Dr. Melissa Sonners: Why Moms Are Burned Out (And How To Heal From It)

You know, I think about the concept of exhaustion, and many women, especially moms, are freaking exhausted.

We live in a very masculine, dominant world, and we're like, this isn't it. This isn't what I want. We're not here to do it all. It's a system that's designed to fail us. And instead of looking at the system as being the one failing us, we think we are failures. When we're depleted, we need something to take care of ourselves, to get us in a better state, to be a better wife, to be a better mother, to do better at work. And so to me, what's so important is creating these microdoses. We can microdose self care. And that's where the magic happens. You can do it while someone's in front of you. You can do it if you don't have kids. You can do this in an interview, you can do this on stage, you can do this in a conflict with a coworker when you're like, oh, God, here she goes again. It's such a magical tool. And it's literally a functional neurological exercise that targets your corpus callosum. It's a part of your brain that balances your hemispheres.

It's not just pseudoscience either. It's real biology and neurology, and it's also spiritual.

You are literally opening a gateway to nervous system regulation. You're getting in your brain and your body. You are amplifying your creative output. You're amplifying performance. You have a direct channel to your intuition. You have a direct channel to source to God's universe.

What has been one of the biggest revelations or biggest ways that you've been grateful for God in your life? Why do so many moms and women feel so exhausted and they feel like they have to do and do and do and feel guilty about resting? Let's start there.

There's so many nuggets in that question. So I think, you know, first off, we live in a very masculine, dominant world, right? And when I say masculine, I just mean the energy behind it. So we've become human doings in a human being body. And for us women, I think the beautiful thing that we're starting to see now is, you know, a lot of us were inspired and empowered that we can do it all right from the generations that came before us. And we're living in this time where we're empowered women and the feminine movement. And we have to address that because it's gone too far the wrong way, in my opinion. And a Lot of us are doing it all and we're like, this isn't it, this isn't what I want. It's not working. It's not working for our role as a parent. It's not working in our relationships. And so I think there's a lot of us women that are standing up and like hitting that stop button, like, we're not here to do it. All our power as a woman is in our beingness. And so one of the best things that we can do is start to sit back and embrace that and embody that again. And I think when you start to boil down and tell women to stop doing so much, there's some fear that comes up. You know, I think I'll speak for myself. And I think a lot of women I've spoken to in my community, there's a sense of worth in being productive, right? Like, who's going to love me if I'm not getting it all done? Or what am I accomplishing at the end of the day if I'm not checking the things off the to do list? And I like to come from a place of how about we start to focus on how you're doing it, right? Not just am I getting the emails done, am I creating the content, am I running the errands, am I doing the meal planning? But like, what if at the beginning of our day we're like, how do I want to approach this day? How do I want to get through all the tasks so that when my husband's in front of me or my children are in front of me, I'm not in that beta brainwave that go go do mode and I can actually be present with the person in front of me. Even more important, can I actually be present with myself? You know, that translates into simple moments. Like we think we don't have time, but the truth is we have these pockets of time, we just fill them with to do's and so we feel exhausted and burnt out. An example of that would be like anytime you have a moment to yourself, whether it's like waiting in a reception area for an appointment or in line at the grocery store or like in the sauna, right? If you belong to a gym and you're in the sauna, we're all on our phones and we're staying in that to do phase. I love brainwaves. We're in that beta brainwave that's just generator and going and taking simple moments to sit back and just tune back into ourselves, our voice, our nervous system regulation, and start to be again. That's how we can move from the state of doing everything to actually being regulated and moving through our day in a beautiful, A beautiful energy that serves all of our family around us.

So I want to speak to the person who's maybe needing to hear this the most of what you just shared. The ticker tape or the monkey mind is so exacerbated by technology and society. Like, we all have these phones, right? If you're watching on Spotify and YouTube, we, I, all of us, women, men, husbands, wives, everybody, even kids, unfortunately, are on their phones so much. We are a guinea pig experiment. Do you feel this? Like there's never been a time in human history where we've been so connected, quote, quote, to a device, but yet so disconnected from ourselves, from our neural tree, from our nervous system. What you just said is so profound. Like, people could just hear what you said and then they could stop the whole podcast and just do that. But it's not that easy. It's like in order to take the information you're sharing knowledge without application is really just, in my opinion, kind of mental masturbation.

Yeah.

So if people don't want to masturbate, tune in and share this podcast. Because I think, and I wonder how you feel, mom specifically. I see it with Carrie, my soon to be wife, and we have two children together, and she is so overwhelmed with just things to do just to support the children, let alone her own personal pursuits, her own spiritual pursuits, her own creativity, et cetera, et cetera.

Yeah.

Is there a deep breath and a starting place to make sense of all the static so that a mother specifically could be her own signal above the static?

Yeah. Tell me more what you mean by that. Like. Like what is the starting point for a mom?

Yeah. I mean, the static is like calendars, phone, appointments, groceries. Like the to do list could hit the floor, if you know what I'm saying.

Absolutely.

So with all the to dos that which is essentially noise.

Right.

We don't have to do all these things. They don't have to be done in the way that we've been trained to think they have to be done, especially in modern society. Where's the starting place?

Yes. And there's a lot of shit that moms have to carry. Right. There is the reality. Like, you know, I could sit here and say, we don't want to run around doing it all. And then a mom listening is like, well, if I don't do it, who's going to do it?

Yeah.

And I understand you. I am. You I get you. I have three children, right? It is a lot and it's a very unique situation. Being a mom versus being like a busy woman with a career. I've lived and been both. And the reason I have like an extra soft spot for moms is we have these tiny pockets. We don't have control of our lives in a lot of ways, right? So for instance, I'm here in Austin, we're doing a podcast. I'll get home tonight. I hop on an airplane right after this. I wake tomorrow to my beautiful children and I've actually got to get one of them to the airport at 4:30 for a school trip. I say all that to say like there isn't a big window of recovery. There isn't a big window of like, okay, what do I need to like regulate after this travel? Fill that into any aspect of a woman's life, right? Your Carrie, your partner, you've got a four year old and a two year old and maybe one throws a tantrum or one is sick. And you know, when a kid goes down and is sick, a mom or very involved fathers, it's like you are all hands on deck and you're not taking care of yourself. So then these questions of like, how can I take care of myself? I'm depleted, right? We've been sold as women a package of lies as to what self care is. And it's a system that's designed to fail us. And instead of looking at the system as being the one failing us, we think we are failures. And what I mean by that is when we're depleted and then we need something to take care of ourselves, to get us in a better state, to be a better wife, to be a better mother, to, to do better at work, those things are like hour long appointments, right? If you say the word self care and ask someone what that means to you, it's typically not always for every woman, but it's typically going to be something like a massage a day at the spa, right? It's like a check out of your life that like a lot of times isn't accessible. And so to me what's so important is creating these, I call them microdoses, right? Like we can microdose self care. And I don't even like to use the word self care. It's connection, right? So for someone like Carrie, your partner who's taking care of the children, like in those two minutes, how can we access, how can we have the tools? And that's what I love to talk about and share in two minutes to create a deep connection with ourselves, to regulate our nervous system. Because I can't get to the spa tomorrow, right? I would love to, but I need to be connected to myself because my children feel me. I am the center of their universe and they feel what's going on with my nervous system. And so it is like one of my top core values to be able to instantly connect as a busy woman for my children to teach them how because they're co regulating through me. And so this is really the beginning of a conversation I think about, you know, when you ask that question, like, how do we start to help these moms take care of themselves and connect? It's understanding that it's important, it's putting it at very high on your list of the top of your to dos. And it's actually working on who you be, how you be. That's why I wanted the bee mug and to know that you can do it in minutes. Like to have those tools in your toolbox so that in any moment you could be like, I am so in my head right now and frazzled. How can I get back into my head, in my heart and boom, you have it. Or like, I am so depleted I'm exhausted. How can I nourish and nurture myself so that I can show up for my children who need me? Boom, you have it. And that's where the magic happens. And that's how we fit self care into our busy lives as women. And that's how we're not chasing the system that isn't designed for us anymore.

You talked about that system being fundamentally flawed or it's setting up moms and women for failure. How so?

Because I think, at least for me, like how I used to look at it is one, it's another to do item on the list, right? So it's like, okay, I've got this busy day and I'm making my list of like, I have work, I've got emails, I've got to do the food, the meal planning and like, God, somehow I've got to fit in a massage because I need to take care of myself. I know I have to put my oxygen mask on first because if I don't, I can't take care of them. Well, shit, how am I going to fit that in? Like, I can't, I can't go do a massage. My kids are here. Like, I can't get a sitter or I just finished work and now I finally get them. I can't leave. Like I'm Going to lay on that table with guilt. I love a massage, so I'm not banging, like I'm not knocking it. But there's macro connection and macro self care and macro dosing, which would be like these hour appointments. And then we love microdosing. So the power to me is in the microdosing. It's that regular hit of connection that we can actually access. And then what's really cool too is, you know, like a lot of times these, these appointments for self care, like they're an escape from your life and they can kind of get you to a state, but then you drop right back into the same situation where when you are microdosing connection throughout your day, you're constantly like finding homeostasis.

Again, what I heard from you in a way, tell me if I got this right. Yeah, the system is set up for the macro dosing where if you're gonna get self care, it looks like a spa day or a massage or I don't know, mani pedi, which I'm not averse to. Like mani pedis are pretty cool.

Love them. I have one.

Yeah. I mean you're all, I saw your feet when you came in. I'm like, okay, this woman takes care of her feet.

Yeah.

