FINDING WELLNESS + HAPPINESS + RELATIONSHIP IN A DIGITAL WORLD | DR. ANNA AKBARI

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Wellness force radio episode 106 with sociologist and best selling author Dr. Anna AKB.

This is why we have so many people who have sleeping issues, because we're so addicted to the information and our screens. This is why we have an erosion, I believe, of civility and an intimacy of human relationships. Because we're mistaking these digital likes and asynchronous semi one directional exchanges as meaningful connection. These are the problems of our time and they're very real and we will have to deal with them. I think we're already seeing in some of the younger generations backlashes, you know, where people do want to just unplug for a while.

What's up my friend? It's Josh Trent and welcome back to another episode. This is your weekly access to global experts in all things wellness, behavior change and new technologies. In this podcast, together we'll discover the connections between our emotions and healthy habits to live life well and enjoy the process. This podcast is brought to you by Perfect Supplements, a company who actually walks the talk with their values of pesticide free non GMO real food supplements that fuel us for the wellness journey, save money, support the show, get more wellness. In the process, head over to perfectsupplements.com wellnessforce Enter code wellnessforce to save 10% off your entire order. In a world of exponential technology and more connected devices than ever, how do we stay connected to the people, things and wellness that we all need to thrive? I mean, we all know technology is this double edged sword, right? And like any tool, it can either heal and connect us or it can harm and disconnect us. Well, this is a topic that's been on the front of my mind so much lately and today on the podcast I'm beyond excited to talk about creating happiness and wellness in our digital buzzing world with best selling author, speaker, sociologist and entrepreneur Dr. Anna Akbari. Now, Anna was forced to take back control of her own life after entering the real world during the 2008 financial crisis where she learned firsthand one of the best things about startups was their ability to pivot, basically to start all over from ground zero. She found her path to personal success was no different than these Silicon Valley Startup theories as it's really about maximizing flexibility, measuring ongoing results and not avoiding failure, but by embracing defeat, making that part of the learning lessons on the path we walk in our wellness. And so on this episode we're going into depth about what we all can do when we experience failures and how those failures can actually unlock our next success. We'll talk about becoming a better pivoter, how the ability to pivot is really what makes us strong. A happiness architecture Creating happiness and wellness in this digital distracting world what decision fatigue is Once we've identified that we're in decision fatigue, what are the ways we can get out of that and make those quality decisions that we know is best for us? Why everyone at some level has become addicted to the information on our screens and how mental models can hold us hostage. Understanding Anna's three part formula for creating happiness and finding our life's calling by unlearning conventional wisdom around money and happiness so we can really step into the life we want. We'll get to dork out together and get smarter by understanding Maslow's hierarchy of needs and how that relates to our happiness. And the last section of the show, we're talking about negotiating relationships for the singles and the couples in this digital world, how gender roles are being changed by technology and understanding the balance between the masculine and feminine. And in our current world, what Anna calls being analog in a digital world, what are the tactical and tangible strategies we can all add to our ways of being that are gonna bring us that wellness in our body and in our relationships that we want and we deserve? Let's slide into this one of a kind conversation with Dr. Anna Akbari. Dr. Anna Akbari is a sociologist, entrepreneur, innovation consultant and the author of Start up youp Hustle and Hack youk Way to Happiness, a book about maximizing flexibility and measuring ongoing results. Not avoiding failure or reaching one particular end go but through embracing defeat, analyzing it and failing up. Anna believes it's often the stumbles that pave the way for real happiness. A prominent thought leader, she's a frequent speaker and writer for such outlets like ted, cnn, the Atlantic, Daily Worth and the Financial Times. With a rich history as a former professor at New York University as well as Parsons New School for Design, her research focuses on visual and virtual self presentation technology and human intersects and dating and interpersonal relationships and happiness and well being. Anna, welcome to the show.

Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

This is gonna be fun. We were talking and Ted Rice, our mutual friend, introduced us. I was lucky Enough to get a copy of your book, which is highlighted.

To the T. Oh, wonderful.

And it's start up your life. I'm looking forward to diving into the book today, Anna, before we go there, from CNN to TED and all these major media outlets, your personality really shines through. I'm curious though, can you share with us something unique or interesting that most people might not know about you?

You know, I think one of the problems with writing and talking for a living is you sometimes think you've told everyone everything at some point. So this may exist out there and you might already know this. I am a big karaoke enthusiast.

I did not know that.

I co founded the New York Tech Karaoke meetup and I used to host these kind of wild costumed karaoke parties in New York for many years. So I'm a big karaoke person and I also roller skate. And I used to roller skate with a group in New York and now the group in la. They're kind of the disco like old school roller skaters that skate outside in Central park or in Venice beach and they've got a DJ and everyone's just dancing and on their old school quads. So those are two fun things about me that I actually do mention them in the book at one point, but it's not something that, you know, obviously most of my conversations don't center on those. So I wish more would.

