Dr. Shefali Tsabary: How To Be A Better Parent? Stop Controlling Your Children

We're operating from such a place of anxiety that we are just surviving in this parental journey. And one of the ways we survive is we wear these masks. These masks get triggered because of our anxiety and our desire to control. We don't realize how sedimented and rooted, grooved we become in these very monotonous, robotic knee jerk cycles, these egoic patterns which are very dysfunctional, but we don't realize that we're caught in them. Let's break free from these patterns so our children are not burdened by these unconscious, reactive cycles because it's not their burden to bear.

Doctor Shefali, welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me.

Your shirt says awake. Ish.

Yeah, it just means that we are endeavoring. We can always try to be more awake and more conscious and more present.

Yes. I love that word try. I've been really focused on etymology, and I understand the word try as really just an opportunity to either yield success or yield the next learning. And one thing that I was feeling before I got on this podcast and especially the timing of this book, we're talking about, if you're listening on audio, the parenting map. And this is, I believe, your fourth book. Yes, this is the fourth book you've written.

It's my fourth parenting book, but my fifth book. And then I wrote another book which I co authored. So six books. So this is my sixth book.

One of the things I loved when I was preparing for this as I was going through your social media, and you're just not the atypical parental person who's giving advice. You really have a spiritual essence to the way that you describe parenting. And it's written all inside of the book. One of the quotes that really touched my heart. That is a great frame for us to jump off on in this conversation of what in the hell even is a conscious parent? Like, what. What does that even mean, especially in our world of spirituality. It was from Khalil Gibran. And I know you've heard this, so just bear with me. Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of life's longing for itself. They come through you, but not from you. And though they are with you, they do not belong to you. I find that gives me chills when I read it. I was holding my son, Nova, last night, and I was noticing just how sad I would be because one day I would not be able to hold him anymore. And that reminder of death, what Khalil talks about and really what you talk about in your book as well, there's a reminder that one day we are all gone. And I know it's an interesting way to start a podcast, right? It's like, whoa. Josh is getting kind of cryptic on wellness and wisdom today. But. But the reality is that is such a dynamic reminder of how special it is to even have the opportunity to be a parent, to be a shepherd, to guide life in the world. Had. Had you heard about this quote before? And what comes up for you as an expert in parenting and. And so many relational dynamics with parents and children, like, what do you feel and in your body when you hear a quote like that?

Yeah, well, it's really connected to the foundation of what I teach, which is rooted in meditation practice and Buddhist principles of living and dying. So really, all my work is connected to death. May not be a physical death, but definitely the death of the ego. And the ego is our ignorance, our false self that lives for the illusion of permanence, of significance, of approval, of worth. We are so craving, so hungry for these baubles, these trinkets, pearls of validation from the external world, that we've become enslaved to this hunger. And because of this, we have become blind. We live false selves. We are attached to all the wrong things in life. And then we wonder why we are upset, depressed, anxious, and sad. It's because we are living way off our inner alignment, our inner essence. And so all my work is about bringing us back to our essence, to our authenticity. And I do it through the vehicle of the parent only because I care so deeply about our future generations and our children today. So the person who's the most responsible or the most accountable or the most present, at least physically present in their children's lives is the parent. So that's why I talk about the evolution of the parent. Because if the parent understands how screwed up they are because of culture, then they have a slight chance to heal themselves, which means that the children can potentially heal themselves as well. Children come healed. They are healed. They have nothing wrong with them for the most part. They just get thrown off track because of our deep delusional conditioning.

Where does the hunger come from? You said the hunger where we're hungry. Where does that hunger come from? Is it similar to what Gabor Marte talks about with the hungry ghost? The bottomless pit where nothing can ever be satisfied if you're longing for something outside of yourself? Or is it different?

