Alison Armstrong: THIS Is What Women Don't Understand About Men...

Starting with the point of view that a man should be like a woman. Then everything just falls naturally from there. When we started doing our workshops, it was called Celebrating Men Satisfying Women and just saying the name women would have a reaction. What's there to celebrate? They're all assholes. What we do to others, we do to ourselves. Like, one way to emasculate a man is to ignore him. Well, women do that with their own needs all the time. We're exhausted and we ignore it and keep going. I love that emasculation has become a conversation, because in 1991, when I gave it up, it was not. It wasn't something people talked about, and especially it wasn't something to not do. It was something to do. I know that we've gotten our work done when nobody thinks Everybody Loves Raymond is funny. Entire sitcom about emasculating a man, right?

Fuck the patriarchy. What do you think Claudia would say if she was alive right now in our society and she heard a group of women outside of a congress hall screaming and saying, fuck the patriarchy.

That the abuse of power is a human characteristic. It's not a male characteristic. Foreign.

It's been two years plus since you came on the podcast, and since then, I've been through a personal death and rebirth. I know you have, too. We killed the Wellness Force podcast, and now the podcast, which is perfect for you to be here for the second time on, is called Wellness and Wisdom, which is really what I feel from your work. 2013 is when Queen's Code came out. Now, the audiobook, why this grand space between the two? Like, what. What lit a fire in you to. And as you were recording it, you were very emotional at certain points. What lit the fire for you almost 10 years later to come out with the audiobook?

Well, people have been asking for it for a long time and wouldn't let anybody else read it. Right. I done the audio of Keys the Kingdom because the. The meaning, the emphasis, right. Everything was so important. And so I wouldn't let anybody else do it. And I just didn't. I don't know, I just wasn't compelled to do it. And then two years ago, a couple days before my birthday, and I. I don't know, I have these interesting conversations with. I don't know, you could call. Call it God, spirit, higher consciousness, Right? And I was sending a text to a man who wanted to date me, but he was. He was like writing it in now, you know, he was. He was going down. He was getting ready to die.

Wow.

Literally and you may remember my. My husband died three and a half years ago. And I. I did. I wanted to live. I didn't want to, like, coast into home, right? I want to steal home. And so. So I was sending him a text about that. We're not compatible. We're going two different directions, you know, and. And I'm up to something. And then I stopped and was like, wait a second, what am I up to? What am I supposed to do next? And there's some kind of intention I have when I ask questions like that because they're always answered and they're always answered very quickly. And I heard Claire Isabel make the most of the Queen's Code. And I. I was. Oh. And then I was. And this happened so often. It was. I was d. Right. Because, I mean, I researched for over 15 years to be able to write the Queen's Code. And then. And then I didn't write it, which is another part of the story. I didn't write the Queen's Code. But then. And then, you know, we sold it to a pub, you know, big publisher, and they were going to make a mess of it. So, unheard of. I took the manuscript back, I gave them their money back. And then on my 50th birthday, I asked, right, like, this time, I wrote it down. Find the best possible way for the widest possible distribution of the Queen's coat.

Yeah.

And within a few minutes, I was given an entire schematic.

Just like, who gave it to you?

Well, it occurred like it was coming down, like the words at the beginning of the original Star Wars. And this wasn't the first time this had happened. This was the third time this had happened in my life. So I wasn't totally freaked out. I just wrote it all down. And it took us two years to implement it and a ton of money we didn't have. But we published it a week at a time on the Internet along with me interacting with the people who are reading it. And honestly, Josh, we were so provincial, if you will, at the time. Our website didn't even have a place to put in country, right? It just had city, state and zip code. And when I would look and see who had bought the Queen's Code after we launched it, I'd have to Google where is, where is, where is? Because there were all these cities I'd never heard of. And I mean, remember the question, right? Was the find the way for the widest possible distribution. In three weeks, it was being read in 70 countries.

I mean, that's just Astronomical to even. People talk about getting cosmic downloads, which I kind of make fun of. Cosmic downloads or like, you know, the code. The code is actually something that you were first on scene about. I feel like right now, in our world of growth, of relationship, of connection, people, a lot of spiritual leaders, they use the word code. But honestly, you were the first person. You were the first person back when I started my journey of like, who am I? What do I do? Why am I here? That actually used the word code and the Queen's Code. Yes. You wrote it with the intention of, you know, helping women, but also helping men. You know, and as I was listening to the audiobook myself, I was like, light bulbs going off, like, oh, yes, that's. That's also for me, like all the archetypes and the stories. When you say that you didn't write it, who did? Who actually wrote this thing? You were like a instrument for whatever was coming through. Was it like an Eat Pray Love moment?

I don't know about the story of that. I just know. So the prequel to the Queen's Code is Keys of the Kingdom. And I call it the prequel because the book that I was supposed to write, which when I wrote it and published the way I was told to, for the first time since I was a little girl, I relaxed. Like, I stopped, like, feeling like there was this promise I had made that I hadn't kept yet, and I had to keep it no matter what. And I know lots of people have that sense, and they also are upset because they can't remember what they promised. There's something important I supposed to do. And, yeah, some people come with a mission and some people don't. And when I republished the Queen's Code was when I finally relaxed and I. And it just had happened. And I realized, oh, my gosh, that was my promise. I was supposed to do that. But on the way to trying to write the Queen's Code, I learned so much about men. But I knew I wasn't ready for the book yet, so. So I wrote Keys of the Kingdom and I had an outline for Keys the Kingdom. I knew it was about the stages of development. I knew it was fiction because I already knew Queen's Code is fiction. And. But just like the Queen's Code, which I didn't count on it happening again, right? I didn't. I just didn't count on it. It seemed like a silly thing to count on, but same thing happened. So I can't really lift my right shoulder right now. I slipped on some black ice A few days ago. So up here. So it's like right here. So looking up into my. Right, this screen opens and. And a movie place. And it. I mean, it's so much like a movie. Like I can check in. So what's happening now? And I get like trailers for the sequel to the Queen's Code. They show me what's been happening and it's. I mean, it's. I never believed in channeling. I don't like that word. It seems weird because it doesn't feel like it comes through me. Like, I don't know, like some channel. It's more like I turn into a channel, I tune into a channel and that's where the movie's playing. And the only way that I know it's not an illusion, right, is I typed Keys of the Kingdom, which is 45,000 words. I typed it in eight days. The Queen's Code, which is 96,000 words. I typed it up in three weeks. You can't write a 96,000 word book in three weeks. Authors anguish over these things for a year or more. Um, I couldn't have done it. And I didn't. Like you talk about the characters. I didn't decide who they were. I didn't just decide who they are.

