Are Your TRIGGERS Your Teachers? Psychosomatic Therapy + Emotional Anatomy Inside Out | Dr. Jin Ong

This phrase, seeing the space in between, what does that actually mean?

The space in between is where all of a sudden, you're not triggered. You're more present. You can hear and see yourself thinking. You can recognize your thoughts, and maybe you go to a reaction, but you've got that space in between where you can make a choice on whether or not you react, which we generally don't want, or you can respond. It's like where time collapses. Everything just slows down, and you can process everything in the Mom Constantly teaching my clients how to say no. And that no is a full sentence. It's knowing your values, and therefore, it's also having the confidence to express your boundaries. In our pain, we often don't believe that it can get any better. But, yes, when we have those deep, dark times, it can make the high stuff feel even higher.

There's. There's so much to my life that I don't understand, which is why I do this podcast. And with wellness and wisdom, I think about the ways that I've garnered both of those. And, Jen, they haven't come easily all the time. And it's definitely the case when I was preparing for the interview. With yourself, you know, you've been through quite a bit to be able to go to medical school and to be able to serve people across the world. Like, whoa. So if people don't know you, what is a catharsis practitioner? What exactly do you do in the world? I feel like I came across a piece of content where you actually let go of the cathartic release therapist title. Or are you still using that?

Well, I thought that you would probably ask me, you know, how do I describe myself? I'm like, well, I don't know if I even say cathartic release practitioner anymore.

Okay, okay.

But I will also add. So I was trained as an osteopath, which I know in the States that you have to be a medical doctor, but I'm not medically trained in Australia and New Zealand. It's a little bit different. But, yeah, I have had many iterations of my title, and it has varied from being an osteopath to being a herbalist, who was an osteopath and acupuncturist, and then got into psychosomatic therapy, emotional anatomy. And then there was a period of time where I still do love getting big cathartic releases out of my clients. But then I also realized there was only a certain type of constitutional personality that liked the catharsis or was able to get the cathartic release. So I guess I use that title because I wanted to let people know I'm prepared to go there if you're ready. But then people started to feel like, well, is catharsis right? Is it fragmenting? I got questioned that. And also people started to feel like, well, I'm not getting the big cathartic purge. Am I not doing this right? So I've actually, I'm going to move away from that title and call myself a psychosomatic therapist, emotional anatomy practitioner. But really, I think it's more in the description that helps people understand what I do.

We're always trying to create heuristics, aren't we? These little shortcuts in our brain where we, oh, yeah, I know who Jen is. I know who she is. It's like I could never know you in an hour podcast, or even in one deep dive. We do as really wellness people, wellness practitioners, healers in this world. There's no way I could ever know the A to Z of you. But one thing that I loved that I really connected with, we actually got your name from somebody in our audience, and she had passed it across my desk. And we always ask our audience, like, who should we have on the show? Like, who is someone that is embodied in both their wellness and their wisdom? And after our call, and then you taking me through a process, which I'd love for you to share, I thought, okay, this is a clear message from the universe, from God, from higher intelligence, to spotlight Jen's work. So tell people the process that you took me through and who it's designed for, what it actually gives to someone. It's a very specific process. What do you call it, that process you took me through?

So what I presented to you was a history interpretation. So usually I would be sitting with someone online and I would be taking them through these questions and asking them to answer them. But I just gave you a written text for you to fill out in your own time. And then what I'm going to do is interpret your history for you. And this is where I help people understand what's physical, what's emotional, what's human, what's energetic, and what's a chakra or a dosha imbalance. So the chakras and doshas are Eastern philosophies that I bring together and intertwined with all of the work that I've learned in the Western and conventional world as an osteopath and everything that I've learned along the way from life experience and just really interacting with people. So that's actually something new that I'm doing, but it is what I will do when I'm working with clients or if I'm working in groups. The more I know about someone's history, the more I can actually connect the dots for them and really raise the awareness about what emotions might be stored in their body and therefore manifesting in its undesirable, desirable, physical, mental, behavioral, energetic ways in life. But then my. My main process is what I call the release process. And this is teaching people how to process their emotions. And that's a four step process. And the key is you don't just learn about it, you've got to do it and see what comes out of your body.

Yeah. And I'm sure the four steps are super easy, Right? There's no context, no nuance in those four steps. It's just four easy steps, right?

Yep, definitely. But everyone, you know, the human brain gets in the way and complicates it and has objections and asks questions, which I'm totally open to. But once you learn it and you use it and you see the power of it, you realize, oh, it really is as simple as she teaches, but.

We make it challenging. And I think this is really what wisdom is. Wisdom takes really big concepts and it boils them down to either story or metaphor or teaching practicum that we can all understand. I even heard this before. If a 10 year old can understand what you do, then you're probably a master. Because so many of us, we overcomplicate everything. The healing process, podcasting, parenting. Let's get right down to it. Where does the voice actually come from? A lot of your work, even your podcast, you know, the art of listening to your body, the body has a voice. Where does that voice actually come from?

That is a very deep question. So I would say from experience, it is the voice that really is within us. I really do believe that we have all of the answers within us if we allow the space, more of the feminine energy to come in, more of the quietness. And I have a lot of things running through my mind as to how it is you can access this. And so it's just. It is within us. It is our own voice, which often has been shut down or we've chosen to suppress it because of different experiences, belief systems, or how we've been brought up.

And you think the voice has more of a feminine call than a masculine call?

At its core, I think it's more feminine because this is where I've noticed when my clients go through doing the process and actually using their voice. So the voice, I say, the verbal dialogue is so important because it's got a vibration, it's got a frequency, and it has the most amazing messages. So, again, I teach in a very masculine way. This is the structure. This is the steps. Go and try it. And then the feminine flow, the energetics, you start to see it come up. And the intuition that comes up. So many people are surprised with, oh, my gosh, I can't believe I said that. Well, they start to hear themselves in a different way. So I think the voice in a release process definitely has a feminine aspect to it.

