Is Childhood Trauma the Reason You’re Not Achieving Your Goals?

The language that your parents speak to you becomes the language that you speak to yourself for the rest of your life. The way you speak was learned. The words you use are learned. So therefore, if our ideas are from the words we speak, then that's also learned.

John Wang is a leadership coach, TEDx speaker, and author of Big Asian Energy.

If your parents didn't know how to speak, let's say, the language of love, the language of understanding, then it's likely that you didn't learn that language either. What your mom said to you at that age wasn't about you. She was telling that to her own inner child. So she took that out on you because that's the only way she could think. If I made you better, then I would be better. But when you're 12, 13 years old, all you understand is the internalization that you're wrong, you're bad, and you're not good enough.

What is the price that is paid when the generational trauma that we didn't necessarily ask for cannot be healed?

This is the real answer. I think that we carry our parents, our grandparents, and even our great parents with us our entire lives, unconsciously, when we think that we have a voice. And I found out recently that, like, because I was doing some. I took a class and I'm learning how to speak better because I'm like recording an audiobook right now. And the coach told me, you don't know how to breathe. And I'm like, what? He's like, yeah, you don't know how to breathe. Like, you learned the wrong way to breathe by watching how other people breathe. You know, who knows how to breathe? Babies know how to breathe. And you don't know how to speak. The way you speak was learned. The words you use are learned. So therefore, if our ideas are from the words we speak, then that's also learned. And who do we learn that from? Our parents. And who did they learn that from? Their parents. So are your grandparents facing the same struggles that you are now? Of course not. My grandparents, they were dealing with things like famine and war. Like, they dealt with some real stuff.

Yeah, yeah.

And so the, the patterns they learned to survive, to like, pass that down. I have that in my body, but I'm not facing famine and war. But yet that is the level of anxiety, that is the level of fear sometimes. That is the level of self judgment and guilt and all the kind of stuff that I carry because they had to carry it. And why? Just because no one ever stopped and said, hey, I think we need to Learn how to breathe. I think we need to learn how to speak. And that includes the way you speak to yourself. That includes the way you speak to the people around you. And that blew my mind. And this is, I think, the first step of how do we relearn to be who we're supposed to be, our true selves? That's where. That's the price.

Yeah, it sounds like the price is really just not living our own authentic life. Ultimately. That's a big price tag, John.

Oh, yeah.

And this is like the most exciting thing. There's so many exciting things we're gonna talk about today, but if y' all are watching on Spotify and YouTube. So this is John's big Asian energy. And I love this. The unapologetic guide for breaking barriers to leadership and success. Yeah, the barriers are part and parcel. Some of what you spoke about, the way that we learn to breathe, the way that we learn to speak. And we do it because we're modeled that from parental example, which God loved them. They did the best they could. Right. Your mother, your father, your grandparents. Like this. This conversation is really timeless because I don't see a world in 10 years or 20 years where we're all perfectly healed.

You.

I think it's a work in progress.

Is what I'm going to keep going. We're going to keep going.

Like, we're just going to keep learning the next layer and what that is. And so, you know, it really begs the ultimate question of why this book. I know there's a huge backstory to why this book. So you have a big personality, you're a tall man, and you just happen to be Asian. But the way that it worked out and all the people and experiences that had to come to you and to write this book. Could you give me a sentence or two about why now? Like, out of all the times to write it, like this phase in your life, you just turned 40. What is it about this current time in your life that allowed you to write the book and have it be published?

You know, thank you, by the way, for. For saying. Talking about my energy. The truth is, when I was young, like, I wrote this book, the way I see it is that this is a book that I wish that I had when I was a teenager, because I was nowhere like this. I was shy, I wasn't outspoken. I didn't feel confident. And anytime that I was showing up, I was being performative. I was putting on an act.

Yeah.

And it was an act that I didn't even realize was an act. Why now? Is because I think I finally went through enough experiences. That includes mistakes that I made along the way. Yeah. Or I could finally put the pieces together. And I think that for so many people that I've spoken to, that I have supported or worked with along the way, we're having a collective awakening moment, or we're going, this was something that we have done for a long time, and it doesn't have to be the way we'd keep doing it, moving forward.

Yeah, I think I feel that. Actually. I felt that ever since I was a kid. I just had this initial thought, and I was like, there's more to life than this. Why are these adults so mean to each other? What is this all about? It's like one of the earliest memories I could ever touch.

Yeah.

I had that memory.

Yeah.

And throughout my life and all the challenges I've had, it always comes back to this question, well, how can we actually live differently? Not in anger or in spite of our parents or our upbringers, but how can we live differently? By learning from their pitfalls, by learning from the trauma and the pain and the fear and really ultimately do the programming that they themselves were a byproduct of. Is that some of the undercurrent in the book. I know you speak about generational healing in the book quite a bit. How does that interplay in the book? This aspect I'm speaking about?

Absolutely. So the main premise of the book talks about is we take on patterns. And by patterns, we mean both behavioral patterns, belief patterns. They're almost like habits, but they're so ingrained that they're just invisible to us. And this could look like the belief that, you know, when I wake, whenever I'm doing something, I have to constantly overachieve if I'm not doing more than I am. Broken, imperfect, or not enough. Or it could be, I need to take care of everyone else around me. I need to people, please, or I need to caretake their needs all the time. And we have a tendency to take a look at those things, as, you know, from the judgment of, like, oh, those are bad habits. We got to break those, like, you know, imposter syndrome. Inner criticism.

Yeah, they're really demonized.

They're really demonized. But we forget that they were there to. To help us at some point to survive. And some of those patterns, like I said, are passed on. They're not ours. We didn't create them for our survival. We took them on because our parents taught them to us. One of my Favorite quotes is like, you know, if your parents didn't speak Italian, it's not like you're going to grow up knowing how to speak Italian. And if your parents didn't know how to speak, let's say, the language of love, the language of nurture, the language of understanding, then it's likely that you didn't learn that language either. And for me, sometimes that language of love was literal. Like, my parents growing up, they're, you know, more traditional Asian parents. Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm just gonna go into some stuff that I'm like, these are my experiences. I don't want to stereotype all Asians here, but they never use words like, I love you or I'm proud of you. Like, that was not a. Like, they just didn't use emotional language a lot. They express love in other ways. They'll, like, come and, like, ask me if I've eaten, or they'll, like, come and try to put a jacket on me. You know, like, that's their way of expressing love. And sometimes their way of expressing love wasn't criticizing me, because that's how they feel. Like, I need to protect you from making mistakes that I think you'll make. So let me criticize you so that you avoid it. And that language, as they say, the language that your parents speak to you becomes the language that you speak to yourself for the rest of your life.

The big piece of this. Sorry to interrupt you. The big piece of this is the way in which they learned how to parent. And then it breaks down. I love in the book, you talk about these three categories, and if you were going to finish your thought, please go.

No, no, no, no.

The way you describe this is the first time I've ever heard this. The tiger, the jellyfish, and the dolphin. The. The tiger being the authoritative parenting style. The parenting style. The permissive being the jellyfish, and then the dolphin being authoritative and open. So, love with rules. Which one were your parents?

They definitely were my. Okay, so this is where it's fun. My mom was very much the tiger parent. She would never, like. She would never approve of me saying this. We had this argument because when I was writing this book, she was like, I don't call me a tiger mom. And I'm. I'm. Okay. I won't use those words exactly. Yeah. But the way that our parenting was structured, definitely. She was far more. The authoritarian one was like, look, this is the way it is. It's kind of like it could be something as simple as this is what you can be like, here are the jobs you're allowed to be. And it's almost like your future is kind of decided, like not between, not not with you, but like you're not even in the room. It's kind of like decided between you and you're aunties and uncles and then you get together and it's kind of given to you now. For me, it was never quite that direct, but it was also in. Just in the day to day things like expectations of. Here are the classes you're supposed to take, here are the places you're supposed to go, here are the ways you're supposed to act. My dad, on the other hand, way too passive. And that's not a criticism of just the way he was. You know, he was a very passive kind of parent. He just kind of laid back and he went to his own room and just kind of vanished. And I feel like that's almost a little bit of a stereotype in and of itself. Okay. Like the, the, the. The more demanding Asian mom and like the more passive, almost like overly nice Asian dad, like I've seen that play out before. That's a whole other story. But yeah, I would say growing up, parenting style, definitely more on the authoritarian side, on the tiger side, so to speak.

Last night at dinner, we were talking and I know you and your wife are, you know, welcoming in children at some point. Yeah, I think it's really cool. Your 40th year of life, you're coming out with the book that is really an encapsulation of all the freaking spiritual work, personal work, past life work, current life work that you've done. And it's like really a choose your own adventure book. This isn't just for Asian people, by the way.

I don't think so. I think it's for anyone who wants to read it. I'm Asian. That's where the inspiration comes from. Um, and there are topics in there that are more, I would say, like Asian specific. But yeah, the core message behind it, even the idea, you know, we, we talk about the idea as it's an unapologetic guide for breaking barriers of leadership. And I think people's natural assumption is that this is a business book. It's like, oh, well, if I don't want to be a leader, but I think leadership is self leadership. And what I mean by self leadership is like, if you don't currently feel like you are dictating the direction of your life, where you have a clear idea of this is who I'm gonna Be where I'm gonna go. And I alone get to make that decision. And I'm not talking about outside forces, which we all have to deal with. Like, yeah, you gotta deal with getting a job and all that kind of stuff. I'm talking like your own vision for yourself. That's what I mean by self leadership. Cause we don't follow people who don't lead themselves. Mm.

Yeah. The big piece of this is like, we all know what it feels like when we're in flow, you know, flow state. Jamie Wheal talks about this. Stealing fire. Steven Kotler, love it. Flow state is like this wonderful space, yet it's elusive. And it's even more elusive when you're dealing with baggage emotionally, epigenetically, that you don't even know. You don't know. It's unconscious incompetence, to quote the NLP model. And I know you've gone quite deep into nlp. And before we walked down to the studio, we were talking about words or spells. And so it's so important, the words that we use when. When you go to sit and write a book, it is no easy feat. Right. You have to summon the muse. Steven Pressfield talks about this. If you don't summon the muse and go with her, she's going to find someone else. What was the muse with this? Is there a certain part of your upbringing. Is there a certain part of your life that was in, let's say, the most pain or feeling most out of alignment that really propelled you to write the book?

You know, we were talking about Alan Armstrong's stages.

Yes.

Yesterday. Yes. Is it okay that I mentioned?

Oh, yeah.

