Biofeedback, Genetics, & The One Nutrition App To Save The World

Would you consider yourself to be a hardcore scientist or a scientist and an artist at the same time?

I would say the latter, but probably I'm more of a scientist for sure.

Okay, so this is cool because we're talking about wellness, technology. And how do you think, Justin, like, artism plays its role in, like, how you came out with the Axon and what this means, like being an artist and technology?

No, that's an interesting question because I feel like that was the main driver for at first. You got to be inspired. You have to have some sort of muse and, you know, just. Just doing, you know, personal training for as long as I had been doing. You start to try and get creative and make the process a little more enjoyable for your clients. And so my brain was just constantly thinking of things like improving different exercises or trying to come up with ways to find some new stimulus where I could kind of focus on that. It was just helpful to keep it enjoyable and keep my clients coming back in and focused on other things. And so, yeah, dude, I had gone through quite a few ideas before I even came up with this one. But this is one of those things where I had to be in the right place at the right time to get inspired by it. And then all of a sudden, boop, this light bulb hit me. And then I told one of my clients about it who's a patent attorney, and then, boom, we started to kind of brainstorm together.

And there's this crossroads right now, which we have all these cool devices. I feel like we're going to totally dork out today.

Oh, my God. Yeah.

But I do. I want you guys to know, like, for Wellness Force, that people don't know anything about you. My good buddy, Yaron Haddad, he's the chief scientist and the co founder of Neutrino, which is a really awesome app that's already out. And it's more than an app, it's actually helping public health policy, which is really cool. And then Justin Andrews, who you know him from Mind Pump, we had a really awesome episode already. Yeah, this is part two, buddy. This is round two. But Yaron, tell us about you, man.

A little bit, sure. So first of all, in terms of my background, so I'm a scientist by education. I'm a theoretical physicist and a mathematician. I did research on general relativity and still do physics research.

Real light stuff. Yeah, Coffee table. Coffee table, yeah.

Light reading, you know, weekend activities and.

Yeah.

And I co founded a company called Neutrino. We are a company that focuses on personalized nutrition. We invented a concept that we call footprint, which is like the digital signature of how different foods affect your body. And we try to help people identify how their body responses to different foods and help them eat better according to their own individual physique, which I loved.

I was immediately gravitated towards what he was doing because it's just like, oh my God. Now finally somebody that can make this more individualized and custom to, you know, each person because you know how many variables are out there, you know, person to person. So.

And genetic wise. Genetic wise. I mean, like, everything we've learned in the past five years. I remember five years ago I was a metabolic typing practitioner where, you know, if you were a fast oxidizer or slow oxidizer, you would get certain types of foods, but then Jane down the street would get different foods. Right. So now we have this way. Do you feel like in the nutrition field we have this way to really get a genetic sequence to see, like, what's the best food for someone to actually eat based on their genetic expression and also their epigenetics, what's going on there?

Yeah, I think genetic is super interesting. And we actually started doing stuff related to nutrigenomics in the last few months. I don't think it's the full. It's the entire story. Obviously there is much more to it, and I can explain why it cannot be the entire story, actually. But yeah, in general, I think that today, for the first time, we got to the point in which we can collect a lot of data about individuals, most of it even practically, like pretty passively. So they don't need to worry too much about manually tracking too many things and try to identify how different foods affect their bodies. And this is really kind of like a milestone both for science and for nutrition, kind of like as an industry, there is a lot that could be done that could we couldn't have done, say, 10 years ago.

Yeah. I mean, what I was so impressed by with his platform is just how many different things you incorporated into your platform. I mean, you're incorporating wearables, you know, so step counts. You're like HRV. Like you've looked at 23andMe, like these kinds of factors, like even micro biome. Can you explain all these different things? You actually.

It's like the dream dashboard.

Yeah. Like you sought it out and brought all the best stuff in one place. Sure.

I mean, it's still and I guess always a work in progress, but we kind of think of this idea of footprint as being like a layered concept. So there are A lot of different inputs that could go into it. So first of all, Nutrino, as a company cares about anything that might either be affected by nutrition or may affect metabolism. Now, as you know, obviously this practically means everything, right? Everything related to health.

Right.

So we created this platform that collects a lot of different data from a lot of different inputs. Today we have over 100 different data streams that we're collecting. So I'll just mention a few, but it's information, obvious information about nutrition, physical activity, sleep data. Trying to collect those passively through wearable devices. Information from medical devices. So one of my favorites, continuous glucose monitors. Information from insulin pumps for people who are living with diabetes and are using insulin pumps. Information about like medical records, blood tests, genetics, heart rate variability, temperature, menstrual cycle and more.

Wow.

God, man, it's like the full cornucopia.

What else do we really need right now? Because I think a lot of people understand tech and this is what I'm really stoked to get in with you guys on. Everybody sees the data sets, but then what do you do once you have the data? Like, okay, I walked 10,000 steps, so the fuck what, right? What do you do now?

Yeah, you need a program.

Yeah, I got my 23andMe. I got it sequenced through, you know, Prometheus and I understand that I have this certain genotype. But now what, what do you guys feel about crossing this bridge between having the data and then knowing what to do with it?

I feel like that's a definite important thing to consider because you can get biofeedback in so many different forms, but if it's not something that you're actually applying towards improvement and you're consistent with and, and you're really paying attention and tracking, because I know a lot of people will wear things just because it's cool and you know, it's like the new Apple watch. It's new technology, you know, you get excited about it. And I'm totally guilty of this, right, because I love gadgets and I love, you know, the stuff. But you know, there, there's been a few things that if I'm actually training clients, I know I'm going to get great result from just from them really focusing on it. And step count was a big one because I feel like a lot of people really don't understand how little they move at certain points of the day or on the weekend, you know, perhaps. And then also along with that, like the movement isn't there, but then again, their eating habits, you know, also like, it's this perfect storm of, like, you know, on the weekends or, you know, like, most people get kind of caught up into this where they're not moving, they're. They're making, you know, worse, you know, eating decisions, and then they're trying to figure this out throughout the week, and they're trying to hustle through workouts and they're trying to do good, do good, do good. But when all I have to do is little micro tweaks that they will see almost immediate benefit from. So I feel like there's few things and you want to really kind of limit it to. I mean, I'm not saying that you have to limit it, but like, one to three things is a good kind of a focus point. You know, if you're getting proper sleep, you know, if you're drinking adequate amounts of water, you know, little, little small, achievable things like that, and just kind of start with there and see if you're consistent and sleep.

