement? Do you both feel divinely guided this year? Like, this year seems like it has the most momentum of any year.

Yes, I personally do. I can't speak for Keith, but I definitely personally do this year. You know a lot about my. Our. Our spiritual background, the journey that we've been on. We've worked a lot with plant medicine, and we bring a lot of that into pillow effects, into our team, into the team culture, into receive what we're supposed to be doing and deliver what we're supposed to be doing. So we work. I don't know if you or your audience know a lot about human design, but we really work heavily with it because we honestly believe that's kind of our underlying operating system, if you will.

Yes, I am a manifesting generator.

So am I.

Okay, cool. This is why we vibe. What about Keith? What are you? What's your human design?

I'm a generator. I'm a pure generator.

Okay.

But my type, if you look at my type. So I don't want to go down a rabbit hole here with human design, but my type is a 6:2. And the hallmark of being a 6:2 is you, quote, unquote, really start living at 50, because essentially, you bang your head against every wall, you make every wrong turn, you make every decision from the time you're born to your first Saturn return, which is roughly 29, 30. Then you say, I'm tapping out. I've had enough of this. I've been beat up so much. You withdraw essentially out of society and you go into a hole for the next 20, 30 years, and you learn. You just observe. You learn. And then whether you want to or not, you get pulled right back into society in a big way. And if you look at. I don't want to put this all on me. Michelle has done 90% of this work. But as far as my relationship with paleo effects, that's exactly what happened. I mean, I was always kind of the reluctant, and I'm still making that transition, man. I'd rather just peace out and go to the coconut farm and do my thing. But that's not happening. Right back against your will. Almost right back into the spotlight, back into the mix, which, fortunately for Keith.

He'S married to a manifesting generator.

Either by or by entrepreneurship. I'm here. I am. Bam.

Well, and the coolest part is you're wearing this shirt that sparks my attention. Heal thyself, then change the world. And whether it's Alan Watts or any of the great masters, like, if we don't do work on us as a human being, a solo human being, I think it's almost like the ego that wants to say, I'm stressed out about Changing the world. But really the soul knows heal yourself first. Like this is the concept since day one with paleo effects. How did you guys come up with that concept?

Well, it's just that whole analogy of when you're on a plane and planes going down and the air mass come down, they tell you you got to put yours on first and then help somebody else. Clearly, if you are trying to help somebody else, don't get their mask on and don't get yours on. You're not helping anyone. So we're really took that analogy kind of to heart is that you have to take care of yourself first or you're not going to be able to take care of others. And the thing is is that particularly obviously for me, I'm a mom and I identify with lots of other mothers who are trying to do everything, but the problem is they never fill their tank. They never do things to take care of themselves. They always come last. And in all honesty, you have to come first for your family to come next. And so the problem is that we just don't do that. And so Keith is the one that actually came up with this slogan. It was actually heal thyself, harden thyself, change the world. But we realized a lot of women would not identify with the harden thyself. And our demographic, and we know our demographic really well, is 67% women. So we removed the hard nice self part. But so heal thyself still is about strengthening yourself, is about doing all those things. So we felt like that that was the right message. And so.

And it's personal experience, right? I mean, Michelle had her health issues. I've had, you know, I didn't really have health issues. I had a whole host of other types of issues, but not health related. And it comes from military and sports training. Right. So I was heavily involved in football. And in football, the concept is you have to be the best player at your position every down, every play and every. If everybody takes that concept, then you have a winning team. And that's the same here. You have to take care of yourself first, hone yourself first, and then you can spread the message outside this element of tribe.

It's interesting you mentioned sports and one, I think a cornerstone of PaleoFX is Tribe. How have you guys seen tribe change over the years? You know, it's been, gosh, this is the sixth year of PaleoFX. This is the eighth year. So in eight years you have had to have seen a common thread that connects the tribe.

One of the things that we see and that we hope that people understand and know about this is the assumption around the Paleo movement is that PaleoFX is probably this, and I know this for a fact because we've actually had people tell us this. They assumed that everybody that came to Paleofx, we're going to be buff and fit and jacked and the whole nine yards. And that's just not the case. We see every single walk of life at Halo Effects. We see every person that's at the beginning of their journey to man. They've really dialed stuff in and they're super optimized. Their health is completely on par. They've got their sleep, they've got their. All of those things are all running on all cylinders. The thing is that it doesn't matter. It's all still the same journey because you started somewhere where you didn't want to be and you're headed to somewhere where you want to go. That's the common thread that binds all of us together. And you have all of these people who are super like minded, they all are striving for the same thing. They all want to learn what is the optimization trick that's going to get them to that next level, that's going to get them just a little bit further down the their path, down their journey, all of that stuff. And they're always willing and open to talking and helping others particularly that have just started the journey and are just starting to figure out what is this Paleo thing and what in the hell is n equals 1 and what does that mean? And what am I supposed to do? And am I supposed to do this? And the thing is, at the end of the day, we're not supposed to do anything but find what works for us. And my Paleo looks so completely different than Keith's. Like, completely different. Mine is actually way more like Mediterranean. Obviously no grains, but I'm way more Mediterranean. So I don't do as much saturated fat. I'm Apoe3four. And the thing is that there's some people where their Paleo is going to look a little more vegetarian. Yeah, they're going to do a lot more vegetables, they're going to do a lot less protein. That's how things are going to roll for them and that's what's going to work for. And then you're gonna have people that are kind of just, well, carnivores. Obviously. The carnivore diet, that's definitely not gonna work for someone like me and it won't work for him. But maybe a Little bit of the time. But when Keith works out, he's gotta.