Like the names were given to you as well. Like the Kimberly and the Claudia and everything that was all given to you.

I had to keep feeling into it a lot, like with my children, like what's their name? What's their name? And. And some things resemble my life. Like what happened to Kimberly when she found out she was a frog farmer? That happened to me.

Yeah.

I didn't have a Claudia though. After I found out I was a frog farmer, a question popped into my head. Another wondering where did the questions that pop into our head pop in from the question what if men are responding to women? And so many questions since then. Like, what if there's a good reason for everything we do? What if no one's misbehaving, including you? Honor yourself first or all is lost. These things all just pop out and I used to take credit for them. I used to think it was me and I was so smart and I just can't anymore.

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Wow. You just asked a lot and said a lot. So. Okay. Just because I'm such an accuracy person, so near as I can tell. And the stages of development were one of the first things we distinguished when I was studying men. It starts actually when you're born as what I call a page. And you can see it even in the tiniest men. There's this. This need, this need to develop abilities, test abilities. Right. Which is often in. In competing with other men. Right. And then there's the looking up to the knights in shining armor. You know, I want to be that. Right. And so, yeah, so pages, then knights, then princes, then kings, and then the. The tunnel.

That's right. That's right, the tunnel. I forgot about the tunnel. It's episode 364, y', all, and it was September 2020. Allison and I went deep into what the tunnel is. So we'll focus on what you're talking about with the development. We'll link that in the show notes our previous podcast. I want to tell you 75,000 people watched or heard us on that episode since the 20th of September. So your vision that you received to reach so many people, it has happened and then some, but. But I digress. Please go back to the stages and everything else.

So the tunnel, right, where everything is being questioned and challenged. And then the other side of the tunnel, king, which in chapter seven of the Queen's Code, they're talking about K. And how come they have so many more opinions? Because opinions are. Start from the self, right? It's. It's your values, your clarity about yourself, plus the information you trust. And kings have this solid sense of who they are and it's hard won. And then what you talked about, which is why I'm bringing this in, is a small percentage become elders. Most men live out their lives as kings. There's a few, and they often end up in the news. There are a few emperors, right? Yeah. And emperors. Emperors want to dominate other kings, right? There's. There's no fun in dominating a prince, right. They want to dominate, find the, like, the strongest other men they can find and beat them. And it's very primitive way of doing life and not exactly what the world needs now, but it happens. But a small percentage become what, you know, what I was just told are called Elders. And one way that one of my mentors expressed it was that elders are beyond ambition. And it's actually a stunning place to be. And I didn't know women could go through the tunnel till I discovered I had. Right. And I, I told you about it. I heard myself talking like a king. Well, I'm not interested in that. No, I'm not gonna spend any time on that. I'm not interested in that. I'm like, oh, my gosh. That's how kings talk. Well, it was about two years ago, I found myself talking like an elder. And. Whoa. How did that happen? Right? And. And elders. It's something else that happens in Chapter 7 of the Queen's Code. Elders have very few things they're willing to take accountability for, and they stop giving advice to people because they don't want to be accountable for that person's results. So instead of, you should do. They're like, well, you might think about. You might consider. There's a book you might want to check into. There's. There's a complete. I'm not taking responsibility for this. And, and it's interesting. It's softer. Right. But the, the thing about elders is, if you don't ask them what they think, they're not going to tell you. They know. It's a waste of breath. But I appreciate the compliment. And, and I, I, I will own that.

And, and it came through two years for you very strongly that, that this was an emanation of self, the elder archetype inside of you.

Yeah, it's. Well, I think it also has to do with what we're pursuing and, or for me, it's, it's never been a pursuit. It's more internal. It's an, it comes from the inside out. It's an expression. I can't not express it. And I've, you know, thanked my graduates who, you know, tens of thousands of them, just that showed up to live workshops for so many years that if they hadn't done that, I would have had to stand on a street corner shouting till I was hoarse or hauled away. And yes, because it's just. It was such an astonishing thing to find out. So, I mean, I really. Now that you've listened to, to the Queen's Code, and you can hear the intensity, which is what happened. Right. So make the most of the Queen's Code. Oh, I've got to record the audiobook and. Which is not an easy thing to do living in the boonies. And it's part of how I ended up In Steamboat Springs. Dan found a studio here for me to record it. And you can hear in Melissa, in her voice, the venom in her voice, right? How, how truly, truly pissed she is at her husband. And I, I was Melissa. I, I, I started there, I was Melissa and then evolved into Kimberly finding out I was a frog farmer. I was, I was Karen. I, I did. I never expected to end up being Claudia, though. That was a surprise. And, and by the way, Josh, a surprise in recording the audiobook because, I mean, I, I typed the book as fast as I could and every day until I was exhausted. And then I would just stop and get up in the morning and edit the mess of my typing. And then by the time I was done editing what I'd done the day before, I be like, okay, and I look up and bam, the movie would just pick up.

Heard of this before. This, this, this inspiration that has no name, just a presence. And the reason I reference Eat Pray Love is because I think we've all had these moments of flow, but you're talking about something way different. To be able to literally write your fingers to the bone. Did you ever have a moment during that where you had like an out of body experience, though? This is an ultra flow state, right? This is a true, an actual true cosmic down. And you wrote it so quickly. Did anything change from 2012 with the original version of Queen's code to the audiobook? Did you edit anything? Was it the exact same thing? Like, what was new, what was refreshed?