So you, you find the time to do that, but those times don't always exist is what I heard from you, 100%. And so to have that framework of like, well, if you're going to be a mom who's nourished and able to show up her authentic self with her children, with her work, with everything, then what, what are the times when she would macro and what are the times when she would micro? And then what does the micro even look like?

Yeah, great question. So part of the reason I discovered this and kind of created this is because I realized through experience and any mom I would imagine can relate to this. Like, I don't need it when I'm on the table, when I'm on the massage table, like, give me it. When I'm running out the door late, give me the regulation, give me the tool. When I'm running out the door late and my kid is freaking out because he can't tie his shoes. And all of a sudden it's like this crap storm of I'm running late, right? My nervous system is activated. Now I've got to somehow calm and regulate myself to support my child who's a four year old who just is having a struggle instead of showing up in like frantic state then yelling at my kid, right? We've all been there. I've definitely been there. And then you feel horrible after. Right. And so the microdosing is the tool to use in that moment. And it comes through practice. Right? It comes through practice because we're. We're creating a new neural pathway. Like the. The regular. The. The old way is the familiar way. And I'm sure you know enough about neurology, and I love neurology. We can geek out on this, but we're always going to default to what's familiar. Right. And so, like, if we're used to freaking out in those moments, or if we're used to not being able to regulate our nervous system, if we're used to just pushing through frantically until we can get to the weekend for the big. For the macro dose, then. Then we're teaching our body a new way. And it can feel a little bit like work, and it just takes awareness and intention.

Yeah, it's like all change is counterintuitive, whether it's micro or macro. It feels like the opposite thing to do.

It feels unfamiliar.

It feels totally unfamiliar.

It feels unfamiliar. And there's a part of our brain that's activated in those situations, and it feels like a threat. And so it's like a matter of walking through. I do a lot with my community. I walk them through, like, getting comfortable with unfamiliar. Teaching your amygdala, like, this is safe. It's okay. And kind of overriding that system. But so to answer your question, because this is really important, and I want the women especially, and this applies to men too. Like, what are the tools in those moments? Well, you practice them. You macrodose them in the morning and at night. So this is just like sitting with yourself, practicing nervous system regulation. And you do it in the morning, at night, because you're in theta brainwaves, which are like, very programmable also. I'm a busy woman, right? You're a busy man. Like, train your system in a time where you're gonna get double the effect.

For half the time when the threat is not present.

Essentially when the threat is not present and when you're in your theta brainwaves, you're like hijacking that system and you're forming a new pathway. So when you can anchor in nervous system calm in the morning and at night, like, boom, you change the game.

What does that feel like? What does that look like?

So what it feels like is unfamiliar at first, usually. And what it looks like is not grabbing our phones first thing in the morning and last thing at night. And so I tell women, men, like, give me five minutes. Give me five minutes of your morning and five minutes at night. And if that's it, like, that's great, you're doing a good job. And so we create these anchors, like, drop your phone, tap into your own voice, start to listen. Because that's also when we're in theta brainwave in the morning and at night, which, by the way, people meditate for years to achieve theta and alpha. When we're in there, you have a direct channel to your intuition. You have a direct channel to source, to God, to universe. And so in the age of information, where we could listen to the podcasts, the emails, da, da, da, da, everybody's voice, this is a time to listen to your own. This is a time that you start to hear, this isn't working for me because this is what I want and need, right? It's where we start to feel our emotions that we've stopped allowing ourselves to feel, because our emotions are power, and they're also a gateway to what we need, desire, and crave. And so you practice the macro, but not the macro. Massage, macro, nervous system regulation, macro. Teaching your body that it's safe to be in the nothingness, right? Because you take a busy person and you're like, okay, ditch your phone and just sit. It's like, well, this is really uncomfortable.

Yeah.

Now I'm. My list is piling up, and I like, what's my action step? So the action step at the beginning and the end of the day is to listen. And as that starts to become familiar, you can then access the calm and the regulation. In the moments where you're running out the door and your toddler is melting down, right? Your body, it becomes familiar, and so it's easier to find. And you can usually find and access it through the breath, right?

Which we did before. We recorded.

We did before.

Five circular breaths, my favorite.

I mean, the breath is so powerful because you're doing it anyway. And what I love about all these tools is they're free. You can access them at any moment. Like, I do so many of these in the car with my kids. You can do it while someone's in front of you. You can do it if you don't have kids. You can do this in an interview, you can do this on stage, you can do this in a conflict with a co worker when you're like, oh, God, here she goes again. And you need to regulate. Like, you can use them in the moments. And then the last thing I'll say about that and you can. We can go deeper if you want. Is. I also like to give people anchors for these times. Right. Morning and evening especially. And a book is an incredible anchor. I say a book is your gateway back to connection with yourself, especially if it's a good book and there's some neurology behind that. I would love to talk about, if that's okay.

So physically holding a book, not just an audiobook, because I find that I'm so tired at the end of the day, like, I don't want to sit and read a book because I might just pass out.

Well, that would be great for you.

Yeah, that'd probably be really good. But, like, I don't. It's very rare for me to, like, sit and read a book. And I think a lot of people might relate to that.

Yeah. So what would you do instead? I'm curious, like, what would your evening wind down, like, healthy version be?

It would be like wrestling with my children because I know that's so good for especially Nova, like, rough housing. And then like, probably putting on some like, binaural beats or something where like, yeah, the phone is there, but I'm not like, holding the phone in my hand. I could see if I was on vacation, like, and I had three, four days away from everything that I might want to read a book in the sun or something. So, you know, I'm pushing back on that. Respectfully. I'm like, yeah, telling us to read a book. How so?

I think it's really important because so many of your audience is going to hear this and think the same thing. So thank you for bringing that up.

Yes.

So again, it's like a two minute. This doesn't have to be like a half hour reading a novel. Right. This is, you know, biurnal beats are incredible and they're going to have the same effect. So you can do your biurnal beats. And for someone who's maybe like, laying next to their kid or maybe someone who doesn't have access to those tools, like, a book is an incredibly powerful tool. When we read across a page, there's an eye movement that we experience, and it's slow tracking from the left to the right and then fast tracking from the right to the left. Right when you drop down to the next line. And it's literally a functional neurological exercise that targets your corpus callosum. It's a part of your brain that balances your hemispheres. And so what happens when you read a book, even if it was, like, not a great book? Right. Even this Is like reading with your kid at bedtime. You are literally opening a gateway to nervous system regulation. You're getting in your brain and your body. You are amplifying your creative output. You're amplifying peak performance if you use it later in the day. It's such a magical tool that I think is so discounted. Like, we've got to do this really. Time involved or money involved hacks. Right. And they're great, I use them all. But like, let's get back to the simple ones. And a book is so powerful. And especially if you're reading a book that can like create some expansion or give you tools or calm the nervous system. Like it's a double whammy.

Did you ever think as a chiropractor that you'd be teaching people that they get to read a book at the end of the day and that would somehow make them healthier?

You know what's so funny?

Does that ever come online for you?

No. But you know what's so funny? Do you. I wonder if you experience like, as you evolve in your life, do you see moments in your past where you're like, ah, it was coming in and I wasn't ready for it.

Yeah. Oh yeah. Or almost like the, the over complexity that I tend to do is actually the antithesis of the simplicity of how powerful something so simple can be.

Yeah.

In other words, like, we all know that breathing, eating healthy food, drinking clean water, having down to. We all know these things, right?

Yeah.

But knowing and doing are just so opposite for so many of us because. Because the reward hasn't been felt yet. And I think that's the neurological quotient that we can jam on is like, there is so much power in just taking the five minutes. And I think the reason why, I wonder how you feel people discount it and say, oh, well, five minutes, what's that gonna do? And you talked about the corpus callosum and the reading. Can you go into that from a neurological perspective? Because it's not just about taking the 5, 10 minutes with the book. There's something much deeper there.

Yeah, well, I love brainwaves. And so we could talk about this from a brainwave standpoint, if that's okay. And anyone out there who likes cycle syncing, I think a lot of us are familiar with, like, what's cycle syncing? Oh, great. Okay. So there's like a movement that has been created about women living as much in alignment as possible with your cycle. So that means leaning into what's going on during each week. Of your cycle and, like, adjusting your life accordingly as much as possible. So it's getting us back to listening to our bodies through a system. And so what cycle syncing will usually have women doing is, like, leading up to your period Instead of judging yourself for being, like, tired or hungry or down or not feeling social.

Can we throw moody in there?

Respectfully, yes.

Because I don't know what it's like to be a woman. It's gotta be challenging to bleed and then to survive. And it's a lot.

Yeah. Well, there's a beautiful aspect of why the things are happening as they're happening. And right before our cycle, our intuition is peaking. And so if we're going out and trying to live in the traditional model of, like, this masculine world of doing, doing, doing, like, we're exhausted, our body's trying to tell us to stop, and we think we're failing. So, like, ideally, what we do is we lean into that time. Like, wow, this is my intuitive time. This is when I'm going to say no to social stuff. This is when I'm going to nurture. This is when I'm going to maybe really double down on theta time and, like, tap into that inner voice, because it'll come through really during that time. Ovulation is when we're like a peacock.

This is my favorite time. I love the ovulation time.

So do we. And that's when, you know, like, that's when I will try to schedule as much as possible opportunities like this or stages or social events. Right. You can, like, see in a room when a woman walks in and she's ovulating, like, she is running around the party. She's social. And then you can see the one that's premenstrual, and she's just, like, not feeling it. Right?

Yeah. Yeah.

