Jeff Sanders | Productivity Formula: The Health Price Paid For Exhaustion | Wellness Force #Podcast

So my biggest kind of lesson after all of this was how do I live a life where the things that matter get done and then I stop and the day is over. I allow myself the chance to breathe.

Jeff, welcome back to Wellness Force.

Thank you, Josh. I'm excited to be here today.

Me too. You know, this is cool. Most people just know your voice, but now they get to see your voice, which is really awesome because you're here.

It's always a fun experience.

Yeah, I love that they can see the man behind the microphone, which is really cool. And I was excited for this and I've been excited for this for a couple months. I actually got a sinus infection, which I've been honest with my community about. And you and I have shared similar struggles around sinuses. And I was talking before we recorded and I was thinking about what is the barometer that we all have for stress? Everybody's got a different indicator for like, how full they are on stress and how that relates to our productivity. So it's really fascinating to me, man. For maybe let's start here for people that don't know you, maybe they haven't heard you. On our previous episode 169, where we talked about your book, the Free Time Formula. If they don't know you, Jeff, just give them like a couple sentences, maybe a short paragraph of who you are, and then we'll dive into all the other things I mentioned.

Well, in a nutshell, my business, my life has been focused on productivity, healthy habits and personal developments. And so I have a podcast called the 5am Miracle. I have a book with the same title, second book, you just mentioned, the Free Time Formula. And so basically what I do is I coach people, speak, create online courses, all kinds of content around basically trying to figure out how to optimize our time. That's been my primary objective. And then I interweave other themes through that as well. But time management kind of is the core of what I do.

It's funny because some people say time is an illusion. It's a man made thing. And I'm like, well, try to tell that to your boss, you know, or try to try to tell people that like you'll meet them there at six and you say, oh, time doesn't exist. Sorry, I'm an hour late. We all deal with this. We all deal with productivity and really the cost of the modern world. I feel like, Jeff, we all just need a massive deep breath. And you yourself have had unique struggles around how to actually put all these places and things and people into your schedule, but you do a really good job when you teach others how to do the same. It's interesting because when I very first started podcasting, I was like, what do I do, what order do I do it in and how do I learn and how do I grow as fast as possible? And I think that's not only the entrepreneur's dilemma. I also feel like it's just the human being, the parent, the intrapreneur, just the human being learning curve there. When did you actually in your life first start leaning into productivity and really being interested in getting things done? How did that occur for you? It's not something that I think people wake up one day and go, I'm going to be a productivity expert, I'm going to teach other people how to do that. Is it because of your own struggles or was it more pleasure that pulled you rather than pain?

There were a couple of kind of eye opening events, I guess that happened for me. The first one, I think took place in college when I was trying to figure out how to organize my schedule. Because college for me was the first time I was ever really on my own and had to figure out when do I go to class, when do I study, when do I sleep? And I didn't have a parent to tell me what to do. And so it was on me to figure that out. And so my schedule became really important to me and I started this weird habit that I don't do today, thank God, because it was a bad idea of recording every single thing I did every day. I was really detailed in writing down past tense. Here's what today was. Hour by hour. Here's what I did. And I had this really detailed calendar that looking back at, it was a lot of wasted time just keeping track of data. But it was showing me that I was really interested in figuring out, like, what did I do today? Was it effective? How can tomorrow be better? And I took that into life after college. And one of the jobs that I had was the registrar of a career college, which is a random job I fell into. What it basically is, is a glorified administrative person who is in charge of an amazing amount of paperwork and details and data. And I was forced to be organized to do that job. And it was a very fast paced, difficult job. And I ended up excelling in it because I learned the skills, applied them and, and realized I'm really good at this and I really enjoy being productive. It's fun to get things done and check boxes and I wanted to learn more about it. And that's for me, what then led to blogging about it, coaching people about it, eventually podcasting about it, because I wanted to share these lessons of not just time management, but how do you focus better? How do you get more value from the time that you have? How can your day finish with this, like, sense of accomplishment as opposed to this sense of exhaustion? And for me, that became this really just interesting topic. I wanted to dig into more, and I've been doing it for over a decade now.

I don't know if it was in Cal Newport's book, but I remember reading about the dopamine and serotonin release that happens when we tick boxes.

Oh, yeah, it's real, it's real, it's real.

Maybe you could talk a little bit about that because I feel like this is gearing us towards the bulk of our conversation of, like, this price that we pay for being productive. We can become, Jeff, if we're not aware, like victims to our brain, to our ancient brain, to our limbic system, to the reward circuitry that we're constantly seeking novelty. Right? We're novelty seeking beings. What is it about our psyche and especially in your work and all your research that you found when it comes to the dopamine, serotonin element of, quote, getting things done, ticking all the boxes, what is that about us that drives us so deeply to tick boxes and to get things done? And how can that be sometimes deleterious to us actually getting things done?

Well, I think to a certain degree, we're all seeking meaning in our lives. And it plays into this idea that we want to know that our lives have value and something is happening. And I feel like the one way to prove that to ourselves is to check a box. And it's kind of this, you know, very like, tangent thing. It's like a physical thing in front of us. If you use a physical planner or even a digital app, if you do something that confirms that, like, I'm doing something worthy today. I matter today. This is important. I'm. I'm doing something of value in the world. Even just personally doesn't matter. You want that sense that, like, my life matters. And I feel like that's what productivity is, is confirmation that my time is well spent. And so the dopamine hit is your brain saying, like, hey, I want more of that. I want to feel like we're going somewhere today. We're making forward progress today. And those checks you make on a to do list is just more of that momentum and that snowball Effect to build you up to do more, which of course then plays into doing more, which is exactly the problem that we all find ourselves in is that that can't be the end game. Checking more boxes is not the point. Right? Dopamine hits is not the point. It's just an effect that our brain has and we need to recognize that and work to the advantage of saying, well, let's do things that matter, but we have to stop at some point. We can't let this train ride just continue forever. So for me, that's always the biggest challenge is managing for myself and for those I work with, is figuring out how do you have that sense of accomplishment and meaning with your work? But let's do so in a balanced way and a healthy way and a productive way, long term, but also a way that is going to allow you to do this sustainably for as long as you can.