That's beautiful because, you know, it's interesting. On our logo and in a lot of my work, I've been really drawn to the water sign, you know, the upside down triangle. And, of course, that's the feminine. Right? That is the symbol that is the archetype of the feminine inside of that triangle. And one of the things that I know about myself and probably so many of us that are here with us right now on the podcast, we live in a hyper, masculine, hyper, do more world, and that world is creating energy that goes sideways inside of so many of us. I mean, I look at even your path in osteopathy and then in becoming more skilled in ayurvedic and learning about the doshas, A lot of energy that it took you to probably learn all the things you needed to learn in order to serve in the way you serve took a lot of that masculine energy to do. Looking back, what was, like, the hardest thing that you experienced in getting to where you are now?

Oh, yeah. And I love how we've just started talking about masculine and feminine energy, because so often people are in one camp or the other and labeling it as good or bad, but we require both the masculine and the feminine energy. But where most people end up is so hard in the masculine. And that is definitely where I've been, but it has led me to where I am now, which is really still learning a lot about trying to embody and embrace the feminine energy. The feminine really is the energetics, and it's the stuff that doesn't make sense. But we're brought up in such a masculine and logical world, so probably I credit all of the masculine ways that I've learned, and it's helped me in terms of how I teach in a structured format so that all of the flow can happen. I would say the hardest thing was to follow the feminine calling, the intuition, actually embodying my work and putting it out There knowing that there is always going to be judgment or criticism as to how I show up, that I can't make everyone happy, but that deeper calling inside to. I just really have to express this because I was having some health issues. They weren't really bad on, you know, the spectrum of things. It was more cystic, acne, hives, rashes. But I knew something was going on in my body, and the only thing left to do was on the emotional front and really the expression front. And that's really what brings me to the power of this work and therefore why I want to share it. Because ultimately, it is about connecting people with their sole purpose, allowing their soul to be expressed in this lifetime if it's able to. And that's where I think so many things can be resolved.

But we have to experience the contrast. I don't know why higher power made it this way. Some of us experience deep troves of contrast. Some of us just experience contrast. There's no. I mean, we could talk about Dharma. We could talk about free will. We could talk about karma and the credit card that the universe likes to cash in. I don't really know. There's kind of a mystery there. We have all these theories, right? But in your world, what are the biggest rocks, the biggest things that block the body's voice from being heard? I know there's many of them, but what do you see across the gamut in your work that actually block that inner voice from being heard?

Upbringing, conditioning, and belief systems. I would put that in one role.

Okay.

The busyness of the masculine world. It's like the 95 or the 99% way of thinking, which is the bigger societal conditioning. And then getting stuck in the masculine mind, the logical mind, and not following our heart.

But there's trusting, not trusting. That's really key. I want people to hear that not trusting. We hear about this concept of trust. I myself am working on trust. I think many of us are. Just because the nervous system is connected to the mind and vice versa. There's a mind, body, connection that you talk about in your work and I reflect on in my own life. Some of the most challenging times have produced the most beautiful growth. Like the most amazing things where when I got through them, even to start this podcast, I reflect back to being on a golf course at like three in the morning, on my knees. I just put my mom in a mental home. I had gotten out of a relationship. I thought I was going to be with this person forever. And I got fired from a safe job. I Mean, the universe was just like, boom, boom, boom. And a year later, two years later, if you would have asked me, you know, what was the purpose of that or what was the purpose of my pain for me to feel that, I would say to teach me how to actually deal with the challenges of life and to listen to my voice and the consequences of what happened when I don't listen to my voice. Have you ever had a moment like that, like on your knees or where you're just like, okay, I'm now going to listen to this voice because I've been presented with this pain and contrast. Is there a moment that comes up for you? There's a.

Well, I love how you put all of that and how some of us have to experience contrast. And that's where I say, my clients and the people that I've interacted with and friends who have had crisis, they are my biggest teachers. And I really aim not for myself to end up in that huge contrast, that massive gap. But I do experience gaps and voids throughout my year, throughout my life, for sure.

Yes.

And for me, it really is coming back to trusting that I've got to sit with this. And I know there's a breakthrough on the other side. And this is where. When I teach people the verbal dialogue process, the inner child, or the. I call them younger self conversations are so important because two years ago, when you were in that situation, you were probably asking a whole bunch of questions.

And it was seven years ago. But yes, seven.

Yes, sorry, seven years ago, you were probably asking all these questions, and it's so amazing to actually go and heal your younger self and go back and answer those questions now. Like, yes, it all worked out. And look at where you are today. And in. In our pain, we often. We often don't believe that it can get any better. But yes, when we have those deep, dark times, it can make the high stuff feel even higher. So, yeah, I have had some dark points. I wouldn't necessarily say if I was to compare to other people's situations, it wasn't a massive crisis that stopped me functioning in the world.

So you don't want to share, and that's okay. You don't have to.

Oh, okay. Well, my turning point was when. Okay, my crisis point, I would put it, is when my skin was going pretty ballistic. So it was. I can't remember the timeline. It was anywhere between eight or 11 years ago. I feel like I'm always saying the same timeline is my skin was just breaking out in cystic acne all over My face, my chest, my body. It was painful. It was psychologically painful. My skin had always been my weak spot. And I threw all the conventional natural therapies at it. And they all worked whilst I was on them. But this is where I realized after well over a decade of treating it, that there was something deeper. So this is when I started to go on the emotional journey more for my clients. But then hello, realized I had to work on myself and then got to the point of like, oh, my gosh, you know, if only I could just meditate for two hours a day. I would do that if it would fix my skin. And I was looking at all these external things. I was spending thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars seeing therapists, seeing practitioners, seeing herbalists controlling my diet, going gluten free, dairy free, sugar free, vegan raw. And actually seeing now, on reflection, how that a dysfunctional behavior. I was trying to control external circumstances.