She thinks she's right. After you next week. Which is what a. What an incredible synchronicity. Totally. And I think that I could actually identify exactly, like, my biggest points of life change happen at those critical junctures. I can see myself going from pagehood, which is like when you're in your early stage of development. So we go through. So Alan Armstrong's, by the way, read her books if you haven't done so yet. She talks about these four stages, and I'm going to use the male model, but she also talks about the female model, which is a different one. And in the male model, it's page, knight, prince and king. We go through these four stages. They cannot be rushed, they cannot be skipped. And each one comes with its own trials and challenges. I think when I was in my page stage, that was when I was just trying to be. Trying to find out who I am. And really trying to live up to two versions. One is my parents expectation of me. And when you're growing up in a household like mine with, you know, again, I'm going to use the word traditional Asian parenting, the expectations are big because in my culture, the culture identity is that you are representative of your family. You're a representative of your family. So what your successes are is your family success. This is not just Asian, I want to be clear. This is a lot of people's families. In fact, there's studies in here we take a look at. Oh, like very common in, you know, any collectivist cultures. Like Latin American families very much like this. A lot of Eastern European families very much like this. All over Asia, of course, where the group, the families needs come first. So I always grew up feeling like I had this model of who I was supposed to be. And that model was so uncertain and unclear because you're always being compared to other people. Like you bring home an exam and you're like being told, yeah, you did pretty good, but like, your cousin did better. Yeah, you know, oh, yeah, you got into the school, but like, you know, so and so's kid got into that other school. So you're always feeling like whatever you are, you're just not enough. And there's such a deep desire to be enough, because I want to belong. And then there's this other person who is going to school, being this little kid, Asian kid in a mostly white school and being like, okay, like I want to be like the white kids because they seem so cool. They, they are popular, they're doing sports. They seem to really have things together. And I want to be like them and trying to find that. So there's a split in who I was trying to be. That brought about probably one of the biggest internal struggles that, you know, went on for quite a long time.

Your mom, you brought home a math test and you got it, you got a 92.

Yeah.

And her response to you was, well, what happened to the other eight?

Yeah, absolutely. And it was like that for everything. You know, it's not just about math. It's like everything that I was doing, you know, was being looked at. And sometimes that was being looked at with anger. You know, she would get angry if I wasn't hitting a certain expectation. And now as an adult, I can go back and I can look at it with some sense of compassion.

Yeah.

Because I go right. You know, she had to sacrifice a lot to come to this foreign place, this new country, you know, start over. And so all the pressures for her to be a good mom is also. Now I can see. Speaking of intergenerational trauma, I can also see that as she's trying to be a good daughter, she's trying to be a good version of herself, which is a lot of pressure to take on. But when you're 12, 13 years old and you're on the. You know, you're being yelled at, you're being told that you're not good enough. You're. You're. Maybe for, you know, for me, it was getting hit with, you know, like a bamboo back scratcher. Hmm. You don't understand it. All you understand is the internalization that you're wrong, you're bad, and you're not good enough. And that's the thing, is that you can't reason with a child and explain to them there's a difference between doing bad and being bad. They kind of intermingle the two. Right. It's a super ego identity of, like, everything that goes wrong is my fault, that we also cannot take on. So there was healing that had to happen through there. And I. Now, look, we have. We have a good relationship now. I love my mom. She's amazing. She's one of my favorite people, and I could see her strength. And there's also so much of her that led me to, you know, learn how to break through barriers. Like, one of my favorite things that I look back on that I'm so grateful for is, uh, we would travel, we would do these road trips. And because her English wasn't the best, and I think she just wanted to push me to be more outgoing, she would just stop. Like, we'd drive across Canada camping, and she would just stop, and she'd be like, go and ask for directions. And I would. I would have to, like, learn to get over my fears and, like, have my little map and, like, go over to these adults and ask for directions. And I look at that now and be like, that was part of the big Asian energy.

Yeah.

Right. So it's everything. And I think that I don't like to use blame because, you know, blame suggests fault. And at the end of the day, people are just people.

Yeah. It's like you said, if you don't know Italian and you don't know love, then how could you possibly speak it?

Yeah.

It makes perfect sense. I think we all understand this, which is why I was waiting. I wanted to tell you last night.

Yeah.

What I'm working on is this theory of emotional epigenetics. And you actually touched on it maybe without even knowing it in your book.

Oh, tell me.

And you mentioned ifs and parts work and the therapy that you've done. Like, you've gone very deep. At some point, you were even on a plane trying, trying to, trying to change your fear of heights. Like, you really, you've really done the work to be able to make this a amalgamation of your lessons, of your wisdom. And, and, and when I look back on my life, I'm like, yeah, every lesson that ever came came from me feeling like I was not loved, not enough, not accepted, too much, fill in the blank. But actually, paradoxically, that was the source that drives this podcast. That was the very thing that allows me to sit here with you after 10 years and 700 plus EP. So there's such a gift in it, man.

100.

Such a massive gift. So I'll turn it back to you.

Yeah.

The gift that this book really is for your own healing, juxtaposed with the healing that so many people can get from it. What's the sense on that? What's the palpability of the healing that you've received just by sitting and doing the research and going through yourself and your own inventory of all the learnings and the hardships you've done? Is there something that bubbles up like the best way you've healed. What is the best way you've healed from writing the book?

The best way that I've healed from writing the book is realizing that my story is everyone's story. And what I mean by that is that there is nothing here. Like you said, there's nothing here that is only Asian specific. There's nothing here that is only my story specific. I've gone through a lot of personal experiences. Like, yeah, like I did the, the wing walking thing and I did the year of telling only telling the truth.

That's such a good one.

You know, I prepared for my death for a year. And early on you asked me, you know, why now? Why, why did I come to write this book? Yeah. And I think it's because I just got really tired of meeting with, because I, I, I, I do coaching, right? I work with, you know, students, I work with professionals. And I, you know, I put together these groups and I just got to a point where I'm like, I just want to yell at people and say, it's not about what you say, it's not about what you do. You think that's what it's about because that's what you condition to think. You think it's another performance and that you think it's another character you had to put on. It's really about breaking down all of those performances to finding out who you are at the center of it, at that, you know, delicious, juicy center at the core of who you are, because that's where the light is. That's where the magic is. But we've been taught to distrust that. We've been taught and conditioned that there's something incomplete, broken, not good enough about that. So then we keep thinking, okay, let me put on more layers, right? So the conditioning that we've talked about is in that book. We talk about the seven patterns that are most commonly we see showing up. And these are all survival mechanisms. And the closer we get to letting them go and still allowing that, still there. We talk about parts work. By the way, if you had to ask what was the best modality, in case that was your question, I feel like I kind of took your question the other direction. It's great. It's good.

It's good.

Personally, I think IFS is one of my favorite modalities.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's, like, hands down, like, one of the most powerful, because, you know, talk therapy is great, but nothing gets straight through to really hearing what. What. What voices are in there. That picture that. That you have on the wall here.

Yes. It's on the screen right now, y'. All.

Yeah. So good.

Best thing I've ever seen from Burning man.

That that is who we are every moment. And I just think that, honestly, if we are just able to just be kids with each other at every moment and have that curiosity and joy and play, that is actually when we are at the best performing version of ourselves. That's when we are doing our best work. I never thought writing a book would be so hard. I remember before I started writing a book, I was talking to a buddy of mine. His name is Corey Mascara. He. He is an author. And he talked about, like, he's, like, writing a book was one of the hardest things he ever done. I'm like, really? This guy's. He's an ex monk. He's, like, created amazing things, and he's like, really? I would have thought it'd be easy, you know, I understood later when I started writing why it was so hard, because you're forced to confront the lessons that you've learned and kind of live through them again.

Yeah. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And my buddy Luke here is writing a book. He echoes the same lessons, I think anybody. I've had a lot of authors on the show they all say a fragment of what you just said. And to echo back on what we said, the generational stuff, how we opened up the conversation. And when I say generational stuff, I'm just saying stuff as like a very low level word. It's actually just generational trauma. That's essentially what it. And trauma doesn't always have to be capital T, right?

No.

Trauma can be this lower level, lowercase teas that happen over time. Maybe it's like your parent bringing you a jacket but never saying I love you. Like these are, these are lowercase teas you talk about in the book. The, the achievement above all else. This is like a, a really big piece of the tiger tell parent.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

The tiger mom. Parent.

Parent. Yeah.

So the external validation over internal fulfillment, the, the fulfillment that we're all seeking, if our parents don't have that fulfillment in themselves, how could they ever give it to us? How could they ever possibly give it to us?

Yeah. So this is tough. And I, and I saw a lot, you know, when I was, when I was, for a while in my life, I was a teacher and specifically I worked with Asian, Asian American, Asian Canadian students who were usually like, from high achieving families who wanted to send their kids to like top American schools. Like that was the general trend. Like that was the general demographic. And it was sometimes really hard to watch because I got to watch what that type of parenting looked like in real life and I got to watch what it was like on the other side of it because a lot of students later on would, you know, after like working there for like 10 years, they'd graduate, they go off to these schools like Yale and Stanford. They go off into these like fancy businesses like Google and you know, Microsoft, et cetera. And they come back and I'll be like, oh, it's great, like I haven't seen you in a while. And they'll come back and they'll ask me questions about life and relationships and you know, we have that kind of relationship. We're, we're close. I gotta be like, it felt like I was being their big brother kind of way. Yeah, yeah. And I also got to see almost a time travel because I'm like, I remember when I sat with your mom and your mom basically being so angry that, you know, you didn't get that 95, 96 because somebody else in your class got a 1% higher grade, like that was the metrics and was so angry that like she took away everything you had and wouldn't let you go out and Took away your phone and wouldn't let you and yelled at you and belittled you and all those things. And I got to see that, and it broke my heart on that side. And now I got to see how terrified you are of telling people what things you're excited to make about the project you're currently working on. Or, like, even just, like, telling your boss, like, hey, like, I'm pretty proud of this thing. Because in your brain, you've been conditioned to think that anything less than being better at everyone on everything means you're not worthy of approval and acknowledgement and recognition. That stuff broke my heart, but it also made perfect sense. And I'm like, yeah. And I wish if I could go back in time, I would tell you back then that. That what your mom said to you at that age wasn't about you. She was telling that to her own inner child. She was telling her she was yelling at her own inner child for, why didn't you work harder? Why didn't you make more money? Why didn't you do more so that now you could give your children more? And she didn't know how to handle that, so she took that out on you because that's the only way she could think. If I made better, then I would be better. Then I could go back to my parents and say, look. Look at my successes. My kids in Stanford, my kid works at Google. And I go, but that's not your security. That was never your security. I'm emotional because I'm also, like, remembering a conversation I had with my own therapist. And it was so simplistic and it's so easy. She once told me, unconditional love is a child's birthright. So obvious, right?

Of course.

Like, obviously, like, you look at a child like a baby, and you're like, you deserve love. Like, just. No, you don't have to. Just for the fact that you are just. Just because you are.

Yeah.

And I remember such a simple and easy thing when I first heard it. I just started crying. I just started bawling. And I didn't understand why. And it was. It was such a simple phrase of just like. It's like you just deserved love. Not because you had to be anything, just because you were. And I think that that at the core of it is the love that I had to learn how to go back and re. Give myself. And that's what happened through the inner child work, the ifs.

This is so powerful. And I can feel your emotion, too, because, like, like you said, all of Us. And it's not about blame. Right. Because blame is disempowering. Awareness is different than blame. With awareness, I can take a empowering stance on how I choose how things happened for me.

Yeah.