So it's like eat, move, sleep. Because our thoughts, feelings, and actions, they get adjusted to do those things more efficiently. But if we're not eating and moving and sleeping, just doing, like, the basic fundamental things that we all sound so ridiculous. Like, how crazy is it that the same technology that's made us sedentary, that's taken us away from being active and eating, moving, and sleeping, we're now on the other side of the sword where it's cutting and it's giving us back the accountability that it took away from us? I feel like this duality exists right now.

Yeah, I think that's the exciting part. It's like, okay, we realized, we've cautioned everybody with this new technology. There's just this sort of negative aura around technology because we've been so, like, focused on it, and we realize there's addictive properties to it, but it's not going away. And, you know, we can actually start repurposing that, that. That same platform and creating outlets to have people do healthier things, like get better sleep, move, be more active. Just. Just the thought process around it. You can kind of take that sort of addictive quality. And now let's. Let's spread that out and do something positive with it.

And I want to come back to you, too, man, because you have so many years in health and fitness, and we kind of had this conversation about what needs to change in the fitness industry, which you guys talk about so much on Mind Pump. But I want to learn a little bit more about your background. You're on because you're a she, you're a data scientist, you had a health journey of your own. You went through quite the transformation.

Yeah.

Can you share that with us, man? Because it was for me on the phone. I took a breath. It was a really interesting story.

Sure. Thank you. Yeah. So I used to suffer from a lot of different health related problems when I was younger. At some point it just drove me literally crazy. I was trying to do whatever I could in order to fix that. And I got exposed kind of like to the world of nutrition. I started reading about nutrition and I remember reading the first book and it recommended eating in a certain way. And I tried. I actually avoided dairy products. I was 16 at the time. And within a few weeks I started feeling so much better. All of a sudden, complete life change. And that was fascinating. And I had to understand how can something so simple can make such a big impact on my quality of life. So I remember going with my dad to the local bookstore. He was cool enough to just buy me like all the books in the nutrition shelves, like more than 30 books. I read all of them. And as you know, in the world of nutrition, every single book tells you practically to eat differently. And I didn't know what to do, so I actually decided to just try it. Kind of like do like AN N equals 1. N equals 1. Self experimentation. And I tried 24 diets for about three and a half years.

24 diets?

Yep.

Wow.

Holy.

You went all in, man.

Got a little carried away with this, right? Yeah, yeah.

And how long did you spend on each diet?

It changed, but at least a month.

For, for all of them, pretty good time trial. 30 days. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

For some of them. I gave it like four months. Yeah. And I've been. So eventually what worked best for me, and I, I like to say that worked well for me. It doesn't mean necessarily it will work well for everybody, but what worked best was a vegan diet. So I've been a vegan since. So since I was 19, since 2001. Way before it was popular in any way.

Are you raw vegan 100% or just vegan?

Just vegan, not raw vegan.

Got it. So what happened then with your breakthrough where you found that, what was the bridge between you going, oh my gosh, I found health. I'm a vegan now. I'm going to create this company that's going to serve millions of people. I mean, that's like an overnight thing.

Yeah. So a few years after that, so I started studying, I studied math and physics. I was always fascinated by the applications of mathematics in general and science to technology. And I was always like. I kept being kind of like, trying to be on top of what's happening in nutrition. And while I was in grad school, I was looking at the nutrition literature and the industry in general, and it felt like it's still not shifting. And I was like, this doesn't make any sense. It has to change the way it works or the way it used to work. And now there are a lot of companies trying to make this shift, which I'm very happy about. It didn't represent what it is that, like, humanity could do for nutrition. So at some point, I started as a project just for fun with Jonathan. Jonathan Lipnick, who is my partner in Neutrino. And at some point, it actually turned into a company, and I decided not to continue in academia and not to do a postdoc. I had some postdoc offers in physics and. Yeah. And just decided to do it full time.

Man, this is blowing me away because it's almost like it found you. Like you said, I didn't really know it was gonna happen. This came through you.

Yeah.

So now what are you trying to achieve? Like, what's your number one mission? If you could snap your fingers and overnight it appeared, what would that look like?

So stated, kind of like formally for, like, the. The mission of Neutrino. And this is really my passion is to. What I like to say, to call. To solve the problem of conflicting nutritional advice. So to help people find a source or sources for reliable information about nutrition, that it will also represent the fact that we can actually measure for the first time in history, how foods affect their bodies.

That's powerful, man. I've been waiting for this.

You know, that's the ultimate tweetable right there.

Yeah.

And I'm also thinking about too, like, I know at San Diego State. I've walked the halls there. It's sponsored by Kellogg's. It's sponsored by these companies that have a direct interest on what the academia is actually teaching. So the curriculum is funded by companies. And you don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to make the connection.

No, all you got to do is follow the money.

And follow the money.

Unfortunately, there's that part of it. Right. And that's. That's where a lot of the misinformation comes from. And just the lack of real scientific, you know. You know, scientists coming in and really taking all of these variables and really, like, taking in a lab setting and doing due diligence with it and not, you know, being funded by, you know, a specific company a and, you know, shenanigan wise. So we've been battling this stuff, like even on Mind Pump. So this is, this has been like one of our big, big topics that constantly comes up.

Have you talked about what the health yet? Yes, we have. Okay, yeah, we'll just link that in the show. Notes. Yeah, we'll link that in the show.

You can go check it out on Mind Pump. We get real, real on that episode. But yeah, just, it just gets frustrating because you want people to have good information and you really want them to not get strayed into this, this trap. And you just see this, like, I saw this, like consistently with all my clients. I would have them hooked and consistent and doing healthy things and, you know, really enjoying the process. And then you would get some stupid article or something, you know, from, you know, Health magazine, you know, where it would come out, where so and so's doing this, this sort of, you know, starvation technique that, you know, involves cayenne peppers. And now I have to explain why, you know, it's probably not a good idea.

Right.

So it's just, man, it's just like the misinformation. So to have somebody like Yaron kind of, you know, coming in from his background in science and taking, you know, real tangible metrics that we can like prove, like, look, you know, this is what's really going on when you're eating this. And I'm so excited about that, man.