Well, that's what was crazy. And thanks for getting it, by the way. So when I was doing the audiobook, just recreating the movie I had watched, I kept having to do these retakes and it took me a while to figure out the pattern. And it was when Claudia was speaking and I was reading her part. And I, I'm not a voiceover actor, but I couldn't not change my voice to, I don't know, just to, to be true to them, as true to them as I could be. And when I would read her parts, it, they didn't feel right. Like that. No, that wasn't it. And so I just tell my producer again, and then I'd read it again and it still didn't feel right. Well, after a while, I realized it was taking four times to get it right because right was different than I heard it back in 2009, 2010. Right. Claudia changed. And I like, how can you change? We captured you on film and in writing. How can you change? She did. She's more compassionate. She's more intense, she's more playful. And even like the joke she made about being jump started like me, she's just. Yeah, there's just so much more dimension to her. And as I was reading the book out loud, I. I kept thinking, oh, my gosh, this is so much more intense than the written book and. And so much more intense than. Than probably anybody read the book to themselves. And then I got confirmation. Her name is Candace, and she does a podcast out of Johannesburg, South Africa. And she. We were talking about the Queen's Code, and she said. And it so shocked me. I can't. I have to paraphrase. I can't remember it exactly, which happens to my audio memory when I'm shocked. Otherwise, it's amazing. And she said. She said. I really. I realized, Allison, that I read the men's parts with less sincerity and emotion than you do. And I realized it's because of my prejudice against men that I don't think they can be like that. And then I realized, oh, my gosh, all the people who've read the Queen's Code since we published it in 2012. I know, I know. Amazon says 2013 because that's when we gave it to them.

Okay, so it was 10 years. It's been 10 years.

It was. It was 10 years. And I. I realized that probably almost everybody who's read the book to themselves from a print version, right. Or the ebook has read it through their own filters. How that would sound, Right? That is as much as there were descriptors in the writing that they could only put in what they would think. Right? And I don't know if the sequel. I'm even gonna publish it in print. I know what anyone. To end up with less.

Well, this is why what you and I are doing is so potent. Because when you hear something versus when you read it, it's a different stimuli. It sticks to your soul in a different way. It's a different experience. There's a. There's an energy to your voice at many times. And there was actually a couple parts in there where I could feel your vocal cords twisting and shaking in a different way. Like, this is an emotional experience for you. And I want to go back because you had said that you're one of your readers or one of the podcast hosts in South Africa. She was putting her own bias as she was. She was experiencing the Queen's Code. Was it. Was it emasculation? We touched on this a tiny bit two years ago, but I want to go deeper about that, because I think it's an overused phrase. And with your experience and your lectures and all the people you've taught about this. Emasculation is a very large topic. Was that her filter of how she had been subconsciously trained by maybe her parents or society to emasculate men? And what actually is that for women as a whole?

Well, first of all, I love that emasculation has become a conversation, because in 1991, when I gave it up, it was not. It was. It was something a man might say to his wife or his girlfriend, you know, in a very vulnerable moment. But it. It wasn't a conversation. It wasn't something people talked about. And especially. It wasn't something to not do. It was something to do. I mean, their whole. Somebody said. My nephew actually said, I'll know. I'll know. We've gotten our work done. She's. He used to run our company. I know that. We've gotten our work done. When nobody thinks Everybody Loves Raymond is funny and entire sitcom about emasculating a man. Right. And so the thing that I would just do an adjustment with Josh, and what you said about being taught by your parents or trained by your culture, it begins where Claudia begins in the Queen's code, with perception. And. And that's what's so awesome about it. Because when you. You're pers. What we perceive is given by where we're perceiving from. Right. So one way to say it is, you know, you're standing at. You check into a hotel, you're standing on the balcony, and. And what you can see is what you can see from that balcony. And most women's balconies are on the dumpster side of the hotel. And they can't see. They can't see the magnificence of men. They can't see the generosity. They can't see the vulnerability. They can't see the sensitivity. And I know because I couldn't. I could not. I literally thought, questioned if men had souls. I knew you didn't have feelings, and so I didn't have to worry about hurting them. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. Oh, God. I. Now I'm convinced men feel more deeply than women do, but with much more intensity. And so. Yeah, but starting with the. The point of view that a man should be like a woman, then everything just falls naturally from there. And that's why we have to change that point of view. If someone keeps thinking a man should be like a woman, but, oh, if I use these words that these stupid men need to hear, you know, then it'll all work out. No, you all are too perceptive. You're too sensitive. You know, when something's baloney and you see being, men see being. And, and so can women and children. And, and it's, it's the universal language. How is someone being. And that's why Claudia is working so hard in the Queen's code. She can't just give them the words. They have to transform how they're being in. And transforming how they're being comes from transforming how they see men. And just the fact that they now can see men. And I used to articulate my work like that a lot, that all I was doing was making it so women could see and hear men. Because you have been attempting to represent yourself forever and mansplaining. Oh, he's mansplaining.

Or even the phrase toxic masculinity. And, and like you mentioned Raymond there, why are women in the hotel? Why do they face the dumpster? What is that? Why do you say that?

We don't know. There's another side of the hotel.

And where does that come from? Like what's the underlying, what's the underlying lesson there? Or what's the underlying cause there? I mean, it's such a deep metaphor.

I think it's quite primitive like, like pre language in, in the evolution of human beings that we couldn't ask somebody else what they needed, so we would be self referential, like what would I want? And, and then they must want what I want. They must be like me and, and Josh. Men have a version of this. You're just more generous. Like once I was telling a small group of young men, they're so funny. They were in a college class together and I said, you know, when women look at men, they see, they see hairy women. They seem hairy. Women who are misbehaving and they know the right thing to do, but they're doing something else entirely and they should be punished for it. And you know, so when a woman looks at a man, she sees a hairy, misbehaving woman and he just popped out, he goes, so like when a man looks at a woman, he sees a scattered, emotionally indulgent man. It's like, yeah, yeah, except women are working so hard not to need men. So we're not going to give you any slack. Right? But as Claudia points out in the Queen's code, men aren't trying to not need women. And, and there are, there are Will Spencer of the renaissance of Men has told me there is a small group of men who are working very hard to not need women for anything. And. But mostly men would consider that just a foolish thing. Why would we work on not needing them? Let's work on getting more of what we need from them.