One thing that I felt, and I'm curious how you feel about this, is so many of us, we will know we have this massive, let's say it's a book to Write or an 8 hour podcast preparation where I'm diving into someone's psyche to pull out the best questions possible. Like for me, sometimes those aren't as dopamine and serotonin rewarding. And so I will find myself cleaning the bathroom sink or doing all these other activities that tick my boxes. But the big thing that I really want to do, and I think I've heard Steven Pressfield talk about this, and he has this metaphor of resistance. You know, it's the resistance.

Oh yeah.

So what is that exactly? And how do we become more friends with that? How do we love that part of ourselves to where we're not going into a shame spiral, beating ourselves up for doing all these other micro tasks when really I think we're scared or possibly we're addicted to the micro instead of loving the macro.

So I have this phrase I call clean house syndrome, where I clean my house instead of doing anything else that's important to my life.

Yeah.

And so one indication for me of if today was valuable is how clean my house is. If my house is spotless. Today was a waste of a day. Like, that's a very simple way to say, like, I know for myself, like, I'll do the laundry, I'll do the dishes, I'll pick up around the house. Cause I work from home and have her seven years. And so people think that working from home on paper sounds way better than going to an office. And I disagree on so Many levels. Mostly because it's not what you think it is. And it is an endless array of distractions. Working from home is, like, the most. The worst place ever to do a lot of work. Now, unless you're super disciplined or you don't care about a clean house or whatever. But for most people, the environment that you're in makes a huge difference in how you're able to focus and get things done. And so for me, those micro tasks of cleaning my house give me a dopamine hit, because it says, I know the laundry needs to be done. I know the dishes need to be done. And when I do them, I get that same sense of accomplishment. And even though they are very tiny on the scale of things that actually matter. And so my day would be much better spent starting off doing something significant that actually moves the needle with my goals. And then at the end of the day, maybe in the evening hours, I can do things that are a little less critical but still important, like household chores. And so it's figuring out in a lot of ways, the puzzle of the calendar and kind of the Stephen Covey big rocks analogy. How do you get your big, important stuff scheduled so that you're guaranteed to get it done versus you find yourself just seeking distraction through any means necessary.

Yeah. So let's talk to the parents or maybe people that are going to be parents or have the desire to be parents. Cause I'll tell you, it changes. When I was thinking about the distractions, I was like, you have two children. You have two babies. I have one.

I will have two.

You will have two.

Second one's due in two months.

Okay, so by the time this comes out, you'll be either had the baby or about to have the baby, which is like a whole nother world of love and destruction. So when we're parents, gosh, the game changes so quickly because everything from, like, hearing the baby cry to working at home and maybe helping out our spouse and just being there. How do you create. Not blinders, but how do you create healthy boundaries? I mean, that's really what we're talking about here. It's not being a slave to our brain, not being. Not being a slave to the ticking of the boxes and the dopamine. How have you personally, man, managed this to where you hear a crying baby or your dog is scratching at the door and all these different things? Is there certain bright lines that you place in, maybe verbally to your spouse or verbally to your friends or in your calendar? Like, how does that structure work for You.

Well, I mean, if I take off my headphones right now, I can hear my dog barking in the other room. I put him in the furthest corner I can from the microphone. So you can't hear him. I can't hear him, but. Right. So my microphone's a fancy one, so it kind of blocks a lot of sounds. But like, he's the distraction, right? My little pug is awesome, but he's the worst thing in the world for interviews, so he has to go away. But that's a simple example of a boundary that I've set where he's got his treats and he's his little bed and he's put away so that I can do my work. And. And the same thing is true for my wife, who works from home probably half the week. And so when I need a focused block of time, which is what I call those, my F bots, that's the acronym I use, those focus blocks of time are incredibly valuable for myself, and my wife uses those as well. And so she works in her office in the house, and I work in mine. And when I need a focus block, I close my door and I put a little post it note on the outside the door that says fbot. So she knows this is my time and. And if she needs to come in, don't. Because I'm doing something that really matters and oftentimes it's a recording or something. And so what I want to be able to do is define that boundary, to say, you know, this time that I'm spending is like, it's my time and she has her time and I will not interfere with that as well. Now, these aren't endless blocks. It's not eight hours a day, but it might be an hour or two, you know, here and there throughout the day to guarantee some focus. Because we have to identify the things that are gonna distract us the most and. And then individually go through those distractions and figure out, you know, if my phone is bothering me, put on airplane mode like mine is right now. If my email bothers me, will turn the program off, or download an app like Freedom that blocks the Internet from you or blocks certain websites from you. And to make sure that, like those tendencies that we have to distract ourselves, we have something in place to say, I'm not going to be a victim to my own desire to just distract myself endlessly. Because you could spend all day being busy doing stuff and nothing gets done at all. And all that really means is you've been seeking distraction because we all do Even, you know, someone like me who claims to be this productivity expert, it's. I'm just as much of a victim this as anybody else. And I need the boundaries just as much as anybody else. And so I'm looking for myself, for every opportunity I can to guarantee the result that I want. And that means extraordinary focus is for me, the absolute best path there. And that means identifying if this is an issue. Let's go talk to my spouse in my, in my house. Let's talk to my coworkers if I'm in, you know, a co working space. Let's figure out a plan for all of us that allows for the time we need to do the things that we care about. And for most people, group work should be a defined amount of time. Individual time is often the most productive time for most people. And so you need to have guaranteed individual time and then some guaranteed social time to have those interactions. But it can't be this constant chatter because then nothing really ever gets done at all.

Yeah. Careers can be a moving target. Like so many people, I think it was millennials. Every two years, they either change careers or change jobs. Yes. So what you're talking about is beautiful. I love the sticky note on the door. I mean, that's like a thing everyone can do, right?

Well, it's like an on air sign, the radio station. Right. Literally, I've, I've almost bought one because they sell some you can actually have installed by an electrician in your house and they will. You can literally have a switch and just turn it on and the on air sign will go. I'm probably gonna end up buying that. But like, that's the fancier version of a post it note. But it's the same thing. It's an indication that says, like, you know, don't come in. I'm doing something important right now.