No, it's connected to that. But the hunger comes from a real delusional idea of. Of who it is we are in this cultural matrix that we're ensconced in. We believe that who we are is based on other people's opinion of you, your image in the world, your bank account, how you look, what you possess. This is the prevalent idea of how we should define ourselves. This idea is delusional. So as long as we have this idea, which 99.9999% of the world has, we will crave and be hungry to get this validation approval. More money in the bank account, more possessions, because we think that's who we are. So we're chasing these things. However, it's delusional because these things will never ever reach an end point of satiety or fruition. These things are designed to keep recreating and reproducing hunger and more craving. So then you go again on the roller coaster, then again you're hungry. So that's why this matrix we live in is, is caught up and really delusionally boggled by this endless craving and hunger and not understanding why it's not bringing us the joy we think it should bring. It's because these things on the outside are not designed to bring joy. So the thing. So we're asking for inner joy, but. But doing it in the wrong way. And this fundamental clash is the mental health crisis of eons past and eons to come. So how do we break out is to realize, oh, I want inner joy, but I'm doing it in the most screwed up way. So what do I need to give up? Should I give up my quest for inner joy? Because that would make sense because we're not having it. So should I give it up or should I give up the pathways I've been endeavoring to get that inner joy? Because certainly they're not bringing me inner joy. But it sounds so simple and logical and we should just go, yeah, one of them has to go. But we keep delusionally believing and re believing and re, you know, stating that. No, it is only this way. I need inner joy and I'm going to go get it by getting things, people, places and relationships. It's never going to work. And that's why we're so unhappy today.

I can attest to what you're saying. I've hung out here with billionaires in Austin and the halls and their homes are just as lonely as people that make a hundred thousand dollars or less a year if they're not connected to why they're actually doing it in the first place. In other words, buying the things like you said, is not going to fill us up from the outside, it has to come from inside. When did this concept come online for you? Like, were you a first one, two, three year mom? Did you get hit with a brick in the head of consciousness and you said, wow, I'm really waking up to this illusion that these things in my life, they're not actually going to make me a better mother, a better partner, a better businesswoman. When did that, that awareness start to come online for you?

Well, you know, I grew up in India and one of the blessings of growing up in a culture like that is that you are, if you're, if you' very attuned, plugged into that kind of thinking. Now does that mean the whole country is plugged into that kind of thinking? No, but there is an undertone. If you're sensitive, you can pick that up. But when I was 21, I began seriously meditating and was introduced to vipassana meditation, which is a very brutal form of meditation. And in that form of meditation you learn the principles of detachment or non attachment, of impermanence, of present moment, awareness of the ego and how the ego tricks you and how the world has been seduced by the ego. And I began to break free from the age of 21 and have kept, you know, breaking free and evolving since then and putting it into my practice as a parent. Because parenthood is a phenomenal laboratory for the ego to go on blast. You know, if there's any place where the ego is on steroids, it's the parenting process. And that's why I go for the jugular of the parent. Because I'm like, there is no one more ego driven than the parent.

That's why, you know, step one in your process of step three. Step one is release yourself from unproductive. I like that word, unproductive parenting patterns. You could almost say self sabotaging parenting patterns. When did you start to realize that maybe the way you were parenting was not the most optimal way? I'm sure that's the fruition of these books and your work. Like, was there a moment or was an amalgamation of many moments of you mothering and realizing, wow, there's another way I'm not getting the results that I want.

Yeah, it just, it wasn't even about the results. I had been a meditator for a decade before I have had a child. However, because of the prevalent conditioning around parenthood, I fell into the model that is prevalent, which is the fear, shame, control model of parenting. So I began parenting my child based on fear, shame and control. And I hated it because the part in me that had awakened to my wisdom, to my meditation, to my practice, saw myself go crazy on my 3 year old. And although, according to the books, I was being a good parent, I was scolding her, I was punishing her where appropriate, I was giving her consequences, but I hated it. And that's when I realized that, you know, there's something wrong in the way I'm parenting because it doesn't align with my wisdom traditions.

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And I got to the core of it and really looked at myself in the mirror and I realized, holy Maloney. This parenting model is full of ego. And that's why it's clashing with my wisdom self, because my wisdom self had worked out of ego quite considerably. But here in the parenting process, Boom. My ego was back again and I was being reinforced by culture. To have ego. You should yell at each other, you should be in control, you should tell them what to do and they should follow you and be obedient. I didn't like it, so I rebelled against it and deconstructed it and realized how blindly tyrannical and unabashedly dogmatic the current parental model is. Scarily so where we are trying to raise perfect super creatures so that we feel good about ourselves and no parent likes to hear it, but it's the truth.