And I'm stoked to talk about Axon and how this plays into the wellness wheel because we're all looking at quantification.

Yeah.

So the numbers don't lie. Your neighbor might.

What?

The health might lie, but the data, the quantification of data doesn't lie. So on the table we have a few devices. There's a recovery device from a company called Power Dot. There's this new device that I want to talk to you guys about called Neurovalence Modius. And it activates the vestibular nerve, which then down regulates our appetite. So it upregulates leptin. And then there's the muse right here for meditation. Now you're on. Tell us about this one because it almost looks like a tricorder from Star Trek.

Scio is a mini spectrometer that can measure nutritional information of food by scanning it. Wow.

You can scan it within like 90% accuracy or what's the accuracy on it?

So I won't state any accuracies. This is their product.

But think about how disruptive this is.

This table contains enough brain power that would have fueled five spaceships in the 1960s. Seriously. Yeah, right. And there's a cell phone there, too. So it's like we look at how we can combine these data sets. Tell us about the Axon, man. Where was this genesis from?

That.

And also give people a little background on the training. We were both trainers at 24. I think they already heard a little bit about your story on the episode where we did in Austin. Oh, yeah. But tell people a little bit about your background and the bridge to create Axon.

Yeah, I mean, I've been a personal trainer for well over 12 years or so now. And like, I. I went through, like, I was a junkie for getting new knowledge, and I was looking for the latest and greatest modality that was out there. And so I'm on the show. I'm kind of more on Mind pump. I'm the host that's a little more interested in, like, unconventional training and was really introducing a lot of mobility concepts to the guys. And we've been. It's been an awesome process because I've been sort of removed from the bodybuilding world and from physique and all, you know, that kind of a setting. And to be able to kind of influence that setting and show them, like, hey, here's some techniques and here's some mobility practices that you can include while you're also pursuing these other interests. This is going to benefit your whole body and help to, you know, get integrity in your joints and, you know, all these aches and pains and things like that you can avoid. And so just going through the process with that, like, I. I was introduced to a concept. I've done yoga before, and I actually, one of my friends, he did a stick yoga class, and this was in Santa Cruz. And Dr. Fagenholtz, I believe he came up with this whole concept based off of, like, using a bamboo stick that his actually, you can bend, but you can get in all these interesting yoga positions. And what was so fascinating about it was yoga tends to have sort of. It's this interesting sort of exercise, Right. Somebody has to hold a pose, but unless there's a mirror in front of them, are they holding it the specific way the instructor showing them?

And how is the instructor going to train 30 people at once?

Yeah, and they're like, they're trying to have this feedback. So a lot of times the instructor kind of has to come adjust them a little bit and try and put them in position and it's like this, this foreign object in their head, like, how do I move my body like this? And. But they know that they have to get back and rotate a little bit to get into that position. But anyway, there was no real direction with it other than being able to watch what the instructor is doing. So what was interesting about this sticky yoga class is like, now all of a sudden you have sort of an access point, and I have an access point that I can sort of direct my body into and then I can orient my body to rotate in a specific way to, you know, find that. Find that position easier and then get into that position and sort of tense up and solidify that position. And so that sort of led into my friends that took the course. They all kind of repurposed a lot of the ideas and also incorporated, because I come from more of a sports training background and these guys did as well. So they actually ended up incorporating a lot more of these athletic mobility type flexibility techniques. And so it was cool. I went and I was like seeing their thought process with it. And so I did a couple of their classes that they came up with and they created a whole system around it. But there was something that really stuck out for me personally in the class. And I was doing certain moves and then I would get into isometric positions. And now I had a stick to really enhance that process and feel this overall muscular tension that I hadn't really felt because I wasn't really communicating on that level. I wasn't able to produce that intrinsically. And this was the first time I was like, wow. Wait, what? You know, it started to kind of. Something clicked and from then on I. It just kind of stuck with me. I was like, wow. You know, what would be really great is. And this is usually how people come up with, you know, inventions. Right. So it was like, it'd be really great if I really knew what force I was producing.

Yeah. You know, quantify.

Right, let's quantify this.

So were you seeing something with clients? I mean, because I can't tell you how many people might have had, you know, a plank or something they were trying to hold isometrically. But there's no way to quantify a plank.

No.

How do you do that?

But, you know, it's hard. You know, things are happening, but, you know, it's hard.

Like, like you might know on a weight stack, there's 70 pounds. 70 pounds is always going to be 70 pounds. So you can multiply it by reps. But with the axon, what does it actually Do. I mean, it measures the tension of the force output.

Right. So, yeah, all. All of your intrinsic forces. Like, so when I'm. When I'm tensing my body up and then basically communicating to my body, I need to produce this to accomplish this movement or move this object away from my body. You literally have to open up that communication process and get the neuromuscular recruitment process. And I kept thinking about that because bringing back to old NASM OPT model kind of days where it was great that they sort of started you off with that. Right.

Stabilization strength and power. For all the trainers listening, which I think they added a new module.

Believe.

I'm not sure.

Did they?

I believe.

I don't know. I'm out of the loop.

Okay.

But, yeah, so I was like, wow, this is something that so many people just jump right over completely, and they never take the time to figure out how to produce certain movements, how to communicate that process more effectively, and what are the proper recruitment patterns that I want, what are the favorable ones? And, you know, from there, that's what is the foundation. That's what's the core that we build off of. And, you know, a lot of people don't realize when they're doing exercises, you know, unless you build that communication line. Like, let's say I'm doing a row, and I'm never really feeling that, you know, my rhomboid. I'm never really getting that full shoulder retraction. I'm just pulling with my bicep and. And I'm. And I'm pulling, you know, effectively. My body gets really efficient in that movement because, you know, that's what I'm.

I'm.

You know, I'm trying to get better. And I'm telling my body that this is a movement that I need to get stronger at, but you're getting stronger in the wrong place and. And you're solidifying the wrong pattern. So that's where I was just like, okay, whoa. Like, this is something that I can actually use is, like, corrective. This is something that I can use to teach people, like, from the very beginning. Like, you know, here are the proper ways to, you know, like, recruit this. This process and move in this direction and get your joints to work this way. And then, you know, from there, you know, you can also use it for just workouts. And isometrics are an old technique that people pretty much forgot about.