Now, from a language perspective, if something happens to you or for you, there's a significant impact to the unconscious mind. How deep in writing the book and in being a teacher and in working with these high achieving professionals, like how deep did you actually go into nlp? And was there a moment where NLP really clicked for you? Where you thought, wow, the words I speak create my reality? Or was it more of like a long term thing?

I think at this point I just think that NLP is just part of how I communicate.

It's part of your being.

I don't know if I'd practice nlp. Like there was a. I think I was leading a workshop the other day and I was just like leading a meditation and somebody asked me, I think someone in the group who had some background was just like, I just want to check, like, were you putting us in a trance? And I'm like, oh, yeah, I guess so. Whoops. So the reason I say that is that of course because the way we talk to ourselves, we're programming ourselves at any given moment.

Yeah.

One of my favorite tools, by the way, when I was dealing with like some of the toughest days, you know, where nothing was going right, where I was like just dealing with problems at work, problems in relationship, all that kind of stuff, and I just felt really low and really down on myself. One of the quickest ways I didn't realize this, but your brain works like a search engine. In other words, it processes whatever questions you give it. Kind of like, kind of like Google. And I found this out, is that if you ask yourself why, followed by whatever you want to program, your brain will automatically look for reasons. So I was in a pattern where I was constantly looking for reasons of why I'm not good enough. I never noticed that until that time. I was just like, anytime something bad happens, they're like, oh, of course that happened. This is, this is why it is that nobody cares. This is why it is that like, you know, I'm like, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm a screw up, I'm a blah, blah, blah. Now of all this kind of like negative self talk, constantly running the background, kind of like this very low hum.

Yeah.

Of, of inner criticism. And it wasn't a voice of anger. When I was doing my own IFS work, my therapist asked me what that person, the voice look like? And I was like, he looked like a bureaucrat. And I described him as a. As a guy wearing a brown vest, boring glasses, and he just had a checklist. And he was like an accountant. And he was just grading everything in my life and giving it a bad grade. And my therapist asked me, it's like, well, what happens when you can finally get a good grade? And it's like, well, I'll be let in. And she's like, let in. Aware. And I'm like, I don't know, but that's where I want to go. And it was accepted right wherever it is that everyone else gets to be being happy, being accepted. So I decided, okay, what if I could reprogram that? And I just started asking myself, why? Why does everyone love me? Why does everything go well for me? Like, I'm done, I'm done. I'm done accepting that. I'm like, I just started reprogram, like, why does, you know, why does everything seem to go well for me recently? And I'll just keep asking myself that question. And it's incredible because then your brain starts looking for things. So when you, you can't ask yourself, I wonder why. Why does things keep going well for me lately without your brain automatically then going, oh, this happened. That was pretty good. I wonder why this happened. That was pretty good. And your brain just starts focusing on that.

It's much different than just positive thinking, though. This is like positive mapping.

Yes.

It's much deeper than just think positively.

No.

Which is really not about denial.

It's not about, like, yeah, thinking positive is just like, ignoring. It's actually tapping into the gratitude of, like, what is reality? Because in reality, the way we take a look at it is the map, as you said. I love that positive mapping. Like, what is actually happening here? How do we see where it all fits?

Yeah.

But being more, I think, personally being more realistic.

Realistic on what terms?

Well, we're telling the truth, right? You ever hear the four questions, I think, is this true? Do I absolutely know that it's true?

Byron, Katie, Byron, Katie's work.

Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Because when you ask a belief, is this true? And do I know without question that it's true? Can I know that it's true? You start realizing how many things of, like, the beliefs that we carry is just poof, out the window.

This is why it's so powerful. Her next question is, who would I be without that thought? And then the last question is the turnaround. Right?

Yeah.

How is this actually. All me creating it. Exactly. Which is really. It can be very confronting. And that's just one modality of healing or introspection. There's many that I think have been informed by her.

Yeah.

But the. At the core of it all, what I'm getting from you is it's not just about forcing it. That's why, like, three years ago, I changed the podcast from Wellness Force to Wellness and Wisdom because I didn't like the word force.

Right.

The etymology of force was like, ah, yeah. It didn't feel good. It didn't feel good.

Yeah.

But. But there's so much power in the wisdom of being able, having the capacity of self reflection. I mean, there's so many exercises, there's journaling prompts in here. This is an awesome book, and I've read a lot of books. There's been, like, probably 500 books that I've read. Some of them are here in the studio. The coolest part about your work is that you don't have to go from A to Z all. All up front. No. You can literally just like, scan the beginning. Be like, okay, which one actually feels the most wounded in me? And I don't say that out of shame.

No.

Right. Like, which part of the table of contents do I feel like I'm going to go towards? Because it's actually my soul calling me forth for healing. And that's the coolest part, is, like, I think people can get really overwhelmed with the conversation of generational healing. Or, you know, I feel all these things, but yet I don't know how to feel them, nor do I have the understanding of what that looks like. Is. Is there a starting place? I Understand there's page one and page 300, but is there a starting place for. And let's just go to the Asian culture.

Right.

In the Asian culture, the wounds that you've spoken about, which, by the way, are not exclusive to the Asian culture. This. These wounds happen in all cultures.

Right.

You mentioned some of them. Is there a starting place for just the awareness or the recognition? Call it an emotional inventory, if you will, where people can begin when they're feeling like, God, I. I wish I wasn't Asian. I wish I was white. Like, where's the beginning stages of introspection there?

That's a really deep question, because I think that from my experience, the. I wish I was an Asian, I wish I was white is a complex thing. There's a part of me that was proud of the fact that I was Asian, but there's also Another part of me that recognized that being Asian when I was growing up wasn't an advantage in the sense of, like, people generally pigeonholed me into this identity. I mean, it was kind of like, we talk about the fact that, yeah, I'm tall, but people oftentimes will be like, you're tall for an Asian person. You're good looking for an Asian person. Other people said that specifically. But, like, quotes like, you're blank for an Asian person, or like, you're really bad at math for an Asian person. It's the identity work, right? And I started going, oh, so am I just not Asian enough? Like, am I a bad Asian? I had a funny moment. We were in. I was at a dinner, and somebody asked me, what kind of Asian are you? And I think they. The way that that question was meant was like, are you, you know, Chinese, Japanese, whatever it is. And, you know, I was born in Taiwan. And my reflexive answer was not a very good one because I'm like, I don't. I. I don't think that I fit into the cultural identity very well. Um, I tried to add all the different pieces as entrance points of exploration. There is, you know, three parts of the book. The first part is all about the patterns and inner work. It talks about, you know, this pressure to overachieve, the pressure to take care of everyone else around you. Right. And I map out these seven different patterns that kind of show up the most. And, you know, the first one is achiever with a sense of like, I have to keep running on this treadmill, and I have to keep doing more and being more and doing more. But yet, yeah, every time you hit a, like a part, you know, milestone, you never can accept appreciation or praise. Like, if somebody's like, good job on that. Like, your first thought is like, no, no, no. Like, I'm not done yet. I need to get to the next level. And then we take a look at the fixer. The fixer is one who has to constantly take care of everybody else around them. It's like, you know, that's the people pleasing patterns. Like the. I need to set myself on fire to keep other people warm. Because again, you're taught that if you're not doing that, then you are not a good family member. And then we talk about the chameleon, which is when we have to shape shift. So when we're talking about that Asian identity thing, that, for me was a big one. I learned to be a chameleon. So when I was around my white friends, I acted more White. I think in the cultural discussion, this is called code switching. Right. But I learned that even when I'm around Asian people, I had to switch into the type of Asian that they were. Are they like, really recent immigrant type Asians, you know, and I'll, like, almost like, speak with a little bit more of an accent. And it's all unconscious. I just want to fit in.

Yeah.

Right. So I try to be a better Asian for them or like around my Taiwanese Asian friends versus my Chinese Asian friends. It's a different thing. So all of these patterns in these seven mapped out patterns, then we also have the rebel, we also have the charmer, which is like, we feel like we always have to put on a smile and, you know, be like charming and charismatic because that's the only version of you that other people will like.

Yeah.

All of those are different ways of being. They're different ways that we've learned to put on an identity to better fit in.

These are the coping strategies.

These are the coping strategies. These are the patterns. Adaptive patterns, really. So whichever one. I mean, I have a quiz online. If you go to Big Asian Energy, I think Dot com, you'll find a quiz where you could see, answer some questions and it'll tell you which ones, you know, which of these patterns show up more often? I'm. We're all. All seven. I think we all have a little bit of it. I was.

I was actually looking at it. It's on the screen right now. Y', all, the map that you have. Yeah. So looking at the screen, if you're watching it here, like in the set, it almost looks like a Venn diagram.

Yeah.

Right. You've seen that. What does the world want? What are you good at? What do you love and what do people pay you for? And I actually resonated more with the Commander and the chameleon.

Oh, yeah, I can see that. Yeah.

Because the Commander is like a bit like he'll go through whatever suffering is needed and prove it to his troops and his people.

Yeah.

But the part of this that's so wild is that, yes, we do weave in all of these seven. I guess you could call them archetypes as well.

Yeah.

But there is genuinely, most of the time, not all the time, there is most likely one that we feel we operate on the most.

Oh, 100%, always. That's like the one that. And usually that's the one that we were most conditioned as a child. I didn't just come up with out of nowhere. I actually work with a psychologist to Create this and the psych. Because I just came in and I was like, I'm seeing these patterns. I was doing a lot of inner work. I'm mapping it out from everything. I'm looking at everything from, like, you know, different archetypes. I was looking at Dr. La Pera's work. Yeah. I was looking at all these different work, and I was like, I feel like there's something here that's more prominent with my Asian clients. And I brought her a psychologist. And actually she was the one who helped me come up with the seventh one, which was the invisible one. Oh. Because I. I went to her and I said, okay, so I take a look at these six I have mapped out. These were six on the map. So the three corners are assertiveness, competence, and empathy. And these are the. The ways of being that we usually lead with. Do we lead mostly through competence? I'm good enough because I'm good at what I do. I'm good enough. You know, if you're more on the rebel or commander side. I'm good enough because I'm not always the smartest one, but I'll take charge and I'll, like, make sure everyone is, like, taking care of things. Or am I more on the empathy side, which is like, I'm good enough because I'm warm and I'm caring. And then she looked at this and she said, you're missing one. I'm like, what? And she's like, yeah, there's the invisible one. The invisible one is in the room, but you can't see them because they've disowned all three parts. And that dropped me. And I was like, wow, that's it. And so many of us, we also tap into that. The passive observer. We're just gonna disconnect entirely.

Yeah. You know, this is where we disassociate at times, too. If you look at parts work, right.

Oh, yeah.

The avoidant and the secure and the anxious, you know, the healing ourselves in our generations. It's not just unresolved trauma. It's also the economic struggles and. And the racial inequality and the cultural disconnect and really the mental health stigma as well. If you are coming from. And I'll. I'll speak from what I know, from the Asian friends that I've had. Yeah, they've all been really hard achievers. Like, I look back on high and in all walks of life, and they've been high performers for the most part. I know I'm making a blanket statement, but no greater comes to a physical, psychosomatic experience than it did for you in 2016. You were on the stage giving a talk, literally speaking about high performance to high performers, and you're like, hold on, I got to sit down. And you had to sit in a chair because your stomach ulcers were just raging and you were having health issues. Shoes.