Have carbs, you know, So I love this because we've had many guests on the show that have talked about shortcuts in the brain, heuristics. And I think when it comes to Paleo, people always wanna put things into boxes, like, okay, I'm gonna eat this much meat, this much vegetable, this much carb, and my life's gonna be perfect forever. No, there's so many inputs, there's so many things. This is why every single year it's different for all of us. Like, you guys, if I would have tried to eat the same now at 38 that I did at 28, my life would be chaos. It would be. It would not work. And I think it's this constant undulation of change that really keeps people coming back to the well of knowledge for Paleo. Because this conference is not just about Paleo. Like, yes, it has the name Paleo, but what's the. What's. What do people get wrong about Paleo effects? Cause I think for me, I know it's not just about Paleo.

Well, we've had this conversation before that most people think it's about butter, coffee, bacon and CrossFit, and they're there in.

Some way, but they're not the whole thing at all. It's just a fraction.

And that is. Right. That is a piece of it. And that element is definitely covered there. But I mean, let's just. On the conscientious spirituality side, people are surprised that that's so heavily represented at PaleoFX, or dismantling the financial systems or disrupting education or any of these elements. That's all relationships.

Well, this is the thing. In our opinion, to be a healthy human, to have optimized health, there's six pillars that you have to have. And in those six pillars, it's a really, at the end of the day, it's about your epigenetics, your lifestyle, it's your environment, it's all of those things. And so we include, like Keith said, spirituality is part of the lifestyle. Relationships are part of the lifestyle. Emotional health, physical health, financial health and mental health.

Yes, yes.

And so we encompass all of those at Paleo effects. So, yeah, the big thing is that most people put again into a box that we're Paleo, we're wanting carnivores, we have it out for the cattle of the universe, apparently. And so that is a big, huge myth. And at the end of the today, we have a lot. And I'm Just going to really shout out. Epic has been part of Pillow Effects from 2013. They launched their company at Pillow Effects in 2013. I cannot tell you what better humans Taylor Collins and Katie Forrest are than we've been to their ranch. And the reverence that they have for animals and for the way that things should be done and is, like, unparalleled. There's handfuls of people that believe along the lines, you know, Joel Salatin, Allen Savory, Bobby Gill, the people from animal welfare, all of those things. Those are the things that people don't know about us. That they get that wrong, that they think that we just see cattle as these lowly animals that are here to serve us. That's not true. We are here to serve them, then they serve us. And the thing is, is that when people start really understanding what regenerative agriculture is all about and actually taking care of our land and being good stewards of what we've been given and we've been gifted this, first of all, being the ones with the most supreme brains, being the ones that are supposed to dominate the earth. And the thing is that dominate isn't meant to be like, okay, you all die because I need to live. That's not how things are, and that's not how we see things. And so that's part of what we do at PaleoFX is we educate on the fact that we can be Paleo, we can eat animal products, we can eat animals, but that we can have reverence for what they lived for, all of those things and how they died for us. And we need to ensure that they all die in a manner that is respectful and that we give them reverence when it happens and that we give them gratitude for that life. And the thing is, is that, you know, that doesn't happen to them. If they're out in the wild world, they are going to be killed and killed in a very inhumane way by predators. And so we just have to remember, and this sounds super corny and whatever, but all of it is the circle of life. But as humans, we have the capacity to truly understand they are sentient beings. And we can give reverence when they die, and we can make sure that they die in the most peaceful and unviolent way as possible. And the thing is, I can tell you that cathos, you know, the controlled.

Animal feeding operations, right, Cathos, Are not.

A humane way for them to die. It is a violent death. And it's not. And I don't mean like people are. It's a Violent death for them.

And a poor life.

And a poor life. And they aren't. They are not served first. They are only seen as a means to serve us at one point. And they do nothing great for the earth and they actually destroy. So I can see where this is where we have a lot in common with vegans and vegetarians. And this year we actually have a big name vegan coming to Paleofx.

That's awesome. Okay, that must have been challenging because I think about how many people in the Paleo community that maybe aren't doing enough work, maybe they're not conscious and they might have animosity towards veganism, but guys like, doesn't matter what camp you identify with as long as your actions have a conscious barometer.

Right, Agreed. And the thing is, is that we have so much more in common than we don't. We've been trying for years to get a vegan to come to Paleo.

I love that there's a vegan coming. This is great.

Yeah. Because I, at the end of the day, like I said, we all, at the end of the day have so much more in common than we don't. And we need to stop fight against each other and we need to fight with each other because really we're not the ones that we need to fight. We're not the ones keeping the other from being able to do. It's going to ultimately be our government that chooses for both of us what we're going to eat if we don't stop that.

Right. I mean, what does Big pharma, Big ag, big medical, big insurance. What do all these want? They want division down below. They want division between vegetarians, vegans and Paleo carnivore. They want all this. Right? Same thing in the political realm. I won't go there. But division for those higher above is good. Number one, it keeps the eyes from peeking behind the screen and seeing Oz. Oh, is that how that shit operates? No. If they keep this eternal infighting going, that's good for them. They get to operate and keep these divisions going and keep you on the dole. Right. Keeps Big Pharma in place. Keeps Big Ag in place. But if we come together and come together as a unified force against these entities, we stand a much stronger chance of succeeding.