That's honest.

To fix my pain, which was my skin.

That is very honest. So it's kind of how we started our podcast today. You were applying this masculine, like, what are the five things I should do to fix my skin? But it was much deeper. And we've heard that in different ways in so much of the media on this show. And I think about even in your osteopathy school, and I know you talked about the difference between where you live and in America, the medical. The medical parameters around that. But what. What did you learn in medical school that you had to unlearn as a healer in what you do now?

So in Osteo school. Osteo School was very masculine. It was very academic. I was talking to my practitioners in the practitioner training about this is we've got to be wary where our mentors and teachings come from. So I do see Osteo School. I had to just jump through some hoops. Could I go back to Osteo School? No way. Not with the work I do now. And I wouldn't say I practice as an osteopath anymore. I still have that registration, but I'm very removed from that. I don't touch people with my hands anymore. And often people look at me and say, oh, I want to go to Osteo School. I'm like, actually, all the stuff I do now is not from Osteo School. Yeah, I just saw the rigidity the. You know, even down to, like, registration boards, not having that flexibility of working how I want. But again, it was the masculine side of things, which was beneficial. It also showed me what I could put myself through to get to where I am. But, yeah, thanks for raising that. I wasn't actually disclosing what my pain point is, because I do like to be really transparent. But, yeah, after the. The acne and all of that, my skin started to break out in hives. And it was the location of the hives that was really interesting. I had them all over my joint lines, and my health started going downhill. I started experiencing pain in my body and just watching myself get so externalized with everything. And then I was learning about emotions, and I thought, oh, my gosh, is it really. Is it really that I. I just have to express what I know that's inside of me. That's all I was left with. So I thought, I'm going to go all in. And I did it. And, you know, it continues to evolve, and it's really cool, and my skin's fine.

Yeah. And I think I even read on your site somewhere, if it. If it comes back around this skin issue, it's almost like your barometer for when, you know you're out of alignment. I thought that was really honest and really cool, because if you're leading to the degree that you're a leader and you're a health practitioner, a healer, guiding people across the world, which you do to the degree that you tend to your own healing and your own bolstering and your own nourishment, even being honest about our imperfections. Right. As a podcaster, as a businesswoman, as a mom, I mean, there's so much on your plate. I think there's just a lot of trustability there. I think people can really connect with that and feel that. And I'm curious about, like, this concept of how do we do it all? Because especially for moms, like, our son is one year old, and sometimes I'm like, carrie, how do you do it? Like, how do you do it all? Like, there's so much to take care of in a single day, let alone a week or a month. Do you feel like, as a society, I'm curious how this manifests in your clients. Do you feel like, as a society, we have said yes to so much and we've not developed the courage to say no?

Absolutely, yes. I am constantly teaching my clients how to say no, and that no is a full sentence. And it comes down to values. It comes down to boundaries. And. And it's knowing your boundaries. It's knowing your values, and therefore, it's also having the confidence to express your boundaries. And when you express your boundaries, that can be Very triggering for people. And that's why I believe you've really got to know yourself. You've got to process your emotions so that you can stand so grounded in those decisions. Because there are always going to be people that don't like what you say or the boundaries that you set.

I think sometimes we get afraid of letting people down. You know, we don't put up our boundaries because maybe we learned that as children, that when you put up a boundary, mom and dad don't like that, or the caregiver doesn't like that. But then, of course, we learn that from they themselves, who do it with our grandparents. And you can go all the way up the chain, right? Going way back, five, six, seven generations. I think about procrastination and perfectionism. You. You actually wrote in some movies, media, that you've. I think you even said, I'm a recovering perfectionist and procrastinator. How did that. How did that come down your lineage? Or was that something specifically just to you? Because the way that you got through that, I think, is really interesting.

Well, I come from an Asian culture, and I think that the perfectionism and high performance in academia is really credited in Asian culture. I do believe that when I was younger, I remember from a teen that I could hear that inner voice, and I made decisions to not procrastinate or I made decisions to make progress over perfection. So I was always curious. I didn't want to be modeled. I didn't want to be influenced by other people's belief systems. And, yeah, I just. I just honored it. I just. I knew I had to fight for it. And it probably came out in the form of anger when I was younger. Not probably. It did come out in the form of anger when I was younger. And that's why I love sharing in. In this capacity on a podcast or just talking about it, because maybe someone younger is going to hear about this or maybe a parent's going to hear about this and realize that their children, even though they're genetically, you know, 50% the mum, 50% the dad, that they really do have their own life path. And I often get people saying, can you help my child? Can you help my kid? What do I do? I said, it always starts with you, because they're going to learn so much from your role modeling and how you behave.

Yeah, kids don't necessarily listen. And I know that because I'll be like, nova, come here. And he'll just be playing, but he watches me. He watches me intently. And like, for example, when I'M doing something new. I see him just taking it all in fresh and it's so beautiful. It's such a. It's such a beautiful thing watching children evolve and grow. And children, they don't regulate like we regulate. They have the ancient brain, like the reptilian brain, to help them, you know, with their nerves. And their vagus nerve is still coming online. They're still learning how to self soothe. But primarily children, they use mom and dad for soothing. So to the degree that we are regulated as parents, that is going to make a drastic impact on our ability of our children to regulate themselves. And I love one question I was feeling into earlier this morning when I was looking at your work. One of the episodes you did was about this, seeing the space in between. And it's this space people get to when they start to be able to process their emotions, to process their trauma, to be in their stuff. I've even heard Viktor Frankl say there's a space between stimulus and response. So how did you come across this, this phrase, seeing the space in between? What does that actually mean?