Yeah, I was going through the book and you should see the book. There's like 25 highlighter sections. I know we're not going to have time to go into all those. One thing that came up for me was, you know, in India doing yer Vipassana. 21. I did the Vipassana in 2016 from the Goinka tradition which was phenomenal.

That's what I did.

That's what you did? Yeah. When I was done I said never again, I'll do like a weekend. But it was so tremendous, it was so challenging for me. That was just on a physical perspective. The sits, the 4am Wake up and the sits and all the challenges. I mean I had some beautiful things come through around my own programming, around my own, I guess you could say imprinting. But for you, did anything come up for you around cultural pressure, specifically from India? Cultural pressure and parenting style? There are very long standing traditions in India that this is the way parenting is done and you don't go against it.

Yeah, this is the way life is done and you don't go against it. Yeah, no. I've been a rebel and a deep disbeliever in tradition for the sake of tradition forever. You know, I don't mind if we intentionally choose tradition in our present day, but if blind robotic, zombified regurgitation of tradition doesn't fascinate me at all, it really saddens me really to see people just so grooved and stuck that they cannot question, you know, I was just in India and Bhutan till yesterday. I just got back yesterday and the grooving is so deep, while it's so beautiful on one level, it can be very dangerous on another level because anything that is unquestioned, anything that is unexamined falls prey to deep indoctrination and robotic cult like following which you never want to live your life by. You want to be awakened, to deconstruct, to ask, to seek answers, to be fully present to what is feeding your mind and infecting your belief systems. You don't want to just blindly regurgitate something because your mother said that's the way it needs to be done. And that's the problem. That's why parenting today is under a deep crisis. Because we've been doing it the way we were told to do it, or we modeled. We were modeled to do it. But we need to deeply re examine moment by moment, who is our child, who am I, and attune to the present moment without the encumbrance of rigid belief systems.

That's beautiful. I love how it's so palpable for you because you literally just got home. Does it bring up sadness for you or does it bring up anger? Or both?

No, I, I, I'm actually quite a realist and a pragmatist to just say this is the way it is. I see conditioning everywhere and hello, here it is again. However, I am aware that I'm up against, as a wisdom teacher, up against a mountain, you know, Gargan, to enforce a conditioned patterns. My entire mission is to break people free from their conditioned patterns and to see the futility and the toxicity of conditioned patterns. And how when we break free and come into our own awareness of ourselves, our own authenticity, what a liberating freedom that is. And it actually brings up and brings us back to a deeper connection to ourselves and others. You know, breaking free from tradition sounds like, oh, you're just breaking down family values and you're breaking away from a community. On the contrary, when you come back home to your authentic self, you're actually deeply compassionate, more connected and more accepting of each other and humanity and our brethren than ever before.

It's really beautiful. One of the things I loved about the book, specifically in number one, step number one, releasing the unproductive patterns. The sabotage is like when when parents try to force their kids to only be happy, to only show emotion that's going to be conducive to the family being happy. So in the book it says, let them be sad when they're sad, let them be angry when they're angry. Don't try to place a positive spin in tough situations in an effort to protect your child from any emotion other than happiness. I feel like this is a societal program. In America specifically, there could be absolute chaos going on and people running around with a shirt that says Good vibes only. I'm like, that's just not real. It doesn't exist. I think that's actually the biggest form of spiritual bypassing I've ever Seen. Talk to us please a little bit about this. Release yourself from unproductive patterns. When parents place literally a sign on their child that says, if you show me any emotion other than happiness, it's really about the parents inability to deal with their children's emotions because they're unable to deal with their own.