So cycle syncing helps empower us because we understand what's going on. Right. We understand our bodies, and it helps women align with that. And so we can do the same thing in a daily rhythm. And this is for men and women with our brain waves, with our brain flow. And so we're in these beautiful rhythms throughout the day. And when we align with them, we're gonna feel really good in our nervous system. We're gonna get it all done, but we're gonna feel really good as we do it. And this is going to lead to the end of the day. Putting your head on the pillow and being like, that was like, a really, really good day. Like, a really easy day. You know how, like, sometimes you'll have those. And then there's other days where it's just banging your head against a wall and you spill your coffee and you hit the traffic, and, you know, it's like, how do I create one versus the other? This is how you create it intentionally. And so we can link a resource on this, but. And I'm actually forgetting the question.

Oh, it's like a flow app where you're gonna bring up the flow app so that men and women can track and know the cycles, so that we can adjust our behavior for Brainwave. Flow for brainwave, or just for cycles. Because you said that the cycles deserve respect based on where a woman is in her cycle.

Yeah.

So I was thinking, like, you were gonna bring up the app.

Yeah. Well, so cycle syncing is a great system, and there are apps that you can follow. And I think it's really powerful for a partner to know where the woman in his life is in your cycle because you can support her. There's times when it'd be like, let's go crush a workout together. And there's other times where it'd be like, you know, we've been waiting to watch this thing on Netflix. Like, let's do that tonight. Like, let's just cuddle. Let's snuggle.

Yes. This seems like the ultimate code for both man and woman to know where she is. And I don't want to use the phrase happy wife, happy life. I think that's. I think it's completely. Not present for this day, but happy, human, happy environment. So that's why I was bringing up the app. I'm like, do you believe in that? Do you use that with you and your husband?

I use an app, and I communicate very clearly.

So he's aware of where you are, and he can adjust. And 100. This seems like a huge code.

I mean, the code is everything. There's so many codes for men and women as far as in our relationship. Because think about as a man, how good do you feel when you. You, like, nail it for your wife when you, like, support her and she's like, josh, that was just what I needed.

Yeah.

Like, and how good do you feel?

That's what it sounds like.

Yeah. And how good do we feel as women when we're like, I mean, maybe I'll piss some people off with this. But I think getting back to the old school is really important. Like, when we're nurtured and taken care of and we can feel safe because that allows us to be in our feminine power and our Feminine power, to me, isn't standing out there with picket signs. Our feminine power is being in our b. Ness. Right. It's slowing down. I mean, I see Carrie, like, sauntering around your house like that, to me, is feminine power and beauty.

Yeah.

She's with her children. She's present, which is a. To me, it's a flex. I want a better word than that. But I think in today's day and age for me, and I've wanted to be a mom since I can remember, it's my favorite job I've ever had. And it can be very easy for me to get pulled into the do, do, do, because I also love to create. I'm a visionary. I get intuitive hits all the time of, like, stuff that I want to follow and help people with. So it's a balance. But the more we communicate our needs as men and women, the more we can support each other and the more we're able to stand in our power together, and that's the beautiful union.

I remember we were chatting on Facebook messenger, and I think I posted something where it was like, the couplehood comes first, and you were like, yes, this is so important.

Yeah.

And you said when you weren't prioritizing you. When you. When you didn't know how to be, this is a big part of your work, is teaching yourself and women how to just be.

Yeah.

When you weren't doing that, there was meningitis, there was Lyme, There was all this disease that manifested psychosomatically.

Yeah.

So I think this is a perfect time to share that, because you're not just an expert. Just because it came to you in a download. This was your life that directed you towards the vehicle of which you serve. Can you walk us through that? It manifested for you, which gave you the wisdom now. But you had to go through some shit first.

Yeah. And I think, you know, my favorite people to listen to are the people whose mess has become their message. Because we've got a fire under us that we're here to help. It's like we're here to create the tools and systems that we needed that we didn't have. And I think we do a really good job of it because we lived it.

Yes.

Right. And, yeah. So I got really sick. Neurologically, I'm a very healthy person. In general. I'm very happy and social, and I kind of like to look at it as like a bucket. Right. And we all have a bucket, and our stress accumulates in that bucket. Whether it's chemical stress, like what we're putting in our body or what we're not, what we're exposed to physical stress, what we're doing against our body versus what we're doing for our body. And then emotional stress, like this is too much. But I have no choice but to keep going. I'm a burnout mom, but who's going to do it if I don't, right? And so for me, I had stuffed the messages, I had stuffed my body, crying out for rest for so long that my bucket overflowed. And when our buckets overflow, it shows up in different ways for all of us, right? So for some women it might be fight or flight, like living in constant stress or anxiety. For other women it's actually freeze. Like I can't get out of my bed. I can't stop doom scrolling. And for me it was stacked lucky enough with a tick bite and mold toxicity. And so mine literally attacked my brain. I had meningitis and encephalitis and at the time we had a six year old, a four year old and a one year old.

I was perfect timing.

It was actually in hindsight, but it was really brutal. Yeah, I was breastfeeding our baby and just in it, you know, I had my full time career as a chiropractor in the clinic that my husband and I built together that we ran. There's 30 employees I'm managing with a full schedule of patients homeschooling our children at the time. Like you could not have stacked more on my plate, which is obviously part of how I got there. But what's really cool, what's not cool is the way that it showed up for me. I couldn't find my way to work. I struggled to know my kids names. Like it was really scary and I didn't know, like it's hard to talk about sometimes. I didn't know how or if I would come back. I didn't know. And I think losing your brain and your mind has to be one of the scariest things, especially when you're raising children. So like I couldn't handle their voices. It felt like nails on a chalkboard. But luckily I got tested and we figured out what was going on really quickly. And so I got treated. My husband does functional medicine. We have hyperbaric oxygen. Like I was in a very lucky situation. So I got better quickly. But the beautiful gift from it, Josh, that I think is really important is I realized in that moment we do have to put our oxygen mask on first because not only could I not take care of My children. I struggled to take care of my patients. I couldn't manage our staff. I couldn't write an email. I saw the burden on our family. I saw the burden on my husband. And so health is now, hands down, my number one core value, no matter what. And so if women are listening to this and they have that voice inside and they're like, I can't rest. I can't. Let me be your confidence, because I lived the other side, and it's not good. And so if you haven't yet leveraged your health, like, borrow mine, borrow my knowingness of how important this is, and don't let it get that far, because it's not worth it. And you ask anyone who's healthy what their wish is, and they could have a million wishes. And you ask someone who's lost their health, and they'll have one wish. Our health is our number one asset, because without it, we have nothing.

Wow. Thank you for sharing that. Because you're a driven person and you happen to be a mom, and I think many people can relate to this, because I just. I can't get over this question. I've been milling on this for a while for men and women, but this question is directed to women. Do you have a sense that hustle culture is really just trauma disguised as ambition?

Yes.

How so?

I think that busyness and business are similar words like not by accident. And I think that it's very easy to say I can't do fill in the blank because I have work or I have to get stuff done. And I think a lot of people have a fear of the quiet. I think a lot of people are afraid of hearing what would be said when they spend time alone. And I think it's one of the most important hurdles that we can go through. I think it's some of the most important, if not the most important work that we can do. And I understand it's scary. I. You know, part of getting better for me was I used the outside in tools to get better. I used the hyperbaric. I used the sauna, I used the breath work. But I realized I was gonna find myself right back in that same situation if I wasn't working on the inside. And I've had a beautiful childhood. I've had a great life. And I've also had trauma. And I was running from it. I was running from it big time. And I was distracting myself into work. And so, 100%, through your own ambition.

You were running from what? Not just you. Your story is. It's funny. Your story is a macro of the millions and millions of micro, to use that phrase again. The ambition coming from a heart space that's pure is wonderful. Right? There's nothing wrong. Ambition is amazing. It's what builds buildings. It's what does this podcast is what allows you to tour it. Pure ambition from a clean heart, from a clean emotional body is really powerful. It's what can change worlds. Yet if the fuel source or the substrate that fuels the ambition is wired for sympathetic dominance, then eventually the wheels fall off the wagon. Can you, can you. How did you change from ambition from trauma avoidance to ambition from a clean emotional body?

It's a really good question. I'm feeling really called to start with my macro experience in it. And for me personally, I don't know. This is everybody's jam. But you know, I heard someone speak on a documentary and it was called Psychedelics Revealed. And it was this really interesting person. And you talked about how the trauma of the CEO becomes the ceiling of the CEO. Whether that's in your business or whether that's in your personal life, that's so good. And that CEOs become like experts at alchemizing their trauma, but they'll constantly hit the same thing. Either in your business, you're like, never getting over that cap of making the money you want, or you hire the right team and then you lose them, or you hit that same cat, that same, like, roadblock in relationships, right? And I heard him say this and I was like, I want to talk to that guy. Like, I want to understand what he means. And it was so interesting. He came from a Navy SEAL background and he's like, you know, when you look at like, who makes the Green Berets or who makes the special ops teams on, on Navy seals or whatever it is, I'm not very well versed with that stuff. But he was, he said you'll get, you know, like the overweight guy from Oklahoma and you'll get like the ripped guy from California and you'll get like, you'll look at these people and you're like, what is the common denominator? And when you boil it down, it's trauma. And so people that have experienced trauma a lot of times are really good at pushing the limits. They're really good at pushing through the discomfort because we've learned to, right? Same thing with, like, long distance athletes like Ironman. I, I, I'm an iron woman. I loved the long distance endurance. Like, put me in a situation where I've got mental chatter and stuff going on, and I'm like, I want to come up right against it. Cause I love that stuff. But, you know, you start to. You start to create space for, like, actually hearing what's going on. And I think you realize it's not as scary as we're making it. You know, I like to think about, like, emotions or these layers of parts of us that come up. And, like, for so long, for me, I didn't want to hear it, because I'm like, what am I gonna do with it? Like, I like to be happy. I was. I was raised in a home subconsciously, where if I wasn't happy, I didn't feel loved. So I was really scared, right? But these things come up, and they're like children. I think of all my emotions or shadows or darkness when it comes up of, like, a child, like, it just wants space held for it. I don't have to fix it. I don't have to do anything with it. I create space for it. And that's, you know, in a lot of ways, like, what my morning time, my sit spot has turned into. And on the other side of, like, going through that, oh, my God, my light has gotten so much brighter because I'm now integrating the shadow, too. It's our whole self, right? We wonder why we're exhausted as women. Well, if we're hiding this whole. I like the yin and yang symbol. If we're hiding half of it, like, we're coming to the world half full and expecting all the energy.