This is why I love the conference so much this year. I'm probably the most excited ever because I was so inspired in 2017 by Mark Coppola, who was on the stage, one of the panels that actually people would think, what does this have to do with health. But it was about our spending attention. It was about our attention being currency, which I found fascinating, Keith. And it's to piggyback on what you just said. If we have language of division, you know, look at even the MeToo movement, how it's changed. It's not about me too, it's about we too. It's about all of us together, right? So this conversation, it happens through language that's inclusive, not division based. And I'm curious this year, what is some of the things we're going to be seeing and exploring when it comes to the power of language and bringing people together with empowering language instead of divisional language?

It's interesting that you actually say that because we actually are going to have a panel, feminine versus masculine, and the gender roles that society puts on us and how that ends up actually playing out. MeToo is part of that. The thing that we see is that the MeToo movement, a great. This has finally been brought to the forefront. We're finally talking about the big, huge elephant that's been in the room and all the skeletons that have been in the room closet. We're finally dragging them all out and we're all talking about them. Problem is that some of the talk that's happening, instead of talking from a place of we need to heal, we need to show grace and mercy in what we're doing, is instead we've got a lot of hatred happening, a lot of vengeance, a lot of wanting. And there is nothing wrong with wanting justice, not a single thing wrong with wanting some justice. And justice is due. But let's watch how we're talking and putting things out there, because at the end of the day, this is probably the biggest thing that will ever change the way men and women particularly, end up having any type of relationship with each other later on down the road. Because our little girls and our little boys are watching all of it. They're hearing it, they're being impacted by it. They are going to have all of this pressure and all of these things put on them. We need to start really thinking about what does that look like 20 years from now? What kind of role will it have played on the way that men particularly perceive the way that they are? Are they going to be perceived as caretakers and people that protect and people that love and that care, or are they going to be perceived as predators? And the problem is right now, little boys are being pursued as predators. Little boys. And there's a particular instance where I think it's somewhere in. It's either north or South Carolina. Somewhere in the South. Maybe it's Virginia. I can't remember exactly where. Little boy in kindergarten kisses a little girl. The parents went after him and wanted him put down as a sexual offender. He's five. Are we freaking serious? He's five years old. He's acting like a little boy. Little boys are supposed to kiss little girls. Sometimes they're going to pull their hair, sometimes they're going to push them down. Sometimes that's going to happen. And we need to allow a natural, organic relationship to happen. And we need to stay the fuck out of the way and let that happen naturally and step in when it's really, truly inappropriate. Because obviously we want to say to little Johnny, you don't push little Sally down. And little Sally, you don't hit little Johnny because you're not supposed to hit each other. This needs to be a mutual thing. We've always made boys feel like. You're not allowed to hit her. Why she's allowed to hit you. Why? That doesn't make any sense. Nobody should hit anyone. And we should always teach that, that we need to have mutual respect, regardless of whether you're a boy or I'm a girl or whatever. And the problem is, that's not what's happening. And now it's even worse. So now we're going to have a lot of men grow up in fear about how they interact with females. And that's sad.

It's really sad because we just had on Dr. Warren Farrell. He wrote a book called the Boy Crisis. And Michelle, it's exactly what you're talking about. Where the parents, actions, men and women that are older, their actions, they're being seen and they're being duplicated by these young men. And also the young women are watching, too. So I love this, you guys. Like, I love how this conversation is dovetailed into the health conversation. Because emotional health, like this is why on the show we always talk about it. Physical and emotional intelligence, right? We're all born with this intelligence. Like, we all know kind of in our deepest heart what's true and what's right, yet we see society and so many things get in the way of that. I almost feel like really what you guys are is a Trojan horse. Like Paleo effects is a Trojan horse. It's a Trojan horse of consciousness. Do you ever think about it from that perspective?

I mean, we would love it to be that way because consciousness is such a huge part of overall health. And if, you know, going back to the Me Too movement for a Moment you have to ask yourself, why is it that men are. Men who are in positions of power, think that it's okay to treat women this way? Right. You have to go back to that. Okay, what was it in their upbringing? What did they not get? What shadow side of themselves is being repressed that's getting squeezed out sideways? Because I'm a huge student of Jungian psychology and plant medicine. And for the last few years it's been a, especially in the plant medicine side, a deep dive into that. And when you go into that and you come face to face with your shadow side, that can be a very, very scary place. And the key is to accept those shadow sides. Yes, I have that capacity within me, but I choose not to express it. Versus repression, repression, repression. Anything that gets repressed will come out and it's going to come out sideways. Okay, so then backing up from that is how do we raise young men to integrate those shadow sides? Because everybody has shadow sides. How do we get them to integrate that? How do we teach them to integrate it but not act on it?

Yes.

Right. So just look at aggression, for instance. You don't want to repress aggression. You want to accept it, integrate it, but only use it when it's necessary. It's the whole. Would you rather be a gardener in a war or a warrior in the garden? I choose to be a warrior in the garden. But if the shit goes down, I know that I can unleash that at the right time for the right reason. For the right reason.

