Hamilton Souther | Plant Medicine: The Dark & The Light | Wellness Force #Podcast

You, as a practitioner of the plant medicine, have to be trained to be able to diagnose somebody, look at them, understand where they're coming from energetically. You have to be able to then literally straighten out all of the problems that they have energetically in that multi D field that you talked about. And that in the visionary field looks, you know, just incredible, just unbelievable. It's. It looks like to me like an exploding rainbow with all of life inside it. And you have to know how to navigate all of that and ultimately have the person come out the other side of their ceremonies. Having had healing and that you can see that the affliction is no longer there. You can now diagnose them as having had a healing transformation. The darkness is the opposite of that. So the darkness is a form of manipulation and a form of distortion that is coming from a really twisted kind of intention where there's power games and manipulations that are taking place to literally do the opposite of healing somebody.

Hamilton, we've been planning this for over a year. Welcome to Wellness Forest, finally. Thanks for being here.

Well, thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here with Wellness Force and I look forward to this conversation. It has been a long time in the making.

It has been multiple phone calls, lots of emails, and the topic at hand is the yin yang, the dark light. Not just plant medicine, but also just being a human being. How do we navigate this really intense world at times on our unique hero's journey? Man. So you've got quite the one yourself, which we're going to get into. But if people don't know you just give us like a two, two or three sentence. Not your whole backstory because I want to dig into that, but give us like a two or three sentence of who is Hamilton Souther in the world right now? 2021. What does he represent? What does he stand for?

Oh, I stand for wellness and overall spiritual well being for everybody and health for the world. And really the idea of a better place for us all to live. True life improvement and also global improvement.

That's profoundly stated. And I've seen you quite a bit on the media, multiple podcast interviews where you've said some pretty intense things. You've been through some pretty intense ceremonies as well. And a lot of people look at like plant medicine as a healing tool. But what I really wanted to cover today, from the heart and also from your experience, is there is this beautiful part of medicine and there is this dark side, and you have a way with words that I really appreciate you Have a way of just getting down to the heart of the matter. Your experience with plant medicine started, I believe it was 2002. Right. That's when you originally were introduced to the medicine.

Yeah, the very first time I ever participated with plant medicine was 2001. And then in 2002, that's when I started apprenticing.

And so looking back on like 20 years, what would you say before we actually dig into the dark and the light? And we're also going to talk about Source Independent entertainment and Sizzle Media and your transition from like the plant world focus, which is always going to be a part of your life, but also to now giving people a centralized place where they can connect and consume conscious media. But dude, in the past 20 years, what have you seen change the most that has been most alarming and most shocking to you in the plant medicine world?

Wow, that's a big question. I think the biggest thing was the marketing and turning the plant medicine into a commodity. Commoditization of plant medicine was not the origin of my story, nor people who were exploring this 20 years ago. And then the second biggest part of it is the politicization now. So making it all about politics, which it is fundamentally not about. So this industry that formed all around it and the marketing all around it was fundamentally just not in existence. When I first came to the Amazon.

There'S a huge part of, I guess you could say capitalism that's like asking to be changed. We're going through a personal, collective and also a conscious revolution of what trading energy and capitalism really is. And I feel like what's going on is we're seeing all of these luxury retreats pop up, but some of them are doing things from an integrity based lens. Some of them just want to make some money. Right. And so what have you seen as far as your experience in the world, really traveling the world, man, Right now you're talking to us from across the world in Peru. But in Peru, they do things much differently than they do in America, or for that matter, Costa Rica. Really, this medicine came from the jungle, it came from Peru. Can you contrast the pure essence of the medicine, the pure heart and soul and loving light of the medicine, which really started right where you are versus what you're seeing on the west coast and what you're seeing in North America?

Sure. The traditional uses were truly a medicine where there were, you know, tribal people who utilized the forest as a pharmacopoeia. Literally, in the acres of land around where you lived, you could find thousands of medicinal plants. And the sacred keepers of knowledge had the use of medicinal plants really at their fingertips and over obviously thousands and thousands of years, because these ceremonies have been going on truly for thousands of years. You know, the locals learned how to utilize different kinds of plant medicines for every kind of healing that they needed as their own system of medicine. So very much like you have Chinese medicine that uses a bunch of herbs, you have also Amazonian medicine that also uses hundreds of medicinal plants. And the visionary medicinal plants, they ultimately, in the last 20 years have gotten the most fame because of the really impactful experience that they can provide. What I was most shocked by when I first came to the Amazon was that the local people did not have in their vocabulary word for depression or anxiety. And I was just floored because when I had been growing up, depression and anxiety was everywhere. And, you know, new antidepressants were coming out all the time. And there was all this talk about people being depressed. And so to find a whole community of people that didn't even have that word was shocking. And then I learned that they had medicines specifically for mental health that came from the jungle. And fundamentally they were medicines. It wasn't an explorative experience. It wasn't to go find the essence of the cosmos like people treat the plant medicines. Now, there wasn't a greater mythological story that has been woven by the Western cultures about it. It truly was a medicine to heal yourself and to have this really incredible purge and cleanse. And that's fundamentally what it was about.

And the core difference now that we're seeing is, like you had mentioned, there's a commoditization. And I think. And Tim Ferriss just wrote a blog recently. I don't know if you're. You read it, but he talked about how, like the peyote and the ayahuasca and all these different medicines, they're running short. And not just in the localities of the jungle, but across the planet. Like, they're being used so much at Blue Morpho, which is your center that you, I believe, co founded or founded. Right?

Yeah, I founded it.

You founded it. When you started, did you ever consider or did you ever. Did the medicine ever show you? Did you ever even have a premonition of what was to come as far as that commoditization?

The truth is no. I mean, we saw that a lot of people would be interested in this kind of healing, but we did not expect there to be sort of a global cultural interest in these ceremonies at all. When I started, this was so off the Beaten path. It was beyond ecotourism. It was, you know, truly the essence of shamanism itself and people interested in real living mysticism. And, you know, there was almost nothing written about it. There was almost nothing spoken about it. People had never heard of it. They had literally no idea what I was involved in ultimately until global publications came out about that. And, you know, what had happened to me was that I had this incredible calling to come and have these experiences. It was a true spiritual awakening. And I ended up following the visions that I was having. I ended up in the Amazon and in this ayahuasca ceremony. And it just floored me. It was the most intense, horrific, terrifying, and then beautiful, amazing experience of my life. And I knew that we couldn't put me back in my own mental box after that ceremony. There was no way to sort of confine it all again after what I had through. But I got called to learn that medicine as a formal apprenticeship, and it was fundamentally never presented that the plants alone were the medicine, but that you needed to have trained authentic medicine practitioners. And they had to go through these incredible rigors of apprenticeship that were life threatening and unbelievably difficult to train you to be a keeper. And a sharer of that medicine. And training would last anywhere from, you know, five years to 15 years was considered pretty typical.