That doesn't sound very fun, actually, to. To have a life like that. I mean, and all of these, There's. There's so many threads in what you're saying that connect to, like you had said, maybe primal, prehistoric, like thousands of years ago that were still unfolding. So to go back to the balcony and the dumpster and the emasculation, what is it like, what triggers women to emasculate? Men?

Primarily fear and secondary frustration. And then the fear that, well, what we're frustrated about, we'll never get what we need. But it's. It's something we try to illuminate in our understanding women course online. And I don't know if you ever saw that free. There's a free half hour right on our homepage, and I've left it there for years now. Men don't understand or. It's really, really hard to conceive of. First of all, a brain that's wired differently, so we don't even have the same vision. Men and women don't literally do not perceive and process information the same way.

And then.

Add to that, you all completely take for granted how strong you are. I mean, you. You really do take it for granted. It's nothing. And that strength that you have, as you rarely be concerned about your physical safety, especially your physical safety from an outside source. Like, you know, my son, who Rock claims does things to ensure his physical safety, and he may have some concerns, right? But one man said, like, well, yeah, I was going to visit my grandma, and I was early, so I pulled up in front of a convenience store and rolled down the window and went to sleep. The women gasped when we heard that. We would never do that. Do you know how dangerous that is? Um, and it had me start noticing how men can fall asleep anywhere and women, even in our own homes. There are usually only a couple places we can fall asleep where we feel safe and secure enough to let go like that to sleep.

You're so right on. Sometimes I walk around the house and Carrie, Michelle, my partner, she'll be like, you scared me. I'm like, really? I scared you? I just, like, don't. And even if I'm walking slowly, so you're right on point. I've never actually pieced that together. To the brain.

My boyfriend, when he comes over, there's a. Like a Tibetan meditation bell hung outside of my little house. And he rings it on purpose because he's so quiet.

That's such a good idea.

Yeah. Like hear this little ding, ding, ding. And it's like, oh, goody. Dance here. And yeah, it. But even, like, raising your voice, we have a very primitive reaction to a man raising his voice. Raise your hand, raise your voice, then your hand comes next. That's what we think. Even if. Even if we've never had a hand raised against us, we still have that reaction to a raised voice. And it. What it does to our nervous system and who we can be. And depending on every. Let's see. Okay, how do I go here? Fight, flight and freeze. So some emasculation is a fight response. Criticism. Criticism is a fight response to being afraid or frustrated or both. Right. Withdrawing, which is also. Can also be emasculating to a man for a woman that he loves and who needs her attention or admiration, her encouragement, even to be useful to her, he needs her to meet him. A woman withdrawing is a kind of emasculation. And so when we flee and. And even freezing and you can't, you know. Is something wrong? No. Are you okay? Fine. Yeah. So we can get out, right? That now we're withholding quality information, which diminishes your ability to produce results. If we said what we're upset about, right, you'd be empowered. Then you can do something about it. So there's all kinds of ways that we emasculate. And as I'm sure you picked up in listening to the Queen's code, men emasculate men all the time. It's part of doing battle. Of course you're going to diminish the other guy's ability to produce results. When he's your adversary, of course you're going to take him out. Of course you're. You're going to diminish his power. Duh. Right? But all of this would be fine, except for what most human beings are saying is we want a higher quality of life. We want more intimacy, more love, more caring, more empowerment. Right? To fulfill, not just surviving, but to thrive, to accomplish, to contribute. Emasculation has always worked perfectly well until we wanted a quality of life that. That makes impossible.

How do women justify emasculation? I mean, if it's something that's running on a subconscious level, then no woman would ever want to do that, right? I mean, unless there's like an evil Spirit there working its way like a Watiko or something.

But, but why Dr. Watiko?

Well, how do women justify this, the emasculation?

Well, it's interesting. So when I, I knew I started studying men in 1991, by 1992, I knew I needed to write a book. Yep. And I, and soon found out it had to be fiction because people can learn better when they're not on the spot. And then, but I knew I didn't know how to write it and, and I didn't know, you know, I was going to get to type up a movie. But everything in the Queen's Code is validated by years of research because I, I had to find out several things. I had to find out all the ways that women emasculate men. Long list. Right. So I had to find that out and I had to find out all the ways they were triggered so what caused women to do it. And then lastly I had to find out all the ways they justified it. So those three things I needed a thorough education in before I knew I was able to write the Queen's Code. And I didn't expect it to take almost 20 years before I knew I could do it. And so, so justifying it. Oh my gosh. So we justify masculating by you keep misbehaving. We're really sure you know the right thing to do and that you're doing something else because you're immature or because you don't feel like it or you don't care about us or we think, you know what we know and we think we know the right thing to do. So yeah, there's a lot of arrogance that our way is the right way and even when we can't live up to our own right way, it's still the right way. That's, you know, the tyranny of the perfect person. And then, and then women will justify, they'll have different flavors of justifying. Like my mother justified emasculating men because men are stupid. And that's what that was her opinion of men. Men are stupid. A friend of mine justified emasculating men because they, they're more powerful than women and they use their power against us. Other people justify, they think men are lazy, they think men are self centered which is part of what's getting cleared up in chapter six of the Queen's Code. That men appear selfish because you don't find out what you need until the breaking point.

Yeah.

And then it's me, me, me, me, and, and we think that's Terrible. We don't know what causes it. That up to that moment, you're so focused on producing results, probably for us, that you don't notice you're starving, right? So all these different reasons, all these different flavors. Men are weak, stupid, insensitive, lazy, selfish, self centered, dominating, aggressive, mean.

What is the way that women identify? And I'm sure that men have a laundry list too. This isn't a podcast about making women wrong, okay? I want to be clear about that, y', all, because there's a lot of women with us here. Like, this is for our education, for our empowerment, for our growth, for our love. Is there a way that a woman can identify these stories, these beliefs, these programs, these biases? How does a woman even get to that place where she can. I realize, oh, my God, my mom hates women. My mom hates men. My mom has always hated men. How do they even get into that process? I mean, that seems like the starting place.