All of the work that I share is from experience of working with clients for 15 years in the Osteo Clinic and seeing many, many clients. And then the last handful of years diving into the emotional space and actually tr my work, it's become more refined. And I've been able to label these milestones that I notice people go through. And I've been sharing a lot recently about these four milestones. And seeing the space in between is one of them. But usually the order in which it happens is that when people are willing to do the deeper work, they first become less triggered by people and things and events around them, and they actually notice it. Then the next one is they start to become more present. So they hear themselves, they can hear what the other person is saying, but they can also read the energy of the person or read the energy of a room. And then the third one is seeing the space in between. And this is where it's a little bit like energetics, but I can explain it in a practical form. And it is like you say Viktor Frankl says, that's the stimulus and the response. So you can have this trigger that would potentially lead to a reaction. But most humans are aiming not to react. It's the undesirable sort of manifestation. Most humans are trying to respond. So the space in between is where all of a sudden you're not triggered, you're more present. You can hear and see yourself thinking. You can recognize your Thoughts and maybe you go to a reaction, but you've got that space in between where you can make a choice on whether or not you react, which we generally don't want, or you can respond. A respond doesn't mean you have to give the person an an. It's just responding to a situation in a way that feels from a place of integrity, something that you can walk away from and not regret your behavior or have to necessarily apologise about it. So seeing the space in between is really beautiful. It's like where time collapses because time is this funny human concept, but everything just slows down and you can process everything in the moment and choose how you want to show up. And then the fourth one is more energetics. It's serendipity, coincidences. This is the crazy stuff that you notice happening because all of a sudden you've got the space to actually be aware of how the deeper work is playing out in your external life.

I love the four. I think the reason I resonated most with that space between the stimulus and response is because that's my own journey. That's my own journey. It's probably most people's journeys to not just have the mammalian reflex where we snap at someone. Even the people that we most love, Jen, that we most care about, it seems like those are the people that bring up our deepest work, our deepest triggers, our wives, our husbands, even our children. Right. What do you think that is? You know, what's your understanding of. The deepest triggers are actually an invitation for us to heal, but not in some spiritual woo woo way. It's a legitimate call for healing. When I am massively triggered by someone that I love.

Oh, absolutely. This is such a good line of conversation to go down. And it brings me back to how you said seven years ago, all that pain and challenge you went through is building your resilience for the future challenges. And so many people are under this illusion that when you connect with your purpose, your sole purpose, however you want to look at it, that your life is just going to flow and be free of challenges. And it's not true, but you learn to embrace the challenges and know and trust that there is a lesson in this and I'm going to grow out of it. And yeah, I believe that we, we have these recurring themes that happen and they can play out in our intimate, our family, our workplace, relationships in different shapes, way and forms, because there is a lesson there that we're yet to recognize. So if we're willing to go in deep and at first, you might have the trigger. You might react in a way that you don't like. But if you can be aware of that and then willing to be curious and look deeper, there definitely are deeper lessons and not necessarily lessons that are linked to the interaction and reaction, if that makes sense.

It does. The interaction and reaction to me, the words that I might put on it may be different than yours. Some. I'm curious how you feel about this. If I'm hyper reactive or I'm hyper vigilant, there's obviously some trauma. Either capital T, lowercase t to unpack. And it could be trauma from the relationship, it could be trauma from childhood or even generational trauma. I'll link in the notes for our podcast today, our series with Mark Wolin. It didn't start with you because there's things to be said about, you know, when our great great grandparents pass down emotional trauma in the same way that epigenetics pass down physical issues, like a baby being born with type 1 diabetes, I think they're actually one in the same. And I don't argue with the fact that emotional and spiritual maladies can travel through generations at all. But I'm curious how you feel about this. When we look at the deepest parts of ourselves and we're noticing that we're the most triggered by the people that we care about the most, what has across the board, you've seen be the invitation for healing there specifically?

Oh yeah. So sometimes it can be like, how many times do you need to learn this lesson in the different shape, way or form? And it could be you need to have this happen to you a hundred times over to make you realize that it's nothing external. You can't bypass it in another relationship or move countries or escape it. It's going to follow you. So what is the invitation? Because very much what I have learned on this journey is as much as I want everyone to go down this pathway, not everyone's going to relate to me and be willing to hear my message. And it's also about timing. And I also think that sometimes a soul's journey is not necessarily to live out their purpose in this lifetime. So I've really had to let go of, oh my gosh, you know, you can really dive into this emotional work and your life is going to be so much better. Is I do need a willing to participant because if they don't believe, they don't resonate and it's not their time, it's just going to fall on deaf ears. No matter how powerful I know this work to be, but I've got a lot of evidence of the shifts that it can create. That is why I share a lot. Because one day and had having been an osteopath for 15 years, I saw that people would circle back two, five or 10 years later. And I've had it in the emotional world that people come back, they go and try other things, they spend a lot of money, but that's their journey. They've had to do that to realize all that's left is emotions. Yeah, I can't pay this amount of money. I can't have someone externally fix me. I've got to be ready to dive in. So I've just gotten clearer. And I have had enough interactions with people that I know when someone's truly ready. And a lot of the time, especially when I work with people on a one to one level, I'm always trying to turn them off, doing the work to make sure they really want it.

What are the ways in which you try to turn them off or get rid of them? It's really a test. Almost like, you know, when the ancient master tests the student. Right. What are some of the ways that you try to make sure? Not try to make sure. What are some of the ways that you make sure that they're ready to do the deepest work?