I've been loving this concept of warrior lately, and I. I remember I first heard about it actually through Paul. Check. And I know Paul is going to be at the conference this year, which I'm so excited for, because he has a phrase that relates to what you're saying, Keith. The devil you know is better than the devil you don't.

Absolutely.

So this, this young shadow archetype, to me, the fascinating part about the whole mental and emotional intelligence as it relates to health practice, if someone isn't feeling like they've done really a core work into who they are, how are they going to make great food decisions? How are they going to make great decisions about the way that they exercise and things like that. I'd love for us to riff on this aspect. The concept of mental health and the types of ways that human beings are growing, their mental health and how that completely relates to food choices and exercise choices.

Well, this is the thing. If you don't, if you're not taking care of yourself, if you are not taking care of your mental self. You're not going to think you're worth making the other effort. That's just going to be the way things are. You're just going to always think that you're not worthy. And the thing is that we all. I don't know how it happens. It's the weirdest thing how we all end up in that place where we believe we're not worthy, where we are not worthy of taking care of, we're not worthy of doing things for ourselves. We are not worthy of the time. We're not worthy of self care, we're not worthy of self love. I don't know how we ever get to that place. I was just at a conference a couple of weeks ago speaking in Florida at the Academic Regenerative Practices Conference. And I can't remember who said this, but one of the speakers said, humans are the only creatures that can have a thought and it can change your entire chemical makeup in a split second.

I've been there. We've all been there, right?

And it's the thing is that then when you think about that. Okay, so if my thoughts create who I am inside my body chemically, why are we all not being told this number one. But why are we all not practicing making sure that our chemicals are all positive instead of going into the negative? And I'm not preaching at anybody, for God's sakes, I'm not. Because I can tell you there's nobody that can beat me up the way I can. No one can do it. And so it's just something you have to practice and you have to really be mindful. And it's something that, particularly in the last few years, like Keith was saying with us, doing plant medicines is really deep diving and really going into those places that are not fun. They're pretty ugly, they feel awful, they feel icky. You're just like, ooh, why am I here? But is taking that moment to go, no, there's a positive side because in order to appreciate the light, you have to experience the dark. In order to see both sides, you have to have experienced both sides of it. So when you can switch it, because this is the deal. There isn't anything on earth. And Keith and I have lived through the biggest nightmare anyone can live through, losing our child. If anything, there is not a single thing that can happen to you in your life that you cannot find something, something positive that came from it. There's just no possible way. Because even in our daughter's death, we found the beauty we found the beauty in the ashes, and that's just something you have to be conscious of. That's something you have to be mindful about doing because you can wallow. And I could have definitely curled up. And Keith will tell you there are many days Michelle did not get out of bed, did not get into clothes, stayed in her pajamas, was curled up in a ball, crying. And the thing is, that's okay for a while because you need to do that stuff for you to heal. But there's a moment where you have to finally go, okay, what good is going to come from this? Because good always comes from either nothing or from bad.

If you find it, if you look.

For it and if you find it. And so you have to be conscious about that and going through that. And so those are things that we want and we want. Those are the spaces that we want to go into, particularly with Paleo fx. And we want people to really be critical thinkers, to be mindful about how they live their life and how they use their words. Mark England. I know. You know Mark, right?

Yes. This is the vocabulary gentleman, right?

Yes. And so our entire team went through Mark's program, and you learn architect language and conflict language. And the problem is about 95% of the world operates in conflict language. We constantly. This was something that I was just so grateful for was that I constantly put my attention towards what I didn't want instead of what I wanted. The outcome I wanted was not what I focused on. I focused on making sure my team knew what I didn't want. Well, if they're focusing on what I don't want, what do you think is going to happen? So that's the problem, is we put our focus on what we don't want instead of on what we do want, and then that's where we land. And then we wonder why.

Let's pump the brakes here. You guys just unpacked so much wisdom in, like, three minutes. I want to pause for a moment because there is this default mode network in the brain where there's the negativity bias, there's the habit loops that we all can get stuck inside of. And I love, by the way, I just want to honor. I know we talked about this on episode 167, Michelle, where you talked about the loss of your child, but I just want to honor that because I know in a way that that still lights the fire for why you guys do Paleo every single year. So I just want to acknowledge that. Like, I don't know what that would feel like. But just a testament and a deep bow to what you both have gone through and how that fuels you, you know, and how that fuels you both.

We talked about being drugged behind the truck and, you know, going through all those scars, that's what made it possible because we were like, you know, what's the worst that can happen now? Bankruptcy.

Right.

Okay. Really? Yeah. That's nothing compared to losing a child.

Yeah.

I mean, it really armor plated us.

Yeah.

Entrepreneurship.

And I think that that was one.

Of the things that I've said over and over, is once you lose a child, there's really no fear beyond that. That's your worst fear come to life. And did you live through it? We lived through it. Now I know that there are a lot of parents and trust me, I work with lots of parents now that lose their children that have a very difficult time moving on. And I realize that for some people that is so harsh. They just can't get past that. And I feel very rewarded working with parents who have a difficult time with that. But when you have been able to move on, like we've been able to move on again, like Keith said, there's just no fear past that. The worst that can happen has already happened. We made it through. We're on the other side of it. We're still. Our relationship is still good. You know, it's not perfect. Nothing ever will be. But the thing is, at the end of the day, we live now to honor her. And the thing is that we can do that when people are alive and we don't.