Five to 15 years, which is different than somebody pouring medicine after six months in Topanga Canyon playing something from Spotify. This is what I'm seeing so much. And I'm not here. Look, I'm here to bring solution and light. I consider you to be a voice of reason, a voice of truth. You're almost like a lighthouse on the edge of a cliff, letting people know what's real and what's not. I mean, obviously you've been on multiple podcasts all over the world, sharing with people like, hey, this is actually the truth about the safety, the precautions, the integration, pre Perry and Post. So right now, if you were to take a deep breath, Hamilton, and view life 30,000ft, which probably you've done many times in ceremonies, you've probably seen the world, you've probably been in other galaxies. But if you were to pull way back, man, and just look at us right here, 30,000ft in the air, what would you say? The entire plant medicine world, the entire, I guess you could say plant medicine industry needs to hear?

Well, they, they need to hear responsibility more than anything. They need to understand the true power of what they're engaging with, and they need to understand that these plant medicines are not Just medicines. If you administer them, it's not a glorified role of a bartender. You're not just a glorified person, you know, prescribing a tea to somebody or. Or just some kind of, you know, plant elixir. These are unbelievably serious and unbelievably profound plants that have literally shaped human consciousness over the last 50,000 years. And there's a fundamental reason in the Amazon that the true practitioners of the lineages of medicine go through 10 to 15, 20 years of apprenticeship. Just a quick short story to give an idea of this. I got my first compliment from the teachers teaching me when I had made it through my first year. And then they told me, and at that point I had participated in just under 70 ceremonies. And that was the first time they said anything nice to me. And then they told me they would look at me again when I had.

A thousand ceremonies of how many do you have now?

I lost count after 1200, so somewhere around 15, 1500, 1600 ceremonies.

Okay, I digress. I'm just curious.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Specifically with ayahuasca, but in total, probably 4,000 plant medicine ceremonies of different kinds of plant medicine.

Well, thank you for sharing your wisdom because what I've always felt from you in our private calls and right here on this podcast, there is a groundedness to you. Yes, you know how to guide and navigate people in 4 and 5D. You've done it 4,000 times now. But what I really appreciate about you and your work and just you as a human being is your feet are firmly planted here on the ground. I don't hear you talking in radical esoteric speak. I find that your business success you've had both in media and crypto and all the ways that you've been able to navigate this human experience, it is a breath of fresh air, man. It is a breath of fresh air to all of us. To get some sense making into the plant medicine world. We had so many questions from the community. I put out a call that you were going to be on the show and you probably have 50 people that asked you questions. But the key one, the key question that was like a through line for everyone that we asked was what is the key difference between the dark magic, the sorcery aspect versus the divine light, you know, God and spirit guiding the medicine? There is a black and a white there. Can you paint a picture of what that actually is?

Yeah, I mean, I think the easiest way is you take that picture behind you, which shows the chakras and we call it the inner rainbow or the shun go. And is your intention to straighten that for somebody and open that and know how to guide that and remove any kinds of energies that are fundamentally not healthy and not of the person's well being? And can you bring mental clarity to the upper chakras? Can you again connect them to earth and connect them to the greater multi d that you mentioned? And can you make that body and that being shine? And can you make the soul shine and the spirit shine and represent really true medicine? And when you can, you learn how to guide that in ceremony. And you don't leave it just up to the plants. You guide it truly from the beginning to the end of the ceremony through ikaros and through intention. And you know how to do that. You've, you've been fundamentally trained in that art and in that skill. And you know, the dark arts is the exact opposite. The idea is to take that beautiful rainbow and distort it and twist it to fundamental mythologies that are about the nature of power and persuasion and the taking from somebody and trying to manipulate somebody. And so the difference is really easy to understand. One is where the true essence of everybody involved are trying to utilize the substances for the purpose of healing and real medicine and a practice that really does create a change of state from where somebody has an affliction so the affliction can be truly diagnosed and just like in Western medicine. And you can then utilize the plant medicine as a form of healing. And you have to know how to do that like a surgeon knows how to go in and do a knee replacement. You, as a practitioner of the plant medicine have to be trained to be able to diagnose somebody, look at them, understand where they're coming from energetically. You have to be able to then literally straighten out all of the problems that they have energetically in that multi d field that you talked about about. And that in the visionary field looks, you know, just incredible, just unbelievable. It's, it looks like to me like an exploding rainbow with all of life inside it. And you have to know how to navigate all of that and ultimately have the person come out the other side of their ceremonies having had healing and that you can see that the affliction is no longer there. You can now diagnose them as having had a healing transformation. The darkness is the opposite of that. So the darkness is a form of manipulation and a form of distortion that is coming from a really twisted kind of intention where there's power games and manipulations that are taking place to literally do the opposite of healing somebody. It's like sleight of hand magic. It's filling them with illusion. It's taking somebody who's already in a state of need and putting them into an even greater state of need.

Yes.

And there's all different kinds of means to do that, and it's taking advantage of people in a way that is, you know, really frowned upon by the people who practice medicine. But it is understood that there is really a widespread expression of these expressions of sorcery and magics in the world, especially related to these plants, and that you need to be very careful about the practitioners that you interact with because of the power and influence that they can hold, especially when somebody's in a vulnerable state.

Yeah. There's this phrase in the Bible that I just thought of, and I'm not a religious man, but it was profound, and it was to those who have nothing more will be taken, and to those who have everything more will be given. And I think the same thing applies when it comes to predatory practices in plant medicine, because when people are, like you said, in their deepest need, when they're on their knee and they truly want to heal, but they're so blinded by their own pain that their internal faculty of being able to decipher if they can trust someone, if they can intuitively feel someone's either dark or light energy. That's the part that I want to dig in with you today on. Because if affliction can be diagnosed and a skilled practitioner who spent 5, 10, 15 years training from his or her teachers in the jungle, that is a very devoted path that requires incredible sacrifice and dedication. Yet in ceremony, how does one go into ceremony and know that that person is pure versus they might look and breathe and smell exactly like somebody who's been doing it for six months and has that dark hand that they want to pass over everyone, how do we do this? Is there a guide? Is there a template? Is there something to look for or feel, to decipher in ceremony, if somebody's darker light?

I think there is. I. I think you fundamentally are the litmus test of the other people that are there are the practitioners. And so I've always said the very first thing is that the eyes are the window to the soul. And so look at somebody in their eyes and see the practitioner and really look at them, ask them questions, see if they're open with you, see if they speak in a way that makes sense, sense to you, if they're clear about what they're talking about if they start telling you a whole bunch of stories that they're expecting you to buy into and believe right there, that's the first really big, you know, question.

What kind of stories? What kind of stories?