Yeah, it's really the parents inability to individuate and break free themselves because they are so enmeshed with a parental indoctrination from their childhood that they need to present as perfect or happy or cheerful. That that is really why they can't allow their children to be autonomous, individuated, separate human beings. And that's why we control our children. We want them to be happy because we were told that's what a good person does, that's what a grateful person does, that's what a successful person does. And because our emotions were never honored or validated or given space, given voice, that's why we cannot allow it in our children. It threatens us. And we so see them as fused with us because we're so codependent. We see them as a part of us that we, when they are unhappy, that brings us to confront our own unhappiness. And we don't want to confront our unhappiness. We want to be distracted in alcohol and substances and food and social media and making money and looking pretty. So we don't want to touch our deepest core, raw authenticity. So when our children go into that deep gutter pain that our children are so good at, because children are so naked in their pain, we're like, holy moly. Like, I can't go there with you. Please can we be happy? So I feel good about myself.

I love what you said about the parenting being the ego on steroids because I feel like intimate relationship is the same. And then when I became a parent, I thought, wow, that was actually nothing compared to what it's like being sick, managing a business, taking care of two sick children, and my partner is sick. That's a load. And I think there is the biggest flare for the ego is if I'm hungry, if I'm angry, lonely or tired, in other words, if my physiology is not nourished, if I'm going through a challenging time in my life, that's when the ego is going to flare the strongest. And maybe I'm curious what you think maybe that's the greatest point for us to discover. Where are the holes in our own awareness? Where are the things that trigger us that are happening because they're Happening at such an intensity. But how are we showing up to our children? And how can we be more patient if we can actually, in step number two, what you call managing the ego, right, These, I love these archetypes that you talk about. The fighter, the fixer, the freezer, the fainter. Like go into these just a little bit because I think these are the ones that come up when we're malnourished, when we're under slept. And y' all parents can relate to this. I've had many of you write in, yes, sleep deprivation is real when you're a parent. Maybe that's when these archetypes come on so strongly. So share with us about these archetypes. I thought it was beautiful the way you wrote them.

So because we're operating from such a place of anxiety that we are just surviving in this parental journey. And one of the ways we survive is we wear these masks. And it's, it's con conditioned over like a decade of a lifetime. So I talk about the five masks of our ego that we wear and it gets triggered. These masks get triggered because of our anxiety and our desire to control. So the five masks I talk about are the fighter, which is ruled by anger, the fixer, which I am ruled by anxiety, the feiner Feigner, which is ruled by attention seeking, and the freezer, that is ruled by avoidance, an avoidance of intimacy, avoidance of connection, and a fleer who is ruled by abandonment. So when you begin to pay attention to your patterns, you begin to see them everywhere. And then I show in this book the parenting map, how you can break free of these patterns. Because we don't realize how sedimented and rooted, grooved we become in these very monotonous robotic knee jerk cycles. These egoic patterns which are very dysfunctional, but we don't realize that we're caught in them. So in my book the parenting Map, I very clearly break down how these patterns have been suffocating and choking us and how we can break free. So I invite parents in this book to really look at themselves, examine their patterns, and then see their partner's patterns or see their parents patterns. And it's really eye opening to go, oh my God, that's my dad. Or I've lived like this all my life and let's break free from these patterns so our children are not burdened by these unconscious reactive cycles because it's not their burden to bear.

What continues to fascinate you about this work? I'm sure it's been 15, 20 years deep in this Work. Is there one thing that fascinates you in the beginning that still fascinates you the same? Or is there something new that's come online with maybe the consciousness expansion in our world and in this field of parenting and consciousness expanding itself, what continues to fascinate you? What has ultimately fascinated you about this entire field of shepherding life of parenting?

Well, you will not like my answer because I'm not as cheerful and optimistic as you, but I.

Well, try me. Try me.

What fascinates me is how bombastic, how delusional, how greedy, how corrupt our ego is. That is just absolutely fascinating how decrepit the human ego can be. So I told you, it's not a cheerfulness.

I love it. I love the answer.