Yes. Well, I'm glad we started on that foot then, because a lot of the topics we're going to cover today around happiness in this sometimes insanely busy digital world and how that relates to our wellness, you know, there's many different moving parts of this. And before we get into the sections of your book, my favorite chapter, by the way, was the one called Hustle and Grow. The thing I wanted to really focus on with you is everyone's got a path. Everyone's got like an origin story of why they came to be what they came to be as. And before I dig into that story, though, I want to know, why did you name the book start up your life and then I want to hear about your path?

Yeah, well, I named it start up your life because one of the things that I learned, and this is kind of answering both of those questions at the same time. But one of the things that I learned over the years is that the more I could operate like a startup, the more successful and happier I was going to be, hence the title. And I would often talk to people and tell them I'm able to do this, or I just made this decision. And these weren't necessarily glamorous choices, but they were things that many people felt were out of reach for them, even individuals who were at the time financially more well off than me. And that's because I was figuring out, you know, life hacks and figuring out how to do things that might immediately seem inaccessible. And that is what startups do all the time. That's what they have to do to be relevant. Sure. And to beat out larger competition. And so the more I applied that thinking to my life, the more of an edge I got, the happier I was. As I like to say, it's easier to be happy in the sludge if you think that way. And much of our life is spent in the sludge. It's not all spent in those, you know, top of your game milestones. Yeah, but that's the part we ignore. We're living for those milestones and thinking that that's going to make us happy when it's all that in between stuff that we need to sort out.

And you learned in 2008 there was a massive financial crisis which we were all a part of. I remember at that time I was a health professional and I lost half my clients in a month. What was that time for you? How did that shape how you wrote the book?

As I mentioned in the book, I finished my PhD at that point. And it's not like as an academic, my was to come out of the gate and start making millions of dollars. But, you know, even academia was very affected by that. Every industry was touched. And so the academic model shifted a lot and it became more important than ever for me to have, you know, other side hustles that were helping me to earn money. And, you know, that forced me to grow and diversify in a way that maybe I wouldn't have done had the job market been different at the time. And that's something that I noticed in so many friends and peers at that time, was that there were all these people who had been relatively unhappy in their life and career paths. And then everything that they had taken for granted that they thought would always be something they could count on, stability was pulled out from underneath them. And so they thought, well, shoot, I might as well go and do what I want to do if this thing I don't want to do isn't secure anymore. And I think as devastating as it was was for a lot of people initially, I think it actually ended up being liberating for a good number of people as well.

And I think no matter if we're an entrepreneur, a busy parent, someone who's building their own business, or just someone who wants to take control of their life or restart their life. This ability to pivot you talk about a lot in the book. You know, the speed of pivot. I think what happens to a lot of systems and people and businesses is they become this massive battleship and it just can't be turned. It takes like a year to make a change. You know, we see this with large companies.

Yeah.

How does the ability to pivot when it comes to our life and our wellness, our relationships, I think it's a metaphor for everything. Our ability to pivot, how do we craft that? What are the beginning stages of becoming a better pivoter?

The initial thing to do is to stop investing so much in the initial idea of what your singular outcome can be. Right. So if you are always just thinking, this is what I'm working toward and only this thing, only this one thing will do, then you're not going to be open to a pivot, because any kind of a shift in your focus or in the outcome is going to feel like a failure and an unacceptable outcome. But if you say, okay, here's where I think I'm going and here's how I'm going to experiment to get there, then you're getting constant feedback and you're readjusting that end point accordingly so you don't get overly attached to something that maybe wasn't suitable or desirable or feasible in the first place. And I think that's the biggest mistake most people make.

Take us back then. I mean, I think we're all pivoting in our lives constantly. Was there one pivot looking back, that was the biggest one that allowed you to create what you wanted to create?

Well, I've certainly made several over the course of my life. I actually give a talk on multi dimensional and non traditional career paths and piecing together a narrative around that. And when I do, a lot of people come up and talk about how much they connect with it. Because we have been taught over and over that we should do one thing, do it really well, excel in it, climb the ranks. And if you diverge from that, either you have an attention span problem or you couldn't hack it, or any number of things where, you know, that's not the correct path for a lot of us, especially if we have different interests or even just want to diversify our income. I think understanding that a singular path is not the only or the right path for most people. But for me, the pivot That I think changed my life the most was actually when I decided to leave New York. And that's not to say that everyone should leave New York, but I had been there a long time. I was no longer happy as a human being. It had nothing to do necessarily with my professional opportunities. In fact, that was why I was reticent to make the pivot in the first place, is because everyone kept telling me, and it seemed most obvious and practical to me, that the majority of my career opportunities were in New York. Well, of course they were, because that's where my biggest network was. That's where I had established myself. But I knew that I always felt like the better version of myself in California. And so I kind of, kind of dragged my feet for a while. And then eventually I literally woke up one day and I said, I am going to impose a six month deadline on myself to make this move happen. And it could be anywhere in California, but I just need to get there and I will figure out how to make the professional pieces fit. And sure enough, it happened.