Oh, stories about how the. The Rainbow Serpent is supposed to come and eat you. But why? That doesn't make any sense to me. How is that healing? You know, that all you have to do is surrender yourself to them. Why? Like, it should be opposite. They should be surrendering themselves as the practitioner to you. They're there in service to you. You know, saying that it's totally normal to have these really horrific things happen and not have a resolution come to them. Like, oh, yeah, just kind of like just brushing off the dark or the really intense experiences that people can have associated with it. And why. I've always thought that you need to do as much research as you possibly can about a practitioner and really try to hear from as many people as you can, you know, the experiences that people have had, good and bad. Not everybody's going to have a good experience with, you know, over the history of a course of a shaman's life, right? So there's going to be criticisms of different kinds. But look at those, Understand those. Stay rational, you know, be grounded in the best of your ability when picking somebody to have these experiences with. And I think the real key is to understand how important the person is who is administering the ceremony. So just don't make the mistake of thinking, oh, it doesn't matter who's administering the ceremony because it's all the plant medicine. No, no, on the contrary, the people who are administering that ceremony are unbelievably important to the outcome that you're going to have. And so, you know, I think those are the easiest ways. And there's enough, you know, there's enough out there that. That it is possible to become educated now on this. And it's not a whim or a flight of fancy. This is a real medicine. It needs to be treated as a real medicine. It has been treated as a real medicine in the Amazon for thousands of years. No one, literally no one is allowed to touch ayahuasca that is not a trained practitioner in the Amazon. Like, they don't do it. What happens if they do?

What happens if they got caught using it and they're not properly trained?

Oh, no, it doesn't happen. Like, it just doesn't happen. They're not. It just literally doesn't happen. So it's, you know, now you'll see because of the tourism Industry people selling it on the streets, flyers being handed out, come to the ceremony, drop in here like it's just some kind of normal thing. But if you go deep into the jungle, into the small river towns and into the indigenous communities and you do not see that just the practitioners who've trained are the only ones who actually even have it. And they administer it in true healing ceremonies and it's something that is considered very sacred.

What would you do or what would you advise to somebody? I love, I love what you're sharing because I was not aware of that. I've heard stories and I've heard myths probably that you can bring us truth on that. Some people go into the Amazon and then they never come back. That's just obviously a fear tactic, right? Or does that actually happen.

Will never come back. Like what?

Like the dying ceremony or. There's a lot of fear mongering when it comes to medicine.

Oh, I mean, first of all, gosh, that's a really tough question. I mean, can people go to other parts of the world and ultimately die? The answer to that, unfortunately is yes. And each one of those cases requires an unbelievable amount of investigation to understand what's going on. Right. If you take ayahuasca specifically, there's at least 50 to 100 different substances that you should not be on and that make you a non candidate to ayahuasca. Not only that, there's at least another 50 to 100 pretty common illnesses that have to do with the heart that make you a non candidate and or blood pressure. There's also another whole series of whether you have familial predisposition, genetic predisposition to different kinds of mental illness that make it a non candidate as well. So first of all, you have to filter all of that out. Then you have to go in and you actually have to understand the toxicology of a person who quote, unquote, died from ceremony because, well, what did they ingest? No one knows. They just say, oh, they took this plant medicine, but it's literally a mixture of anywhere from 2 to 20 different kinds of plants. Yeah, there's a question as well. Were they, you know, taking tobacco? There's all of these other kinds of rituals surrounding tobacco, tobacco drinking, tobacco snorting, where they call it cleansing beforehand. Some people are allergic to that and don't know it, especially in those quantities because they think like, oh, well, it's like having a cigarette. It's not. It's like consuming five packs of cigarettes at the same time, like just that can poison somebody. And, and kill them.

Like the hopping or the rape?

Yeah, absolutely. And, and that. So, so there has to be an investigation and toxicology. You have to understand if it came from the ceremony itself or not. People do, you know, in the form of different kinds of darkness and bad practices do develop psychosis. And that is true, that's fundamentally true. People who are not capable of handling the experience mentally can develop a psychosis. And you can hear it from the most ungrounded, mythological sounding kind of a person. And then it can also be all the way to pathological, you know, clinical needing to have a psychiatrist intervene to, you know, reground that person utilizing antipsychotic drugs. There's a whole wide range of this. And then when you, when you go back then to the medicine, they always go back and say, oh, it was the plant medicine or it was, you know, this specific reason. And they don't take into account literally the hundreds of variables that go into why somebody could have that kind of an experience. I think fear mongering around this is the exact opposite of what somebody should do. There's literally no reason to be afraid. Like literally none. But there's every reason to be educated.

Oh, that's beautiful. Every reason to be. Every reason to be cautious. From the educated place you mentioned psychosis. I want to go into that because there is so many people, there are so many people that have been healed from plant medicine. I mean, I've seen it, you know, I, I had 11 ceremonies, 12 ceremonies. And I had profound experiences that changed me forever. But also, Hamilton, I got my ass kicked. I got completely crushed two years ago where I actually did take on an entity. I had to be cleared from a mentor. Paul, check. I've talked about it on the show. He cleared it for me. He showed me how to clear it. If you would have told me that entities even existed three, four years ago, I would have said that's just total woo woo bs. But they are real, my friend. Like, they are real. I know you know this because this is your world, but can you contrast entities, entities that come in? This is like something I see all the time with people that have used ayahuasca that are not educated like you say. And I know at Blue Morpho you guys have an extremely high standard of how you run that business. And when ceremonies do take place again, that's a safe place for people to go. But you know, despite this glamorous reputation, it's not all light and love. You know, entities can enter when there's space for them. To live. And I'm curious if you can contrast entities and entities coming in versus psychosis.