Yeah, I'm frankly just absolutely disgusted by it. And however it is what it is. So I also don't get stuck in a morbid, passive resignation. I do something about it. And my way of doing something about it is calling people out on it and pointing it out. And with love, with compassion, because I have it in me too. I am morally decrepit myself at times. My ego is huge at times. So I have compassion for it and I lovingly blast it in places, wherever I can. That's cool.

You lovingly blast it. That's cool. Because in step two, you talk about extinguishing our triggers, which is beautiful. There's multiple sections on that. One of the things that I've been noticing, and I think this will be really helpful for all parents, specifically dads, if we grew up where I grew up in an environment where we did not have the permission slip to explore emotionality or emotional intelligence, it was kind of like this dialogue. My way or the highway, do what I say, not what I do. When a man comes from that type of environment and he then becomes a father, specifically I have a baby girl, which I've heard God gives girls to men that need to understand women, which I think is totally true. What is your advice for the 1, 2, 3, maybe, maybe just beginning advice for fathers that came from an environment where emotional expression, emotional intelligence, understanding themselves was not allowed. Is there a beginning place for dad specifically on that?

Well, I think there's several first steps. The first step is to be very, you know, honest and vulnerable about the ways that your emotional self was smashed and buried. And then to have deep self compassion and then to be brave, to talk and communicate your repression, your suppression, your split off parts, your sexuality that has been so shamed and closeted as well. And in all these ways, the Male. I'm talking standard, typical, okay?

Not.

The male in this culture has been so blasphemized and so derogated as well. And we women talk a lot about our pain, but let me tell you, you men are holding a whole lot more pain because you're as confused in your capacity to be male as we have been confused in our capacity to be female. And we all have been given very wrong and mixed messages, and the male has suffered, too. And in my books, I wrote a book called A Radical Awakening about the awakening of the feminine. But in that, I do talk about honoring the masculine and the male. And men as a whole, and I'm talking very stereotypically, need to be also reminded of their humanity. And men are not evil. Men are not. You know, we, we women did not raise toxic men. Men have been conditioned to become toxic because of the prevalent cultural narrative. And we need to understand how men have been twisted and suffocated by this cultural paradigm, as well as understand ourselves as women. But it is in understanding both that we will awaken and be emboldened to the highest empowerment. Just talking about men being crappy is not going to help the female cause at all.

But it does create, to quote Kelly Brogan, a victimhood vibration where it's easy to get resources and to get sympathy. And honestly, this is maybe what you talked about with the ego being so cunning. It's very easy when you're in a victim vibration to get results from others, AKA attention or sympathy or just really just eyes or ears on you. I think that's why this narrative of the MeToo movement, we really don't see it anymore. The whole Harvey Weinstein is done. Uh, we, what we see now is, I think, toxic femininity and toxic masculinity, maybe just toxic humanity coming through where we've really forgotten about the core of who we are. There are certain ways that nature leaves clues. And I love this, because if you look at a tree in nature, Dr. Shefali, the tree grows and then it dies. There's never year over year, constant growth, like there is an unconscious capitalism. I'm a conscious capitalist myself. I think capitalism has good points and bad. I think it's the best system we have. But if you look at the people that are in victimhood vibration, specifically this narrative about men being so shitty and men are the devil and men are evil and all men are dogs, where does that actually come from? And what is encapsulated in that kind of complaint? What is the healing that's being wanted that's encapsulated in the complaint itself.

I think it's coming out of a very wounded place of the feminine and very fear based place, which I understand, but it is not helpful and it actually perpetuates our own misery. You know, I was a woman. I am a woman who was raised in India. I was molested up and down the wazoo by, you know, people on a bus, people on the street, relatives. But I still did not develop an antagonism for men because I understood that the men are acting out from a broken place themselves. I'm not condoning their behavior, but I'm certainly not going to become a rageful, angry feminist ranting, you know, human either. There is a balance and I think sometimes, sometimes there can be a wounded feminism that, that obstructs the true mission of a feminist, you know, and I think feminism in its core is, is beautiful. However, there's a wounded side to it too. And I think you're talking about that wounded side, which comes out as anger antagonism, but it's really hurt and woundedness. So if we can understand that we're all just wounded, we would. That's the place to start. That's the first place, like, look, no one is better. We're all fucked up. It's fucked up. There's no point pitting male against female. We're not against each other. We have to work as one. The male can do things that a female can never do and the female can do things that the male cannot do, which is why it works. It's beautiful. It's a system that nature did not just foolishly evolve into, but let's work together, not against each other.