Yes.

And you know, the irony is that when I started following my heart and not doing what was just immediately professionally practical, all these new professional opportunities for success started flowing in. And I think many people have had some similar experience like that, or could have if they open themselves to that.

Absolutely. I mean, I can flash to four major points in my life like that, and I know someone's listening right now and they're thinking like, well, why did she actually leave? Like, what was going on? Cause I'm curious about that too. I want to dig a little bit more into your story because it relates to how we're going to talk about health, wealth, relationships, happiness in this digital world. What was going on in New York that made you want to leave? Why did you really feel the pull for California?

I felt that my values had shifted over the years, that being in nature had become a much, much bigger priority for me on an everyday basis. Something that might seem like, to some people as a trivial luxury, like sunshine didn't feel like a trivial luxury to me. It felt really central to my well being and my personal happiness. As I said it to myself, I needed to move toward the light. That's really how I envisioned it. And that was my relationship with Mo. And at the same time, you know, I'd had several good friends that had left the city and I started to feel really kind of disconnected and not so much a part of a thriving community that at one time had sustained me there. And then from a professional perspective, as much as I loved academia, I was kind of hitting a wall with it because it necessitates that you're in one place geographically every week for the majority of the year, with the exception of the summer, unless you teach summer school. And then you're there and it doesn't you to take on projects that might require you for say, a week at a time or longer. And as someone who wanted to have their foot in both academia and the entrepreneurial world, it was incredibly limiting as to what I could actually achieve and my path ahead as an entrepreneur and also to make money. But keep in mind, I didn't move to California thinking this is where I'm going to really, you know, cash in. It was just that I felt so limited there. I figured, well, it can't be more restricted. So it was both a personal and a professional motivation. Even though I hadn't fully vetted all the professional circumstances. It was just, I honestly operated from my heart and from my gut and everything fell in place. However, I will say this, I did the work like I did the work of reaching out to everyone I knew, asking for intros, you know, exploring every option possible. So I think where a lot of self help falls short is they, they're like just, just envision this future.

Right.

Law of attraction, that's all fine, but you have to do the work. So it's both, you have to get out of your own way and then you have to do the work.

Yeah. And what I'm hearing from you is this path to happiness, it's so unique to every single human and with health, wealth and relationships. This is a great segue because in your TED Talk you had a happiness architecture. Yes, it's this framework for digital happiness. There's three parts. One is the characterizations of how possibilities and capabilities of how tech affects our happiness, and then also the dichotomies that come up from these and then lastly how this is transforming culture. Can you tell people a really high snapshot of your TEDx talk and break that down a little bit? Because I've never heard a happiness architecture for digital before.

This is a conversation that I've been having for years in both the classroom, in universities, as well as in lectures that I give to companies and groups. And we're at the this interesting point in time where technology is such a crucial element of our lives and it affords us so many wonderful conveniences, and yet as we all know it simultaneously diminishes and deteriorates the quality of our lives, and yet we're not sure how to negotiate its place. And so there are a lot of social scientists like myself trying to grapple with this issue from different perspectives. But what I wanted to do in the TED talk was sort of break it down so that we could really see, okay, here's the larger cultural shifts. Here are these sort of negative components, and then here are all the perks that generations ago never really had an opportunity to cash in on. But the number one thing I think that we wrestle with are boundaries around it and the meaning of connection. A lot of challenges that we have with technology boil down to those two things.

And I love that you quoted Albert Einstein in your presentation where he says, why does this magnificent applied science, which saves work and also makes life easier, bring us so little happiness? The simple answer is because we have not yet learned to make sensible use of it. And when we look at how tech affects our everyday processes, I mean, I can't tell you how many notifications I get on my phone. I know you are the same. And we're bombarded with just stimuli all day long. We can only make so many quality decisions throughout the day. How have you used that knowledge in your work, how you wrote the book to have less decision fatigue and then contrast that with the happiness architecture?

Yeah. Decision fatigue is so real, and it's something that I preach to my clients all the time, is trying to eliminate that. And I think while we hear that term, the majority of individuals do not truly embrace that into the fabric of their lives and the decisions that they make. So I think it can start with things as simple as what you eat every day, how you dress yourself. These are ways that I have routinized my life without taking away the interest in the color, you know, And I think that's why people, they shy away from it. They think, oh, well, if I start eliminating choice, I'm gonna become this stuffy, boring person. And that's simply not true. You just have to understand the economics of your time, your brain power and the energy you have to put into this stuff. Those are two things that are big for me. And, you know, I think anytime you work on your own and are an entrepreneur, creating structure for yourself and sticking to it is another way that I don't have to motiv myself every day. There's just. There's a structure. But the interesting thing is that structure is nimble.