Yeah, absolutely. Entities fundamentally live within the field of the collective consciousness. And I know people usually live in their own little mind bubble. And you know, they don't understand that there's this overlap, this really incredible, like Venn diagram, like the flower of life of everybody's consciousness. And fundamentally, when you go into these really open, expanded states of consciousness and plant medicine, there's kind of two openings that happen. One, you open up to the room and the people that are in the room and the practitioners, et cetera, that we've talked about. You also open up to the great mythological and evolutionary expression of the collective consciousness. And within that, all you have to do is go look at religious stories and spiritual stories, Eastern philosophical stories, and you're going to read about literally tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of different kinds of entities that exist. And fundamentally it's part of our collective mythology. And you know, the modern world doesn't really relate to it very much. They don't. They have stories about it and ghost stories and things like that, but that's kind of it. You know, maybe somebody says that they have a really strong connection to a loved one that has passed on, you know, like a grandparent or a great grandparent or something like that. And they say like they feel them or they talk about having a guardian angel. So they kind of bring in a Judeo Christian kind of vibe of a, you know, feeling like there's guardian angels. You hear about that and then, you know, like you. I didn't believe in any of this at all until I started to experience it. And then once you experience it, it's just like, oh, my gosh, inside this collective consciousness, there's, there's more. There are more entities than there are humans doubting the entities. There are more kinds of entities than there are humans doubting the entities. One of the core roles of the shaman is to understand who are the different entities and to make sure they do not come into your body like that happened to you. So I hear that and I just hear like malpractice. That is just fundamental malpractice. Like there never should be a situation that an entity enters the body in a ceremony. On the contrary, entities are supposed to be removed from people that are causing harm and illness, and other beings are brought in to fundamentally practice the medicine. And this is something that is just truly mind blowing. In the Amazon, the plant spirit medicine is considered to be governed by these groups of entities that come from the plants and come from what they call the astral, which in science they call outer space. So they literally believe that there are these light beings that come from the plants, from the animals, from nature. And they are called the doctors. They're also called genios, which means the genies, or they're called los medicos, which is another way of saying doctors. And then they have a dialect name, Sincharunas, Ayarunas, etc. And there is a whole hierarchy of them. There's a pantheon of them, very much like Hinduism has a pantheon of demigods. And they are all known, literally all known by all of the practitioners across the entirety of the Amazon from the different plants that they work with. And they are considered to be the doctors that come to perform the healings. And what they do is they literally remove entities and. Or objects and things from people's bodies, and they replace it with what they call medicine. And so here, they don't even call the ayahuasca medicine. They call it ayahuasca or the purge lapurga. They don't consider it to be a medicine because it's used for medicinal purposes as well as for other kinds of purposes. So when they're talking about the medicine, they're talking about the frequencies of energies, the spirits, and the entities found within the states of consciousness of ayahuasca. So that's a. That's a big statement. It's. So let's break it down. They're talking about the frequencies of energies. They're talking about the vibrations of energies in your consciousness, okay, that are overlapping with this whole mythological world where there's good and bad and there's, like, light and evil within that field of consciousness. And there is a separation taking place of the dark entities from the light entities and the dark entities being removed from you and from the ceremony. So a great example of this is early on, Sarca 2005, we had a PhD scientist at the lodge just comes out of the first ceremony and says, this is all BS, 100% BS. I said to them, I said, I was telling the stories about the entities. I'm telling stories about how we remove them and how they go up through a vortex up out of the top of the roof of the ceremony house so that they fundamentally do not go into anybody else. So there's, like, layers and layers of protections about how to control entities in an ayahuasca ceremony. So they do not go from one person to another or come into the ceremony from any potential source that you could ever Imagine so I actually tell the guest, don't participate tonight. Just stay outside, have a night in the forest yourself. Just look at the ceremony house while we're in the ceremony and let's talk the next day. So we do the ceremony and the next day her eyes are this big, like this, this big. Bigger than from. From participating in the ceremony. And she says, I am not kidding. You guys were singing the Icaros. And I'm looking up at the moonlight and the sun stars and there is a cyclone of dark energy and entities leaving the ceremony house. And I was stone cold sober. And I'm a scientist and I saw that with my eyes open. And that's fundamentally what's necessary. That's just one of the techniques, but that is fundamentally what's necessary to protect a ceremony from these kinds of negative entities. And people ask where they ultimately come from. And that's why I started with the collective consciousness. No one knows the true origin of consciousness. It is a true mystery. And no one knows what's all packed into consciousness yet it's still an exploration. It's part of mysticism. Science is just starting to tap on the door of consciousness as something that can actually be studied. The technology is just getting sophisticated enough now to start to be able to wrap our heads around it in a more logical way. And, you know, we used to just study it via the direct experience itself. So we would have ceremony and go in as deep as we possibly could and, you know, try to get as much information and knowledge from those experiences. And the people that I worked with when I learned, always taught the importance of the protection and the importance of the safety. The importance of how together we were a collective safety net for each other. The importance of the protection of the. The guests in the ceremony or the patients. The. The importance of how you first learn to make sure that that space is safe and then within that safe space, how you then learn to heal.

Wow. I mean, you just dropped so much truth. If you are considering going to ceremony, rewind that last seven minutes, watch it again. Because the way that you articulated that, it really. I don't care how old you are, what level of consciousness you have, if you're a man, woman, however you identify in the world, the key teachings that you just gave us, so huge, so powerful. I wish I would have known that actually before I went down to Costa Rica. Now when I was there, I was told a phrase, and I'm curious how you feel about this. I was told the phrase, don't think, don't just drink. Three or four times over and over and over again. Don't think, just drink. Just continue to drink as much medicine as you can and don't think about it. Basically get, quote, drunk on the medicine. What are your thoughts on this? If you had a shaman or a practitioner or somebody encouraging you to drink as much medicine as you possibly could without regard to how you're feeling or what you're thinking, how would you advise them?

Fundamentally, I would ask them why they were thinking that way and what was driving the nature of that understanding. You know, when I first got to the Amazon, the dose was considered a dose. There was one dose of ayahuasca, one drink and one. Yeah. And it was way more than anybody needed in their right mind. Okay. So it was a massive amount. It was, it was truly a massive amount. And the idea was that you fully saturated yourself and then you purged and purged and purged. And the ayahuasca would come out when the body couldn't hold anymore. So they would take you to 100%. Right. So they would take you to just 100%. And then at that point you would deal with it. And then I learned that there was something very different between the native Amazonian mind and the westerners mind. And the native Amazonian mind was really, really strong and really, really powerful when it came to withstanding the experience of plant medicines and especially ayahuasca. And westerners were the exact opposite. They were unbelievably susceptible to wild flights of fancy and complete lunacy that could come from those kinds of experiences. And so, like, you'd have the locals and they would have had just a time that looked like 10 times worse than the westerner in the same ceremony. And the next day you would ask the local, like, how was it last night? And he'd be like, buena limpieza. Good cleanse. That's it. Biste algo. Did you see something? C. B? Yeah, I saw. That's it. The end of it. You would give a teaspoon to the right westerner and they would come out the next day and be like, you wouldn't believe what I saw. And then they would give you an encyclopedia of talking about just every single nuance, subtlety, brain thought, idea, twist in vision, little color, this, that it wouldn't matter. It was just mind boggling the difference. And so in our case, and what we learned is that you had to have really the right dose for each individual person. When you started to work with all of these people from all of these different cultures around the world. And you couldn't have just such a blanket statement. So it couldn't just be drink this much anymore, you know, like 4 or 5 ounces of really strong ayahuasca, which was like, when I first showed up to the Amazon, it was now, hey, you know, this person needs literally a teaspoon and a drop, and that person literally needs a teaspoon, and that other person literally needs a tablespoon, and the other person needs two tablespoons. And you had to dose really specifically to the capacities of each individual and what was going to be happening collectively with the ceremony. And it was much more sophisticated and required a lot more precision. And so that's why if I heard somebody say that, like you're describing, I would just ask them where they're coming from, and I would want to know what their. What their mindset is, and I would see whether their mindset fit with where I was coming from and if that seemed to resonate and vibe. And I have met some people that truly are not very sensitive to the plant medicines. And so they come away with these idea of taking hero doses. And I personally think that maybe that works for 0.0001% of the population. I've heard it from psychonaut communities too, where they're like, take a hero dose. And I'm like, why? Who's a hero? I'm not a hero. No one's a hero. Heroes are in movies. These, like, hero is mythology. This is a living human being here that is flesh and blood. And everybody's chemistry is different, and everybody's brain chemistry is different. And, you know, too high is really too high.

Yeah. Well, then it begs this question for the size of the ceremony. Like, and maybe you can share how you run at Blue Morpho, the size, how many people are in the ceremony? And to the degree that that ayahuascaro is skilled, is it ayahuascaro that they're called or is it a maestro? What is the difference between the two in a ceremony?

Well, you have your maestro ayahuascaro. An ayahuascaro is a shaman that uses ayahuasca. A palero is a shaman that works with trees. A San Angero is a shaman that works with sanango. A toero is a shaman that works with toe. A mapachero is a shaman that works with mapacho. A camilongero is a shaman that works with camolonga. Kind of get the vibe.