It's really beautiful. I want to create a space here of just complete and total expression and safety with no fear present whatsoever about the topic. And that is gender dysphoria. I don't think it's a topic we should fear. I think it's a topic that deserves communication and really it's asking for peace in itself. I learned this from Paul Levy on the podcast. He said every time there is some type of wetiko or dark matter presented, there's actually a longing for healing in the call for it itself. What do you make of this whole gender dysphoria narrative? The DEI, Larry Fink and BlackRock. There's so many, it feels almost like demonic energies in the world. Dark matter that is trying to confuse. Boys to be girls, girls to be boys, mothers to be fathers. Fathers can now lactate. Look, it's no matter who you are. Everybody feels in their heart and soul that something just isn't right here. I'm not here to tell anyone how they should think. I'm just offering a different perspective, hopefully through you. How do we make sense of this whole thing?

Well, I think there is a small portion of us humans that are experiencing a genuine biological maladaptation or disconnect. For those individuals, there is a conflict between the psychological and the biological and they deserve great compassion. Besides those people, I think there's a whole other bunch of people who are genuinely just confused and they are so unhappy in their current state that they, instead of learning to just sit in that unhappiness, are perhaps grasping for straws and glomming onto this idea that they could be better in another body. And we know that that can't really be fully true because we have not been in that body. So we don't know. You can't say I'll be better there if you've never been there. But what you can say is, I'm really not happy here. And therefore, we need to go slowly and carefully, especially when it comes from children with great compassion, with great respect for their inner turmoil, understand as parents or caregivers that what we're seeing is unhappiness in the current state of being. And not to, you know, just invalidate them, to honor them, but also to take it very slow because children are not yet developmentally able to make life changing, surgical body transforming decisions way into their 20s. Right? So I tell parents, understand your children, don't invalidate them, honor them, but also at the same time, understand it needs a lot of thinking through and a lot of time. We just don't get gender restructuring surgery until the person is a full functioning adult. We just cannot, you know, and when they're an adult, they can make their own decision with their body and we will have to honor that. But as, but children, we have to protect them until they're developmentally more ready to make such, you know, potentially, you know, life changing decisions about their body. And I'm like this, Even if the 16 year old comes to the mother and says, I want enhanced breast surgery, I will say to that child, no, you know, you need to wait till you are an adult. So it's not that I'm only about the gender part, I'm about just surgery in general, which has to do with coming from a desire to seek a solution for something that is deeply unrestful within. You know, whenever a child comes and says, you know, I want a Lamborghini because I'm unhappy. Oh, you're not going to get it. I want breast surgery because I'm unhappy. No, you're not going to get it. I want a nose job because I'm unhappy. No, you're not get it. I want to live in Iceland. No, you're not going to get it. I want to be a boy if I'm a girl. No, you're not going to get it right now. Right now. Because these are two big decisions for a child to be making right now. But it also doesn't mean that we are angry with our children. We're upset with them, we're mean to them, we're shaming of them. We have to understand there's a psychological component here and we need to wrestle with it and go through it. But also I've seen that these things get trendy. You know, all things, even breasts for 16 year old girls, they become a trend, you know, now their butt implants are the trend. Fake lashes are the trend. And so in the same way, gender dysphoric solutions, solutions for gender dysphoria could also be a little bit trendy. All I'm saying, and I'm going to be unpopular after this now thanks to you. All I'm saying, I hope people can hear, is that we have to take it really slow and we cannot just jump in to do anything that's life altering for the body of our children because their minds are not yet developed. And I've also said be compassionate, be understanding, be honoring, understand that there's a psychological component and for some people it's a genuine issue, but we don't know yet for who it is, what, until we wait and allow the child to develop.