Yes. Yes. And I feel like this is what bypasses the default mode network, the negativity loops is love. It's love and connection to someone, which is really what fuels everything in life. Like, it's so funny, you guys, that it's a platitude. Love is all there is. I find this hilarious that the truth always hides in plain sight. And some of the truth that I feel from both of you has been just this ability to communicate that type of love, to communicate that type of connection. And one of my notes here was about this language piece because I know you mentioned Mark England, this conflict versus the. What was it? The archetype. Language.

Architecture.

Conflict versus architecture.

So you can build something or you can tear it down.

Yes. How do we use this language to not just be a tree hugging hippie, which in my core I think that's who I actually am, but how do we use this structured language to really communicate love in the practical, modern, kind of heady, logistical world? How do we do this?

Well, language really wires your brain. And the habitual use of language, the habitual use of certain words wires your brain. And that changes. Like you said, the default network in your brain, right? So just simple things like using and instead of but but negates what you just said prior. I love you, but you leave the toilet seat up. Or, you know, whatever that might be, that totally negated the first I love you part. Change that around. I love you and I get irritated when you leave the toilet seat up. Yeah, that changes the whole, oh, you still love me. You know, you didn't negate it with the but. And I have issues I need to.

Work on, by the way. Keith does not leave the toilet seat.

Keith is trained. Yeah, I would think. I would think after being married for so long, he would learn early on.

On hardwired into my.

He's never came.

I think my mom took care of that.

His mom took care of that. Thank you, Nancy.

But that's the simplest. That and but thing is the simplest place to start. Every place you would use a but. And I still have to stop myself. There's many times where I'm just, you know, going, and I'll say, but, and I'll have to go back and, you know, rephrase it.

But the two for me that are the deal breakers is should and try. Those two words, I should be feeling this way. I should should has like, this twinge of guilt wrapped all around it. And try, try makes me just so upset because whenever I'm working with like a virtual assistant or a colleague and they say try, I'm like, are you sure that's the right word you want to use? Like, do you really want to try? Or do you just want to say it'll be there at 3pm on Tuesday.

Right? Like, that's funny.

Because our plant medicine facilitators that we work with now who will be speaking at Pillow Effects, and they are amazing people, always say, don't should all over yourself. Because that's where I mean, we do. We do do that all the time. I should do this. Well, why should you? Really? Should you? Or I can do this, or I choose to do this. And everything is ultimately a choice. And I want to go back to your love piece because Brittany had on her car. She was in a car accident, by the way, on the back of her car. And I will not forget this because the pictures that I have of her car and she had this actually on her profile on Facebook. Love wins always. There's no it Just always wins. And so it's a verse, but it's my favorite quote ever, is let all that you do be done in love. And the thing is that I definitely fall short of that, but it is one of the things that I mindfully, really choose to try to operate in. And particularly I've probably done a lot better in that in the last few years working with plant medicine than I did previous to that. It is something that I really strive for. I'm human, I'm going to fall short of that. But it is definitely something that I try to be very mindful of, is that if I really mindfully choose to do something, do it in a place of love so that it actually comes out that way. And again, well, very short, but that is one of my favorite things.

Yes, but it's this. It's this continued work of going into the shadow self and going into the dark so that you can bring more of you, more of who you actually are to the light. That's the whole point of it all. Like, no one does plant medicine because they just want to face their shadow because it's fun. That's. That's not what it looks like. And you know, this, this concept of the shadow. One of my favorite quotes is Carl Jung, and he says, until you make the unconscious conscious, it'll rule your life and you'll call it fate. So there's so many people, so many leaders, Paul Chuck being one of them that are going to be at paleo that understand this concept of young. I'm curious, Keith, like, how long have you been looking into this, this Carl Jung's work?

So I was first exposed to it in college, actually, and I will tell you that. So I majored in poli science, psychology in college. Mostly I went into poli sci because it was the easiest thing I could get into. So I went on a football scholarship. I was a totally different person back then. I'll just say I was a totally different person. Very, very reluctant student until I got to college. And I was actually encouraged to form my own thoughts. This was the first time I had, in an educational situation, was encouraged to form my own thoughts. And I thought at that time, what I can have a free thinking thought that I can actually express. And it's not right or wrong, it doesn't have to answer a question on a test correctly. And I really, really got into psychology and the political science side of things. You know, multiple people in philosophy, in psychology. But I just really gravitated towards. Towards Jung because he seemed to speak to me, it made sense. I understood it all, the shadow work side, before I even knew what's this guy talking about. Shadow sides. It's been a lifelong learning process. And then it really got amplified when I got into plant medicine. Because then it's not just something you're reading in a book and something you're theorizing about. It is. And you know this. When you're in that space that is reality, there is your shadow and you are one with it. You can't escape it, you can't run from it. You can't. I mean, it is right there. And you either deal with it. You know, the whole Buddhist idea of invite your worst fears, you know, to sit next to you and have a cup of tea. Oh my God. I've had a few ceremonies where it was just one shadow element after the next, after the next, after the next.

Yes, yes.

But I am a better person for it. And truly I'm a better person for it. Oh, I know where I was going to go with this. Rites of passage, which is missing. I think it's a huge missing element in raising functional males in this society. We have no rite of passage. And I think that plant medicine can be a proxy for that. It's not the same thing as going through a traditional rite of passage, but it's a hell of a rite of passage.