It's so heavy, too. Like, your bicep must have been burning for so many years, holding up the mask of just being the good girl and the happy person. Because that part of you that made the protector. Yeah, that really. The part of you that was in exile was, like, put up this mask at all costs. Because if you don't wear the mask, you'll die. And you could achieve on the outside and know iron. Iron Woman and chiropractor and all these things. Check, check, check, check all the boxes, right? But eventually, it's like, you have to put the mask down. You need a deep breath. So what did you find when you put the mask down?

Oh, my God. I mean, I. For so long, I was, like, really lonely. Like, surrounded by people, but so lonely. I realized I missed myself. Like, she's pretty freaking cool. So to get back to, like, loving ourselves, it changes everything. And, you know, I know we're in a time where women need community more than ever. Everybody does. And I didn't have one. We Lived in New Jersey for 15 years, and we moved for community because our community found us. Like, these things pop in, you know? And when I left there, I was like, wow, I don't have someone to say goodbye to other than family and work, because I just buried myself in family and work. And that's a lot. That's enough. Or I thought it was, like, there was this piece of me that was like, I need to play more. I need to explore more. And, like, oh, my God. Getting back to that has been. I can't, like, not glow when I talk about it. It's. Yes, it's. And this is the energy I'm bringing into everything I do now. This is who I be.

It's so powerful, the word be. You know, it's interesting. I went through a course called Landmark Education, and It was, like, 15 years ago when I was a personal trainer. And then I found mitt mastery and transformational training. And then that led me to Ayahuasca, and then that led me to breathwork, and then, you know, fill in the blanks, right? Like it. We start at a place because we're already feeling exhausted and our future self is talking to us, saying, do this, do that. But it comes as a whisper. I don't know if you've seen the movie Finding Joe. Have you watched that?

No.

It's so good. There's two movies. When you were talking about the part of you that, like, was shining on the outside, but also feeling alone and surrounded by people, I couldn't help but recommend this to you in the audience. And it's this movie called Inside Out. It's a Pixar movie.

Yes. I love that movie.

It's so good. If y' all want to get into parts, work without having to read Schwartz's book, watch Inside out, because that's exactly what you were describing. And then also Finding Joe. It was this incredible documentary that we're all essentially the Golden Buddha. We just get dirt and soot and vines and stuff that grows over us. And there was this man outside the village, and he was cleaning off this statue that was overgrown, and he flicked off a piece on the toe, and there was this bright gold shining back at him. And that's the metaphor for all of us, is we are actually all the Golden Buddha, but so many of us. And I think part of your work, if I'm getting you correctly, is about removing the vines and the crud so we can just shine. Now, that's easy to intellectualize, but to somatically experience that transformation looks Totally different. What is the somatic experience of that transformation so that we can be the Golden Buddha?

Yeah. I mean, it feels like alignment, right? And this is such a beautiful conversation because I'm a chiropractor, right? And so physically, for so long, I got to work with patients. The chiropractic lens is that we are innately healthy. Like, we love the human body and we see it for the miracle that it is. And so when I had a patient on my table, my job isn't to give you health. My job is to chisel away everything interfering with that so that you can reveal your innate intelligence, your alignment, your connection, right? And so now it's really interesting, kind of going back to your question, like, did I think as a chiropractor I'd be talking about books and all these things like, now? And what's so important for people to understand is, just like you said, this isn't an addition. This isn't more stuff for you to do. This is a letting go. This is a subtraction. And so now, in the same capacity, I'm helping people. Like, I'm just there assisting, but they're doing the magic and they're letting go of these false beliefs and these stories. And what that starts to feel like is alignment. And what alignment feels like is nervous system regulation. It feels like easy on the outside. It looks like flow, right? Like, everything's coming to me and through me. I'm not pushing so hard. I'm not forcing. I'm allowing. And that's feminine, right? That's being in our feminine power. And so you start to make decisions in alignment because it becomes familiar, right? And so in the age of like 30,000 decisions that we. That we consciously make, and there's tons of thousands of ones that we subconsciously make, you start to make decisions based on what's going to put you in alignment, what aligns with your core values, what feels good in your nervous system, and what's your gut and intuition telling you? And when you use that to guide your decision matrix, like, easy peasy.

What is the. What is the decision matrix that you speak about? What is that?

So when people are like, okay, this is great, this is great, I hear all this, like, what do I do? What's the next step? How do I. What happens when I come up against this situation? What would that lady say? Right? You take a moment and you ask yourself, with any decision, or as many as possible, do you want to come out to this social gathering? Right? Someone's asking you, and you're like, oh, my God. I really don't. Like, I'm kind of fried. I want to be home. So anytime you make a decision, I like to give people anchors. So, like, here's what you lean on. Ask yourself, does this align with my nervous system? Like, does this feel good in my body? If not, it's a no. What's my intuition and gut telling me? I really don't feel like going. I feel like being on the couch with my family. Then do it. What are your values? And that's a great exercise to walk through, because for me, it's health. Number one is health. So every single decision I make comes down to that. So is going out with the girls on Friday night when I'm feeling really depleted gonna serve my health? No. Then it's an easy no. And so, especially for women, sometimes we need to leverage our boundaries as we're getting comfortable speaking out for them. And this is how you do that. And it's practice. It's practice, and we're not expected to do it perfectly. But every time you say yes to yourself, you will start to notice synchronicities. You'll start to notice what it looks like and feels like to live in alignment. You're going to think of someone, and they're going to call you. Right? You're going to want a resource, and it's going to show up. I call them angel breadcrumbs. And it's like saying those brave nos or those brave hell yeses, and you're rewarded for doing so. Like, what if it was this easy? What if it was just, like, someone watching down on us and, like, tell me what you want while you're here.

That involves a connection to your creator. Now, God is an interesting word because so many people have wounds around the word God. I don't. I did for a long time. Whether you want to call it God or creator or universe, like, fill in the blank. I just like God. I had Mark Gaffney on the podcast, and he's like, people are so afraid to say the word God. Can we just say God?

We can say God.

Can we just say God?

Yeah.

Because what we're butting up against, when you're explaining this, it's very inspirational, Right? I think about the flow state that you're mentioning and the ability to say no, how freeing that is. But it's a muscle, right? Like, as we practice the tools you're giving us, I think we meet ourselves, and we meet ourselves in a very challenging way. We meet emotional epigenetics. We Meet the behaviors and experiences of our ancestors. We meet, for the Italians out there, the Italian grandmother guilt or the Italian mother guilt. The shame dragon comes and starts breathing fire. We meet societal guilt of I should be doing this and I should not be doing that. And then we reach the guilt of ourself. And this is for men and women. But I wonder if you could answer from a woman's perspective. So we have intergenerational, we have societal, we have personal. Personal. Then we have collective energy that's been programming us for so long. How can we possibly practice that strengthening of the intuition in those moments when it feels like for many women, that they are a victim of the circumstance?

So I think it. It starts with, you know, an awareness. An awareness is space. Awareness comes from a pause. Victor Frankel has a great quote. There's. And I'm. I don't know it exactly, but it's between stimulus and reaction. There's a space and the powers in the space, in the pause. And so what I mean by that is when we're coming up against this new practice, this flexing the new muscle, we're going to hear those voices. A lot of them aren't ours, right? We're going to feel the blueprint of what we were taught through our parents actions through the cellular and epigenetics we've taken on from our ancestors 100%. And so what's really powerful is we start to have a conversation with ourself in those moments as much as we can. Right? In some moments, it's crazy, and we just don't have the access. But, like, then we go back to it. We go back to it in the macro moments, in the morning or at night, like, whew, that was crazy. And I chose the old path, and it felt horrible. But, like, I'm going to sit with it now and, like, ask myself questions about it. Why did I choose the old path? Whose voice was in my ear? Right? Like, where was that coming from? And I think too, you know, we talk a lot about, like, the ego and the true self or the ego and the whole self. Like, those are conversation in so many personal development books. And I'm challenging the way that it's out there. And I write about this in my book that'll be out next year. You know, I think we're taught to, like, get beyond the ego to power over the ego. It's a very masculine energy. It's power from external. So that when you're in those moments and you hear that voice, you're so Stupid. Why are you. Why are you resting? Like, you. All those voices that we create right? From our mothers, fathers, teachers, preachers, we're like trying to squash it when what if it's got something to say and something to teach us? It's a part of us. What if we befriended it and what if we teamed up with it? And what if we delve held first, like, courageously into the feminine way and we empowered from within? Because that's what happens when you embrace that conversation, when you ask it questions like, okay, you're sit. I mean, you can literally talk to yourself. We do it anyway, so you might as well make it effective. All right, I'm putting my feet up to rest, and you're sitting here telling me, like, how dare I? There's so much stuff to get done. So let's talk it through. What do we need to get done? Da, da, da, da, da, da. And, you know, if I put my feet up for two minutes, like, is that so bad? Can you. You've run the show for a while. Like, can you just give me a shot now? Can I have more to say? Can we try it my way? Can we try it from this place of wholeness and, like, literally have that conversation and you start to create this unity of, you know, hearing the voice? And I think it has a lot of, like, really good lessons for us, the ego. But coming from more of a place of like, it's my turn now. It's my turn to run the ship, and I'm gonna do it the new way.