Well, one thing I take responsibility for is that I share all aspects of my work, the good, the bad and the ugly. And I love to talk about the dark stuff. It's not just all high vibe. And then they get to know me. I on a practical masculine business sense, I have an application form. I used to welcome anyone to have a chat with me and then I realized I was attracting people who weren't ready to do the work. So I have an application form. And actually the fact that someone has to register to receive the application form is a form of are they really ready? Are they willing to push the button and move forward? And then are they willing to actually take the time to fill out the form, which is not as lengthy as what I sent you. Will they fill out the form and submit it? And it's so funny because I know there's a lot of people that probably look at the form but never get around to submitting it. And then I just know they're not ready. Whereas before they used to just jump on a call with me and then I would use my time and they would use their time.

Yeah, yeah. Have you ever met with someone that filled out the form, checked all the boxes, did all the things and then when it gets right down to it, maybe they've worked, worked with you for a couple months, but you get to this point where you can actually see it. I know I have, I've worked with people and I've also, looking back in my life, I've done this to people too, my therapists, where my ego is so not wanting to be exposed. My ego wants to hide so bad. And I'm not here to demonize the ego. I think the ego has some beauty to it. I think the ego can be a beautiful protector. But have you ever worked with the client and then all of a sudden they just choose to stop? They just choose to listen to the unintegrated wisdom of their ego to keep them safe. How is that played out? Obviously you can't name names, but can you share with us an example or two of that manifesting so people know when it's happening to them?

Yes. So I'd say that I have been pretty lucky with my one to one clients that I haven't necessarily had that experience. And sometimes because I only will work with people over a 12 week period of time because it requires that commitment to get through some of the messy stuff in the early days, some of them will finish with me at 12 weeks even though I know I can go further with them. But there's no convincing. And then some people will continue the journey and have, continue to have these amazing breakthroughs. So with my one to ones, not so much, I would have to say in my groups and only this year I have experienced this. And groups I believe can be very triggering environments for some people. And I did a social media post recently about people who think or want to be ready and actually being ready are two very different things. And we don't recognize that often until we're in the situation and actually acting out on all of the things that are required for us to show up in the world, in the feminine space, in the masculine space. So it definitely is challenging and I'm very aware that I can trigger people the way that I coach or coach, consult people. I have other coaches who help kind of soothe that or, or deliver the information in a different way. But yeah, it certainly is challenging when someone becomes triggered in my space because I know there's so many lessons, but when you're in the pain of it, you just can't receive any more. And so I hope to share from a place of love and compassion and I hope that the lessons will land sooner rather than later. But it might be five years or 10 years. And that has been my experience as well, like yours, that I have hated some of my mentors. That is a very strong word. I don't use it for any of the reasons that I have. And I acknowledge that it came from a very triggered place. It was my first. My One of my very first mentors eight years ago. But now I get it. Now that I'm in the position that maybe he sort of was in, I get it. I get why he did the things that he did. I get why he said the things that he did. And this is where I now have learned to reserve some of my judgment, unless I've been in that position that that person is in.

What did he say?

Oh, well, one thing which actually just come up in a conversation that I've been having with my coaches that work with me is ask better questions. And he was so direct because I so wanted to, like, get the coaching and I is not asking good questions. And he would say, you need to learn how to ask better questions. And I'd say that that was a lot blunter than what I will say to my clients, which is, you'll learn to ask better questions through the process of asking questions. And that's what we're here to support you with. Whereas, yeah, it was just, you've got to ask better questions and a multitude of other things, down to finances and contracts.

That's so good. And that one sentence right there, learn how to ask better questions. And your response was, okay, I get to do this by asking more questions. I'll learn how to ask better. That's been my journey. That has absolutely been my journey for me. The two places that I pull from kind of like a right brain, left brain, hemisphere. When I ask you questions, when I ask anyone questions in an interview, I'm actually asking questions from my heart, number one. So my heart is curious about something, and it's like, what does that mean? How does that work? Let me learn the wisdom of that. Let me get the nugget from that. And then sometimes I get into, like, an intellectual place where I'll be. I'll kind of nerd out and I'll say, oh, wow. How does the vagus nerve actually work? And what are afferent and efferent messaging signals? And how do motor neurons work? I mean, I think they're both really important. What are the things that you lean on when you ask your clients powerful questions? As a therapist, as a healer, I.

Often do come back to the body and the sensations. So sometimes through a history that I've gained from someone, I'm reading their body language, listening to their tone of voice, if there's emotion there. And that gives me an indication as to, okay, this is something I think we need to process together, and I'll facilitate it, or you can do it on your own. And other times and more recently, what I've been doing is getting them to tap into their body wisdom. So if we just tune into sensation in your body, where does your mind go to? What memory, event or person comes up? And then we. We go through and it's. It's questioning the body, the body's intuition. And if we don't have the question in our mind, we can always tap into our body.

I think a lot of people, when they get. I love that answer because we've probably mentioned this a thousand times. You know, best are Vandal Kolks Work the Body Keeps the Score. Peter Levine, Waking the Tiger. They're both phenomenal books. And I think about the way that literally our tissues store trauma. So if someone's had sexual abuse, physical abuse, there's a sense memory in there. But the same thing happens with mental abuse, with verbal abuse. Our body literally and figuratively holds a scorecard which then I believe is projected onto others and sometimes to the people that we care about the most. For people that have been through significant trauma and with respect, I ask this, right, because I don't know personally what it's like to be sexually abused or to be physically abused. That hasn't happened to me. There has been emotional and mental abuse, which I'm, you know, still unpacking at my age. Right. I think it's a lifelong journey, but it seems like we all need, Jen, this Goldilocks zone of awareness where it's like, we're not too open and we're not too closed. What exactly is that zone?