I mean, you have an excellent point. When we started doing our workshops, it was called Celebrating Men Satisfying Women. And just saying the name, women would have a reaction to celebrating men. Ah, what's there to celebrate? They're all assholes, right? And from time to time, a woman would go, you can do that. I want to know how to do that. However you do that, I want to know how to do that. And those were our customers. And it, in answer to your question of how can you know, how you justify it? Think of giving up the right to steal men's power. Think of giving up the right to. To diminish them in any way, to take them out, to slow them down, right? To take the wind out of their sails, to have them be less than who they can be. And think about giving up the right to do that. Think about not ever doing it again, and notice what shows up. And for me, when I was asked to stop castrating men, I been studying them for six months at that time. And my reaction, she said, she pointed out all the ways she'd seen me emasculate men. And then she said, I want you to stop. And my instant reaction was, well, then, how will I protect myself? So that reaction that Kimberly had, right, how will I protect myself? That was mine. And that's one of the. One of the ways that, I mean, I could see when I be. When I took on becoming an expert at emasculating men was when I was frightened and hurt by a man and 16 years old. But I didn't know that. I decided men are bigger and stronger and they'll hurt you. And the best offense, the best defense is a good offense. That's what my stepdad used to say. The best defense is a good offense. And so I went on the offense. Hand him over, and then we'll talk. And I was very aggressive. Emasculator. I used everything. Everything.

What was one of the worst ones that you used back in the day?

Oh, God, there's so many worst ones, Josh.

What was one of the bad ones?

So one of the things that women aren't responsible for, and I had no clue, is how much sexual attraction can put a man off balance. So when you have a strong physical response to someone, you. You're not grounded anymore. You're on. You're. You're on tilt, right? You're on tilt. And that was something I became really sensitive to, to putting men off balance. Because in my view, if you were off balance, you couldn't attack. Right? You get. You can't attack from. From. From being an untelt. Not unless you're, you know, martial arts master, which most men aren't. In the face of women's sexuality.

Yes. That's why Superman had kryptonite. Sometimes women can be kryptonite for men. Oh, my God, I can't even walk.

Exactly. Exactly.

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I could feel if I flirted with men, if I used, as I was exposed to at home, between my mother, my stepfather, a lot of sexual innuendo. I thought that was a normal thing for people to do. It would put men off balance. I also, I also, I, I also was smart, right? And I'm a wordy and I could tangle men up in their words and make them feel stupid and, and, but probably the worst. And I told Will Spencer about this and he made me tell it in. In his podcast. I used, I did this thing because I really was especially pissed at jocks because I usually fell in love with jocks. I was in love with, with swimmers or with soccer players or baseball players or football players.

Oh, boy. That was. I was a football player.

You were a football player. Okay. Yep, yep. Captain of the football team. And so to, So I was especially vulnerable to them, to their physical physicality, to their vitality, to their perception of strength. So the perception of strength is what causes chemistry in women. Right. The perception of fertility is what causes chemistry in men. And so athletes would put me off balance, which then would especially want me to put them off balance. Right. I had young men in high school who were my friends. I didn't emasculate them, but I wasn't attracted to them and I wasn't afraid of them, right? So I did. Those are the people I didn't emasculate, but get attracted. And women do this all the time. I say, don't date your type. It's going to bring out the worst in you because we're thrown off by the attraction. And so then we may come after you because of it. And so I Did this thing where I was at a party and everybody's drinking beer. And at the time that I was doing this, I, I taken a bet to not drink. You know, I was 17 years old. Someone bet me I could not drink for a month. So I wasn't drinking. So I had a beer bottle that I filled with water because I got tired of people asking me why I wasn't drinking. And I walked up to these young men who I thought were just like the epitome, well, that means average, but nobody knows it. They, they just, they embodied what pissed me off, right. And I just wanted to take them off their cocky position about who they were and had no idea how truly insecure they were. And the cocky stance is just.

It'S.

Like putting up a shield. But I would walk up with my beer and say, and they'd be holding a beer and I'd say, could you hold this? And they'd be sure. And so they take my beer. Now they had two beers and a snap shirt on. This is the late 70s, cowboy snapshirts. And I would grab the bottom and rip the shirt open. And the first time I did it, I thought he'd be like, oh yeah. Like, oh yeah, look at my chest. No, caved, like what? Couldn't grab his shirt because he had two beer bottles. Just mortified. Oh, I thought that was awesome. So I did it again and again. I don't think it was my worst, but it's definitely the most embarrassing.

What was the wisdom that your 17 year old self was calling in that now you know, as an elder, from that moment.

Oh, inter. Okay, say that again.

So when you were 17, there was a lesson unfolding that you know now in full clarity as an elder. And I'm curious what you feel like that lesson was that your 17 year old self was setting herself up for.

Well, the best story I can see that Josh, is in what I taught my daughters from the time they were little, like Claire in the first grade. And Claire walking into a room was like the sun coming out. And so boys, that much life force boys responded to from the very beginning. And in the first grade they had the practice that a lot of public schools do where you put your chairs up at the end of the day so that the, the crew can vacuum, right? And then you come in in the morning, you take your chairs down. And so the boy who sat next to her would take down and put up her chair. And, and when she told me about this, I was like, okay, Claire, it's, it's important you be especially kind to him. Why? Well, because he's providing for you. And him providing for you comes from how he is about you. And, and that makes him especially sensitive to you. And so you don't have to put up with something that doesn't work for you. And if there's something you need him to stop doing, ask him kindly and, and be sure to thank him just like, oh, okay, Mom. And. And then later on, I think she was about nine when she asked me this question and the answer was the effects of attraction. And I, I said there's a couple different ways that boys can be attracted to girls. One way they're attracted has them want to give to her and take care of her and protect her and contribute to her. Like, remember the boy who took your chair down in the first grade? And she's like, yeah, O said there's another way of being attracted that has a boy want to take from a girl. And she literally shuddered. She was just like, oh, I know what you're talking about. Ew, ew, ew. And it's one of the things that, that men and women don't know that when a man encounters his type of right or even not as tight, but a woman who's exuding a lot of sexual and sensual energy, it can, it can just make you hungry or you may already be hungry, and it has her occur like the perfect refrigerator. And, and it create, it creates a take energy. It's very primitive. And it's why I coach women. Do not lead with your sexuality and your sensuality. You're going to bring out the worst in men. They, you and then you're going to think it's them. You're going to think that's who he is. You're inciting a riot and you think they're rioters. And it, it's something that. To be responsible for. Like men, you guys can do the same thing. When you get yourself all snazzied up and you're leading with your A game, you, you can cause all kinds of attraction in women and you can literally bring out the worst in women because they're so off balance. They, they won't be honest, they won't be themselves. They're trying to recover their balance and their response can very well be to attack you.