Right?

They're named by the plant that they work with.

Right.

You know, if you're an ayahuasca. That means you have decided for yourself that you work with ayahuasca. And a maestro is considered either a teacher. So literally, that's what the word maestro means. It means teacher, or it means you've reached a certain level of practice where you no longer need to be in the presence of a master or a teacher. So you finished apprenticeship and then they give you the title maestro.

So in that space, how does one as a maestro or an ayahuascaro, decide who is going to get what dose and who is going to get a plus or a minus? I mean, especially when you look at groups that are exceeding 20 people. Like, the place that I went, there was like almost 100 people one night. And I thought to myself, how could this possibly be a safe space if there's 100 people here? Like, what are your thoughts on that as a. As a poorer of the medicine, as a shaman yourself? How do you decipher that?

Well, I fundamentally say if you don't know, like, if you just don't absolutely know, like, truthfully know, you shouldn't be pouring, like, period. Like, that's how. That's the difference. Like, if you don't know, looking at that person already what they need, you should not be in the chair. You should not have that responsibility yet.

You should.

You're not a maestro. You're literally not. You've not studied enough, you haven't done enough dietas, you haven't practiced enough. And to hold a ceremony of 30 people, 40 people, 50 people, 100 people together, you have to be a really, really serious practitioner because you're dealing with, again, 100 individual souls that are all in different experiences at the same time. And so if you don't know how to really use that multi d that you talked about, to be able to hold it all together, you'll have no idea what could happen in that ceremony. And there's this big division. I mean, there's like a huge division between a group of people that think that you just give them the plant medicine and the plant medicine does it all. So they've offloaded all the responsibility to the substance. And then there's a very, very small group of people that I'm part of that says, no, there's a trinity going on here. And the trinity is the plant medicine, the practitioners, and the knowledge that the practitioner is actually using, which comes in many different forms in ceremony. And so I would fundamentally say if you don't have a relationship with the head medicine, spirits of ayahuasca, and you don't already know what that person needs to drink. You have fundamentally not studied enough to be in that position. And now if you're really going to hold a ceremony and handle that for real, I can break it down like how we would do it, please. So you have a hundred people. You now need to build an energetic channel to a hundred people. And you have to be able to hold it like 100 telephone lines or 100 cell phone lines open at the same time. You need to fill that line with a bunch of spirits like we talked about, that are community of channels that can tell you in real time who needs what at the same time. You need at least the ability to work with 300 to 500,000 different kinds of trees at the same time. Not individual species, but the trees themselves. To be able to ground the ceremony. You need to be able to hold an entire space that's unbroken of a kind of Mother Earth energy that keeps everybody grounded literally the entirety of the time. And then you have to be able to work with somewhere between 2 million to 20 million different kinds of medicinal spirits, all at the same time in that field. And to be able to do that, you have to learn in your mind to be able to interweave them into that kaleidoscopic, interdimensional, visionary field that people talk about. And you have to be able to literally play that kaleidoscope through the Icaros for everybody in real time from start to finish of the ceremony. And I tell people at a Blue Morpho ceremony, they're going to. If they keep their eyes open and really look and see, they're going to. I see literally billions of spirits that are being utilized to do that. And I'm not kidding when I use the word billions. You call them in the billions. To be able to hold all of that together. And it takes an unbelievable amount of training.

Is there?

But that's like just the basics.

Yeah, that's just the basics. But you just dropped like the huge universal microphone. Because holding that many lines of telephone cord and that many trees and that many spirits and having the wherewithal and plus the identification of when they're dark and when they're light. I mean, we're talking about something that is so profound that even if people tried to describe it, they wouldn't be able to describe it, Hamilton, Unless they experientially went through it. Would you say that's true?

I think it's completely true. We live in a fixation in 3D where we're blinded by the reflection of light. And people who go into these ceremonies break that fixation. And it's not just the screen anymore, you know, and the optic nerves in the brain in that relationship. And when that happens, you know, this whole light matrix shows up. Science has already proven that, you know, to have a normal conversation, you filter out trillions of stimuli a second, not bring them in. When you go into plant medicine, you start bringing in that stimuli. And so that idea of billions to trillions of things going on in this incredible field of energy that we live in, that's our material physics, is, you know, so overwhelming at first. I mean, you hear it, it's like radiation everywhere. You feel it, it goes through you, you, you. It's like, like a water drop would sound like, you know, the biggest boom at a concert going through your body. It's you. You literally become one with nature in, through and all around you. There's no separation whatsoever. Until you experience that yourself. It's just words.

I think anyone that's like logical minded, only that's not spiritual, they might have left the room. But when you're with us, I know you're with us right now because you guys are connected to what Hamilton's saying. We had actually a question from a woman named Heather and she said for over 16 months after my last ceremony, I've had haunting thoughts, almost OCD in some cases. I've went to multiple therapists without any reprieve. Can you speak to that a little bit? Just as we move the conversation towards solution and towards the healing power of medicine, as we wrap up the dark side of the medicine, like what, what is something that she could do if she's experiencing that?

I think when, you know, you get into these kinds of dark thought loops and stuff like that that can come from these experiences. You have to integrate and process the fear. And fundamentally what you need to do is do a lot of grounding meditations. And in those grounding meditations, pardon me, you need to really, really connect with the earth and really connect with grounding and understand that the brain is producing fear. And when the brain goes and produces the fear, we have to find a way to learn to calm that fear down. We can't externalize the fear, we can't blame the fear. We need to understand that the brain is now creating thought loops of fear and that there are ways to isolate, isolate and to straighten that out and to center that. And so you do that through grounding practices and teaching the brain really gently, really kindly to not create those fears. And to be courageous. So you call on all different kinds of energies to be able to help you do that. From the nature energies to the earth energies to, you know, whatever you connect with that is real for you. Source. I mean, typically I talk about source and I don't think source is a debatable principle. Source is the origin of all of this. So source affects everybody, period, whether they believe or not. It's not a religious concept, it's not a scientific concept. It's what gives origin to all religious and scientific concepts.

Yes, I've heard it described almost as omnipresence. Omnipresent. Both nowhere and everywhere at the same time.

Yeah, exactly. So connect with source, connect with Earth and deal with the fear and understand that what's happening in the thought, thought loops can be broken through really gentle affirmations and really working with the heart and bringing a brain and heart alignment or coherence that just needs to be created. And that'll solve that. Mental looping.

Yeah. People that deal with ocd, you mentioned there's a lot of resources and we'll link people to Blue Morpho, but there is a lot of pre existing conditions. Like if somebody, for example, has a proclivity towards being psychotic or maybe their mother had bipolar. You know, I wonder within myself, it's vulnerable for me to share this, but it, I'll go there. My mom has bipolar and my dad took medicine, my brother took medicines. They no longer do anymore. But I'm the only one in my family that didn't take SSRIs. And so I wonder, was something activated from an epigenetic standpoint when I was in that ceremony?