Yeah.

Like, walk us through the psychosomatic experience of being so much in the assertiveness, so much in our coping strategy, that psychosomatically, we actually start to make ourselves sick. Because it happened for you.

Oh, deeply. And I didn't realize it had anything to do with the emotionality of things. Like, the word psychosomatic didn't exist in my vocabulary at the time. All throughout my twenties, I traveled around the world a lot, and that was, like, part of my identity, right? Was like, oh, look at me. Like, I'm a successful entrepreneur. Like, I have this fast car, and I take fancy trips and all these kind of things. And I really didn't realize how anxious I was all the time, you know, I was posting to Instagram. I was, like, looking, whatever, but, like, I was always tensing. I never. Like, we're talking about how I learned how to breathe. I never knew how to breathe because I was always holding my breath. And I never realized how much I tense my whole body. I would tense my shoulders, I would tense my chest. I would tense my stomach. And constantly, I will hold that in because it's a feeling of I need to suppress my emotions. So when I was feeling sad, I'll be like, I'm not feeling sad. I'll push it down, push it down. I'll push it into my stomach, and I'd clench. And actually, my dad has ulcers, so I thought it was maybe like, even, you know, hereditary. And then it's interesting because in some ways it is, but I want to talk to a doctor, and the doctor's like, no, like, ulcers. Everyone can get ulcers. It's just, you know how stressed out you are. Yes, exactly.

Yeah.

But that was so.

Yeah.

And it. I just kind of. I took all the pills, you know, I. I did. I went to doctors, and no one had a solution for me. Everyone was just like, yeah, this is. You know, here's some more pills to, like, you know, close off the acid or whatever it was. And, yeah, it was around the time of 2016. I had gone through a breakup. It was. That was like, my dark night of the soul. It was when everything in my life felt like it was all breaking apart. Everything was being held up and the breakup just kind of started the fall of the dominoes in my personal life, in my work, and it all just kind of collapsed. And it was all being held up by me going, as long as my business is successful, I'm okay. As long as financially I'm okay, then I'm okay. And I didn't realize how big that was. So, yeah, I'm on stage and I'm giving this talk about performance, and I, I, I realized if I didn't sit down, I was going to pass out. If I, if I just keep standing, the pain was so I was starting to blackout. I literally was starting to see stars. And I'm like, okay, I need to sit down. Fortunately, they let me. They just thought that it was like a gimmick. But it was until it was after that that I started going to more therapy work. Three months into therapy work, my ulcers were gone. At no point did I ever talk about it with my therapist. I just didn't mention it. I had dealt with this for years for, like, probably seven, eight years. Three months into going to therapist and just working through it, just gone. Because I could breathe again.

What was the pressure that was released? What was the anxiety trying to protect you from? Because I think anxiety and depression are just signalers. They're guardians of growth, if you will. So we, we are not an anxious person. We're just experiencing anxiety. You know, to use nlp, it's not just word salad, it's real. We're not a depressed person. We're just happening in a moment to experience depression.

Yeah.

So what, what was the gift from the anxiety? In other words, what was the gift from the ulcers?

Hmm. I love that the gift from the ulcers was self forgiveness. I think that that was one of the hardest pieces. You know, we talk about self love a lot, but think about it. Like, I didn't understand, I couldn't understand self love. I could barely understand love in general. Yeah, because like, it's like saying, oh, like, go love yourself. Go love yourself. It's like, well, how about we like ourselves first? I couldn't even get there. Like, how about you just be okay with yourself? How about you could sit in front of a mirror for 10 minutes and look at yourself until you go, right, this is who I am. Not from a place of, like, forcing myself. Oh, I love this part about me. I love this part about me. Because love is not forced like that. It has to start from just being neutral and owning. So I think the Hardest part, starting with, was looking at, okay, taking total ownership. We're talking about ownership. Taking total ownership of this is my journey so far. The good, the bad, whatever label I want to put onto it. This is who I am and this is who I was, and this is who I will be. And it's a self narrative. So the self forgiveness really comes from, where have I been that I've judged myself for being imperfect? Can I forgive that? And sometimes the things are so silly because you start noticing the inner dialogue that comes up. It's like, I forgive myself for not knowing every possible answer that I'm going to get on this quiz or this test or this interview, or not knowing everything everyone will ask me from. But we don't realize how often we have that narrative. So even something like that was just going, okay, I forgive myself for not getting into a better school. I forgive myself for not getting a better job. And it sounds kind of silly because you're just sitting there kind of like, thinking about these things. But I didn't realize I had held so much shame, so much shame and so much guilt for how I had failed my family, because I wasn't, quote, unquote, better. That was the starting point.

How long after that did you do the experiment of brutal truth? And I want to speak this out to everyone. Was that before or after? Because you said for literally a year, you took a vow of radical honesty. You could tell only the truth. You could not hold back the truth, and you chose to go back and confess to the people you had lied to. This almost sounds like a version of Alcoholics Anonymous, like you were drunk on your own shame and you're like, hey, sorry about that. Let me go back. That's a very, like, confronting year. So it was an entire calendar year?

Yeah.

Was this after 2016? I'm assuming it was after.

No, it was actually before.

It was before.

It was before. And how did that go? I. I had come across this book called Radical Honesty by Dr. Brad Blanton. Really interesting guy. And his whole. He's a psychologist, and his whole premise is that all of our problems come from the fact that we are not honest enough. And I love that concept.

Feels true to me.

Like, we. As in, like, not always. Because he breaks down to different types of honesty. Like, when you think about honesty, we think only in, like, when I'm lying, I'm saying something that we know is not a fact, and we are saying something to conceal. But he points out that, you know, white lies, lies of omission is still A lie. When we are feeling something in a relationship with somebody. I'm with my wife and you know, I come home the other day and you know, I see that there's a mess and it bothered me because she left her stuff on the table and I have to now clean it up and I'm just feeling this resentment. But I don't want to say like that is a truth and we don't. It doesn't mean that you had to be rude and go to my wife and being like, the delivery is important. The delivery is important.

You can tell the truth and not be a jerk.

Yeah. So like we've gotten better. Like, you know, we'll make sure the timing is right and we'll do a clearing and being like this and clearings are really important because you could speak it from a self responsible way.

Yeah.

We always use I language rather than you language. So it's always so I want to do a clearing. When I saw that there was a mess, this is how I felt. And I don't want to. I'm not holding you responsible because that's not part of the agreement that we have that you have to keep everything clean in the space, blah, blah, blah. But it's just that like that day you left some stuff on my table and I felt this and. And then you choose whether or not you're releasing it. But that voicing of it is where then she can go and be like, well, thank you for speaking your truth. I'm not taking that on as that I'm supposed to do something about it because that'll be caretaking because that's the agreement we didn't make. But it could just be like, okay, I hear you. Yeah, is there anything you need from me? And then I could go, no, as a matter of fact, you can leave stuff there all the time. Because really what's underneath it is that I just felt like I wasn't cared for and that you don't think that, you know, I feel like I wasn't. My needs aren't important, that I wasn't cared for, that, you know, my priorities don't matter. And then she'll come in and she can just say, well, is that, is there anything you want to hear? Like, do you want reassurance? And I'll be like, yeah, because that's what's underneath it. It wasn't about the mess, it was about the fact that I felt uncared for, which is my own story. Yeah, right. So even that's a type of truth. So. Yeah. So for one year, I had to take this radical honesty vow. It was pretty extreme, actually. Now that I think back, I'm like, I don't know how. How easy that will be to do it now. So it was basically, there's three things I. I promised to do. One is if you ask me any question, I have to tell you the unadulterated truth. And this could be everything from, like, what's your PIN number in your bank account? PIN number? At the time I was dating someone, I just gave him my card, and I'm like, I need you to go change my pin, because I can't tell what it is.

It sounds like the movie with Jim Carrey.

It was like. It literally was like that. Yeah.

Yes.

Y pen is blue.

Wait, so you would actually give. You put. You can't put yourself in harm's way, though, to tell the truth, or can you? Did you.

I mean, I. I had really kind friends who weren't taking advantage of me.

So they knew of your experiment?

Oh, yeah, they all knew. And, like, they would ask me embarrassing questions, you know, like, they would ask about, like, the size of my body parts, like, stuff like that. Right. They'll ask me about, like, the most embarrassing experiences I ever had just because they want to mess with me. But, like, no one meant any malice.

Were you dating your wife at the time?

No, this is somebody else.

Okay, cool. So when she asked you, does this dress make me look fat?

And you said, yes, I would say, in my opinion, I think so.

So in a whole year of real spiritual work, of telling the truth, of going back and. And making amends, and of not. Not withholding. What was the hardest experience in that whole year?

Oh, the hardest one was telling my parents, telling all the stuff I lied to them about when I was in high school, because at that point, I was moving out. Right. Like, we had talked for a while, and so one day I had to, like, go basically to my parents, and I'm like, okay, mom, dad, I'm doing this thing. And they. I think they understood, and I'm like, so I have some things to share. Some of it was really easy. Some of it was like, okay, so, like, in grade 10, you know, I, you know, you found a pack of cigarettes. Those were actually mine. They weren't my friends that I was just holding for them, and they were, like, off to. Obviously, like, we knew. We knew. Yeah. There were times or I mentioned, oh, I snuck out at this time, and I, you know, like, changed my report card grades when I gave it to you. So that you would, you know, you wouldn't get mad at me. But there was also some other moments that I think was really tough. Like when I was in college, like, I went through a time where I took some antidepressants. You know, I was just going through a hard time. And my dad was so relieved because he was like, I didn't know. Like, I was so worried, and I didn't know how to talk to you about it. And looking back, I'm like, I can imagine being a father, like, you find. He found out. He found. He found the pills. So that's what happened. He found the pills in my drawer, but he didn't know what to say. And I didn't have the vocabulary to share with him what I was going through. We just didn't have that kind of relationship. And I think there was a part of him that was a little relieved. I was like, okay, now I know. I was like, yeah, I was going through a hard time. I saw my counselor at school. They gave me some pills. It got me through those times. And there were a lot of conversations like that. There were also conversations when you put your relationship on the line. You know, I was talking to my best friends at the time, and a lot of times it was just like, coming clean with, oh, this is how I generally feel. You know, there was this time back in the time, you know, years ago when you said this, and I always held onto that, and I was always a little resentful, or, I. I'm jealous of you about this. You know, I. I've always been jealous of you about this. And I felt like, you got this position or you got this job, and I. I was jealous, and I didn't think you deserved it. And then that brought up a lot of other things, because then they're like. Because magical thing happens when you start being honest with people. One of two things. I had two experiences. Either they nod and smiled and were like, oh, yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, sure. Okay. And like, they just kind of vanished from your life. You just don't get called again. Yeah. Which is, you know, fear. But my fear was always like, if I can't have a genuine relation with that person, then I never had a relationship with that person anyway. And then the other type is you're like, you know, I. I always thought you were kind of a jerk when you did this. And they're like, well, I thought you were kind of a jerk in general. And then they can now be honest with you.