I love this. There was an exercise I did with my coach. It was an IFS MDMA ceremony, and there was an exercise where the younger part of me, he was 11 years old, had been driving the show for a long time, and with my eyes closed, I was able to connect with him and just put my hand on the steering wheel. We're driving a car, and I said, hey, thank you so much for driving, but you can rest. The child can rest. The adult is here now, so you can feel safe. Let me help you in the passenger seat. Let me give you a hug. Let me drive. And just. I understand that it's going to feel a little weird because, you know, you've been leading for so long, but you can rest now. And this is like the practical part of parts work that I think we don't have to go so deep into the psychology. It can be really simple. Like, you're sharing.

Yeah.

Just a conversation with that part of yourself.

Yeah.

One could call it ego. We call it a A lower self. We can call it a younger self. Whatever words matter is fine. But it's really, like, not diminishing the power of the lesson that this younger version, or the ego, brings to us. My favorite question I always ask is, what are you here to teach me?

It's a good one.

Hey, you're coming up right now. I can feel that you're angry, or I can feel that you're in a hurry, or I can feel that you're, like, shaming me. What are you actually here to teach me? But with true curiosity, not just, like, oh, I'll go through the motions and ask you, what are you here to teach me? Truly, from a place of breath and calmness. Hey, I noticed you're feeling this way. What are you here to teach me? What is this all about? Do you find that conversation in yourself a lot?

It's beautiful because there's a lot of insight in there. So your ego speaks from, like, fear of acceptance or not being loved. Right. Like, those kinds of things. That's usually that voice, and it's all based on false belief and lies. And then we've got our amygdala that chimes in. That's like, it's here to keep us physically safe. And so in a lot of these conversations that we'll hear, like, that's the intention. And so allowing it to sit back and, you know, like, talking it out, like, I understand that this ultimately, at the end of the day, feels like a threat to survival, but, like, it's not. I got you. We're safe here together. I just think it's so beautiful. And like you said, it's a part of us. So especially for the women or for men who've been raised in cultures of guilt and shame, like, can we stop hating parts of ourself? Like, all of us is so beautiful. And in opening and embracing that conversation, we get back to our wholeness because we're no longer trying to shut this piece of us out. It's a piece of you.

This is the conversation worth sharing. It's not a knock on him. He's produced very powerful work. But Ryan Holiday wrote this book called the Ego is the Enemy. Yeah.

And.

And I thought to myself, I get that from a marketing perspective, what you're doing, dude, but what a terrible message to share that your ego is the enemy.

I agree.

Because then that just pits you at war with self for your life.

It's that. It's that force. Right. It's what we've all been doing. Like, oh, I don't like this part of myself. Let me just do more. Let me fight against it.

And yes, yes. And it's like, well, can we just rephrase the question? And then can we question our own question of is this way of thinking going to bring me peace? Because that's at the core of nervous system regulation. Right. Is peace. And we know that, like, life is going to bring roller coasters and hurdles. Like, it's impossible to just say, I'm going to live my life from peace 100% of the time. That's not how we were designed. Yeah, I know, but when you were in the throes of it and when you're really faced with, okay, I could die, I may not be around for my children, that was the ultimate wake up call that, I assume. I'm curious if you can give clarity that we just don't have to get to. We don't have to get to that point. Although, gosh, it feels like so for many of us, it has to get to that point where we have to like, wave the white flag. We're so beaten down. Can it be another way? And, and what would that way feel like and look like where we don't have to be at war with ourself all the time?

I mean, I think it's, you know, knowing that it's time, like, knowing that you want different. Like, if anyone is listening to this and they're just kind of sick of the way that things are going.

Yep.

You know, maybe instead of like grabbing that next podcast or book that's like, here's the ticket to freedom, tackle your ego or whatever it is, or the 5am morning or, you know, all these things that we're like, what's going to make it better? Or is it the house? Or is it the, you know, it's all these haves and do's and we got to get back to the be. Right. I'm sure you've read about in Landmark. Oh, yeah, I think they use it.

Be, do, have.

Yeah. Did you talk about that?

Yes. Be, do have. It's reverse thinking, actually. We think that when we have the money or the relationship that we're going to feel so good. But it's the opposite. It's about being at first. It's not just pseudoscience either. It's real biology and neurology and it's also spirituality. They're all wrapped in the same basket.

Yeah, 100%. And so if you're someone who's listening to this and you've been living by the do and the have. Like, once I do this, then I'll feel happy, complete, whole, accepted, loved, worthy. And it's not working, and you're sick of it, and you're like, on the hamster wheel. Then, like, why not try this? It's easier. It's letting go, and it's, what does that look like? Right? So let's make sure that they've got the tools. Look up, be, do, have. I think it's such a beautiful concept. I actually wrote a whole chapter on this because it's very powerful. And this is like, I hate when people call me lucky, but very much from the outside, I could look like I have a very lucky life. Like, I will set up a goal or, like, you know, an opportunity I want to create, and I'll get it. And I don't say that to be braggy. I say that to say, like, this is how the universe works, and it's about being in alignment, and it's about starting first with, like, who is it that you want to be? More specifically, like, how do you want to feel?

Yes.

So what is it? Like, if you're chasing the dream house that'll make you happy, or that perfect relationship or that dream job, or, like, that check mark on how many downloads your video got? Like, sit in that. Like, in your sit spot in the morning or at night in that theta time, sit in it and think about what it would feel like. Like, create it as if it really happened. Because your body doesn't know the difference, right? That's why visualization works so well. Like, your body does not know the difference between real and imagined. So create the feeling. Once you nail that feeling, make that your North Star. Like, you set your compass towards that and you get tunnel vision. I am only going towards what will feel like this. You follow your nervous system, you follow your gut, your intuition, that inner voice. Both of them, the ego and the.

And the true self, bring them along.

And you follow your values and you're gonna get there. And it's easy. So, like, why not try it?

You're speaking my and our language here. It's funny, we were walking up to the podcast studio. I'm like, language is so big.

It's a small. So big.

Language is prayer, actually. And I know that you're a woman of faith, and that faith has probably fueled you in many ways that are so mysterious where a breadcrumb happened, and you're like, how did I even get there? How did this show up? What has been one of the biggest revelations or biggest ways that you've been grateful for God in your life.

Hmm. And I would. You know, my relationship with God is unique. It's mine. Right. So all of our relationship with God is unique. But for a long time, I didn't. I wouldn't align with that word. Right.

Why?

You know, we grew up, and my mom wanted to go to church. I come from a family where, like, my parents didn't have a huge religious identity. And so we went to a congregational church. And it was very beautiful. They were like, we want you to pick your own. We want you to be exposed to it. And my dad worked a lot. I didn't get to see him a lot of the time. And so sometimes on Sundays, we'd get. Go to church together. And I'm like, this is so wrong. Like, I don't ever see my dad. And now we're sitting in a pew, and I'm not allowed to talk to him in the one hour that I get him. And so for me, that was kind of like my first experience of God. And I was like, this feels really disconnected. Right. And it's in a building. And that didn't work for me. I felt like for a long time, you know, religion was something that came between me and my relationship with something greater. And to me, God is everywhere. God is in nature. Like, I feel most connected to God, or source, whatever that is. When I'm playing, when I'm in my body, when I'm in nature, like, I couldn't get married in a church or in a temple. My husband's Jewish. And, like, that feels so. To me, that feels so not home. Right. So my relationship with God comes through being in alignment. Because I think when we're in alignment and we can remember that there is no separation, and when we can get back to that feeling of unconditional and pure love, where we came from and where we'll end up, that's when we're connected to God.

I can see you in the pew being, like, angry, like, what is this all about? I never see my dad. And then I'm supposed to just sit in a pew and not talk to him? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember my mom. I was raised very religious, and I would sit. Sit in church, and they'd be, like, throwing their hands in the air, like, speaking in tongues. And at the time, I was like, these people are crazy. And then I worked through a lot of my anger towards God, and now God is in my life in a way that is so. I mean, you cannot have children. And look into their eyes and deny the presence of God 100%. That's why most atheists, I think it's so interesting because on one hand they're like, well, show me proof that God exists. And if you can't show me proof, then I'll believe that God doesn't exist. But it's a flawed premise.

Like, just look around.

They're actually. But they're actually, if you get my drift, they're saying, well, unless you show me the evidence, I don't believe. Therefore I will believe that there is. Not because I don't have the evidence, but the very thing they're asking for, which is evidence they can't provide. And many times my mentor Paul Check said that, you know, you'll never find an atheist in a foxhole when there's the threat of death or when you hold a child, or when you have these monumental peak experiences. The presence of God is undeniable. You cannot deny the presence of God. It's this energy that palpates and you have to be it. You have to be it. There's no faking it, is what I'm saying. So from that space of being before we move on, like, what is the way that your relationship has grown with your creator, with God, and what has it given you that you're so grateful for?