Yeah. And they're super effective. And if you're listening to this, we're gonna do a YouTube series where Justin's Gonna take us through some of these movements. But it's not just isometrics, it's also mobility. So we've all done the PVC shoulder stretch where we've put it over our head. And there's some other fundamental, some regular cat swings and things like this. But what are the key movements with this axon? It looks rad, by the way. It's bamboo. I don't know if that was your design. It looks so good.

Yeah, it took a while to get to this point, so I'm actually really happy with this. This is what it's going to end up looking like. So. Yeah, so some of the fundamental movements, you know for sure that, that sold me on the concept was the squat. And so just like pressing the stick up into an overhead position, like whether it's the frame of your door or maybe a low hanging ceiling, just to all of a sudden now irradiate and get that muscular tension all over my body while I'm, while I'm dropping down into a squat. Man. It's very fascinating to feel how comfortable your body gets in depth with that. So it was a great teaching exercise using the stick because I would see if they're really producing, you know, this, this tension in this force that I want them to produce, because that's something that, you know, even as a trainer, if I'm coaching somebody in a squat, I'm like, okay, you know, if you're just doing a bodyweight squat, I want you to really squeeze and we're going to make, you know, you know, really emphasize the tension of this. You know, it's something that I could say, but I can't really see. So that's been really helpful because I've noticed too, like, just the joints are more comfortable. It puts them at ease. When you're that supported with, you know, your neuromuscular recruitment there, it's like everything's okay. And so like, even getting into depth gets easier.

And it's logged. I mean, everything's in an app. So you can see over the course of 30 days or 60 days or 90 days how someone's actually getting better.

Yeah.

Instead of just using weight as the measurement. So how does it help with posture, though? I think most people, probably 8 out of 10 people suffer from poor posture.

Oh, absolutely. Like just getting into, you know, better positions and getting like. For me to, to use this for shoulder mobility has been huge because certain techniques, and I've learned a lot of these, these types of techniques from Dr. Andrew Ospina and his system with FRC but, you know, it's. It's very complementary tool for, you know, that training as well. But he has really interesting ways to address mobility and to regain function in the joints. So to just get, you know, better posture, it. There's moves that I will coach through the app that I will show people. Like, here's how, you know, I want your shoulders, I want them retracted, depressed. You know, I want your chin tucked. I want, you know, all these sort of points. I can put you in a position using the stick and then we can also turn that into an exercise where you're producing this force that you're basically hardwiring that.

Now the lights illuminate so that someone's using it on a particular exercise over the course of time. The lights will illuminate or will it tell the app that they've reached that certain force production limit?

Yeah, so both. So you get feedback from the actual light. So what's cool is you don't really need the app necessarily if you know all the movements.

So the device will store everything inside.

Yes.

Ah, yeah.

And then you can upload it later or. Yeah, the app will actually capture that, like, you know, automatically. But yeah, so it's really cool that on the stick itself, like, I wanted it to stand alone and I wanted people to be able to use it and just follow this, this light sequence. And, you know, this is really where. So my engineer, he's. He's brilliant. He just like, can come up, like, I can tell him all these things I want and then we. We sit and figure it out. And then he literally, like in his workshop, at his house, he just tinkers.

And he makes it so he sounds like Archimedes.

Yeah, dude, he's, he's. He's up there, man. Like, he's, he's got skills. So it's been awesome. Cause, like, for me, like, the most, I've done a lot of different projects and this is the one that I was like, oh, my God, I think I'm onto something finally. You know, I feel like this is really something, like, everybody could benefit from, which really excites me. But the feedback part of it coming back to that, you'll actually get a goal target light. So there's a sequence where initially you make contact and then this yellow light kind of shoots out. And so it's ramping up in this strength curve. And so it's going to come up in the sequence. And now I'm going to chase. I'm going to chase it by pressing harder on the stick or Pulling harder on the stick to meet and match where that target is. And you know you can exceed it. But you know, the closer you are to that target, you know, the more effective whatever exercise I have prescribed for you is.

Yeah.

And then also the ability to control, you know, that central nervous system on and ramp it down slowly too. So it's not just about how much tension I can produce.

Yeah.

It's also, can I hold and sustain that and can I also let off of it with control?

Who would you say this is for, man? Because when I hear you speak and you're on, maybe you can attest to this. Some people, they get really excited about how novel something is. The newness, the freshness, the coolness. And I look at this and I'm like, wow, it activates my inner dork. But a lot of people, I would say, like most people are looking to let go of weight or get more energy. Like that's the ultimate goal they want.

Sure.

How does that relate to them doing one of those two things?

Okay, so this is a good point because for me, I can geek out and I can over talk. Like, I mean there's just so many applications that I can sort of get lost in. Like, oh, it's great for sports performance. Oh my God. You know.

Yeah.

Like these type of people over here can benefit from it, you know, rehabilitation. And as far as like your general person, like just list, you know, something easy to focus on. Like, I like to think about what technology has done so far. And I've seen some companies do this in a cool way where let's just focus on, you know, movement in terms of steps. Let's, let's focus on maybe our heart rate, you know, let's optimize our heart rate. Let's focus on, you know, like some of these other like real basic things that are real, like ease to entry type type, things to accomplish. So this would fall into that category by kind of producing maybe four or five sort of staple movements throughout the day that when you think of it, you grab the stick, you push on it, you pull on it and you get credit for it and you build off of that. I mean, it's as simple as that. Like if you did that all the time, you're going to build strength and you're going to, it's going to keep ramping up and building and building and you can, you can tangibly see that and your numbers will increase and that you'll see how that will translate into your motivation, into your energy, into wanting to do more you know, rigorous activities. But, you know, for me, if I can get people to just start by doing, like, you know, three or four things every day consistently, and build upon that just very slowly, it'll be enormous. It'll be a huge deal.

I can't think of how many clients and, you know, maybe people that start a nutrition journey, they try to do 10 things all at once. And then when too many things try to change, nothing ever changes.

Right?

So I believe that it's like you said, picking maybe one thing, one thing, one thing. There you go. One movement, the squat, whatever it is. How does that relate. You're on to nutrition. When people are looking at changing their nutrition for the better, for the long term, how does that first step look like? What have you seen the data reflect? I mean, since we're at this intersection of data and behavior change, like, what data is actually yielding what types of behavior change from a nutritional standpoint?