I think you've got to feel ready, and you've got to feel safe to be open. And it's finding the right therapists, it's finding the right groups. I'm all about loving the unspoken stuff. I think that we live in a very PC world that people don't know what they can say and they're often protecting others. Especially if you're in your group environment, it's like, can I bring this to the group? Is it too much? Is it too heavy? And, yeah, I actually prefer to be in a space where everyone is just open. And especially when you introduce energetics into this work, nothing is too crazy. I have often got people saying, I don't know if this is too much information. I don't know if this is something you can support with. I might just. Just ask and we'll tell you.

Yeah, I think we say things like that because we want to make sure that it's a safe place. I actually, I don't know how you feel about this, but I'm really curious. You've probably had at this point, tens of thousands of conversations. If you stack up all your group participants and all your one on ones, and even as an osteopath, tens of thousands of conversations where people might say something to you that sounds like, hey, sorry, if this is too much information. Really what I think that is is their subconscious mind or the deepest part of their heart asking for. For permission to share and wanting to make sure that they receive some kind of message back from you that it actually is an okay place to share. Because if you were as a leader or if somebody that was not skilled might say, yeah, we'll talk about that later, or wow, that's too much information. That would literally halt any type of discovery or growth from that person probably for months or years.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And that's. Yeah, it's definitely coming from a place of asking permission. And even for me, I've got to remember to ask permission. Can I share this? Are you in a space to actually receive it? And then for the people who have experienced that, where they felt shut down, I really encourage you to use your voice and communicate and not do that because that's where the growth is in communication. Some uncomfortable conversations. And the truth is that some practitioners will say that because they're working on their own stuff or they don't know how to go deeper into that aspect.

I think about my journey with our birth. You know, you had a lotus birth, which is amazing. Right. How old is your child now?

She is almost eight.

So eight years ago you had a lotus birth. And for people that don't know, that's actually when the placenta is birthed with the child and then there's a natural occurrence where the cord is. Do you do a burning of the cord or is that the ceremony?

No, it just dropped off just naturally.

Okay.

Yeah.

You had like a very dream experience. Most. Most women, I would say, probably really desire that experience. You know, we had a plan for birth. Things didn't work out the way that we wanted. And I think about the way that we come into the world. How much have you seen from people that have maybe been born with the cord wrapped around their neck or having a traumatic Birth or having to have an emergency procedure, does that come back to people emotionally and energetically as an adult?

I think it depends on how the mother or the parents experienced it and perceived it as well. So sometimes you can have someone with an emergency C section, which was in their birth plan as a possibility, and that's what I had in my birth plan, even though we had a home birth. They can have an emergency C section, but actually really fully feel at peace with it. And I think this comes back to what are the expectations that you have and did you allow for some flexibility and adaptability in that plan? So also, what I see for people who are processing their own birth trauma is how was their birth communicated to them in story by their parents or their loved ones? By their parents. And what trauma and energy do their parents hold when they communicate about it? I just won't mention the person, but I was told story. Well, when, When. Often I experience myself. And when women tell people they're pregnant, all the terrible stories come out.

Yes.

And it's just projection. And when you were saying that when we get triggered, someone else asked me a really great question. What happens when you still get triggered by or hurt by someone saying something, even though rationally you know that it's about them? I would say there's still a wound. There is still something for you to explore under there. So, yeah, people will go, oh, you're pregnant. I'll project all of my terrible stories. The human is just amazing at talking about negative experiences. So I. But I'm always looking at people's body language, reading their energy, hearing the words that they use, and that helps me recognize that's your story and it's not mine. And also, I don't want to hear that right now because I'm really focusing on this birth. I am aware of things that can go wrong. I'm planning that. So, yeah, you just keep your negative stories to yourself. So I think it is more about the parent who maybe experienced a traumatic birth. The energy and the way they communicate that story to the child, and the energy and emotions that that child carries their belief system around that story. Because the child will have a different context around what they heard. So, yeah, it can become a trauma that they later choose to process. And people do it all sorts of a variety of ways. And other people are really, really fine with the fact that they were born with a cord around their neck or so on.

Yeah. Wow, that's so wise. I just want everybody to, like, play that back because. And this is for all the Parents out there, you always want the best outcome for your child, no matter what, and for yourselves and you and your partner. Right? We all want the best. But one thing you said really stuck with me right now. You said, you know, we had a birth plan. We had a plan. And you also mentioned you weren't attached to it. Having to work out a specific way, like you covered all of your bases. I think that's really, really wise. Unfortunately, I have seen in wellness a lot of pressure for women to birth basically alone by a lake with this free birth movement that at its core, I think is beautiful. But I'm seeing it be really homogenized and really used in a way to shame women, where unless you're a woman and you have the baby by a lake and there's no Pitocin, no intervention, no nothing, then somehow you, quote, followed the wrong path or you did something wrong. I think it is absolutely atrocious the way that both directly and subvertly, women are being shamed by a lot of people in this free birth movement. It's actually something I dealt with personally. I can't go into details out of respect for my partner, but it's something that we absolutely need to take stock of. There is no shame in doing the best you can and planning for all outcomes. There is no shame in that. And anytime a human being is telling you exactly how you should do anything, then you know they're coming from completely unintegrated wisdom. You have any thoughts on that?