Could be. It very well could be. And I question there the filtering of that out. And it's very difficult. And so I don't place blame on that, but it's very, very difficult. And I think it's really important that if you have that in your family history, and you know that especially as you're in the 30s, the ages of 30s to 40s, and then in that age bracket too, for some reason, and I don't know why, it's typically past the 20s and before the 40s, these kinds of experiences can kick off and trigger those propensities that people have. And we warn everybody about that to please look into their family history. And if there is any kind of family history, we check it out. We typically have people get doctors, there's literally, you know, letters that says that they are a safe candidate to be able to participate. And you also need to take unbelievably small doses. Like, it's. You cannot use larger doses of.

I think that's what happened, man. I think I took. There was this. For this medicine called Yahe medicine, and it was different than the Ayahuasca. And the Yahe just took me to a place where I literally just had my reality shattered. And it took me almost two years. You know, I'm here with you now, like, everything's okay, and everything actually was always okay. And I look back on the path, and I don't hold resentment because I know that it happened for my greatest good. Otherwise it wouldn't have happened. That's why it happened. So I look back on that experience, but I'll tell you, like, I would not wish that on fucking anyone to go through the amount of healing, the amount of reintegration, the amount of really reality scrubbing that I had to do. And, you know, my personal experience with the vine is over unless I feel called later on in my life. And so it's something that I want to just be responsible about, you know, with this audience who we've been together here for so long now, since 2015, is when we started the podcast. Like, I owe it to everyone to just speak my truth. This is a powerful medicine of which we are just even beginning to understand. The stuff that Hamilton has touched upon is really just the beginning. So going to the bluemorpho website, which is Bluemorpho World, right? That's your website?

Yeah. Bluemorphoretreats World.

Bluemorphoretreats World. That's the beginning. As we look at this conversation, is there something that came up for you when we talked about the dark side that you just want everyone to know? Because, look, there is an incredible, beautiful, light side that I want to cover, too. I just want to be responsible and loving to people that your experience is yours and mine is mine. But there is some clues and some caveats that everyone should know. Did anything come through that you really want to talk about or speak to? When we look at the dark side.

Of the plant medicine, just know that it exists. You've heard, everyone now is given enough warnings, and so just, you know, leave naivete at home and, you know, open your eyes to this. So understand that it's out there, and I think that's the most important thing. So then you can make sure that you go to a place that has that covered. I had someone mention a car.

I had someone mention to me, ayahuasca is the door to one's ego. And I thought wow. You better be prepared for what's behind the door. You know, if. If you haven't ever danced with your ego, if you haven't had any experiences where you're actually seeing your shadow, like Jung talks about, right? Like, knowing and integrating and loving the shadow. I had someone on the show once, and his name is Gay Hendricks, and his wife Katie and Gay Hendricks, they run an integration institute for emotional intelligence. And he told me, josh, you know, when fear comes up and these things happen, you have to learn how to love the fear. And I was like, what the hell are you talking about? This is five years ago, before any ceremonies at all. And I understand now. It's so beautiful in this moment with you. Like, actually brings up emotion in me just to share this with you. Like, I understand now what loving your fear really means. Loving your fear isn't trying to kick the fear's ass so it goes away. Being angry at the fear, trying to move it out of your psyche, it's turning towards it and asking it, what are you here to teach me? What are you here to teach me? I'm willing to learn. And then once I go through a dialogue with that fear, I understand, you know, if you're. If you're coming into my inner sanctum and you're wanting to haunt or you're wanting to circle around me or do something that's dark, by the power of God invested in me, I ask you to leave and I send you love for the journey. So it's not about being angry at these entities. It's not about trying to beat them up. It's about learning how to love them. And I'm curious how you feel about that. Literally turning towards the spirits and saying, what are you here to teach me? Because I love you just like I love myself.

I think that that's the right attitude to take. Fundamentally, over the years, we decided that the best spiritual space to be in was a sanctuary for all of the spirits and all of the energies, light and dark. Because if you're constantly getting beaten, how are you going to respond? And so if we can't bring balance to our own psyche, how are we ever going to ultimately deal with this great division inside our psych, our consciousness that's polarizing the totality of the planet right now? So, you know, we. I think that that's an incredible approach to ultimately unifying your own experience of duality and your own psyche and then being able to share that and that wisdom with other people is a tremendous gift.

I'm so curious, and I Promise we're going to get to the light. Have you had an experience personally where you had to go through the dark night of the soul or maybe dark years of the soul to look back and go, ah, that's why it happened for me. That's why it happened for me, because I was meant to learn this key lesson. Has something like that come through for you? Maybe multiple times, but what's a big one that's come through for you there?

For sure, for sure. God, there's, there's a. When you go through training, that's what you go through. That's literally what you go through over and over and over again is confronting yourself and confronting your own delusions and your own misconceptions and your own false beliefs and then your own fears, your own paranoias, etc. The, the biggest for me, I think, came after 14 years of practice.

Wow.

And yeah, after 14 years of practice, I got a very clear message that everything that I had learned up until that point was only to get me to that point and my entire knowledge base had to be released and then literally rewritten from the ground up. So 14 years in thousand plus ceremonies in. I was literally told, just like on the very first ceremony, that was enough to get here. And now we have to go through and filter out everything that isn't serving anymore from those 14 years of practice and learning.

What did you.

That was the biggest. Oh, just thousands and thousands of delusions and misconceptions and misunderstandings and just things where you, you know, you think about, you know, one technique over another. You, you have certain worldviews different, just everything. I mean, it's, it's, it goes from like the most finite, microscopic, you know, concepts to sort of the greatest concepts around source and dimensionality and spirit and what it all is.

And did it knock you on your ass in some way or how long did it take you to recover from that? And you're a trained shaman.

I actually went into a ceremony to deal with it and it was turned into the longest single ceremony of my life. So that ceremony lasted over 700 days. Wow.

So that integration process of a 700 day ceremony brought you here to this moment with us. Well, welcome. Thank you. Welcome.

I started a ceremony to deal with it. I literally said, I'm not stopping the ceremony until we've dealt with all of it. And it took over 700 days.

What did you, you know, I know I'm cornering you a bit here, but why not? We're, we're both humans on the planet with Finite lifespans. Can you share with us what came up at the end of the 700 days? Like, was there one heart based message that came through?

I ultimately, yeah, the knowledge was at the end of that cohesive and fundamentally that we are so much more than what we know ourselves to be and what we think we are. And that the totality of our being is really an integration with the universe itself and that there is no separation of any kind. And all dualistic philosophies of separation of any kind are fundamentally flawed in their, you know, origin.

700 days of wisdom. And. And that's what came through. That's amazing. It reminds me of this passage and I've quoted it and I actually, I learned it from Alan Watts and. And he learned it from his teacher. And it's a river and I believe it's in Europe and it's the Logos. And in the religious text it's meant that everyone goes and drinks from the river Forgetfulness so that they can spend this human experience remembering who they are. It seems like in that moment you came clear on who you really are.