Yeah.

And we will have these, like, epic long conversation until 3 in the morning. And we're just going through everything. We're like, oh, my God. And they would be like, you. You were jealous of me when I was going through that. I was jealous of you. I thought you had it going. I thought you knew what you were doing. I was like, I don't know what I'm talking about, dude. I had no idea what I'm doing. I don't know what I'm doing now.

I love the magic of this. I've never even had the courage summoned to do a year of truth. But I can only imagine the Radio Flyer filled with concrete that would be cut off. I mean, because we're all, like. We're all lugging it around. And I've said this a few times on the podcast. I haven't said it in a while, though, and it's. It's really like, the undercurrent of my life. We're only as liberated as our darkest secrets. And secrets could be one of the three that you practiced unraveling.

Yeah.

So if I'm like. For example, if you asked me, like, josh, do you really like my shirt? I'd be like, yeah, I really like it. But if you had, like, you know, a Pokemon on there, I'd be like, no, not really.

Yeah.

And then we at least get to know each other.

Yeah.

And then if I'm going back into my past and I'm sensing that there's a relationship that. That's really been dampened by either my withhold or my lack of truth, man. The realness and the palpable aliveness that can be felt from relationships like that. But it takes the hero. I mean, really, it's being heroic, and it's not to just put you as a label and create a victim triangle and a perpetrator and a savior. Like, we've all been down that road, too. But it is very heroic to tell the truth. And what do you think it is about the human condition that blocks us from telling the truth? Obviously, it's some form of fear, Right. Fear of rejection in some sort. But what do you really believe it is?

I think that the fear is that if I can keep up this illusion of who others see me as, then one day I'll come to believe in myself. If I can convince you to like me, then I'll like me. If I can convince you that you think that I'm important, then I'll think I'm important.

Yeah.

And this is something that. This is a level of truth that I didn't get to. Until later on in that experiment and later on in my life really was like, I never want to go into a relationship where I'm trying to impress somebody. If I'm feeling like I'm trying to impress you. If I'm trying to. If I'm trying to sell you a version of me, that relationship is poisoned. And if I'm in a conversation with someone and they're trying to sell a version of them, that relationship is poisoned. Because I'll never now get to have the pleasure of connecting with who they truly are.

Yeah.

And I still do it sometimes. I'll be fully honest. I'm not perfect at it. No one is. I'm like. I still have moments where I'm like, oh, that person is so cool. And like, I need to tell them about all the things I've done and I've, you know, built this business. Yeah, look at my super successful, I'm gone books, seven figure, blah, blah, whatever, these things. And then I have to catch myself to go, whoa, why? And it always comes from. Because my fear is that if they knew who I truly am, then they wouldn't like me. But here's the catch. That's true. They might not. It's just called misalignment of values. I have certain beliefs and values. They're not going to match with everyone. And my goal these days is not to try to get as many people to like me, but to try to get as many of the people of my people to like me. And the only way to do that is to just let it all come out.

How much of the dating world would be completely transformed if you just happened to write a dating book about this?

Oh, my God.

Think about how many relationships. And of course, you know, I'm asking about your wife next. Think about how many relationships start where we're both holding up masks. Our biceps are pounding with blood because the mask is so heavy.

Oh, my God.

And then three years, five years down the line, whatever, after the honeymoon period, after the chemicals have left the building, we finally take off the mask, and we look at each other and we go, hey, I love you. Do you love me? Yeah, sorry, that wasn't really me, but I loved you through the mask. And here I am without the mask. How potent and healing that can be. That's actually part of epigenetic healing. That's actually part of healing generational trauma. Because the very same mask that our parents wore for their friends and for us as parents. Yeah, they were exhausting for them, too.

Yeah.

But how do you see this play out in the relationship world? Like, did you ever learn the hard way when you wore a mask, what would happen?

Oh, for years. For years. I mean, very early on, I was, you know, I was obsessed with all dating advice. Right. And it was all about, like, what do you say? And how do you dress?

Oh, you went to, like, the world, Neil Strauss.

Oh, gosh.

Yeah. Did you read the game?

Actually, I had a business partner. We started a brand called enlightened seduction. Oh, God, I can't. I can't think of that right now and be like, a little spirit of truth. He was sharing. It was in the book. His name was Dan, and he was in the book of the game, and we were in that group together. So, yeah, like, I knew Neil. I was friends with, like, cliffs of cliffs list. And, you know, my first business was, like, really at one of Eben. You know, his name is double your dating. Double your dating. That's it. One of his events. That was my first business.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I was in that world, which I look back now, and I will, like, in the full spirit of transparency. I. I feel some shame and judgment to myself in that time, and I think this is part of the forgiveness, because I look at myself and I go, oh, man, he was so desperate for love.

Yeah.

I was so desperate for love. And it wasn't even love for women. I was just desperate for love of anyone. It wasn't even about the woman. It was about the men and being accepted and belonging. And what I thought was, oh, these guys are so cool. They're all players, and, you know, they could get any woman they want. And, like, women became a currency.

Yeah.

That defined the men's value, and therefore, I wanted to be part of that. That economics. And I look back now, and I feel a lot of shame that that's how I viewed it. And, you know, I. So to answer your question, how do I think dating. Absolutely, 100%. I think that if we were like, I understand the need to, you know, start easy. Right. You don't want to start off being like, here are all of my weird quirks and let me start with my traumas.

That's a red flag in itself. Like, hey, I've known you for an hour, and, you know, my entire life story. An hour. Yeah, you can. I've been on dates like that in the past where it was just like, I know everything about you. Like, can you take a breath?

Yeah.

Like, it's coming from an insecurity, which really is actually them being vulnerable. But if it's not aligned with you in that time, then I can see why that wouldn't be a match.

Yeah. My wife and I are. Our first real official date was almost a little like that. It was kind of a funny thing. Well, my wife and I had known each other for three years beforehand. We're already friends. So, like, pretext and context, we understood.

That that can really help.

Yeah.

When you're someone's friend first. Yeah.

So we had that kind of set up. But, yeah, our first date was like, let's just open it up. Like, you know, we. We went to a cat cafe because she loves cats, and I took her to a cat cafe. And were they.

What do you mean? Like, where you get to pet cats and drink coffee?

Literally, that's exactly what.

I didn't even know those existed.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, it's a whole. Whole thing. I think we were in Japan and, like, we went to them, and there. There was so much fun. So this is the thing. You go to a cafe, there's just cats roaming around. They come up, and if they want to hang out with you, get a pet them and, you know, you drink coffee. And my. My wife, you know, loves cats. So I was like, let's go to a cat cafe. And she asked me at one point. Actually, no, no, I asked her. I asked her at one point. I was like, hey, I just want to check. Because, like, we were kind of scheduling. I was like, let's go hang out. And I just want to check, is this a date? And then she looked back at me, and she kind of threw it back at me. And she's like, do you want it to be a date? And I think that was my moment of ownership. This is where the radical honesty comes in. Was like, yeah. I was like, yeah, I wanted to be a date. I really like you. I don't know whether or not you feel the same way about me, but I'd rather be clear and honest about what I want out of the relationship. And then for you to decide whether or not it's a fit for you, I'd rather go. I'm going to risk our friendship because that's not what I feel about you anyway. I don't feel and see you as a friend. I find you attractive. I really like you. I have feelings for you. So I want this to be a date. I want to try this out as a relationship, and if it doesn't work out, great. But then I don't want a friendship with you because I don't think I could do that.

I love this.

So that was how that started. And then afterwards.

That was your first date.

That was our first date.

See, that, to me, is the everything opposite of the Notebook. The Notebook movie where they cheat and there's all this drama. Oh, my God, the Notebook is so glorified. It's like that. And 50 Shades of Grey is like, what lights up so many women. And I'm just like, we're on the wrong path here, y'.

All.

Like, your cat cafe moment of truth is so much more real. So much more, like, open and relaxing and goes completely opposite of the game. And Neil Strauss and Eben Pagan, like, complete opposite of that. Do you ever find that there is a way to consciously understand some of. Not all, some of the work of pickup culture where maybe you could use it in an integrous way? Or do you think it's all just hogwash?

I think that the truth behind what is, you know, pickup culture, or whatever it is, is that really, it's allowing yourself to trust that you can be masculine. There's a. There's a part where many. I think many men have been conditioned to believe that masculinity equals toxic masculinity.

Oh, yeah.

And I'm like, no. Like, their masculinity can in and of itself be a really positive shining light. In fact, the whole basis of masculinity is about service and. And mission and leadership and self ownership and all these really powerful things. We talk about, you know, men's work a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah. And so I think that when I look back, that was a journey I had to go through to learn, but there was just also so much of the other unlearning that I also had to go through that. I look back now, I'm like, I wish we. I could have just skipped all that and somebody could just start and be like, yeah, you know what you say? What is a. You know what is the line you say? You say that you go in and be like, hey, I just want to say I find you really attractive. I want to go on a date with you. And if it's not a fit, like, I get it. I don't want to fake a platonic relationship that's not really there. Yeah, I'm going to go back on my journey. But if you want to come, like, this is my mission. This is my adventure. If you want to join me on this adventure, I'd be stoked. I think it'll be great. And if not, I understand.

See, with the confidence it takes. How old Were you then when I.

When you on a date?

When the Cat Cafe.

Oh, 34. Okay. Yeah.

You're along the way. But depending on the level of conditioning, since we're talking about conditioning, depending on the level of conditioning that we've had maybe through past relationships. I think men, we fear the flinch, the flinch of rejection, the flinch of not being enough. So you felt no flinch with her at all?

I think there's always a flinch. But the difference between the flinch of rejection not being enough is are you making the other person's answer of you your version of you. You?

Yes.

So it comes. Still comes back down to like, do you actually like you? Are you okay with you? Because if you're okay with you, then somebody else not being okay with you won't change the fact that you're okay with you. And that was where that flinch to me is about. Right. Like, of course we don't. Nobody likes rejection. But there's a big difference between, if I reject you, I'm going to take that and I'm going to make that mean that all women are rejecting me. I'm not good enough. And that's where you see a lot of this, like, incel anger that, that I think that we see online, this toxicity where like, you know, like this like fake nice guyness or, you know, and the same thing, by the. By the way, it's not gender. It's not gender specific. We. I've seen just as many of the quote unquote nice girls where it's like, I'm gonna placate. I'm gonna. People, please. I'm gonna give, give, give, give, give. Because it's always transactional. Right? Who is this? That. I think Connor Beaton talks about this and there's a few other authors. It's like it's a hidden contract. And the hidden contract is if I play this role in this character, then you're supposed to like it. And if you don't like it, then the contract is broken and it's your fault. And what I mean by that is that a guy would be really, like, kind of fake nice and be like, yeah, I'll do this for you. Like, I'll come pick you up. Yeah, I'll buy you things. And then it's like when they lean in for the kiss and the, you know, the woman or the girl is like, I'm not feeling this yet. Like, I'm not ready. They immediately get angry because they take it personally. As if their sense of comfort, you know, the, the woman's sense of comfort is a rejection of who they are.