Sure.

So you create these guidelines, whether it's what you eat or how you dress or how you make certain decisions or the schedule for your everyday life, and then take Real time cues as they come and you adjust as needed. So it's a little bit of both.

Let's bookmark that exact point because I want to talk more about the areas of life and culture that are transformed by digital happiness. Can you paint a picture of what digital happiness might look like here in 2017? If we can design our life to have happiness in this digital landscape, if.

We were to create a kind of digital happiness score, I would say we wouldn't be doing very well right now.

This is good. I appreciate the honesty.

I think as a culture, it's a real challenge. Look, there's a reason that people are willing to pay a lot of money to go to not very luxury places where they don't have cell phone service or they aren't allowed to use their phones because they have not given themselves permission to unplug. This is why we have so many people who have sleeping issues, because we're so addicted to the information and our screens. This is why we have an erosion, I believe, of civility and an intimacy of human relationships, because we're mistaking these digital likes and asynchronous semi one directional exchanges as meaningful connection. These are the problems of our time, and they're very real, and we will have to deal with them. I think we're already seeing in some of the younger generations, backlashes, you know, where people do want to just unplug for a while.

It's such a great point. I mean, even in my own life, you know, I produce two shows, so I have Wellness Force. I have a fitness technology podcast in the fitness industry. And with all the work I'm doing, this is incredibly entertaining and joyous to me that I get to connect with a real human. Because the rest of my life I'm like on the computer working and I have to schedule my breaks. I'm proactive in my approach. And you talk about this in the book Designing Our Life so that we can actually create the result that we want to create. One of the things you talked about is that everything you need to know you unlearned. What did you mean by that?

This goes back to that idea of a singular path and the rigidity that keeps us from pivoting is we have these things called mental models that really hold us hostage. And these mental models are constructed of the reality that we live from birth, all the visual cues, the dialogue that surrounds us. These all help to form mental models. And our mental models are useful and that they help us to make sense of our days. They help us to go on autopilot when we need it. But the problem is we need to be able to stop the autopilot some of the time. What startups do better than anyone is they invert assumptions, they poke holes, and what we think is a truth about how an industry should operate or how culture will function or what people will want. And it says, well, what if we tried something completely different? And you don't see big corporations wanting to do that because they have. They think too much to lose and stakeholders to account for. And so mistakes are, you know, a lot. But the scrappy startups can afford that. And so what they do is they unlearn as they innovate, and we have to do that in our lives as well. So, for instance, to go back to my pivot from New York to California, I had to say, well, what if this isn't what my career is all about or where all of my opportunities are? You know, what if I actually don't become irrelevant if I step outside New York City, as many people in that city would have have you believe? So I inverted all these assumptions that I had bought into and I took a risk, and my life is forever changed as a result of it.

And I'm having this question pop up because when I was in my early 20s, I lost 80 pounds, I moved to Hawaii, I had a radical life change. And I heard a quote recently, and it reminded me of something I had felt at that time. And it was, wherever you go, there you are.

Yes.

You take everything with you. Your beliefs, your ways of being, your habits. How do we know from a compass standpoint if we should change our environment drastically or if we need to stay and do the inner work?

Think all great transitions or pivots necessitate a geographic move. But a lot of the work that I do with clients, both on an individual basis and on a corporate basis, are entities that are going through major transformations. Because when we're going through transformation, we are more ripe and open to things. I give a lecture on relationships, and I have this theory that we should always date like we're on vacation. Because when we're on vacation and we have some kind of a vacation romance, we go all in. We tell the person who we are. We're completely upfront, we're so ourselves. And we're willing to really engage with them and explore that connection and intimacy. And yet our expectations are tempered. You know, if something evolves, great. If it doesn't, then this was a wonderful exchange. There's nothing to lose. And so if we can capture A little bit of that in our everyday lives, I think we'd be much better off. But to answer your question, yes, I absolutely had been doing internal work and frustration. But, you know, this wasn't a decision. Even though I woke up and decided to impose a six month deadline, this was something I'd been wrestling with for years.

What I hear from you too, in, you know, dating like you're on vacation, which I love that you're talking about being really emotionally open, you know, coming from a place of heart centered communication. And I think the challenge for myself and a lot of people is that there's old stories running, you know, there's relationships that didn't work out. There's old software in there that's uploading to our mainframe that continues to just give the same files that we don't want.

That's right.

So in that same, same regard, how do we do this? How do we remove some of those old files? What have you seen work from your research and everything you do?