Yeah. So as people are shifting and they're going to different careers and maybe someone's like a data analysis person and then they go to be a sales consultant or they go to be in the media world. Gosh, it just feels like the target moves so quickly now. And I'm curious how you see the speed of life. Does it feel to you that in the past five years, life has sped.

Up 100% or 500% or whatever this number would be.

Why are we all. Everyone I talk to feels the same way. And it's not just because I'm a parent. It almost feels like time itself is squeezing and accelerating right now. What is that?

We have this really aggressive Pace for. I think technology is probably the greatest indicator of that. You can see the pace of technological evolution. I mean, I just got a new iPhone yesterday, and that's another example of I'm buying new tech because new tech is available. I bought a new app yesterday, too. Like, I'm like, I'm in this mode all the time. Of, like, I'm acquiring new stuff, I'm buying new things. I'm constantly looking for new things. And part of that is, you know, the job that I have as an entrepreneur and I run a business. I need to make advancements. But everyone feels this way. It doesn't matter what job you're in or what your career path is. We all have this same, like, cumulative sense of we're all in a hurry. Like, everything has to move right now. And I just. It's weird, too, because even as a guy who works from home, I'm not, like, downtown in the middle of a busy city, you know, with, like, hustle and bustle. Like, I'm literally alone most of the time. And. And I still feel that sense of pressure. And it's like this bizarre cultural shift that we've all made that says we want more, we want it now, and we have to move, and we're all behind all the time. And there's no such thing as downtime, because if it is, you're lazy. And if you watch Netflix too long, it means you screwed up today. Like, there's this. This really bizarre, messy. Honestly, like, an incorrect version of living, and I don't really know how to correct it culturally. I only know how to create boundaries for myself. And I feel like that's my only real, I don't know, direct action I can take to kind of counter what's happening.

It's wise because I think from an early age, I wanted to, like, change the world. I want to make the world a better place. And I'm reminded day and day again, I only can change myself. I can only be in control. Well, somewhat fleeting control of myself. And I'm curious if you feel like. Do you feel like we always teach what we most need to learn?

100%. I've done that my entire career.

How's that played out for you?

I view my job as group therapy. So what I'm doing is I am doing a podcast, and I will talk about a problem. It's my problem. I've got an issue. And maybe I found a solution for it, maybe I didn't. But I'm just sharing with the world the issues that I Have. And I do that through blogging. I do it through coaching. Like, I'll ask my coaching clients for help because I'm like, I know you hired me, but I have a question for you. Because everything that I'm doing is that kind of. I'm seeking solutions for my own problems. Like, for me to say, like, that I am a knowledgeable person about productivity is really to say that I struggle with productivity a lot, and I'm trying to figure out how to get better at it. Or if I talk about distractions all the time, it's because I'm distracted. And that is just an indication of what I'm working through. And I think a lot of us are doing that and is we're seeking these answers, and sometimes it comes through with us making a whole business around our own problems. But that's kind of what it is.

That's like me with wellness. So my greatest challenge and learning in life is wellness. And so I have a business where I talk about physical and emotional intelligence so we can live our life well. I mean, hello, like, bell ring. I feel like I am constantly learning, and I think that's the only way that we can really lead. I don't know the author, but it's this learning leader metaphor where it's like, instead of leading from the front, you're actually in the middle of the group and you're, like, leading as you're learning with everyone else. And I think that's why people love you. I think that's why your podcast has grown, because you're so relatable. It's like, hey, guys, I'm here. I'm teaching productivity. But I'm not perfect. I still have my struggles. I still have my stuff that I go through personally. Like, this has played out for you in a few different ways. You share with me that when your daughter was first born, there was IBS and sciatica and back surgery and sinus infection. Did this happen, like, all at the same time or was it spread out?

Yes and no. A lot of overlap there. What basically happened was that. So my wife and I went through fertility treatments, so we did IVF to get pregnant, both for our first child and second child, because that's our only way to get pregnant. And so when that hits. Fertility treatments are incredibly complicated. They are expensive, they are stressful. It is lots of questions with very few answers. It's a messy process.

Is it just waiting that makes it so stressful? The waiting time?

Oh, it's waiting. It's this sense of fear. It's the sense that this is not going to work. It's an endless process. I'll never be a parent. I mean, there's a lot of issues that go with it. And so for me, it kicked in at a time where it was a lot to handle. I wasn't prepared for it mentally, physically, emotionally. And so it hit me pretty hard. And so I wound up with panic attacks. I wound up freaking out on a number of levels prior to her being born. And then after she was born, things settled down for a bit, but then they didn't. And I thought that I had it handled and I really didn't. Sciatica kicked in, which is a stress induced, you know, your back tightens around your nerves and you end up with this extraordinary pain that for me wound up being a slipped disc and I had to get back surgery to correct it. On top of that, at the same time I was having back surgery, I was having these crazy IBS symptoms. So digestive problems, seeing GI doctors, all of this stuff that to me was like, here's a physical problem with a medical solution. Not realizing the whole time like, this is a stress problem, this is an emotional issue, this is inside. And I am, in some ways, I am the cause of all of this. And if I can change myself, I can respond differently to life and not have to be beat down physically by all this stuff. You could argue that a lot of this is there's physical reasons for it. But like, really, at the end of the day, I didn't have these issues until I did. And when I did, there were very specific reasons for it. And looking back at it now, it's pretty easy to pinpoint. But as you're going through a difficult season, it's really hard to have that outsider's perspective on your own world to see with your own blind spots to see where you're failing and not even knowing it until a consequence hits you. And it's pretty intense. So that was essentially my experience.

That's why it's a blind spot, because you don't even know. You don't know. It's like so in the dark that even with your greatest heart intention, even with everything that you know, you don't know what you don't know. So what was the pinpoint? You said you could pinpoint it. What was the pinpoint where you're like, oh, did you have an aha moment? Or was it more like a cumulative awareness?