Yeah, super interesting.

It's a really huge, massively loaded question.

Take your time.

Go ahead and solve the world's problems quickly.

Yeah, I think it's a great question. It applies to all of health and fitness and specifically nutrition. You see a lot of people who are trying to make these huge changes in their lifestyles that are typically not sustainable. It's very, very difficult to completely change your lifestyle, eat completely differently, you know, the next day, while maintaining it for. For, say, multiple years. So one of the things that we noticed that work much better, and this is something that you guys know much better than I do, is that making actually smaller changes is typically more sustainable. So as you make a small change, you feel like you're succeeding. If this small change is a change that is actually helping you feel better, that you can actually measure in one way or another how this change affects your body in a positive way, then even more so you feel successful, you feel better about that change, and then it's easier to implement more changes in your. In your diet plan, in your nutrition. And those are typically the kind of things that work better for the long term in terms of, like, the behavioral change aspect. So I'm a big fan and advocate of the use of continuous glucose monitors for nutrition.

Can't wait to try this out. I know, man.

I've been wanting to.

I can't wait to try this out.

So we. One of the things that we noticed and just. I mean, for the record, we do not sell continuous glucose monitors. Right. My company is a software company. We work with continuous glucose monitor manufacturers.

They're on your platform, right?

They are Correct.

Dexcom.

So there are three devices, three companies that manufacture these devices. It's Medtronic, Dexcom and Abbott Diabetes. And our platform can use data from all three of them. We also have very, very good partnership with Medtronic. We launched with them the footprint for people who are living with diabetes about a year ago and got unbelievable clinical outcomes already, like real world evidence of outcomes regarding reduction of hypoglycemia. And a part of it is actually related to what you were mentioning, which is the ability of people to actually visualize and see how it is that different foods affect them. Okay. So all of a sudden you're used to eating like in a certain way, and all of a sudden every time you eat a meal a few hours afterwards, you can actually see the response. Or sometimes in real time, you can actually see the response of that meal on your body. Right. It's only one biomarker, but it's a very important biomarker. Glucose.

That's a powerful one.

And the result, it's fascinating. First of all, there is a huge variability between people. So if you and I will eat the same things, we're gonna see different responses.

Man. This is exactly what Rob Wolf talked about in his book. Yeah.

In his book Wired and so Wired.

To eat, he did 30 days of like a very kind of squeaky clean paleo diet, but then he did a seven day carb test and he documented this on Instagram with his wife. His wife ate rice. He ate rice. I think he had like a125 or like130 glucose. And then same thing with cookies and bananas. So one person can eat food, fruit or starches, and it'll affect them in.

Terms of glycemic index on his head, 50 points difference.

So we're all unique. Everybody's got this thumbprint on the outside. We are metabolically unique on the inside as well. And so how does the data reflect that? And do you ever think in any way that data will drive our decisions from a virtual coach?

I'm absolutely sure the data will drive our decisions eventually working towards that goal. I hope this day will come close sooner than later. But you can actually see this happening. So from, I mean, the data, you can see fascinating things in the data. And I'll just give you some examples. You can see individuals are eating things like chocolate or ice cream, which barely affects your glucose levels. And you're like, when you look at that, you're like, there must have been a mistake. Right. But then you actually see that the data is consistent. If A certain individuals when they eat, say I'm actually I'm lucky enough to be able to eat dark chocolate without it Basically almost doesn't affect my glute.

Wow. Kind of hate you. Kind of hate him a little bit.

So I think that's the variability between people is one of the most fascinating things there.

And it plugs in from eat, move and sleep. So movement with the Axon, quantifying progress. Eating with neutrino and with cgm quantifying progress. Sleep with possibly the Oura ring. I noticed that you brought one. I'm actually going to have either Harpreet or their CEO on the show because I love what this ring is doing. I've been using the Blaze for a long time and we kind of dorked out a little bit in person on this. I think that a watch isn't for everyone, especially women. Like, women don't like wearing these big microwaves with a strap on their wrist.

So what do you feel? Like spaceship one earlier.

So what do you guys feel? I mean, popcorn. Like, what is going to be the thing that will really fit everyone? Or does everyone need their own unique thing like the Oura ring?

I think accessorizing first. Yeah, right. I think like, you know, actually embedding chips and things like that. Like, that's, that's way beyond, like, I think like just to get everybody sort of comfortable for a while. Like it's still going to look a lot like jewelry or you know, something else, like on your clothes or, you know, like they're gonna get real creative, you know, first from that angle. Plus, you know, you can, you can develop cool products that way. But yeah, definitely all the sensors are coming up with now. It's very cool because it's not like back when they first kind of introduced a lot of these things, it was like a lot of manual entries and like I had to tell, you know, the whatever device like this is like how many steps I actually did and you actually had to plug that in. So I think that we' come like really far away really fast with all these sensors. So it's gonna be interesting.

Don't you guys also feel like the more user inputs, AKA the less seamless it is for the person, the more complicated and more progressive the software has to be. Oh my God. Because making it seamless, right? And you know this from the Axon maybe? Yes, making it seamless.

It's glad to be around people that.

Do understand that someone might be like, oh, just turn on a lever so that it'll upload my Stuff automatically.

What they don't realize it's taking too long to Download. Yeah.

There's 624 lines of content code you have to write for that one change. Right. So I think that's the hard part. But what do you guys see for the dream dashboard here? Like, is it going to be something where we're putting in activity data, blood glucose data, ubiome data, getting everything from any kind of test portal that we can to where then we have an algorithm and an AI that coaches us and we get to name our coach and they walk us through our day. I mean, do you believe that's what it's going to be?

I think that's exactly how it's going to be. So already today, one of the things that Neutrino is doing is providing like personalized meal plans for individuals depending on all of those data streams that I mentioned before. So taking into account people's profiles and providing like complete customization on every single aspect from taste, food allergies, dietary needs, and also obviously people's footprints, how they actually respond to foods. And we like to do this coaching. I mean, we are focusing on nutrition, so we do like meal plans, grocery lists, personalized menus from restaurants, healthy tips, depending on your footprint and so on. But I think that the day is not very far until this happens kind of like universally across healthcare.