Well, the more that we can keep our minds ripe and ready for change, the better we will be. Constantly pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, constantly introducing new variables to your life. These things keep you fresh, they keep you exploring new trajectories and new ways of conceptualizing of your life for the work that you do without needing to do one of these massive overhauls. I mean, that's the goal, right? Use my example. Not as I want to replicate that exactly, but say, okay, how can I actually just start implementing this every day now so that that pivot is gradual, so that state of transition is constant. Now even if we do that, there are moments that are going to catch us off guard that are going to seem catastrophic. That's where I think truly operating in a state of transition, where you actually accept that change is not coming someday, it's already here. It's just to varying degrees that you are ready to deal with whatever comes your way. And again, you're not overly attached to that singular outcome. If you do, you're going to just feel like a failure or you're going to point fingers at people instead of just dealing with it and moving forward and being open to the new opportunities that present themselves.

Yeah, Anna, being open is a muscle, right? I mean, the same way you go to the gym, you know, reinforcing an open mindset. It's like, how can we get our community? How can we get our events, our social outings and all these things. There's actually a chapter in your book called get yout Mind. Right. You quoted Paramahana Yogananda stating, since you are alone responsible for your thoughts, only you can change them.

Yeah.

Why did you choose that specific quote and talk to us about the interrogating our passions? Because I think it goes a little bit with making big decisions that might make us move.

Well, you know, it's interesting because that quote really, really speaks to. I had been working on a tech startup. It was centered on connections, and this was in New York. And, you know, I was working with some business partners, and we were trying to get some traction and raise venture money for about 18 months. And it just didn't happen for many reasons, which I won't get into in detail here, but it didn't happen. And it was very, very devastating. And all the while, while I was trying to raise money for this, these VCs would say the same thing to me. They would say, you know, this is interesting, but how about this other project that you work on, this Intelligent Image Consulting? We like that. Why don't you do something with that? And I was so closed to it. I was so incredibly closed. I wasn't open to exploring that possibility. And it wasn't until I had completely failed at the other thing that I could open my eyes to it. And what happened was, within a matter of weeks, I started reconceiving of what could I do with this company, how could I possibly scale it? And so I went from being pretty devastated to feeling like I was on the rise, even though my financial situation hadn't changed, that failure hadn't disappeared. Literally nothing else had changed except for my mindset. And so I really think that that quote captures that. But your other question was about interrogating our passions. And I like to tell people that their opportunity for both success and happiness is at this intersection of what you're passionate about, what you are actually skilled at or could become skilled at at, and what people are demanding, what your audience is looking for. And if you can find that intersection of those three things and use that to interrogate which passions are viable and which aren't, you're gonna have a much smoother path and a much happier one. We can't just assume we hear so much about, oh, I just, I'm so passionate about this, I should do that, right? Well, not everyone should do everything they're passionate about, right?

Haven't you heard a friend who wants to be a pro singer and you listen to them sing and it sounds like a cat throwing up on a plate? I mean, sometimes it's like we don't have to follow our dreams. Maybe we're a little delusional. And I think this inventory, this process you talk about, this interrogating our passions, I think it's this fascinating way to dive deep into the honest look of why we do what we do. How did that come to you? How did you figure out interrogating our passions? What does that mean to the reader?

You know, I mean, I think it was this thing that I again kind of in some ways learned the hard way is that, you know, I might have had a certain thing that I was really interested in or even something that I was really interested in and that I was good at, but my audience didn't want it. Or maybe I could find something that my audience wanted and that I was good at, but I had no love for it and so it wouldn't be something that could sustain me long term. And so, you know, over the course of time and finding various opportunities that were only maybe one or two of these three things, I came to really fully understand and name what the kind of three part formula is for happiness success. When it comes to your personal and.

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It's about what you're passionate about, what you're skilled at or could be skilled at, and what your audience demands.

Yeah. This is the Venn diagram almost. And in the center we find our calling, right?

Exactly. That's the sweet spot.

We look at the role of money in this, Anna. You know, money obviously doesn't make people happy, but it does help us create space to fill it with happiness. So chapter eight, my favorite, Hustle and Grow. This is a quote I want to read here. And it says when it comes to money and happiness, it's less about specific numbers and more about the choices that surround those numbers. Studies find that the amount of money you make matters less than how you spend it. And while money alone can't buy happiness, strategic spending can significantly enhance your well being. How can we strategically spend for well being?

Well, we hear a lot about money can't buy happiness is one of those pieces of conventional wisdom that I think everyone should unlearn because it's so limited. That's the problem with conventional wisdom is it's lacking in no nuance. And life is all nuance. There's so much nuance to life, so much I love nuance. And that's not to say that we can't ever find something that's more black white. But the majority of life operates in some kind of a gray area. So money can't buy happiness. Anyone who has ever really struggled financially, it was going to be the first to be like, oh yes it can. And I would be the first one to say that, you know, I did not grow up with money. I grew up in very modest, quite poor circumstances. I was raised by a single mother. And it was really hard. And I never take for granted the value of money. That does not mean that I have made career decisions based exclusively on wanting to be rich. No one becomes an academic for that purpose. But I do value being in a position where you don't have to struggle every day because if you are struggling financially, you don't have the energy to create. You don't have the energy to celebrate as much. You don't have the energy to relax.