I feel like you could be a parent to the nation. I feel like if everybody just listened to what you just said, then every single parent could parent better. Because that slow and even the cadence in which you spoke, it's a very charged issue. And it's a charged issue because children are suffering. It actually leads to the third main block of the book. Learn to accept your child and connection will flow. Parents are seeking connection. They're seeking it. No. What parent ever wants to see their daughter or son suffering? None of us. When my son hits his head, I'm the first one to run to him and hold him when he cry, like moves me emotionally. So I have compassion, I have understanding for the parents that are going through this. Oh my God, my child's experiencing, you know, this gender dysphoric conditions. But at the at the end of the day, it is our responsibility as loving parents to shepherd to make sure that we're protecting our children essentially from society and from themselves. If we don't let children pick their meals or go buy alcohol or join the armed forces, why in any logical form would we ever allow a child to mutilate their bodies? I think that wisdom has been lost. And it's actually, it brings up sadness for me that the wisdom you're speaking about even has to be spoken.

Well, it's because, you know, we're also entering a dangerous era with AI and social media, which is perpetuating this insane idea that we need to be comfortable right away, right now, fast, and so connected to seeing our children in pain. We don't want to see them in pain. Yet it's okay for our children to be upset and unhappy and not like their nose or not like their penis or not like their breasts. It's okay. It's okay. We can deal with it. It's okay. There are 10,000 things I don't like about myself. Now, I'm not saying I'm not minimizing the anguish, but I think if we as parents can help our children tolerate the anguish better until they're older, then the form part of it, whether I should do a surgery, whether I should move to Iceland, whatever the decisions in a child's life are can come later. First we have to deal with the formless elements of what is going on in our lives. And the formless elements in all aspects of our children's pain is their anguish around the pain. And that creates great discomfort for us as parents because we can't sit in that. It's too painful. Well, that's one of the biggest lessons of parenthood, is learn to allow your children to experience pain. It's okay. Right now we've become even more crazy. Now we want a computer to write essays for us and create content for us. And we want answers right away because we are going down a dangerous trajectory of complacency, laziness, indulgence, entitlement, instant gratification. And all these things are anti the way we are supposed to be in nature. In nature, you have to go on the hunt. Look for the bunny. Sweat for 24 hours before you get a little bunny. And then you eat that bunny with the whole damn community, right? And then you go to sleep and call it a day. And maybe mosquitoes will eat you alive. That was our life, right? But look at it. We've gone so far from that basic elemental nature. And I'm not saying I want to be bitten by mosquitoes either, but I'm also saying that we cannot go to this other extreme. And this AI is now going to is another extreme which is so destructive and going to take us away from our basic brain. We're going to be so smart that we're going to outwit ourselves into devolution.

You know, it's interesting when I even feel into the word evolution, there's the word love inside of it, and it's easy to forget that all of these letters and sounds, they actually create the spells that create our lives. This is why you write books. You're writing spells for people. You're getting people enrolled in a story that is most empowering for them as parents. And one of the best things as we wind out the podcast for me to say is this. It's a quote from your book. When you're a parent, it's crucial you realize you aren't raising a mini me, but a spirit throbbing with its own signature. For this reason, it's important to separate who you are from who each of your children is. That's so huge. As we ramp down to the end of the podcast, share with us how maybe that came up in your own life or you were trying to raise a mini me and how parents can look out for that to avoid that. Really, it's the parent trap. I think that was an old school show back in the day. It's funny, you have the parent map. I'm like, okay, let's get out of the trap. Let's get into the map. When did that. When did that awareness happen for you where potentially you were raising a mini me?

Yeah, well, I saw myself wanting to demonically control my child and, you know, make her a version of me. And I saw this early on in my parenting, and I was, frankly aghast and appalled at myself, but was compassionate to realize that was my ego because I was told I could do that. I thought parents couldn't do that. But it didn't feel good to me to tell her to go play badminton or basketball or play the harp, because I wanted her to be that kind of child. So as I began to shed my own ideas of who she should be, that allowed me the space to deeply connect with who she was.

Who was she?

A very confoundingly perplexing, complex human being that has no label. That's who we all are. You know, there's.