Yeah, I think that I feel more confident that, like, I'm not alone in this. Like, I'm always. Someone's always got my back. I think it's. It's given me trust, it's given me, you know, faith. Right. To take that big first step. Just do that and the rest will take care of itself. I tend to look at it from a universal perspective, to be honest. Definitely very aware that there is a great source that created everything here that is way beyond what we could ever experience. But, you know, I think it's a really strong anchor, and I think it's a coming home. Right. It's a place that, like you said, it's a feeling you feel wholeness, connection. And I think when we can access that in the moments where things get tough and challenging again, it can be a practice or a flex or a faith. Everything just happens and feels lighter and easier.

So you find that happening more and more and more as you progress.

Yeah, because it becomes your. It becomes your homeostasis. It becomes your default. Right. Take it back to neurology. We're forming these pathways, and the more you do it, the more it just becomes second nature. It starts to happen subconsciously. Right. You start to make The. There's that whole thing of, like, making the subconscious consciousness.

Mm.

And then all of a sudden, it's like you're. You're consciously activated, even in your subconscious.

Well, look the hell out when you start to make the unconscious conscious, because a lot of stuff is gonna come up.

Yes.

And you're gonna need some support and some tools and some community. And I find that so many personal development programs and so many people in my world and our world, they're just speaking all these great things, but they're top down. There's no bottom up. There's no. There's no mystery at the table, is what I mean. There's no acceptance that we are literally all the same. Like, when I look at Melissa and Melissa looks at Josh, like we're just an individuation of our creator. And that can be very alarming to people because they want the proof. They want the proof. And I wonder how you feel about this, because, man, the seeking for proof or the seeking for the external validation or, like, you know, give me the five things that'll transform my life. Give me the checklist of 10 things that'll make me a better moment. These are such intellectual questions. But the real healing that's needed in our world, that it seems like you've walked yourself through quite a bit, is actually in our heart, in our enteric nervous system, and in our physical body, because the body is the unconscious mind, to quote Bruce Lipton. And not just Bruce Lipton, everyone else who's in neurology and somatic experiencing. What do you make of this? That the healing is actually not mental. It's actually somatic. It's actually unconscious, AKA physical.

Well, the body keeps the score, no doubt. Great book.

Full stop.

So, you know, I can put my chiropractic lens on that and affirm that emotions live in our tissues, our issues stay in our tissues.

And you've seen this firsthand with all your patients?

I've seen this firsthand with all my patients. And more importantly, this is my genetic. This is where I'm a cycle breaker. I come from a long line of a lot of. It's interesting. People of the heart. I'm a woman of the heart. And people of the heart who came here and got hurt and thought that hurt equals love and hurt equals connection. And so I come from a long line of a lot of physical hurt. And I hurt my entire childhood growing up. It's what propelled me into chiropractic. I basically, my pediatrician, at a certain point, found a massive curve in my spine. I was 14, and they sent me to an orthopedist, and I saw my spine on an X ray, and it's an S. And they told me all that. This man stood over me at 14, and he told me all the things I would never do. I would never run. I'd probably struggle to get pregnant. I'd have awful pregnancies if I could ever get pregnant. And kind of played out my life story and recommended surgery. And someone luckily told my mom, like, why don't you try this chiropractor, right? Just try it before you go for the surgical consult. And so we did. And I remember literally pulling up to the office, and this is literally, like, this is. To me, this is God. This is my reason I'm here. Like, you get these. I call them angel breadcrumbs. This is a big one, because I could have gone that same path. But I was here to make a ripple in the line of my lineage. And that message showed up and came through my mom for this. I really believe that. But I literally remember going in the parking lot and being like, why are we going to a chiropractor? Like, these people are quacks. This is so weird. It freaking changed my life. It was the first time that I sat with someone that taught me that your body's not designed to fail. You know, I have a great relationship with my dad, and also, there's a lot there that it's like, why I do what I do. Like, I watched my dad. I still watch him in pain all the time, and I wanted to fix him as a chiropractor, and I ended up having to put, like, a quote in the room where he stays in her house. And it's like, you can't try to heal someone who's not ready to be healed. My dad's wounds aren't physical, and he'll tell you up and down all the reasons that he hurts, and he'll point to all the physical reasons for that. It's emotional. It's emotional. And so, you know, I know that's a long question or a long answer to your question, but it's a visceral thing for me. Like, it's a visceral knowing that everything mindset is. It's in our soma. It's in our somatic experience. It's part of it. Like, we can't separate the two.

Thank you for sharing that, because, yeah, it can be such. This argument between psychosomatics and the way that thoughts become things versus genetic predisposition. In other words, somebody's born with a certain thing. But like you said, if the body is innately whole and it doesn't, quote, need fixing or need healing, just the removal of the things that are blocking its own capacity for healing, that can be really challenging for somebody to hear. I mean, not the guests that I've had on the show. I think about Dane Johnson, who healed himself from ulcerative colitis and, you know, he had a death sentence. And we hear these stories time and time and time again about people that just healed themselves by going into the emotional body. And for me, as a guy, especially a football player from, like, La Mesa, California, if you would have told me I'd be talking about emotional healing or somatic experiencing or the fact that our body is the unconscious mind, when I was in high school, I would have been like, you're crazy. But now I understand it as truth. On your microphone, there's a triangle, there's a water triangle, which symbolizes feminine energy. And it's been my deepest learning curve in the world. To think that from my past I was so disconnected from the feminine energy in my body to now consciously working on it and stuff comes up all the time is so fascinating to me because the signals that you talk about, how my body had been talking to me and even my sinuses, I had crazy chronic sinusitis, antibiotic use, and all kinds of things. And it honestly has only been Melissa in the past, like, two years that I've really gotten clear of all of these things. But, you know, it was the common factor. I got deep into my emotions and I started working with people that would actually help me release emotions and release stuck energy if the body keeps the score. And if you see this in your practice so much that locked emotions is what creates the disease or the illness. How do you bring that type of conversation to a patient or to a person that is totally mentally opposite of receiving it?

Yeah, that's a good one. Because it's really empowering information, but given to the wrong person at the wrong time. If they're not ready, you nailed it.

They'll just push it off the table.

Yeah. Because it highlights a knowingness. You know, I think I definitely came from a place of, like, victim mindset for a long time. Like, it's easy for me to just say, this is my genetics, this is my body. Like, ho, hum, whatever. There's nothing I can do about it.

Yeah.

And that can feel really good and familiar if you've been raised in a system like that, or if that's been your story. You listen to people say my headache, my anxiety, my depression, like, or even my cancer. Yes.

Yeah.

Or cancer patient. No patient who's experiencing cancer. Like words are powerful. Yeah, Right. And so if you take that away from someone that might be a foundational thing that feels like connection to them. My dad is that way. That feels like safety and love and connection. And so I think understanding and coming from a place of gentleness and compassion because it's, I don't think anyone ultimately wants to be stuck or not feel good, but people want to feel safe, loved and important. And if that's part of their story that fed into that narrative, like they're, they're not going to want to let that go. And so I think baby steps are really crucial. And like you said, having support systems, you got to have someone to walk you through it right at the beginning because a lot of stuff will come up.

This is part and parcel why you have your community. Right. And I know it's digital, but like in my opinion, I think digital is the starting place or the scaffolding that gets us to in person. If we had unlimited resources, which probably in a different timeline we do, we're just creating that time timeline here, then we would meet with people every week, we would have community gatherings every week and people flying in and that's where the healing happens. But yet we live in a digital world. There was a spark in you that said, okay, I'm going to have this community for moms, for women, because it's so freaking needed. How do you go from digital to in person? And what was the call to do the digital?

Yeah, well, there's macro and micro. Right. So we met at Runga, which is a macro, a big beautiful in person connection.

Shout out to Joseph and Amelia.

I mean, that event has come up so much in the last week. I'm like, they must be working on something.

Yep.

But that's a macro. That's a big, beautiful, connected experience in person. Right. And then we've got to have the micro to keep us in that place and state in the, in between. And you know, for me, I didn't have community for so long and I realized like in New Jersey I didn't, I didn't have a like minded community outside of work in my family, which thank God, they're amazing. But what I realized, Josh, is when I found the community within me, when I got back to knowing myself again and sitting with myself and listening, taking off that mask, I didn't even have to fight to find It I'm like bum rushed with like minded people. I have more community now where I live in Miami than I've ever had in my life. And so my intention with creating this digital version 1 is to feed the micro until people can get out in real life communication and conversations and connections. But more importantly, it's to get women connected back to themselves and who they are. That's my goal. Because when they do that, their community will find them. And all of a sudden they're going to have an in person coffee date and they're going to start talking to the other mom at pickup. And they didn't know how much they had in common because they were both showing up superficially because it feels safe. Right. You start to let down your guard. You start to let your freak fly. Freak. How do you say it?

Freak, fly, fly, fly. Say that 10 times fast.

Yeah. And people want more of that. Like nobody wants perfection. Nobody. And so the intention with my online community is to give women the tools. A lot of it are through books. Like books is our syllabus. I'm only going to suggest, I like to call them literature of possibility. Books like this is going to help you find you again. This is your enneagram. Like figure out what enneagram you are. What's your number, what's your human design? How do you fascinate? Why are people attracted to. Do you.

Do you play with astrology in there at all?

I haven't done astrology, but that would be good. Yes.

Yeah. Deborah Silverman was on the podcast and she's like, well, astrology is the mathematics and it just, it's the prism that shines on everything else. And for a guy coming from lamesa who was a football player, I was like, really? But then after I did her process and interviewed her, I see the truth in it. I keep an open mind. It seems like that's what you're doing is you're creating a space with women that have open minds or they're open to something new.