Absolutely.

And these are all really crucial elements to being the kind of person that we want to be. So I think the financial component is not to be underestimated. That said, you know, my advice there in terms of it's how you spend your money. We've been hearing a lot more lately about how it's experiences, not just objects that build long term happiness. I personally love to entertain, for instance, and so I love hosting parties, I love bringing people together. And that might seem like a frivolous expense, but the amount of money that I invest in that experience nurtures my community and creates bonds that are. Not to make it sound cheesy, but it's very invaluable. I receive that back and then some in relationship dividends over and over again. So how we spend our money really makes a big difference.

Yeah, and I don't think it's cheesy. I would love to come to a roller skate party where we could sing karaoke. I think that'd be incredible.

Every party should have both of those things.

Absolutely. Sign me up. Well, I'm thinking about what you said too, and it contrasts. It brings up something for me around Maslow's hierarchy of needs. When you mentioned, you know, we can't be creative, we can't come from a space of open heartedness if we're stressed about our basic physiological necessities and then above that is safety and then love, belonging, esteem and actualization. So I think a lot of us, and for a lot of years I was coming from being at the top of the triangle in my mind. But my finances weren't taken care of. So I wanted all these grand things. I wanted to serve a million people. I wanted to have all these things that I was contributing to the planet. However, the base needs weren't taken care of. Would you say that that's the inventory that everyone kind of shies away from? They have dreams, they have desires, they have directions they want to go. Yet there's no true emotional inventory of those basic safety and physiological needs.

Yeah, I mean, I think if that's a concern and if you feel that those might be threatened, that's going to ra hold you back and rightfully so. But of course, as we see in, you know, happiness documentaries and interviews with individuals in developing countries, you know, it's all very relative. We can make less money as long as our neighbors in our community are living at that level as well. So that kind of sets the bar. And if you're worried that a life decision is going to set you back financially, be really honest with yourself. If it's just going to slightly lower some of the luxuries that actually aren't necessarily bringing you that much happiness in the first place or if it's going to threaten your wellbeing and your sense of security, because those are two really different things.

Oh, I loved how you segmented that. And I want to shift here because we talked about wealth, we talked about health. I want to talk about relationships. This is something that you dive into a lot in your work. And I'm curious if you think can love and relationships thrive, thrive in this digital world? And what does that look like? Because I have some questions for you about feminine and masculine balance.

That is the challenge of our time. I really, really believe it is negotiating relationships in this digital world. It's so hard and it is leaving so many people unsatisfied and hurt and honestly very alone, I think. You know, of course, one of the first places we go when we talk about this is online dating. And that largely replacing the way that people meet and date and connect. And when we do that, that changes so much. It changes the preciousness with which we rest our attention on any given individual. Because there is a disposability mentality. There is this sense of there's always more. This marketplace that's just seemingly infinitely available to us and that erodes our capabilities to create real intimacy and long term connection. One of the things I talk about in the book, I talk about first of all the dating and relationship component, but then I also talk about how do you find relationship flow in long term relationships? And for that I turn to Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, of course, the sort of big voice in flow and positive psychology. And when he speaks about relationships, he talks about how finding happiness is not so much in trading to a new novelty, but rather digging deep, taking the time and putting in the work. And that's the key component with relationships. We're back at that work element again, putting in the work with them and finding a deeper place, finding a deeper connection, learning more, going on this long term journey with someone. And that, that is where we see consistently the happiest individuals, the people who choose to do that, you know, And I can almost hear especially some of your female audience, I'm guessing, saying, but what if I want that and I can't find someone who will go on that journey with me? And I think that's where the challenge of this online dating community comes to. So you gotta, you gotta get crafty and start seeking other ways of connecting with people, because there are still people out there that want connection. But I think it has become Harder to find.

Yes. And I'm one of them. So I wanna delve into the gender roles because as technology accelerates and men and women's ability to. To connect with these online dating apps, you know, Tinder and swiping and all these things. Yeah. How do you think this is changing the traditional masculine and feminine roles? In other words, technology grows, and then men want to come from a place of authentic masculinity. Women want to be empowered to relax into their femininity. How will technology help us in that way? What can we be mindful of?

Well, one of the things I talk about in the chapter on relationships are pickup artists. And, you know, a lot of people don't love pickup artists. They don't have the best reputation. But I think, you know, so certainly there are good ones and there are bad ones, and you can use your power for good or evil in any context. But one of the things that, you know, dating coaches do for a lot of primarily men is they teach them how to be analog in a digital world. And we find it very disarming now when someone, for lack of a better phrase, has the balls to approach us in person and either ask us out or strike up a conversation because we're so used to those relationships being sparked primarily first digitally. So there's this really kind of timid approach to it. And so to speak to your question about masculinity, you know, these guys might not even consider themselves to be hyper masculine guys. They need not even be the most attractive guys in the room. But just. Just stepping up and talking to someone and taking that leap, having the social skills and the courage to be able to do that, I think is something that is available to men now more than ever because it's become such a novelty. Because online, if we're just kind of flirting in this digital space, you know, not to ascribe any particular characteristics, masculine or feminine, but, you know, there's not that traditional masculinity there, I would say.