How did that lesson work out for Claire?

Oh, my gosh, she's. She's one of my best students. She is exceedingly happily married to a man who she met on a dating app. And, and they talked a lot on the phone. And then they met. And I found out later his reaction when he first met her. We can swear, right? I already said yeah. Oh yeah, okay, good. I believe in truth. So what I found out later, he, when he first met her, he thought, oh, I could really care about this girl. And which is the thing that I try to teach women. To care. To care is the biggest expenditure of energy for a man. And it's, I've talked to men about love versus care. They say care is bigger and, and to be free is to not care is what many, many people, you know, to not care is to be carefree. Yeah, I don't want to care. And so to meet somebody that you're like, oh, you care about her. And then he had this whole plan, right? We're going to, so we'll date for at least a year and then we'll, and then we'll can move in together and then we'll move, we'll live together for at least a year and then we can get engaged. Well, they moved in at six months and six months later he proposed to her. And, and I teased him about it. And he goes, well, my plans always turned out before. And I said, well, meeting someone you're not willing to live without can change everything.

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah. And he went, oh yeah.

I love, I love the stories that you tell. And, and I love how you said that fiction makes people feel like they're not on the spot. I really like that. I've never thought about that before because, you know, back in the days, the olden days when there was a shaman and somebody was sick in the village, they would go to the shaman and the shami would say, well, when did you stop dancing? When did you stop telling stories, hearing stories? When did you stop admiring the mystery of life? And when did you stop spending time with yourself? It would be those four things that, you know, all the Native American shamans and even over in Peru and across the world would ask, and I think it's so interesting that you teach through story that it allows men and women to not feel on the spot, which would essentially trigger their nervous system. That may spark more emasculation or more off kilter behavior. Like you'd mentioned, if you were to wave a magic wand, I know you don't have one, or maybe you do. If you were to wave a magic wand over the minds of women and of course men, we have our work too. I'm going to repeat that again. What would, what would you instill? What chips, what information would you put in There. That would be a lifetime of work for women to do on just this subject of emasculation.

Dang, Josh. It would be everything that's in the Queen's Code.

All right. Yeah. You got to get the Queen's Code. Okay. We're going to link in the show notes right below where you're watching.

Don't just read it. Listen to it.

Read the Queen's Code, actually. Yes. Listen to it, because the story is. The story is amazing.

Yeah, it's. It's. I. I've been listening to it because I. I'm doing something called the Queen's Code Journey, which I'll do again because I really wanted to be there for people while. While they were listening to it, because it's so intense. And you were right when you said you could hear it in my voice. There were times I broke down when I was.

You had to stop recording.

I had to. I had to. I. I was sobbing. There are times when I was sobbing. And, I mean, it starts with, what if men aren't supposed to be like women? And then that when a man doesn't do what a woman would do, we take it personally. We think he would do what a woman would do if he cared about us enough or loved us enough or respected us enough. What if that's not true? And then noticing the impulse to diminish a man's power, a man's ability, and why we think we need to do that. And then notice, does emasculation actually work? And that was the thing that helped me and helped Kimberly to give it up, to recognize that causing a man to experience rage or fury, which emasculation can do, never makes you safer. Never makes you safer. So once we figure out it doesn't work, then we can start getting curious about what would work. And you mentioned this at the beginning, Josh. I did. I wrote it in order to transform the way women relate to men. And one of the things I'm the most tickled by is how much it's changing the way men relate to themselves. And. And ultimately, if a man can understand what triggers a woman to emasculate, you all don't have to agree to be emasculated if you cannot take it personally. If you can see fear. If you can see fear, instead of, you know, this is coming after me. If you can see she's terrified. This is a fear biter. So they call it amongst dogs, right? There's aggressive dogs, and then there's fear biters. And so many women are fear biters. And if we can. If you can know that, right? And then just hold your ground. When a woman's going through what she's going through, right. And keep. Be. Keep being you. You being you has us feel the safest when we look over and you're still you, Right. There's a lot we can deal with when we see that. And we. We know we're full of shit. We really do. And when you guys buy it, then we're bummed when you don't buy it.

That's such an ultimate paradox. But it is. So I feel like you're speaking to my soul right now, Alison.

We're bummed. We're truly bummed when you buy.

Yes.

Because when you don't buy it, the best way to put it is then we know you can save us from our worst enemy. Because we know we're our worst enemy. We know the crap in our head, that perfect person, how we're supposed to be in all turnout. We know it's crap. We just are equipped always to deal with it on our own. And so when your guys are like, I'll give me a break, right? Like. Like Mike, when he's talking to Karen about lingerie, right? And that the only need he'd given up on was her wearing lingerie and. And that her opinion about her body that had her be unwilling to wear lingerie. Give me a break, right? We need that from you.

Yeah. There's so much here. And it expands to a collective level. You know, I. And I've mentioned this before, so the audience is gonna be like, josh, we've heard this. But I'm like, you gotta hear it again because this is the perfect moment. Carl Jung said that no trees, branches can touch heaven unless its roots can go to hell. So I think that we're in this kind of snake eating its tail. We're. We're figuring out how to love and care for one another. Men and women, human beings. What do you think Claudia would say? What wisdom. And for those of you that haven't read the Queen's code, you're getting it now. So just click right below the video. The grandmother, the elder wisdom that Claudia was providing. What do you think Claudia would say if she was alive right now in our society and she heard a group of women outside of a congress hall screaming and saying, the patriarchy. What do you think wisdom would be from Claudia around that statement?