Essentially they're ready for something different.

They're ready for something new. They're waving the white flag in some way.

Yeah, I liked that lady. I saw part of her podcast at the end. I think you guys did a story. And she's like, I feel like we just went ice skating. Yeah, those are the people. I mean, her energy is playful and fun and those. That's what I want to bring out in these women.

And you know what's interesting is she's almost 70 years old and she has such A light.

She has such a light.

There's a light. So whenever I receive advice from anyone and I don't know if you feel the same way, I always ask myself, are they embodying the purest form of joy and mastery in the thing they're speaking about?

Yeah. And.

And if the answer is no, then it goes back to your intuition quotient. Then I'm just a no to it and that's it. I think we live in an age where we're just, like, bombarded. I love your word bum rush. That's an old school phrase. We're bum rushed with all this information. But information without embodiment or information without actually learning it and being it and wearing it is a waste of time. And gosh, we live in this world where people are so wasting their time. And the best time, I believe. Believe is when we just get together, like you and I are doing right now.

Yeah.

Like, I would never know these things about you unless we podcast it. Our audience would never know these things about you if you didn't have the courage to share them. But if we don't meet and if we think we're connected, scrolling on social, then we're getting this pseudo connection, this pseudo piece, but it's not real, it's not palpable, it doesn't stick to our soul.

Yeah, it's very different. It's very different. And just going back to what you said about, like, the people giving you advice or selling us things or whatever. I'm intuitive. I've been my entire life. And there's. There's gifts to that and there's challenges to that. Right. Like, I walk into a room and I feel energy. I. I can't even hear what's being said. I feel energy. And with my dad, that was like, really hard. And that's why I'm so. It's so important to me to help women regulate their nervous system because, I mean, it's literally science. We have our kids cells in us, and so they feel what's going on in our bodies. We give them their nervous system blueprint through feeling ours. I can say everything's fine, but my kid is going to feel what's actually going on.

Yeah.

They learn through mirror neurons, they learn through CO regulation. Right. And I was very in tune to that as a child, and that was like the curse and the gift. But when I see, like, that woman, when I saw her on your podcast, I don't even care what she's talking about or selling. Like, I'm like, I I want what she has. I want that light. I can feel her. And then I go in reverse. Right? Like, I don't want someone selling me the best self help tool if they're out of alignment. Like, I can't even hear the message, you know? So I love what you said because it goes back to that decision matrix. And women especially, this is our superpower. Like, we have an intuition. We just forgot how to listen to it. And so if all every woman did after this conversation is just have a little bit more faith, a little bit more confidence in taking that one step based on what makes no logical sense, but what feels right in her body, like, that's a win, and that's the practice. And the more you do it, the more you're going to be like, whoa, there's something here. She said I would take that step. And then I'm going to see synchronicities. I'm gonna see things coming through for me, but you gotta not be looking at your phone or you're gonna miss them. Yeah. Like, that's how it works, right?

And then I find once you enter that space of just being open to intuition, to the breadcrumbs, to all the things, I know this can seem a bit esoteric, so just bear with me, y'. All. When we're in that space of actually being open to life, life itself, just being open to life, then you start getting attracted to, like, red light therapy and oxygen therapy and, you know, the hbot, and there's these tools that come in and. And I've experienced this where I'm like, I can't believe I'm doing this right now, but it feels so good to do it. And I would have never done this, you know, 10 years ago because I just. My mind wasn't open to it. In other words, do you feel like the consciousness equation, Consciousness feels like it's expanding so fast. And I know we're in a bubble. I get that maybe in Alabama and central Alabama, this is not the conversation, but, you know, hopefully this podcast sparks that conversation.

Yeah.

Do you find that in your work personally and also with patients and all the women that are drawn to you, that they'll start out being a little closed, and then they'll come in and they'll start asking about red light therapy and about doing the hbot, and it just seems like it multiplies from there. It just takes a little spark. And then once that seed of consciousness is planted, all these other things start coming in, and then the person's totally more supported. But it literally just takes that first point, point of consciousness, curiosity.

Yeah. Because they start to follow what feels good, right? They start to use that as their roadmap, as their decision matrix. It's no longer, like, what I should do or what I'm supposed to do. It's what feels good. And, you know, I like to call them bio harmonizing tools because we're, we're harmonizing with ourselves. I don't like the word biohacking because we're not hacking.

You're not the only one, you're not the only one that doesn't like that term.

It's just like a little bit. It's. It's that force, right? I don't like the force. It's. These tools are really powerful. And, you know, I always want women as they're using them more and more, and men too. The power isn't in the tool. The power of the tool is it's getting you back into nervous system regulation. It's getting you back into alignment in those moments where you can't do it for yourself. Right. Like, ideally, we don't need them. We go in nature, we do breath work. We're with the sun, you know, but it's living in alignment with our environment and with our biology is what these tools create. And so for someone in a busy life where we can't, you know, do breath work and be out there with sunrise and sunset, I get it, right. I use all these tools. But, like, remembering that the reason they're working is because they're getting you back to you. They're clearing out and they're chiseling the rock, right? It's a subtraction. They're lowering cortisol, they're balancing your nervous system. And when all those things happen, you're in alignment. Like, that's you. That feeling that you have, that magic, that light, that is you. And that's what they're doing. And so, yes, women do more of them because they confidently go into the direction of this feels good and this works. It's just like if you have, I'm sure you know, your kids are jumping on if you have a pimp mat or red light. It's like kids and animals don't think about it. They just do what works.

My daughter goes into the sauna space and like, flicks on the lights. I think I had to turn them off if we were walking. It just feels good for them.

It feels good.

They naturally. They haven't been. They haven't been dirtied by the waters of life. Yet they're so pure in the way that they operate, like our kids are. So I know this is like a platitude. My children have been my ultimate teacher and my woman for sure. But my children teach me every day about patience, about all the goods that you've been describing. They teach me the most. I can hear them playing outside right now.

They teach us to play.

They teach us to play. So what part of your inner Melissa, your inner child, is stoked on the healing power of hyperbaric? Because at first audible, maybe people don't even know what it is. I sure didn't until I went to Runga, until I actually sat in the hbot. What is it really doing? And what's the part of you beyond just the healer in you?

Okay.

What's like the inner child joy about what hyperbaric can do for people and what it really represents? There's two worlds there.

Yeah, there's two worlds. So I'll speak to it from like a scientific perspective. First, I love the nervous system. As a chiropractor, I'm a nervous system specialist. Right. And so we'll just keep it super simple. Hyperbaric oxygen therapy is simply oxygen under pressure. Oxygen is a gas, any gas. When we put it under pressure, we absorb it more easily into our body. Oxygen is the most healing nutrient to the nervous system. So anything that ends in itis or is inflammatory or, you know, stress response, neurologically or for me, meningitis, encephalitis. Right. That was a stack of like, inflammation and nervous system. It's an incredible healing modality. It helps get you back to nervous system homeostasis. It's an incredible healer. It's one of those things that can pretty much support anything in the human body because again, it's our main fuel source. So it's hands down, I think, one of the most powerful tools out there. We've been using it for two decades. We kind of found it quite a while ago. And from an inner child perspective, you know, I would actually want to say from a mama perspective, hyperbaric is one of the tools that like. Like, for instance, when I drop back from this trip and I'm like, I have re entry. I call it re entry. When I drop back in in the middle of the week, like, I've got my kids stuff, I've got work stuff. I'm behind, right? All the things been in an airplane, like, hyperbaric is my go to because it's going to get me back like super fast. What does it get you back to regulation alignment.

Yeah.

Feeling good in my body. Not feeling, like, tired or. I just went on a long trip, was under big lights. Right. Like, it's like a battery charger. Like, I do that. I'll do it tomorrow morning. Like, I will be good to go.

And so it's supercharging, because I don't know too much about it. It's supercharging our cells with oxygen through force, through pressure.

Yeah. I mean, Jason is really like. Jason, my husband has a PhD in molecular bio and regenerative medicine. Like, he is the gas guy.

Okay.

So I would rather defer to him for, like, all the science behind it. I'll just tell you what it feels like, because that's what I choose.

You're a good match. You're like, it feels good. He's like, well, let me tell you the physiology of it.

Yeah. Yeah. And, like, it's really interesting when we approach something because, like, when we would walk around these biohacking shows to all the booths, Right. And they're, like, touting the science, and my husband's just so sucked in.

Yeah.

And I feel the energy of the booth. I feel the energy of the people at the booth. I feel the energy just at the booth, and I'm either drawn in or not. And it's so unique because there's conversations where he goes in, and I'm like, I can't even be here. I have no desire to, like, learn about that. Not that it's too sciency. The therapy doesn't feel good in my body.

Oh, yeah.

It doesn't work for me. I'm like, you could tell me all the science, like, not now. Not for me. This isn't it. I use that as my guidance. Right.

Yeah. I love how you both do it together. What's been the most challenging and the most beautiful thing about working with your husband?

Yeah.

Not everybody can do that.

Yeah. So we've been working together for. Let's see, I've known him now. We just realized we've known each other for half of our lives. We've been together. Isn't that crazy? Wow. It's crazy. And we built businesses together before we even got married. So. So, like, we have been working together for a long time. The beauty of that, I love working with him. I love, love working with him. And I know it doesn't work for every couple. It works really well for us. I mean, he's one of my favorite people to be around, and communication is, like, our top core value. We have really good communication, which is so important in building a business together. He's very linear and logical and I'm very like heart based and intuitive. And it's a really unique match because we need each other in business. Right. We're both seven on the Enneagram. I don't know if you know Enneagram.