It's a hell of a rite of passage. Yeah, 100%. And I know this has been a part of your and Michelle's life's work for some time now. And I have experienced this since 2015, I believe is my first ceremony. And I almost feel. I'd love to hear your take on this, you guys. I almost feel like really what plant medicine is, is it's higher intelligence giving us a proving ground here in the 3D so that we can become the warrior archetype that Robert Moore and the other author had in King War. A magician lover. Do you feel like it's a great book? It's one of my favorites. It's actually the one when I was at Rythmia, I was making notes on the back of it because I thought, oh my God, this is the training that we all get to have. And by the way, this archetype exists for women as well. So what are your guys thoughts about this? You know, plant medicine being a medicine for creating a proving ground for us to be a true warrior here in the 3D?

Well, obviously we both are big proponents of that. And like Keith said, that can be the rite of passage. That's Missing from what we're doing, particularly, I think, for women, we have different rites of passage and everything. It can be the same. And so I know for me, it's so funny because the way I approach plant medicine, so I'll just tell you this really quickly, was we had been very interested in it and everything. My whole intention in going into plant medicine was strictly and solely to see Brittany. That was it. I wanted to see Brittany. I would have seen Brittany and been, okay, good. Marked this off of my list. And you know, the saying that you don't get what you want, you get what you need is right on the money. And so went into plant medicine with one intention and ended up coming out going, oh, holy wow. All right. I have all this stuff I've got to work on. And it was. And the whole thing was, is that I have had this desire to know whether or not Brittany would be proud of me. Because, you know, you go into. When you have a child pass or whatever, you go through life and you believe that your kids are pretty amazing. You think, wow, some of the things that you're not always happy with everything they do. We certainly have not been happy with everything that our kids have all done, including Brittany. But you go into. We went into her first memorial service and found out what an amazing human she was. I mean, we just really were gifted with this. An incredible amount of pride for her that she had done all that she had done to change the world and impact lives in a very short, less than 23 years. And so then it becomes this, wow, I am not measuring up. At just less than 23, her work here was done. She had already conquered this life that she was living. She was already done. She was already the winner, and she was allowed to go on. And that was kind of eye opening for me. I got that in my first few ceremonies, was that I haven't done that work yet. She did. And then it became about, oh, okay, I need to do this. I need to do this for. Not just. Not just to make her proud of me, but I need to do this for me, to be proud of me. For everybody that's still here, that's still having to deal with me, that they actually are proud of me and that they are feeling like I am the person that I was potentiated to be here. And so you're constantly chasing that. Because if you are a person that is about growth and development and everything, that's going to be a constant, lifelong chase. You're never going to get there. And that needs to be you need to be okay with it. And I am. I'm okay with it. And I know that my work is not gonna ever be done on me. It's gonna be work that I have to do until the moment that I leave this lifetime. And I am. I feel like that's just something that we have. We've embraced. And I hope I answered your question.

Now that I. I love it.

No, I love it because I feel like underneath everything that the us have talked about today, there has been this concept of love, always winning. And there was a gentleman. I forgot his name. He wrote Be Here Now. He's the author of that. I don't know why I'm forgetting his name. So Ram Dass talked about this concept of love and power, Love and power, and this teeter totter between love and power. How do you think us now, human men and women, human beings in 2019, can effectively ride this seesaw of love and power? We're seeing so many things change so fast, you guys. I mean, I've never seen things move as quickly as they are ever. What is an operating. What is an mo that you both can say from an emotional perspective that allows you to ride that teeter totter?

I'm going to say this, and I know Keith has something to say here in a second. One of the things that I see and that's happening. As much as all of us are cringe at the idea of the toddler that runs our country right now, we have to appreciate and give gratitude for the fact that it happened.

Yeah.

And the reason we need to give gratitude for the fact that it happened is because conscious people have finally stood up and said, oh, hell no, we have to do something. We have some of the most conscious politicians joining, and I don't want to go necessarily go into the political thing, but we finally have some really conscious people who have thrown their hat in the ring and said, it is time for somebody that has a higher consciousness, a higher level of somebody who does the work, who does the personal work to take control. That will be love in power. Because when you actually start working. And the thing that really sucks is that the whole idea of the way that our system was supposed to work was based on what is best for the masses, what is, you know, obviously you're not going to always please everybody. And that's. That was never going to happen. That was never the intention, but it was overall what is for the greater good. And right now, that's not what anybody in Washington is doing except a handful of people. And the problem is, is that until we have a mass turnover of what's happening up there, and I think we're starting to see it, it's starting to pick up speed, and people are starting to go, you know what? The system we have is not working and we need to get rid of it. It needs to go. And that's the thing. It's like we just are starting to see people that are higher consciousness that are going to throw their hat in the ring and they're going to step up and they're going to say, we need to be led in the way that this country was intended to be led.

So I would just say that circling back around to the King, Warrior, Magician, Lover book, that is probably the most accessible book on Jungian psychology that you can dive into. Because reading Jung himself, it's tough. I mean, it's not easygoing, it's a slog, it's heavy reading. But that particular book is a great intro to his thought and it lays everything out.

So there's.

So there's a couple of things I'm thinking. When I was in the pharmaceutical industry and people may not know that I worked for the Evil empire up until 2008, ish.

You got to know it very well. This helps you now.