Well, as clear as I am now, I guess, you know, I never think there's an end to this. I live in a place where I'm still fundamentally floored by the fact that it exists at all. And I stay truly humbled to existence and honor the experience of consciousness. And so, you know, I think in terms of consciousness itself, we're all infants learning what it is to be soul and learning what it is to be part of earth and ultimately part of the cosmos. And that it's just such a humbling experience to be in this shape and form and also to be conscious at the same time. And it's also such an incredible miracle. And the other thing I think that I came away with from the 700 days was that every single person's a miracle. There's a divine miracle in the nature of our own existence itself. And that that miracle proves itself and that our own existence proves the nature of the miraculous. And that if we take that understanding, we take it to the heart, then everything about life is miraculous. And we have miraculous capacities to transform our own lives and the nature of our collective experience.

Thank you for sharing, man. It's been incredible just to hear you share that one segment of a 700 day ceremony and the light side of this medicine is that it can produce realizations like this. Now granted, your life path has taken you here since 2001. For somebody who is wanting to begin this kind of a process, bluemorphoretreats world. What else has come up for you in the facilitation and the learning of this medicine? I know that you're also the founder of Source Independent Entertainment. You're heavily invested and educated in crypto and these currencies. And also you have Sizzle Media, which is a centralized place where people can connect and consume this conscious media. Like, a lot has come through for you in the past couple of years, plus two books that you're writing. So give us the light. Like, please share with us the yielding of fruit that's come from the light side of this medicine for you.

I think for me, it happened so young in my life and so early. It was at a really formative stage. And I think it was an unbelievable gift because the creation of Blue Morpho connected me to ultimately a community of people from over 120 countries and from all walks of life, all ages, all different kinds of experiences. And we got to spend a lot of time together in a really intimate, really amazing setting. And this community formed that shared with me, you know, such deep wisdom and understanding about what it was like for them to be alive. And I thought of shamanism as a kind of technology. I thought of it as a consciousness technology. I thought plant spirit medicine was technology, and it was just yet to be understood. And so when I ended up learning about, you know, what we call modern technology, like, you know, telecommunications and the Internet of things, etc. It was just fascinating to me, the logic that was used and the way people were ultimately creating this technology. And it happened that our community had people from early Internet in it, and it had people from early crypto in it, and it had people from, you know, quantum physicists and mathematicians and, you know, chemists and people from these incredible, incredible places of thought all over the world. And so it wasn't just a group of people dedicated to spiritual philosophies or some of the things that we talked about that are, like, more out there. It really was centered around this idea of how vast consciousness is and how we're using it to create technology and how incredible technology is. And so I ended up creating a think tank of a number of people from our community that represented different fields of study. And we all got together at different times, and we would just go really deep into how the world was changing and what were the new technologies to come. And I became very interested in blockchain technology and decentralized technologies simply because that's how I saw the forest. I saw the forest as the original decentralized community. And they were just. There's the forest, and it's all alive. And so now here are all these servers and computers and they're all interconnected. And so I saw these vines that intertwined the forest altogether and the roots and the mycelium network that connects it all. And I saw, well, here's all these satellites and server farms and people's individual devices. And it's all the same. It's just different linguistics, but ultimately the same. And so I saw this tremendous similarity between the way we thought in the shamanic realm and the way that people thought in the technology spaces. And then when that ultimately hit finance, that was really interesting to me fundamentally also because I thought of money as a technology. In terms of human history, there's been a much longer, much, much longer, like 99.9% more time that humans have existed without money existing than with humans existing with money existing.

Yeah.

And so. So that's a technology. And it had a purpose and a reason. And that purpose and reason has been evolving over time. And I saw it as such a fundamental core belief and real necessity to life itself. The way life had ultimately evolved around that concept of trade and around that concept of money. And like you said at the beginning, this idea of, you know, fair capitalism and fair exchange, etcetera, was, you know, very interesting to me. And these were thought leaders in that space. And at the same time, I saw that shamanism had an aspect to it that was art. It wasn't just a hard science. Some of the things that I've talked about today are really hard to wrap your head around. And if you're a pure rationalist and you haven't had the experiences, you're. You're not going to even know how to relate to them, you know, but that's an art form. And the way that I described handling a ceremony is an art. And you, you learn those arts, like a martial art is a. Is an art form, like jiu jitsu is an art form and karate is an art form. And then it also has these other purposes. Well, shamanism was an art form. And so I got really interested in art and artists and the experience of entertainers. And if you go to the global expression of that, you see that ultimately creativity is fundamentally undervalued to the global economy.

Absolutely.

That there is a drastic, drastic mismatch between the collective total value of creativity and the industries that have capitalized on creativity. And that mismatch was something that was really interesting to me, that I thought it would be incredible if there could be a way to try to impact and try to solve that question of how to bring more value to the creatives. Because I thought ultimately our global solutions would come through creativity. And all new technological breakthrough comes through creativity. All scientific discovery comes through creativity. All new works of art come through creativity. So not just art in the fine art sense, not just art in the sculpture sense, but also the art of invention and the art of what the expansion of consciousness is collectively for humanity. So I thought fundamentally there was just this big mismatch in value, and there was a way that we could combine blockchain technology and crypto technologies and ultimately utility token to revalue creativity and the creative expression for people. And the other thing that I saw was that social networks had formed for the first time in history, which were also unbelievably powerful. Powerful and very interesting. But there was no incentivization for that group in that collective to ultimately work together or be part of something together. It was just a service that gave everybody the same service, but there wasn't any kind of incentivization. And over time, there started to be a lot more complaints that people started to feel like maybe they were being more used than they were being given for participating in that.

Yeah, the people became the product, actually.

Correct, correct. And so I thought that, well, there has to be a way also not only to solve this issue for the artists, but also the people that consume the art. And that somehow there's gotta be a biosphere between everybody involved that could ultimately represent more value. And that's how Sizzle Media got created. So, you know, ultimately, it's a place where creatives can come and people who love creative content can come, and everybody in the community gets valued for being a community member through a utility token that as the community grows and as the creative talent grows and the people that enjoy the content grow, ultimately becomes expanding biosphere of value for all the participants. And that's currently what we're launching if.

People don't know what a token is. I just signed up myself, by the way, because I'm so inspired by you as a shaman, you as a man, your ability to navigate the financial, the crypto, the spiritual. I mean, it's pretty rare, man, the skills that you've put in your satchel. And you can go join right now, too. It's wellnessforce.com sizzle and you can get free access so you can start tapping into this creative potential that Hamilton is talking about. And we'll link wellnessforce.com sizzle in the show Notes as well, because I think about the call of, I call it the hero's journey. You mentioned you're not a hero. We're not heroes. I think that we are heroes at times in our lives. And I think everyone, in order to be a hero, they have to express themselves. They have to cultivate the courage to express themselves. And in our digital world right now, I think the big expression medium is what you and I are doing. It's having video conversations, it's creating art that moves people visually or in an audio way. And I think about like three, five years from now, what you can see with your eyes open or eyes closed. When it comes to sizzle, what do you see this becoming? How do you see this serving to be more loving in the world, to be more creative in the world?