People try to talk to me about the patriarchy. I poke holes in it. I know I would say that the abuse of power is a Human characteristic. It's not a male characteristic. And when women start taking responsibility for how we abuse power, I'll take it more seriously the accusations of patriarchy. But I don't believe in it. And what has me not believe in it is if you look at how recently. I mean, we're Talking less than 150 years ago, women were property.

No voting. Men could abuse women. Yes.

Property. Claudia talks about it in chapter five, that. That obviously a wife's right to say no to her husband about sex was. Was a huge thing to win. Well, guess who had to grant it to us? Who. Who gave us the right to vote? Who gave us the right to. To. To own property? Who. Who straightened out all the credit baloney that I knew about in the 60s where my mother could not have a credit card in her own name? Right. Who. Who's hired so many female CEOs to run companies that weren't started by women? Men care so much more about the result than whether the person producing the result has an innie or an outie. They. They care about results. They care about respect, they care about loyalty. And it's one of the ethics that women don't know how much we exist, exhibit disloyalty in the workplace and expect to be promoted when. When we haven't provided the thing that gives someone the most confidence in being able to do that.

And what is that? What is that thing?

It's you got my back. You're. You're loyal. I'll. I'll take you with me because I know you got my back. You're on my team. We keep being adversarial. We think I'll get the promotion if I make my boss look stupid. That's how I get his job. I make him look stupid?

No.

Yeah, you help him look brilliant. He gets a promotion and he says, you should take my job. Why? Because he wants you in that job. Because he still needs you to make him look brilliant and help him be brilliant. And it's. It's the. The shift, really. It's so much more than gender, Josh, because human beings are inherently competitive. It's part of our instincts is to compete against each other. And then we'll have these temporary alliances. Right? Against the perception of a common threat, whether it's a tiger or a nation. Right? And so we'll. We'll have these temporary alliances when we have a common enemy, but once the condom. An enemy is gone, we go back to treating each other like they're the enemy. And we don't. I mean, this was normal, given that there wasn't enough, right? There wasn't enough to go around, or at least it seemed like that. But these instincts persist, even though the conditions of our existence are so different. And a lot of my work, this, these days, Josh, isn't about gender. It isn't about male and female. It's about being human and owning our instincts, owning our fight, flight, and freeze responses, owning our relationship to power, and we're as likely to abuse it as anything else. Owning our sense of entitlement and that there are people we think we have a right to take what we need and want from. We all do, whether it's from our children or the opposite sex or our parents or employees or employer. It's part of being human.

At some point here, before we say goodbye. And like I've been getting waves from my feet to my head, so I know it's a good podcast. At some point, before we say goodbye, I am going to bring it back around to initially, what I had mentioned in the beginning, which was the language of heroes. So we're going to bookmark that. Let's stay on the thread because I know people are with us right here. When you talked about emasculation, there's a counterpoint in men, which is objectification. And so I, I do want to get your insight on that, because those things can be brother, sister, interplay a little bit. So if. If men being emasculated is what tears down the fabric of a man's soul or of a man's being objectification, like you had even mentioned before when you spoke to the little one, hey, sometimes boys want to take, sometimes they want to give. Can you talk a little bit about objectification? Because it's the opposite mirror for men.

So funny, Josh. Sometimes I can speak generally, and there's something about you that I have to be really specific. So one way to look at it is if you think of emasculation as not just something that happens to men. Right. If you think of emasculating as diminishing someone's ability to produce results. That's how one man defined it, and I got it in my bones. Yeah, Diminish my ability to produce results. So when you look at it this way, women, we diminish our own ability to produce results, and we diminish other women's ability to produce results. And so it's not. It's something diminishing each other's and our own abilities to produce results is normal. And what we do to others, we do to ourselves. Like, one way to emasculate a man is to ignore him, to treat him like he's not worth noticing. He's not important enough to be worth noticing. Well, women do that with their own needs all the time. We're exhausted and we ignore it and keep going. Right. And then the next day we're. We're still exhausted. Right. We diminish our own ability to produce results. And these days, what we do is actually invite women and men to go further. To give up the right to emasculate the opposite sex, to give up the right to emasculate the same sex, and to give up the right to emasculate themselves, which was the hardest thing for me to do. I obviously deserve to be emasculated. That was the hardest thing for me to give up. So, having said that, objectification is a way that we emasculate. It's a form of emasculation, and everybody does it. Men and women and children do it. In the Queen's Code, Bert talks about ways that he has done it. Right. For different reasons. But the best way to think about it, and I wish I had a coffee cup with me, because I don't. I just have this glass. So see how this glass doesn't have a handle on it? So it could slip through my fingers, right? It could spill, it could. I could. All kinds of problems could happen. If it had a handle on it, I would feel much more secure. I could deal with it. That's what objectification does. If we can name it, we think we can control it. It's an illusion, right? But if we can put a name to it, then we feel like we can forget it. We can deal with it. We can manage it. When we need to manage comes from manipulate, from hand. It's all about handling. And whether it's the objectification, like Jack talks about in chapter six about being treated like a checkbook. Now, you know, this obviously happened in a time when people had checkbooks.

Yes. I have not written a check in a long time.

A long time.

Checks. What are those?

Yes. Tempting to update it. Do you know, finally, by the end of the Queen's Code, I think they texted each other or something thing. And. But yeah, to. But we do that all the time, we men and women. We just slot somebody and we actually. We practice this in one of our courses called Lex. It has to do with how we listen. So when people are speaking. Right. And the Queen's Code teaches listening to learn instead of listening to agree or disagree. Right. And so Much you can get out of that. But another way that human beings listen, I call listen to label. So someone will be talking, and the question at the top of someone's mind will be, what is he? What is. What is he? Right. And then our own minds produce answers. He sounds like an accountant.