Yeah, Well, I personally know that my birth story being quite a positive experience, is very triggering for people. But I also know that when I was trying to search for women that were pregnant and climbing at altitude because we had a trip to South America or skiing or going in saunas, I wanted resources. I wanted people to share their stories with me. So that is the reason, reason I share. But I am very aware it triggers people. But I do work with women who have had C sections, and I don't shame them for it because that is their experience for that, that moment in time. And I will say that a lot of the women that I deal with who have C sections, some of the stuff that goes through their mind that often others may not speak about is feeling like, well, I shouldn't be here because if I didn't have a C section, my baby would have died. I would have died. So actually feeling like a failure as a female because I couldn't have a natural birth. So there are amazing things that modern medicine allow for. And I used to have some Friends who I'm still friends with, who was very in the camp of, you know, evolutionary wise, you know, women who have C sections shouldn't be here. I know that later on down the track, they had their own C section. So this is that whole judgment thing, is that until we're in the extreme experience of it and, you know, knowing the desire of wanting to have a baby or a healthy baby, we think differently, and sometimes we can regret the things that we say. So that was quite a heated argument that I was witness to. Healthy heated argument between two friends. Yeah. Or even I was having conversation with a friend who was like, you know, however the baby comes out, isn't it just a matter of it being healthy? I'm like, there's probably a little bit more to it, and it depends who you speak to. So I would just be mindful of. That is an opinion, and that is how some people operate. But you might think differently when you have your own baby. In the mode of birth that you.

Go through, everyone sitting in the stands has a perfect opinion of how they play the game. Everybody's like, well, I do it this way, or. And then it's interesting you said that because you said many of the. Of the people that you knew or some of the people that you knew were in a camp of saying that it has to be this certain way because they held that belief. And I'm sure this is not just birth. It's probably so many categories. The people that. That had such stern beliefs about exactly how birth should go or exactly how anything should go. Do you feel that the universe serves them karma and gives them an opportunity to see where they were dogmatic in their own beliefs?

Yeah, absolutely. And I think this comes back to having high expectations, and that's, you know, a feminine wound is disappointment. It didn't turn out how I expected. And there are so many layers to that. You know, were you really rooted in that desire? Did you do the work? So it's really hard for me to get someone at 38, 39 weeks pregnant who's like, I want to have a birth like you did. I'm like, oh, it takes a lot more. And I don't know how much you can cram it in two weeks when actually you're meant to be in this feminine embodiment space right now. It'll just overwhelm you. So that's, again, why I talk about this, because I love to, and I have had the opportunity of working with women before they get pregnant. But I also say it's not Too late to do the work. And often once the child arrives, our little triggers, we don't realize the extra layers of work we have to do until we are triggered by that child entering the world, that baby, so on. So yeah, it is a continuous journey. My daughter continues to trigger me. Yeah, expectations. It definitely is a lesson. And again in the pain of it. And sometimes there's this postnatal period of maybe postnatal depression, diagnosed or not, it can take years before you have the ability to actually be able to address that. Also because often there is a, an innate sort of innate behavior to keep this baby alive. Right. Feed it, change its nappies, is so dependent on you. And that's a masculine mode going into the caring, even though we think it's very feminine. But then all of a sudden we can lose ourselves, the mother and the father and then there's all sorts of relationship dynamics. So yeah, the earlier I think we can go into the world of emotions. I say then you're less likely to pass on that energy to your child. They're still going to have their own journey. But if you can clear as much of that as possible, then that would be amazing. And yeah, what are your expectations? And coming back to why is it that you want to birth this way? Because if someone feels safer and wants to birth in the hospital, then great, and I'll share the two sides for them. I just want people to be grounded in their decision. I don't mind if you're going to get a C section, but I'll let you know there's another way. Maybe in the second or third pregnancy you're ready to do that. But how can we come to peace with whatever is going to be.

I've heard a lot of stories. A couple people here in Austin, women that went the route of C section and then their second birth, they had a natural birth, lotus birth or a free birth at home. And you know, it's something where unfortunately my experience from a lot of the free birth community, not all of it, I think, I think there are beautiful people in that community that are doing amazing work, like the leader of Indie Birth and there's some other organizations, but unfortunately one of the most popular organizations does not have any resources for men whatsoever. There's no ways for the dad to actually learn about how to support the partner. Their answers basically are just hold the space. And it's like, okay, I understand that, I understand the phrase just hold the space. But for a first time father, a man that isn't giving birth, my own experience and also probably hundreds of thousands, thousands of men in America that go through this. Have you seen emotional intelligence training for men to deal with the demands of pregnancy and postpartum with women?

This is where I say, I think the work starts a lot earlier because I felt incredibly supported from Gav, my husband, which I know can be very triggering for people. And this is something that I say is a form of birth trauma, is that you could have physically, a textbook amazing vaginal birth. No physical, physical trauma, no pain or anything. But the trauma is that you felt so unsupported by your partner that they weren't present, they didn't do things the way you wanted. And although I didn't follow hypnobirthing and do it myself, it is something that I recommended to a lot of people. And what I loved about it is that it brought the partner in, the birthing partner, because sometimes the actual biological parent or father does not want to be in the birthing room. And I've heard many situations of this. Or, you know, there is actually no partner that wants to be part of the birth. So it's bringing the birthing partner, the support person in, whether it be one or, you know, a tribe of people, be it males, females, or family, is really how do you want the birth to go? So Gav and I, we did a.

Lot of our own research separately or, or together.

Well, he introduced me to vipassana meditation, so we happen to just always go on vipassana meditation courses together. And the books that I would read, he would read. And Hypnobirthing was one of them. That was really great. And so as a result of that, I would recommend that pregnant mamas have their partners to read that as well. Because hypnobirthing, it goes through four births and four very different births. So I've got a few resources that I share with people. And yeah, we just had open discussions and he was just on board. He was curious and he wanted to learn as well.

Did you ever have an experience where he felt anxiety or he felt fear and there needed to be a heart, heartfelt conversation about his own fear or about his own anxiety in the birth process?