Would you say that that makes the feminine space not as trusting because there's no analog in the digital world?

Yeah, I think so. I think it makes us not as trusting in both respects that from a digital perspective, you know, we become kind of cynical and disillusioned and think that all the men are just there for the quote, unquote wrong reasons and have that disposability mentality. And then we become equally distrusting of some fine guy that just wants to strike up a conversation with us in person. You know, like, what's wrong with him, how is he approaching me?

And I love that you brought this up, because too many choices leads to no choice at all sometimes. And specifically when we look at tech, yes, it's exploding and it's increasing our ability to connect. Look what we're doing. We're here on a podcast, right, sharing a message. And I'm curious what you think about this authentic part, because as the tech increases, we're gonna have Internet of things, we're gonna have exponential technology, if you follow the work of Peter Diamandis. And our ability to connect will continually increase. Is it just the analog, the old school activities that men get to? My question is, how do women maintain in this space empowered in their femininity? What does that look like in the technology world?

Their sort of counterpart to the men approaching them is to put themselves out there, to challenge themselves. When they walk into a restaurant or a bar or a social gathering and they're either waiting for a friend or they're by themselves to put their phone away, to look up, to make eye contact, to be someone that anyone would want to talk to so that it's not all on the guys. So that's one component. I think the other is just like I said with career paths, I think diversifying your options is really, really important. Experimenting. I see the apps, I see online dating and the apps as just one factor. They're just one outlet for meeting people. They should not be your sole focus. But again, it takes work. You have to be consistently putting yourself out there. As I always say to women, chances are the man in your dreams is not to come knock on your door. It's not going to happen. So you have to take control. You need to put it out there, both to the individuals that you date and to your friends in your life, that this is what you're looking for, this is what you're open to. And just like with all the professional pursuits that I've ever been involved in, I try to talk about it to as many people as possible. You know, I want to put it out there because inevitably each person will have something new to add to the conversation and they might have a suggestion that could lead you somewhere else and then it might lead to an intro that you'd never imagined. So one of the non romantic related, but still relevant to romance suggestions that I give in the book is the investment in our life. VCs startups have venture capitalists that invest in their idea and their company, but we have people in our lives that give us advice, that make valuable introduction, that counsel Us when we're down. They play a pivotal role in determining whether we are going to be happy and successful. But we have to continuously invest in these individuals as well. That's the trick. It's a mutual feedback loop. And you never know who is going to introduce you to someone who may become your significant other, or may become a new business partner, or may hire you for your dream job. And so one of the ways, and I talk about this a lot in the lectures that I give one of the topic I'm so passionate about, we cut off that opportunity to have life feces if we engage in ghosting. And this is another byproduct of the digital age. Are you familiar with that term?

Oh yeah, I've been ghosted. Right. I've heard another one called catfished. Have you heard of this one?

Oh, yeah, yeah.

So tell us about ghosting.

So catfish is sort of where you're duped, right?

Yeah.

And ghosting is when you've had one or three or more dates with someone, when you've not only. We're not talking just about cold calls to someone and they don't call you back for a professional pursuit, where you've had actual physical, perhaps business meetings with someone or you know, you have a proposal that's been sent, there's some kind of investment, there's like a mutual acknowledgement and then the either party just completely disappears and never responds again, leaving that other party to be rightfully confused and to be put in a really a position they would consider to be somewhat pathetic, where they then have to actively pursue the other person just to get an answer, just to get a response. Which could be as simple as I don't think we're right for each other or the timing isn't right, but you know, let's keep in touch. And here's the thing, it is selfish for anyone to ghost someone else, but what you're basically saying is that you love to be pursued because it's not actually practical. From a time perspective, the time that you will spend reading emails or texts or fielding calls from that person is going to take more time than it would take you to send a response of no, thank you, let's keep in touch. Timing's not right. Whatever. Link in with them after that.

Yes.

So I tell everyone, give yourself a no ghosting rule in both your professional and your personal life because no one wins. And ultimately you are just too cowardly to tell that person the truth once you tell it to them, to them to deal with it.

And whether it's relationships or friendships or life and work. I think it shows something about the individual who's not responding. Like they don't have the strength or the emotional bandwidth to actually take a quick inventory of why they don't want to respond. They'd rather just push it away as if it's going to go away. But then there's four emails, seven text messages like this. You brought up such a great point. Surprisingly interesting conversation for the areas we went. We've gone to some fun places and this is our last section of the show. It's seven fast questions for seven real answers. Are you ready, Anna?