Oh, this is so good. I had no idea we were going to go into this. But it's actually completely about breaking barriers.

100.

Like, if you're going to be unapologetic about which the title of your book. Right. Unapologetic Guide for Breaking Barriers to Leadership and Success. Success means mental, emotional, physical, spiritual, financial, relational. It's one and the same, all of it. So I can only imagine, like, God, if I would have read your book when I was in my late 20s instead of the game. Because I read the game. I was living in Pacific beach and I was womanizing and I was like, I look back on that. I've done a lot of work, like you to just really feel into the layers of shame. And actually, sometimes in psychedelic Journeys, I've really made amends to the women because there's no way for me to contact them again. Right. I would if I could.

Yeah.

And so I can see this rippling out, this, this breaking of barriers. Really what it comes down to is there's some core aspects of self.

Yeah.

That get to be nourished.

Yeah.

And they get to come online that I see right now on social media being completely under attack. When you look at the younger generation, and I mean, like, early 20s, late teens.

Yeah.

They're mainly on their phone 24 7. And they, they actually communicate on the phone and they don't call each other. Like, if somebody called them, they'd be like, why are you calling me? You know, like, the analog life is dead for that generation.

Yeah.

Man. I wonder how we turn the tide on this. Like, yes, it's important to break generational trauma, that parents become more loving, more present parents. But. Yes. And how do you think that some of your frameworks apply to this younger generation that are literally living and breathing on their phone and have lost the art of what you, you and I are doing.

Oh.

Which is conversation and being vulnerable and finding the truth. They've lost it.

They've lost their way completely. One, one of the things that, one of the things I, I heard about from some of my younger clients is they tell me, I'm like, I, I, I can't imagine dating in that world now. Because they're like, one of the things that happens is ghosting. They're like, people don't break up anymore. They just ghost. And like, as it, like you're texting, it's the worst. Right. Like, you're texting. Like, they don't date anymore. They just, like, talk like, oh, we're talking, like, chatting, and then, like, you go on dates, things are happening. They're dating multiple people, both sides. And then, like, when they're done, they just drop you. And I think where that comes from is we think that's about a fear of, like, oh, I don't want to hurt their feelings, or I just want to. But the truth is that we just. They, like, they just never got to learn that it's okay.

Yeah.

To face and confront it. A lot of the exercises and, you know, parts of what we do in the exercise in the book is really very simple, is you take the thing that you were afraid of because when you were younger, you were conditioned to fear it, and you find a safe and easily managed way to confront that fear into what, you know, therapists calls a corrective experience. And you go, oh, it's not that bad. And this drops the anxiety of the unknown. So let's say that the fear is dating, right? That I don't want to. I don't want to say no or reject somebody because they might, you know, get angry at me. They might become upset with me. Is the awareness of that they might. And they're allowed to have their experience. And I don't know how to take that on. I don't have to make their disappointment my responsibility. I could compassionately be like, hey, I'm good. This, you know, I. You know, I really enjoyed our time together. But, yeah, I just don't feel like this makes sense for us moving forward. I just don't feel that way about you anymore. Wish you all the best and accept that the other person may have disappointment, but it's not yours to carry. And there's this anxiety and the fear of confronting that feeling that I think, why the problem is, is that we imagine it to be bigger than what it is because we're not used to facing it and going, okay, that was not bad. Most of the things we're afraid of are not as big of a deal as what we think it really is. That includes rejection. That includes failure.

That includes speaking on stage as well.

Includes speaking on stage, for sure. All of the things. We have these things, dude, I've had so many times where I look back on a video of me speaking on stage, and I'm like, oh, my God, what was I doing? And you know what? It was fine. You just get better and better.

You gotta get the reps in.

You just get the reps in. Yeah, it's fine. You're not gonna be perfect.

You're not supposed to Be perfect man. Okay, so, so to go back to some of the book because I can't let you go unless we go into this layer. You know we've heard about the glass ceiling, right? Gay Hendricks talked about this. I've interviewed Gay and Katie on the podcast and he wrote a book called the Big Leap. And essentially it's about the glass ceiling that, that actually we create or we learn to create through conditioning. But yours is really cool. You call it the bamboo ceiling.

So. The bamboo ceiling. I didn't, I didn't coin that term. I'm borrowing that term.

Well, okay.

It's the first time I've heard it.

I'm learning it through you.

And all wisdom is borrowed, so I just want to make sure. But yeah, so the bamboo ceiling was originally coined by an author named Jane Hun and she talked about it from a corporate space basically. Is that like if you take a look at companies where there's lots of Asian and Asian American employees like in tech or law or finance, you know, these are like very Asian dominated fields, right. But what's strange is that they could be overrepresented in the middle levels but you know, underrepresented like less than 2 point something percent sometimes in the leadership levels, in executive leadership or like C level leadership or you know, any, any kind of higher level leadership levels. And of course I will say that this is a complex subject because I can't say that there isn't a discriminatory factor involved in it. The reality is, is that like of course for a long time when people thought of Asians, they existed in a very stereotype bubble, right? It's like they're good at math, you know, they're quiet but not, you know, outspoken. Because there's a cultural part of this that like the way that we speak up, the way that we view confidence doesn't always look different, the same. In fact we find that it's, it's, you know, North America has a very particular way of looking at confidence. I've got some studies in there that's really interesting of like how like Americans would draw, like they give children like crayons to draw themselves in relationship to other people. And they found that like American children would draw themselves extra large compared to other people around, especially if they live in Texas when they're drawing them, their family members, right. And it's just our self perception, right? So the more individualistic culture, the more likely that's going to happen. So I will say this, there is most likely still a discriminatory factor that exists from racial stereotyping, etc. And at the same time, I think that then how do we overcome it? Because at the end of the day, I'm like, I don't want to just be like, okay, there's racial discrimination happening and like, that's it. We just gotta wait for someone to come rescue us. It's like, no, we have to speak up for ourselves. We have to self advocate, and we have to also accept that self advocating doesn't have to look the same way as everyone else does. Like, the way that we speak up for ourselves doesn't have. Like, if you're not comfortable because just genuinely who you are, you're just not a very loud, outgoing, domineering person. This is not a book that teaches you how to be more loud and domineering. This is a book that teaches you, okay, if you can be more yourself and be seen, what is the path to get there? And then there's a whole section about, like, strategic visibility and, you know, compassionate assertiveness. That's more strategic. That's for like the people who, like, there's some. There's going to be some people in the audience who are like, okay, dude, I don't care about the inner work stuff. I just want to learn how to get paid more. Great. I have a whole section just for you. Here are scripts of what to say to sound more confident.

But the key to all this stuff, and I'll quote you from the book, you said, find what you've been taught to hide away. Yes, because that's the block that creates the ceiling, whether it's glass or bamboo.

Absolutely.

Find it. And when you find it, you'll realize that maybe you yourself didn't consciously hide it away. Maybe it was actually 100% unconscious hiding.

Yeah, there's. There's the internal ceiling and then there's the external ceiling. But you can't break through the external without first breaking through the internal.

Talk about that. What do you mean by there's two ceilings?

Yeah, so this is what we're talking about. They're like the first part when I said, is there such a thing as, like, racial stereotyping? Of course that's just reality. We, we live in a world. Like, I, I don't think that we can ever pretend like we're just not there yet. As, as a collective consciousness. We're not so evolved that discrimination doesn't happen. Of course it happens. Sure. But how do we break through that without us being confronting where we are still holding ourselves back? Like, yes, there's the external, there's people outside of the world who might want to hold you back. But first and foremost, are we making sure we're not holding ourselves back? Are we making sure we're not self diminishing in the way we communicate? Are we making sure that we're not self rejecting? What I mean by that is like when there's an opportunity, are you raising your hand when you're like, you know what, I'm ready, I'm ready to claim this, or are you still kind of sitting there going, like, when I'm ready, somebody would tap me on the shoulder. Like, somebody will let me know when I'm ready. And the truth is no one is going to let you know. No one's coming to save you. No one is coming to recognize you until you're ready to recognize yourself. And if you're going to keep waiting to be like, I'm waiting to self validate when somebody else tells me I'm good enough, then I'll believe I'm good enough. You're going to be waiting forever because no, the truth is, if you believe that you're not good enough, I can line up 30 people today in your life, each of whom telling you all the things they find most attractive, most interesting, most talented, most special about you. And you will feel good for five minutes and then one person coming and being like, you're amazing. Your shirt is okay. And that would ruin your day. And that is where we got to take a look at. Well, where are you holding that belief and how do we dismantle that?

This is ceiling one.

This is the first. That's the internal ceiling. Because otherwise if you don't break that, then no amount of external things going to change you.

What's the ceiling number two?

So we actually, in a, in the book, there's a table, there's a graphic, and imagine that there's like a target. So there's three layers of conditioning that we take a look at. The first layer of conditioning is familial conditioning. Familial conditioning is all the stories that we learned as a child, you know, who we're supposed to be. These are might be like. And these are sometimes familial roles. Like you might be the smart one in the family. So you're like, okay, I'm the smart one. And that's tough because it sounds good. Until you realize that that means that when you're the smart one, that anytime that you are not showing and performing and demonstrating how smart you are, then your life comes crashing down. Because you're nothing. And I've met so many people. Like, I do this exercise with my. With my workshops where I get people to write down I am statements where, like, I am, and then write down every I am statement that, that you feel connected to. I am smart, I am hardworking, I am all these things. And then we start finding places where. Which one are you most attached to? Like, which are the ones that if somebody came and said they are smarter and you don't think that's the case, you're going to feel a little bit of like. Like, anger. Or somebody is like, I don't think you're very smart. And you're like, oh, like there's something. Right. Some things you may be neutral about. Right. Like my hair. Somebody comes to me and be like, I don't like your hair. And I'll be like, oh, sorry, I like it. My wife likes it. That's all that matters. But there are some things maybe somebody comes up to you being like, I don't see you as a very good leader.

That would sting.

Yeah. Because the story is, if I'm not smart, if I'm not a good leader, then I don't deserve love. So that's the first layer. And then we break it out to cultural conditioning. These are the conditions that we picked up from our environment, from the people around us, from our society. You have to be humble. And if you talk about yourself in a positive way, then you're being bad. You have to always be respectful of your elders. And so therefore, if you're at your, you know, work and somebody who's on your team or even works for you, who's older than you, disagrees with you, then you can't tell them off, or you can't correct them and think about how much that will hurt your career path. Right? So that's. That's cultural conditioning. And then on the third layer is social conditioning. And that's how we experience the outside world. And this is. This could be any number of things that we picked out. This could be this, the code switching. This could be the feeling of being a perpetual foreigner. You know, all of these stories that we can take on over time.

Man, this is so powerful. I. I have no. For confidentiality. Obviously, I'm not going to share his name, but I had a guy, a friend, that came by the studio a few weeks ago, and he sat right in that chair, and he's like, I want to launch a podcast and I want to do it. And I was like, so why aren't you doing it? He's like, well, I don't know what technology to use. And I'm like, I know, I know what's going on. Yeah.

Yeah.