It was an overtime thing. The first time I got that awareness was when I went to the er for a panic attack. And the doctor in the ER told me that I was killing myself. That was a wake up call. And that happened the year before my daughter was born. And so I was already in a pattern of working too hard, scheduling too much, pushing my boundaries, not sleeping enough, which is ironic because that's all the things I teach is how to go to bed on time, wake up early, dominate your day. I was dominating my day 247 for months that led up to a series of panic attacks that I caused. I could have slowed down, I could have made a different schedule. I could have prioritized my health, and I chose not to. And so going to the ER was a massive wake up call. After that, it was a series of figuring out, well, how do I live smarter? Because each time that I have these physical reactions, whether it's an IBS symptom or sciatica attack or whatever, it was this question of, like, what is really going on here and how do I live a life that doesn't cause these problems? And it was. It took about probably two or three years of going through this stuff before I was able to finally put some pieces together to say, here's a life I want to live that is going to be a little less stressful, a little more intentional, and just piece by piece, be able to add those things together. And so it wasn't just an overnight success thing, is just a cumulative effort of figuring out how do I live better and with more awareness. And it's hard, especially when you're going through pain. It's difficult to figure out how to navigate out of that.

It's crazy that somebody had to say, hey, Jeff, you're killing yourself for you.

Well, it's funny too, is that what I experienced is a common thing for men in their early 30s, which is exactly when it hit me. So this is a. Whether it's like a seasonal thing with like, you have a house and a wife and a know job or whatever. The thing is, like, men in their early 30s tend to get hit with similar symptoms. And sometimes those symptoms, you know, are fine, you deal with it. Other times it hits you with what feels like a heart attack. Which is what my issue was, is that I had a panic attack that felt like a heart attack that led me to getting EKGs and doctor appointments and all this stuff just to find out, actually I'm healthy on the charts, but internally, like, there is something really wrong here and if you don't correct it, you'll actually have a heart attack down the road.

Man, this is the science of psychoneuroimmunology, which is literally thoughts become things. And whether you're woo woo or scientific, psychoneuroimmunology is real. When we are constantly swept up in the default mode network, we're seeking for danger all the time. We're not breathing. We talked about this on your podcast. Like if we're not breathing, there's literally nothing we can do to calm ourselves down, to be focused, to be attentive, to be in our hearts. And so for you, you said it was this two, three year process. What was one of the most challenging things that you had to let go of or be honest about with yourself. And I'm saying this because, man, I can feel the people with us watching and listening. I guarantee you somebody is dealing with exactly what you're talking about because that's the nature of our world, especially here in America. So what was one of the things that was really hard to let go of or be honest with yourself about?

I think it comes down to the concept that we can do anything, but we cannot do everything. And as a type a highly caffeinated, go, go, go kind of guy, my tendency every day is to check all the boxes. Like that's what I want to do. Like my version of success for so many years was just how many boxes did I check today? And that is a lifestyle that's designed to fail. It's one's design for panic attacks because you can't live that way. That's not. It's just annoying after a while because you just exhaust yourself trying to do so much. So my biggest kind of lesson after all of this was how do I live a life where the things that matter get done and then I stop and the day is over and I allow myself the chance to breathe, the chance to slow down, the chance to just be present for a few minutes, a few hours at the end of the day. And that's a difficult transition if you're used to just pushing all the time. It's a different way of thinking about how your time is spent, about who you are as your identity, right? Like am I, am I no longer a high achiever? Because I stopped work at 3pm today, which is what I now do because my daughter's daycare gets out at 3:30. So my day ends at 3:30. I pick her up, we go to the gym together. I have some de stressing time there. I come home, I make dinner, I go to bed. Day's over, my workday is done at 3:30. That was never the case before this. I was working until 10 or 11pm like, that was. And you can't do that indefinitely. And so for me is just these awareness kind of epiphanies, these moments that said, let's identify specifically what my habits look like, where they're taking me, what changes I can make that are logical. These are not difficult to see most of the time. We just have to be willing to accept that, like, I can make these changes and get the results I actually need. And then redefine for yourself what it means to live a healthier life or.

Your parents driven to, ironically.

No, actually, I'm. I don't know where my drive came from, because if you look at my parents like they are, I don't know, average people. They're not like, psychotically trying to do too much all the time. Neither is my brother. Neither is, you know, my close friends, sort of as we grew up, we were kind of an ambitious crew, but I took it on a whole new level. And I honestly don't know where my personal drive came from. And I. I'd be curious to know what that was.

So when you look at the road ahead, it's so different than the one you walked because Dr. Said you were going to die, first of all. And then secondly, the road ahead involves, it seems like Jeff, more breathing, more emotional intelligence. Like, how have you understood what that even is? People throw this word around. I actually. I actually disagree. This is going to be a little polarizing. I disagree with some of the points in the original author, Emotional Intelligence and emotional intelligence 2.0, because I felt like the book actually had more of, like, a driving productivity angle to it. And for me, it feels like, tell me how you feel about this. Less productivity for the man who's built his life on productivity, or is it just a different form of productivity with more spaciousness?

Less is the answer. I mean, there's no doubt about it. It's the. Which I think really comes down to identifying specifically a couple of things that move the needle and letting go of the rest of it. So I'll give you a simple example here. You know, a lot of what I do is online business. And so I have a website, I've got a podcast. Technology drives a lot of what I do. And the world of tech is an endless parade of nonsense. I mean, it's. If you want to go down a rabbit hole today, you could spend your entire life reading blog posts after article, digging into the new tech here or there. It will suck you in. And I've Been sucked into that for years at a time, trying to figure out the next little iteration I can make here or there, learning. I taught myself how to code HTML and CSS and really dug into this stuff. And it's not required, it's not necessary for the work that I do. It's like, what am I doing? Why do I care so much? And it's catching myself in those moments saying I'm spending time on things that honestly do not have to happen. And in my second book, I define this as nonsense. That use that term very specifically mean that nonsense is anything you're doing that just never has to get done. And if you spend your life doing those things, you get the results of that time, which is probably not where you want to be or getting the results you expect to get. And so for me, I'm just trying to figure out how do I spend my time doing the things that produce the value I really want, not these, like, little tangents that I find myself in, rabbit holes. I'm down all the time because I just. Well, that looks shiny. Let's go there. Yeah, I can't live in the reactive, shiny mode all the time.