It's a heuristic. It's a shortcut in the brain. I've had a couple of neuroscientists on the show. It's literally to save calories for a our brain. So I'm like, oh, Allison, she's an author. She's this. But you're so much more than that. Or we do it to each other. This shortcutting.

We even do it to ourselves. We objectify ourselves. I have a voice in my head that says, allison, you're such an idiot.

Wow.

Idiot. So it. What was the word you just used?

A heuristic. It's a shortcut in the brain to save calories.

How do you spell it?

I. I'm gonna probably mess this up. Let's see. H U E S Heuristic. Somebody's typing it in the comments right now.

Okay, okay, I'm gonna. I'm gonna look it up because I'm fascinated by neuroscience and it's. And we use it a lot, and that's. And you'll even hear Claudia talk about in the Queen's code, that we have to celebrate our awareness when we become aware of what we do. That doesn't work if we condemn ourselves, since our brains are working for us. They'll be like, oh, she doesn't want to see that. When we celebrate the awareness. Oh, my gosh. I saw it. I emasculated him. And I. And I realized that I see it. Yeah, it was three days ago, but still, I see it. Yay for me.

I pulled it up. Alison. H U H E U R I S T I C S A general cognitive framework to quickly search for a solution.

Yes, that's the.

That's the term from Simply Psychology.

Yep, Yep. We definitely have this. And labeling is a quick way to regain a false sense of certainty and power. When we don't have one, we think if we can label it, we can manage it.

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I think we should save that entire topic for another time. But not wait two years.

I think so.

Because it's huge. It's huge.

Do it again.

Yes. Yeah, we should do it again.

Okay. Allison, you've been so awesome today. Thank you for being on the podcast. Is there something we covered so much ground. Is there something that you think we missed? When we look at the aspects and really the essence of The Queen's Code, especially the new audio reading.

Well, I would say that the word code, because you started there, it's twofold. So it's. You could think of it as this secret code of men's language, men's motivation, men's power or loss of power. But it's also a code of honor. And honor is not normally associated with women, mostly because the way men define honor, it's to do the right thing no matter how you feel. And, and that's our biggest challenge. And it's why I keep inviting women to literally invent their own code of honor. And we've had women create their own vow. Will they say I give up the right to emasculate men forever? Especially when they've hurt my feelings, especially when I'm mad at them. Especially when they've raised their voices like they'll. Especially my little brother. Right. They'll do. Especially my ex husband. They'll do. Especially because they know their. Where their feelings will, if they let them, will take over and they won't live up to their own word. And I think it's something all of us need to hold ourselves to if we're ever going to get where we want to go.

I feel like we're there. We're just learning from elders how we're already there. We're in a remembrance process. So final question, because I promised I would ask it. The language of heroes.

The language of heroes.

Language of heroes. Isn't it just the loving ancestors like Claudia that hold this language and that share it with others? Isn't it at the core of it? Or is it something.

Such an interesting way of looking at stuff. I have to process how you're asking the question. The language itself doesn't translate into all common languages. Right. So that's why it's really hard. Other languages. For the Queen's Code, the hero language has to be interpreted. For example, the word save in Hebrew is a horrible thing. So we found that out the hard way. But the essence of, of these words resonates with who men are. And you don't have to be taught to be it. It's a, it's. So I think in the way that you're languaging, the answer is yes. It's a calling forth of who a man really is. And, and we've seen men as young as 1 years old react to those words even when they've never heard them before.

Can you give us one of the words one reframe before we say goodbye. Just give us one. There's many in the book, but give us one.

Give us one. Oh, gosh, there's so many. Well, I did give you one. Save. Save is in the language of heroes. And help is also in the language of heroes. And, and saving is what's needed when people don't ask for help soon enough. And saving comes with a lecture, which women get really pissed off about that lecture. And it'd be good for us to own if we were willing to be helped and didn't think it was shameful to need help. The whole thing could turn out much.

You bring such a light to the world. And I don't say that lightly either. Like, I remember when we interviewed two years ago, and with all you had been through, you were still shining. And it's. To me, it feels like as soon as this camera turns off, as soon as this microphone turns off, you'd be the same way. What is it about your life that you love living? Well, in other words, how do you see wellness now, two years after I asked you that question first time, I.

Would say a couple of things. One is, I'm committed to being happy. So most people want to be happy and they're chasing happiness. I'm. I'm committed to it. I reverse engineered how for me to be happy. And you mentioned it when you were talking about the questions a shaman would ask when someone was unwell. And. And the last one being having spent time with yourself. And after Greg died, I. I didn't think I ever wanted to be in a relationship again. I know how much work they take. And. And then when I realized that I did, I. I also realized that I didn't want to live with someone full time. In the absence of Greg, who I lived with for almost 30 years, I discovered how much alone time I need, how much time I need to spend with myself. It's a lot. And so, you know, I moved to Steamboat Springs to be able to see Dan every day, but I don't live with him on purpose. And even though we're planning on being together until he dies when he's 93.

Okay.

We talk about if we ever leave here, where would we go? And we know wherever we went, we still would arrange to live in separate residences because. Because especially for a woman, it's impossible to not pay attention to a man who's on your property. And when we're paying attention to you, we can't hear ourselves very clearly. And so, yeah, I'll be the same when I hang up and I'll be here in my little house surrounded by snow. And I'll see. I'll see Dan later this afternoon to put the last set of chains on my tractor. Josh, thank you. Thanks for meeting you.

My heart is so full from this conversation. Thank you for having this little pod, this little encapsulated piece of time and wisdom with us. Thank you, Allison. We'll talk to you again on another podcast down the road. Okay, you guys make sure you get Queen's code, and we're talking about Allisonoshtrant.com forward slash podcast. We'll talk to you soon. Hey, thanks for watching this video. If you love this video, hit subscribe. That way you'll be automatically notified when new videos come out, new episodes, and also share this video with a friend. If you loved it, they're going to love it, too. Check out some of the videos on this screen that are perfectly curated based on the video you just saw. Make sure you follow me and I'll see you in the next video.