Well, fundamentally what I see is that there is value in a community. And if the community values itself, that value can make every aspect of somebody's life better. And so if we can collectively share content that improves our life and we can share ideas and understanding and entertainment that improves our life and we can be valued for that sharing. Then we gained education and we gained experience, we gained knowledge, we gained know, how we gain friendship, camaraderie, shared experience, connection instead of separation with the people that we admire, that are our heroes, that, that are heroic for us. We learn from each other and we ultimately economically benefit. Which is a fundamental now fact and truth of the modern world. There's no denying the importance of economic well being and this ever growing, you know, pyramid of the wealthy getting wealthier and poverty growing. And so this is ultimately a way that hopefully people can find a way to generate income and generate value that makes their life easier as well.

So it's cool because the utility value of the token, the sizzle token increases as more people join, just like anything. I mean, Facebook was valuated, I'm sure in 2006 at maybe a few million dollars or something. But then in three more years people started to realize like, wow, everyone's congregating here. So wherever people congregate it, it really increases the value of tokens. So if anybody doesn't know what a token is, can you describe that and how exciting that is?

Really tokens are fundamentally, think in your mind like bingo. So think of like the bingo token and digitize it. And you know, it's, it's a, it's a digital symbol. And fundamentally these digital symbols, which is what a, a utility token is, it's a digital symbol, can have a value attached to it. So here you can have the token and there's, you know, all different kinds of, you know, numbers of these tokens on different projects, et cetera. But in the case of sizzle, there's 100 million tokens. So imagine there's 100 million of these unique tokens, and there can be a value attached to that token that would be shared amongst all the tokens. So the token could be worth a penny, the token could be worth a dollar, the token could be worth $1,000, et cetera. And we have seen tokens in this ever growing biosphere ultimately have values of pennies. Some are worth nothing, some are worth pennies, and some have gone up in value to being worth tens of thousands of dollars. So there's this huge, huge gap in value. But basically it's a digital symbol and you store it in a digital wallet. So it's all digital, it's all on your phone. And it's part of the world of blockchain technology, which is sort of like the next evolution of the Internet. So right now this is, you know, the equivalent of like the first 10 years of the Internet, not the last 20 years of it. So this is like, like late 90s Internet is where this technology is, and it's just now starting to really gain a tremendous amount of popularity around the world simply because it's changing and disrupting fundamental aspects of the system. So, you know, the way businesses get formed have been changed by this technology. Now we're talking about the way artists and individuals in a social community can be valued. Different kinds of marketplace systems have been created utilizing these tokens. There have been different kinds of finance systems that have also been created, et cetera, where people are now gaining interest rates and, you know, all new different ways of thinking about the economy and.

In your expertise, because I know that you've been playing in this world a lot, which, by the way, I think is so special that it's guided by the plants as well. You know, there's, there's a lot of, I guess you could say, voices and energy and really like spiritual courage behind you in order to create something like this. Otherwise, if you were just a businessman and you didn't have your feet in spirituality or in harmony with the plants whatsoever, I don't think there's any way you could have created this. And that's why this is so special, because there are a ton of coins out there, there's a ton of crypto companies, and there's all this momentum, but they're all asking one question, and it's the wrong question. And it is, how do I benefit the most? How do I make as much money? How do I secure my wealth? I don't think that's the right question. I think a better question that I believe you're doing with Sizzle is how do we get paid to be ourselves? How do we have fun and get paid to be ourselves? That's the eternal question, I think, for most creators or most people that consider themselves to be expressionists. And I think that's the question that you're asking here. And I'm curious how people are responding so far.

So far the response has been incredible, literally incredible. It's like a breath of fresh air when people hear that they can value themselves as a community and that together they can create value. I think people feel very isolated in what it is to create, economy, have a job, you know, work in a collective or etc. I think they feel very isolated. And I think as a creative, you also feel very distanced and separated from the community. And you create an incredible product, you put your heart and soul into it, and then you see ultimately what happens to that. And so we've had incredible responses so far from the community that's forming. We literally launched two weeks ago, so it's just in its very, very earliest infant stages of growth. But the response from both the creative side and the community side is merging together in just an unbelievable way. It's symbiotic and it's fantastic to see. It is a growing community on its own already. And we just want to add even more incentive to that. And we're giving away 5 million tokens to the first members who sign up. And you can check it out on Sizzle Media.

This is amazing. And we covered so much ground. I love that we went from the dark and light of plant medicine entities and a PhD who sat outside your ceremony hall and saw a bunch of smoke leaving. And then we ended up here at really tokens and digital currency. And I think that's the fascination that I have just with our current world right now. We are, as Kevin Kelly says, experiencing the technium. Technology is consciousness. It's experience, it's experiencing itself. And I think about that and I'm like, how could that be? Because there's, for so long people were like, kind of at war with technology. Like, the IoT is going to kill us and the government is watching us. And regardless of if those things are true or not, which I do believe many of them are, I think that technology does have a good side. So I Don't think that we can ever throw it out like the baby with the bathwater here. And we did cover a lot of ground, man. So if there's anything that you have not been asked on a podcast yet, either about the plant medicine aspect of your life and being a shaman, or what you're doing with sizzle and how those two worlds congregate, what would that be?

It's a really good question, I think. What motivates me? No one's ever asked me on any of the podcasts why I've actually gone and done all of this.

Well, what motivates you fundamentally?

Love, the power of love, and the power of what I believe to be the true love of the collective of humanity. And we're fueled by passion, and we're fueled by our own initiative. And when we harness that, there's no limit to what we can be as a collective species.

Well, thanks for doing so much loving work in the world. It's been great to learn from you, both as a friend and also a colleague in the world of creative expression and allowing people to get paid for being themselves. I think that's the ultimate dream that we all want, and it's right here. It's right here at our fingertips. I mean, I'm talking to you through a computer. You're halfway across the planet. I mean, if that isn't a miracle in itself, let's just take a deep breath and recognize it for what it is. Hamilton, as we say goodbye, with all the things you've accomplished so far, both in financial and crypto and also in plants and being a trained shaman, if you were to pull, let's say, 100,000ft up in the air and look down at yourself here, playing out this theater of human life, what would you define as living that life? Well, in other words, what would you define as wellness? How does Hamilton Souther define living life well, and living a life full of wellness?

I think the first secret to wellness is to go deep within yourself and understand your true nature. And that includes your heart. You got to go deep, deep, deep into your heart. Not into the mind and into the story, but deep into your heart and really find this unique essence to why you have been created. It's not an accident that you've been created. And you have a fundamental special purpose. And the origin of that wellness comes from deep within the heart. And when you sync the heart with the brain, the heart has an intelligence and a knowledge for you that is not only the beginning of living that wellness, but also the fuel and the support and the energy that you need to then live that for the rest of your life.

Thank you for coming on the show, man. A long time coming and so worth the wait. People can go to the show Notes Today you can learn about wellnessforce.com sizzle. You can enter to win these tokens, which is incredible. If you're a creator of any kind, if you're somebody that's like, I want to have a podcast or I want to speak my truth and I want to live this life that I'm writing, go there, go there. Trust yourself to go there. So until you go there, until we see you again real soon, myself, Josh and Hamilton, we're wishing you love and wellness. We'll talk to you soon. It.