I watched this series on Netflix. I watched a couple episodes. Marie Kondo, she's like the organizational person. Do you know about her work?

Oh, yeah.

Do you like it?

I mean, it's really a minimalism perspective, right? You own the things that spark joy, you get rid of the things that don't. I consider myself to be a struggling minimalist, so I am always striving to have less, but I also like to have more. And so in my house, a lot of things come in, a lot of things go out. I'm like, physically, like, that's the stuff that I own. I'm striving for a sense of, like, a nice, happy medium where the things I own produce value. And if they don't, then they're out. And so, like, I'll give my examples. My studio here I rebuilt last year during COVID And so the actual technological, like, stuff that's in my office are specifically chosen. Like, I have these things here because they provide the value I need. And if I'm not actively using it, it's in my garage, stored away, or I'm going to sell it and get rid of it. Like, it's not going to stay in my life. And that's a process to go through, especially when you accumulate a lot of things over time. But the more intentional that I've been with my physical stuff, the more that the Spaces I live in every day actually do spark joy for me. They actually do produce that sense that I get to be here today, I get to experience what this is now. It's not a source of stress. It's actually the opposite. I feel this pull to say, let's go create today. Let's go be in this space and make things happen. And that's such a better place to be emotionally. And that drives me forward in a good way.

Yeah, it's like push versus pull. Like people that maybe have a career right now, Jeff, where they're not that stoked on their career or they think about their job and they're actually, they're pushing themselves to go to work instead of being pulled. Being, like you said joy, or Kondo talks about, sparked with joy. Is that what the road ahead looks like for you? And how can you give wisdom to somebody who wants to create that type of road ahead where they're actually being pulled into their life and pulled into their career, rather than like having to spark motivation and drive themselves and push themselves. It's just such a different come from.

There's kind of two sides of this coin. So there's the one that says that motivation comes after action, and there's the other that says you're going to get pulled into a future that's like almost like an otherworldly source, like you're being called to do something. And I feel like these are two forces in my life I'm competing with. So on the first point about, you know, your motivation comes after action, if you're trying to get physically fit and you're laying on the couch and you're overweight and you're like, I should go for a run. I should go to the gym. You're not excited about it. It's not like a fun activity. It sounds like torture sometimes. But if you actually physically move your body, the more you do that, the more you're like, oh, I'm. I like this. I'm good at this. Then the endorphins kick in later, but it's a delayed effect and you have to move your body for a while to get into that pattern. And what I have seen is that's true for a career, it's true for side hobbies, is that the more active you are in your life and the more motion you're creating, the more that energy is kind of built up. And then all of a sudden, because I'm going to the gym every day, I. I have new business ideas. I have more creativity around how My house is being organized. I'm more excited to go to my daughter's activity tonight. Like, all of a sudden, things are in motion, which I think is what oftentimes when you're stuck, when you're between projects or not sure what to do next, physically moving your body and going places and doing things and talking to people and engaging in life is what stokes all that creative energy that then allows you to make the next step. You don't have to know where you're going to be in five years, but you do have to have a lifestyle that generates ideas, that generates emotion and energy, because that's what leads to the next creative breakthrough. And so whenever I've been stuck, I know it's like, I should read a really good book today, Go to the gym today, right? Do activities that are going to get me going, and then I'll take it from there. My brain can just run with those. That energy, that foundation, without me just kind of wallowing in feeling stuck, which doesn't actually get you unstuck.

There's so much there. Rewind that and watch that again. Because so many of us get the good ideas in the shower. And I'm like, well, what's happening in the shower? There's water, which water is a very feminine energy. It's very cleansing energy. There's water cleaning away. You're moving in the shower. Like, that's why people get like million dollar ideas in the shower. Because there's energy moving, there's water moving. And by the way, if you guys don't know this, you need to be paying attention to how you drink your water. That's a whole nother podcast. But look at all the hidden. The Hidden Messages in Water is the book. I mean, it's fascinating. So the reason I'm saying this is because Jeff talked about movement and physical movement is one of them. But also, Jeff, like, there is a movement of the fluid in our spinal column through breathing. And I know we did an incredible. You're such an amazing host. We had an awesome podcast about breathwork on the 5am podcast. Have you used this in your life? How has breathwork been a part of your life? Is it something that you're leaning into? Like, how do you move beyond just the physical? How do you move the energy inside of yourself besides just physically?

So I know that you love a sauna as much as I do. I think I do. There's a sauna in my gym. And so what I do in the afternoon is I take my daughter to the gym. She Goes in her daycare, I go lift weights, and then I finish my workout in the sauna. And that's my time for breathing, which was never a thing before. I was never intentional with breathing until I made the sauna habit. Intentional. And so my time to get really sweaty and hot and gross and, you know, detox my workout is when I'm very intentionally breathing in a way that relaxes me, that allows me to really tap into just, I don't know, a quieter version of myself every day.

That's like.

Even though, like right now it's, you know, 10am and I've had one coffee and I'm kind of moving at 4pm tonight when I'm at the gym, I'm going to really slow the pace. And that really takes me down a few notches. To pair that with. I actually. I stopped drinking alcohol this summer. And for the first time my life, like, I totally gave it up. And I'm really glad that I did because it pairs me with this new focus on me being intentional with every single thing I'm doing. And a big part of that is how I breathe and intentionally when I breathe and what I'm doing when I breathe. And I feel like there's like a new version of me that's like emerging right now. And that's coming from this very intentional practice of saying, I want to give myself the chance to breathe properly, to detox, to slow down. And that's coming from these very simple practices. And it's a profound thing and I'm really excited to see where it goes.