So when we really broke down to it, I did an inner child exercise with him, and I allowed him to access that part of himself that always felt like a foreigner. Oh, he always felt like a foreigner. And I was like, great, let's go into that. And then I did a specific process that we don't have time to talk about now, but he went back in. His specific ages of memories of pain were 15 and 7. And in those beliefs that were created in 15 and 7, I mean, a grown man that I barely know was sitting across here crying, releasing, and I was just like, this is the work, my friends. Like, I would have never thought if you'd have told me that I would be doing inner parts work with a friend who came to me for podcasting advice, I would have said, you're crazy, dude. But it's, but it's, it's real, it's palpable. It's, it's these, like you said, the three rings, like the, the societal and, and the self and the, and even schools really time schools, the expectations that are created, you know, the, the way that this really shows up for us is when an event happens, we turn that event into something that's self loathing or self deprecating, when really it was actually just an event. And that's the hard part to swallow in this whole equation is like, I, I, I feel like, and I wonder how you feel. I feel like we attach ourselves to the trauma because we really haven't worked through the stages of Hawkins Ladder on it. We're, we're essentially stuck in pride about why it happened. And when we feel anger or resentment about why something happened, then we can just sit in it and we can bathe in the anger of it. And it gives us this pseudo aliveness where we were like, validated and justified for being stuck. But what's most amazing, and really, it's like an undercurrent of your book, is when we go through pride and we get to courage and we start moving up to willingness and acceptance, anything's possible. I mean, the bamboo, the glass ceiling shatters.

Yeah.

Was there a significant event that happened for you, keyword for you in your life, where you created a meaning of that? Like, for me, I know it was, I was overweight and I remembered, like, there was one specific girl in class and she didn't like me, and she's like, you're fat. And it's like in middle school. And it took a long time for me to get over that. Like, literally. It probably drove a lot of my porn addiction. It probably drove a lot of my womanizing because I was angry that this girl told me that in middle school. Do you have an event like that for you that you've worked through where you can trace back and say, wow, at this age, this event happened and I made meaning of it that, you know, I didn't have the understanding how to not make the meaning. And it shaped my life.

I mean, I could probably rattle off a few that I processed in therapy. There are, for me, the deepest and hardest experience was always belonging to. I actually did a. Did a psychedelic journey and I realized how deep that was for me.

What type of medicine was it?

So the, the facilitators didn't tell us. Oh, I'm. I made the assumption that it's probably something in MDMA and psilocybin.

Yeah. But it seems to be an interesting combo.

Yeah.

That produces a lot of healing.

It was, it was a whole weekend. It was multi day. And the, the facilitators, they mixed based. They kind of work. They're both therapists, so they work with you a little bit, and then based on what they know about you, they create a concussion. That's for you. And for me, what was the most alive was shame and belonging. And I remember just like tapping into that experience. I don't even remember exactly what that moment was in memory, because memory, storytelling, anyway.

Yeah.

But I remember the feeling. And it started when I. Out of nowhere, I was, you know, going through the process and I just started saying the words, I'm sorry. And I just felt this immense shame. And I was just sitting there and going, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And you know, when you're like on, you know, a journey, you're on psychedelics, like, it doesn't have to make sense, but you're just following the, you know, the trail. Yeah. And I just remember feeling this sense of I'm sorry, and I'm sorry, and I'm sorry. And you know, earlier that day we had gone around and they, you know, we were doing a heat lodge, a sweat lodge kind of experience. Like, that was the first thing we enter into. And we're sat there for like two hours doing deep breathing, and then somebody passed around the facilitators, passed around a drum, and you're able to say something or sing something. And the drum came around to me and out of Nowhere. I started beating on the drum and I just started to sing the song that my mom sang to me when I was probably like three, four years old. It was a lullaby. And I just started singing. As soon as I sung the first note, I just started bawling. I couldn't stop crying because it was. It was such an unconditional love that I had felt. And what I was feeling was mourning because I also felt like it was been so long since I felt that love. And I realized that was the last time. That memory that I had of her singing that to me was the last time she sang that for me. And that was the last time I felt that unconditional sense of safety and love. So on my journey, the memory that I had was me hiding behind my couch in my. My family home's living room.

And.

I'm probably brought back a report card that wasn't great. I probably was caught reading a book that I shouldn't have been reading. Not like a bad book, but just any book that wasn't academic was like a bad book. Like TV was non academic and that was therefore bad. You know, that kind of stuff. And I just remember hiding and hearing my mom's footsteps coming up and me going like. Like, okay, gotta like be careful I don't be caught in it. And I think that when I was on the journey, I was saying I'm sorry because I felt both this massive sense of I'm sorry that I wasn't better. I'm sorry I didn't understand. But also now it's me as an adult to my own inner child. I'm sorry that I wasn't more caring because I also recognized that I was apologizing to my own inner child for not taking better care of him now that I'm an adult. And I was just. I just remember like rocking back and forth and I'm like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, sorry, I'm sorry. And I was just feeling this immense, like, deep shame over all the times that I didn't speak up for myself. You know, I remember being bullied when I was in elementary school. There was like these two kids, I didn't know how to speak English and I knocked over a block that they were playing with and they were trying to get me to kneel down in front of them to apologize. And I didn't know how to say no and I didn't want to, so I just pushed them and we all got in trouble and my mom got Mad at me and all this kind of stuff. And I wanted to say I'm sorry that I didn't. That no one stood up for you. It was just so many moments. And I think that, for me, is why it is that the work is about. Forgiveness is like, well, now we can come in and heal and heal whatever it is and stand up for whoever we are. And that's where the unapologetic nature is really. You know, it's funny, I never realized. I never connected that why unapologetic had that meaning for me until just now.

Well, for whatever reason. Thank you for sharing that. For whatever reason, I just had this vivid memory come in that I haven't felt for so long. And I was kind of fighting my tears when you were talking, actually, because there was this moment of my mom, like, she would, like, tickle my arms when I was a kid and put me to bed. And my mom has struggled with bipolar her whole life, and I just processed so much anger and grief and resentment about that, and just knowing that she was there for me then when I was so small with the flower wallpaper and La Mesa and. Yeah, see, that's what happens when somebody like you has the courage to share, our courage to share that unlocks other people's healing. Like, just me sitting in your presence gives me. He gives all of us healing. And it's this unapologeticness to go there, and I just want to tell myself and all of us just go there, Go there. Because, like, whether it's speaking on stage or being a podcast guest or anything, it's. So we make it so much harder. We think that if we go into the depths of our sadness, we think that if we go into the depths of our grief, that we'll somehow get stuck. That was a game that I played for a long time. Fear of getting stuck in the sadness. Fear of getting stuck in it or.

The meaning we make from it, if we get sad, then we're weak.

Right.

Or the stigma around, like, oh, if I do that, I'm crazy.

But the total paradox is that if you just go there.

Yeah.

It's there whether you go there or not.

Yes.

And that's literally the whole epigenetic equation here that we're talking about.

Yeah.

And so thank you for that. I'm like, okay. It moved through me. I was, like, fighting back my tears when you were talking. Right there. So then on a macro and a micro. On a macro.

Yes.

This book is really about healing. That's essentially what it is. It's Healing the mind, it's healing the soul. It's also looking back at our generations with compassion and understanding. And you said something that I absolutely loved, and I don't know if it was your quote or not, but it holds significant weight. You said compassion is the holding, the intention of understanding before seeking to be understood.

Yes. Yeah.

The weight of that, based on everything that we've already shared. Compassion is the holding of the intention of understanding before seeking to be understood. That's the spiritual warrior.

Yes.

That's what we're all looking for.

That's it. And that's the courage. You're talking about courage. I think that's the courage. The courage is to say it sounds counterintuitive because you're like, how is that related to courage?

It sounds totally counterintuitive.

Courage is compassion.

Yeah.

Like, courage is compassion. Compassion is courage. Like, there's this. I feel like there's this almost like zeitgeist pushback against compassion. Because we see compassion as being soft and weak. Yes and no. Like, compassion is the courage for us to say, I am not ready for forgiveness, but I'm going to break through that readiness to hold and see your humanity first. Every fight. How many fights have we had with our spouses? How many disagreements have we had spoken or unspoken with our friends and resentments with our bosses and the people around us? That really just comes from the fact that we're afraid of being known and we're afraid of knowing ourselves. And what I mean by that is that, like, when we are. Because we think it's about, oh, they did this, and therefore, blah, blah, blah, blah. But, like, when we hold the truth of what it is, there's a part of us that have to address that. Okay. We played a part in that. We played a part in that. We played a part in creating that dynamic, that conflict or whatever it is. Right. We're talking about the Hendrixes. A big part of it is, like, taking full ownership of every experience that we have in the fullness of it. And that's the courage I'm talking about. To get to compassion. To get to. That is not about. I'm just going to release. I'm just going to love everyone equally. It is a courageous act because we have to then start with self, compassion and in leadership.

This is big, too. And you talked about this compassionate assertiveness. Compassionate assertiveness, I used to call this. I loved it because when I read it, I thought, oh, he's talking about authoritative playfulness. To be in authority, but also to be Playful, but it's not the same. It's actually a little bit different. So it's this clear, respectful communication of your needs and boundaries with empathy towards others. It's about being honest and direct without harming other people. You can go into that.

Well, I mean assertiveness. We always see assertiveness as dominance. Right. Assertiveness is I'm going to speak my truth. And therefore we see it as very one sided. When I'm asserting myself like that, even that term asserting is I am speaking. It looks forceful, like piercing, but it really isn't because the idea behind it is that we are holding each other as equals. And like comes back to everything we talked about really all came back down to this. The radical honesty is about assertiveness. When we are speaking our full truth and taking full responsibility for what we say and who we are and accepting that, what is the response we don't have to take on and that what we say isn't about the other person. So it's a lot of like, linguistically speaking, it is taking ownership. I feel this, this is how I'm experiencing this. This is what I'm observing. And that is always held in honesty. It's very different from your doing this. You always speak like this for me. You always make a mess. You always make these judgments. That's not true. Assertiveness is saying I experienced this and this had this impact on me. And the compassion comes when we go, I could hold space and understand you in this and having that love for you as a human being without the sacrifice and going to pop.

Pleasing the assertiveness without borders is actually the opposite of empathy without borders. Right. There needs to be some structure in both empathy and I guess you could say, even say authoritativeness. I don't think authoritativeness is bad. It's just maybe a more intense form of assertiveness. So the, the, the boundaries and the structure around that and I, and Obviously it's a 300 page book. Right. I'm. I'm sure there's some definitions of assertiveness in here. Yeah. But I wonder as we wind down here for what I believe to be a phenomenal connection. I knew it was going to be anyways.

Such a blast.

The, the, the, the palpability that I feel from you is this, this empathetic, this courageousness and really the, the compassionate assertiveness. But I think maybe there's some mixture of how to hold two worlds for people that they might be struggling with. So if we could just go into maybe even an example of Your marriage or your life or just something practical where if somebody desires to be a leader and they want to be assertive, they desire to be assertive, but they also want to blend and mix the same personification of being compassionate at the same time. How might that look? Can you give an example?