I got to know it very, very well.

He was in the belly of the beast.

I was in the belly of the beast and actually got into that back in the early 90s because I thought I was actually helping humanity. I thought that was a great place to be. What could be better than pharmaceuticals? Saving lives, yada, yada, yada, all that. It took a while as I rose up through the ranks to kind of peek behind the screen and go, oh, is that how it's working? Oh, I see. I see where all the R and D money is being funneled. I see how this is going. I started to put the pieces together. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. It took me a while to figure it out, but I did finally figure it out. One of the issues with the pharmaceutical industry at the time near when I was getting ready to leave was why people do not take their medications. Right. There are study after study that essentially summarized this one idea. That idea is people will give their pets medications at a higher frequency of consistency than they will take their own medications. Obviously, the pharmaceutical industry would love to find out why that is. Right? Because they need to push more pharmaceuticals out the door. But the underlying thing is, why do people do that? It's because they love their pets more than they love themselves. When you examine that and you look at it and you see that reality, that's a harsh reality, man. I mean, how can you affect any kind of positive change? Now, I took this onto the training floor, you know, actually training people. How can I get you to be consistent in your workouts if you don't love yourself? Well, I've got to get you to love yourself first, and then everything else is going to fall into place. So, you know, kind of going from the. From the barbells and dumbbells side of things to going into the deep psychology of trying to root in to what it is, what is a roadblock that's keeping you from loving yourself. And that's heavy. That's heavy for a lot of people. And when you start peeling back that onion, there are things that come up that are pretty crappy, pretty icky. People have crappy things happen to them on the daily, especially in their childhoods when they have no control, they have no defense mechanisms, and they have to carry this into adulthood. And it just spins out in all these ugly ways, some of which for males looks like what perpetuates the me Too generation. It comes out sideways. If you read that book, king, warrior, magician, lover, you can see these different archetypes just laid out perfectly.

Yes.

You can see the Trump phenomenon. I can't remember. The high chair tyrant, I think is what it's labeled. And you can see that.

Yeah, I love this. I love this, man.

I can see the warrior side way overbalances everything else. And it's the shadow warrior side. It's not the evolved warrior that goes into battle with a purpose and a plan and will hedge wins against losses to win the higher battle. It's the more juvenile side of that, which is the hero aspect, which is just, I'm going to run headlong into the wall. Fuck it, I don't care. But there's a fight. I'm up. Hey, let's fight. It doesn't matter what it is, but hey, we're going to fight. And so personally, that's what I have to try to figure out and balance. And so all of us have these pulls on us in certain directions. None of us are fully evolved, none of it. So I can point at Trump and say, you know, you son of a bitch, but, you know, four other fingers are pointing back at me. I've got my own issues.

And really, really, in a way, don't you think that he reminds us of our deepest, darkest, scariest shadow as a humanity?

Yes. I mean, if you if you. And this is ages old. This is a union theme. And people, people have poo pooed this. But it's so true. If you see something in somebody else that you find reprehensible, guess what is inside of you that you're trying to repress. Yeah. And I think about that every time that I see him do or say something that I find reprehensible. I'm like, hold on a minute, bro. What is it in you that is causing that reaction that you're projecting on him? But getting back to your question of love and power, that is a balance and I wish I had an answer for that. I'm still trying to figure that out myself.

That's honest.

It starts with self love. Nothing can change and you can't express proper power in the world until you start with the self love element first. Otherwise it's going to squeeze out sideways and it's going to look like control, it's going to look like domination. And I know I just went through this last weekend. I just had a very intense plant medicine ceremony where all this was coming up inside of me. What is it that I am trying to accomplish by winning a fight, winning a war? And if you get down to it, get down to it, get down to it. I'm trying to dominate the demons in my own self. If I defeat you, I somehow have defeated or I've at least put a lid on the demons inside of myself. And where does that come from? There's some kind of self love that's missing there. I haven't figured that out yet. But you know, that's going to be another year long integration. And.

Thank you for this concept because it's the stacking of the bricks one at a time where, I mean, at this age with all the work that you both have done and look at what you do for a living, look at how you get to live. You get to have a conference where you bring together the brightest minds in the world and celebrate this wall, this self love wall. Every single person who's going to be there this year in some way, whether it's diet, nutrition, lifestyle, movement, economics, they're in some way giving people one break at a time to love themselves with different ways of thinking, different ways of being. You guys, like just so acknowledge and honor what you do in our world. Like, it gives me chills on my arms. Just to tell you right now, like, I'm so, I'm so proud that Wellness Force is partnered with you guys. I'm proud to be there, moderating. I'M proud to support you as a tribe because this is what we believe, too, that this discovering process of why we do what we do and how we can do it better, like, that's what gets me up every day. So thanks for coming on the show and I'd love for you both to tell everyone in your own words why they should come in less than three weeks, by the way, to Paleo in your own words, from the founder's message. Like, what are they going to receive? And we've explored a lot of it on the show.