I feel like my higher self. Bear with me. I'm gonna go a little woo right now, but I think you'll feel me. I feel like my higher self is watching both of us. And your higher self, we have these lower self and higher self. Maybe you could call it the 1.0 versus the 2.0. But we have this higher self version where we can we close our eyes and we visualize something ahead of us is so much grander, so much more balanced, so much more integrated, so much more powerful than we ever could be in this current moment. What do you feel like your higher self is pulling you towards?

A really good question. So I'm listening again to the audiobook from James Clear called Atomic Habits. And that book is just, you know, a very simple breakdown of what habits are and how they operate.

Have you gotten to interview them?

I did before, actually. I interviewed him when the book first came out. And so I listened to it two and a half years ago. And Doing it again. And I feel like there is a. What I feel like I'm being called to do right now in so many ways is to build better systems. And that plays out with daily habits, it plays out with health, it plays out with business, with finances, with relationships. That I am more intentional with what I do every day and that what I do every day matters and that if I take my time more seriously and build systems that can over time generate the results that I want, that I am being kind of pulled into a better life now, specifically, what that's going to turn into, I don't even know yet. I just feel really like this is the work that I need to do now for me is to reshape my systems and my habits so that those things can produce more creative energy, more possibility. I don't honestly have an exact plan of where it's going. I just know that what I'm doing now just. It feels like I'm in a zone that I want to stay in because it is producing results already.

I have this sense that all roads lead to self love. And I've said this probably hundreds of times. So the audience is like, Josh, we already know this, but are you doing it? But are you doing it? I mean, that's really what we're talking. It's the same thing with habits, it's the same thing with productivity. So Jeff, when you work with people, and I'm sure you've worked with some of like the most high performing men and women in the world, people that are running like massive companies that have extreme pressure and deadlines like a backpack filled with weight, is it always come down to how much they love and care about themselves in order to stay disciplined? Not only to the things they must do, but to the love they give to themselves, the spaciousness they give to themselves. Does it always lead back to in some way how much someone feels worthy and loves themselves as to how they will actually stay accountable to the things they promised they'd give themselves?

I call that self respect. I guess that's what the term I've used for years for myself, which is that the people that let other people run their lives don't have enough respect for their own, their own being. And that those who are in touch with, you know, I have value, I can bring value, I have a purpose in this world. I can do something of meaning today. Like those people tend to do better work. They do more work, they do higher work. And it's. I don't exactly know where it comes from, these practices and habits can generate more of that. But there is a clear delineation between people who are care about themselves and know that if they're going to do good work, they have to be at their best every day. Right. I can't run a million dollar company if I'm also dying inside. Like, it's. That's not a system that generates results, it's one that's going to lead to bankruptcy and trips to the hospital. Like, we're looking for solutions that are. Yes, I have to be at a good place myself to give to others, to build systems, to build companies, to do awesome things. So the very first and only important work is me fixing me. And then all of a sudden everything else can flow from there. I also call this in the work that I do now, a health first approach I'm looking for in my world of productivity, of getting things done, it's me first, it's my health first. Because then when that's in place, man, I can just do so much. And when it's not there, I can't do anything. If I'm struggling today to even breathe well, or if I have bad allergies today or my sciatica kicks in again, like, I'm not going to get work done that day. But if those things are handled and I've got the energy and creative just opportunity, then I'm going to take it and things are going to happen.

Well, Jeff, it's wise, but if somebody that runs A Fortune 500 company listens to you and takes your advice, they're going to have to actually look in the mirror and see the paradox. Because the paradox is so many CEOs drive companies because they don't love themselves, they don't feel enough. And they're really coming from having to prove themselves, which is honestly what creates sometimes, not all the time. Skyscrapers. Skyscrapers, in my opinion, are built by people that want to do big things, want to do great things. But if you really looked into their motivation, it's not really a pull, it's a push. And it's a push because of something that happened in childhood, some kind of trauma, some kind of parental thing. Have you seen this play out with clients as well? We've done probably over a hundred shows with different emotional intelligence experts, whether it's past life regression or generational trauma or trauma in general. Has this been something you've explored either on your podcast or with clients, how trauma shapes our motivation, how trauma shapes our pull instead of our push?

I was talking to my wife just recently about something very similar to that. My wife's a professor and she has doctoral students and she's working through programs to get their doctorate in education. So they're trying to become principals of schools and superintendents of districts. And these students are a prime example of that because a lot of them are being pulled or I guess they're pushing themselves from either difficult backgrounds. Yes. Lng neighborhoods, schools that are struggling. And so they feel this, like, really existential, like just drive to do really good work. But their actual personal motivation, I would argue, is coming from the sense that, like, I'm trying to get through. Through this today and I can't figure it out. So I'm just gonna push in every direction and almost to the point of just being annoying in every way because I'm just like, I'm gonna get my doctorate because my resume looked better and I'm gonna go to get this job title because it makes me look better. And you're like, what are you doing this for? Like, what is happening here? And I see this play out with these. There's certain people that just. It comes to them because they're just, they're meant to be there. And there's others who are striving and struggling and failing, fighting. And you're like, you are swimming upstream. You are pushing the wrong direction for the wrong reasons. And when you see that play out, it's such an obviousness from a third party perspective. But when they're in it, they don't see that, like, you're. You're pushing for the wrong goal or the right goal, but for all the wrong reasons. And when you reshape your motivation, when you know what you're there for and it's. It's more intuitive, it's more aligned to who you are, then it's not a struggle. Then all of a sudden it's like, I'm meant to be here. Let's do this thing, not an internal fight.

So how does somebody improve their intuitive faculty then to know what's right and not swim upstream?

They can't be overwhelmed. They can't be struggling 24 7. I think a lot of these people are just too busy. They don't have time to even ask the right questions, to even answer them.

Yes.

If you're always trying to do more, when do you stop? When do you pause to even ask a good question? Like, there has to be space for that. And if there's not, you can't, then you're missing the strategy element there. It's like someone who Works five jobs, and they're working really hard and get paid minimum wage at every job. Like, you're working harder than anybody else, but your results are going to be a lot lower because what you're. The output of what you're producing isn't enough. If you re strategize and shifted gears, you could actually work a lot less and make a lot more.

Yep.