I think I'm a seven as well.

Okay. Sevens. We like, we crave newness, we crave adventure, we need some uncertainty in our lives. So like that's really good. Right? Because someone's 7 energy in business can drive someone else crazy. The challenge in our relationship, and I wouldn't call it a challenge, but where we need to be aware. I need like heart based people in my life. I need like energetic, expansive conversations. He's my groundedness because I live here a lot. You know, like, he's my safety, but I need to also go out and be with my people. Like my friendships are really important. This trip has been so good for my soul because I'm getting to have these kinds of conversations. You know, it's not so cerebral cerebral. It's beyond. And so just knowing like I know what he needs and he knows what I need. And we found like giving each other that space, growth mindset is another one of our core values. Like we will always grow together and we will always allow and support each other's growth. Like that's really important. So he will always give me space to go be with my friends and be with the people that fill my cup without feeling as a male threatened by that. You know, which I'm curious your thoughts on this, like being an honest man, I'm sure that comes up because some of my friendships are with men. I grew up with a brother. Like I grew up around boys. And so male friendships are very familiar to me. And so there could be and I'm sure his, his subconscious goes there. But then it's like creating the new pathway. Right? Creating the new pathway. This is safe. Like my wife needs this and she comes home a better version of herself.

Yeah, I, I, I would assume that for most men, they don't want their wives to have male friendships. But it seems to me like you've created such a level of trust with your feelingness, which you said is one of your superpowers, that he can feel you. Even though he can't maybe intellectually explain it, he can just feel that level of trust with you. Because of what we were messaging about together on Facebook, it was the clip of the couplehood coming first. And I think for many moms they get caught in a trap of, well, the kids have to come first because they're young, and then that does actually paradoxically push the dad away in many situations. So there's a balance here that. I wonder if you could just give us some clarity on this, because this is really the big question that I've wanted to ask you this whole podcast. You said you're a feeler. It's brought you so many gifts, but it's also been challenging at times because you can feel the room with your husband and having a business and being of service, you feel from the collective of women what they need. I'm sure that's challenging for you to feel at times. Yet also, you have this other world that you hold where it's like, my couplehood and my marriage is first. How do you hold those two worlds? And how do you know when to pour into the marriage and when to pour into the business? It's a. It's a big question, but it's really relevant because with the feminism movement and with the red pill movement, they're both speaking different language. They're both pulling each other away from each other.

Yeah.

The red pill community and the feminist community, how do we let go of all that? And just what wisdom can you give us on the couplehood coming first and filling yourself up in your own individual pursuits?

Yeah, I think, well, the feminist movement and the red pill conversation, call it anything you want, but it's everybody's voices coming in our ears, and that's when things get confusing, and we're in the age of information. So whether it's health tools, do I ice plunge, do I sauna, do I. You know, what do I do? Huberman says yes, and Stacy Sims says no. And like. Like listening to your own, that's where, I mean, so important takeaway. Follow your values, your nervous system, and your intuition, because then their stuff doesn't matter. You can. You can consult, you can take it in as information, but it's not your life story. Right. And you know, the question about coupling with raising kids, I mean, it's hard. I'm not gonna pretend that ours is perfect, and I'm not gonna pretend that it's easy, because it's not. I have three kids who all want me and need me, and it can be exhausting. And then I've got my husband, who I know, like, he needs my soft energy so that he can shut down and feel safe. And there's times when, like, as a woman, we're touched out. You know, I'm like, I can't. I get that. I understand that. And it's very real. So I don't want anyone listening to this to think that, like, they're a failure if they feel that way. That's human nature. Like, we're juggling a lot. But I think, you know, for me, like, I think what's just really, really important is getting clear on your values and getting clear on, like, is your marriage important or not? And what is important to your partner? Because then you can really, like, hone in. It's just like with your kids. It's not quantity, it's quality. So I know a lot about Jay, and a lot of the ways that I've learned about him are through systems. I think they're really helpful. I know his enneagram. I know it's a seven. I know play is, like, super highway into his heart. I know if he's really stressed, he wants to go move his body. So I can see that. And I've got the magic tool. So in five minutes, I can be like, let's go play. Right? I know his love language. It's time. He knows mine. It's physical. So, like, if I'm just in it, he knows to give me a huge hug. And that feels like an hour with him. And I know that in the craziness of life, like, he just needs five minutes of total present time. And so I would say learning about your partner in whatever way works for you, like, those were super powerful for us, helps create that connection in the micro moments. It's microdosing. It's full circle in this conversation.

It really is. The macro and the micro have been present the whole time. Thank you for sharing that, because I think I've struggled with that. I know, like, with two children, I don't have three. I can only imagine a third. That would be a whole different situation. A fun one. I welcome that. I would love to have a third.

Do you guys think. Do you?

Yeah, I would love to have a third child.

I'd love three.

That'd be amazing. I mean, two. I heard Jordan Peterson say once, well, if you had two, you're already totally. So you may as well just have a.

Two to three was so easy. And two to three, actually, like, everyone says, it just. It. It, like, regulates everything. I love three, and then the two.

Can help with the third.

It's amazing.

All right, well, let's end here. So. So you. You're such a feeler, and I know that's, like, been a blessing and a curse, and maybe those are the wrong words. It's been an expander and it's been a compressor at the same time. Right, forget about right and wrong or bad or good. With your capacity to feel and being a mom and a businesswoman and a speaker and an author and a wife, there's a lot there for you to feel. Can you tune into the collective in the world right now? What are you feeling that is most needed for moms and is most needed for women right now above any other time?

Such a good question. There's a Mother Teresa quote that I love and it's if you want to heal the world, go be with your family. And I think that's so powerful. Again, the macro versus the micro. Because everything can be so big and it's like, where do I even start? Whether that's what's going on in the world, you know, or I'm an empath, right? So that becomes really impactful for me. I think all of us women as feelers, it's like whatever's going on in the world, you can, how do I help? How do I serve? It can be really big. And the best way we can serve is bring it down to the micro and be with the person in front of you and be with your children and co regulate yourself. Because you think about, I mean, in the day to day, like if you go out into the world in a stressed chaotic state, you're not helping anyone, you're contributing to the chaos. You think about how you interact with the cashier at Target. When she takes too long, you snap, right? So if we can just make everything a little bit smaller and focus on what's in front of us, like that will create the ripple and that has the ability, dare I say, to change the world. It does.

It's a beautiful answer. It always starts with us and it always starts with awareness. It actually does. I don't use those words too often because always and never are. Usually if you look at ifs or psychology, they're not true. But I will say there are times when always does fit. And what you just shared, I believe will always fit the puzzle piece of humanity. This is why in many lectures Jesus will put children in the center of the room. And I'm not Christian per se, right? I'm just, I take from all religions and metaphysics and spirituality and I leave the rest. But the reason he would put the children in the center and also the women in the center too, is because then you can have the open mindedness and the heart of a child. Then you can Be open to some of these concepts and tools and even your programs and your communities that are presented today. So it's been really great. Thank you for being here. Thanks for being my guest on the podcast.

This all feels really good, by the way, like when I walked into your property and your home with your family and your children and I know it's a juggle. Yeah, it feels really good. So you guys are doing an incredible job and I'm just so thankful to have friends in my life that are doing the work right. Because it is work, it is a challenge. And you can put a kid in the center of a room and it creates a shift. I just want to say one thing about that real quick. Like they say, you know, there would be no more wars if every man got to watch children being born because you see the beauty that is life. And with that, I will say, if the people in the audience and there's children in the middle of the room have dysregulated nervous systems and can't be present, they're not even going to feel the magic that's in front of them. It'll feel like chaos. Right? Kids are here to disrupt, no doubt. Kids are busy and moving. And so our greatest work as humans in the micro is to get ourselves into alignment and make that our North Star that we follow. Because from that everything else just falls into place.

Well, tell people where they can go to attune their North Star. Where do they go to find you? And the book is coming out very soon, I think probably six months from now when this episode goes live. Where do they go Play with you?

Yes. So I have my website, drmelissasoners.com that's drmelissasoners.com I love to play on Instagram. I think it's like a fun way to connect virtually digital, you know, in this world. And that's at Binspired, Mama. And that's a lot where I'm showing, like playing and how I do this. As a busy mom, I do some fun. I don't like to call them challenges, but journeys, like 30 day play journeys, like playing for two minutes and what it's doing neurologically and biologically and checklists and fun stuff like that so they can find me on socials. I'm also on Facebook and I have a podcast, Be inspired, Mama. And lastly, my book with Hay House, the Connection Code will be out in the spring, so maybe we'll revisit.

Wow, the connection Code.

That's the connection Code.

That sounds like an ultimate code. Thank you for being here. Y' all share this podcast with a mother who's struggling, who doesn't have to struggle so much. Yeah, like, it really breaks my heart because I think about my own mom. She struggled with bipolar. And for anybody that has a mother who struggles in any way, the truth is, the reality is that she does not have to struggle so much. That actually is the truth. But in order for her to stop struggling so much, she gets to be open to a new way of thinking, a new way of being. And I'm so grateful that you bring that with your life's work, not just in chiropractic, but in the way you speak. I love how very particular you are with language that I think we bond on that. So, yes, this conversation is worth sharing because it can change someone's life. People write in all the time of just a podcast that hit somebody's soul and made them feel different and made them think different. So you have tremendous power in spending time with us, and I don't take that for granted. So until we see you again on another podcast, I'm wishing you love, wellness, but most important, importantly, peace and power. You cannot have power unless it comes from peace. We'll talk with you soon.