Well, I would say, going back to your brick analogy, we will have a brick there for somebody. Maybe it's diet, maybe it's lifestyle, maybe it is consciousness, maybe it is relationship issues, maybe it's a mental tuck your game, habit change type of thing. But there's something there for everybody. There is some brick. There is something missing in your life that's holding you back from being an optimal human being. And we hope to give you an option, a palette of different choices to choose from. I don't know what it is, Josh. I don't know what it is for you. I kind of know what it is for me right now. I just kind of went over that a little bit. Hey, I've got the training and diet thing dialed in. I've got that dialed in. But there's a lot of other areas in my life where I'm floundering and I'm trying to pick it up and raise that side of it, too, because at the end of the day, I want to be an optimized human being to affect the world with the gifts that I have to elevate the world and leave the world a better place than what I came in as. And we hope to do that for every attendee who shows up at Paleo Effect.

Agreed. I would just say that for me, I don't think that there's anything more satisfying than to hear from someone how they came in and they met someone that changed their life. They get to meet Josh Trent, they got to meet Rob Wolf, Mark Sisson, Chris Kresser, Nora Gagaudis, Sarah Ballantyne, Tom o' Brien Perlmutter, all of these amazing people. Steven Guntry, who's changed my life. I think there's nothing more satisfying than coming in and being able to hear that from people. And for them to come in and say, this is a place where I felt like I came home. Like, I was with Tribe. I was with people who understood me. I was with people who got me. I was in A place where I felt normal, where I didn't feel like the weird person that constantly has to have their order at a restaurant. I'm a weird person because I carry my own butter and my own oil and my own salt. You know, all of these things. And so I think this is one of the things that's so funny. Josh, you and I have talked about Burning man personally and everything. And you know, when you get to Burning man, they tell you, welcome home. And I would say it would be the same thing at Pillow Effects. Welcome home because you're going to find where you belong and you're going to find the tribe that you and we. And one of the things that we say is come for the event, but stay for the tribe because you're not going to find a better one.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you guys for sharing that. And on your question, Keith, you were like, well, I don't know what it is for you, Josh. I'll tell you what it is. It's exactly the container you guys gave me to express myself in, because for the past four plus years, I've been doing this podcast as a way for me to grow as a human being. So actually moderating panels, being out there, being expressive, being my authentic self. That actually is the gift that you're both giving to me. So I know that people are inspired by this conversation. Get to Paleo fx. It's less than two weeks away when this episode comes out. What is the website? Where can people go?

Paleofx.com and you can go to our Facebook page, Paleo FX and everything. Instagram and Twitter is Paleofx P A L E O F as in Frank X. And yeah, we just are looking forward to seeing everybody in Austin soon. The weather's looking like it's gonna be really great.

Awesome.

And which that's one of the reasons why we love doing it in April. And we just think that it's how we also get people to move to Austin.

Anyway, well, you guys, thank you so much for coming to the show. It's actually gonna be my birthday on April 29, so after the show is done, maybe we can do a birthday celebration together.

Sounds good.

Yeah.

The whole tribe from Wellness Force is going to be there. Everyone that can make it. But as parting guidance, as always, I'd love for you both to just share what wellness means to you. What is your definition of wellness? Gosh, it's been 2012 to now. How do you define wellness, Keith?

Well, my definition of wellness is to put myself in a place to where I can help other people express their innate talents. I don't have a whole lot of talents, Josh, but I do have one superpower and I can make other people healthy. That is my superpower. I'm not the guy who's going to split the atom. I'm not going to solve quantum physics. I'm not going to do any of that. I'm the last person who's going to do that. But I may make the person who can do that healthy so that they can then flourish and not have to worry about poor health. The poor health that's dragging them down, not letting them express their talents. For me, that's what it is.

And I would say for me, our theme this year is challenge authority, Defy dogma, demand different. That, to me, is really true wellness. And I hope that everyone that comes to PaleoFX figures out if they're all three of those or what part of that they are. Because at the end of the day, those are all the things that we all as a society deal with. And I know we need to challenge the authorities that be in what they mandate or what they tell us. That is supposed to be the way. We need to not get caught up in everything that we believe. And we need to make sure that what we believe is always open to expanding and learning. And that's all about expansion of consciousness and expansion of heart and consciousness of mind and then demanding a different thing that we've got than right now. And we need to always make sure that we're always demanding different. No matter how much better it gets, it can always be better.

So our slogan this year has just a little bit of warrior aspect to it. Just a little. Just a little.

Well, that's great because we always identify with this warrior archetype, this wellness warrior archetype. Thank you guys so much for being on the show. I'm so thrilled to be there. I will see you in Austin very soon.

Yes. Thank you so much for having us.

Yeah, thanks, Josh. And we cannot wait to see you, the whole Wellness Force crew out there.

It's gonna be awesome. You guys, thanks for coming on. Hey, my friend, thank you for hanging out and growing with me today. Everything you learn on this podcast starts with your morning practices. So from over 200 world class guests and counting, we've distilled the gems, the best of the best science back practices down into a 21 minute morning system guaranteed to increase the positive flow in your day. Get this free and powerful 21 minute life changing system over@wellnessforce.com M21 if you enjoyed this episode, tap your phone. Share it with someone you care about because that is how we all get better together. Supporting the show is easy. Leave us a five star review right now from your phone. It helps us reach other smart and conscious people like you. Either tap your phone and hit the link in purple that says review this podcast or go to wellnessforce.com review. And this show doesn't stop here. We're continuing the discovering process in our private Facebook group. You can be a part of it. All you have to do is go to wellnessforce.com group and I'll welcome you at the door. Okay, now you get to go out into your world and live your life well. So until I see you again, again real soon, I'm wishing you love and wellness.