And there's. It's those types of shifts that you're looking for. It's how do we re strategize to do the things that have a much bigger impact? And oftentimes it's not difficult. It's just a different choice. Just going to pivot from one thing to the other.

And what happens sometimes, too, and I use this mirror analogy a lot, is somebody will, if they want a different life, if they don't want to struggle and swim upstream and feel like they don't have any time to think or breathe or feel, a man or a woman will have to look at who they chose as their partner, because their partner can actually subconsciously fortify the old self, the 1.0. And the partner may not always want the 2.0, the one that's more balanced, the one that's not addicted to the roller coaster of stress. Like, have you seen this play out with clients? How do you address that?

That's a really tough one because that is so important. Like, I'm very fortunate that my wife is on board with all of my crazy.

Oh, look at you. You're so fortunate. So she loves your productivity. I mean, she loves your sticky notes, all that.

Well, I just did a speech recently, and she attended it and watched my talk. And she came back, she took notes while I was talking, and she was like, I want to discuss these ideas with you. And, like, dig into it more. Like, she actually likes the stuff I teach, which is. I'm so fortunate for that, because it's totally possible she could not care at all or think it's stupid. And if she was not on board with my vision of my future self, we would be screwed. You know, I made a big pivot 10 years ago to go vegan, and this was a big kind of like, not just my dietary choice, but, like, there was a lot of ethical discussions going on, a lot of, like, big dietary shifts I was making. And when that took place, like, she could have said, like, you're a weirdo. I'm off. I'm not the hippie that you're becoming. No. Right. But instead, tofu and leave, Jeff. Right. Exactly.

Get out of here.

So we had all these conversations that ultimately led to us being a lot more aligned as a couple. And I think if you don't have that alignment, it is like trying to swim upstream. It's like trying to run a marathon with weights tied to your ankles. Like, you just. It makes everything harder. And I'm not looking to make things harder. I want to figure out how to, you know, break those chains and actually do things that are a lot more like, natural and designed to be happening. And if you're that the partner you have is on board with you, it makes everything, everything easier. But to. I don't know how to craft that. I'm not a relationship expert. I don't think. I don't.

Yeah, I don't think you can source something like that. I mean, maybe this is why there's compatibility. Right. Like some people with this conversation, I love. There's so many layers and so many fractals that connect. It's so easy to be like, oh, I'm going to reductionize productivity. I'm going to reductionize how to be successful. It don't work like that, people. It doesn't work like that. Like, so many of these layers have to be unpacked and, and consciously learned and integrated and processed before we can actually have the dream life. And the dream life, I believe Jeff, is where we're at peace. We have just, you know, if we look at Lady Liberty, there's more peace than not, right? So we're still being pulled towards something we want to create. We're still productive. We still, as you've talked about before, we still have this power to say no to the things that we don't want. But there's not necessarily some kind of template for this. I think this is like a soul unfolding process where we gather the ingredients, we apply, and then what we talk about on this podcast, every single episode, is we embody. We embody the things that we've gathered and we've applied. And that embodiment process, I think, gives us more peace and that peace can be trusted. You know, I can be really powerful from a place of peace, but if I'm trying to white knuckle something and I'm trying to, like, get things done all the time, people can feel that. Like you said in Dr. Tessa's class, where people are like they're swimming upstream, you can just kind of tell that some people are there for the right reasons and some people are there because they're trying to prove themselves. Can you speak to the person right now, just any emotional intelligence or any wisdom that you're feeling from all your experience, somebody who feels like they're stuck in that loop of trying to prove themselves, trying to be productive for the sake of, like, executing and being worthy, like, whatever wisdom you feel like you can give to them, drop it on them, Jeff. Because I feel like that's a lot of people.

The first thing I always do with my new clients is ask them, what can you drop? Like, what can you let go of? Because I feel like there is every single time you look at someone's calendar, their task list, their job. Sorry, the jobs that they're working through, what they wind up with is this what I call, like, a puzzle of the calendar. It's a big mess. There's stuff everywhere. And I look at that, I say, look, what of this stuff can just go away? Like, what of this stuff? Are you saying yes to that? We can just drop? Because what you're experiencing, this struggle, this fight to say, like, I'm going to prove myself is this addiction. It's very addicting to want to fill the space. And I think the white space on the calendar, the openness, the opportunity to say, I'm not going to have my day be filled with just, like, one meeting, then the next and the next and the next, and I have to go do this, and I have to go to this other, you know, appointment over here. Like, instead of always trying to just say more, is the answer what you're really asking? The question is, how do I create the space that I need so I have the time to think, the time to breathe, the time to re. Strategize, the time to figure out who I really am and what I really want. When I left college, my very first blog that I launched was called Graduated and Clueless, because that was exactly how I felt.

And.

And that was what I could recognize in myself, that I was missing something and looking for some answers. And so all I spent for those first couple of years was just reading books, listening to podcasts, you know, trying to talk to smart people, trying to tap into what am I missing? What are my blind spots? What else can I learn? And this, like, insatiable, you know, thirst for knowledge and this desire for personal growth is what led to me actually getting the skills that I needed. I Acquiring the knowledge that I needed to make those pivots that really got me out of those scenarios that I didn't want to be in. But it really took that desire to say, like, I want to learn. I want to be a student again, I want to really think about difficult concepts and really be willing to acknowledge in my life where I'm failing with the fears that I have and tackle those things head on. Because it's only when you're willing to do that kind of hard work that you have the chance of a breakthrough, the chance to actually get to the next side. But if we're going to run from our fears or we're going to, you know, just distract ourselves with busyness all day, well, then you're never going to be able to figure out what you really want because you're just going to be ultimately reacting to what other people tell you is important for you. You know, someone will say, you need this extra degree. You need this extra resume bullet. You're not going to be able to have the opportunity to actually ask the question, is that true for me? Is that on my path? And I can much more easily reject opportunities today than I used to. If someone used to email me and say, jeff, you want to do this next project? I would just jump on it like, yeah, let's do it. Because I have no idea what I'm doing. So may as well versus now. I can say that's not for me. I have a better sense of who I am, of where I'm going, of what I'm trying to do, and the more clarity I have on that, the easier it is for me to then say yes to the right things. That will really move the needle down the road. Whether it's a health goal, a business goal, doesn't matter. I'm much more aligned to what I know is who I'm becoming, and that's what I want more of.