There's so much beauty in that. I think for all of us, too. It's so easy to repeat unconsciously. And this is why I love the book. Y' all have to go and get the book. They can get it on the website. It's linked right below the video you're watching here. And if you're listening on Spotify or Apple, it's right there in your show notes. Just click your phone and scroll. Or books. All five books are linked right there. One of the things I loved as we say goodbye, I love your guidance on is this, this question of wellness, of well being. And it's the question I ask almost every guest. To have wellness, one must really embody wisdom. It's been my journey since I was 20 something, being a personal trainer and now 43, 20 years later. Actually it brings up emotion to me just to share that it's been like this 20 year journey of like starting at one place, never even fathoming that I could end up here with you now. I'm so grateful for it all, but it's because I've just constantly gone back to the wheel of how can I allow this to be of service to me? How can I, what wisdom, what lessons can I get from this? If you look back at the span of your life, what's one of the biggest lessons that actually brought you true wisdom that you can share?

Well, it's the lesson I kind of live by, which is, you know, don't follow the trends. You know, stay true and aligned to your own inner authentic voice and don't get enamored by the seductions of culture. You know, really stay true, deeply connected within.

What do you mean the seductions of culture?

All the bullshit of culture, the baubles, the trinkets, the titles, the labels, the medals, the trophies, the bank accounts, the accolades, the how many followers we have and how many likes we get and how many stars we get. And you know, it's an illusion. It doesn't, it's not important, it's not relevant, it's not even making a difference. You think it's making a difference to your sense of joy. It's actually detracting from your sense of joy. So if you get on that bandwagon, you'll never get off.

So you don't care that your IG has a million followers?

Did my ego loves it, but I'm aware it's my ego because at the.

Heart of it, service. So it's a bipartisan.

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. True service can be with five people, but yes, my ego does like it, but I also tame My ego, you know, so even though I know it's my ego, after a million followers, I said, finish, you know, stop. I don't even look anymore. You know, enough, finish. And when people write to me and they go, oh my God, you have a million followers, I immediately say, please don't buy into the hype. You know, it doesn't really. It didn't change my life an iota, except maybe in people's perceptions of me, which again, is not the real me. So it doesn't matter. So in essence, it didn't change me at all.

What I love about podcasting as we say goodbye, is I always get glimpses of the real person. And some people have more masks than others. You seem like a straight shooter right from the beginning and I really respect that. I love that it's something where I have guests come in the studio here and we do in persons, and. And as soon as the camera goes off, they're like a different person. And so that's a way that I can give guidance to my audience as well, to say, like, how somebody treats you in all situations is who they are, not just one situation. And I've really loved this one conversation we've had. I'm looking forward to following your work. And obviously the books are linked below. Now you have an event coming out. It's called Evolve 2023 and you can get tickets at Evolve with Dr. Shefali dot com. There's also a link in the show notes. They'll have a few days to go to this event. It looks exciting. Where's the event going to be?

So it's a three day immersive retreat into wellness and growth and transformation. And I'm pretty much on the stage for the entire three days, except for a few, few guests that I have. It's in Atlanta. And I really lead people on deep, meditative, inward processes to break free from dysfunctional patterns. So, you know, Mendy summits are about, you know, one motivational speaker after another. This is like a steroid well being retreat. You know, really immerse yourself into your inner being and come out of it more conscious, more evolved, more elevated. It's for parents, it's for non parents, it's for single people, for relationships, all of it. I'm so excited. So, yeah, people can find it on my website and I do have limited scholarships available, so they can go to my website and find out.

Beautiful. Well, if y' all are healing, feeling this and feeling like you want some healing or some transformation in your life, definitely check out this event, especially if you're feeling it right now when you're in your car or maybe you're watching it on YouTube. Dr. Shefelli, thank you for being here with us on the podcast. I really enjoyed it.

Thank you, Josh. Thanks for having me.

Okay, until we talk to you guys again soon, we're both wishing you love and wellness. Hey, thanks for watching this video. If you love this video, hit subscribe.

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