Dan Pardee has created human os, which I've mentioned, I think, to both of you, I'm not sure. And he's tying in a lot of proactive data around ancestral health and basic movement and living patterns with qs. So bringing in the data and the natural, primal living. Now, there's two schools of thought here because Mark Sisson is very anti technology. Right. I was gonna say we butted heads on the Wellness Force show because he was like, why do I need a device to tell me what to do? And it's like, because we live in an age of technology. I understand your argument in the past, but we don't live in our world.

Why don't we live in houses? And it's the very same killing beasts outside.

Then it's the very same people that, like, might use their smartphone and get Amazon go to deliver organic lettuce that might say, I don't need a tracker to track my steps. Well, it's like you're already using technology in some way. Yeah. So what do you think, Justin? Like, how do we transcend people's negativity around tech?

Wow, that's a good question. Yeah, I think, I think just like, man, the more education that we can put out there as far as, like, what's coming out and, you know, the advancements that, you know, a lot of people. I think that there's a lot of synergy right now behind people that are in the health and wellness industry that are like, how can we reach more people? How can we get our voice louder? Because it's been so much just shenanigans that people, I think they don't trust a lot of the information that's being fed to them constantly on Facebook and, you know, these social channels. And there's still a lot of shucksters out there. So I think that once people realize who's legit, who's not, and they kind of feel comfortable about, you know, the message behind it, I think there's going to be a lot more acceptance with a lot of these techniques because they are. They are reaching you in a different way. They're providing metrics that you can get more insight about yourself. Like, you know, if you go into any program, any. Anybody that's coaching you, what do they have you do? First track everything. They want you to know, you know, what you're doing, whether you're journaling. But the more you know about yourself, the more power you have as a person. And that's just something that technology helps to, like, increase. It increases and expands on how much you know about yourself. And it. It's all about how you use it, you know, to your benefit. And you shut it off when you need to shut it off. But, you know, you pay attention to the right metrics. And so I think it's the right dosage for sure. I think that people need to find the right dosage for it and shut off all the unnecessary technology.

And I understand the pushback too, because it's like, well, people have been living for millennia. Why do we need technology to tell us what to do for our health behaviors? I truly believe it's because we are not in that land anymore. Like, the land has fully 180 flipped. We use technology more than we ever have in our entire lives. And I don't know if it's ever going to be the same ever again. Actually, I do know it's not gonna be the same ever again. So adapting to this and understanding, like, let's go over some of these devices because I think people will get a lot of value specifically out of this device. For the power.it's muscle stim. And if you've ever done muscle stim, it's so relaxing. It Increases blood flow, it decreases lactic acid. But that's a great device. The one next to it, though, I'm gonna interview. This is actually an investor in this company is Tom Bilyeu, who I know you've interviewed on mindpump. And this is Neurov business mind. And so this goes on the head kind of like this, and then you attach the leads on the back and they go right on your vestibular nerve. And that's essentially. I haven't tried it for more than three days here. But we're looking at technology down regulating people's bad habits. So if somebody's stressed out and they're having all these and they're having like a lack of leptin signaling, which is like that full signal and they have too much ghrelin and they're not sleeping enough. Do you guys feel like something, if this was clinically proven, would be something that you would personally use in your lives?

I would definitely experiment with it. Yeah. I mean, if it does what it says it does. And, you know, that's the thing, like, there's so many things coming out that are like getting more insight about how the brain operates and how much of your health is determined by your brain functioning properly and being healthy and all those, like, connections are made. And so, you know, if that's just another way to enhance that process, at least to learn it, you know, at least to teach my brain to create this pattern. And that wasn't there before. You know, I'm open to it.

So do you meditate?

I do. I just started. You know what? I actually use Wim Hof's techniques.

Oh, yeah.

So I'll do that with my wife and it's been really helpful.

Have you ever passed out?

No.

Okay. I cried pretty hard at Mark Devinez.

But I definitely lost my body for a minute.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah.

You can transcend through breath. I mean, breath is like one of the most powerful things. I don't know. Yaron, if you've ever done anything from a tracking perspective and wellness and mindfulness or breathing, what do you do?

I do meditation and yoga. So meditation.

He's enlightened sometimes.

Do you quantify your enlightenment or you just move towards the path?

I just moved towards the path of enlightenment out of the dark side.

I feel like, for me, it's good. I don't know if you guys can relate to this. You know, when something's tracked and I can see over the course of time, like when I notice my meditation and I'm in my Alpha 2 brainwave, which is that calm state through the muse. I just feel better about it. I feel better about myself.

Yeah, yeah.

What do you think about the construct of putting these external frameworks of these mirrors of mindfulness that just remind you and guide you along the way? Do you think that that's going to be something that will apply to all people at some point?

Well, to go back to, you know, meditation practices, like the way that I forget, I think it was like Sal's girlfriend that kind of mentioned this, but it was an interesting thought that I'm really, I'm creating space that way. A lot of times, you know, our input and our stimulus, like we're just getting so much. We're getting bombarded with this excess of, you know, constant stimulation to create space again, you know, it's energizing. It's peaceful, it's. It really helps to sort of balance it out. And it just sounds so basic of a concept that people, I guess, you know, once you actually focus on it, you reap the benefits from it. So I thought that was, you know, once I, once I kind of, I'm really, you know, more of a performance minded guy. So, like that it took me a long time to get to where I could meditate because I'm, you know, go.

Go, go, go, go.

I want to, I want to crush the day. And you know, it's that athletic, athletic mind that I've always had where I'm just like, you know, I got to meet the challenge and do, do, do all the stuff. But you can't do meditation, you know, like, you can't, like, you have to like release. And I had to learn that. And that was something that was like a foreign object to me.

I think what you're saying is exactly the reason why we're in a different land. Back in the day when you didn't have to meditate, people just would.

Yeah, there was nothing going on.

Yeah, there was no meditation weekends. You know, the pasanas weren't that old because people just knew that that was most important to refuel the body, to sleep, to let the mind sleep. And Doc Parsley talked about this. Creating a barrier from your environment. That's what real true sleep is. So how do you think tech can help us create a barrier? I'm curious about this. Like, what tech out there can block our distraction because attention is the new currency. So how can we, how can we save our attention for ourselves using tech? I mean, I know there's apps like Retimer and things like this to help Us, Right.