I love what you're sharing a lot because I think everyone, whether single or in relationship, can relate the demands of the modern world. I think for as far as productivity is concerned, they haven't been more intense. I'm 41. I've never seen people try to juggle so many things as now here in 2001. And especially if you're hearing this in 2002, I'm sure things will be even faster. So, Jeff, like, if people are just really wanting to take action, not from a frenetic place, not like, what do I do, Jeff, if you're in that place, well, you should actually. You get to go read Free Time Formula. I think that was a really amazing book. So we'll link that here in the show notes. Free Time Formula is awesome. That's how you can actually cultivate the space for you to breathe. But if somebody's looking at their life and they're taking inventory, Jeff, and they're like, wow, I've really paid some price here. I've really paid some prices for being productive, how do you see the hidden prices paid for our modern world productivity?

How do you see it? What do you mean?

How would you even describe what those are like? So what are the top three, or what are a handful of prices that people pay to be productive in the modern world?

We sacrifice so much. We give up our autonomy, our freedom of choice when we are saying yes to too many things. When we're trying to be productive for the sake of productivity, we sacrifice our health, our time, our relationships. Like, we are giving up our lives for ultimately a prize that we don't want. And I think that what we're really trying to align ourselves to is what once we have clarity on what it is that we want, because we know it gives us the value we're striving for, our time is gonna be spent differently because we're not trying for that same stuff that just feels so fleeting. I mean, a simple example, you can have Facebook on your phone and check it 18 times a day, but is that gonna give you the value you want with your time or is a different activity? I mean, I literally had a news app on my phone that I deleted and replaced it with the Calm app, because I would rather look at a meditation app on my phone than some news headline. Like, a simple decision like that is reshaping how I think it's reshaping what my priorities are, and it's allowing me to not say, like, I'm going to have these. These consequences of poor time management, poor alignment to my goals, poor alignment to who I am as a person. Like, we suffer a lot if we don't have these things in order. And a lot of it is just. It feels like we are victims to the world, but we don't have to be. Like, we have a lot of power. Like, I end every episode of my show saying, you have the power to change your life. And that's what I really believe. Like, we have this ability to change, but we have to start with this awareness of where we are and acknowledge what's actually happening before we can ever make real change stick long term.

I feel like that right there was a huge mic drop. We will definitely take what you just said, put it into a nice piece of content, and serve it to people who are sitting at a table of overwhelm and stress. So thank you, Jeff, for Coming on the show. What an awesome conversation. And you know, 2017 actually was when you were on. Can you believe that? 2017. 2017 is when. That was when Freetime Formula came out. 2017.

Yeah, right around there.

So from 2017 until now, with everything that we're experiencing, forced mask wearing, lockdowns, potential vaccine passports, stress, I mean, the accumulation of insane sanity that we are experiencing as a collective, how do you see wellness now compared to 2017? Like, how would you define wellness in what you've learned over the past almost five years?

Well, it's funny because I think that I see a lot of stories about Gwyneth Paltrow and like the work that she does on Netflix. She has this really like, woo woo sense of wellness.

And I think that the average series.

Right, the goops thing that people are looking to someone like her and saying, well, I think that health in the next decade is, you know, getting really in touch with like going to Peru and hanging out in the wilderness. And I, not that I don't like Peru, I think it's awesome. If that's going to be your form of wellness, there's a lot of value there. But we're not going to fix our lives with, you know, a week long vacation in a foreign country. We're going to fix our lives where we are now. Wellness has to start where you are. And it has to be this awareness that we can do a lot more with where we are today. There's an interesting book that I read from. Actually one of, it's a long story here, but one of my friends from, from childhood who wound up falsely accused of a crime. It was in jail for a long time and then was released later on because I found out he didn't do it. And his time spent in prison was time spent asking himself, what can I do with this space and time that I have? And he used it to improve everything from reading a ton of books to working out like a madman. Like he had so much personal growth time in his supposed lack of freedom. I think that we, we view our own lives oftentimes as, as prisons. We feel like we're trapped in our own making of these schedules and responsibilities and obligations. But we have the power to make these shifts. And if wellness is going to start anywhere, it starts with where you are right now. And then it has to be this acknowledgement that, okay, I can do something today. Well, let's do something. And then tomorrow maybe a little more, but will begin today.

Jeff, amazing. Thank you for being on the show. JeffSanders.com is the website.

Yes.

The Free Time Formula is the book that I personally read, which I loved. And is there anything we missed, Jeff? I mean, gosh, you know, productivity is a huge iceberg. I feel like we chipped the tip. So Free Time Formula is the great book that you guys. That's a great starting place, but anything that's wanting to come through, anything that. Anything where you've been interviewed where people haven't asked you around productivity that you really feel like needs to be expressed.

Email is not awful. People hate email and think it's this vicious, awful monster. I view it as an amazing business tool, and I love it. And I spend a lot of time in it, maybe more so than I should. I only say that because when I view email, like I view any communication tool that leads to the relationships I'm trying to build. And so my intention with anything I want to do in business is forming those relationships. And I have certain, you know, strategies, apps, tactics that I use. I don't view my email as this awful monster that ends up with 100,000 unread messages that has to be tackled like some sort of awful force. Like, it's just another part of my day that gives me the chance to connect with people in a way that will lead to results once. So I think it's about reshaping the tools, reshaping the strategies to figure out, do you have the things in place in your life that are working for you, and if they're not, you rethink them, reframe them, and change what they are. And that means getting from your calendar, email to your task manager. All of these things should be assets, not these awful things I have to use to get what I want.

Yeah, there's no liability in emailing as long as you're practicing hygiene. You talk about that in the Free Time Formula book, which is amazing. Jeff, thank you for being here. Until Jeff and I see you again, we're both wishing you love and wellness. We'll talk to you soon. Sa.