Absolutely. When we are in any situation, what is assertiveness? Assertiveness is an action by definition. Compassion by definition is an intention. That is a yin and yang of it. Right. So one is action because you can't assert while doing nothing. I can't sit here being assertive. Yeah, right. Assertive is when I'm expressing something that is my true belief. And compassion is the holding of how is that going to land for the other person and having both in play. So it is essentially, I mean, it's essentially nonviolent communication language. Right? It's, it's taking a look at. And I have a bunch of different communication models in there. Like the, you know, air, which stands for like, you know, action, this, when this happened, Intention or impact. Right. Like when this happened to me. Hey, when you left me on red the other day, after I sent you a message, I felt, I felt like you didn't care about me. I sent this long message to you and you didn't respond back to me. When you left me on red, you know, I, I felt like you didn't care about me. And I. Then you make a request, right? The air, the R is like, can I ask that, you know, in the future if I send you a message, can you just let me know that you got it and if you have any thoughts, please let me know. And that's self, self assertive language. You're making a request, you're asserting a need and you're asserting who you are into the conversation rather than being passive and hiding it off either through. I'm just going to ignore it, pretend if it didn't happen, pretend it didn't bother me, or pretend that this is about something else. And at the same time you're asserting a request, but at the same time acknowledging that the other person might have whatever it is that they're going through. So that's the compassionate part piece. We're always aware of one another. And this is why I said compassionate assertiveness is actually three things. It's how we talk to ourselves. Are we speaking in a responsible leadership language to ourselves and also having compassion for ourselves? Is this the way that we speak to the people around us and is this the way that we lead in our lives and leadership is everywhere. You lead in your family, you lead in your relationship. Leadership is as simple as, this is how I feel. This is the vision I'm setting for us. I want us to succeed. I want our relationship to succeed. I want our friendship to succeed. I want a friendship to thrive. This is what it is, and I want to take action to lead us towards it. Are you on board?

How much of a letting go or releasing expectation plays into this compassionate assertiveness as well? Because one might go through. I mean, on an intellectual level, I could practice the air. Yeah, right?

Yeah.

Or I could practice the nonviolent communication. But there's a little part of myself in the back that's like, well, I expect them to respond to me with nonviolent communication, or I expect a response in the way that I. I do it. So there's got to be some healthy detachment in. In the model itself.

Absolutely. And the very basis behind this starts from your acknowledging that other people's reactions to you are not always about you. We have this thing where we love taking it up and putting it on ourselves. Right. It's like the Zen master story of, like, stop picking up the coal and holding onto it and getting mad at the hot coal. Right. Like, we take on meaning of what other people think about us, of. It's as if it's meaningful to us. I always like to say it's like your other people's opinions of me are none of my business. It's something that they hold on to for themselves based on their value systems. That doesn't mean that. It means I can just go and do whatever I want because I have my own moral and value systems. But it's that I'm not going to let that define me. Now. I would love to say that I'm practicing that all the time and nothing ever affects me. And I'm just a Zen master.

These are great models.

These are great models. But the truth is, like, yeah, it still affects me. If somebody's mad at me or something like that, it will affect me, but it just lasts longer. Sorry, it doesn't last as long as it used to. Instead of it lasting three weeks in the past where I would, like, obsess over it, now I just kind of go, okay, they're having their experience. I see that. That's the process they're needing to go through. And what part of this do I want to pick up? Oh, is there a reflection on my actions that I do agree? You know what? I'm going to look at it from their lens and yeah, that action not in alignment. I'm going to make a change. I would take ownership and I'll be like, you know what? This happened. I do take ownership of this. My wife and I have the, the funniest fights. Like, if you ever hear us having a fight, it just looks like, like, like two therapists talking to you.

That sounds like a healthy five.

It's a lot of like, okay, so there's something I want to clear. You know, the other day, you know, you left some dishes in the thing and I asked you not to, and that made me feel this way. And I'm like, you know what, you're right. I'm going to take ownership of that. Here's the context. This is what I was going through and I want, and I want to check in. Are you looking for any reassurance? Like, you matter so much to me and I, I care about you and this is what I'm going to do to change in the future. And like, that's gone. Like, we have really boring fights, but I think that's where the compassion comes from. You're asserting your own needs, but like you're still holding compassion for the other person.

See, this flies in the face. There's so many paradoxes on this podcast. This flies in the face of a lot of relationships where a man or woman or anybody, how you relate would say, well, you're just trying to change me and you need to accept the way that I am. I think that's a cop out. I actually think that's a cop out. I think that. That we live in an ocean of Instagram algorithms that will actually put us in the echo chamber of. Exactly. I've experienced this, like when I go through a fight or when I'm feeling a certain way and I might view some of the content, I notice it feeds me more of the self affirming content. Have you seen this?

Interesting. I'm not surprised.

Good for you. I'm glad you're not on ig. It's actually something, it's something that I get to look at with something that we all get to look at, which is why I'm mentioning it. My caution here is to be very aware and be very mindful of the Instagram content specifically or TikTok that we're consuming. Because it can be a self fulfilling prophecy. It can be a self fulfilling echo chamber where nonviolent communication or boring fights, healthy fights, might not be a reality because we're in an echo chamber that just validates our victimness or, or us Needing to be saved and they need to change, and I don't need to change. What. What do you make of that? I mean, is it literally just like, putting the phone down and not using it, or is it just being aware? It sounds like you don't have this issue.

Personally, I. I don't consume social media content very as much as maybe a lot of people do, and it was very intentional at a certain point. I just realized one day I was like, I. I got really addicted to smartphone use after a while, and I noticed this, that I would, like, pick up my phone, I would, like, turn it on, like, open up the apps, and then I would close it and immediately pick it back up, like, instantaneously. It's just a habit. Like, my hand will pick up my phone, and the first thing it does is go open up. Social media. I think that the problem we have with social media is that the algorithms are getting too good.

Yeah. And they're strangely good. Scary good.

Scary good. Because it can. It can measure those. Those microseconds of, like, exactly the word that is being spoken.

Yeah.

And the exact thing, like. And the exact way that you're holding that swipe.

Yep. And eye position as well. I've read.

And I didn't. I didn't know that. I didn't know how they track your eye position. That doesn't surprise me when you think about what that means. It means that it will continuously validate. I remember I was talking to a. A Gen Z who actually was a Gen Z friend, or I guess past student, past client, who I asked to come on and like, chat with me about social media. And she is like, yeah, Gen Z say, like, content that validate whatever their experiences are. That's why there's so much. I think the word is pathologizing. Like, there's so many new terms now of, like, all whatever you're feeling. Like, the feeling used to just be like, oh, okay, you're feeling a little upset, you're feeling a little anxious. But now we have identities formed around it. And then the problem we have with identity is that once we have an identity, it's hard to let go of. We just become, oh, this is just the kind of person I am, and this is my trauma or this is my whatever it is. And I don't want to diminish the reality behind it, but it's when we get so caught up and so attached to it that what we're not realizing is that we're imprisoning ourselves in that identity and that victimhood And I've experienced this a lot of people, where even my own clients, where I'm like, occasionally, you've done enough work. Like, you've done inner. I love inner work. I love all the therapy and everything like that. At a certain point, I'm like, okay, you've done enough. You need to go out there and do some stuff.

Yeah.

Like in your case of a friend and being like, okay, we could process what's underneath it. And then after that, I'm being like, okay. Hey, how are you feeling? You good? Here's a microphone. You ready to start your first podcast?

That's exactly what we did.

Beautiful.

And I had him tell his whole story, and it was amazing. And I was like, that's your episode, Triple Zero. That's the episode you start with.

Yeah.

Start with the truth.

Yeah.

Because the truth will set you free. It's such a platitude. Like, love is all there is. The truth will set you free.

The plates for a reason, but they're.

Platitudes for a reason. Because the emperor is naked. The emperor is not wearing any clothes.

Yeah.

So let's all just be honest with ourselves here. Yeah. Man, this has been so good. What do you feel like we missed? There's so much in the book. I mean, how do you cover 300 pages plus in a couple hours on a podcast, but, like, you know, emanating from your soul and maybe this is the good question, the great question, after someone has done the practices and lessons and been inspired to read the book and absorb the book, because, you know, unless we embody it, then we're just mentally masturbating. It's really about embodying what we're. You know, we gather, we apply, and then we embody.

Yeah.

So what would you. What would be your greatest dream that somebody would embody from your book?

The courage to be yourself starts from finding the thing that you most attach yourself to and letting go of it a little bit. And what I mean by that is that, like, whatever it is that makes you feel a little bit uncomfortable or scared. Like, if you're scared to tell the truth. If you're scared to tell the truth, that people will see you for who you are. If there's a little part of this that you're listening to and there's a part of this that. That you want to reject. And what that energy could feel like sometimes is either, oh, that's really interesting, or outright like, oh, no. Like, no, that's not how it works. Like, there's almost like anger Attached to it sometimes like that could be attached to an identity piece, whatever that is, go tell it to somebody and share it. Even if the thing you share is, look at this guy John, he's such an idiot. And a. And blah, blah. I don't care. I don't. I don't care. It's not my. It's not about me, me. But go share it. Because the intention behind sharing and letting that part be seen is the start of the conversation. Fear can't exist in light. So much of our inner struggles cannot exist when we are sharing it. It's the connection. This here talking things through, experiencing sharing elements of this. This is the real answer. We talk so much about individualistic versus collectivist identities, but really at the core of it, I'm like, it's both. We are both letting your individual identity be seen in a collectivist context is where the power of humanity comes in.

So mic drop, bro. Thank you for being my guest coming to Austin. Tell people where they can buy the book. I assume it's on Amazon.

It's on Amazon. It's a bar and nobles anywhere. Any retailers, any online retailers. This. Go check out. Go Amazon, search for Big Asian Energy or go to bigagen energy.com and you'll find a copy there. We're also dropping a bunch of pre release, promotional free downloads for anyone who's getting this before the book comes out.

What kind of downloads?

We have cheat sheets for the seven patterns and identifying where they are and how do you overcome them. We have some swipe files for how to speak more assertively because I think this is true. We need modeling. And if you've never had other people around you show you what speaking up for yourself without sounding like, you know, a jerk, so to speak. Looks like we have some models of that. That's a big one. Downloadable, things like that. I just want people to learn to find their voice. If you haven't yet, that's it.

Well, thank you for being such a learner out loud in public and sharing in the way you do, man. You're a great speaker. It's been a joy to get to know you. I look forward to our future hangouts in Mexico and Costa Rica.

Yeah, let's do it.

So cool y' all share this podcast with somebody that is wanting, desiring so badly to be unapologetic, but they're struggling so deeply to do so. Gosh, there's so many nuggets in here. But one that really hit me the most was when you had shared that story about your mom and just receiving the unconditional love. Because at the bottom of all of John's work, it's really about if you're going to be unapologetic, then you get to go through all the things that you're holding onto that you get to say sorry for, that you get to admit are actually there. Not from a place of shame, from a place of true ownership. So until we see you again, I'm wishing you love, wellness, but most importantly, peace, which is so much of what we talked about. And power. But the paradox is that power only comes from peace. So share this podcast. We'll see you next week.