To shut off.

To shut off. So, you know, I don't know, I wanted to throw it out there because this is a cool discussion around this wellness and technology and just like being a better human. Can we all just be better humans, please? Yeah, I think that's what we're trying to do.

It's better to live with better humans.

Right. I think that generally technology that would help you. You know, we're talking about quantifying all these different things if you can in any way. And I was using an app, I don't remember the name, but to try and measure how many times I check my emails a day, which is like.

Hundreds, man, I don't even want to look at that data.

Little dopamine hits like all day.

Exactly. So like if technology could also quantify what it is that we do with technology that we don't necessarily have to do, it doesn't necessarily serve the interests of all the companies out there, but some for sure, then that could be a way of helping us, you know, get more peace and quiet and sort.

Of weeding out all the unnecessary usage. Yeah, I like that. If they could figure that out, like what is optimal and what to focus on, you know, throughout your day, yeah, that'd be interesting.

But there's, I think there's very little happening in that direction. I have, I haven't so too, they.

All want to get you hooked. I think that's the goal.

Great word. That brings up Nir Eyal. He's the author of Hooked Habit forming products. And I remember from the interview, you know, it's funny, we all go through our journeys like, you know, you're on. You formed Neutrino through your journey. I formed Wellness Force. I let go of like £80. I know you've had transformations in your life. He had a transformation where the very thing he taught is the exact, it's the exact thing he's learning. And the thing he's learning was as I became more busy and as I became a speaker and popular, I was on my phone more. I was actually doing the things that I was lecturing on people not to do. And that's how he figured out his hooked model can easily happen and it can easily happen. So this way that technology can distract us from the current moment. I think this is the most important thing beyond any tool we have. It's the intention behind the tool. If the intention is not pure or if we're just using the tech because it's cool or whatever it might be, that's actually going to be, I think, way more harmful than not using tech at all.

Yeah. If it's distracting and it's not really benefiting you and you're not utilizing what its intent is because at the end.

Of the day, like people are trying to let go of weight, be healthier. What it is technology, I believe, will continue to increase. All these apps, everybody's got apps, everybody's got devices, they're all attacking our attention bank. So how do we spend that attention ourselves? I think it's through having life practices where we might use the very same technology that could distract us to keep us fulfilled, to keep us confident on what we're actually doing. Do you guys have key apps or devices? I mean, obviously you're pretty partial to the Axon.

Yeah.

Do you have anything besides the Axon that's really made an impact for you in staying present and just being in.

The moment, being present. Well, I was about to wrap off a bunch of fitness apps.

Well, that's present when you're working out, right?

Yeah, well, just, just tracking wise, like, I mean, Fat Secret was one of them. Just that gives you a little more insight as to, you know, macronutrient breakdowns and you know, just, just overall just, you know, the list of what was available, it's just, it's impressive to me, you know, in your own. Just like to look through like what they've got as far as like data now. It's just like they're pulling from all these restaurants. Like it's, it's so, it's so awesome to see because you can really pre plan anywhere you go. Like, you know, like at this restaurant, like if you have certain conditions or you know, like I have to, I have to like have certain types of foods. Like I can really find it, you know, effectively now. So, you know, apps like that, that help you sort of strategize better about your, your eating habits and your schedule when you're traveling. And that's really helpful. Brain FM has been a real impactful app for me and I use. What's interesting is like I gravitate immediately to the focus program that's on there because I just love, I mean I drink a lot of coffee, so Coffee, so much fun. I just love the stimulants. So that was like my initial things like, oh man, so awesome for that. And then I realized I was like, I should probably be doing like guided meditation or you know, try. I try out the sleep in the sleep I'm still kind of working through, but the meditation has been game changer for me and just to be able to have a little bit of a guidance, a guided experience with that, as well as the breathing that I mentioned earlier. Really, for me, being so driven, Driven, driven to produce. The biggest game changers are slowing down, being mindful, all those types of apps and practices that I can incorporate.

I actually got Brain fm. I remember Adam mentioned it. We're in Austin, and I used it, and I think I worked for two hours one day, and I forgot I was working just from having it on because it's music mixed with binaural beats.

Yeah.

Which I can't think of something more cool to listen to.

Right.

Because when I work, I get distracted. If I know the song, I'll start singing along with the song. And so from a behavior change standpoint, you know, there's all these tools and everything. I think it's just really about people taking a breath and saying, hey, which one feels right? Like, which one do I want to explore? Because there's no have to. You don't have to use any of this stuff.

Oh, no, give it a fair shot. You know, like, if it interests you, go for it.

It's like, put on the sweater, see if it itches. And these data sets that we see around people trying on their sweaters with Neutrino, it's an app company that has an app, but it's not really an app company. It's more of a data aggregate company. This is what you shared with me. And whether people use devices or not, data that is collected through these continuous glucose monitors and different pieces, like, what does that actually mean for the long term of public health policy? How do we use data to drive public health policy, which will really do what we're all here for, which is to affect massive change for millions of people.

Now we're talking about digital health.

I love this question. I'm prepping. Yeah. So I think kind of like, for us, you know, I was talking before about, like, solving or trying to help solve the problem of conflicting nutritional advice. A big part of it is not only. Obviously not only consumers and not only food companies and not only the healthcare industry. There are a lot of different pieces, and two very important parts of this entire puzzle are professionals. So we're talking about nutritionists, dietitians can also be trainers, and the other one is researchers. And today it's fairly difficult to actually do nutrition research. And that's one of the reasons why nutrition. I mean, one of the many reasons why nutrition is such a mess. It's very difficult to collect A lot of data on individuals. These kind of studies are extremely expensive and I would love to see Neutrino facilitating the work of researchers also to use all the data that we gathered, obviously anonymously and the tools and the different analytical tools to help researchers understand how different food affect people and use that afterwards in public policy eventually when the time comes. But it's like kind of like a.

Long term goal and stay pure and not evil. Right. Because you've had like food companies and you know, like some people could.

Please do not partner with Coca Cola.