I didn't feel or sense any of it during the birth, which I'm really grateful for. And again, he was at a time in his life where he was doing a lot of personal development, a lot of meditation to stay grounded. He is someone that knows himself. I would argue that we're both very stubbornly independent and we still to this day will have difficult, heartfelt conversations which aren't easy to approach, but usually it's. Usually we will grow from it. So I know that one of his fears during the birth and the pregnancy was he actually hates hospitals. So I'm sitting there going, gosh, if we've got to go to hospital, I don't want you driving because I'll be able to feel your anxiety. We didn't actually end up even sussing out the hospital that we would go to in the case of an emergency, but took responsibility that we chose not to do that. But it's also we were living in Melbourne in Australia, which is not where we live now. He's not good in cities. He's not good in driving cities. So we had to address that. It's like, well, what if this happens? That's probably the extent that it went to. But also knowing that he didn't want to be in a hospital, so he probably wouldn't have been a great support in a hospital.

Wow, that's okay. And I'm glad you're not in Melbourne now because unfortunately, it's like very, very hard that I'll put it lightly. It's a jail cell there. People are locked in, they're landlocked. Same with Canada. We live in a very triggering world, Jen, whether it's the topic of birth or whether it's the topic of healing our trauma as we say goodbye. I'm curious how you would unpack this for us as we leave the show and as we go into our lives to integrate this wisdom. If someone has a belief that is, it has to be a certain way of anything, and to even entertain secondary or third level plans is to, quote, call it in. In other words, being so dogmatic in a viewpoint that one won't even entertain a Plan B or a Plan C. What does that mean energetically to the universe? Are we so resilient and so assured in the plan working out as we say? Or how does it harm us when we're not open to Plan B's and Plan C's? I hope I asked that correctly.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm on the same wavelength as you. And I would say that this is for anything in life, but there are so many metaphors and analogies and stories, and birth is one of them for the expectations and the desires that we have. And I will bring this back to the chakra system. This is all around the crown chakra, which is about the knowing that there is a connection to a higher self, to the universe, something that is actually more powerful than what you are. And when we get really close in the crown chakra, we become very dogmatic in our belief systems. And that can come from religion. It can come from just our upbringing, our conditioning and so on. And when we don't, when we're not open to another way, one of the common things that can happen or phrases people say is, why is this happening to me? And so to embrace the crown chakra and the qualities and emotions that it governs, it's, can we let go of these belief systems knowing that we're constantly evolving? Can we be open? Can we be curious? And that is when we get the trust that there is something higher than ourselves, beyond ourselves, that spiritual connection, that energetic connection. And that's when we understand that things are happening for us rather than happening to us. So I believe that if you can open your mind to just be curious about different belief systems. And if I come back to religion, I have worked with people who have exited out of their religious communities. It's been hard because it's all they've known. But what I love is that they've been curious beyond the belief system that they've been brought up in. And life is good on the other side, but it's all unknown.

Yes. Gosh, what a great conversation. I think about all the different lanes we've gone in, and you are a podcaster yourself, and there's many interviews you've been on and people ask me this question, and it's always contextual to whatever space. Space we've been in. But what do you feel like we missed when it comes to the art, the true art form of listening to our bodies, what can you leave us with?

Well, I've really enjoyed this conversation. I feel like we could keep talking forever.

Yes.

Have we missed anything? I just want people to know that there's so many layers. You'll ask one question and there are so many different perspectives and so many different layers, and use your voice to speak up, be curious. There are going to be people that shut you down, but keep asking because someone, someone out there is going to hear you. Someone out there is going to have the answer. That's just going to open your pathway for you and come back to that deeper trust, that intuition. But communicate, Use your voice if you're able to.

Yes, communicate. To be in communion, to be able to give and receive information through a filter that's not clouded by our wounding. That's a big one. That's a tall order. So thank you for helping people do that and give us the URL for your website, let people know about the podcast, and then we'll ask a beautiful question to say goodbye.

So social media, Instagram is where I'm most active. The handle is the art of listening to your body. And I do have a podcast by the same name and I hope to get you on. And my website, I have two. But if you go to Dr. Jinongdr. J-I-N-O-N G.com then you'll be linked into all of the things that I have available.

Wonderful. You know, it's a question that I ask myself every day, sometimes multiple times a day, and it's how we end every single conversation. And I'm curious for you, with your medical background and being a mom and being a businesswoman and, like, holding all the things that you hold, how do you define wellness? What is it? What does it mean to live your life?

Well, for me, it's about having the desires and working my way towards those desires, celebrating when I achieve them, and actually expressing my sole purpose. For me, personal life and work are so intertwined. I was sharing the other day how business, personal life, and now, you know, I was training my sausage dog a couple of years ago, and I now have a horse. All of it is just so intertwined. It's the same messages, no matter what sort of realm you're working in and who you're working with, be it human or animal.

And those same messages, do they have a continuous thread? You know, these messages that you get from your animals, from your family, from your clients? What, what are those messages?

Well, it's to have a strong desire and know that you are allowed to have a desire. And it requires masculine and feminine energetics to make those desires come to fruition. And the consistent message is to be persistent, insistent, and consistent.

Let's leave it right there. Dr. Jen, thank you for coming on the show. We appreciate you so much. Thanks for sharing your gifts with us. All right, you guys, until we see you again next week, Dr. Jen and I are wishing you love and wellness. We'll talk to you then. Hey, thanks for watching the podcast. I appreciate you being here. If you haven't done so already, click the subscribe button and the little notification bell so you never miss any of this free weekly content delivered from my heart with care, right to yours. If you love this video, you'll love any of the videos on this page. Just click the one you want to watch next.