I think I'm ready.

I didn't tell you the questions.

I don't know what they are.

What's the best piece of advice you've ever received when it comes to cultivating happiness?

All right, I would say the best piece of advice is the advice that I learned the hard way is to follow my heart, not just always think about being practical. And if you follow your heart and you keep in mind that sort of passion, practicality, audience formula, then you will be happy.

What is a compass you might use when it comes to hustling? To know when to grit down or to know when to quit something?

Well, everyone has their tipping point where they is like a breaking point for them. And so you have to decide what that is. And when that time comes, submit, submit to it and embrace it and reflect on that. Use it as an opportunity to reflect, because it's when you actively reflect on those moments after the hustling, after the potential failure that you actually can grow the most. We don't grow the most when we're thriving. We grow the most when we had some kind of a failure and are forced to reflect and make something of it.

I think that was the entire show in one sentence right there that was so powerful. What's something about your own personal wellness habits that have changed from all your work in research and writing and clients about your own wellness? What's actually shifted?

I have a very different perspective on cohesiveness with which I want to live my life. I don't segregate business and pleasure largely. I like to socialize with people I might want to collaborate with, and I want to collaborate with people I might want to socialize. And I see the riches that surround me even in moments where I'm pretty devastated, either personally or professionally. And by the way, that still happens for me. There are still moments that are devastating and that I have to pick myself back up from. But I think when you Start to see that cohesion, it becomes a lot easier to deal with it. So blurring those spheres, I think a lot between the professional and the personal.

What'S been one or many emotional intelligence, personal development trainings or books, either in person or reading a book, what has made an impact and what kind of shaped the way that you wrote start up your life.

This didn't change the way I wrote it, but it does, you know, and we hear about meditation a lot. We really, really do. And one of the things I say, actually, in the introduction is that meditation alone isn't going to save you. However, I think personal. Personal development through mindfulness is a really key component, component to any leader, to any successful person. In fact, I am sure you've interviewed so many people and that. That is a big, big component of the way they live their lives. So that's. That's an important one. I know you only asked for one, but the other thing that I think gets ignored is play outlets. And that goes back to my initial comments about loving to do karaoke and to roller skate, you know, and these are things that haven't made me any money, that weren't sort of strategic things that I involved myself with. But creating the space and committing to a schedule where there's a place for play, I think is crucial to not only your survival, but your flourishing and your happiness. It bleeds into the way you're gonna treat people professionally. It's gonna bleed into the interactions you have in your romantic relationships. Being safe, someone who knows how to play is really, really crucial to being happy and to being a good leader. I think.

What makes you laugh the most? I mean, what makes you laugh so much that your stomach hurts after you're done laughing?

I do watch a lot of political satire. I love political satire. So that certainly on any given day basis, that certainly gives me some comic relief. But again, you know, surrounding myself with funny people, people with people who brighten me no matter what mood I'm in. And we all know people like that. And that's not to say that it's a sense of false sort of perma positivity, because that's not realistic. But people who know how to find the humor and the humanity in situations and surrounding yourself with those individuals, I mean, that's what I try to do.

I love that. This is almost the last question. What do you want to leave the world when you're gone?

That is the big question, isn't it? Well, one of the things that I say in some of the lectures I give is that, you know, we may not like everything we see happening in the world around us and we can't always change all of that, but we can decide how we're going to design our lives and how we want to touch the communities that we encounter on an everyday basis and therefore what kind of legacy we want to leave. And I think if I, I can create anything that will over time and residually, whether it's as an artifact like a book or through kindness that I've passed through individuals that will improve people's lives, that will make them happier, that will give them more of a sense of purpose or a stronger connection to their identity, then I will feel pretty happy about that.

What is wellness to you? How would you define wellness in your life?

It's such an important part of my life and it's part of why I made so many decisions the last several years. And for me, wellness is about creating balance, whether it's sleep, diet, exercise, meditation, while also never forgetting the value of spontaneity. You know, last year I up and I moved to Australia and worked from there for the better part of the year. That wasn't exactly the most practical, calculated move and yet it created such a wonderful sense of wellness for me because it reignited parts of my brain and my, my love for wanderlust that it recharged me. And so always making space for that, not getting overly attached to this rigid notion of balance and understanding that balance also sometimes includes doing things that people might think you're a little bit crazy for.

The crazy ones have the most fun. This has been such a fun conversation and like I said earlier, it was so surprising where we went and I'm so happy we went there. All the show notes today are wellnessforce.com startupyourlife Anna, where can people learn more about you?

They can go to my website, Anna Akbar. Com. They can also Visit my company sociologyofstyle.com and of course they can follow me on Twitter or Instagram.

Naakbari well, thanks so much for what you do. I want to honor this space that you're creating for people to be happy and well in this sometimes crazy digital world. So thanks so much for what you do for wellness.

Thank you and same to you. Thank you for having me.

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