That's what I'm saying though. Like he's got integrity and you know, that's, that's what I immediately. Another thing that drew me to, you know, to you're on and what he's doing with his company. It's just like there's that temptation there because you can make a ton of money with those type, that type of data and to be able to market like certain food groups within the app and really focus on supplements for over here, for this, that'll pair and match you best. But you know, that's, that's something that you know, you're going to have to go through, you know, all those things.

Yeah.

I mean, remain pure.

Yeah. Our interest is really people's health and to try and help people as much as we can. So we, we will, you know, stick to our ethics for, for that purpose.

How do you think that the policies will be adjusted? Because right now the John John Hancock Insurance Company has a radical plan where they're giving people money back at the end of the year if they hit step counts, if they hit other biomarker counts. That's pretty cool. I mean that's as proactive as it gets right now. But with your company, with getting continuous glucose monitor information and with getting really radically progressive information, I could see that affecting the bottom line of insurance companies, the bottom line of wellness programs for corporations. I mean, what's your vision for that?

Yeah, that's a great question. I think that in general there is a lot of value in measuring all the things that we are measuring for a lot of people. Not only for individuals who are trying to understand their bodies. One of the challenges is really to find a way to do so. That is a win, win for everybody. I mean you're talking about the insurance companies, but they're also, I mean there is also like the healthcare industry as a whole and also the individuals. It's very important for us to stay, to try and help them as much as we can. So I don't think there is a short and simple answer to this question, unfortunately. But we're still trying to assess where do all the pieces fit in a way that is a win win for everybody.

I think the parts that I'm most curious about as a podcast host, sometimes I lob onto my guest. I'm like, so how do we solve this world problem? And they're like, well, there's no actual clear answer.

We're working on all those things.

So let's wrap it with the future then. What do you guys feel for the future? What do you think sitting here a year from now? What's it going to be like to integrate all these devices into a dashboard and to really live your life, not depending on the tech, but just using the tech so you can enhance your experience.

I definitely see the gym setting evolve quite a bit. And also just more people doing it at their house, doing it in their backyard. Having the freedom to really enjoy life and, and not treat it as much of a workout as it's okay. Now's the time where I am enhancing my muscles. Now's the time where I'm, you know, working on flexibility or I'm doing my steps, or there's just a lot of freedom with that. And, you know, I feel like there's this old dinosaur mentality that it still pervades, you know, the fitness industry. And I'm just, I'm waiting for that moment where all these disruptive technologies are going to infiltrate and people are going to realize that, like, oh, wow, like, I can work out, but I can have fun doing it. And I don't really have to think, you know, as hard about it. Like, I'm. I know that what I'm doing is benefiting my body because all these metrics are reliable. You know, this is something that's tangible to me and it just simplifies because I think your average person, like, that's going into, you know, hire a trainer, or maybe they're not hiring a trainer. That's a great first step is to hire a trainer. But, you know, just going into the gym and looking around and looking at weights and looking at machines and, I mean, it's, it's a real daunting thing. And, you know, there's a lot of research and all that that they should be going through kind of getting into the process. But we like, you know, what our company and, you know, what we're doing on our podcast, and we're just trying to simplify that entire experience for somebody to easily just immerse themselves in it and immediately reap the benefit from it. So I just feel like it's gonna simplify everything. And so it's like, it's literally your decision to not live healthy. It's all there, right?

I love that so much.

Yeah, I love.

That was such a beautiful sentence.

Thank you.

And it reminds me of, like, why Orange Theory Fitness is doing so well. Because they've made it fun. Yeah, it's like, it's just fun coming in. You track your heart rate, you track your workout points, you get to gamify it. It's using tech in that way. It's bringing people back home, man, which is like community, enjoying yourself with other humans and sweating. Novel concept, right? From a nutritional standpoint, what do you think, Yaron? What would this look like?

I think that in the coming year, we're going to see a lot of new wearable devices measuring new things. First of all, in terms of biomarkers, so things like antioxidants, maybe other biomarkers from the blood, triglycerides and others. I think that. So I give a lot of talks on AI and a lot of the work that we do in Neutrino is related to machine learning and AI. Most of the work, actually. So I suspect, I believe that we will see the world of AI and deep learning and so on, really penetrating into this world of digital health and specifically nutrition. And there's going to be a lot of very exciting things coming up. So for the first time, we will see a lot more intelligence in a lot of these services and products that will really make our lives easier in terms of decision making around nutrition and also in general when it comes to health. Yeah. And I'm excited about the what's coming next.

It's so incredible. It's so amazing. And I look at five years ago, I actually made fun of my girlfriend who was wearing a Fitbit.

Oh, yeah.

Five years ago. I was like, that's silly. Why would you need a step tracker to tell you what to do? And then I started to go through my journey and, you know, everything that I was doing from a responsibility standpoint, and I started to see and feel the benefits of what it would be like to have a life that was just guided and helped and supported by tech. And so I've definitely felt that. And on the Fitness Tech show, my other podcast, we talked to all these club owners and these fitness leaders and people that are in the industry really making the decisions, I mean, on the bleeding edge of change. And they're all trying to connect these dots. And I think we've connected some of them today in a really cool way. So thank you, guys. This has been so much fun. Tell people where they can learn more about Axon and the Kickstarter.

Sure. Yeah, you can go to axonfit.com and then there'll be a link on there so it can take you to the campaign. And yeah, so you can check us out on Kickstarter. There's videos kind of showing different usages of it and help to explain the actual product a little bit more there. And then also you can check out our podcast at mind pumpkin and mindpumpmedia.com and we also have, you know, fitness programs that are digital on there as well that, you know, will cater to all kinds of different pursuits.

And also check out the amazing demos. Justin's going to wear a tank top and then demonstrate for the. That's our video coming up next. All day, but. And then tell us about Neutrino, where people can go. It's Neutrino Co.

Correct? Yeah. So you can read and learn more about us on Neutrino Co. Neutrino is N u T R I N o. We also have apps both on iOS and Android called the Footprint by Neutrino that you can download and play with. And we're actually preparing a lot of very exciting new features for everybody that will really remove a lot of the burden around nutrition in general. So.

That sounds so good. That sounds like so much fun.

I know he's keeping secrets from us.

Have to.

Thanks, guys. Hey, thanks for having me in the Mind Pump Studio. This is like my dream studio.

I love this place.

Yeah, it's beautiful.

It's been rad.

Okay. Until next time, love and wellness.